#pest | 2022-12-14

Logged on 2022-12-13 19:24:34 asciilifeform[5]: in AT still sees 'no packets received' from unpx

10:55

at least i'm not getting any addrcast messages from anyone

10:56

and you've changed your ip at least once in the past few months, because i remember updating it

~ 20 minutes ~

11:17

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-09-18#1013124 afaik this is the last release

11:17

Logged on 2022-09-18 20:15:50 awt: 9971 with mcrypt, potential prod loop fix, ac disabled by default

~ 27 minutes ~

11:44

phf: aha iirc disabled by default currently; and to add to headache, of course old vers dun even relay addrcasts

11:46

phf: does your pestron proto eat addrcast ?

11:51

awt

Yes, addrcast disabled by default. Need to randomly space out the broadcasts.

11:52

a ty awt

11:53

asciilifeform, it logs packets that are not otherwise explicitly silenced ("ignore" is the only message type that's like that)

11:53

a

11:55

it keeps them around as ephemera, so i can inspect them and maybe live repl a real response, and, having done, that crystalize that into concrete code.

11:56

( for the nat drill mechanism to work, both ends gotta support 'prod' and 'addrcast', and the peer they have in common has to relay the 'addrcast'. and, on top of this, if 1 or both are in 'symmetric nat', the old mechanism aint enuff; need the 'hammer' described in new draft)

11:56

phf: nifty

11:57

trb node operators to be required to register as money service providers

11:59

i don't for example rebuild backlog, i just (prod) and then (GETDATA (RED-PACKET-BROADCASTNETCHAIN last-red))

12:00

so i've been doing it like that for couple of weeks, until i wired prod into process-packet mainloop, now it does the second step automatically. i still manaully (prod) on boot :>

12:00

getting awfully close to http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2020-12-17#1026649

12:00

(asciilifeform) 2020-12-17 asciilifeform: say this yr they ask 'do you hodl'. next 'please list addrs'. and 2022 -- list privkeys.. will list ?

12:01

billymg: lol, and dun fughet that mp3 users required to pay royalties to fraunhoffer, and torrent users, required to pay mpaa

12:01

phf: atm afaik just about erryone doing some variant of 'hand-cranked addrcast'

12:02

and (prod) is just (SPOOL (MAKE-RED-PACKET :type :PROD …))

12:03

i'm doing that old school lisp machine development style thing, where "handcranking" is "code you haven't written yet, but strongly aligned with"

12:03

aaha

12:04

phf: recall how pestronics started with 'let's see if can lightly patch an old irc relayer'

12:05

asciilifeform: my guess is it won't pass as is, precisely for that reason (everyone will then know they have no power to enforce). better for them to re-propose it every couple of years to create fud, shake weak hands, corral users into "regulated wallets", and promote some controlled opposition figure as the hero who defe

12:06

billymg: per asciilifeform's pov, worst thing that's happened to bitcoin to date was its 2010s 'legalization' and the 'institutional' 'law-abiding' vermin crawling in and pumping/dumping

12:07

the worst thing that imho happened to bitcoin is the original 16k spike, but it's probably driven by this legalization

12:08

aaha

12:09

subjectively, i feel like the 16k spike was the reason why tmsr ~really~ went under

12:11

was the moment when everyone but mp looked at their hodl and realized that it's nowhere near large enough for "to the moon", the time put into tmsr projects suddenly was weighted against substatntial, life changing sums

12:14

well, at least it was the case for me. the amount of time i put into btcbase and vtools for them to be basically "open source" (i.e. unpaid work for kommunity, that came more with abuse and responsibility, than even kudos)

12:23

( oblig )

12:29

and see also re: a moar fundamental boojum.

12:29

dulapbot

(asciilifeform) 2021-11-17 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-17#1066486 << there's imho a quite serious systemic defect in bitcoin (and no, i'm not aware of any possible 'fix') -- [http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifefo

12:31

right, a combination of "early hodls" and the fact that the most effective means of legitimate bitcoin, that is without goxing or similar, is to put excess fiat into it

12:33

phf: as in, spike to ~$16k at the end of 2017 resulted in "oh shit, this thing's got legs. i should be grinding to stack more coin, not working for free for republic"?

↖ ↖

12:34

billymg, yeah that's a very concise and proper way of putting it

12:35

but i'm thinking i wasn't the only one in that boat (judging by the frequency of ascii rants about "day job" and "where the money at", which mostly started around that time)

12:36

and i don't think it was tmsr only either. why sell pizza for satoshis just to participate in bitcoin economy, if can go work for goldman sachs and make fat stacks, and then buy btc with that

12:38

imho that spike basically destroyed "bitcoin economy" overnight, hippies that bought acid of silkroad2 suddenly turned into hodlers

12:46

i always imagined there was some link between republic and desire/ability to earn coin. as a lurker/outsider i didn't fully understand how but assumed something like step 1) join republic, become lord; step 2) ... ; step 3) profit

12:47

partly because of mp's alleged 100k btc stack, thought "his inner circle must be doing well"

12:50

billymg, this is a point of dispute, but at least for me the hodl aspect was the least desirable element. the way i remember things is that lords were supposed to be independently wealthy (in coin, dollars or free time), and the goal was to build novel parallel economy first, benefit from it in wordly possessions second.

12:56

the early catechisms, before hodl, were novel ideas about pgp contracts and corporations, counterparty relationships mediated by strong crypto, novel system of trust. there's a reason it's the most serene republic, the previous serene republics being venice, genoa and lucca

13:00

the idea, again because this is what attracted me to tmsr therefore that is what i saw, was to build infrastructure for the future of business relationships, the way republic of venice is a foundational blueprint for western business world

13:04

that was my main appeal too, a parallel economy and wot being stood up so to be ready for the inevitable fiat world collapse

13:05

and it appeared to me that there was a moat being built around this tmsr economy, and i didn't want to be on the wrong side of it

13:07

from asciilifeform's pov, the 'lift' was a source of frustration strictly : 'dun matter worth a shit whatcha do, even if you invent antigrav, still will make for pale shadow of 'was there when exch rate was 1$' '

13:07

i also don't think that bitcoin is that interesting without tmsr and it's outright boring as a hodl

↖ ↖

13:08

approx as interesting as e.g. ftp (today, rather than in golden age of w4r3z ftps)

13:11

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018338 << from asciilifeform's pov, 'stack coin' was rather tedious proposition, in that 'could spend 100% of salary for yrs, and still not make appreciable + in even modest stack', again as result of the 'lift'

13:11

Logged on 2022-12-14 12:33:39 billymg: phf: as in, spike to ~$16k at the end of 2017 resulted in "oh shit, this thing's got legs. i should be grinding to stack more coin, not working for free for republic"?

13:12

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018349 << but _tmsr_ economy never existed, was kind of like state of the art rocket, that didn't even fell on launch, was just continously being worked on

13:12

Logged on 2022-12-14 13:05:19 billymg: and it appeared to me that there was a moat being built around this tmsr economy, and i didn't want to be on the wrong side of it

13:12

*

asciilifeform did some 'stack' but purely as side effect of the piz crackpottery and mp's 'i wanna buy anuther bmw' episodes

13:13

phf: quite accurate analogy

13:13

'let's build mars rocket, at some pt surely someone will come up with some fuel'

13:15

well, the fuel part is i guess the ambiguous and disputed part, and it's step 2 in billymg's "tmsr earning coin plan"

13:16

mp's final opinion, once everyone was removed, was that the entirety of tmsr was useless, and therefore not funding it was the smart thing to do

13:16

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018343 << afaik the only folx in that period who took in ~palpable~ coin were 1) mp, from operating pyramid 2) handful of folx who played in same

13:16

Logged on 2022-12-14 12:46:48 billymg: i always imagined there was some link between republic and desire/ability to earn coin. as a lurker/outsider i didn't fully understand how but assumed something like step 1) join republic, become lord; step 2) ... ; step 3) profit

13:18

for the most part, mp not spent his coin, but rather 'paid' people with the jingle of his purse, like hajja nasreddin

13:19

i'm not personally privy to that, mostly because i guess never wanted to be paid in coin jingle, didn't take on any "once it's running the money will come" projects

13:21

although one of the projects in retrospect might've been profitable, it was supposed to be a kind of btc onlyfans

13:21

*

asciilifeform took on, tho not from any strong notion that 'money will come'

13:21

it would've had at least one customer!

13:22

there were some # of projs where 'we have 1 customer' (i.e. mp) 'and here's anuther' (also mp, different glove) but no 3rd

13:23

elementarily, a room fulla paupers + 1 moneybag aint 'an economy'

13:23

but for example how much coin did diana actually saw? i had an exchange with her my last days, on her channel, the logs for which i believe are lost, since she seemed to have perged the logs from her blog.

13:23

but rather moar resembled those 19th c. british bridges where suited gentlemen threw copper coins into the mud below the bridge to watch the 'mudlarks' (hobos) dive for'em

13:23

and to her abstract "one ought to answer why tmsr in their heart first" i answered with "well, you're actually being paid large sums of coins". she was not pleased :>

13:24

phf: if one believes the s.mg communiques (still up on mp's fossilized www) can count that coin

13:25

phf: prior to s.mg, 'mpoe.pr' (hanbot) also had salary in coin, was also in statements on mp's www

13:25

these 2 were afaik the only known 'unprincipled exceptions' he made re 'dun pay people a wage'

13:25

􏿽i guess one has to go through the backlog of s.mg? reason why i brought up diana is because in her recent blog post where she reflects on loss, she make it seem like the 60btc or whatever which is s.mg budget holding whatever, of which 30btc is diana's (i might have the numbers exa

13:26

􏿽ctly wrong, but the point stands), are lost.

13:26

so i guess there was salary, but then there was also company shares

13:27

*

asciilifeform knows for certain only re s.nsa piggy, which was operated in precisely this style, i.e. all keys strictly in mp's pocket

13:27

right, you also have insight into it? i guess the s.nsa budget of whatever it was 10s of btc was never actually ever moved?

13:28

iirc ~20 coin were used up ( for hosting, and coupla times to reimburse asciilifeform when bought parts for protos )

13:28

outta total of iirc ~300

13:29

i guess it was mp stake in coin to your stake in sweat equity. but since mp was managing coing and doing reimbersement, in order to move any of your company's alleged coin you had to come to him

13:29

*

asciilifeform thought it was rather strange where , in the episode where mp asked asciilifeform to extract & liquidate forkcoin from mp's hodl, and asciilifeform requested that same process carried out for snsa piggy, d00d refused

13:30

not your wallet not your coin :D

13:30

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018351 << i agree that a btc with warren's 'kyc trb nodes' makes no sense (it's just a reich checking account with extra steps), but assuming this never comes to pass then i still view it as interesting. just as torrents still continue to work and i continue to use them

13:30

Logged on 2022-12-14 13:07:39 phf[awt]: i also don't think that bitcoin is that interesting without tmsr and it's outright boring as a hodl

13:30

phf: correct, afaik all of his ops were conducted this way. didn't even seem peculiar at the time, 'naturally he won't put it where sumbody could walk off with it'

13:31

lol, that explains a lot of things

13:32

fwiw the hodl ref'd above (where at the end he said 'of course i've moar, but let's stop here, is enuff') summed to ~3k.

13:33

already asciilifeform started to suspect alcohol problem, in the end he had a fit re the small commission (mutually agreed!) asciilifeform was charging.

13:33

summer of '17.

13:34

d00d chronically had genuine trouble remembering what he had agreed to mere week prior.

13:35

*

asciilifeform started out trying to show him how to do this chore w/ own hands, but he even answrd 'wai not you do it, make a commission'

13:35

see i thought when you said in the past "paid with coin jingle" you meant it figuratively in a sense that s.nsa pay outs were meager, less than in any case than the demands of the lifestyle you're accustomed to, but there just weren't any to begin with

13:35

phf: not 100% 'with jingle', d00d was entirely willing to occasionally do 'barrelhead' transaction

13:35

'i need an auto, wire to xxx' etc

13:36

ahaha

13:36

but this was for barrelhead trades, rather than 'sweat for snsa'

13:36

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018327 << just about every other bill also started with language to skewer self-custody, removed in amendment process, fwiw.

13:36

Logged on 2022-12-14 12:05:48 billymg: asciilifeform: my guess is it won't pass as is, precisely for that reason (everyone will then know they have no power to enforce). better for them to re-propose it every couple of years to create fud, shake weak hands, corral users into "regulated wallets", and promote some controlled opposition figure as the hero who defe

13:37

not that it's particularly reassuring

13:40

phf: ~work~ was 'paid in jingle'.

13:40

( unless you were diana / hanbot )

13:42

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018332 << correct in my case. I went and got my biz sold, was meanwhile grunting out a linux distro for the guy and receiving this for my trouble.

13:42

Logged on 2022-12-14 12:11:54 phf[awt]: was the moment when everyone but mp looked at their hodl and realized that it's nowhere near large enough for "to the moon", the time put into tmsr projects suddenly was weighted against substatntial, life changing sums

13:42

(trilema) 2019-11-25 mircea_popescu: seems to me today november the 25th we've not moved inch one away from nov 12th, though it's been two weeks. i don't expect anything substantially different will occur in the remaining two, so i'll just conclude that for whatever reason trinque's not the man for this job.

13:42

signpost: if in e.g. 2010 'it is nao prohibited to run btc noad!', mpaa tasked with ferreting out violators, arguably would've been moar interesting times, perhaps steady 100bux or whatnot exch rate, actual honest work re stego & network health, and no goldman pumpers

13:44

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018344 << fwiw I made the guy aware I had a growing PAYMENTS BUSINESS for christ's sake and zero flowed my way

13:44

Logged on 2022-12-14 12:47:45 billymg: partly because of mp's alleged 100k btc stack, thought "his inner circle must be doing well"

13:45

would've netted him an actual return on any shares bought too.

13:45

life goes on, but this was about the time I decided to reallocate effort, yes.

13:45

signpost: d00d had all the cocaine he needed, etc. and ran tmsr the way boy runs an ant farm, strictly for entertainment, 'watch'em scamper for crumbs', is asciilifeform's pov re the denoument years

13:46

for wat he needed 'return'.

13:46

the game's fun for those meant for the game

13:46

in either case, he had the right to do what pleased.

13:47

did seem genuinely surprised re the ants walking outta the ant farm via hole

13:49

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018351 << I agree; without repair to culture, novel monetary instrument means very little.

13:49

Logged on 2022-12-14 13:07:39 phf[awt]: i also don't think that bitcoin is that interesting without tmsr and it's outright boring as a hodl

13:49

those that think money's at a level beneath culture have spent too much time in the corporate empire.

13:50

with the kind of 'friends' btc has, not needs enemies, lol

13:52

absent a tmsr producing businesses (which require either capital or approx 10y of sweat) you have sequoia, andresson, et al owning "fintech" as tentacles of the reich.

13:52

but anyhow, we're here not there.

13:53

signpost: from asciilifeform's pov, there simply wasn't the capital to even have sporting chance of any interesting mega-proj taking off.

13:53

(once you substract mp's jingling but tightly-closed purse)

13:53

*subtract

13:54

sure. I've never been opposed to producing works for fun so long as nobody's cracking a whip.

13:55

e.g. asciilifeform offered to help bake silicon, set up pirate radio net, etc. but would've req'd actual spend. and unsurprisingly d00d wasn't interested

14:01

pretty sure we had this thrd at least 1ce, but -- to the extent mp had political/megalomaniacal aims, was interested in carrying'em out only to the extent it could be done by folx 'doing tricks for peanuts'. (or, hypothetically, by other moneybags, somehow politically aligned -- but none turned up)

14:04

to be charitable, without other moneybags showing up, world ain't changing.

14:04

the moneybags, near as asciilifeform can see w/ naked eye, like 'world' precisely as it is.

14:04

or as you said

14:04

Logged on 2022-12-07 11:55:31 asciilifeform[5]: mp for his part was visibly (and sympathetically) frustrated at presiding over band of clockmakers rather than pikemen. but if wanted the latter, oughta have config'd his time machine correctly.

14:05

yup

14:07

d00d wanted shaheeds, but neglected to invent a suitable religion that'd offer the req'd 72 virgins

14:10

phf: upstack, was this the diana piece in question ?

14:13

may also be something fundamentally broken about revival/memberberries movements.

14:14

*

asciilifeform not looked at diana's www for rather long while, and found the above a difficult read, is rather like reading e.g. catholic apologists, extreme case of 'limba de lemn'(tm)(r)(mp), one'd need some kinda dope to fully make sense of the text

14:14

signpost: wat are/were memberberries ?

14:15

"reboot old europe in bitcoin" for example.

14:15

a

14:16

not that it doesn't appeal to me, but it might be rather like fighting a riptide. the sea of transmayo slaves will move as it does without even noticing ya

14:16

that aint the problem imho

14:17

problem is e.g. 'let's reboot sound money' 'but how to prevent goldman from issuing unbacked paperized obligations in it' '..'

14:19

the answer is the sovereign kills them for it, and this won't happen while common law and pretend democracy of transmayo slaves.

14:20

well ~whole appeal was 'dun need million-man army, they kill themselves' somehow

14:20

probably the sovereign who does so doesn't even need bitcoin.

14:20

witness the ~0 interest of crowned heads in bitcoinism.

14:20

(why, when running own kingdom on printolade precisely like washington does)

14:21

some of those same are piling up gold atm. plenty of interest in sound money, just not at the slave layer.

14:21

imho there was (still is, theoretically) useful direction to press, to test orig. hypothesis -- suppose trb worked as well as e.g. warez torrent, from strictly technical pov

14:21

possibly those same have use of BTC if the "multipolar" thing holds a while and chinese don't end up permission-coin-ing world trade.

14:21

even this, mp wasn't partic. interested in achieving

14:22

for that matter, 'btc economy' how-to aint any kinda mystery.

14:22

recipe's right there.

14:22

not even req's shaheeds. only folx with some modicum of surplus.

14:23

dulapbot

(asciilifeform) 2022-01-14 asciilifeform: operate, if you will, 'half-duplex' economy.

14:23

but nooo, erryone simply wants to 'ride hodl lift'

14:23

entire stack's still worth building as post-collapse tool, not of everything, but of fiat empires, which can indeed happen.

14:24

*

signpost just holds no delusions about coming to power himself in such a scenario

14:24

the correct time to build up btc economy is ~before~ ~nobody has a surplus and focuses on 'naked survive' imho

14:25

work on oddball new tech req's material surplus + leisure.

14:27

yup

14:32

recipe 'make sumthing useful in yer spare time; sell it for btc' impeded by, imho : 1) the difficulty of making anyffin useful enuff such that sumbody'd be willing to part w/ btc for it ;

14:32

2) the difficulty of coming up with btc

14:32

3) difficulty of transacting, operating dysfunctional softs, evading censors & snoops

14:33

(3) was/is addressable, if anyone gave enuff shit, and asciilifeform burned MBs of bw describing how (and even supplying, gratis, various moving parts for subj)

14:34

(2) could be addressable if 'moneybags' weren't cocaine-addled morons as a class

14:34

(1) ditto

14:36

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018465 << that's my point about the hodl culture

14:36

Logged on 2022-12-14 14:32:23 asciilifeform[6]: recipe 'make sumthing useful in yer spare time; sell it for btc' impeded by, imho : 1) the difficulty of making anyffin useful enuff such that sumbody'd be willing to part w/ btc for it ;

14:37

speculation kicking in before functional economy destroyed even the potential for the economy

14:38

and consider that tmsr was extreme take on btc implications the effect that it had on us, necessarily had a more pronounced effect on elsewhere

14:41

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018437 << yes, ftr i find the text to be entirely coherent. i think your personal animocity towards diana clouds your perception of her texts

14:41

Logged on 2022-12-14 14:10:14 asciilifeform[6]: phf: upstack, was this the diana piece in question ?

14:43

phf: fwiw asciilifeform rather liked diana. (who was afaik the only 1 to e.g. actually read all of, at the time, ffa, and even wrote 'crib sheets' for others)

14:43

imho diana simply picked wrong ship to go down with.

14:43

the women obeyed, which in-world is precisely what they were commanded.

14:44

aaha, was aboutt say

14:44

'not bug, feature'

14:46

􏿽that reading is too postmodern for my taste, where we condermn people for their beliefs and alliegences. kind of like bringing up that someone's nazi before a conversation with that person even has a chance to take place. early tmsr could be accused of mp apologism, by somebody lik

14:47

􏿽e kako, even though our positions were internally consistent. how much validity there is to the position ought to be explored separate

14:47

fairnuff

14:48

my read of that post is she's taking what she built for eulora and doing what she likes with it. and good for her; she should.

14:48

point was, asciilifeform was never able to properly hate diana -- possibly nonmaskable irq from sex organs, nfi. but per asciilifeform's pov, behaves 'like ant removed from anthill', maybe after n yrs can think like a human again

14:49

aaha

14:49

that critique has to be born by all, not just her.

14:49

folx actually baking whatever goodies on own volition imho a++

14:49

all larped, all failed, life goes on

14:50

larp only assignable in retrospect anyway. maybe some other timeline we're all sitting at the first congress of tmsr.

14:50

well we're back in the argument from where my renewed participation in this venue started :> how much value there was to mp's approach, how much credit is his exclusive for establishing this approach, etc.

14:51

*

signpost will shut up a while as he wants to hear what phf has to say for its merits.

14:52

the folx for whom their work was 'ticket to mp lottery' -- walked. who remains -- presumably has 'biological itch in arse', curiosity. but asciilifeform can only speak for self there; fwiw not 'skipped beat' after 'tmsr kaput'

14:52

i still think that the log + blogs was a brilliant way to distill the essence of structured communication and adapt it to novel technology

14:52

'intelligence amplification'(tm)

14:52

and ~personally~ i kind of dig the high culture "letters from M--" style that came with it

14:52

fwiw asciilifeform's ~entire interest in kompyooting.

14:53

there was 'sumthing for erryone' (or just short). some -- req'd an mp, some no

14:53

*

signpost quite agrees

14:53

Logged on 2022-12-07 11:06:38 signpost: the hallowed status of the logs, and putting them at their right place, among a peerage.

14:55

i notice what kids these days call "code switch" when talking about tmsr business, my sentences start taking, with many assides and subcomments, a victorian literary shape, so as to, in the shortest way possible, communicate with highest precision all necessary thought, so as not insult esteemed reader with too low of s/n.

14:55

*

asciilifeform for instance , interested in logical conclusion of cryptological wot, i.e. 'new internet' where 'freedom of association' via structured relat.s of trust. but this aint a seekrit.

14:56

*

asciilifeform on other level, interested in ~physical~ 'new internet', but this is 'bridge too far' atm

14:56

and when reading diana's blog posts, i'm reminded of that particular style, since it rarely has an opportunity to present itself in the modern, decadent world.

14:57

*

asciilifeform must bbl for a spell

14:57

this kind of interwoven identity authorship in a peerage atop hypertext logs was/is a technological superpower, yes.

14:59

􏿽asciilifeform, you're like an ultra-technologist in my victorian fantasy, maybe as you're not as interested in inter-human aspect of what tmsr proposed and where mp was the strongest, you reject that element as the least important. "this technological wunderwaffen i've tinkered in

14:59

􏿽my laboratory over the weekend will solve the problem of precise communication once and for all, so as there will be no confusion, when communicating amongst men, henceforth!"

15:03

􏿽http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-14#1018493 << when i retire from my worldly responsibilities i'll sit down indeed to compose the authoritative encyclopedia of tmsr inventions, the marvelous gpg contract, the mechanised web of trust, the forum that is mediated by the electronic

15:03

Logged on 2022-12-14 14:51:40 signpost: will shut up a while as he wants to hear what phf has to say for its merits.

15:03

􏿽telegraph technology! the future that could've been

~ 1 hours 3 minutes ~

16:07

jonsykkel

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-12-12#1018239 << worx as speced in html draft

16:07

Logged on 2022-12-12 16:35:05 asciilifeform[jonsykkel]: phf: addrcast & prod, but atm not fully worx ( partly b/c not erryone on latest ver. of blatta (nfi whether all worx in smalpest) ) partly on acct of symmetric NATs and 'hammer' not yet exists in blatta

16:13

phf: the 1 imho key win from 'press on technologies' is that they have a shelf life (unlike group of excitable shaheeds) and thereby can accumulate

16:15

e.g. lispm patiently waited for 3 decades; p2p mostly waited, 'frozen in amber', for 20y; rsa's been waiting since '77 and still waits

16:16

that position is self-evidently false, excalibur is entirely useless without an arthur to wield it

16:16

whereas 'gang of shaheeds', once becomes clear to'em that there aint anyffin ~novel~ to do (and esp. if goaded by charismatic fuhrer to throw themselves at enemy mg for ~0 reward) eventually goes home.

16:16

phf: excalibur precisely illustrative of the phakt tho -- it was able to wait for arthur

16:17

who, yes, req'd

16:18

i mean, we know where you stand on this subject, rehashing the same arguments over and over is kind of silly

16:18

even bitcoin still 'waiting', and likely will continue (enemy was able to smother the fire to an ember, but not put out)

16:19

but your arguments on the subject are always full of holes! "genera vs personality cult" genera always wins particularly if you opposite to some small time personality cult. but even there "genera still waits" and no indication it won't do so indefinitely

16:19

phf: was in re: earlier item. asciilifeform partial to efforts that at least potentially cumulative/multigenerational, rather than 'write in sand'.

16:19

Logged on 2022-12-14 14:59:24 phf[awt]: 􏿽asciilifeform, you're like an ultra-technologist in my victorian fantasy, maybe as you're not as interested in inter-human aspect of what tmsr proposed and where mp was the strongest, you reject that element as the least important. "this technological wunderwaffen i've tinkered in

16:19

politicking -- 'writes in sand.'

16:20

and indeed 'if no arthur', excalibur may well 'wait' until vanishes under volcanic strata.

16:20

*

asciilifeform not alleges otherwise.

16:22

*

asciilifeform simply observes that politicking w/out novel tech not historically gives interesting result.

16:22

that's not "simply", that's an opinion statement, that just happens to coincide with your preferred opinion, presented as self evident!

16:26

without right kind of politcking can't produce galleons, sometimes it's the case of "too much politicking" like in feudal japan, but in other cases possibly that not enough. the oft cited example of disney executive herding animators

16:28

but also what's interesting, greece as the cradle of our civlization arguably produced a lot of interesting results, in thought and practice, but not just no novel tech, mocked and opposed technology as a less-than-manly enterprise

16:31

and unfortunately in the baby with bathwater department, i think that mp's point re "engineers" was fundamentally correct. mp was in fact often times correct, the way RT is correct about us politics: if you choose the right kind of truth, can easily wield it to support your argument, while keeping the truth true

16:35

􏿽so one could make a pro technology argument by pulling a once in a lifetime technology like transistor, or marine chronometer, OR make a pro politicking argument by pull the heights of western culture. and then use either to support either "polishing a lense" that results in a life

16:35

􏿽time dedicated to one or dozen very polished lens and nothing else OR encourage one petty tirant's dysfunctional tendencies

16:39

both directions are lacking, and the ~humor~ of my original statement, about the victorian technologist, is that attempting to solve communication problems with a technological wunderwaffen is as much a folly as trying to build a technology wunderwaffen through slave beatings

~ 34 minutes ~

17:14

phf: aint wrong, in either direction one can easily walk straight into own arse and never emerge.

17:15

*

asciilifeform fwiw not 'indifferent to people-talking', hence wai put effort into trying to come up with tooling for subj, rather than disappearing into a verisimilitude-esque walk into some abstraction

~ 2 hours 52 minutes ~

20:07

lobbes

asciilifeform: at the risk of sounding like a dingleberry, I think you (with laserlike precision I might add) just misunderstood the punchline of phf's victorian technologist analogy

20:07

lobbes

feel free to dingle my berries if I'm wrong. (I just smoked a bunch of weed so I'll go back to read-only mode for now)

~ 27 minutes ~

20:35

lobbes: asciilifeform not telepath, and not infrequently misunderstands argument

20:36

pretty sure that understood phf's tho ( imho -- entirely reasonable admonition against '1nce the rockets go up, who cares where they come down, that aint my department, said wehrner von braun'(tm)(r)(lehrer) )