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← 2022-08-21 | 2022-08-23 → ↓
11:55 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-21#1011252 << “jordan peterson, the mastermind behind american trumpism, and trump’s number one advisor”
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11:55 bitbot Logged on 2022-08-21 21:48:18 signpost: phf: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-20#1011250 << what's your sense of the stature of Dugin in Russia?
12:01 phf long time ago (i.e. in the 90s) dugin was one of the philosophers who acted as a kind of julius evola to fascist italy, he was one of the many avant guard thinkers attempting to give an ideological framework to the then post-collapse russia
12:06 phf for example, him, eduard limonov and yegor letov founded national bolshevik party, which was as much arthouse as it was a genuine political movement
12:07 phf yegor letov specifically was a frontman of a punk band (for lack of better term, because it's not really western style punk, more like heavy take on bard music, with heady lyrics) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XG7JRvtsh1U
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12:09 phf and limonov was a poet and a writer, so you can kind of imagine the kind of people this organization would've attracted. men who wear turtlenecks and discuss political future of the nation at cafe while chain smoking cigarettes
12:12 phf the parellel to the american culture would be people like boyd rice (who?) or (pre-woke) church of satan, where it's in part larp, in part genuine expression of some kind of position, in part men's group, in part… etc
12:20 phf so people like that generate larpy ideologies, that at different time might be aligned with the political needs, or with some popular movement that is otherwise unfullfiled. one can usually ask a question "what is dugin up to these days" and then he's like back to earth christian larper or pan-slavonik imperialist, and the
12:20 phf re's reams of writings associated with his current position
12:24 phf humourless people, like splc, will then comb their history for damning quotes, to condemn them as whatever convient X, "dugin is a fascist" (wait wasn't he a socialist like 15 years ago?) "dugin is an imperialist" (wait wasn't he a back to earth closed border separatist 5 years ago?) etc.
12:26 phf but since he's a philosopher, and a wellspoken educated man who speaks fluent english, he's also likely to be interviewed by western media, an average russian will probably go "who?" if you ask him about dugin
12:28 phf the idea that he's some kind of idealogue of putin's regime is laughable, and he makes no sense as a target of assassination attempt
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12:34 phf “Car bomb kills daughter of 'spiritual guide' to Putin's Ukraine invasion - Russian media” CNN
12:37 phf this is silly, and we're fully in post-truth world
12:47 phf oh i get it now, it's straight up propaganda: dugin has been arguing some kind of pan-slavonic imperialism past decade, and since kremlin explicitly denies imperialism as intent, by painting dugin as a regime's ideologue, one can attribute whatever dugin's quote to kremlin, even when there's no connection
~ 1 hours 27 minutes ~
14:15 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-08-22#1113248 << i came to view this behavior as particularly kind of displacement activity. it's a combination of one of the later threads between diana and mp on malleability of computer artifacts and an old copypasta from “ivan chesnokov” about ak-47
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14:15 bitbot (asciilifeform) 2022-08-22 asciilifeform: this kinda thinking continues to perplex asciilifeform . wai make n-th aol? there is already over9000 centralized aol-style chats.
14:15 phf WHY YOU WANT RAIL FOR KALASHNIKOV? IS NOT GOOD ENOUGH AS PROCURED FROM IZHEVSK MECHANICAL WORKS? etc. the punchline in that pasta is RIFLE IS FINE. YOU FUCK IT, IT ONLY GET HEAVY AND YOU STILL NO HIT LARGEST SIDE OF BARN. GO TO FIRING RANGE, PRACTICE WITH MANY MAGAZINE OF CARTRIDGE. THEN YOU NOT NEED DUMB SHIT PUT ON SIDE
14:15 phf OF RIFLE.
14:15 phf https://m1-garand-rifle.com/ivan-chesnokov.html
14:15 phf notice that there's nobody actually on pestnet! which would be an equivalent of “go to firing range, practice with many magazines”. but if with ak one can put a flashlight, and a rail and then basically exhaust the masturbatory activity, with software the malleability means that one can perpetually “attach rails” o
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14:15 phf r plan to attach rails, or discuss planning to attach rails
14:22 awt Who should be on pestnet?
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~ 15 minutes ~
14:37 phf awt: crtdaydreams is making these points on #a, while he obviously has a working pest instance. ascii's logtron has been out of sync with the net for 22d and he's been away for as long. i'd say there was a kind of attempt at a liftoff a month and a half ago, which sputtered. a worthwhile participation in pest imho would be
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14:37 phf a) to make concious effort to prioritize pest over #a in personal communiccation b) further put blatta through paces by running it c) write own clients.
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14:39 phf from that perspective crtdaydreams talking on #a about wiring pest into xmpp or whatever is representative of /something/ and i tried exploring that something in the thread above
14:42 phf at the very least people who are talking about pest ought to be actively participating in pest. if nothing else then to discover that perhaps they don't want to participate in pestnet, or have more realistic perspective on what needs to be improved.
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~ 33 minutes ~
15:16 awt http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011280 << Indeed. In that case the question is then why is nobody here? I can't see at this point what IRC has that pestnet doesn't.
15:16 bitbot Logged on 2022-08-22 14:42:34 phf[awt]: at the very least people who are talking about pest ought to be actively participating in pest. if nothing else then to discover that perhaps they don't want to participate in pestnet, or have more realistic perspective on what needs to be improved.
15:18 awt I guess maybe you already answered that - more fun to attach shit to the ak than to practice at the range?
15:19 awt Alternatively, maybe there's nothing imortant to discuss?
15:20 PeterL awt: the one thing IRC has is that you don't need to talk to anybody to exchange keys, you just point your client at asciilifeform's server and start chatting
15:21 PeterL I wonder, if he turned off duplapnet, how many there would show up here?
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15:21 awt PeterL: certainly but that wouldn't prevent those of us already here from using pest on a daily basis
15:27 billymg speaking for myself, i've been quiet lately because i don't have anything new or relevant to discuss. been mostly focused on irl endeavors and distractions
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15:28 billymg agree 100% that those with pest clients already running should be 'dogfooding' it
15:29 PeterL can you expand "dogfooding" ?
15:29 billymg if pest was a corporate project i guarantee use of slack and all other chat clients would be banned for the teams working on it
15:29 billymg it means use your own product
15:30 billymg the idea being if there are shortcomings or desired features you will discover those via your own real-world use
15:37 billymg pest oughta be spammed on twitter/*chan/etc also, it's mature enough that people can start using it (inb4 "why don't you do that" -- yes, i probably will start doing that at some point, after sorting irl affairs)
15:43 awt The p2p space on Twitter rn is all about keet and nostr.
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15:46 phf i suspect there's multiple "whys", it's summer, #a is friendlier to casual banter, pest both protocol and extant implementation necessarily have rough edges, which means interacting with platform is deliberate effort, etc.
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15:50 phf irc retranslator or all-commer station, all of that needs to be implemented, and there ought to be some kind of incentive to do it, like for example because “the action” is on pest net
16:01 billymg imo this is a valuable insight. can think of pest like any social network, where popularity is determined by the quality (or at least "draw") of the content ("where the action is"). online forums don't come and go because of their underlying technology or UX
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16:04 billymg and "popularity" is weapons technology
16:04 bitbot (asciilifeform) 2022-05-11 signpost: tricking all the meatsacks into attacking the same point in unison is mighty technology; I'm not going to arrogantly shit on it.
16:04 crtdaydreams http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011286 << seems to forget that needs alternate comms for initial key exch
16:04 bitbot Logged on 2022-08-22 15:21:08 PeterL: I wonder, if he turned off duplapnet, how many there would show up here?
16:06 phf crtdaydreams, i kind of think issues like that ought to be discovered, rather than reasoned. or rather there's limit to reasoning, unless of course it's the goal in itself.
16:06 crtdaydreams phf: I'm not sure I follow.
16:07 crtdaydreams You mean an in-the-field instance of someone actually butting up against an issue where can't actually exchange pest keys.
16:07 phf yah
16:08 crtdaydreams Point was, in that instance of dulapnet shutting down, how many would reach out to ascii for a peering key over email?
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16:08 crtdaydreams Or anyone else for that matter.
16:09 crtdaydreams But once again, that remains in the scope of theory.
16:10 phf crtdaydreams, yeah that's my point about pragmatic. we can build the fort first and then figure out how to attach rope ladder to it
16:11 crtdaydreams phf: aha
16:11 phf i don't think email is at all a practical solution
16:12 crtdaydreams but to address the elephant in the room; is this even the purpose of pest?
16:12 crtdaydreams To be a public forum, that is.
16:12 phf but imho there are other problems that are immediately obvious: how do you for example support the "vex usecase", i.e. a casual user that's not going to proactively go through solving the peering problem, and would rather just drop out entirely (or i suppose connect to dulapnet until the very last moment)
16:14 phf crtdaydreams, i evoke, ye old from cause rather than to purposes. and that's kind of the point of this whole thread, how are /you/ planning on using pest?
16:15 phf i want vex rants to be part of pestnet, unrelated to abstract questions of "is it a public forum", so maybe i build a web interface that i brought up some time ago, so that the guy can connect, post his rasta videos and such
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16:16 phf but as it stands, this is the most conversation there's been on pest in two months, so maybe that also ought to be factored into the various considerations: what is even the purpose of pest in general? considering that people with both know how and experience of running pest stations seem to prefer to converse on #a
16:18 crtdaydreams I'm not sure to be honest. I just think there's a lot to learn from interacting with you folx, even if I never get to know any of you above a repor level (there's a high bar for entry :P). But hell, I might aswell just read logs. It's quite evident by now that my contributions are quite limited, perhaps I would be in my be
16:18 crtdaydreams st interests to change that.
16:21 billymg phf: tbf, activity on #a has also been at a minimum during the same time period
16:22 billymg and it does seem like a handful of users have switched more or less completely over to #pest
16:24 PeterL I've pretty much completely moved to #pest, not that I have ever been a very high volume user
16:26 awt For me, the old forum (#bitcon-assets -> #trilema) was of interest as a constant stream of new concepts and revisionist history, fueled largely by trilema and loper-os articles.
16:27 phf billymg, there's a slump, but there's also definitely bifurcation. occassional drive by comment, or a vex stream, or some "hello, i'm still alive" ping will go to either, and necessarily splits the attention
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16:28 awt And I hoped pestnet could be a place where discussion could continue uncensored. Though really #trilema and #bitcoin-assets was never censored.
16:29 crtdaydreams phf: Is it inherently a p2p problem? i.e. you don't allow randoms to dc you on IRC, part of that is nettiquite and part of that is "idfk who you even are?" how can that be bridged on a platform that in essence, is ~strictly~ that?
16:31 phf crtdaydreams, i don't think it is. for one existing protocol doesn't mandate it
16:33 billymg crtdaydreams: can't speak for others but when a network is this small (dozen or so users) i wouldn't mind peering with just about anyone from #a
16:33 billymg imo anyone here, at this stage, gets credibility points simply for being here (not that those can't then be revoked in the future)
16:33 phf not like peering is "friends forever", can as easily unpeer :p
16:34 phf but also there's been plenty of conversation on how to potentially establish a toilet station, where all hearsay is artificial, and instead of coming from other stations is actually just web interface or whatever
16:34 * crtdaydreams has be under this impression since first peered, infact only dc'd ~2 people in the entirety of time in #a and #p and not without permission first
16:35 phf so if you want to hear vex rants peer with webtoilet station or whatever
16:35 crtdaydreams phf: possibly in order before toilet would be multichan support
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16:36 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011265 << makes sense, ty for the explanation. it seemed to me that someone was reaching for whomever they could hit, and apparently missed even that.
16:36 bitbot Logged on 2022-08-22 12:28:44 phf[awt]: the idea that he's some kind of idealogue of putin's regime is laughable, and he makes no sense as a target of assassination attempt
16:38 phf crtdaydreams, sure, but also why. not like you'll have a sudden influx of people dying to have a conversation with us. it'll be the same usual suspects, adlai and vex, and maybe bb and other people who might resurface. i mean "webtoilet, ban X" is 2 lines of code
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16:38 phf gtg
16:38 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011296 << I've definitely been getting my fill of summer. I also get quiet when I'm grunting out a piece of work.
16:38 bitbot Logged on 2022-08-22 15:46:24 phf[awt]: i suspect there's multiple "whys", it's summer, #a is friendlier to casual banter, pest both protocol and extant implementation necessarily have rough edges, which means interacting with platform is deliberate effort, etc.
16:38 shinohai http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011295 << I'm already blocked by the keet.io folks for the unpardonable sin of asking "where is source?" "We can't release yet because reasons, use it anyway it's seekrit!"
16:38 bitbot Logged on 2022-08-22 15:43:47 awt: The p2p space on Twitter rn is all about keet and nostr.
16:38 phf or rather brb
16:39 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011298 << there's some uninspected "democracy decides what is true" in here, seems like.
16:39 bitbot Logged on 2022-08-22 16:01:51 billymg: imo this is a valuable insight. can think of pest like any social network, where popularity is determined by the quality (or at least "draw") of the content ("where the action is"). online forums don't come and go because of their underlying technology or UX
16:40 signpost as far as immediate, practical usefulness goes, decentralized warez "site" remains top of my list for pestnet applications.
16:40 awt ^ yes
16:41 signpost and I don't think we've even scratched the surface of what it means to have structured messages within a shared, decentralized log.
16:41 crtdaydreams http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011338 << tru, that and any folks running around with a hate boner would've turned #a into liquidshit long before now
16:41 bitbot Logged on 2022-08-22 16:38:18 phf[awt]: crtdaydreams, sure, but also why. not like you'll have a sudden influx of people dying to have a conversation with us. it'll be the same usual suspects, adlai and vex, and maybe bb and other people who might resurface. i mean "webtoilet, ban X" is 2 lines of code
16:42 * signpost can see himself publishing string->IP mappings, warez payloads, blog posts, w/e into same.
16:43 PeterL decentralized dns replacement?
16:44 signpost yeah, something like that, while references to items outside pestnet remain interesting, which'd be quite a while.
16:58 billymg signpost: valid point. first and foremost i see pest as defensible territory designed to keep out heathens and agent provocateurs
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16:58 bitbot (asciilifeform) 2022-05-17 asciilifeform: the pill is to have own territory, and keep'em out.
17:02 billymg but i was also thinking about your insight re: the technology of "aiming the meatsacks" at $target and how that might be achieved
17:03 billymg in my head it goes vaguely something like: 1) promote pest, 2) critical mass of interesting discussion occurs on #pest (viewable in logs www), 3) heathens load up pestlogs.com while taking morning shit rather than twitter/4chan/andrewtateyoutube, 4) profit
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17:05 signpost just pausing over here to think through what I want to say about it.
17:07 signpost we're headed for a world where structure is collapsing, food scarcer, etc., right?
17:07 billymg seems that way, yes
17:12 * signpost doesn't see *any* human who can prevent that crash. not presidents, not anyone assembled here.
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17:15 billymg signpost: so correct strategy is no longer "aim the meatsacks" but instead simply protect self and wot while watching the collapse?
17:16 billymg as in, if you can survive, you win
17:16 signpost making a correct call on what to do in this circumstance would be the bet of all time.
17:17 signpost (and of course, little things break through and become big at exactly that kind of time, when the incumbent falters)
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17:20 * billymg feels the same way, and suspected part of the reason for the recent quiet was everyone here internalizing/dealing with this in their own way
17:21 signpost yup. my signature's still affixed to a declaration of my personal sovereignty.
17:22 signpost it can be rightly said that the scope of that "sovereignty" is infinitesimal.
17:25 signpost whatever I may be, the better world to inhabit is the one in the direction of the greatest men's striving, the world *made of* that striving.
17:38 signpost re: why strive, hell, I like living. it's pretty good.
17:50 signpost because I like living, and because my life relies upon centralized systems which are breaking or likely to break sooner than I feel like dying, seems reasonable to want to lift as many of those needs onto decentralized systems that will at worst survive, at best thrive in collapse.
18:01 signpost http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011358 << seems to me that what aims
18:01 bitbot Logged on 2022-08-22 17:03:51 billymg: in my head it goes vaguely something like: 1) promote pest, 2) critical mass of interesting discussion occurs on #pest (viewable in logs www), 3) heathens load up pestlogs.com while taking morning shit rather than twitter/4chan/andrewtateyoutube, 4) profit
18:02 signpost *what aims the meatsacks is feeding them, and that's it.
18:05 signpost wave-of-meat has its place, but I'd rather have the defense distributed guys in here, folks teaching el salvadorean abuelitas bitcoin, etc.
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18:05 signpost imho this was always the objective of TMSR, as illustrated by the failed weev episode and others.
18:06 signpost "sane" people are deplatformed every day. once this thing's a viable alternative it oughta be aggressively promoted to those folks, who then bring their horde of normies.
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18:07 signpost it's why I like the warez idea; it tidily bundles together what one needs for decentralized publishing of w/e.
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18:08 signpost "I want to efficiently distribute this byte-array I just produced among my frens, and them among their frens"
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18:13 billymg signpost: that's what i was thinking too in terms of who, ideally, *participates* in pest (right now defense distributed and the bitcoin missionaries seem to default to twitter/telegram or whatever new trendy thing), the masses would just read the logs (like they read and u
18:13 bitbot Logged on 2022-08-22 15:43:47 awt: The p2p space on Twitter rn is all about keet and nostr.
18:15 billymg last year i had a twatter account, was eventually suspended and i didn't bother creating another after that
18:15 bitbot Logged on 2022-08-22 18:06:25 signpost: "sane" people are deplatformed every day. once this thing's a viable alternative it oughta be aggressively promoted to those folks, who then bring their horde of normies.
18:16 billymg there's no point to those platforms, if you don't keep the discourse within the "invisible fence" then you're banned
18:17 * billymg never even touched any of the obvious ban-worthy topics, not entirely sure why banned. mostly just urged people to withdraw from exchanges because 100% of them are usg-owned
18:23 billymg signpost: but yeah, my idea wasn't "onboard reddit to #pest", but rather onboard the personalities they follow
18:24 billymg they can set up their own loggers and publish to their own websites. like a 24/7 continuous podcast, in text form, with only people they invite
18:25 billymg and can say whatever taboo shit they like and never be deplatformed
18:25 signpost yup, I think that's worth building.
18:26 signpost importantly, not only say things, but sell things.
18:27 signpost "I am such-and-so identity and here are my wares."
18:28 signpost when one of us gets killed for facilitating the sale of a brick of aluminum, pop the champagne.
18:31 billymg yep, developers fair game now
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~ 56 minutes ~
19:28 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011380 << updoot
19:28 bitbot Logged on 2022-08-22 18:08:36 signpost: "I want to efficiently distribute this byte-array I just produced among my frens, and them among their frens"
~ 37 minutes ~
20:06 signpost phf: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=jtQP << here's where I'm at on the CL rewrite, doesn't work yet.
20:06 signpost I've either fucked something up in inner-encode or decode, grunting through it with tests
20:12 phf first usecase for file sharing will be in-pest pastes :>
20:13 signpost mhm!
20:16 phf what's the reference document for the theory part?
20:18 signpost https://cs.nyu.edu/media/publications/TR2002-833.pdf
20:19 signpost https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/~petar/papers/maymounkov-bigdown.pdf
20:19 signpost https://pdos.csail.mit.edu/~petar/papers/maymounkov-bigdown-talk.pdf
~ 2 hours 11 minutes ~
22:30 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-08-22#1113295 << the point is not "ascii man bad": you've been answering threads in #a and generally using it as your primary communication platform, a behavior that _necessarily_ contributes to de-emphasis of pestnet, whether or not there are good reasons for it
22:30 bitbot (asciilifeform) 2022-08-22 asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-08-22#1011277 << asciilifeform took for 1st time in many yrs 'vacation', to carry out a physical experiment (will elide details, not interesting to readers, guaranteed) which ended in crater, demoralizing. in the course of which, lol, contracted current ver. of covidiocy. intending fwiw to get back in biz this wk.
22:35 phf e.g. there's been a lively conversation on pest today, but your last active engagement at the moment of my answer is very attentive response to gregorynyssa's personal confessions. an external observer who might want to engage with asciilifeform is therefore disincentivized from attempting pestnet participation. in fact if
22:35 phf one wanted your attention, one would be encouraged to remain in #a
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