Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-09-16 | 2018-09-18 → ↓
01:09 deedbot http://bimbo.club/?p=13 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 9/05/2018
~ 2 hours 44 minutes ~
03:54 ave1 I'm also working on a thin networking layer for Ada (using direct system calls in inline assembler). I got stuck on some inline assembly details and once that was resolved I got stuck on the whole select/epoll/kevent support and so forth. So at this point, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-16#1850668 applies.
03:54 a111 Logged on 2018-09-16 16:35 mircea_popescu: honestly, FEWER "this is my fork design" would be way better than more. http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/07/basini-unique.jpg and all that.
04:00 ave1 I'm aiming at a small library with support for UDP, TCP and UNIX sockets with direct calls to 64bit x86 and 64bit arm plus C. So far UDP + asm 64bit x86 is done.
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04:03 ave1 Also no UNIX sockets yet, I was reading the documentation and came accross how linux now supports "abstract" unix sockets which have no equivalent on the file system. Pretty big WTF all over, it's implemented by having a string start with a 0 (zero) byte.
04:05 ave1 In other news, some lulzy drama underway in the Linux kernel camp; https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CA+55aFy+Hv9O5citAawS+mVZO+ywCKd9NQ2wxUmGsz9ZJzqgJQ@mail.gmail.com/
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~ 33 minutes ~
04:38 diana_coman ave1 hey, that would be very useful! but honestly, why not say it earlier?
04:40 diana_coman gah, null terminator and zero starter and what next
04:41 ave1 well, I started this about 4 weeks or so
04:44 ave1 Yes, I though that bsd sockets where some sort of standard, but it seems it has warths all over.
04:45 ave1 For example BSD expects a 1byte length field in the socket address structures (which is then not used as the interface already has a separate length argument)
~ 21 minutes ~
05:06 diana_coman arguably it helps if others know what you are working on - perhaps one can help at some point or at least not duplicate the effort, that's all
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05:06 diana_coman ave1> I'm aiming at a small library with support for UDP, TCP and UNIX sockets with direct calls to 64bit x86 and 64bit arm plus C. So far UDP + asm 64bit x86 is done. -> mind publishing somewhere this part then?
05:13 ave1 No problem and will do...
05:28 diana_coman looking forward to it
~ 17 minutes ~
05:45 diana_coman lobbes, esthlos, hanbot, ave1 - do you have something against using categories on your blogs? I find well-defined categories to be really helpful in finding stuff but on your blogs everything is in the "Uncategorized" category
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06:00 ave1 aha, all my older posts are still uncategorized, will do!
06:09 ave1 now for the well-defined part, this I will have to work on...
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06:20 diana_coman ave1, the basic thing is that it's a proper hierarchy (so each post in one (sub)category and not in 10)
~ 1 hours 22 minutes ~
07:42 ave1 diana_coman, code is here; http://ave1.org/code/suckit/, everything is pretty much in flux still (even then name could change, currently ip addresses are in network order but ports are in native order)
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07:44 ave1 this builds with the musl gnat, the binary from adacore and the latests zfp.
07:47 deedbot http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-5-assert-and-aggregates/ << ave1 - GNAT Zero Foot Print - Take 5 - Assert and Aggregates
~ 21 minutes ~
08:09 diana_coman thank you ave1 ! I'll take it
08:09 diana_coman I'll read and get back to you
~ 19 minutes ~
08:28 diana_coman ave1, if I get the structure right there, you have an empty root package Suckit and then children packages net and types; there seems to be also Suckit.Syscall that I see listed as dep in suckit.types but I can't find the source for?
08:29 ave1 Yes, that's right, the source for syscalls is in the platform directory (so in platform/linux-x86_64-asm
08:30 ave1 the gprbuild project file includes different source directories based on the platform you'll be building
08:31 diana_coman ah, got it
08:32 ave1 note that all asm code was first in suckit-ip.* but I moved it to the syscall, the suckit-ip stuff will move to linux
08:34 ave1 this move caused a major headache as suddenly the syscalls seemed to not fill buffers any longer (out of every 6 invocations of getsockname about 4 would fail with empy output).
08:34 ave1 turned out with inline asm and pointers the memory needed to be clobbered
08:35 ave1 clobber is an inline assembly term, it's a list of all registers that may change during the execution of the inline assembly
08:36 ave1 but you can also put some magic names in there like "memory"
08:37 diana_coman ugh, sounds like a mess
08:38 ave1 Every time I go deep into these things all kinds of weirdness surfaces.
08:39 ave1 probably closely related to: http://ossasepia.com/2018/08/04/a-collection-of-pearls-as-well-as-ever-sadder-epitaphs/
08:41 diana_coman sounds quite likely; and tbh that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850713 makes for weird/sad/hysterical reading depending on pov
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08:41 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 08:05 ave1: In other news, some lulzy drama underway in the Linux kernel camp; https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CA+55aFy+Hv9O5citAawS+mVZO+ywCKd9NQ2wxUmGsz9ZJzqgJQ@mail.gmail.com/
08:41 diana_coman I can just about see next version of linux-with-feelings
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08:42 diana_coman now I need to read at least https://docs.adacore.com/gnat_ugn-docs/html/gnat_ugn/gnat_ugn/inline_assembler.html
08:46 diana_coman at any rate ave1 this doesn't look bad at all in that it is an ada layer rather than just wrapping the c calls
~ 22 minutes ~
09:08 diana_coman ave1, hm, the recv_from doesn't return the length of the received string?
09:10 diana_coman does it just block until it reads to fill the buffer or how does that work?
09:11 diana_coman ahhhh, it returns that value, nm
09:18 lobbes http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850723 << ty for the feedback. I added the "Categories widget" to the sidebar so should make it easier to browse (http://blog.lobbesblog.com)
09:18 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 09:45 diana_coman: lobbes, esthlos, hanbot, ave1 - do you have something against using categories on your blogs? I find well-defined categories to be really helpful in finding stuff but on your blogs everything is in the "Uncategorized" category
09:19 diana_coman yay, thanks lobbes
09:22 mircea_popescu ave1 once he publishes later today you can just read/patch/collaborate.
09:24 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850711 << wait, if you have it also... then publish also ?
09:24 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 08:00 ave1: I'm aiming at a small library with support for UDP, TCP and UNIX sockets with direct calls to 64bit x86 and 64bit arm plus C. So far UDP + asm 64bit x86 is done.
09:27 * mircea_popescu opens "Subject: Linux 4.19-rc4 released, an apology, and a maintainership note", runs into "the code of conduct addition" , loses interest.
09:28 mircea_popescu !!rate torvalds -10 "The above is basically a long-winded way to get to the somewhat painful personal admission that hey, I need to change some of my behavior"
09:28 deedbot torvalds is not registered in WoT.
09:28 mircea_popescu fuck you, and rot in hell.
09:29 diana_coman mircea_popescu, read on, he published it meanwhile and I am looking at it right now
09:29 mircea_popescu schmuck. let's studiously overlook the man hut, so we can pretend "overwhelmed by cunt hut" latger on.
09:29 mircea_popescu diana_coman i am not reading on. i'm done with torvalds.
09:30 diana_coman ah, I did not mean torvalds!!! I meant ave1's code
09:30 mircea_popescu oh lol.
09:30 mircea_popescu dubious antecedents!!11
09:31 diana_coman re torvalds http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850744
09:31 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 12:41 diana_coman: sounds quite likely; and tbh that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850713 makes for weird/sad/hysterical reading depending on pov
09:31 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850719 << she has a point you know ; i don't just mean ave1 though it's a fine example here. you folks have an excellent semaphore system, which works well and has been historically proven to work well (not to mention have all the interest in "feelings" of a guillotine). it is very stupid NOT to use it, to eschew use it, to miss out on using it.
09:31 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 09:06 diana_coman: arguably it helps if others know what you are working on - perhaps one can help at some point or at least not duplicate the effort, that's all
09:33 mircea_popescu i don't mean "it is against group interest". i mean it from a very personal perspective, not using this is like not using fridges, or CAT scanners. YOU miss out. your own life is shittier than it need had been, on your deathbed you'll look at less of a life than it might've been. there's just no point to run the race eyes closed, none whatever.
09:34 mircea_popescu say "i will x" rather than "for the past n weeks i had been x" whenever at all feasible. for one thing, it'll get you more people, cuz ima redirect those trying to same x. for another thing, it'll give you something to look at, of your own. "here's what i said i was gonna do." yay or nay, it's absolutely better to have than to not have.
09:34 asciilifeform oh hey loox like torvalds finally gone zombie ?
09:34 mircea_popescu asciilifeform afaic.
09:35 asciilifeform sad, but i expected sooner rather than later. showed symptoms.
09:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform boys that "magically"/"inexplicably"/etc "do not seem to be able to find" #trilema generally (and "who could have predicted!!!"-predictably) come out with some kind of "since the world is entirely composed of the stupid cunts crowding over at the stupid cunt hut, it then follows i must wear pantyhose and lipstic now"
09:37 asciilifeform ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850727 << neat idea, and in keeping with the libc-removal . for some reason feels 'heavy', tho, but i am resisting the temptation to try an' figure out why atm, i am in the process of wrapping up my own ( conventional ) sockets thing for release today
09:37 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 11:42 ave1: diana_coman, code is here; http://ave1.org/code/suckit/, everything is pretty much in flux still (even then name could change, currently ip addresses are in network order but ports are in native order)
09:38 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: torvalds danced in the noose longer than most, is all i can add
09:39 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i must disagree that ave1 duplicated the effort -- his item is foundation for a fyootoor raw-irons gnat, imho
09:39 asciilifeform eventually either he or asciilifeform will substitute in the necessary asms, and then can build proggy sans linux etc
09:39 mircea_popescu ps. there's a FUCKING DIFFERENCE between "my lifetime of not understanding emotions" and what's happening there. "understanding" emotion is not of the ilk of the pantsuit "you have to understand" aka http://trilema.com/2017/mimi-metallurgico-ferito-nellonore/#footnote_0_75893
09:40 mircea_popescu understanding emotions eminently does not map, or much relate, to the validation of stupid old cunt's "feelings".
09:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: torvalds's thing reads like the zinoviev&kamenev 'confessions'
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09:40 asciilifeform i half-suspect that it was written 'for' him.
09:41 mircea_popescu it is ~they~ who fail to understand human emotions ; and predfctably attempt to replace the actual complexity of human emotions with a 1-2-3 cliffnote constructed out of their own stunted half-brain. why actual humans would permit this sham is beyond fucking comprehension, and an outrage outright.
09:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yeah, it's just... i'm fucking scandalised. junior high "taking over the world" what the fuck is wrong with all these idiots. what, "let's all manalone while the children reconstruct the world in their image", what the fuck already.
09:42 asciilifeform the funny part is that it won't save him any moar than it saved the 1937 folx.
09:42 asciilifeform i suspect that the designated replacement-torvalds, in all of its 'black chix coad' glory, is already being groomed
09:43 mircea_popescu anyway -- fuck 'em, i deeply fucking care some nobody-on-a-stick meanwhile joined the churchgoing group. whatever. but in matters of actual interest : you "were working" on an ada networking socking thing ; ave "was working" on ~same. had diana_coman not said "here's what ~~~I AM ABOUT TO DO~~~", we would have never known. if the wastefulness of this approach isn't directly obvious...
09:44 asciilifeform i'ma disagree that '~same' , but this will only be possible to explain once mine's posted.
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09:45 mircea_popescu if they don't happen to same, that is as far as anyone knows, sheer coincidence. because in not having said, you lost on being able to know.
09:45 asciilifeform but yes imho ave1 would've won from at least giving hint re what he's doing
09:45 mircea_popescu heh.
09:45 asciilifeform ( asciilifeform at least posted snippets of various incomplete strange , over the yrs )
09:47 mircea_popescu are you familiar with the resistence heuristic ?
09:47 asciilifeform not under this name
09:47 asciilifeform plox to expand?
09:48 mircea_popescu there's two kinds of girls in the dungeon, when it comes to beatings. there's more than two kinds in pretty much all other context, but here just two : those who move into the blow, and those who move to escape it.
09:48 mircea_popescu the latter thereby signal they need more beatings.
09:52 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: interesting, none of'em stay put ?
09:52 mircea_popescu tis not of the flesh to stay put.
09:53 mircea_popescu kinda the fucking point. if that were an option -- beating wouldn't be a thing. at least not for me.
09:53 mircea_popescu but in strict terms, the utility is that it forces the above dilemma, inescapably. this is substantially what beating even is, the only proper definition thereof.
09:53 mircea_popescu ova nyah or ova myah, pick & choose.
09:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850725 << don't worry, i'm STILL working on it.
09:56 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 10:09 ave1: now for the well-defined part, this I will have to work on...
09:56 mircea_popescu more than half the categories on trilema didn't get any articles in a year+, if this isn't a sign of utter and complete breakdown...
09:57 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'defined' is the item that differs in asciilifeform's, in fact. i dispensed with ~90% of the knobs simply by going 'sockets are udp, that's it'. no tcpism, i.e. no accept() and the associated streamolade, no unix sockets with their weird, etc.
09:57 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this was re sorting blog bits in categories.
09:57 asciilifeform aa
09:58 mircea_popescu but yes, the procedure is pretty much the sole mother, "when in doubt, simplify"
09:58 asciilifeform ( ~all i got is make_socket, get_packet, send_packet , that's it. )
09:58 mircea_popescu apparently unix sockets got a lot weirder while nobody was looking.
09:58 mircea_popescu also, there's html5 socks now too!
09:59 asciilifeform whole unix socket thing was ~always a massive ball of ???
10:02 mircea_popescu ave1 Aggregates << for the record, i think this whole thing is stupid, in the camel-nose-under-tent sense. array-aggregate-operation should not draw in the gc apparatus (in its memcpy portions, whatever).
10:02 asciilifeform gc ?!
10:02 mircea_popescu though on meditation, such a "should" might not be available on current iron...
10:03 asciilifeform there ain't a 'gc apparatus' in gnat
10:03 mircea_popescu asciilifeform in my mind, all memory handling operations are part of the gc.
10:03 mircea_popescu whether fucked with in any sense, allocate memory, deallocate memory, it's all one thing.
10:03 asciilifeform you ~could~ call malloc() and free() a 'gc apparatus' (a braindamaged one, imho) but i specifically exclude it in my proggies, by banning heap
10:04 mircea_popescu now i gotta read the memcpy reference, isn't it basically a wrapper on malloc ?
10:04 asciilifeform there's no way to get out of memset()/memcpy() or equiv, tho ( and yes a sane iron would give it as an iron primitive )
10:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: memcpy is simply a multiword mov
10:04 asciilifeform ( and memset is used to clear a range )
10:05 asciilifeform neither is connected in any way with heapology
10:06 mircea_popescu aha! turns out i misspoke.
10:06 mircea_popescu nfi where i picked up the idea, but not borne by facts.
10:06 asciilifeform e.g. Foo(1 .. 3) := (others => 0) compiles into a memset(..., 0) ; Foo(1 .. 3) := Bar(5 .. 8) compiles into a memcpy . etc
10:07 * mircea_popescu takes it back.
10:08 asciilifeform re heaps, it is asciilifeform's current pov that it is possible (contrary to popular delusion) to write virtually any nontrivial proggy, entirely heaplessly
10:09 asciilifeform ( and in fact this was sop in the aerospace/avionics world, until recently 'went microshit' )
10:10 mircea_popescu well, except for "gui" & "feelings".
10:10 asciilifeform for the rare exception, ada standard actually gives the tools to bake a custom heap that uses specified storage and allocation algos, bypassing the os derpery entirely
10:11 mircea_popescu speaking of which, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850746 <<->> http://trilema.com/2014/hey-stupid-women-we-need-to-talk-smart-women-dont-want-to-be-with-you-anymore/#selection-159.0-171.73
10:11 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 12:41 diana_coman: I can just about see next version of linux-with-feelings
10:11 * asciilifeform has not yet had occasion to try this
10:11 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: linux kernel as a going concern prolly has ~months of life in it, if not weeks
10:11 asciilifeform i suspect the time to snapshot and pour cement, trb style, approaches.
10:12 mircea_popescu what approaches, lol.
10:12 mircea_popescu anyway, i suspect it'll be a whole openssl/libressl bla bla fizzle and pop there too.
10:12 mircea_popescu the path to argentina is well understood and better documented.
10:13 asciilifeform the practical consequence will be 'aah you have iron that wasn't around in sept 2018? go and backport and come back to us with vpatch'
10:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: linus's kernel was the last remaining 'open sores' item that was 'usable from upstream' afaik.
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10:14 asciilifeform d00d successfully kept out the reaching tentacles (poettering's 'kernel dbus', etc)
10:14 asciilifeform this -- is coming to an end.
10:14 mircea_popescu in strict professional terms, this is the sort of boon nobody could have even fucking hoped for, as a child. it's one thing to "miss out on bitcoin" because bought food instead of bitcoin in 2012. it is however a substantially different thing to miss out on engineering -- harder to fucking do.
10:15 mircea_popescu in another decade or two, it'll be strictly impossible for the various pantsuit churchlets to do ~anything. they're rapidly losing all technical ability, and so... i mean i already can take my pick of bdsm-ish chicks in "north america -- the best country in the world". in another coupla decades, boy howdy.
10:15 asciilifeform hey, plenty of folx manage to 'miss engineering' (e.g. by playing with 'feelings' as child instead of junkyard)
10:15 mircea_popescu "electrolytes have the pepsi that plants need"
10:16 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes, but once one ~is there~, one is there. there's no more missing out, just stick to it.
10:18 asciilifeform d00d tired of cleaning monkey shit, handed temple over to the monkeys.
10:19 asciilifeform possibly suffers the delusion where 'they'll beg to have me back' or somesuch.
10:21 mircea_popescu in any case, what we do on ~regular basis is already "unthinkable" for the alt-professional (in the http://trilema.com/2013/a-very-unfair-perspective/#selection-41.0-41.828 sense of "alt") crowd, from http://trilema.com/2012/law-enforcement-never-fails-to-unintentionally-entertain/#selection-129.0-129.992 imperial dragoons to the http://trilema.com/2015/what-amused-me-today/ "independent mind" schmucks.
10:22 mircea_popescu there's just about no perspective which is both consistent and describes a reduction of this gap.
10:23 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the way i understand it, there's a set of folx with souls, and another, larger, set of meatpuppets with soul-emulator in ms 'excel'. and no, can't bridge gap, how would this even go.
10:23 asciilifeform ( mircea_popescu , recall garcia lorca's 'alma de charol' ? )
10:23 mircea_popescu in point of fact, historical aristocracy did not enjoy quite as deep or strict cleavage from the peons. yes your count would be "brave" where your peasanrt would be "cowardly", but this is very fucking little when compared to "in alte stiri umoristice, prostalaii astia cu fetlife si-or angajat uameni si-or schimbat saitu', pen'ca li se parea lor cam nedrept ca de ce fac io ce vreau pe-acolo. ca rezultat, mi-or murit tate scri
10:23 mircea_popescu pturile. ca alt rezultat, am sezut doua ceasuri de-am recitit ce mizerii am scris acum sase luni, le-am rescris, si... mnoa, triplat eficienta."
10:24 mircea_popescu asciilifeform ok, but in 1200 a peasant could ~at least in principle~ become lord. some kind of principle, something (yes it ~never worked in practice).
10:24 mircea_popescu good fucking luck with this new paradigm however. how, just FUCKING HOW ?!
10:25 mircea_popescu in short -- "good news", after a fashion : everyone's fucked, and their children will absolutely never see the light of day.
10:28 BingoBoingo !Q later tell PeterL http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/3GLik/?raw=true
10:28 lobbesbot BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
10:28 lobbesbot BingoBoingo: Sent 11 hours and 3 minutes ago: <PeterL> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/KDpD9/?raw=true
10:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: actually very similar to nao -- d00d who spend childhood cleaning chicken shit instead of on horseback, was not lord material
10:40 asciilifeform simple physiological problem, really
10:40 mircea_popescu yes, but much easier to remedy that.
10:42 * asciilifeform bbl,teatime
~ 19 minutes ~
11:01 deedbot http://pizarroisp.net/2018/09/17/september-2018/ << PizzaroISP - September 2018
11:05 mod6 Thanks deedbot. TMSR~: The Pizarro August report is finally out, thanks for your patience with me for getting this completed.
11:07 mircea_popescu twoweeks!
11:07 mod6 Yeah, was a bear.
11:08 mod6 I ended up having to go through the assets and liabilities tables like 2x.
11:13 mod6 Hopefully it gets easier. :/
11:13 mircea_popescu hopefully!
11:14 BingoBoingo Turns out transitions are a bitch, contrary to Craig Kate Woods propaganda
11:20 mod6 After looking at the post that I just made a bit more carefully, I'm gonna have to repost. The HTMLifier hosed up the spacing and columns.
11:20 mod6 Will report back...
~ 16 minutes ~
11:36 mod6 Alright, much better. http://pizarroisp.net/2018/09/17/september-2018/
~ 28 minutes ~
12:05 deedbot http://bimbo.club/?p=14 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 9/06/2018
12:07 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: update re crate -- dhl says 'montevideo: delayed in customs' but no email from same of yet
12:07 asciilifeform ( apparently takes only 3d to get to orcistan nao.. )
12:07 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Aite, you should recieve that in the next 24-36 hours
12:07 asciilifeform aite, lessee
12:10 asciilifeform mod6: congrats
~ 25 minutes ~
12:36 diana_coman ave1, I adapted my udp test from http://ossasepia.com/2018/09/14/smgcomms-implementation-chapter-1/#selection-159.0-159.2325 to use your suckits and it works!
12:38 mircea_popescu "your suckit -0 it works!"
12:44 asciilifeform neato
12:58 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850713 << imma start calling this "coming out"
12:58 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 08:05 ave1: In other news, some lulzy drama underway in the Linux kernel camp; https://lore.kernel.org/lkml/CA+55aFy+Hv9O5citAawS+mVZO+ywCKd9NQ2wxUmGsz9ZJzqgJQ@mail.gmail.com/
13:02 mircea_popescu or turning out, as in the classical pimping term.
13:03 asciilifeform what was the virological term, when latent carrier begins to show symptoms
13:05 mircea_popescu i suppose "express", as in "genotype expresses in fenotype". though honestly, the more direct sexual reference is deeply adequate. this is a sexual matter, not genetic nor immunological nor etc.
13:05 asciilifeform epidemiological matter.
13:05 trinque he's offering up the asshole to spite father, like so many emo kids before him, to join the church of pantsuit
13:06 trinque reminds me of seeing same when some overtly gay kid would go to the front of the church to get fondled by church elders and convert
13:06 mircea_popescu i don't see the contagion angle. sexual fetishes are a matter of fashion, to some degree, but not properly speaking epidemic.
13:06 asciilifeform trinque: kid is one thing; d00d held out for, what, 20yrs
13:07 mircea_popescu asciilifeform in this sense the more famous judas held out for 30 yrs.
13:07 mircea_popescu yes, back when ~nobody cared he "held out".
13:08 trinque asciilifeform: torvalds might not have been so cranky if he wasn't stuck in LOOK AT ME, I'M A MAN NOW mode for 20yrs
13:08 trinque this is a teenaged thing
13:08 asciilifeform possibly
13:08 mircea_popescu i r suspect alf is the more disappointed among us. not that i hold that against him.
13:09 asciilifeform i'll confess, did not actively follow his human output. all i saw was the kernel-dbus folx etc banging unsuccessfully at the kernel door for ~decade
13:09 mircea_popescu i happily ignored "tech" in that decade, or most of it anyway.
13:09 asciilifeform i'ma subscriber to 'by their fruits shall know them'(tm) algo
13:09 trinque a teenager can do the right thing.
13:10 * trinque was musing in the office earlier that Jobs died before his coming out, lucky man
13:10 mircea_popescu consequently all sorts of things are the same to me, or not worth the distinguishing, that i believe aren't to the more involved observer.
13:10 mircea_popescu not proposing this as a virtue.
13:11 mircea_popescu trinque i dunno, he was into that whole "live forever in a turtleneck and short hair" pantsuit churchlet.
13:11 asciilifeform hey, the alpha centaurians who only see the radio crapola from us, and nuffin else, prolly distinguish even less.
13:11 mircea_popescu that he croaked is lofty irony, in that sense, but i can't imagine what coming out it'd have taken. how was he in ?
13:12 trinque in the same pretense as torvalds, "I tell people no; this is it, right?"
13:12 trinque apparently not, better build something behind the walls
13:12 asciilifeform trinque: my model of s.jobs is as an old-style 'vhs usa' howard hughes sorta figure. 'fuckoff, i'ma sit in my box with filtered air, and do what i want'
13:13 trinque I think they'd have rolled him right over by now, no pretense of higher ground left
13:13 mircea_popescu except "what i want" is "unleash the creativity in every droplet of mankind" sorta bunk.
13:13 mircea_popescu it's a wonder they didn't cryo-whatever him.
13:13 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: that was the marketing dept. d00d himself was moar of a quimby.
13:14 mircea_popescu anyway, the "millenialist", so to call them, "star trek is socialist future" pantsuit group lost pretty much everything in the 2010s religious war with the "ugly fat negro women with their tits in the mud is socialist future" group.
13:14 asciilifeform 'effective monopolist', sold the users 100 $ scsi cables, and 'make'em like it'
13:15 mircea_popescu i never perceived him as anything other than or besides https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/FM-2030 character.
↖
13:16 asciilifeform lol, where do you find these !
13:16 mircea_popescu https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Futures_studies << example wank. it's a whole school of pantsuitism.
13:17 mircea_popescu it was a very different flavour of socialism than what's currently prevailing in pantsuilands. this was supposed to be pretty much exactly star trek, "better living through technology [and carefully not looking under the rugs desighnated 'do not look under this rug']".
13:18 mircea_popescu the whole "women are people too, muh feelings, rape is bad mkay, e=mc2 is mean because it priviledges the speed of light over other speeds much more important to us" mamie-ism is entirely a different flavour
13:18 trinque "so long as we all revere picard it totally isn't hierarchy!"
13:18 mircea_popescu but it prevailed because http://btcbase.org/log/2015-02-17#1021774
13:18 a111 Logged on 2015-02-17 03:31 mircea_popescu: meanwhile, moore's dead, and the thing will suffer the exact fate of printing.
13:19 asciilifeform helps to put current-day crapple into correct perspective. it is a creation of 1990s microshit ( massive dough infusion ), originally to defend against 'monopoly bust'. ended up revived as a replacement 'usg dept of kompyooting' as the original began to show signs of rust
13:20 mircea_popescu meanwhuile in lulz, "WHIPPED BECAUSE SHE WAS IMPERTINENT Then Miss DeCrist Was Chained to a Negress Until She Fainted"
13:20 mircea_popescu https://cdnc.ucr.edu/cgi-bin/cdnc?a=d&d=LAH19030813.2.6&e=-------en--20--1--txt-txIN--------1 <
13:20 asciilifeform holyfuq that url
13:20 mircea_popescu aaand i shall bbl!
13:20 asciilifeform what's their thing implemented in... befunge ?!
13:24 * asciilifeform suspects that 'mother earth mamie socialism' and 'galacticexploration socialism' are not wholly separate, psychiatrically, items. back when 'mother industry will provide' was sustainable religion, that was the dominant flavour. after errybody's tasted buffett's petro-caviar, no longer appealed, same psychotypes went to 'mother earth will provide' historic default
13:26 asciilifeform the fundamental flavour of the snake oil being sold, 'one day errybody can have ERRYTHING THEY WANT!11' , is quite similar in both
13:30 asciilifeform the lizards, having access to the http://btcbase.org/log/2014-07-30#778096 figs, naturally switched to the 'help'em downregulate their wants' tack. ergo 'tits in the mud' becoming order of the day.
13:30 a111 Logged on 2014-07-30 13:57 asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.'
~ 1 hours ~
14:30 ben_vulpes http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/HUrlW/?raw=true << winklevii taking a crack at "tether" market
14:32 asciilifeform lol, swift-on-ethertardium ?
14:32 asciilifeform snoar
14:33 * trinque recalls some other folks being arrested for "counterfeiting" after creating the "liberty dollar"
14:34 asciilifeform trinque: but lol, see, those were cuntry rubes, scamming without Official inca franchise
14:34 trinque https://web.archive.org/web/20110325052709/http://www.nysun.com/editorials/a-unique-form-of-terrorism/87269/ << ???A unique form of domestic terrorism??? is the way the U.S. Attorney for the Western District of North Carolina, Anne M. Tompkins, is describing attempts ???to undermine the legitimate currency of this country.???
14:35 trinque this must be that original sin people talk about
14:35 asciilifeform trinque: i cited that one in my ancient http://www.loper-os.org/?p=939 piece , aha
14:35 asciilifeform '“While these forms of anti-government activities do not involve violence, they are every bit as insidious and represent a clear and present danger to the economic stability of this country,” she said.' etc
14:36 * asciilifeform doesn't grasp who and for what needs yet-another paypal, just as the last N-1 times
14:48 PeterL hey there
14:48 lobbesbot PeterL: Sent 4 hours and 19 minutes ago: <BingoBoingo> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/3GLik/?raw=true
14:49 mod6 Hi PeterL: BingoBoingo was telling me that you wanted a Hosted Shell Plus plan for 0.002 BTC/mo, correct?
14:49 PeterL bingoboingo what key is that encrypted to?
14:52 PeterL why is #pizarro invite only, are not potential customers pointed there by the website?
14:53 BingoBoingo PeterL: mod6 is worried about Allah spam in #pizarro
14:53 BingoBoingo But you can encrypt the ssh pub key to myself, mod6 or both of us
14:53 PeterL mod6: I was looking at the 0.001 /mo one, would that work for a blog?
14:54 mod6 PeterL: There really only is one package at this time, the Hosted Shell Plus, which is 0.002 BTC/mo, but gives you all the items you require for a blog.
14:56 mod6 And ya, would love to have #pizarro open and welcoming to everyone. I turned off the restrictions this AM and within 3 minutes, guy came in and shit in the foyer.
14:56 mod6 So they went back on.
15:04 mod6 Also folks, Pizarro needs to purchase some fiat, so if you're interested, can start up an auction if you like, or can do WU or whatever. Minimum $500, please. Let us know if interested.
↖ ↖
15:08 trinque mod6: can't operate a storefront without being willing to ban-per-derp
15:09 mod6 These guys are like: 1) enter 2) shit 3) leave 4) change nicl
15:09 mod6 can't really contest with that
15:10 trinque fair enough
15:10 mircea_popescu anti-government activities for the win.
15:11 mircea_popescu mod6 srsly, invite-only dun work so well for a support chan
15:11 trinque also apparently stood in the way of a sale for PeterL, albeit temporarily
15:12 trinque maybe somebody else isn't so persistent
15:12 trinque onboarding ramp!!!
15:12 mod6 i totally agree. kinda between charybdis and scylla on this tho 'eh
15:12 mircea_popescu does +m no longer work then ?
15:12 mod6 i mean, for a channel to be a useful place to do things, one must be able to read it and its logs.
15:12 mircea_popescu or what was it, +r, w/e, need to be registered to join
15:13 mod6 i guess we could leave it +m
15:16 mod6 Alright, we'll try that. Also gave info to ops on how to do things so I'm not the one channel master.
15:16 mod6 asciilifeform BingoBoingo ben_vulpes ^
15:17 ben_vulpes mod6: ack
15:22 BingoBoingo If #eulora can handle, we might have to raise our tolerance for the noise. Or get a bot going that than autokickbans on the phrase "Allah is doing"
15:23 mircea_popescu might actually offer a bot-as-a-service that pms all new joins to the channel a question, and if it doesn't get the answer it doesn't voice them
15:23 mircea_popescu sorta like deedbot lite.
15:24 mircea_popescu trinque is this something you'd be interested in doing ? expand deedbot thusly, maybe charge chans a fee ?
↖ ↖
15:25 trinque that sort of hired-deedbot service is already on my long conveyor, out past hotwallet, out past repossession of linux. I'd not be offended if somebody else did this, but my version will be coming regardless
15:26 trinque whole notion behind the invoicing system was that I'll offer these kinds of subscription services
15:26 mircea_popescu any good reason to not shuffle it close in ?
15:27 trinque I could move it ahead of hotwallet; oughta get linux repo work done first while the dwarf-fortress-isms of portage are still fresh in my head
15:27 PeterL at least now I can join #pizarro, but still can't talk there
15:27 trinque *repossession, not repository
15:27 mircea_popescu aha.
15:28 mircea_popescu what's deedbot, python ?
15:30 trinque naw, lisp entirely
15:30 trinque several lisp services using a postgresql as a message queue
15:38 mircea_popescu trinque tbh i was thinking of revising the voice model altogether, in favour of a voice-or-kick model.
↖ ↖
15:39 mircea_popescu no more need for !!up, deedbot messages you on join, you got 5 minutes or somesuch to respond. if you don't, it kicks, and if it kicks you multiple times a day it also bans you.
15:47 deedbot http://qntra.net/2018/09/cristina-kirchner-charged-over-criminal-conspiracy/ << Qntra - Cristina Kirchner Charged Over Criminal Conspiracy
15:49 trinque can see the wisdom in it, if freenode were reliable. would need to account for days of bad freenode weather, or repeated reconnects without meat present at terminal would result in a ban.
15:51 mircea_popescu "repeated reconnects without meat present at terminal" <<< this seems at best disrespectful.
15:51 mircea_popescu why should we be asked to talk to machines ?
15:52 BingoBoingo In other Linus/Lola Transitions http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/TMwik/?raw=true
15:53 mircea_popescu lola torvalds henceforth ? this is not even a bad idea.
15:53 mircea_popescu might as well make use of the golums.
15:53 trinque mircea_popescu: eh? I'm not following you. implementing what you described would get someone banned if their IRC client is automatically reconnecting during netsplits and etc
15:54 mircea_popescu "makes it sound like she has reneged on a gender agreement, rather than come to terms with her identity" << exactly what fucking happened, duh.
15:54 mircea_popescu "it's not so much that there's no more pie, as it is we ate the pie." hurr durr, endless infinity engine of unredeemable externalizations.
15:55 mircea_popescu trinque afaik netsplits resolution preserves voice.
15:55 trinque can, but I guarantee there are cases where someone's client will reconnect 5 times without them home
15:56 mircea_popescu anyway, seems to me "automatic connections" is a take on "a man walks into a bar" consisting of "but it wasn't really a man, just the hologram of one"
↖
15:56 mircea_popescu you're saying this level of incarnation is too much to ask ?
15:57 trinque not at all, knife can cut in the direction of "don't autoconnect, connect when you're you", and is entirely sensible.
15:57 mircea_popescu it seems to me to be the right thing here, "connect when you're you". otherwise, who are we talking to ?
↖
15:57 mircea_popescu not like log reading and the !Q later device aren't available to cross presence gaps.
15:58 * trinque can dig it
15:58 mircea_popescu anyway, mostly thinking outloud.
15:59 mircea_popescu what's exactly the benefit of having whichever-unvoiced-name idling ? that what, "they can confirm the logs" ? wut the fuck is ever going to ask the voiceless anything, i need anonvouching like i need featherhairs.
16:00 mircea_popescu erry time i come in i send !!up to deedbot, i sent thousands to date, why ? it knows what i'm gonna say to it the momen ti show up, doesn't it ? who does anything @ deedbot BUT "!!up" when they come in ?
16:03 mircea_popescu i guess "this cat not worth the skinning", in general, maybe. sure, not like the current model is that broken. but if you're going to support things like #pizarro, deedbot pming new names is way the fuck better than pizarro website or sales funnel including a "and then send !!up to deebot" etc.
16:04 mircea_popescu noob support needs to be as simple and requiring of as little initiative as possible. and once that's made like that, why am i forcing you to keep an entirely separate model for #trilema ? when the same thing would actually work better in point of fact ?
16:05 mircea_popescu simply have a knob that decides whether {crypto|plain} auth is used ; crypto does what it does now, plain asks a question, "Tell me what color is the sky", picked from a list or somesuch.
↖
16:06 BingoBoingo Remember the incredibly effective Bitbet captcha
16:07 mircea_popescu then like that it's perfectly systematizable, "!!add #fuckall plain 0 intolerant" meaning "join #fuckall, kick/ban anyone who fails to answer your plaintext question, voice everyone who does answer permanently"
16:10 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850999 << i like this idea,
16:10 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 19:38 mircea_popescu: trinque tbh i was thinking of revising the voice model altogether, in favour of a voice-or-kick model.
16:10 mircea_popescu asciilifeform hanbot predicted this.
16:11 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1851013 << but this, not so much. currently i have a znc poured into cement, and loathe to change anyffing at all about it.
16:11 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 19:56 mircea_popescu: anyway, seems to me "automatic connections" is a take on "a man walks into a bar" consisting of "but it wasn't really a man, just the hologram of one"
16:11 mircea_popescu asciilifeform did it ever do what he describes ? i dun think i ever saw it.
16:11 asciilifeform actually quite recently, iirc mircea_popescu was even awake for it
16:11 mircea_popescu can has a pointer ?
16:11 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-03#1847160
16:11 a111 Logged on 2018-09-03 19:23 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/cltKR/?raw=true << you were in a few times.
16:12 mircea_popescu propos fdor teh archiver lobbes !
16:12 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aha hm. totally forgot.
16:13 asciilifeform fleanode suxx, 'noose at 11'
16:13 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1851016 << fwiw asciilifeform has various robotics passing log material to him even when he is far from a 2way terminal
16:13 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 19:57 mircea_popescu: it seems to me to be the right thing here, "connect when you're you". otherwise, who are we talking to ?
16:14 mircea_popescu nuttin wrong with that.
16:14 asciilifeform aha, was addressing the 'what's the point of reconnectortrons, i want to talk to live people'
16:14 mircea_popescu i personally fucking loathe it, because often i want to answer, and then if i can't i have to savew it, which works poorly.
16:15 asciilifeform makes sense
16:15 mircea_popescu so i kinda tend to sit at term when ima read logs. maybe this is just my own workflow bias speaking.
16:15 mircea_popescu anyway, the point certainly isn't to force people to be more like x, in any case.
16:16 mircea_popescu it all sprung out from the "how would the deedbot pizarro service look like" consideration.
16:18 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1851024 << 'nonstandard' captchas actually work quite well. ( i have one in the pipeline for my www, which used an ancient heathen service thing that meanwhile died ). there was a famous ru www that had... schoolboy-level integral problems, as 'captcha'.
16:18 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 20:05 mircea_popescu: simply have a knob that decides whether {crypto|plain} auth is used ; crypto does what it does now, plain asks a question, "Tell me what color is the sky", picked from a list or somesuch.
16:18 mircea_popescu certainly.
16:20 mircea_popescu the problem with "kick only, no banning" is that the same sort of idle morons that currently idle here would just go to war with the bot with their autoreconnectors ; deedbot would kick the same idiots over and over and oever again, possibly for the next 5 years.
16:20 mircea_popescu this is the whole fucking point here, pierce the "convenience" world.
16:21 mircea_popescu this situation where "i idle in 560895409860 channels and have last read anything 176 weeks ago" gotta fucking cease.
16:21 asciilifeform recall the iptables thread ? bans are not a perma-pill, same derps could just as easily go to war with fleanode's nick reg mechanism, get 9000 clean nicks, neh.
16:21 mircea_popescu by the time they do that, "why are you not just being normal" becomes quite hte question
16:22 asciilifeform seems to me that items come in 'allcomers' and 'closed wot', and 'allcomers+bans' is simply recipe for whackamole
16:22 mircea_popescu not that i'm even for a second proposing this is impossible. #eulora famously had one moron who "played" the game for months, merely creating accounts, never actually went in.
16:22 mircea_popescu asciilifeform bans are currently free, i don't maintain the list.
16:22 asciilifeform right
16:23 mircea_popescu nothing wrong with seeing what happens with a really long one.
16:23 asciilifeform !#s remoras
16:23 a111 19 results for "remoras", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=remoras
16:23 asciilifeform ^ i'ma all for the remora ddt.
16:24 asciilifeform strikes me as orthogonal to the voice q, tho
16:24 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-22#1631003 << prophecy
16:24 a111 Logged on 2017-03-22 20:53 ben_vulpes: i'd almost rather see an auto-kicker
16:25 asciilifeform if mircea_popescu puts in a 'folx who lurked for n day and said 0' kicktron, i'll clap.
16:25 mircea_popescu well this'd be it.
16:25 asciilifeform so long as it specifically excludes validly-wot'd folx, i can't see any possibl problem
16:26 asciilifeform nobody needs the 'i'ma lurk here for a year because reading www logs is against koran' types for anyffing, imho.
16:27 mircea_popescu so you'd want " if you don't, it kicks, and if it kicks you multiple times a day it also bans you." ammended to " if you don't, it kicks, and if it kicks you multiple times a day and your wotranking isn't >1 it also bans you." ?
16:27 asciilifeform aha
16:27 asciilifeform sounds like entirely good pill.
16:27 mircea_popescu this may even be feasible, i don't imagine the wotscore lookup is that expensive. i dun see anythinf wrong with it, if anyone's annoying easy enough to fix the score.
16:28 asciilifeform aha, same mechanism as trinque presently has for voice filter
16:29 mircea_popescu prolly >=1 in there. but anyway.
16:30 asciilifeform to rewrite the equation, there's a set of folx who have some biznis connecting, and a larger set who do not, and fortunately they are mechanically distinguishable
16:31 asciilifeform as for the classic voice model, i admit that i like the hidden feature where it causes folx to periodically reassert that they still control their key
16:32 asciilifeform ( this is where it wins over simple 'moderated' chan with hand-curated people list )
16:33 asciilifeform i can't speak for others, but asciilifeform does not find having to unsheath the launch coads erry coupla wks, to be huge headache
16:34 asciilifeform ( and e.g. mircea_popescu unsheaths ~erry day, and i dun recall him finding it headache )
↖
16:44 diana_coman the question+kick&ban sounds good to me - kicking "silent" aka "I'm part of it because I hang about in here doing nothing" is even needed by now, I'd say; I can also see very well its usefulness for other channels; while atm #eulora tolerates the allah-spam, it could certainly do without it especially at less-quiet times
↖
16:45 mircea_popescu well, i certainly prefer it to the alternative, whereby ghost-of-mp long after floats about the land
~ 1 hours 19 minutes ~
18:04 Mocky allah-spam in #eulora seemed mere annoyance until I noticed how it inserts pages of spam with log search results.
18:05 Mocky *into* log search results
~ 16 minutes ~
18:22 trinque wot rating lookup isn't heavy at all, sounds like a plan.
↖
~ 4 hours 35 minutes ~
22:57 deedbot http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2557 << Loper OS - UDP.
22:57 asciilifeform !Q later tell diana_coman http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2557 .
22:57 lobbesbot asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
22:59 asciilifeform ^ eventually i'd like to rewrite the human-string routines, and get rid of the unix callout there, but imho errything else prolly oughta stay as is.
22:59 asciilifeform !Q later tell phf plox to snarf vpatch in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2557 , ty
22:59 lobbesbot asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
23:00 * asciilifeform will bbl.
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