#trilema | 2018-10-04

trilema down?

10:50

maybe just me

10:52

ok, nevermind. works!

~ 28 minutes ~

11:21

asciilifeform i figure the rams or what were don't need to be included ; what'd the switch end up costing, you ever figured it ?

11:21

mircea_popescu: the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-03#1857659 ?

11:21

Logged on 2018-10-03 16:28 asciilifeform adds ' asciilifeform-recipe switch ' to next cargo manifest

11:21

yeah

11:22

or is it just software ?

11:22

software, but iron will be 100 orcbux per.

11:22

used or new ?

11:22

new

11:22

it's ye olde octeon.

11:22

and is the one you ship actually used or new ?

11:23

will be new, they're still in print.

11:23

( will have to replace internal ssd, that'll be another 25 . )

11:23

so like (100+25)*1.2 ? or were we doing 10% ?

11:23

so 125 net for new iron.

11:23

i'ma leave the margin to mircea_popescu .

11:24

yeah but we were using a "standard" figure. what's pizarro charge, i don't recall ? was it 10% ?

11:31

mod6 plox to clarify when you wake up

11:32

Hi, I think we do 20% usually.

11:32

I don't have my notes in front of me though.

11:32

ben_vulpes: ?

11:35

https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-one-tiny-chinese-chip-was-used-to-infiltrate-apple-amazon-us-contractors-report/

11:35

heh.

11:36

"We chipped some folks"

11:36

mod6: already submitted as qntra lulzcandidate. but whole story lulzy, the chinese folx built a vlsi-bugged filter cap and slipped it into ~errything some time around '14

11:36

Yeah, was some years back it seems.

11:37

inb4 pantsuit dept of blue farts starts "chinese spies in democratic party" fbi investigation

11:37

somebody oughta have told'em that they oughta bug a ~diode~ instead ; it is not difficult to detect a capacitor that semiconducts inside somewhere ( it'll rectify rf ) .

11:37

asciilifeform someone prolly has.

11:38

i suspect the cap was the 'easy' bug. y'know how when educated folx bug people, they give'em 2-3 'easies', a 'medium' to make the diggers feel 'accomplished' when the find, and the 'actual' bug somewhere entirely else.

11:39

quite.

11:39

mircea_popescu: if the fishwraps are to be believed, they sat this one down on the BMC bus. so really extra spice on top of the usual bmc lulz.

11:40

( inject known bitstring into smbus, and e.g. write to arbitrary ram, etc )

11:41

asciilifeform incidentally, gave a look at eulora log recently ?

11:42

looks ~exactly like gossipd would.

11:42

nope, but, will nao..

11:42

ugh thing still fulla spamola

11:42

mno.

11:42

legitimate comments!

11:42

plox to link ?

11:43

"but mp, i know who you or mocky are, i don't know these random names!" "so ?" "so the random names are spam" "congratulations of having a wot. now try without."

11:43

ie, ~exactly what gossipd'd look like.

11:43

aa in the sense of 'what sw rf spectrum loox like without a tuner' lolyes

11:44

kinda what we're building.

11:44

kinda, but entirely without wot all you'd get is cipherolade

11:45

no. entirely without rsa all you get is cipherloade. with rsa but with ~not great wot~, what you get is on display currently in eulora log.

11:45

btw, the spam folx finally did their homework, loox like, and copied the algo that was used to murder usenet,

11:45

!#s hipcrime

11:45

4 results for "hipcrime", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=hipcrime

11:46

( the thing where random snippets of actual posts somewhere , rather than pure shannonized )

11:46

thereby the personal incentive3 to great wot ("but mp... why should i work my ass off and stay up nights to get good ratings from good people?!?!?!") is precisely so as to turn #eulora into #trilema.

11:46

asciilifeform ayup.

11:46

funnily also, there's still 0 spam in #asciilifeform , i think they took snapshot of whom-to-spam 1ce and never refreshed

11:47

imo huge opportunity here for deedbot to swoop in and take over irc, with http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850988

11:47

Logged on 2018-09-17 19:24 mircea_popescu: trinque is this something you'd be interested in doing ? expand deedbot thusly, maybe charge chans a fee ?

11:47

aaand considering it's been coupla weeks, trinque care to put an eta on it ?

11:48

nao if only somebody other than us still used irc...

11:48

asciilifeform supposedly big deal in this "foss" thing i never heard about. i dunno.

11:48

( where was that mircea_popescu piece, where mircea_popescu looked for signs of life )

11:50

jesus the online searchers are utter shit.

11:51

http://trilema.com/2018/and-in-other-dead-things/

11:51

fuck you, shitsearch webside, INDEX TRILEMA.

11:51

oh hey that was it.

11:51

there's much less of interest on the whole fucking internet than there, it's the bigger half of the web, none of this shit where i search for dead or freenode and that's not on the results.

11:52

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Atrilema.com+dead+things&t=ffsb&ia=web << look at this stupid shit.

11:53

the lolcatnet and the thinkingpeoplenet, living in same fabric, is a historic accident, rather like sov communal flats where physics prof lived with a furnace stoker . it's to be corrected.

11:53

i strongly suspect ~actual~ search doesn't even happen anymore. because heck, page indexing is fucking hard, and http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856427

11:53

Logged on 2018-10-01 14:49 asciilifeform: recall the thread where mircea_popescu observed 'y'know those 'hard' murder cases, where detective sits an' thinks, well guess what , in new york they no longer do that, either obvious suspect or they shelve it nao'

11:54

mircea_popescu: observe that i was able to index 9.3 mil pgp comment strings somehao, on 1 iron, and with <1s lookup

11:54

indexing ain't actually so hard, but it dun scale to 1e12 nonpaying lolcats

11:54

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=site%3Atrilema.com+%22and+in+other+dead+things%22&t=ffsb&ia=web << check out this lulz.

11:55

asciilifeform yes, but that's fixedform, not freeform natlang

11:55

semi-free

11:55

(substring matching with 0 operators)

11:55

the problem with "web searching" always was this confounding, "there's no definition of page"

11:56

eg, if everyone was on mp-wp, degree of magnitude cheaper search

11:56

the moar fundamental problem is that 99.999....+% of the material is sewage

11:56

(which yes is contemplated here -- have republican blog search engine, dedicated.)

11:57

and yes if errybody agreed on a sane canonical text format, and actually exported that, search becomes ~trivial

11:57

ikr.

11:57

the pre-timberniers-tardation 'let's build a web' folx, understood this

11:57

"but people want to be free!!!" "no fucktard, gas wants to be free. people want to make sense."

11:58

"how come i don't, then !?" "three guesses."

12:00

nobody ever fucking thinks about this, all the "oh, authoritarian irrespirable atmosphere at home!!!" complains never go along the lines of "but daddy, i want to be free, stuff omlet in my ear and piss out the nose!" "what are you, some kind of moron ?!" ; instead they always go along the lines of "but daddy, you're not making any fucking sense!" "shut up!"

12:00

then they come with the "solution" to the not-making-sense problem by implementing "freedom", and sure enough there's idiots down the line wanting to stuff omlet in ear and piss out nose and be "transnourishal".

12:00

freedom was never the fucking problem.

12:01

fleadom.

12:01

'hey kiddo, how come you dun wanna set yer small intestines free ?! they want to explore world too! in their fly form'

12:03

even before the obvious "my slaves have 0 problem with no freedom, but just try and not make sense", nobody fucking ever had a problem with freedom ~as such~, because it's not fucking possible. because http://btcbase.org/log/2015-07-05#1188784

12:03

Logged on 2015-07-05 22:31 mircea_popescu: if that 1% doesn't feel the state like a glove, the state's gone. kinda like my ancient "the state may exist inasmuch as and for as long as i can't tell it's there."

12:06

(the "ancient" referenced there being http://trilema.com/2014/on-the-superiority-of-monarchy-or-adnotations-to-why-the-worst-get-on-top/#selection-155.0-155.557 ftr)

12:11

kinda lulzy how june 2014 gets to count as ancient in my head some point on or about july 2015. year-and-a-month!

12:12

(in fairness, pretty sure it's also stated in romanian, which is what that "ancient" really denotes, but anyways.)

12:15

asciilifeform incidentally, did i ever ask you what's "loper" supposed to denote ?

12:17

mircea_popescu: a critter in an old b00k : http://btcbase.org/log/2014-04-03#601590

12:17

Logged on 2014-04-03 13:30 asciilifeform: truffles: it was a minor subplot. they find these critters on jupiter, living in the gas, and decide to study them. by building a machine which transforms people into them, so they can see what their life is like. and then, for years, no one returns to be converted back. eventually one fellow comes back. and tells how much more fun it is than being human. end result: mankind vanishes, converted to lopers.

12:17

haha. nice.

12:17

clifford simak's 'city' .

12:18

i can't remember wtf "truffles" was.

12:18

is this early nubbins ?

12:18

some dark ages d00d

12:18

dun think he was nubbins, but who the fuq knows

12:18

!!reputation truffles

12:18

http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/wBzEy/?raw=true

12:19

http://btcbase.org/log/2014-04-03#601545 << o.O

12:19

Logged on 2014-04-03 13:23 chetty: well perhaps none of us will live long enough to see the next centralization

12:19

!#born truffles

12:19

2013-02-05 <truffles> why would illumi's be interested in bitcoin though

12:19

http://btcbase.org/log/2013-02-05#-138059

12:19

!#seen truffles

12:19

2014-09-10 <truffles> it bugs me when i dont resolve things..

12:19

short life.

12:22

http://btcbase.org/log/2014-04-03#601577

12:22

Logged on 2014-04-03 13:28 mircea_popescu: the point was never to agree. the point was to disagree well.

12:22

what a day that was, april 3rd 2014.

12:24

http://btcbase.org/log/2014-04-03#601593

12:24

Logged on 2014-04-03 13:30 mircea_popescu: http://24.media.tumblr.com/8af209a669c2530419926ed6f84527a6/tumblr_mk7vm9TzcU1rmcr76o1_1280.jpg

12:24

oh hey, finally a heathnlink that doesn't die in ~months

12:25

kinda why i even used tumblr. afaik the most stable of the heathentrons.

12:25

well, stable until whatever's left of 'yahoo' finally gives up ghost

12:26

( one of those surprisingly long-lived chumpatrons )

12:26

im sure it'll be "bought" because "valuable assets" etc.

12:27

anyway, naked pics outliving in the public sphere the woman pictured seems morally dubious, exactly in the vein of old margo channing acting a "25 yo, age's unimportant -- [AS LONG AS SHES TWENTYSOMETHING!!!]".

12:27

bought already iirc a coupla times. eventually will go to same glue factory as 'livejournal' etc

12:27

let the new hussies redo the old forms in their own flesh.

12:30

http://trilema.com/2018/euloras-communication-protocol-restated/#comment-126814 << my puzzlement is in re the item where you're still using keccak as a crc

12:30

in random lulz, https://www.glamour.com/story/men-metoo-survey-glamour-gq

12:30

or did the spec miss mentioning that it's keccak(userkey + serversecret) -> 32bits id

12:30

(more of the same old "omfg nobody gives a shit about our inconsequential nappy headed ho club ?!?!?!?!")

12:30

no cause to mention it, seeing how it's not in the protocol, it's server side

12:31

( and it it's a mere 32bit, still seems possible for enemy to create collisions but registering 1e12 accounts and waiting for the desired 32bit id )

12:31

*by registering

12:31

client only ever repeats ids the server produces, see. server says "here's the tree of nodes" and client may ask "what is X node"

12:31

asciilifeform cool, i get 1e12 accounts! what's a collision do iyo ?

12:31

i don't specifically know, will depend on how it's used in the box neh

12:32

if answer is 'nuffin', would like to grasp why

12:32

idea is that if collision happens ~in same client~, then can have some unexpected behaviour.

12:33

imho 32b is rather short for anyffing that you want to be unique, even without enemies

12:33

(even for addr space of pc, observe)

12:33

http://trilema.com/2018/no-such-labs-snsa-september-2018-statement/ << Trilema - No Such lAbs (S.NSA), September 2018 Statement

12:33

oh hey

12:34

how thge hell is a client gonna hold 1bn items ?

12:34

4B lol

12:34

but dunno. if dun need to , then prolly suffices.

12:35

recall birthday theorem, tho, you'll get ~certain collisions at <1% of this iirc

12:36

meanwhile the storage's limited at iirc 200 items per category, and you can carry a further 90 or so, and well... so there's gonna be 100mn bits of flotsam out in the world ?

12:36

i don't think so.

12:37

*

asciilifeform doesn't know the game board well enuff to comment meaningfully at this level, so will leave it at this

12:37

understand, i can readily make it 256 bytes, why not, i hold the hand that holds the pen.

12:37

but for every byte i add, ALL packets henceforth carry it.

12:37

right

12:40

afaik using keccak for the 32 doesn't actually win anyffing over crc32 tho

12:46

I return from a local IT business networking event. Admission and pizza were free. Everyone else was either a full stack developer who does Machine learning and e-commerce, or independent consultant of unclear purpose

12:48

asciilifeform it's simply not specified what the id is.

12:49

5.2 seems to specify as a keccak output ?

12:49

a damn.

12:49

i was thinking of the other one. the file thing. brb fixing. thanks for insisting.

12:50

np

12:50

*

asciilifeform did sit down and 'im'a actually read this thing! nao!'

12:51

fixed.

12:53

<mircea_popescu> i can't remember wtf "truffles" was. << I think you figured it as girlgendered at some point

12:55

somehow entirely blanked.

13:00

thinking about the whole it seems http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-04#1857921 is the perfectly sufficient response to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-04#1857986 crapolade : as http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-02#1857409 well points out, ALL the whole "lgbt rights" "women's rights" "civil rights" etc crapolade ever was -- A FASHION. it never had more substance than this, girls-deciding-what-hats-to-wear. there's nothing substantial

13:00

Logged on 2018-10-04 00:14 mircea_popescu: meanwhile in related lulz, https://image.ibb.co/j6U4UK/feminism.jpg

13:00

Logged on 2018-10-04 05:01 mircea_popescu: meanwhile in other lulz ~nobody caresd about, apparently kevin spacey got de-kulakized also ?

13:00

Logged on 2018-10-02 18:37 BingoBoingo: Meanwhile from other mines: "I’m active in supporting LGBT causes. My boyfriend recently said that “this whole LGBT thing has gone way too far” and that he’s no longer sure what to think about same-sex marriage, even though he had thought he supported it. Worse, he said that maybe the original civil rights movement went too far, and perhaps businesses should be allowed to racially discriminate if they want to. In fairnes

13:00

to engage in any of it, at all -- you wouldn't discourse with the girls over the relative merits of pompadours or bangs, notwithstanding the lesser value items in the sack may very well want you to.

13:00

and, as it happens to all fashions, this one meanwhile became unfashionable.

13:13

Mocky

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-04#1858140 >> for context, 16bit ids in eulora today

13:13

Logged on 2018-10-04 16:33 asciilifeform: imho 32b is rather short for anyffing that you want to be unique, even without enemies

13:14

Mocky: heh. sorta why i was orig reluctant to dig in & comment, i simply dun know enuff about the game mechanics

13:15

there's nothing less socially acceptable than last season's fashions. hence, the ~only comment on girl-interest crap, from votes to #metoo, would be http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/12/la-femme-ridicule.jpg

13:16

ie, "i'm guessing you're still doing that, on the farm ?"

13:20

and of course any pretense that "but mp, we here at conde nast ARE DOING SCIENCE" straight to http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-deal-with-pseudoscience/

~ 49 minutes ~

14:10

http://ossasepia.com/2018/10/04/results-of-testing-udp-take-1/ << Ossasepia - Results of Testing UDP - Take 1

14:13

http://qntra.net/2018/10/china-leveraged-supply-chain-to-own-adversary-computers/ << Qntra - China Leveraged Supply Chain To Own Adversary Computers

14:16

diana_coman: neato

~ 23 minutes ~

14:39

http://bimbo.club/?p=40 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 9/30/2018

14:50

diana_coman

asciilifeform, cheers!

~ 1 hours 28 minutes ~

16:19

Re: earlier fashion thread. Turns out farm country is rejecting the ole trend as well http://archive.is/RYM2v >> "are you OK with your psychology "teachers" getting "teaching" materials from this website? Because I'M NOT. My kid will NOT sit thru this [...] itspronouncedmetrosexual.com "

16:19

;tl didn't click: Picture of a "Genderbread Man" graphic

~ 37 minutes ~

16:57

BingoBoingo: lolwat

16:57

lolwat indeed

16:59

meanwhile, in trb observatory... http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/trb/10_4_ProcessBlock.txt

16:59

( spoiler : noad is up to date )

17:03

BingoBoingo: plox at your earliest convenience to pgp to asciilifeform your notes re how pizarro exit router was configged... asciilifeform is baking a pilot replacement for subj

17:04

( and, naturally, it gotta absolutely work 100% before there can be talk of plugging it in.. )

17:05

asciilifeform: Will do

17:05

BingoBoingo: ty

~ 48 minutes ~

17:54

here's a question for the forum at large as i'm thinking about the missives on my plate for today: if tbf outreach is a goal, and talking to people a primary avenue of same, given the rocky road to voice in #t these days, should the foundation host its own castle-channel?

17:59

why ?

18:05

well, say some journos or whoever want to chat. does talking to the foundation necessitate jumping through the #t voice model hoops?

18:05

these have the ability to irc that heretofore was magically undiagnosed ?

18:06

let's not worry about "what if the barn animal starts talking", in the design of the cattle prods.

18:06

they are what they are, and that is very much not people.

18:08

...but if they're very much not people in the sense of it not being worth to craft the item sensibly to minimally accommodate their particular idiocies, why contact them at all, again?

18:08

the design of the cow holding pen is built around bovine physiology and psychology, not human aesthetic values. because it's made to hold cows.

18:08

hanbot because the situation in the republic currently includes semi-domestic animals running all over the place, and in the process threatening the china.

18:08

i would like the semi-domestic animals domesticated properly, and the china safeguarded. consequently republic gotta make the step up from mongol horde into settled civilisation.

18:09

this'll not only make for much happier cows, but it'll also permit the purchase of some fine china.

18:10

asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/h9Vk6/?raw=true Let me know what more I can/should do

18:11

mircea_popescu alright then, hoops it is

18:11

not at all!

18:11

i don't expect the cows to sit on couches as a resul;t of this.

18:12

give them emal and phones and telepheric or w./e the fuck they use.

18:12

cow holding pen has cow-facing plating on the inside. yes ? you ever seen one ?

18:12

it doesn't look like your house. it looks like a cow's house.

18:12

ahaha, okay. i haven't seen the inside of a cow holding pen, no, fancy that.

18:13

it's built exclusively out of building blocks familiar to the cow and recognizable by it.

18:13

Well, that and walls to keep it from threatening the china

18:13

anyway i suppose i oughta use your bimbo's contact info then, mircea_popescu

18:14

but not zek-walls, ie, colored cardboard. cow-walls.

18:14

can be a sorta moiety-lite

18:14

hanbot if the republic requires...

18:18

in other lulz, black girl uninspiredly picked the nick "sashalotus".

18:18

ain't even fat.

18:20

hanbot in any case, teh days of http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-21#571597 are long behind. there's no need to further the pretense that pantsuit jewry enjoys personhood. it eminently does not.

18:20

Logged on 2014-03-21 13:05 ReutersEmily: Oh so glad you are here mircea_popescu

~ 1 hours 11 minutes ~

19:32

!#born SudsyForce

19:32

2013-03-01 <SudsyForce> http://i.imgur.com/81Jun1Q.jpg

19:32

http://btcbase.org/log/2013-03-01#-103923

19:32

da fuck was this then

19:32

BingoBoingo: got it. sadly i'ma have to rtfm, i am not deep expert in subj

19:33

phf http://btcbase.org/log/2013-03-01#-103915 << listen, how could this page possibly be 65.5k lines long ?!

19:33

Logged on 2013-03-01 22:30 SudsyForce: Two slave brothers, one black, one an albino, discover a treasure map which is taken from them by their foreman. They take it back but are pursued by the foreman. Originally, the foreman seeks the aid of two bounty hunters who pursue the protagonists throughout the film. At the end, both the foreman and the bounty hunters catch up with the two escaped slaves, and the foreman has a change of heart, helping to kill the bounty hunters.

19:33

there's something amiss here neh ?

19:34

mircea_popescu: it's got negative indices, too

19:34

e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2013-03-01#-41827

19:34

Logged on 2013-03-01 05:35 KRS1: yeah..wasnt always like that

19:35

i just... i don;'t recall days that huge, ever.

19:35

or hrm possibly ~those~ aint a bug

19:35

they happen when pre-dragon iirc

19:35

yes.

19:35

asciilifeform what i was looking for is our discussion of the old republic wrecking that was the "fugitive slaves act". you got link ?

19:36

hmmm

19:37

may have been in a trilema

19:40

mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2018/why-african-americans-can-never-excel-at-anything-relative-to-the-white-majority-they-cant-be-the-smartest-nor-the-poorest-nor-the-best-nor-the-neediest-nor-the-anything-else-est-not-ever/#comment-125079

19:40

o o!

19:40

tyvm

19:40

np

19:41

i got the perfect monture supporting your summary, coming out in a few hours.

19:41

pantsuit 'historians' naturally paint it as 'eeeevil southern expansion', noshit

~ 38 minutes ~

20:19

http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/KImP1/?raw=true << coupla rough drafts re http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-03#1857870 ; first specific to trustnodes wankpiece in particular, latter as a kind of generic template. mod6 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu asciilifeform et al pls to scrutinize when convenient.

20:19

Logged on 2018-10-03 23:51 mircea_popescu: hanbot lend the fellows a hand ?

20:20

hanbot: oh neato !

20:20

*

asciilifeform loox...

20:21

hanbot: imho this is entirely good, and oughta be taken up

20:21

mod6: plz to look

20:21

ben_vulpes ditto

20:22

ty asciilifeform. BingoBoingo also take a look?

20:27

i don't see a problem. maybe could be had warmer, but not clear that can be done without elongation. terseness' is a virtue, as ~nobody reads anymore.

20:27

*

mod6 reads up

20:27

just as long as we're clear "media-wannabes" includes everyone, from washpo and guardian to what have you.

20:28

i guess i gotta get that girl a real machine now, so she can actually v and stuff.

20:37

mircea_popescu we're clear.

20:39

jesus mary and joseph

20:39

"looks good to me" ?!

20:39

mod6: hm?

20:39

This is the first chance I've had to even read this trustnodes article

20:40

mod6: the article is pretty sad

20:40

mod6: we're discussing hanbot's answr

20:40

Yeah, I wanted to get a bit of background here before I do. On-deck next :]

20:41

now I get mp's -10 on thebluematt

20:42

http://trilema.com/2018/stephen-douglas-speaking-at-ottawa-ill-august-21th-1858/ << Trilema - Stephen Douglas, speaking at Ottawa, Ill. August 21th 1858.

20:46

hanbot: ty, reading. Just got back from epic beachwalk

20:46

*

BingoBoingo wasn't aware Illinois has an ottawa

20:48

hanbot: Thank you, I really like both of these. I don't think I would change a word. Nice job!

20:48

I also, really appreciate you stepping up to help me out. Seriously.

20:49

hanbot: Looks really good. I can't think of changes which would keep it something that might get bites.

20:54

mircea_popescu: Maybe the Foundation could pay for the machine, since she'll be doing work on behalf of the Foundation?

20:54

very kind, but nah,

20:55

Ok, just thought I'd offer.

20:55

BingoBoingo more proeminent back then.

20:55

congressional district etc.

21:07

All, an update from Pizarro: The price point that Pizarro will be using for the month of October is $6170 per BTC.

21:18

roughly 400 spread eh?

21:19

Yeah.

21:20

We're willing to purchase more fiat at some point later in the month of course.

21:24

gotta say, I'm eventually going to cancel my service if this "we pulled the price out of our asses, and here it is" thing doesn't turn into a process somebody surfaces on a blog somewhere.

21:24

I thought the point of doing business in a WoT was to avoid that kind of thing.

21:26

It was not pulled out of our "asses". We had a difficult time finding takers to sell us fiat this month. Late in the game, we came to a price point with jurov. This was the quoted amount.

21:26

you came to a price point with jurov where?

21:27

This was conducted behind closed doors.

21:27

do you see my point yet?

21:27

trinque: hopefully lobbes' auction bot will be available next month.

21:27

o hey, rehash of this!

21:27

this prevents jurov from saying "I jurov bid $x for $y" here?

21:28

mod6 is the idea jurov could not have done what i did, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-27#1837995 specifically, because... what is it, he's decided not to speak in channel anymore and you had tjhe option of either forcing the point or getting the dough ? or is this just terribly mismanaged altogether, or what ?

21:28

Logged on 2018-07-27 16:33 mircea_popescu: !Qauction 1bn 168 8.2k wFF q0

21:29

So here's what went down.

21:30

Last few months, jurov took a heavy hit on FX when he would quote us, send the wires, and then we would finally send him the coins at the end. He also was apparently butting up against some possible fiat limits.

21:30

this also behind closed doors ?

21:30

Since we were getting a bit desperate to get some fiat purchased, I offered to him to send the coins first, and he could mitigate that FX risk. We worked out the details in a PGP.

21:30

Yes.

21:31

is there some advantage i'm not seeing to the approach ?

21:31

for jurov, apparently!

21:31

i'm not even sure of that much.

21:31

I'd love to do this a different way. I just felt like, other than alf spending money that he had saved for a possible emergency trip, we didn't have a lot of other options.

21:32

you had no options other than to keep things quiet that you knew sooner or later will have to make public and also knew the people you'll make them public to will take a dim view of your keeping them secret ?

21:32

mod6: i'ma do the next one ( given as BingoBoingo got his crate ) , this oughta give enuff time for lobbesbot & some semblance of civilized life to start

21:33

I actually didn't think it was any big deal, as previous months I had made these deals behind closed doors with jurov as wel.

21:33

*well

21:33

and trinque complained regularly.

21:33

mod6: and no closed doors plox, we'll work out the price right here.

21:33

if you do manage to lose his custom, that's what, 1/3 of your income ?

21:33

mod6: based on , idk, crystal balls.

21:33

mod6: suppose I start charging you deposit fees on deedbot *arbitrarily*

21:33

and notice that I don't, because wtf?

21:34

trinque: let's say you were selling usd, instead of jurov ; how wouldja pick a price ? ( serious q, i dun have what could be considered a civilized & deterministic algo presently )

21:34

how do i lean on him, "trinque, stick with the republican isp!" "but mp, LOOK WHAT THEY DID TO MY BABY!". what do i say at that juncture ?

21:34

I will back away from all of this going forward. I'll let BingoBoingo handle this.

21:34

I apologize trinque.

21:34

what's with the angular responses? just do business here in the forum where it belongs.

21:35

trinque: entirely meant as non-flame. i like selling usd occasionally ( did first , what , 6mo of pizarro... ) but i do not have a proper algo currently.

21:35

I'm sorry, I was just acting to do what I thought was best for Pizarro and it's customers. I seem to be getting it wrong, somehow.

21:35

I could've weighed the decision to buy against your discount, which would've put you in a better position than your deal with jurov, and meanwhile saved you from the perception that you're not all that clued in on what the forum does.

21:35

in fairness to jurov (whom, knowing the man, i can readily believe took a fx beating), wouldn't his implicit donation deserve the implicit recognition ?

21:36

I suppose all I know about jurov right now is silence, which is a related problem.

21:36

i'ma have to agree with trinque , i have nfi where jurov's been hiding out and specifically why

21:37

some folx have a very heavy meatspace life ( e.g. phf ) but i'm not aware of why jurov.

21:37

*

trinque has an extremely heavy meatspace life, but checks in every time he can

21:38

*

mircea_popescu will pass this "busy meatspace life" thing altogether.

21:40

Going forward we are going to have to do open air in the log bidding. Three increasingly urgent attempts during the second half of September by mod6 to get bidders are recorded in the logs http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850967 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-23#1852917 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855384

21:40

Logged on 2018-09-17 19:04 mod6: Also folks, Pizarro needs to purchase some fiat, so if you're interested, can start up an auction if you like, or can do WU or whatever. Minimum $500, please. Let us know if interested.

21:40

Logged on 2018-09-23 01:43 mod6: Pizarro is looking to purchase some fiat for next month. Please reach out to me if you would like to sell some dollars! Thanks in advance.

21:40

Logged on 2018-09-28 16:30 mod6: We still need fiat, any takers?

21:41

BingoBoingo: hand-cranked auction ? i see no prob with this ( until we have robot )

21:42

BingoBoingo: aside from the problem where mod6 proclaimed one on 17th and nobody came forward

21:42

asciilifeform: Hand cranked auction has long history of being a thing

21:42

<asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: aside from the problem where mod6 proclaimed one on 17th and nobody came forward << This is a problem

21:43

But bot auction can also recieve deafening silence from bidders

21:43

"and anyway if I asked her she'd just say no"

21:43

trinque: in your pov mod6's http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850967 does not constitute 'ask' ?

21:43

Logged on 2018-09-17 19:04 mod6: Also folks, Pizarro needs to purchase some fiat, so if you're interested, can start up an auction if you like, or can do WU or whatever. Minimum $500, please. Let us know if interested.

21:44

why's this ? not formatted correctly, or wat

21:44

if this is working for you just fine, keep it.

21:44

I would've preferred to know of jurov's bid, so I could counter

21:45

trinque: this is 100% fair imho

21:45

BingoBoingo, mod6 : trinque is entirely right , bids oughta be open strictly.

21:45

no moar whispers.

21:45

gotta let the money work neh?

21:45

The bid came in yesterday evening

21:46

<asciilifeform> BingoBoingo, mod6 : trinque is entirely right , bids oughta be open strictly. << Open bidding going forward. Bot or no bot.

21:46

We needed to get the ball rolling here, I went with it. I did ask you if you wanted to buy some, but you declined.

21:47

mod6: i'd happily work 100% of'em if i had what with.

21:47

but imho the civilized thing to do is proper forum bids.

21:48

( e.g. asciilifeform : million! trinque : nut, 10k ! mircea_popescu : idjit! 1k ... etc )

21:48

i dunno why this thing with the bot seems to satisfy me only. is it truly impossible to sell chunks of fiat for some reason ?

21:49

well we're buying, rather than selling

21:49

( fiatola, that is )

21:50

so if jurov has a chunk of fiat, he can offer it and pizarro can bid and i guess trinque could bid more if he wanted to. this is dysfunctional ?

21:50

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-01#1846350 << some history around 'manual'

21:50

Logged on 2018-09-01 00:13 mod6: i'm just saying, doing it 'botless'. like I say, "this auction is open for 72 hours, closes on X date at X time. Selling 1 BTC for USD. Winner of auction sends whatever wires seller specifies."

21:50

mircea_popescu: this is exactly what's wanted

21:51

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-27#1837995 not good format to repeat because ... ?

21:51

Logged on 2018-07-27 16:33 mircea_popescu: !Qauction 1bn 168 8.2k wFF q0

21:51

mircea_popescu: it was my understanding that this bot is being retrofitted by lobbes for the necessary units

21:52

you must've skipped some log then, do you mean http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-09#1848940 ?

21:52

Logged on 2018-09-09 19:00 mircea_popescu: lobbes forum schmorum, if you de-ecu it ima kick it off #eulora and have someone else make a different one.

21:52

nah got that, it's to be a separate proggy iirc

21:52

it is ?!

21:52

unconnected with eulora's

21:52

no ?

21:53

mod6: you did ask me in private, which I appreciate, but that's not how I'd prefer to do this, as per all the ^

21:53

afaik all you get is reverse auction (at a significant later date, once he's well done with rewriting the whole thing).

21:53

mircea_popescu: ok, is what i thought

21:53

<mircea_popescu> afaik all you get is reverse auction (at a significant later date, once he's well done with rewriting the whole thing). << This is what I recall. Reverse auction denominated in ECU

21:53

trinque: Got it.

21:53

entirely not clear to me what's blocking about this. what's blocing about this ?

21:53

mod6: you asked him before 17th, or after ?

21:54

and it's not as though I can't eat +-5%, but why, when learned folks have a process for narrowing those kinds of gaps, and don't need a bot to do it.

21:54

i'm trying to grasp what happened here, why no bids on 17th, or 18th, or any other day until last night?

21:54

After for sure. I don't have the exact date, but I'd say it was in the last week of september -- I reached out to a few people directly since I wasn't getting any takers in either #pizarro or #trielam.

21:54

or there were ? but not where i could see'em ?

21:54

can't say " !Qauction 1bn 168 8.2k wFF q0" because gotta say !Qrauction 1bn 168 8.2k wFF q0 instead ?

21:54

*#trilema

21:54

maybe I hear jurov's bid and I say fuck it, my next month's btc purchase happens today instead.

21:55

to translate the difference between "i'm selling 8k fiats" and "i wish to buy 8k fiats" ? is the specificity of ammounts on pizarro side such a huge deal for you lot ?

21:55

i had formed the impression the main problem's finding lots, not cutting them to specified sizes.

21:57

mircea_popescu: it was my parsing of 'i'ma kick it' that you dun want any units other than btc and ecu in there ?

21:57

asciilifeform i suspect what might've happened is that ~everyone is waiting indefinitely for arbitrary and unexamined expectations to be satisfied, and no public discussion available to remedy this.

21:57

mircea_popescu: trying to fix !

21:57

let's fix

21:58

the way the auction works, is that you can currently sell any one thing you wish, for ecu, which are these account bitcoins.

21:58

the way the auction will work, is that you will be able to both sell and buy any one thing you wish, also for ecu.

21:58

trinque what do you need to feel yerself in a civilized house of commerce instead of orc den. mod6 what do we need re fiatolade purchasing. jurov what do you need to start fucking showing up in forum.

21:58

what this development buys you is NOT that "i can now trade fiats", but that "i can now buy SPECIFIC lots of fiat, whereas before i was stuck bidding on whatever lots someone offered".

21:59

right, specific, like erry civilized auction block worx, 'i have 900kg of iridium', not 'i have iridium!'

21:59

it ~seems to me~ this difference is not worth a postage stamp, if indeed i understand the description of pizarro's situation mod6 is making correctly, that is, "we have trouble finding lots of fiat to buy, not finding exact chunks".

21:59

asciilifeform that's not the meaning involved.

21:59

hm?

22:00

the way auction bot currently works, and has worked for 100s of auctions worth 10s of bitcoin, is that any one party with some fiat, can say "i have this much fiat and will let it go for no less than this much ecu".

22:01

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-01#1846358

22:01

Logged on 2018-09-01 00:19 mod6: ah, i see, so for instance trinque could say, "selling 4000 USD for ECU", exactly like yourself with the last one

22:01

this, as far as i can tell, is perfectly useful to pizarro as things stand now, and perfecly approachable to everyone, and a permanent solution to the record and advertisement requirements people have.

22:01

for SOME REASON you seem to be waiting for a (MUCH LATER) upgrade which would permit you to advertise ~i want to buy EXACTLY X fiats AND NO OTHER SUM NO MATTERE WHAT HAPPENS!!!~.

22:01

mircea_popescu: plox to clarify what http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-09#1848940 was about, in this case. i was under the specific impression that auction of items other than ecu is forbidden in mircea_popescu's bot.

22:01

Logged on 2018-09-09 19:00 mircea_popescu: lobbes forum schmorum, if you de-ecu it ima kick it off #eulora and have someone else make a different one.

22:02

notwithstanding this doesn't seem to actually be your position -- you do not in fact have the option to so wait, because you may not engage in this course that fucks over the record keeping and advertising obligations you have.

22:03

hmm

22:03

all auctions must ~settle in something~. it is greatly beneficial to have unique settlement, on the basis of 100s of years of auctioning experiencve in teh commercial world. just like lloyds will trade in antique vases and modern soiled underpants, BUT ALWAYS SETTLE IT IN POUNDS, just so lobbesbot will deal in disgusting goop or unified dosidoes, but always settle in ecu.

22:03

i dun see why we need the exact sums thing

22:03

I think, we'd be fine doing the reverse (if possible) of the log I linked above. "BUYING 1000 USD for ECU".

22:03

you're in this joining me, who's similarly not seen for a few months now.

22:03

lobbes

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-05#1858369 << this is correct btw; new auctionbot (will be named 'auctionbot') will allow !Xsell and !Xbuy (both denominated in ecu) see also: http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2018/07/auctionbot-eta-and-status-report/

22:03

Logged on 2018-10-05 01:53 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> afaik all you get is reverse auction (at a significant later date, once he's well done with rewriting the whole thing). << This is what I recall. Reverse auction denominated in ECU

22:04

but for some reason quite square heads stuck with a collection of balls.

22:04

mod6: you've got it backwards. in this model I'd go list my available fiats alongside everybody else, is my understanding

22:04

trinque: this seems to me to be Right Thing

22:04

Oh, I suppose it has to be the first way I linked then 'eh?

22:05

but what i don't yet grasp is how to make this go with mircea_popescu's 'settle in ecu'

22:05

this would look like an ideal position for pizarro, as you'd have far more of a sense in advance what fiat you may be able to pick up.

22:05

it's possibly not the best thing, and yes work to better it is underway, but you seem to me in the position of the fellow who is starving with cheese in hand for lack of steak.

22:05

how do i list a bag of usd for auction in a bot where only ecu and btc are units.

22:05

trinque no, i know. it's just...

22:05

asciilifeform is the example provided not edifying ?!

22:06

something's not clicking in my head, i can't seem to turn it into an algo

22:06

i have a bag of x usd. what do i do next.

22:06

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-27#1837995 <<

22:06

Logged on 2018-07-27 16:33 mircea_popescu: !Qauction 1bn 168 8.2k wFF q0

22:06

"i have 8200 fiats which i'm willing to wire, will take at least 1 btc for it"

22:08

*

asciilifeform looks for the rtfm for Qauction

22:08

to the undying shame (of the soi-dissant "banking system" foremost), that trade did not actually complete. but i daresay it did not complete because third parties idiocy, not because the auction mechanism.

22:08

( what does the 1bn do ? the 168 ? wFF ? q0 ? )

22:08

lobbes

!Qhelp

22:08

lobbes: http://lobbesblog.com/lobbesbotcommands

22:08

lobbes

asciilifeform: ^^

22:08

ty lobbes

22:09

asciilifeform 1bn ecu = 1 btc. 168 is hours to live, here 1 week. "wFF" is a symbol i ad-hoc'd, "wired filthy fiats". explained in the next line. q0 is just a joke as to the poor quality of the fiats in question, has no bearing in this context.

22:09

ok figured out from doc, all but last 2, which mircea_popescu explained above

22:09

the great flexibility of this thing allows you to make your own symbols and so on, it's really well made.

22:10

so mircea_popescu dun actually have objection that the item being auctioned is not euloric ?

22:10

then we can use the existing mechanism, mod6

22:10

what's the ecu to btc bridge, in-game, or requires another sale?

22:10

if at all used, this system would ~certainly~ quell any sort of even vaguely possible complaint in the vein of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-05#1858281

22:10

Logged on 2018-10-05 01:24 trinque: gotta say, I'm eventually going to cancel my service if this "we pulled the price out of our asses, and here it is" thing doesn't turn into a process somebody surfaces on a blog somewhere.

22:10

because it'd run in the obvious -- "you don't like it, put some grease in, what's keeping you".

22:10

asciilifeform: well, that's just the thing. anyone who wanted to sell fiats, didn't start up an auction.

22:11

trinque parties are at liberty to settle either way.

22:11

trinque: good q. i for instance am not equipped to process ecu atm

22:11

traditionally settlement was offered indistinctly in either format.

22:11

ah ok.

22:11

ecu is an ~account currency~. you know what those are ?

22:11

think so

22:11

more or less what's sitting in the deedbot db

22:11

i pasted that log line above because i was hinting to readers "hey, if you want to buy pizarro's coins, this is how you do it." But no one even asked.

22:11

symbolic, abstractly defined denominations, like the roman empire's solidus, or what have you. they don't even have to exist to be used.

22:12

mod6 maybe a lot of this isn't well understood, we got a situation of everything waiting for everything else.

22:12

yeah, i think as people see a few of these take place, it'll make a bit more sense.

22:12

right.

22:13

mod6: the hinting thing doesn't work. put a blog post out and give direction, pizarro's process is to ...

22:13

any regular buyers of btc should just throw out an auction for some minimal amount. Say $500 USD, and once pizarro wins those aucutions, they'll get the hang of it.

22:13

well i think part of the problem may be he himself didn't well understand this before right now.

22:13

it's no problem; this is why I threw a friendly punch instead of quitting the service.

22:14

*

mod6 rubs eye

22:14

lol

22:17

anyway, the only important magic number is the 10e9 ecu = 1 btc value. otherwise the whole thing's open, you can just say i dunno, "will only take BTC" as a comment in the next line, or w/e.

22:17

then this sounds 100% usable.

22:17

byoa.

22:18

mod6 didja already assent to jurov's thing, or can we start one of these nao

22:19

in any case to date danielpbarron 's been on the ball facilitating conversions also.

22:19

It's already in motion. Sent him the coins yesterday.

22:19

aite

22:19

next one we oughta do as mircea_popescu described tho

22:19

asciilifeform i wouldn't go back on a deal. but the past is the past, what's to keep you from doing more for the future.

22:19

and afaik no reason not to set it in motion nao

22:19

Besides, we really need to get the money moving; even if we wanted to do an auction now, we need $5000.

22:20

mircea_popescu: was asking to see if there were a deal. apparently yes. and no we won't go back on it.

22:20

I'm not confident that we could get that done as quickly as we need it. I did ask, a lot if people were interested. But no takers. But anyone is free to start up an auction now.

22:20

but for next one oughta use mircea_popescu's bot, since he has no objection to auction of non-euloric goodies

22:20

And we'd bid, because I'd like to have some extra cusion in our account down there.

22:20

mod6 i think that's very sensible, have some cash on hand jic.

22:20

^

22:21

I'd love it, make me a helluv a lot less nervous -- as I was for the last 10 days.

22:22

and i expect as the thing starts getting some history behind it, time intervals can narrow out, removing most of the fx unpleasantness.

22:22

and besides, a forwards btc market can't hurt anything.

22:22

lol, shift-q is remarkably close to ctrl-w

22:22

heck, half the fucking reason we even did pizarro was to get this going, if yo urecall.

22:22

trinque i burn "close" shortcuts with plasma cutters.

22:22

DUMBEST THING EVER.

22:23

who the fuck ever closes anything, and if they do why;'d they open it.

22:23

yeah, that one must die

22:32

!Qauction 310080000 336 2000 usd WU

22:32

AUCTION # 366 STARTED by trinque: 2000 usd WU Opening: 310080000 coppers Ending: 2018-10-19 02:32:35 UTC (336 hours)

22:37

http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-05#1858434 << none whatsoever! same mechanism was famously used to sell a notebook i wrote in, and other things. the only fixed thing is the settlement point, and for good reason of the nature of macroeconomic wisdom.

22:37

Logged on 2018-10-05 02:10 asciilifeform: so mircea_popescu dun actually have objection that the item being auctioned is not euloric ?

22:37

makes sense.

22:38

i don't have a ready list of the many varieties of items therein sold, maybe lobbes keeps it as part of his eventual marketing efforts, but anyway. it's known diversity.

22:38

one day may even sell slavegirls.

22:38

!QBid 336 305763640

22:38

mod6: Error: Auction Id # 336 has ended

22:38

mod6 366

22:38

oh, was looking at the '336' line from trinque. herp.

22:39

!QBid 366 305763640

22:39

mod6: Error: Try bidding moar. Starting Bid is 310.08mn, you bid 305763640

22:39

(for all the interested parties : lobbesbot announces the current slate of auctions hourly in #eulora, and privately on request. see the very useful manual lobbes wrote for it.)

22:39

Oh, starting bid. Got it.

22:39

!QBid 366 310080000

22:39

AUCTION # 366: 2000 usd WU Heard: 310.08mn from mod6 Ending: 2018-10-19 02:32:35 UTC (335 hours 53 mins)

22:40