Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-09-17 | 2018-09-19 → ↓
00:20 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1851083 << exactly.
00:20 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 20:44 diana_coman: the question+kick&ban sounds good to me - kicking "silent" aka "I'm part of it because I hang about in here doing nothing" is even needed by now, I'd say; I can also see very well its usefulness for other channels; while atm #eulora tolerates the allah-spam, it could certainly do without it especially at less-quiet times
~ 1 hours 31 minutes ~
01:52 deedbot http://bimbo.club/?p=15 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 9/07/2018
~ 56 minutes ~
02:48 diana_coman thanks asciilifeform! I'll read it and get back to you
02:48 lobbesbot diana_coman: Sent 3 hours and 51 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2557 .
~ 6 hours 9 minutes ~
08:57 diana_coman asciilifeform, confirmed working nicely with its own tests + adapted client/server test as used previously
09:02 diana_coman to round this whole thing up: 2 days ago it seemed I had only the gnat.sockets/ thin layer option which wasn't fit for purpose; now I have 2 more options: 1. ave1's ADA implementation of UDP sockets using directly ASM inline 2. asciilifeform's light UDP sockets lib that uses C code for needed UDP sockets calls but provides an Ada wrapper so that any code using the lib can call Ada methods only
09:05 diana_coman for completeness, version 3. GNAT.Sockets.Thin that is an Ada wrapper on C system calls containing however questionable approaches (e.g. returning access to String so effectively a pointer but worse than this: allocating memory on the heap and leaving the de-alloc to the caller...)
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09:06 diana_coman version 4. GNAT.Sockets that is built on top of 3. above and mainly serves to force Streams for everything
09:09 diana_coman asciilifeform, if I understand your lib correctly, it aims to expose only a strict & minimal set of UDP calls; atm it uses C code for the actual socket part but in principle this layer could be replaced at a later time by some Ada layer while keeping the rest as it is, correct?
09:11 diana_coman as it is, the selected minimal set of ops seems ok, except perhaps the fixed message length - I think it's more of a maximum length needed in practice, at least for current version of S.MG protocol
09:11 diana_coman asciilifeform, any reason why your lib does not support any options at all to be set for the UDP socket?
09:12 diana_coman http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-9-18#431369 -> refers to http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-9-16#429804
09:12 mimisbrunnr Logged on 2018-09-18 12:37 diana_coman: to round this whole thing up: 2 days ago it seemed I had only the gnat.sockets/ thin layer option which wasn't fit for purpose; now I have 2 more options: 1. ave1's ADA implementation of UDP sockets using directly ASM inline 2. asciilifeform's light UDP sockets lib that uses C code for needed UDP sockets calls but provides an Ada wrapper so that any code using the lib can call Ada methods
09:12 asciilifeform diana_coman: afaik the only useful option re udp avail on linux is reuseaddr
09:12 asciilifeform and i set it
09:14 asciilifeform diana_coman: observe, my lib is somewhat unorthodox, it tries to abstract entirely over the os socket, nails down a fixed packet length, ipv4 4evah, no 'nonblockisms' - who wants these, can implement via ada task; no dnsism supported at all, etc
09:15 diana_coman yes, I'm not crying over those
09:15 asciilifeform diana_coman: anyffing useful and conspicuously missing ?
09:15 diana_coman I can see your point there; it was literally a question to understand the reasoning behind the choice, nothing more
09:15 asciilifeform aa
09:16 asciilifeform reasoning was twofold, 1) 'want short coad that can be read in half hour'
09:17 asciilifeform 2) 'when i ditch unix, the api should continue to make exactly same amt of sense as before'
09:17 diana_coman as I was saying earlier: atm the fixed packet length might clash a bit with what I need but it's not even fully clear it's not *better* to have a fixed packet length anyway
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09:17 asciilifeform imho it is
09:17 asciilifeform tho it can be debated exactly which length, as i noted in the proggy
09:18 asciilifeform there's a 'max never-fragged', afaik 508 byte
09:18 diana_coman asciilifeform, myeah, the actual length is likely to be different at the very least, but that's not a big issue
09:18 asciilifeform but there is also a 'min that will be reassembled on most routers', iirc 580
09:19 asciilifeform there is also a max possible, iirc 65520 or near
09:19 asciilifeform can freely experiment, simply turn the knob ( dun forget to turn it on both ends.. )
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09:20 diana_coman on a different note: I really had trouble coming up with a *full and reliable* set of errors that the UDP ops in linux might throw up; from linux man pages I gathered the unhelpful "all errors from IP may be returned by recv /send" - and looking at that list, it makes for a waaay bigger set than what I see you considered
09:20 asciilifeform diana_coman: imho variable-length-datagram is for the birds. hence i jettisoned good bit of complexity by omitting it
09:20 asciilifeform diana_coman: i handle all eggogs
09:21 asciilifeform what i do not do, is to ~distinguish~ all of the,
09:21 asciilifeform *them
09:21 asciilifeform observe how the eggogology is organized.
09:21 diana_coman ah, because send/recv will return -1 for error whatever it might be anyway
09:21 asciilifeform correct.
09:24 asciilifeform my approach to eggogology is same as to rest of unix liquishit -- when possible, imprison it, not bring out, so long as proggy behaves reasonably
09:26 asciilifeform user is told e.g. 'bind eggoged', 'send eggoged', rather than linux-specific whys ( and for that matter, on a working box udp never eggogs , i haven't even any notion presently how to make it , aside from bind()ing a nonexistent local ip)
09:28 diana_coman right; in terms of simplicity I can't say atm that I'm able to see anything that can be further cut off from the udp part itself indeed (the string <-> ip part doesn't seem to fit in there necessarily but that's not udp per se anyway)
09:31 asciilifeform diana_coman: imho that functionality belongs in a udp lib ( given as it demands knowledge of how ip is represented ) but prolly oughta be a troo ada thing, not a callout. however implementing it would double the mass of the proggy
09:31 asciilifeform so i left it like-so
09:32 asciilifeform makes for an easy 2box demo, incidentally.
09:33 asciilifeform it also shows how to output strings in a civilized way, for n00bz.
09:34 asciilifeform ( returns fixed-len )
09:34 diana_coman asciilifeform, the udp lib can request it in a certain format; the rest is layered on top, I don't really see why it needs string representation or eating a string; anyways, splitting hairs on this
09:35 asciilifeform diana_coman: i already nailed down a format, observe, ip is stored always as native-endian 32bit.
09:35 asciilifeform so if your own coad is compatible with this form, can safely jettison the string glue
09:36 diana_coman aha
09:36 asciilifeform diana_coman: virtually all nontrivial programs eat or display an ip in txt form somewhere, i've found. incl the demo. hence, included.
09:37 diana_coman re eggogging udp on a machine, perhaps trying to send something above the UDP packet limit I'd say (it's ~64k iirc)
09:37 asciilifeform slightly under 64k. try it.
09:37 asciilifeform ought produce send eggog.
09:38 diana_coman I'd expect that, yes; it was re <asciilifeform> user is told e.g. 'bind eggoged', 'send eggoged', rather than linux-specific whys ( and for that matter, on a working box udp never eggogs , i haven't even any notion presently how to make it , aside from bind()ing a nonexistent local ip)
09:38 asciilifeform aa
09:39 asciilifeform but yes, you wont get anyffing more detailed than in which unixism was the eggog ( strace will give it to you tho ). idea being. udp does not ever eggog during everyday operation on a correctly configged box
09:40 asciilifeform you'd need something like a dead iron nic.
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09:42 asciilifeform incidentally, my lib can be asmed just as readily as ave1 asmed the classical 'all of tcp stack' glue. ( sadly i dun currently have the free hands to do this )
09:46 diana_coman it's not fully clear to me if it's something needed /desired atm; at any rate, compared to where I was 2 days ago, it's great - all of a sudden it went from "need to do this from scratch, ugh" to "there are 2 republican libs with 2 approaches, which one fits best my needs?" ; I'm rather delighted to be honest
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09:46 diana_coman anyways, will give this some more thought
09:52 asciilifeform diana_coman: lemme know if you think of further 'why did he do that'-s.
09:53 asciilifeform incidentally i built an' tested with ave1's gnat, a+++ worx.
09:54 asciilifeform still needs a bigendian test tho.
09:54 asciilifeform ( maybe trinque , if he has time )
09:56 asciilifeform ave1: know what would be neat ? ~raw~ packet support. ( recall mircea_popescu's 'i hate udp' thread )
09:56 asciilifeform but this is for the fyootoor, when we start adaizing kernel, perhaps.
09:59 diana_coman asciilifeform, ah, I forgot to mention it explicitly but yes, my tests include ave1's gnat as well as adacore's gnat; this is pretty much for any ada code I test
10:00 asciilifeform mine also.
10:00 asciilifeform ( i still have boxen with the old gnat, except for rk, where only ave1's gnat exists )
10:04 mircea_popescu i wonder where he keeps all this voice.
10:05 mircea_popescu diana_coman: to round this whole thing up: 2 days ago it seemed I had only the gnat.sockets/ thin layer option which wasn't fit for purpose; now I have 2 more options: << it's been an epic few days! (what happened ?)
10:06 mircea_popescu and of course, how could one forget to quote the wisdom of the ages : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-23#1789029
10:06 a111 Logged on 2018-03-23 04:14 douchebag: Okay, why do you guys liek arguing so much? Is this why you guys don't get anything done?
10:06 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'партия сказала -- надо!, комсомол ответил -- есть!'(tm)(r)
10:06 diana_coman I guess what happened is that deedbot gave a lot of voice!!
10:07 diana_coman asciilifeform, ahahaha, fits
10:07 mircea_popescu надо << NADA!!!
10:07 asciilifeform lol
10:11 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851102 << this is such, SUCH terribly bad practice, srsly now. scope the fucking memory handling, so both ends always happen in the same context. either the caller allocates and then also deallocates, diana_coman style, or else the callee allocates and deallocates. none of this insane scope bridging jesus christ.
10:11 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 13:05 diana_coman: for completeness, version 3. GNAT.Sockets.Thin that is an Ada wrapper on C system calls containing however questionable approaches (e.g. returning access to String so effectively a pointer but worse than this: allocating memory on the heap and leaving the de-alloc to the caller...)
10:11 mircea_popescu who even does this. in c of all things, what, is it a death wish that can't be otherwise expressed ?
10:12 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: better still, no allocations, period. ( as in my item )
10:12 asciilifeform 100% stack-powered, fixed space.
10:12 mircea_popescu if at all possibru.
10:13 mircea_popescu come to think of it, if large bulks of memory have to cross call boundries, something ELSE is almost certainly fucking broken
10:13 mircea_popescu and no "my design, in being inexistent, therefore can not be broken" doesn't work for ideal objects. THESE can be both absent and broken, pandora's blessing.
10:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it astonished me how folx were able to so elaborately break such a simple thing.
10:15 asciilifeform ( srsly there is no reason for a udptron to allocate anyffing whatsoever , much less to return pointers )
10:18 asciilifeform btw mircea_popescu , my article is pretty short, should nao be possible to answer the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850792 q mircea_popescu posed.
10:18 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 13:44 asciilifeform: i'ma disagree that '~same' , but this will only be possible to explain once mine's posted.
10:19 mircea_popescu it's obviously enough how laughable monstrosities like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-02#1846790 were even produced in the first place. "why does this thing leak more kb/s than an old style modem ?" "because we do all the memory handling inside a live octopus"
10:19 a111 Logged on 2018-09-02 02:04 mircea_popescu: well ? how EXACTLY did the entire "torzilla development community" spring up ? what the fuck is a lindsey kuper ?
10:24 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851118 << for crypto applications it actually is better.
10:24 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 13:17 diana_coman: as I was saying earlier: atm the fixed packet length might clash a bit with what I need but it's not even fully clear it's not *better* to have a fixed packet length anyway
10:26 mircea_popescu moreover, it's not clear to me that varying the packet size AND the packet count rather than just the packet count is a wise move. it's not clear to me what it buys, especially considering there's externalities (udp packets under a certain size travel better than over ; this for technical reasons unrelated to other considerations).
10:26 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i wrote the item originally for gossipd experimentations. udp gives a max practical packet length ( what it is , remains to be determined ) and if given proggy's protocol needs variably-sized ones, you can pad with rng.
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10:27 mircea_popescu what it is is certainly <1kb say. wasting the occasional portion of a kb is not so unlike wasting the occasional portion of a 64 bit register to represent a boolean value.
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10:27 asciilifeform correct
10:27 mircea_popescu people finally wised up to the fact it's insane to bitflip a single variable into the ground "to save space". i suspect ~same realisation i nthe wings re udp
10:28 asciilifeform yer nic already sends ~1kb frames, regardless of what os does
10:28 mircea_popescu right.
10:28 mircea_popescu talk about tower of insanity, btw. THAT.
10:29 asciilifeform it's a pretty tall tower, yes
10:31 * asciilifeform will bbl, teatime
10:33 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851125 << incidentally, we very much want to do this. diana_coman mind setting up a large testing harness, send a soup of all packets lengths from 1 to 65536 bytes each hour back and forth for a week or two ?
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10:33 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 13:19 asciilifeform: can freely experiment, simply turn the knob ( dun forget to turn it on both ends.. )
10:37 mircea_popescu (by soup i mean, don't send them in order of size, but in some random order each hour)
10:41 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851153 << not entirely dead, still gotta do the init dance.
10:41 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 13:40 asciilifeform: you'd need something like a dead iron nic.
10:45 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851155 << speaking of which, what's our next step here ? 1. wanna do cpu timing/load comparisons on the two libs ? 2. say that given the nature of the task (many different folk are expected to implement clients on various platforms) thin c is better than straight asm because more widely spoken and also presumably more portable/less friable ? 3. something else ?
10:45 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 13:46 diana_coman: it's not fully clear to me if it's something needed /desired atm; at any rate, compared to where I was 2 days ago, it's great - all of a sudden it went from "need to do this from scratch, ugh" to "there are 2 republican libs with 2 approaches, which one fits best my needs?" ; I'm rather delighted to be honest
10:48 mircea_popescu incidentally ave1 what was your process there ? did you compile a higher language original (what, c ?) and then desasm the resulting object code ? followed by a handpass through the result, neating & trimming things out ? or did you start with a blank page and a legal pad ?
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~ 32 minutes ~
11:20 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i suspect that he followed same method as described in his http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-2-no-c item ( which i suggested a long time ago ), simply take the calls & translate by hand into the linux abi convention
11:20 mircea_popescu possibru
11:21 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-29#1791027 << thread.
11:21 a111 Logged on 2018-03-29 19:01 asciilifeform: ave1: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/F0CTl/?raw=true << demo.asm ; http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/7Q0AV/?raw=true << Makefile
11:21 asciilifeform ( specifically re http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-29#1791028 )
11:21 a111 Logged on 2018-03-29 19:02 asciilifeform: ave1: illustrated is the use of stack frame to get cmdline args; and the use of raw SYSCALL to , e.g., get file size, open it, mmap over it, then dump its contents to stdout, then close, quit
11:22 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851201 << this would be a very interesting experiment. keep in mind that the result is heavily path-dependent tho
11:22 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 14:33 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851125 << incidentally, we very much want to do this. diana_coman mind setting up a large testing harness, send a soup of all packets lengths from 1 to 65536 bytes each hour back and forth for a week or two ?
11:23 asciilifeform ( some routers will frag & reassemble 'obese' packets, others -- drop )
11:23 mircea_popescu gotta start with a path
11:23 mircea_popescu seems uy to uk as fine as can be had, that's what, 3 intercons.
11:23 asciilifeform lol except for where it'll go through nyc.nsa..
11:24 asciilifeform but yes i expect will find out, who frags, who not, who mutilates.
11:25 asciilifeform ( btw the standard reassembly method is quite braindamaged, those folx never apparently heard of e.g. luby )
11:26 asciilifeform my orig application called for 'no frag', given as already luby, so why also have ??? in the mix ruining the impedance match
11:31 mircea_popescu meanwhile at the lulzfarm, "What do you need to know about me? I'm one hell of a kind. Seriously. You might like me or not, but you'll surely not find anyone as annoying/amazing as me. I consider myself a "mystic scientist" because, what is the supernatural world but unknown knowledge? I'm an engineer, a painter, a thinker, a bookworm, a weirdo, a kinkster, a traveler, a constant horny sensualist."
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11:32 asciilifeform one day the perl script that generates these, lol, will leak out..
11:32 mircea_popescu 27yo male. that you will not find anymore as X as. because this is now a thing, 20somethings are distinguishable in that absolute sense.
11:32 BingoBoingo Meanwhile in better America the trucks carting around propaganda speakers are increasing their activity
11:32 asciilifeform i expect it'll look like those nigerian dear|sir|madam|colleague, please consider out snakeoil|cockring|cockcage ...' items mircea_popescu collected
11:33 mircea_popescu it's not like, generation is like dropping balls, with there being a coupla boxes at the age of 0, and maybe a dozen boxes by age 6, and at MOST fifty or so boxes by age 25. and so by the law of large fucking numbers, every single fucking 25yo out there is in a class with at best MILLIONS of other, perfectly equal and entirely interchangeable balls.
11:34 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i also suspect that distinguishable folx , where they exist, are occupied with sumthing other than prattling re how supposedly distinguishable they are..
11:34 mircea_popescu more than half of them are in a box with a cardinal in nine or ten digits!
11:34 BingoBoingo http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851224 << So he's saying he can't get his nut off anymore
11:34 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 15:31 mircea_popescu: meanwhile at the lulzfarm, "What do you need to know about me? I'm one hell of a kind. Seriously. You might like me or not, but you'll surely not find anyone as annoying/amazing as me. I consider myself a "mystic scientist" because, what is the supernatural world but unknown knowledge? I'm an engineer, a painter, a thinker, a bookworm, a weirdo, a kinkster, a traveler, a constant horny sensualist."
11:34 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo is this some "threaded cock" joke ?
11:34 asciilifeform ( evidently not errybody got the 'spartan speaks with his sword' memo )
11:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform he's a penis captive in a mouth body!
11:35 mircea_popescu buddy*
11:35 asciilifeform lol!
11:35 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Trope of the last decade, the weirdos go deeper and deeper into weirdo porn and dysfunction their sex
11:36 BingoBoingo Nothing stimulates them to completion anymore. Hence the "sensualist" title the perl script offered
11:36 mircea_popescu this is true innit. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-25#1818559 sword cuts many many ways, most of which... not so useful.
11:36 a111 Logged on 2018-05-25 04:38 mircea_popescu: now back to fake homosexuality : human sexuality is a learned behaviour. proper homosexuality is an inability to learn, akin to dyslexia or lefthandedness. fake homosexuality is the exact contrary, a lot of "what if"ism and "provemewrong"ism and so on. a social, rather than biological phenomenon.
11:37 mircea_popescu "Oh! Before you go, there you are: Floccinaucinihilipilification: The act or habit of describing or regarding something as unimportant, of having no value or being worthless. Doms around the world, might wanna include that one in your dirty talk when trying to be a fancy degrader. Didn't want you to leave without learning something new ;) got extra points if you actually read the whole word." << dude's seriously off in his ow
11:37 mircea_popescu n world, where he's like smart and in control and shit. what fucking perl script, one needs wetware for this much self-referential lulz.
11:38 asciilifeform sounds like garden variety redditus
11:39 mircea_popescu nooo ?
11:39 asciilifeform y'know, the kind for whom 'deep b00k' is '9000 phun phakts by time magazine', 'ted talk', etc
11:39 mircea_popescu i have one word for you, alfie
11:39 mircea_popescu and that word is of course "floccinaucinihilipilification".
11:40 asciilifeform lol
11:40 BingoBoingo Sounds like what happens when you pack hot anthrax tight in a hair fillicle
11:40 asciilifeform gotta consult 'mystic scientist' !111
11:41 mircea_popescu sounds like what happens when you teach ustards the letters and no more. sooner or later they'll find an old translation of a greek thesaurus and start mixymatching it up.
11:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this flavour of thing is actually a 1980s meme, is what passed for lolcats in those days
11:42 mircea_popescu this is specifically eton coinage.
11:42 * asciilifeform saw any number of 'phun phakts' 'toilet reading' tomes in dusty shops, from the period, literally full of 'today's word, refers to act of fucking railroad carriages, is...'
11:42 mircea_popescu i expect he's aware, seeing how notwithstanding he and some chicks (married to other dudes) he lists are in "antactica", the extended network of "play partners" etc eventually points to edinburgh.
11:43 mircea_popescu which may be the only place in the world still possessed of kids who think http://trilema.com/2011/romanul-si-marea/ 'ing footnotes of eton obscura is liek gold.
11:43 asciilifeform cloink, goes the roman mosaic, creak goes the oxcart.
11:44 mircea_popescu sensualism!
11:44 mircea_popescu "as long as the fridge works, why do i need to understand adiabatic cycles! MYSTICAL SCIENTISM CLINTON FOR THE WIN!"
11:45 asciilifeform personally i find the plebez with 0 pretense to 'understand' anyffing, slightly less offensively stupid ( rather like dried shit is less offensive than fresh ) but possibly just me.
11:45 mircea_popescu i can't quite manage to find 20something dicklets offensive anymore.
11:46 asciilifeform mebbe i'm thick, but why even bother to read the male tards
11:46 mircea_popescu i spenta while trying, but the sad truth about impotence is that sooner or later one has to come to terms with the facts of the matter. i just... can't.
11:47 * asciilifeform sings old folksong, where '...and the first, first, constipated man, was cain, he wasn't... abel'
11:47 mircea_popescu hahaha
11:50 diana_coman http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-9-18#431515 -> what data do we want to log from this?
11:50 mimisbrunnr Logged on 2018-09-18 14:08 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851125 << incidentally, we very much want to do this. diana_coman mind setting up a large testing harness, send a soup of all packets lengths from 1 to 65536 bytes each hour back and forth for a week or two ?
11:51 mircea_popescu delta time and packet loss, i think.
11:51 asciilifeform diana_coman: at the very minimum, survival rate, and latency. ( could also try to measure reorderiness, but immediately obvious how )
11:51 asciilifeform mircea_popescu has it
11:51 mircea_popescu i do not think we want more moving parts than those two
11:51 asciilifeform *not immediately
11:52 mircea_popescu it'll passively show network congestion too i think, because of the hourlies.
11:52 mircea_popescu which may permit further 2nd pass data processing. but that -- open to reader.
11:52 diana_coman http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-9-18#431566 -> I'm thinking of 2 there ; asciilifeform's lib also provides I think a good interface - I don't see any reason why one couldn't just change /swap the underlying .c file with ada or asm at a later date without having to change otherwise anything of whatever one builds on top of the lib (i.e. relying on the lib's interface)
11:53 mimisbrunnr Logged on 2018-09-18 14:20 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851155 << speaking of which, what's our next step here ? 1. wanna do cpu timing/load comparisons on the two libs ? 2. say that given the nature of the task (many different folk are expected to implement clients on various platforms) thin c is better than straight asm because more widely spoken and also presumably more portable/less friable ? 3. somethi
11:53 asciilifeform troo congestion begins when you start to overload yer local box/lan
11:53 asciilifeform but yes
11:53 asciilifeform diana_coman: i'm not married to the c glue, and it'll eventually go. i am quite fond of my api tho, it completely rids user of having to think in unixisms , imho
11:53 mircea_popescu diana_coman i can see it.
11:54 diana_coman asciilifeform, precisely my point, right?
11:54 asciilifeform aha
11:54 mircea_popescu ave1 i very much hope you don't think your own work is a waste for this reason.
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11:54 asciilifeform btw if anybody can think of how to further simplify the api, asciilifeform is all ears
11:54 diana_coman it's certainly NOT a waste!
11:54 mircea_popescu right.
11:55 asciilifeform asciilifeform incidentally much appreciates ave1's work, when i remove the c glue i'ma just about certainly crib from his asm glue
11:55 asciilifeform ( supposing he doesn't get to it 1st )
11:55 diana_coman and I actually think it is a step in the right direction since it gets rid of C
11:56 asciilifeform diana_coman: libc, specifically ( i like musl, but it doesn't belong on the fyootoor all-adatronic box )
11:56 asciilifeform ultimately we'll have asmolade that simply drives the nic directly.
11:56 phf asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=udp and http://btcbase.org/patches/udp_genesis
11:56 lobbesbot phf: Sent 12 hours and 56 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> plox to snarf vpatch in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2557 , ty
11:56 asciilifeform ty phf !
11:57 diana_coman heh, asciilifeform has it: the way I see it, ave1's work will come in very handy at a later date when we can get rid of more of the C mess
11:57 mod6 pretty cool
11:57 mircea_popescu yep.
11:57 asciilifeform the only part that'd change , for this, is what's in unix_udp.c ( 139 ln. )
12:00 asciilifeform diana_coman, mircea_popescu : i thought about including timeout in 'procedure Receive...' but sat and thought and could not think of why , so omitted.
12:00 asciilifeform ( unix gives this option, but it is of questionable imho use if you have working threading )
12:01 mircea_popescu ada threading still seems as promising as it did weeks ago. few things survive this long lol
12:01 asciilifeform fwiw in my own experiments, it worx as expected.
12:01 asciilifeform but i haven't tried erry possible os, conceivably it breaks on microshit or somesuch.
12:01 diana_coman fwiw, I'm also quite grateful that ave1 published it now - it pointed me to ada inline assembler (I hadn't really looked at it before!) and it gives me some time to hopefully get a bit more used to it *before* I'll need it anyway
12:01 mircea_popescu anyway, i shall bbl!
12:02 asciilifeform ( ada uses 'green' threading, rather than os's, but iirc the os threads are involved ultimately )
12:03 asciilifeform diana_coman: there'll be no getting away from inline asm once we start planting things on naked iron.
12:03 diana_coman asciilifeform, the timeout was the only one I hesitated on too (and the only one I'm using in the original test for that matter) but precisely like you, when I thought of it, I came up with "well, threading should be enough anyway " and uhm, no reason why it's *needed* there
12:04 asciilifeform ( gnat's asm support is not particularly different from ye olde gcc's, only syntax slightly variant -- unsurprising, considering that same backend is used )
12:05 asciilifeform diana_coman: somewhere i also have glue for unix signals support, so proggy can do the Right Thing when you ctrl-c, or kill, etc. but this i'll dust off later (or if somebody has a dire need)
12:06 diana_coman anyways, rounding up, it seems my next step here is to 1. set up the testing harness http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-9-18#431515 2. put asciilifeform's lib to use in smg.comms
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12:06 mimisbrunnr Logged on 2018-09-18 14:08 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851125 << incidentally, we very much want to do this. diana_coman mind setting up a large testing harness, send a soup of all packets lengths from 1 to 65536 bytes each hour back and forth for a week or two ?
12:06 asciilifeform as for tcp, unixsockets, etc. imho if we ever need these, they oughta live in own separate lib, given as they force somewhat different and gnarlier semantics, they do not belong in 1 gigantic 'kitchen sink' imho
↖
12:06 diana_coman quite
12:08 deedbot http://qntra.net/2018/09/israeli-aggression-in-syria-downs-russian-plane-with-15-aboard/ << Qntra - Israeli Aggression In Syria Downs Russian Plane With 15 Aboard
↖
12:08 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: s/plan/plane
12:09 BingoBoingo ty fxd
12:16 asciilifeform diana_coman, mircea_popescu : nobody noticed, but it is troo -- i forgot to close the socket in the demo ( this has 0 effect, os closes ). but in next rev will correct this.
12:16 asciilifeform ( i think there's also at least 1 typo in the comments )
12:17 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/patches/udp_genesis#L298 also may produce string with spurious trailing whitespace, prolly oughta fix
12:20 asciilifeform there's also a missing restrict pragma in the lib, pragma Restrictions(No_Implicit_Conditionals) , took it out during dev (when experimented with to-string sans-callout ) and forgot to reinsert
12:20 asciilifeform that rounds out the list of errata currently known, i think
12:23 asciilifeform diana_coman: last (for nao) observation -- 1) it is possible to make the thing 'fancier' in 2 ways -- can make Socket a 'controlled type' ( as i did in mmap, see http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-14#1850368 ) , then it can close itself when going out of scope. i did not do this, as it adds a bit of overhead 2) it is possible to make the lib a 'generic' ( again see horsecocks re how ) , and make udptrons of different packet length runti
12:23 a111 Logged on 2018-09-14 13:35 a111: Logged on 2017-06-06 19:40 asciilifeform: mod6, phf , et al : http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/ada/horsecocks.tar.gz << i dun recall posting this before, so here it will live, for nao : unofficial release of mmaptron
12:23 asciilifeform me-instantiable. you may want this for your tester.
12:23 asciilifeform the current item offers no way of adjusting packet size at runtime.
~ 24 minutes ~
12:48 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2557 << revised with moar detail for n00bz.
12:52 lobbes TMSR~: Updated auctionbot eta 'steps to fruition' to be a little more reflective of my current state >> http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2018/07/auctionbot-eta-and-status-report/
12:52 lobbes Detailed update on step 3) referenced within: I have finished designing/building out/testing the underlying table and field structure (I ended up migrating the underlying db to postgres in lieu of sqlite, and so far am glad I did). Right now I am in the thick of the re-tooling of my old coad. Still looks to be on-track for Oct 31st delivery, but I will keep folx updated
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~ 1 hours 8 minutes ~
14:00 ave1 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851208, asciilifeform was right. I used the list of system calls and read the man pages and some linux kernel code. (I've worked with the whole BSD sockets stuff for way too long but not so much directly with it in the past 10 years or so, and it has grown wraths...). Plus figuring out how to do system calls with more than 3 parameters took some work (was not hard but in relation with inline assembly made it difficult).
14:00 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 14:48 mircea_popescu: incidentally ave1 what was your process there ? did you compile a higher language original (what, c ?) and then desasm the resulting object code ? followed by a handpass through the result, neating & trimming things out ? or did you start with a blank page and a legal pad ?
14:03 ave1 I was working towards having different modules on top of a common base to support tcp / unix sockets etc. but I think your idea is way better, asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851315
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14:03 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 16:06 asciilifeform: as for tcp, unixsockets, etc. imho if we ever need these, they oughta live in own separate lib, given as they force somewhat different and gnarlier semantics, they do not belong in 1 gigantic 'kitchen sink' imho
14:04 ave1 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851285, no I do not. I was thinking I could add the asm stuff to asciilifeforms UDP code in a vpatch, if this would be at all desirable.
14:04 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 15:54 mircea_popescu: ave1 i very much hope you don't think your own work is a waste for this reason.
14:05 asciilifeform ave1: definitely desirable, imho
14:05 asciilifeform and there's a quite convenient place to put.
14:06 ave1 Yes, around the point were the outcalls to C are?
14:06 asciilifeform exactly there
14:07 ave1 My current method to support different platforms (C, asm X86, asm arm) is to have implementations of the same module in different source directories and then selecting the directory to use in the project file.
14:07 asciilifeform ave1: this is the method i recommend , yes
14:07 ave1 AdaCore has python scripts that copy stuff for this.
14:08 asciilifeform ( see the 'ifdefs thread' )
14:08 asciilifeform ave1: i'd rather not marry python if at all possible to avoid
14:08 ave1 Yes, I remember
14:08 asciilifeform imho the preferred method of branching is -- vtronic
14:08 asciilifeform 'this-here is what you press to get dec alpha', 'this-here - mips' , etc
14:08 ave1 Yes, depending on python is definitely not the way to go
14:09 asciilifeform afaik none of this requires any additional fancy tooling
14:09 ave1 I don't know about the different v-trees for this, I'll have to think about it
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14:09 asciilifeform for a correctly-written proggy, v-branching is clean, you can make patch that only affects os-specific coad
14:12 asciilifeform ave1: i am also not opposed to using gprbuild's selector thing
14:13 asciilifeform but would rather avoid an ocean of os-specific items that i'm expected to sign despite never having tested and possibly not even owning the iron with which to test ( again see the #ifdef megathread )
14:13 ave1 well if the ocean is in a different file it will also no end up in the tree (only in those patches containing the file)
14:14 asciilifeform if using the trees separation method, yes
14:14 asciilifeform was speaking of the gprbuild selector variant.
↖
14:17 ave1 how would this interact with manifests? it seems to me to need regrinds when the base code has changed
14:18 asciilifeform they will, yes. but i dun expect this one to change much at all.
14:19 asciilifeform this is the inevitable cost of v, you gotta weigh 'i can fix this typo, but 5 people will need to either regrind or abandon my tree'
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14:22 asciilifeform this is the other thing, 'changes are expensive' promote imho a sane view of software, where you actually try to perma-stabilize yer proggy, rather than to keep up the classic 'open sores' eternal cauldron of bubbling liquishit
↖ ↖ ↖
14:23 asciilifeform if yer thing is 'young' and in flux, it's likely to be a single-author straight-line tree at any rate
14:23 asciilifeform ( can have side-branches, but they'll be short, you'll either grind'em into the main, or not )
~ 25 minutes ~
14:49 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/patches/udp_genesis#L363 << moar errata, thing should eggog if bytes_sent != payloadlen
14:49 asciilifeform i'ma bake another patch later this wk, unless somebody else does first.
~ 4 hours 33 minutes ~
19:23 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851313 << yes.
19:23 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 16:06 diana_coman: anyways, rounding up, it seems my next step here is to 1. set up the testing harness http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2018-9-18#431515 2. put asciilifeform's lib to use in smg.comms
19:23 mimisbrunnr Logged on 2018-09-18 14:08 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851125 << incidentally, we very much want to do this. diana_coman mind setting up a large testing harness, send a soup of all packets lengths from 1 to 65536 bytes each hour back and forth for a week or two ?
19:26 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851317 << kinda lulzy, jews doing the best they can to alienate absolutely everybody.
19:26 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 16:08 deedbot: http://qntra.net/2018/09/israeli-aggression-in-syria-downs-russian-plane-with-15-aboard/ << Qntra - Israeli Aggression In Syria Downs Russian Plane With 15 Aboard
19:28 mircea_popescu when they bake again, it's gonna be "because the world is mean and CERTAINLY not because http://trilema.com/2013/the-dead-jew-and-the-raped-girl/ " again also, no doubt ?
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19:35 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851331 << this sounds like it was a most educational adventure.
19:35 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 16:52 lobbes: Detailed update on step 3) referenced within: I have finished designing/building out/testing the underlying table and field structure (I ended up migrating the underlying db to postgres in lieu of sqlite, and so far am glad I did). Right now I am in the thick of the re-tooling of my old coad. Still looks to be on-track for Oct 31st delivery, but I will keep folx updated
19:38 mircea_popescu ave1 it's warts you know, not warths nor wraths (though this one's quite funny).
19:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: lol, i assumed was typo from 'wraiths'
19:40 mircea_popescu sing ye beedog the anger of ave the viking upon encountering bsd sockets again.
19:40 asciilifeform lollamatic
19:41 mircea_popescu "they are now fulla ARRRRGGGGGHHHH!!!!11"
19:41 asciilifeform btw re http://ossasepia.com/2018/09/14/smgcomms-implementation-chapter-1/comment-page-1/#comment-4212 , observe that my proggy flips nuffin (aside from the ip/port that linux demands in bigend, and even then strictly when on littleendianistic box)
19:42 asciilifeform diana_coman ^
19:43 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851334 << i also can't think of a thing that would legitimately need/want to use both tcp and udp as a toplevel thing.
19:43 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 18:03 ave1: I was working towards having different modules on top of a common base to support tcp / unix sockets etc. but I think your idea is way better, asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851315
19:43 mircea_popescu seems rather like a sort of html/irc browserclient.
19:43 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: funnily enuff, the proggy for which i originally wrote the thing , was one
19:43 asciilifeform 'g' , the tunnel-tcp-through-ciphered-udp thing
19:43 mircea_popescu what, gossipd ?
19:43 mircea_popescu imo that's a sort of herodotus bestiary item, web-footed whale.
19:44 asciilifeform not adult gossipd, was simply proggy that eats a symmetric key and gives tunnel for, e.g., www, ftp, telnet, etc
19:44 mircea_popescu myeah.
19:44 asciilifeform sorta ugly, and not released, kept 'fleet in being' in case we gotta jump off fleanode ahead of schedule ( there isn't imho esp. much use for it outside of this )
19:45 asciilifeform i cut off the tcpism, cleaned up, turned into 'udp' lib
19:45 asciilifeform tcp imho is fundamentally sad, not the least reason for which is that 'anybody' can break yer pipe
19:46 asciilifeform ( by inserting a nAck, or simply timing it out, etc )
19:46 asciilifeform it also leaks sequence and other tidbits 3rdparty has 0biznis knowing
19:47 asciilifeform imho tcp , if preserved anywhere, oughta live as a lowered-into-pederasty item-only-carried-over-better-protocols or strictly-on-lan, like telnet.
19:47 asciilifeform ( e.g. connecting trad irc client to gossiptron )
19:49 mircea_popescu fuck that ; trad irc client will connect in the manner lobbes is building atop trinque 's design. fucking sql queue, what.
19:49 asciilifeform you'd have to doctor it.
19:49 mircea_popescu and we almost like never ever do that.
19:49 asciilifeform ( at which point writing new thing begins to look like a win )
19:50 mircea_popescu people don't want to rewrite "traditional X" because "traditional" is always a way of saying "gui". and nobody ever wants to redo that.
19:50 asciilifeform in asciilifeform's head, frontends are filed as 'luxury' at any rate
19:50 mircea_popescu nobody sane, i mean.
19:50 asciilifeform i.e. 'harem matter'
19:50 asciilifeform who wants fancy frontends, can write own.
19:50 mircea_popescu this being the emacs view on gui.
19:50 asciilifeform right
19:50 mircea_popescu or *ui in general.
19:51 asciilifeform i'm using an ancient gtk1 thing for irc on this box, and loathe to pry open its rusted hood
19:51 asciilifeform but eventually, even this.
19:51 mircea_popescu especially seeing how the hood is merely drawn on, and the actual box is inside one wheel.
19:51 asciilifeform lolyes
19:52 asciilifeform typically i'm reluctant to open the hood on things that aint broken, tho
19:52 asciilifeform and this is one of the few i know of
19:53 asciilifeform ftr i never grasped why irc is a tcp item to begin with. it aint as if the messages outweigh the available bucket.
19:54 asciilifeform ftp, i can see, telnet, but -- why this.
19:55 mircea_popescu originally irc of today was implemented by bbs and the irc was principally a sort of edonkey, basically conversations around warez metadata.
19:55 asciilifeform it's 100% of how asciilifeform used it before encountering mircea_popescu , yes
19:55 mircea_popescu dcc carried more ~meaningful~ discolored bits than anything else, though the later torrents far outweight it
19:55 * asciilifeform still has fat binder of these very same
19:56 mircea_popescu right, so. in a sense, what passes for irc here is actually an invention of here.
19:56 asciilifeform the protocol itself is a '80s thing tho, and (at least according to folk legend..) at one time was used ~likethis
19:57 asciilifeform the warez dcc was bolt-on
19:57 mircea_popescu yes, there is a brief nail of time where in finland irc was dating rather than bitwashery.
19:57 mircea_popescu but this is the wrong language for that discussion.
19:57 asciilifeform the finns are an interesting hero-to-zero case imho
19:57 asciilifeform recall penet ?
19:58 mircea_popescu diageo took over their alcohol.
19:58 asciilifeform and 'ftpsearch' etc
19:58 asciilifeform torvalds, supposedly, came from that dead culture.
19:59 asciilifeform they cranked out cracks for msdos warez, 'demos', all sorts of goodies
19:59 mircea_popescu yeah, that was the thing "northern democracies" pantsuit meme is trying to take to the hot topic cash register.
19:59 asciilifeform i have nfi how, but it all evaporated. and mircea_popescu's hypothesis as as good as any.
20:00 mircea_popescu at some point in the 80s, finland-sweden-norway-and-peripheralia were a kind of internet center.
20:00 asciilifeform for short time, they had a) functional people b) with time on their hands
20:00 asciilifeform sorta like early '90s su, for that matter
20:00 asciilifeform never lasts.
20:00 mircea_popescu nah, it was rather a sort of sane-moms-central.
20:01 asciilifeform certainly nao is ( currently under conversion to a sort of discount bagdad, as i understand )
20:01 asciilifeform ah i misread
20:01 asciilifeform sanemoms of ~that~ gen, yes
20:01 mircea_popescu yeah.
20:02 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851352 << what's the impediment though ?
20:02 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 18:09 ave1: I don't know about the different v-trees for this, I'll have to think about it
20:03 asciilifeform funnily enuff, as recently as '16 we briefly had a finn here, helped me ferret out the amd key thing, but went back into the allconsuming swamp, never heard from again
20:03 asciilifeform !#seen kmalkki
20:03 a111 2016-10-15 <kmalkki> apu1 also really needs DBREQn asserted to give access to USEHDT IR/DR pair
20:03 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851358 << imo this is a very stupid way to go about it ; first and foremost for the reason given (why am i signing ifdefs i do not run) but there's also others.
20:03 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 18:14 asciilifeform: was speaking of the gprbuild selector variant.
20:03 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: right, i dunlikeit
20:03 asciilifeform it's exactly 'ifdefism'
20:04 asciilifeform currently i only use it to toggle debugflag vs adult build, and that's prolly the beginning and end of the valid use case imho
20:05 mircea_popescu i dun see a problem with that bit, either.
20:05 asciilifeform gprbuild is spiffy, incidentally. i dun miss gnumake at all.
20:05 asciilifeform automagically finds the c turd, for instance.
20:06 asciilifeform (without explicitly given name). and the rest.
20:06 mircea_popescu i think there's three previous instances on the whole net of "i dun miss gnumake"
20:06 asciilifeform iirc most recently diana_coman's
20:06 mircea_popescu it's kinda mindboggling to me, how readily that seeming tooth-rooted-in-yggdrasil got removed.
20:06 mircea_popescu also -- informative.
20:07 asciilifeform prior to all of this i had gargantuan makefiles, that called out to various shellisms that turned out to flake on e.g. bsd
20:07 mircea_popescu EVERYONE
20:07 asciilifeform ( trb still has )
20:07 mircea_popescu the orcs still do, everywhere.
20:08 asciilifeform btw one of the items i have in the deep freezers, is a trb with block db ripped out, replaced with (half-finished, sadly) ada mmap thing
20:08 mircea_popescu well, where they still c, which is rapidly dwindling (no doubt for this reason -- and batshit insane nonsense like "containers" and "rubies" and whatnot verymuch have their roots in we-were-born-in-gnusty-makefiles-taste-ok"
20:09 asciilifeform ah ~these~ , they dun even use gnumake, they use various heathen horrors, 'modern', 'cmake' etc
20:09 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851361 << what ?!
20:09 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 18:19 asciilifeform: this is the inevitable cost of v, you gotta weigh 'i can fix this typo, but 5 people will need to either regrind or abandon my tree'
20:09 mircea_popescu the 5 don't have to regrind anymore than you do, can just import the patch.
20:10 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: subj was specifically the cases where regrind.
20:10 mircea_popescu or you mean "regrind the patch" ? usually regrind means you know, the whole tree.
20:10 asciilifeform nah, patch, in $thread
20:10 asciilifeform ave1 was asking re scenario where 'say i make pdp11.c for yer lib, and you changed the ada trunk, naowat'
20:10 mircea_popescu well so of course if upstream fixes something, downstream will have to either import or lose out. this can't be different nor is in any known system.
20:11 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the heathens make a pretense that 'dun have to, automerge' etc
20:11 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nao you add my changes to your line
20:11 asciilifeform right
20:11 asciilifeform imho this is the Right Thing.
20:11 mircea_popescu which is how you even pay back the upstream
20:11 mircea_popescu this way i fucking hear if my typo is typo'd.
20:11 asciilifeform entirely. this is one of the 9000 ways in which vtronics wins.
20:11 mircea_popescu "if my typo fix contains a typo" i mean
20:13 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851362 << yes! this BingoBoingoian "movement for the sake of movement" thing they do... it is not for white people.
20:13 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 18:22 asciilifeform: this is the other thing, 'changes are expensive' promote imho a sane view of software, where you actually try to perma-stabilize yer proggy, rather than to keep up the classic 'open sores' eternal cauldron of bubbling liquishit
20:13 asciilifeform insect movement.
20:14 mircea_popescu http://bingology.net/2016/01/24/the-theoretical-foundation-of-social-engineering-practice/#selection-179.140-179.253 << megapiece btw.
20:14 asciilifeform btw how do i say копошиться in ro
20:14 asciilifeform y'know, specific term for how insects, rodents, scuttle about in-place
20:14 mircea_popescu pululatie!
20:15 asciilifeform ha , has a pigeon flavour about it
20:15 asciilifeform even exists, sorta , in eng, 'pullulation'
20:15 mircea_popescu literally sounds like cognate of pula, dick. but is ancient latin. can also have viermuiala (wormization)
20:15 asciilifeform that 2nd one sounds on-target
20:16 asciilifeform incidentally, speaking of finns, there was a http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-20#570183 .
20:16 a111 Logged on 2014-03-20 14:20 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: 'cum se suge pula' << can't help but associate this in my head with the finnish proverb, 'Pillu se on pulullakin'
20:16 mircea_popescu lol.
20:16 mircea_popescu o yeah, finns and romanians make great drunk parties.
20:17 asciilifeform in '90s asciilifeform idly dreamed of learning fn and going there. but meanwhile they sank.
20:18 mircea_popescu the girls are still pretty.
20:18 asciilifeform for another gen or 2, i'd imagine yes
20:18 asciilifeform (then prolly will all have mustache)
20:19 mircea_popescu lol you saw the pics with that obscure middle earth harem, all chicks with mustachios ?
20:19 asciilifeform nein
20:19 asciilifeform where was this
20:19 mircea_popescu http://www.xubux.com/articles/nasseredin-shah-and-his-84-wives.html
20:19 mircea_popescu those, they are female.
20:20 asciilifeform ha
20:20 asciilifeform even notes, 'The harem inmates did not suffer of thinness.'
20:20 asciilifeform http://www.xubux.com/upload/000/u1/013/4781adf0.jpg << i def saw this, in a b00k, must be
20:20 asciilifeform famous shot
20:21 asciilifeform 'face to push locomotive' or how did the ro folx put this.
20:21 mod6 lol, i remember these, that one lady looks like Jay Leno.
20:21 mircea_popescu lol
20:21 mod6 (lady with hookah)
20:21 mircea_popescu "complete women"
20:22 asciilifeform i have nfi how this passed 'qa' for 'harem'. but i suppose 'in the great birdlessness, my arse is a nightingale'
20:22 mircea_popescu ie, unibrows, moustaches, bellybutton lint, you know, the COMPLETE
20:22 mircea_popescu nah, there is actual philosophical underlying.
20:22 asciilifeform or possib this was one of those degenerate harems that morphed into a sort of harvard, i.e. institution that popped its tether to whatever original ground it stood on
20:23 asciilifeform like osman harem
20:24 asciilifeform it is difficult imho to picture a d00d with working cock having been involved in the auditions for this harem.
20:25 asciilifeform ( maybe they were picked for toe-suckling amplitude..? )
20:27 * asciilifeform bbl,food
~ 22 minutes ~
20:50 mircea_popescu osmanli harems were populated by the valide sultan, ie, mother of guy.
21:00 Mocky where's a niqab when you need one
21:08 Mocky got my flight booked. will be on layover at heathrow for 15hrs on oct 8th
↖
21:10 deedbot http://thewhet.net/2018/09/the-appropriately-proportioned-ballad-of-chimichurri/ << The Whet - The (appropriately-proportioned) Ballad of Chimichurri
~ 52 minutes ~
22:02 mircea_popescu Mocky why the hell would anyone do that to themselves.
22:02 mircea_popescu hanbot hahaha excellent shots!
22:03 Mocky it was that or pay fiddy buks more for 12 hrs layover in turkey. turkey wasn't gonna let me out of the airport tho
22:07 BingoBoingo hanbot: Nice bird
22:07 Mocky never been to London before, but from what i hear, can practice my arabic with half the population
22:09 BingoBoingo <Mocky> got my flight booked. will be on layover at heathrow for 15hrs on oct 8th << I don't feel so bad about the 45 minutes I ended up with in Panama now
22:10 Mocky on the way back I'll have 3 hrs in madrid and 3 in miami
22:11 Mocky tried to stretch it out in madrid long enough to look around but couldn't make it work
~ 40 minutes ~
22:52 asciilifeform Mocky: way back ? i thought yours was a 1way
22:53 Mocky 60 days to make something happen >> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-01#1846611
22:53 a111 Logged on 2018-09-01 17:06 mircea_popescu: i figure... you get what 2 ? 3 ? months there until the first save point, see if it can be done or can't be done ?
22:53 asciilifeform aaa
22:54 Mocky i'm a noob to international travel, but the whole exit visa thing seems super sketchy to me
22:55 asciilifeform this gotta be on the arabian end, afaik usa not (yet) has sucha thing
22:56 asciilifeform it's a pretty good proxy for 'is this place northkr yet'
22:56 asciilifeform sorta the last notch on the dial
22:57 Mocky yes, doesn't apply to visa on arrival which i'll be using. but if i want to stay past 60 days need some sort of business sponsor or hotel sponsor. and if use sponsor, their failure to file paperwork will prevent you from leaving
22:57 Mocky or if bank says you owe a dime, can't leave. no time limit
22:58 asciilifeform interesting. do they also have a gulag where you work off said dime ?
22:58 asciilifeform iirc dubai has this system, it is used to keep the indian janitors from jumping ship
22:58 asciilifeform ( they have articles of indenture and such )
22:59 Mocky seems like whole service industry is such a gulag for 1) indians 2) pakis 3) filipinos
23:00 Mocky they make about >75% of population
23:00 asciilifeform aa, nobody gets out till they mop the requisite # of floors to pay back their master for shipping'em in , a la dubai, then
23:04 asciilifeform they have similar thing for mexicans in usa, but 100% unofficial, orcish, under the table
23:05 asciilifeform iirc they dun bother with workhouses for defaulters, tho, straight to cement boots
23:11 Mocky construction workers for their 2022 world cup stadii firmly in gulag, unpaid for year+, dying at a rate of 1 every 2 days, according to The Guardian ~2014
↖
23:22 Mocky reportedly uae & qatar have lowest percent of females on planet earth ~25% of pop
23:32 Mocky if you're a woman who wants an arab man, qatar is the shit. step up on your pedestal and take your pick
23:37 asciilifeform Mocky: wouldnt it be mostly pinoy & indian d00dz tho
23:37 asciilifeform in the excess mass
23:39 Mocky huge mass yes, but all the good picks still less likely to be taken, and more willing to dote over whatever can be found
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