Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-01-26 | 2017-01-28 → ↓
01:07 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A035B8E99A0B459D9BA18C193DF9230FAB2AF0C7B6434DAEC4FBF38934D19B0F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1714...9743 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '77.253.235.75 (ssh-rsa key from 77.253.235.75 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (77-253-235-75.static.ip.netia.com.pl. PL MA)
01:07 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/A035B8E99A0B459D9BA18C193DF9230FAB2AF0C7B6434DAEC4FBF38934D19B0F << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1786...7289 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '77.253.235.75 (ssh-rsa key from 77.253.235.75 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (77-253-235-75.static.ip.netia.com.pl. PL MA)
~ 3 hours 49 minutes ~
04:57 davout http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-September/000168.html <<< this still correct?
04:57 davout lol, disregard
04:59 davout well actually, the three revisions seem to reference the same vdiff.sh, which apparently works, but gives me some error messages
~ 28 minutes ~
05:28 davout so with the eventual goal of cleanly amputating the wallet off of TRB I'm kind of wondering what the best approach is here,
05:28 davout either remove the wallet and everything that depends on it in one go (pretty much everything that uses keys stored by the client)
05:29 davout or remove the dependencies one by one until removing the wallet is merely a "rm wallet.cpp" away
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05:29 davout i've started by simply removing the signmessage and verifymessage functionality
05:30 davout mostly as an exercise in vtronics
05:31 davout getting a feel for the whole patch authoring process without touching anything very sensitive
05:33 davout my first attempt at something that'd somehow resemble a vpatch (when the light is just right!) -> http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/JTh3K/?raw=true
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05:40 davout i suspect something's broken in my vdifftronics
~ 1 hours 18 minutes ~
06:58 mircea_popescu davout even if the whole bundle is released in one go, it is probably best practice to do the snips one at a time in that many patches.
07:00 davout probably easier to merge multiple patches into one than unmerge a hairball
07:02 mircea_popescu exactly.
07:03 mircea_popescu let the job of merging be done later, that's the idea. eventually as the chains get long and review has progressed significantly, people can rebase multiple patches into one.
07:03 mircea_popescu this activity would be the v-equivalent of "stable release"
07:15 mircea_popescu and in other news, some dude apparently goes and pours aluminum into fire anthills, sells the resulting casts.
07:24 davout the result looks pretty cool https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IGJ2jMZ-gaI
07:31 mircea_popescu kinda repetitive but yeah.
07:32 davout probably catches lots of dust too
07:33 mircea_popescu lol what a thoughtful household head you are.
07:36 davout kinda bijective with "let's put a wallet in bitcoind", catches dust too
07:38 mircea_popescu tru
07:38 davout meanwhile, in france, police stations getting attacked http://www.leparisien.fr/saint-germain-en-laye-78100/saint-germain-en-laye-une-bande-cagoulee-attaque-le-poste-de-la-police-municipale-27-01-2017-6626244.php
07:40 mircea_popescu yeah, well, at some point someone thought "hey, i know, we'll wear shit on our heads and go break people's doors". the obvious "then people will wear shit on their heads break your door" however got handwaved, because there's nothing specialer than a special snowflake.
07:41 mircea_popescu what the fuck is a police station for, other than l'attaque d'une bande cagoulee ?
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~ 18 minutes ~
07:59 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/frank-ants-and-mrs-stein/ << Trilema - Frank, ants and Mrs Stein.
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~ 51 minutes ~
08:51 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608079 >> http://btcbase.org/log/2014-02-17#511591 << https://archive.is/PtzJd
08:51 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 12:59 deedbot: http://trilema.com/2017/frank-ants-and-mrs-stein/ << Trilema - Frank, ants and Mrs Stein.
08:51 a111 Logged on 2014-02-17 19:02 asciilifeform: 'some demented people in gulag during the years of the cult, for their amusement, would select women from the contigent of 'enemies of the people' and for 'some sin' sit them down upon anthills.' bottom: 'young women who refused to become lovers of their executioners in gulag would be sat upon anthills, tied to trees, 'for the mosquitoes and ants.' sometimes a pipe would be inserted, made from a reed or a birc
08:52 asciilifeform and betcha chinese classics are rich in anthill literature.
09:00 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/ED71EDF77E2516FF0FB0D23F807DD39572A584CCF8A083A376319B183334B400 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1764...1943 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '193.1.97.54 (ssh-rsa key from 193.1.97.54 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (pyrrha.csisdmz.ul.ie. IE M LK)
09:00 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/ED71EDF77E2516FF0FB0D23F807DD39572A584CCF8A083A376319B183334B400 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1422...9963 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '193.1.97.54 (ssh-rsa key from 193.1.97.54 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (pyrrha.csisdmz.ul.ie. IE M LK)
09:02 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608058 << hard part is not removing, but building new one as standalone proggy
09:02 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 10:29 davout: or remove the dependencies one by one until removing the wallet is merely a "rm wallet.cpp" away
09:03 asciilifeform we had detailed thread re subj not so long ago
09:04 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608062 << that looks like an ordinary unix diff
09:04 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 10:33 davout: my first attempt at something that'd somehow resemble a vpatch (when the light is just right!) -> http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/JTh3K/?raw=true
09:06 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608078 << i take it that fr police are not equipped with heavy machinegun like in usa ?
09:06 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 12:41 mircea_popescu: what the fuck is a police station for, other than l'attaque d'une bande cagoulee ?
09:06 asciilifeform or just snoring on the job?
09:06 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i see you appreciate teh frank
09:06 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: quite so
09:07 mircea_popescu when i die i'll be shown the list of everyone's favourite trilemas and spend the rest of the afterlife in shock.
~ 38 minutes ~
09:46 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/powder-blue/ << Trilema - Powder Blue
~ 26 minutes ~
10:12 mircea_popescu and in shocking today, trump has ~madonna~ apologizing and complaining about "being taken out of context". fucking madonna.
10:12 mircea_popescu this counts above fucking the woman, in my book.
10:16 mircea_popescu so BingoBoingo here's a stray thought :
10:17 mircea_popescu i read through the english speaking press wrt trump's first week. qntra is by far the better source.
10:28 mircea_popescu the shedding of 500k federal jobs in dc is underway, by the way. people are making financial arrangements, such as getting out of mortgages.
~ 15 minutes ~
10:44 mod6 <+davout> http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-September/000168.html <<< this still correct? << yup.
10:45 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: similar thing happened under clinton, 'brac'
10:46 asciilifeform result was, typically, mass migration into 'contract' sector.
10:46 asciilifeform (rather than , as one could naively suppose ) starvation, or 'honest work'
10:49 mircea_popescu economy was pretty strong under clinton by comparison.
10:49 asciilifeform aha, left what to blow idiot 'dotcom' bubble with.
10:50 asciilifeform and what to iraq with.
10:50 mircea_popescu in other lulz, "The most notable public opposition came from Senate Armed Service Committee Chairman John McCain, who promised to block any such move. Senator McCain’s objections were primarily procedural and not substantive (i.e., he was upset he learned about the recommendation almost second-hand at the hearing, instead of by official channels)."
10:51 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this re the nsa/cybercom split..?
10:51 mircea_popescu ya
10:51 asciilifeform they are , as i understand it, going for the classical kgb/gru split.
10:52 asciilifeform in hope of getting at least 1 functional piece.
10:52 mircea_popescu more or less.
10:52 mircea_popescu except of course they already got like 4 kgbs
10:52 asciilifeform 11.
10:52 mircea_popescu none of which work in any practical sense.
10:53 asciilifeform 16! apparently, by latest count.
10:53 asciilifeform i shit thee not.
10:53 mod6 <+asciilifeform> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608062 << that looks like an ordinary unix diff << yup. and if you got an error when running vdiff, some of us have run into this on various linux boxes. iirc the solution was to install a newer version of gnu-awk.
10:53 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 10:33 davout: my first attempt at something that'd somehow resemble a vpatch (when the light is just right!) -> http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/JTh3K/?raw=true
10:53 mircea_popescu however many. the woman's barren owing to advanced age and abundant curetages in youth, there's nothing coming out her rotten eggs regardless.
10:53 asciilifeform and this counts only ~official~ agencies (rather than, e.g., 'palantir')
10:55 * asciilifeform sings, 'незримого фронта солдаты...'
~ 1 hours 26 minutes ~
12:21 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> i read through the english speaking press wrt trump's first week. qntra is by far the better source. << ty
12:24 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: similar thing happened under clinton, 'brac' << BRAC took "Jobs in congressional districts" pissed off congress.
12:27 asciilifeform http://www.vlf.it/smith1/opticalink.html << rare instance of useful, sane work published on www.
12:31 asciilifeform also apparently you can (sorta) get these off the shelf, e.g., https://www.controlanything.com/Relay/Device/USBFOI
12:45 asciilifeform in quite other lulz, http://archive.is/v8l8N >> 'The @AltNatParkSer account was quickly followed by dozens more. There are now at least 50 "unofficial" or "alternative" accounts purporting to represent the views of government staffers or agencies.
12:45 asciilifeform Many of the accounts use the official logos of the departments they claim to represent, like the Environmental Protection Agency, NASA, or various regional park services.'
12:45 asciilifeform bureaucrat 'resistance'.
12:46 trinque so much firing
12:46 trinque he's going to have a blast
12:59 asciilifeform archive.today under ddos?
13:03 asciilifeform slooooow
13:04 asciilifeform but in latest lulz, http://archive.is/8G35m >> 'O’Grady was mistakenly identified this week as a Secret Service agent (also named Kerry O’Grady) who is under investigation for posting a statement on Facebook that appeared to indicate she preferred jail over being shot and killed for President Trump.'
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13:04 asciilifeform 'Reached by phone Wednesday, O’Grady, 33, said she has struggled to plug the stream of hateful messages that have inundated her Twitter feed and Facebook page since Tuesday morning, leaving her “defeated and dejected.”'
13:04 asciilifeform the sheer multilayer butthurt..
13:11 asciilifeform and in a lulzy continuation of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606755 >> in the fishwrap: http://archive.is/wnygX
13:11 a111 Logged on 2017-01-25 23:42 ben_vulpes: in other gabriel_laddel comments that have babe army swooning: https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/
~ 17 minutes ~
13:28 asciilifeform !~later tell mircea_popescu is there a translation of http://trilema.com/2011/oul-morganatic/ ?
13:28 jhvh1 asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
~ 17 minutes ~
13:46 davout mod6: ty, will try the gnu-awk thing
13:46 davout asciilifeform: to me trb just has to provide "return txouts spendable by arbitrary set of addresses", "add this transaction to mempool"
13:47 davout rest can go in external proggy
13:47 asciilifeform davout: have you written this external proggy ?
13:47 asciilifeform or is the plan to create (why???) a quite-useless castrato-trb.
13:47 davout not yet
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13:47 asciilifeform 'i'ma snip out this cirrhotic liver and some time later i'll maybe find a new one' ?
13:47 davout and just like vtrons, everyone should be able to write its own easily
13:48 asciilifeform davout: we don't even have a suitable bignumatron yet
13:48 ben_vulpes davout: trb cannot exist in a state where "user must supply code for x"
13:48 asciilifeform (i would certainly not use a walletron based on openssl that DOES NOT PRE-DATE VALUABLEBTC forfuckssake)
13:48 asciilifeform i'm with ben_vulpes . it's a motherfucking REFERENCE CLIENT
13:49 davout asciilifeform: can use same openssl as trb
13:49 asciilifeform which means 100% of necessary function to set up bitcoin on alpha centauri. no exceptions.
13:49 davout i'm really not sold on this "has to be able to alpha centauri" requirement
13:49 asciilifeform it's the WHOLE FUCKING POINT of a reference client.
13:50 davout it really depends on what you mean by "reference client"
13:50 asciilifeform it means, first and foremost, WORKING bitcointron
13:50 ben_vulpes davout: why would you even consider releasing a patch that leaves trb unable to cook and transmit transactions? keep it on your table where it's useful to you.
13:50 asciilifeform and not 'working but you gotta go to some unspecified junkyard and glue a new liver for it out of ??? first'
13:50 davout is it like the platinum "one meter" buried somewhere for "reference" or is it "the bitcoin implementation that is the reference because it's sane, it works, and can be used in production"
13:51 asciilifeform it'd be one thing if davout proposed the cut ~in tandem with~ a standalone walletron. even if it were made entirely out of the old one.
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13:51 trinque ^ would be entirely reasonable
13:51 davout asciilifeform: i never said this wasn't on the table
13:51 asciilifeform davout: it defines ~what bitcoin is~
13:51 asciilifeform in order to do this, it must WORK
13:51 davout yeah, really not very hard to be in agreement here
13:52 asciilifeform mircea_popescu had a pretty good imho description of the necessary cutting-apart of trb
13:53 asciilifeform but to remove vital organs and replace them with 'promise to give new liver later!!!' is lunacy.
13:53 davout but also appreciate the fact that i'm a fine position to know what is painful, retarded, and needs to die in bitcoin when it comes to issuing transaction
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13:53 asciilifeform davout: pretty much everyone tuned in has experienced firsthand the retardation of the old walletron.
13:54 davout asciilifeform: i don't think you understand what i'm after, what i'm trying to get to is "sane and explicit knobs" instead of "here use this $magicfee"
13:54 asciilifeform what are the knobs, davout , if you remove the wallet and offer no equivalent replacement ?
13:54 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608173 << doubful that's in question; still working both sides of the cut at once will be instructive
13:54 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 18:53 davout: but also appreciate the fact that i'm a fine position to know what is painful, retarded, and needs to die in bitcoin when it comes to issuing transaction
13:54 asciilifeform if , using your trb, i cannot transact ?
13:54 davout i'm really not sure where this "no equivalent replacement" comes from
13:55 trinque gotta define for example how cut-wallet keeps balance
13:55 asciilifeform davout: you just said that you have not yet produced a replacement ?
13:55 davout trinque: wallet has keys, asks for unspent outputs to bitcoin client, deduces balance
13:55 asciilifeform tell me why a cut should be so much as considered for ten seconds without a ready, tested replacement.
13:55 davout asciilifeform: there's a difference between "not yet" and "never"
13:55 trinque asciilifeform: gotta define the cut to define the replacement
13:56 asciilifeform why not also cut out mempool ? 'oh we'll make new one LATERZ!!!! PROMISE!'
13:56 trinque you're getting ridiculous
13:56 asciilifeform why not throw out all of bitcoin ? oh we'll make new one next year.
13:56 asciilifeform aha.
13:56 trinque guy's entirely ready to discuss the thing
13:56 trinque and you're making it out to be something he never argued
13:57 asciilifeform snipping old wallet is a trivial patch, i suspect that any and each of trb folx could re-create it in half hour
13:57 trinque this whole thead could've been "I will not sign the excision unless it brings also the replacement wallet" ... "k" ... fin
13:57 asciilifeform trinque: that part is quite obvious and goes without saying
13:58 asciilifeform but not only will i not sign such a thing, i question the sanity of anyone who would.
13:58 asciilifeform prior to a replacement being ready.
13:58 trinque I can't find davout saying he refused to provide such a thing in his patch
13:59 asciilifeform trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608149
13:59 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 18:47 davout: not yet
13:59 thestringpuller davout: wallet has keys, asks for unspent outputs to bitcoin << don't you have to be "watching" an address while indexing to get this info?
14:00 asciilifeform thestringpuller: if you want it in O(1) , yes
14:00 asciilifeform otherwise you get it in O(N).
14:00 davout thestringpuller: UTXO set is ~2gb tops, indexing might be nice but necessary to scan for UTXOs that match a given set of addresses, also the wallet part can cache them if that particular wallet is the only one able to actually spend those UTXIs
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14:00 davout *UTXOs
14:00 asciilifeform i.e. half hour or so (and destined to linearly increase forever) per shot.
14:01 trinque there was a decent thread on how 'wallet' end up being 'arbitrary declared index of declared addresses'
14:01 trinque strike one declared
14:01 davout trinque: text files with private keys sounds like the sane approach to me
14:02 trinque were you going to interrogate the utxos every block or something?
14:02 asciilifeform davout: if you're happy to wait for 30 min to an hour every time you unsheath the 'launch codes' -- then yes.
14:02 trinque now I see what lacks definition here.
14:02 davout asciilifeform: tbh i haven't measured it, but scanning 2gb of ram shouldn't really take that long
14:03 asciilifeform davout: afaik we do not have this cache.
14:03 davout also the UTXO set might very well decrease
14:03 asciilifeform nor is there any promise from any god that it will stay below 2GB, or 20, or 20,000, it is doomed to increase
14:03 davout asciilifeform: yeah well, if we're going to debate what "we don't have yet" we're not going to get very far
14:03 asciilifeform now why would it decrease ?
14:03 asciilifeform nao i'm curious
14:04 thestringpuller is there a way to scrape the UTXO set in TRB or do you have to do that manually as of now?
14:04 davout asciilifeform: take 20 UTXOs spend them in one go to a single address, poof! UTXO set has shrunk
14:05 asciilifeform davout: this is theoretically possible. in practice it seems like the direct opposite happens ?
14:05 asciilifeform infinite 'dust' fragging
14:05 davout thestringpuller: you're asking me what trajectory i'm going to take at 200mph for that turn, i'm at the point where i'm still wondering how to turn the goddamn car on
14:05 asciilifeform davout: my point was solely that a car sans-brakes is not a car
14:05 asciilifeform but coffin on wheels.
14:05 davout asciilifeform: a sane wallet would make it very easy to avoid dust fragmentation
14:05 asciilifeform and should not turn on at all.
14:05 asciilifeform davout: it would. but we haven't one yet.
14:06 thestringpuller davout: no. I'm just curious if there is a way to scrape UTXO's now, cause for my wallet tron I'm scraping blocks themselves. Def not O(n). (don't laugh)
14:06 asciilifeform and cutting out the old one , does not add up to even 0.1% of the work.
14:06 davout asciilifeform: granted, is it ok with you if i give it a goddamn shot?
14:06 asciilifeform give, give
14:06 asciilifeform but it is strange to begin with removing old one.
14:06 asciilifeform cut old liver ~when new one is sitting on the table, steaming, ready to transplant~
14:06 davout asciilifeform: granted
14:07 asciilifeform then i have nothing else to disagree with
14:07 davout but appreciate that i'm a fucking noob and i need to have something to get started, at least with the toolchain, not that it has to make official release until it's actually done you know
14:08 davout thestringpuller: i'm not sure what you mean by "scraping the UTXO" ?
14:08 thestringpuller probing is more accurate a term
14:08 asciilifeform davout: it is good, and healthy, to 'target practice' with the toolchain. but please try to clearly note this.
14:09 thestringpuller i'm using the blockchain itself to get the UTXO for forming new transaction when creating raw TX with bitcoin, this requires searching teh blockchain or using ben_vulpes tool
14:09 thestringpuller s/with bitcoin/with trb*
14:09 davout asciilifeform: well for example, the "remove signmessage and verifymessage" patch could very well be considered ready for production, it cuts something, not something anyone sane would actually depend on
14:09 asciilifeform i disagree that this would do any good.
14:10 davout lighter trb?
14:10 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: elaborate?
14:10 asciilifeform while it is imho stupid to generate such signatures and rely on them for any practical use,
14:10 asciilifeform there are historical signatures floating about, and one might wish to verify them
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14:10 davout thestringpuller: i see, currently it's really not practical
14:10 asciilifeform using the routine that the author of said signature intended.
14:11 davout asciilifeform: my emulated mp would answer that a dork that signed that way can't possibly sign something important
14:11 ben_vulpes yeah, btc sigs are silly
14:11 asciilifeform archaeology is not always about 'important' people.
14:12 trinque I don't see that it'd be a terrible sin to have multiple branches descending from current trb
14:12 trinque one of which strips the thing bare; another which is the reference
14:12 asciilifeform trinque: trb already exists in multiple branches, such is the nature of vtronics.
14:12 ben_vulpes perhaps a low-dough point: vpatches ensure that functionality will always be available, regardless of weight of "current" version
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14:12 trinque the former might help clear up the latter
14:12 davout asciilifeform: archaeologists can build a verifymessage-capable trb, couldn't they?
14:12 trinque asciilifeform: sure
14:12 asciilifeform trinque: 1 per user, in fact.
14:12 thestringpuller davout: that's why I think the UTXO probing is interesting. Easier to search ~2GB and ~100GB for the information you want.
14:12 trinque I am aware of that, or what I said next would make no sense
14:14 davout what version of gnu-awk are asciilifeform, trinque et al. using to have a usable vdiff.sh ?
14:14 asciilifeform davout: yes, they could 'rebuild historical trb' but imho if this is a kind of thing that ever becomes necessary, trb will have failed in its continuity-preserving mission.
14:15 ben_vulpes davout: GNU Awk 4.1.3, API: 1.1
14:15 trinque asciilifeform: consider our conversation about the openbsd patches in another castle
14:15 davout asciilifeform: the trb tree has a "continuity-preserving" mission, not "current trb official version"
14:15 asciilifeform trinque: link plz?
14:16 ben_vulpes davout: consider #!/bin/bash and set -e to make the thing die if any subprocesses return non-zero
14:16 trinque asciilifeform: http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema-mod6?d=2016-12-19#ca75f916-f2c1-46a7-b3ba-27b0ac6f3e26 << thereabouts
14:16 davout asciilifeform: with this kind of reasoning we'd end up keeping the "accounting" feature around
14:16 davout ben_vulpes: ty
14:16 trinque I don't think it's a sin for davout to go slashing and cauterizing in one direction, meanwhile reference client proceeds in another
14:16 asciilifeform davout: how's that follow?
14:16 trinque and eventually there's a process of regrinding and so on
14:16 trinque or his branch dies
14:17 asciilifeform davout: can you draw a scenario where you might say 'now if only we had not thrown out idiot accounts...'
14:17 davout asciilifeform: well, if you want to "keep everything" you end up keeping everything
14:17 asciilifeform did i say 'everything' ?
14:17 asciilifeform when ?
14:17 trinque "nothing but this particular arrangement of driftwood counts as actual reference trb"
14:17 trinque it does proceed that way
14:17 asciilifeform i said this ?
14:18 asciilifeform or somehow this was implied in my patches ? (where, note, i cut out entire useless subsystems, and shrank memory drain eightfold ?)
14:18 trinque there are goals at odds here. to fix the nightmare that is current trb, gotta start slashing til you have something that's able to be comprehended
14:18 davout asciilifeform: well, maybe for forensic purpose you want to open up an accounts-enabled legacy wallet? i don't know, sounds equally likely as "want to check signature some derp made in weird ways during ancient times"
14:19 asciilifeform davout: didja ever read mircea_popescu's 'cut apart' piece ?
14:19 ben_vulpes please no backwards compatibility holy shit
14:19 trinque this ends up meaning slashing probably everything that doesn't keep the current network protocol running
14:19 asciilifeform cutting-apart is a great thing.
14:19 asciilifeform it means that -- yes -- if i need to , i can open an ancient wallet.
14:19 davout and i really don't understand how keeping stuff around is sane when the functionality is an operator knob-turn away anyway
14:20 trinque it'd probably be better to be hollering at a patch than all this
14:20 asciilifeform davout: a walletron is pointedly ~not~ 'a knob turn away'
14:20 davout maybe we can have trb-classic then trollface.jpg
14:20 davout asciilifeform: we're talking about verifymessage and signmessage
14:20 asciilifeform suppose i gotta verify the signature on a malformed tx.
14:20 asciilifeform that enemy shoved in as attempt to exploit the node.
14:20 davout if you ~must~ verify one of those sigs you pull up a trb that can ~fin~
14:21 davout asciilifeform: you're conflating signatures on txes with signatures on arbitrary messages
14:21 davout it's in the "bells and whistles" box, not the "hot wire functionality" one
14:21 asciilifeform i get it, folx watched asciilifeform swing the axe, and it looked like great fun, nao everybody wants.
14:22 trinque ridiculous.
14:22 davout seriously?
14:22 asciilifeform but to lose functionality, however uncommonly needed, that does exactly 0 harm, and the loss of which reduces by no amount the labour of a trb code reader, is at best a snore.
14:23 asciilifeform srsly davout , trinque , you would compare 'verifymessage' to winblowz #ifdef crapolade ?
14:23 asciilifeform or to the orphanages ?
14:23 trinque I don't think anyone brought his cock into the matter
14:23 davout asciilifeform: no, was this comparison ever contemplated?
14:23 asciilifeform this is not the first thread of this kind, either.
14:24 asciilifeform and the last time, someone DID IN FACT SAY 'use python wallet'
14:24 asciilifeform and i still have not forgiven.
14:24 ben_vulpes heh who was that?
14:24 asciilifeform and it is 99% of my rage, re 'lose the wallet'.
14:24 trinque you gotta communicate more on-subj man; this is exasperating.
14:24 asciilifeform the even faint implication that i ought to so much as consider heathen nontrb wallets.
14:25 trinque guy was using the sign-message as an example for a smaller cut than the wallet
14:25 trinque and now we're on the n-th conversation fork
14:25 asciilifeform anyway who wants to do the 10 minutes of work to prepare a wallet snip, go ahead, just be aware that you will have to repeat most of said work by the time replacement wallet is a thing.
14:26 davout asciilifeform: to me there is and remains a difference in kind between "the thing that defines what money is" and "the particulars of your personal wallet"
14:26 asciilifeform davout: you do not get to say that a walletless bitcoin distribution succeeds in 'defining money'.
14:26 asciilifeform it most assuredly does not.
14:26 asciilifeform in fact, until we nailed down the dependencies all the way down to the kernel and gcc, it was possible to argue that trb does not define bitcoin.
14:27 davout let's take an example
14:27 davout the way i see things, the "fee estimation" code must die
↖
14:27 davout not "be moved in external proggy", it must. die.
14:28 asciilifeform davout: this one, i agree with; mandate fee input on command line.
14:28 asciilifeform the estimator is of 0 use.
14:28 asciilifeform no one will miss it.
14:28 asciilifeform excellent example of 'what to cut'
14:28 asciilifeform and quite similar to the 'what is my ip' thing, which i shot.
14:28 davout wallet tells you what coin you can spend, you select the particular outputs, you define the outputs, it may warn you if the implied fee is ridiculous but that's it
14:29 davout asciilifeform: if trb provides sane endpoints the wallet can be written in whatever floats anyone's boat
14:30 asciilifeform davout: provide sane endpoints. i promise to read patch, and test, and help.
14:30 ben_vulpes i am still not sold on moving the wallet outside of what compiles as "trb"
14:30 asciilifeform but UNTIL new wallet EXISTS, i for one will sign no snips.
14:30 davout i'm not really sure whether transaction signature itself should stay in trb or be extracted out
14:30 davout ben_vulpes: can compile as separate binaries
14:30 ben_vulpes now /that/ i am sold on slicing from the node.
14:30 ben_vulpes davout: what /currently/ compiles as the single binary "trb"
14:31 asciilifeform davout, ben_vulpes : signatron belongs in a copper box with tiny hole drilled for one fiber.
14:31 trinque does sbcl also not only have to be able to interpret / compile common lisp; it must also provide a UI for you to generate statements in it?
14:31 asciilifeform and own battery.
14:31 asciilifeform trinque: sbcl is not a reference-implementation of anything.
14:31 ben_vulpes i don't see the benefits to the increase of binary compilation targets to 3 from the one extant.
14:31 asciilifeform (afaik no such thing ever existed for common lisp, because it was a sanely-defined -- i.e. paper -- standard.)
14:32 ben_vulpes 2, where one signs, perhaps.
14:32 trinque for someone with such unwieldy metaphors, allow me that one. whether it was an RI was not my point
14:32 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: crypto code belongs on separate box.
14:32 davout ben_vulpes: but even if separate binary i see this more as a "reference wallet" in the same way the "reference miner" demonstrates what a miner does, but isn't actually used by anyone professionnally issuing transactions
14:32 ben_vulpes davout: reference miner is still in trb bin.
↖
14:32 trinque nothing helps me generate a valid lisp statement for sbcl other than I pop one in
14:32 trinque from arse
14:32 trinque and it tells me "fuck you" or "yum"
14:33 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i am all for moving the miner to own binary. BUT you would then have to test it and somehow demonstrate that it in fact behaves IDENTICALLY to the original
14:33 trinque it doesn't have miles of hair just in case you wanted help writing a loop, or ...
14:33 asciilifeform grandfather's pistol.
14:33 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: no argument, but i do not see the point of moving output indexer into a separate bin given that it needs a live blockchain anyways.
14:33 davout ben_vulpes: yeh, not that the miner-snipping doesn't itch
14:34 ben_vulpes davout: there are many parts of a kalash that are not strictly ergonomic.
14:34 asciilifeform what i would like to do in this thread, is to ask folx to stop and think for half a minute about what differentiates trb from prb.
14:34 trinque look man, your condescension switch is jammed on.
14:34 davout asciilifeform: trb is about keeping the core, prb is about "moar featurez"
14:35 trinque must be right next to the "fork topic" button
14:35 asciilifeform also i admit to a deep curiosity, the folx itching to dump the wallet without offering a new one, what the hell are you lot transacting WITH ?
14:35 trinque the wallet does in no way define the operation of the protcol or validating blocks
14:35 asciilifeform prb ?
14:35 trinque "are you secret wreckers" ?
14:36 asciilifeform what do you intend to use ? you want to put #ifdefs in for the wallet ?
14:36 trinque the wallet merely generates inputs trb will validate or not independently of it
14:37 asciilifeform i asked very specific question. say davout makes a wallet-less trb. and for some reason we all embrace it and roll it into each his own personal vtree.
14:37 asciilifeform what the fuck to transact with , then ?
14:37 asciilifeform hand calculator ? abacus ?
14:37 trinque the guy already said ok to shipping a txn maker with the patch!!
14:37 asciilifeform that'd be a tremendously useful thing.
14:37 davout asciilifeform: i have no particular interest in indulging strawmen
14:38 asciilifeform remove-old-liver-then-immediately-install-new -- a-ok.
14:38 asciilifeform remove-old-liver-then-go-stroll-around-liverless -- not.
14:49 ben_vulpes phf: may i have a copy of your log backups?
14:49 ben_vulpes phf: and on this, the third consecutive day of asking, would you kindly acknowledge receipt?
↖ ↖
14:50 asciilifeform !~seen phf
14:50 jhvh1 asciilifeform: phf was last seen in #trilema 1 day, 22 hours, 3 minutes, and 31 seconds ago: <phf> so if you have a system that you implemented fast, but it's slow, but you know how to now slowly make it fast, you have a strategy. if you're chasing corner cases, running a profiler and get mostly flat distribution, writing in special cases, etc. you don't have one
14:51 asciilifeform prolly out in meatspace.
14:51 asciilifeform far from a console.
14:51 ben_vulpes or or or
14:52 asciilifeform or killed by martians.
14:52 ben_vulpes unless i misremember, the man is in the habit of at least mentioning prolonged absences.
↖
14:53 ben_vulpes which, subject to opsec constraints, is a fine thing to do.
14:53 asciilifeform iirc he vanished for 2wks once (turned out it was to bury some kin)
14:54 ben_vulpes was this before or after taking responsibility for critical infrastructure?
14:54 asciilifeform before, i think.
14:55 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: Framedragger oughta have same l0gz, let's ask him.
↖
14:55 asciilifeform Framedragger, can haz l0gz tarball ?
14:55 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: i can scrape btcbase as well as the next feller.
14:55 asciilifeform no, iirc he has proper db
14:55 asciilifeform not a scrape
14:56 ben_vulpes is it not bouncer logs -> html transform?
14:56 Framedragger false, no db. just bouncer logs
14:56 Framedragger no db thus far, anyway
14:56 ben_vulpes as i recalled.
14:56 asciilifeform aah
14:56 Framedragger nothing pretty. if any use, could give tarball of bouncer logs
14:56 ben_vulpes i *have* put some thought into this project, asciilifeform.
14:57 asciilifeform all i've got is (about 98% uptime) plain text l0gz.
14:57 Framedragger bouncer is actually quite nice, as phf said; that's what he had before, he wanted db for xrefs etc
14:57 ben_vulpes yes well i may as well just scrape btcbase at that point asciilifeform
14:57 Framedragger (if you make sure it autoreconnects, etc)
14:57 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: yeah, unless you're trying to bridge a specific and small gap, mine probably won't be of any use
14:57 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: no, i'm ready to eat the whole wad.
14:58 asciilifeform ben_vulpes's logtron is neato btw
14:58 ben_vulpes ty
14:58 asciilifeform my only nitpick is the colours, and i don't even know if it is my display calibrarion, or eyes, that balk.
14:58 ben_vulpes stylesheets welcome, btw.
14:58 ben_vulpes davout: ^^
14:59 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: try green in place of red, if you feel like playing with it
14:59 asciilifeform 0x00FF00 green.
15:05 ben_vulpes comme ca?
15:06 asciilifeform eh it's your box, use what colours you like.
15:06 ben_vulpes nono, as in go look at it now
15:07 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i meant, whole thing
15:07 ben_vulpes oh fucking highlight
15:07 * asciilifeform is fond of old-fashioned green crt terminals
15:07 Framedragger (i personally like the pink highlight, it's immediately noticeable but still readable)
15:08 asciilifeform if i were writing logtron, i'd go for green text , and names inverted (black on green) letters.
15:08 asciilifeform in fixed width letters.
15:08 Framedragger asciilifeform: yeah pure primary green, crt, i figued! hah
15:08 ben_vulpes i have very little appetite for futzing with css.
15:08 * asciilifeform does not know, from memory, how to make this
15:08 ben_vulpes am wasting time fixing the wp comment threading shitshow already.
15:10 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: you got considerably farther than i did, in re mp-wp
15:10 ben_vulpes this is not an honourable feat.
15:10 ben_vulpes but the use of a friend's backhoe to put in a septic system to replace the outhouse.
15:11 ben_vulpes but yes, fix the javascript only to find that it never worked in the first place, and the replytocom query parameter doesn't set the parent_id variable apparently at all
15:11 asciilifeform imho anything involving php is still outhouse. (albeit some outhouses are a step ahead of others, what with stone plinths and toilet paper roll holder, instead of earthen pit)
15:11 ben_vulpes sure, whatever. geotherm heated seat even.
15:12 ben_vulpes fact of the matter is that wp 2.7 does ~everything a person needs from a personal cms afaict.
15:12 ben_vulpes except of course threaded comments, and this and that and the other thing.
↖
15:12 trinque anything touching the web is an outhouse
15:12 trinque be ready to fill with dirt and dig another, and everything will be fine
15:13 ben_vulpes outhouses and trenchfoot. that's webdev!
15:16 Framedragger i'm still preferring http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-15#1503181 but granted, don't have a working "moderated but without captcha" comments solution. best i can think of is, write very light backend service to handle comment post requests, store them somewhere sensible, allow operator to accept/deny comments (could be flat text files)
↖
15:16 a111 Logged on 2016-07-15 10:31 Framedragger: regarding LAMP stacks and blog software: static site generators are there for a reason. significantly smaller codebases and attack surfaces cf. wordpress. just sayin'.
15:16 Framedragger files*
15:16 ben_vulpes Framedragger: you missed the good old days when i exported raw html from an org file
15:17 Framedragger ahh, sounds sexy :)
15:17 ben_vulpes not at all
15:17 ben_vulpes eventually grew to over sixty seconds per export run.
15:17 Framedragger well, no middleman nonsense at least, then
15:18 Framedragger why's that bad? i understand if the 'time it takes to render' function is exponential in some way or another, but if linear growth and less than say 30 min - what of it, really
15:18 ben_vulpes and i wanted comments, but did not want to bake myself further into an ossified tower of software retardation.
15:18 ben_vulpes Framedragger: because it is wholly unacceptable that i not be able to see the effects of changing one tag in the source files immediately.
15:19 Framedragger that does break the 'change, see immediate effects' loop, hm.
15:19 ben_vulpes remind me why we use computers again?
15:20 ben_vulpes Framedragger: for all of the time i have spent losing my mind in radioactive webtech mines i a) do not like the domain b) have zero desire to build half-baked solutions when ~fully baked ones exist
15:21 Framedragger re. a), i totally hear ya. i mean, who does. re. b), yes i can see that.
15:21 ben_vulpes logs and search will at the least provide interesting lessons in postgres design and optimization. writing my own disqus, not so much.
↖
15:21 Framedragger on the other hand, i could see the latter being *really* useful for many. granted, neither you or me are altruists.
15:22 ben_vulpes it's not even an altruism thing, it's a "do you serve a churning vat of cockroaches or kings with names"
~ 34 minutes ~
15:57 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: on the "oh noes apple broke more shit" thread, not only do pageup/down not work, but apple's own messenger wastes all the CPU that "Slack" left on the table
15:57 ben_vulpes it's GREAT
15:57 ben_vulpes make macs great again
15:57 ben_vulpes install openbsd on them
15:59 trinque jobs may have actually killed someone with his hands if he saw the "o look mother I put the apple watch inside the mac"
15:59 mod6 <+davout> mod6: ty, will try the gnu-awk thing << ok, gl. let us know how it goes. i've had this issue before myself. i ~think~ that's what I did to resolve it on my african box.
16:09 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: pgup/pgdown work on the box i have here
↖
16:09 asciilifeform home/end -- do not
16:09 asciilifeform there's gotta be a patch, somewhere.
16:10 asciilifeform even for winblows there are patches.
16:13 mircea_popescu o hai
16:13 mircea_popescu asciilifeform notrly. isn't it more fearsome in $trangelang ?
16:13 asciilifeform waiwat is
16:14 asciilifeform aaah the egg
16:14 asciilifeform imho it was nifty and ought to appear in other langs.
16:14 asciilifeform incl. pygmistani.
16:15 mircea_popescu tough as nails to translate though
16:15 mircea_popescu it's very heavily formalistic.
16:16 * asciilifeform can picture.
16:19 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608137 << who the everloving would shoot the dumb fuck. nobody can be bothered to even shoot IN her, let alone at her.
16:19 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 18:04 asciilifeform: but in latest lulz, http://archive.is/8G35m >> 'O’Grady was mistakenly identified this week as a Secret Service agent (also named Kerry O’Grady) who is under investigation for posting a statement on Facebook that appeared to indicate she preferred jail over being shot and killed for President Trump.'
16:19 mircea_popescu this #1 disease of the failed female, "if i were your wife i'd poison your coffee."
16:20 mircea_popescu bitch, you're nobody's wife and there's a reason for that.
16:26 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608165 << it's the right process. if you aim to cut function out, first separate it, then produce replacement. modularize, as it were.
16:26 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 18:51 asciilifeform: it'd be one thing if davout proposed the cut ~in tandem with~ a standalone walletron. even if it were made entirely out of the old one.
16:27 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it's pretty well demarcated. grep -i -r wallet *
16:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes but there's no clean way currently for me to replace old-wallet with davout-wallet. so in that sense, modularize the wallet out of the code.
16:28 asciilifeform in point of fact if trb knew how to eat raw tx, you have the knob, neh?
16:29 ben_vulpes "tcp inject"!
16:29 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: requiring faraday cage microcontroller tx gen box to speak whole bitcoin protocol, is imho nuttery
16:30 asciilifeform not to mention asking it to have a nic
16:30 asciilifeform with which to tcp
16:30 asciilifeform unidirectional fiber light plox.
16:30 ben_vulpes yeah,
16:30 ben_vulpes i see it
16:30 asciilifeform btw i found toslink modules for ~35 cents ea.
16:31 ben_vulpes wait no i don't, why is tx-gen box to be offlined and not the signing box?
16:31 mircea_popescu they're not expensive.
16:31 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes recall the cut article ?
16:31 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 'gen' meant as signer also
16:31 ben_vulpes i shall reread aaaagain
16:31 asciilifeform as per mircea_popescu 's sketch
16:33 ben_vulpes "coinbases" in this post means something rather different from what i've come to know them as eg the block subsidy
16:33 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes all coins are the same thing.
16:33 ben_vulpes let us sweep the floor then, and settle the semantics. "unspent transaction out" is now "coinbase" according to mircea_popescu ?
16:34 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608204 << this brings back an ancient discussion re the most likely failure mode of bitcoin. technically speaking there's 2.1 quadrillion coins which may in principle move independently, worth ~100 bytes each.
16:34 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 19:00 davout: thestringpuller: UTXO set is ~2gb tops, indexing might be nice but necessary to scan for UTXOs that match a given set of addresses, also the wallet part can cache them if that particular wallet is the only one able to actually spend those UTXIs
16:34 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes an "uxto" discusses an aspect of a coinbase.
16:35 ben_vulpes i am under the impression that a coinbase would not need to be injected, but that the individual utxos do need to be.
16:36 mircea_popescu all coins, in the sense of agglomerations of satoshi, exist as descendents of an original block subsidy, and in that sense ARE coinbases ; much like electrons or photons are wave functions. they manifest verifiably in certain points, as "unspent transaction outputs" ; muych like waveform collapses. they interact with matter, in certain ways,this is called a transaction.
16:37 mircea_popescu now this ontological preoccupation is of no great practical importance, which is why people don't generally gas past "hey it's an uxto"
16:38 mircea_popescu much like nobody seriously bothers to say "the wavefunction that is office chair"
16:39 ben_vulpes k.
16:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: as i understand it, a defragging tx weighs exactly same as fragging tx , though
16:41 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the defragging is an antientalpy movement.
16:41 mircea_popescu technically speaking sticking people back into their mother's cunts to get two people out of a litter of 12 also costs the same.
16:41 mircea_popescu it's just not done in practice is all.
16:41 asciilifeform but why in this case is it so, if defrag tx takes up no moar space than the original fragging tx
16:41 mircea_popescu as time wears on, more and more tinier and tinier bits of coin carry irreducible meaning, and can't be defragged
16:42 asciilifeform why they cannot be defragged ?
16:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform think of evolution of holy roman empire. currently, block of thousand btc all carry the same meaning, "we belong to holy roman emperor".
16:42 mircea_popescu three generations later, all of saxony is 500 duchies, princely domains etc the size of your yard.
16:42 mircea_popescu defrag, how ? force of arms, maybe.
16:42 asciilifeform then comes hitler and glues all back together,
16:43 asciilifeform neh?
16:43 mircea_popescu kinda what bitcoin doesn't want though.
16:43 mircea_popescu from the pov of the network, glueing together is technically speaking a loss.
16:43 mircea_popescu of "value" in a very novel, post-bitcoin, deeply information-theoretic interpretation of the term.
16:43 asciilifeform how is '1 satoshi per cockroach' an improvement vs '10 lords with 10'000 btc ea.' .
16:44 mircea_popescu more information.
16:44 mircea_popescu hence more utility.
16:44 asciilifeform noise, not info.
16:44 mircea_popescu this is the definition of racism.
16:44 asciilifeform whothefuck cares about roaches.
16:45 mircea_popescu tell you what, to the stupid cunts getting pregnant at 13 and failing to learn how to wash or twerk by 16, the little details of their dirty interiors are relevant.
16:45 asciilifeform they can use pieces of eight, dubloons, rubles.
16:45 mircea_popescu yes, but as they progress so does the bitcoin fragment.
16:46 asciilifeform incidentally what does a tx to consolidate N addrs having 1 satoshi each, weigh, in terms of N
16:46 asciilifeform ?
16:47 mircea_popescu anyway. war in this sense, as in napoleon invading, is a loss of information. ie, library burning.
16:47 mircea_popescu ~N.
16:47 asciilifeform noshit space in O(N)
16:47 asciilifeform but i'd like an actual byte constant per.
16:47 mircea_popescu did i misunderstand teh q ?
16:48 mircea_popescu ah about 96-128 or so
16:48 asciilifeform so we can say how many can live in a block.
16:48 asciilifeform aah
16:48 mircea_popescu depends on factors and things but as degree of magnitude it's there.
16:49 mircea_popescu so yes, if we aim to go from "all coinbases = 1 satoshi" through merger to "all coinbases = 2 satoshi" we're looking at a whole shitload of blocks.
16:49 asciilifeform so at max fragocalypse, one might have situation where to move 100 satoshi, occupies a block
16:49 mircea_popescu this is the only part of the system that's truly badly designed. the node/miner thing, meh, that's iffy.
16:50 mircea_popescu but this one ... well, the numbers actually don't work.
16:50 mircea_popescu asciilifeform a block is a mb. 10k satoshi.
16:50 asciilifeform aah yea
16:50 mircea_popescu note that the per-block value is liable to stay ~constant ; it certainly varies less than the price of bitcoin for instance. so those satoshi will always be worth a lot in fiat terms anyway
16:51 mircea_popescu anyway, the issue of fees hopefully limits the smallest practical unit to maybe 1k or so, which blessfully shaves 3 zeros from the problem, and at the right end
16:51 asciilifeform in same respect, it would likely cost quite a bit to collect gold contacts from every old cpu in every junkyard.
16:51 mircea_popescu it still doesn't solve it thought
16:51 asciilifeform but notice, folx do collect the gold. it is +ev.
16:51 mircea_popescu asciilifeform gold is worthless for the exact reason goldbugs/idiots think it better than bitcoin. no scaling, because anchored to irrelevancy
16:52 davout seems to me like defragging could be a thing given the correct tools
16:52 asciilifeform going strictly on industrial gold for this example
16:52 mircea_popescu davout not really a problem of tools.
16:53 asciilifeform (incidentally, though unanswerable, would be interestig to learn what the purely industrial worth of gold would be.)
16:53 mircea_popescu asciilifeform ~0, oversupplied.
16:53 mircea_popescu neodymium worth moar.
16:53 davout i make pretty much all of my txes by hand and fragmentation is something i try to avoid as much as possibru
16:54 davout and in this regard, doing-by-hand certainly has value, in the sense that i don't end up with dust
16:54 mircea_popescu davout the problem discussed is where the most serene republic spans 85 million stars and a trillion planets and everyone involved holds a few satoshi and ten thousand times more slaves.
16:54 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: not really oversupplied, there are quite a few unplated contacts in use.
16:54 davout and whenever i do i manage to glue it to sane txen in order for it not to be dust anymore
16:54 asciilifeform if alchemy tomorrow -- would all get plated in au.
16:54 davout mircea_popescu: i can see that too, not much that can be done though
16:54 asciilifeform consider the discovery of electrolytic aluminum refining.
16:54 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this is like thinking if universities stopped stupidifying girls tomorrow you'd get good service at the diner.
16:55 mircea_popescu i tried this ; it doth not work irl.
16:56 mircea_popescu davout the thing that SHOULD be done about it is make it work in such a way it doesn't choke in its own fumes. not that i know how to do that.
↖
16:56 asciilifeform happened, for good or ill, with cpu cycles ('why the fuck there is a computer in my flashlight' thread), plastics, LED, etc.
16:56 mircea_popescu (and such not knowing is a large part of what moderates any interest i might have in greenlighting i-b work_
16:56 asciilifeform cheapola -> folx find 10,001 uses.
16:57 mircea_popescu asciilifeform did i tell you about the led crotchless "underwear" ?
16:57 asciilifeform no?
16:57 mircea_popescu it's actually pretty cool ; can't possibly miss even in the dark. also cunt looks good in it.
16:58 davout mircea_popescu: what's i-b ?
16:58 asciilifeform does it use gurljuice for battery electrolyte?
16:58 mircea_popescu davout ideal bitcoin. a putative v2.0 / replacement / fork.
16:59 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nah, all the ones i've seen use normal 1.5v watch battery.
16:59 asciilifeform aah like the electroluminescent shirts.
16:59 mircea_popescu yep
17:01 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: we had a thread a while back re 'fragless' coins
17:01 mircea_popescu a coupla, yeah.
17:01 asciilifeform but i can't seem to turn it up
17:02 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-31#1532594 for instance
17:02 a111 Logged on 2016-08-31 18:02 mircea_popescu: until the coinbase halves, you can only use 50 btc ; then 25 and 12.5 etc.
17:03 mircea_popescu still, none of this solves the fundamental problem, which is : as more and more people get involved, the cost of reporting each transaction to everyone else balloons.
17:03 mircea_popescu yes, property is functionally as well as fundamentally "this is mine which means it's not yours nor yours nor yours nor - i see you there hiding in the back, yours either!"
17:03 mircea_popescu nevertheless, once the headcount crosses millions into billiosn, well... forgetaboutit.
17:04 ben_vulpes this one also continues to boggle me: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-05#1422790
17:04 a111 Logged on 2016-03-05 18:53 asciilifeform: ditto address-generation from mining.
17:04 davout ben_vulpes: how?
17:05 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: picture 'coins as planets, discovered planet? you have a coin' approx.
17:05 mircea_popescu that;s more or less how it works now.
17:05 ben_vulpes i never successfully worked through how transacting would work
17:05 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: same as now.
17:06 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 'planet x, provably mine, now belongs to ben_vulpes ', signed, asciilifeform
17:06 ben_vulpes is there some amount of "mine for privkey" involved?
17:07 ben_vulpes in addition to "mine for subsidy"?
17:07 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: not necessarily.
17:07 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: as gedankenexperiment, imagine if we went 'primes above 1000^10000 are now coins'
17:08 asciilifeform then if you find one, you nail it down by claiming , signed,
17:08 mircea_popescu this is an old and afaik failed experiment
17:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it is impractical to make as drawn here.
17:08 asciilifeform so could not have failed.
17:09 asciilifeform the necessity mathematical object was not afaik ever discovered.
17:09 ben_vulpes "address-generation from mining" literally does not compute for me unless there's some amount of "pubkey hash must meet this criteria" a la bitcoin
17:12 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608249 << i honestly don't see the problem with taking out the bitcoin signature idiocy.
17:12 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 19:10 asciilifeform: there are historical signatures floating about, and one might wish to verify them
17:12 mircea_popescu in my extensive practice as a major economic agent i never either wanted to or did bother to verify one.
17:13 asciilifeform in my extensive practice as an absolute nobody -- i also did not. but supposed that someone -- could.
17:13 mircea_popescu so that someone could go hang.
17:13 mircea_popescu "signatures" has as much business being part of bitcoin as sink has being part of car.
17:13 mircea_popescu tyvm, but no.
17:14 asciilifeform no golden toilet either?!
17:14 ben_vulpes heat flux through butt on gold toilet turns out -- not pleasant
17:14 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: panda fur gasket on there for a reason!
17:15 ben_vulpes aha
17:16 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: how do you square this "someone mighta" with "nothing for allcomers", and in particular "a specific thing for nobody"?
17:16 mircea_popescu i think he was just being contrarian, isn't seriously holding the position.
17:16 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: existing code is privileged omfg what part of this is hard to grasp
17:16 mircea_popescu it's a cheap and welcome cut, reduces the codebase, that and the idiotic "alert messages" are certainly next to snip
17:17 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what alert messags
17:17 mircea_popescu the thing gavin thought constitutes the basis of his importance.
17:17 asciilifeform i killed those right after baking the genesis
↖
17:17 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/patches/bitcoin-asciilifeform.3-turdmeister-alert-snip
17:17 mircea_popescu omfg the original code is priviledged what part of this is hard to grasp!!1
17:17 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes do you mind ? i'm having a quality moment here with the alf.
17:18 asciilifeform lel
17:18 ben_vulpes i excised my humor subsystems last year
17:18 asciilifeform iirc there was a mircea_popescu parable where someone attaches a parasite to a wife and somebody else objects to removing, because 'how do you know where it ends and other it begins'
17:19 asciilifeform or mebbe i dreamed it.
17:19 mircea_popescu well there is that but nevertheless, guy said plainly he's noob tring to learn.
17:19 asciilifeform therr is a whole dream-trilema that asciilifeform sometimes reads in sleep.
17:19 mircea_popescu this is exactly how that goes.
17:19 * asciilifeform brb, teatime
17:21 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608633 <<< o noes, mebbe someone important we never heard about had something important to alert about
17:21 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 22:17 asciilifeform: i killed those right after baking the genesis
17:21 * davout could not resist.
17:22 ben_vulpes http://cascadianhacker.com/perceived-vs-actual-barriers-to-homeownership-for-young-adults/comment-page-1#comment-178 << asciilifeform responded, also comments properly threaded nao
17:23 mircea_popescu i gotta see this wonder, ch display possibly one of the more atrocious
17:23 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes dawg you aware your articles go in this 160px column ?
17:23 ben_vulpes thanks
17:23 ben_vulpes thanks mircea_popescu
17:23 ben_vulpes patches welcome
17:23 mircea_popescu no see, that's the problem
17:23 mircea_popescu it's already the size of a patch
17:24 ben_vulpes which browser
17:24 mircea_popescu if i were a pirate i couldn't read it altogether.
17:24 mircea_popescu https://archive.is/K7FvY < see ?
17:25 deedbot http://cascadianhacker.com/gaze-upon-their-works-ye-mighty-and-tremble << CH - Gaze upon their works, ye mighty, and tremble
17:25 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: that's not a browser
17:25 mircea_popescu unexpected objection...
17:26 ben_vulpes i will not defensively css against the width at which archive.is renders websites
17:26 mircea_popescu try browsershots or something ?
17:27 ben_vulpes There were already 188 screenshot requests for cascadianhacker.com today.
17:27 ben_vulpes Please create a user account for more screenshot quota.
17:27 mircea_popescu went south did it ?
17:27 ben_vulpes > click here for previous ...
17:27 ben_vulpes > 404
17:27 mircea_popescu heh
17:27 ben_vulpes this is so cool!
17:28 mircea_popescu used to be cool, thbat thing
17:28 ben_vulpes 0/2
17:29 mircea_popescu Browser shots Sorry service is down for maintanence << dude they're not even trying anymore, the web's deader than shannen doherty's career
17:30 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608258 << not so low.
17:30 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 19:12 ben_vulpes: perhaps a low-dough point: vpatches ensure that functionality will always be available, regardless of weight of "current" version
17:30 ben_vulpes i didn't know anyone browsed the web with browsers anyways, i thought the en vogue thing to do was just to read the source and sort of intuit where the boxes went
17:31 ben_vulpes guessing at definitions from context, but with all the excitement of html css and js
17:31 * ben_vulpes beer, meat, carbs
17:32 mircea_popescu i thought you wrote all this shit on a touchpad anyway.
17:32 ben_vulpes with my dong
17:33 ben_vulpes highly prehensile, or prezhensile as the tenderqueers would say
17:33 mircea_popescu ahahaha
17:38 mircea_popescu holy shit two hours of this nonsense
17:38 mircea_popescu asciilifeform why the fuck are you so obstructive anyway
17:39 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: because if folx must ruin bitcoin via discontinuity ('you can always dig up historical code laters'), non-exhaustive pseudo-reference implementations, etc. i'd rather they understood what they were doing.
17:40 asciilifeform burn down your house ~deliberately~, if you must, not by playing with matches as 3 y.o.
17:40 mircea_popescu dude...
17:42 mircea_popescu in the time everyone spent arguing with various phantoms they could have actually done all the work that was therein contemplated.
17:42 mircea_popescu this can't continue.
17:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: implementing sane wallet is easily a man-year.
17:43 mircea_popescu the two items discussed were "modularize wallet" and "remove btc address signatures". they're in the 2-5 hour range for a very careful single engineer.
17:43 asciilifeform signature is 5min work yes.
17:43 asciilifeform 'modularize wallet' is a man-year.
17:44 asciilifeform btw since folx are itchy to snippety-snip, i will note, there is actual dead code in trb
17:44 asciilifeform take gnu profiler, run, you will find it
17:45 asciilifeform (i am speaking strictly of provably-unreachable routines. there are others that could be snipped, with some work, without affecting semantics)
17:46 asciilifeform for the most part, asciilifeform did not touch any of this code. reasoning was, that it is part of the historic record.
17:46 asciilifeform killing gavin's remote backdoor is not comparable, it was a necessary part of 'first do no harm'
17:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform at issue is your very poor (through being inflexible) best scenario/worst scenario context switching. so : it is the habit of engineers to consider the worst scenario when building a house, which is how houses end up 3.5x structurally stronger than thyey need to be. because holy hell, what if rocks fall or the ground moves or there's very wet snow or some idiot gets confused and parks his car on your roof. howev
17:48 mircea_popescu er, when discussing things people do, especially their plans, a best scenario is to be employed, becuause people aren't fucking amelia bedelia and if they are we want to find out.
17:48 mircea_popescu it's safe to assume he's not about to do something stupiud in all the places it's not exhaustively clear what he actually means to do. and if he does do something stupid all the better, we get to laugh at him later.
17:48 asciilifeform a reasonable house has 7+x over-strength.
17:48 mircea_popescu people aren't objects and vice versa, you gotta context switch.
17:48 asciilifeform bridge -- 20.
17:48 mircea_popescu everything in the us is 2.2 these days. but whatever the actual value might be.
17:49 asciilifeform but to rewind: i do not object to davout mutilating his own personal trb however he likes. however i do object to calling a trb-minus-any-wallet a 'reference implementation'.
17:49 asciilifeform ditto trb-minus-any-miner.
17:49 asciilifeform ditto trb-minus-mempool.
17:49 mircea_popescu cross that bridge when you get to it.
17:50 mircea_popescu do you have any fucking idea how many bridges we crossed when we got to them to get here ?
17:50 mircea_popescu read my fucking lips : ALL OF THEM.
17:51 asciilifeform my objection is not 'davout Broke Trb oh noez!!' but to the thought process that might lead an otherwise literate d00d to contemplate a 'reference' that lacks vital organs as a valid thing
17:51 asciilifeform because clearly our priors diverged somewhere
17:51 asciilifeform and i would like to know ~where~.
17:52 mircea_popescu i don't see that happened.
17:52 asciilifeform perhaps it did not.
17:52 asciilifeform but i would like to know, if it had.
17:52 mircea_popescu well you didn't ask, either, did you.
17:52 asciilifeform iirc jurov , for instance, specifically said 'hey you can go and use this python wallet'
17:52 asciilifeform and my jaw dropped
17:53 asciilifeform (this was in the last thread re subj, a while back)
17:53 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: do you remember the old leaden church roofs ?
17:53 asciilifeform (did we do this thread..?)
17:54 mircea_popescu iirc he said he used it without trouble.
17:54 asciilifeform this proves nothing.
17:54 asciilifeform heartbleed also sat 'without trouble'.
17:54 asciilifeform al schwartz wrote about the roofs, iirc it was. semiconductor firms replaced cathedral roofs all over europe, for 0 cost. just to get the valuable pre-hiroshima metal.
↖
17:55 asciilifeform ditto firms lifting old, ww1, ww2 battleships.
17:55 mircea_popescu yes yes, proves nothing, so what if it doesn't.
17:55 asciilifeform pre-2012 bitcoin code is a thing.
17:55 asciilifeform categorically.
17:55 asciilifeform like pre-hiroshima Pb.
17:56 mircea_popescu it'll still give you saturnism.
17:56 asciilifeform it is , largely, why we have v. because every line of post-2012, bitcoin-touching, code, is guilty-until-proven-innocent of plotting to steal.
17:57 asciilifeform and the only countermeasure is to keep the changes to grandfather's pistol, minimal, reviewable, 'fits in head.' and to retain old mechanisms when practical.
17:57 asciilifeform and if abandoning this -- may as well replace whole shebang.
17:57 asciilifeform i thought this was basic.
17:59 mircea_popescu there is some merit to this view. not as much as you imagine though. gavin was there, in 2012, and giving "talks" to the nsa, in 2011, and wondering out loud if that's certainly not why satoshi stopped talking to him.
17:59 asciilifeform for all i know, nsa was there on day 1.
17:59 asciilifeform but bitcoin was ~worthless.
17:59 mod6 <+ben_vulpes> make macs great again <+ben_vulpes> install openbsd on them << :D
18:00 asciilifeform so it is not that nsa was absent, no. it is the theft incentive, that was.
18:00 asciilifeform no one knew that the thing would take off.
18:00 mircea_popescu perhaps your understanding of incentive is not so strictly correct. pedophile who primes 9yo girl is not necessarily wrong in evaluating her sexual value a few years before it customarily becoems apparent.
18:00 mircea_popescu and plenty of people knew it would take off, which is how we're here.
18:01 asciilifeform even if pedo did not groom this gurl from birth, there is still ~bottomless well of bugs in openssl, boost, linux, etc.
18:01 asciilifeform which is why the clock on replacing trb, does run.
18:01 mircea_popescu sure.
18:01 asciilifeform fwiw i do not hold to 'trb 4evah!'
18:02 asciilifeform and in fact recall, i asked for trb, because i wanted The B00k
18:03 mircea_popescu now, this excursion in unrelated scary things complete, let's get back to it : give people the benefit of the doubt. if they fuck it up it's their problem not yours.
18:03 asciilifeform again, if davout breaks his trb, and signs off on a b0rk3d proggy, it does not 'pick my pocket or break my leg', mine will still work.
18:03 asciilifeform disagreement was wholly philosophical.
18:04 ben_vulpes moreover there is no harm in bringing a patch for discussion, and all of this durm and strang will discourage "patches alf doesn't like" even if just in the patcher's mind
18:04 asciilifeform i should hope that no one is discouraged from writing patch just because i barfed.
18:04 asciilifeform but forum exists partly to put on record, when we barf, why.
18:05 asciilifeform so that no one can later say 'oh so sad, reactor melted, but i had nfi, asciilifeform never barfed.'
18:05 mircea_popescu consider the fine case of mod6 's vtron since he said something. so he built a vtron, then later we decided didn't like how it works, he put the time in to understand the thing, fix it... all this happened because he made the first one ; and wouldn't have happened if we were just sitting 6months ago holding dicks and discussing it theoretically.
18:05 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: he certainly spared asciilifeform from the chore of maintaining full vtron
18:05 asciilifeform and i take off my hat, for this.
18:05 mircea_popescu it's always way the fuck better to say "i don't like what you did because" than to say "i don't like what i think it might be the case you say you intend to do because".
18:06 asciilifeform tru.
18:06 mircea_popescu there's no need for that tight coupling of intent anyway, not like we're trying to drive through an intersection here.
18:06 asciilifeform there is ~some~ win from ~some~ coupling, on account of the longest-chain/regrind thing
18:06 asciilifeform but sure.
18:07 mircea_popescu the regrinding is not a loss.
18:07 mircea_popescu i think you book it as a loss, but it is a gain.
18:07 mircea_popescu the more time people spend ~actually reading~ the same piece of code, the better. "i might have read it so it's as good as read" open source bs doesn't qualify here.
18:07 * asciilifeform can see mircea_popescu's picture
18:09 asciilifeform however it is not automatically given that by forcing folx to regrind, you make them attentively read
18:09 mircea_popescu piece of code A which has been read 8 times by 5 peoiple is thereby better, no questions, more valuable and more useful, than the SAME EXACT piece of code A read by its author alone.
18:09 asciilifeform it is ultimately an act of will.
18:09 mircea_popescu nobody's forcing anyone, they just get gently encouraged.
18:09 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: supposing they ~read~ it, and not merely ~read enough to overcome the regrind barrier~
18:09 mircea_popescu at some point the pile of chain overweighs the disinclination to read code.
18:09 asciilifeform fwiw i frequently curl up in bed with the thing. and read. until fall asleep.
18:10 mircea_popescu and then dream about reading trilema in aramaic
18:10 asciilifeform sometimes.
18:10 asciilifeform aramaic trilema is spiffy, recommended to all.
18:10 mircea_popescu gotta translate some pieces for us sometime :)
18:16 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: comment answrd.
18:18 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608327 << that's certainly a fine candidate.
18:18 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 19:27 davout: the way i see things, the "fee estimation" code must die
18:19 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: http://cascadianhacker.com/perceived-vs-actual-barriers-to-homeownership-for-young-adults/comment-page-1#comment-182
18:19 ben_vulpes aaaand we've exhausted the wp stack :D
18:20 ben_vulpes everything must be free, including 401k contributions BUT NOT SPEECH
18:20 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i read the linked piece, did not see 'free' ?
18:20 ben_vulpes no, i kid.
18:20 asciilifeform chumps still gotta drop in moneys, neh
18:20 asciilifeform for it to fill.
18:20 ben_vulpes on the other hand "b-b-b-but not real retirement plan because no employer match!"
18:20 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608353 << it'll very likely stay there forever, for the simple reason that a bitcoin miner that's proper is worth money so can't be given away for free, and if it's going to be improper then alf's 2012 argument prevails and just keep the old one.
18:20 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 19:32 ben_vulpes: davout: reference miner is still in trb bin.
18:21 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: it remains every bit as chumpatronic even if employer matches 1000%
18:22 asciilifeform or if obummer personally fellates you every time you put a hundy in
18:22 ben_vulpes no argument
18:22 mircea_popescu ew
18:23 ben_vulpes http://cascadianhacker.com/perceived-vs-actual-barriers-to-homeownership-for-young-adults/comment-page-1#comment-183 << but exponded upon nevertheless
18:23 mircea_popescu whole family is fugly wtf. better visuals.
18:23 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes expounded.
18:23 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: a rare typo
18:23 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 'must bite hook, to get the free worm' ?
18:23 ben_vulpes you f'r instance can't seem to get colander right
18:23 asciilifeform i dun see this 'must'.
18:24 ben_vulpes if you accept the thesis, it ain't a hook it's a free meal.
18:24 asciilifeform but why would you accept it
18:24 ben_vulpes because dipshit sarariman
18:24 asciilifeform fish -- yes, has brain the size of your little finger nail,
18:24 asciilifeform accepts hook worm.
18:24 ben_vulpes dipshit sarariman idem.
18:24 asciilifeform but you are not a fish.
18:24 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608382 << o wow ? i thought there was a protocol for this and everything
18:24 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 19:49 ben_vulpes: phf: and on this, the third consecutive day of asking, would you kindly acknowledge receipt?
18:25 * mircea_popescu is behind teh times
18:25 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: make no mistakes, i bite zero hooks myself
18:25 mircea_popescu i thought you were married.
18:25 ben_vulpes oho
18:25 ben_vulpes hurtful
18:25 mircea_popescu you bit that one eh :D
18:25 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 'Colt'45 Retirement Savings Co.' ftw.
18:25 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: "sepsis and wagner"
18:26 ben_vulpes "being of sound mind and body, i'm spending my money as fast as i can"
18:26 asciilifeform i'll go with the classic cyanide&wagner, tyvm
18:26 mircea_popescu isn't lotta cocaine way better ?
18:27 asciilifeform cocacyanide!1111 'совместить приятное с полезным'
18:27 asciilifeform (is there engl. idiom version of that?)
18:27 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: i dun see the hook, have staff on call 24/7. no harem, granted, but "ride or die bitch" worth a million hausfraus.
18:28 mircea_popescu buy : 1 month rent in slum ; 1 typewriter ; 1 stack of paper ; 1 sugar bowl, fill with pure cocaine ; 1 medium dildo.
18:28 mircea_popescu use the dust for lube, write your life's novel / memoirs / whatever.
18:28 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: burroughs!
18:28 mircea_popescu should take < 1 week.
18:28 mircea_popescu m0ore or less ya
18:28 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes isn't that what the fish said ?
18:29 ben_vulpes now, mosquito perhaps more accurate.
18:29 ben_vulpes gut flora maybe
18:30 ben_vulpes or good old fashioned frontier bride, why all the haet
18:30 mircea_popescu anyway. i'm not proposing your life choices are invalid. i am saying the form of the argument is broken. it's easy to pretend like you know better than fish while not being fish. in point of fact fish does as best he can
18:30 mircea_popescu (you're invited to go fishing, discover fish will eat your bait and not bite)
18:30 asciilifeform even if you only ever kept a mousetrap, you will learn this.
18:30 mircea_popescu did i recount the famous episode of my mother fishing btw ?
18:31 asciilifeform mice are astonishingly adept at 'free' cheese-getting.
18:31 mircea_popescu aha.
18:31 asciilifeform the last time i 'worked with' mice, i was quite convinced that they ~knew~ what is a mousetrap. and had 'sappers'.
18:32 asciilifeform rats, at the very least, ~have~ sappers.
18:32 asciilifeform designated expendables.
18:33 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608394 << oh right, maybe it was then. ben_vulpes didja dig it up from log ?
18:33 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 19:55 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: Framedragger oughta have same l0gz, let's ask him.
18:33 mircea_popescu im pretty sure he published a log backup url somewhere.
18:33 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: perhaps under explained in "if you accept the thesis" where <thesis> is entire stack of usgola. yes, 401kholder seeks to eat cheese, turn around put money into house do all the clever tricks with it. also many don't! and many like myself look at the whole thing as a stupid intellectual complexity trap not worth entertaining.
18:33 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: keep reading
18:33 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: it is however quite true that there are very real costs to rejecting the gargle.
18:34 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes you also don't have the sort of job they do. what's office drone in heart of usg do, something TO STAND OUT ? holy shit.
18:34 asciilifeform for instance, as chronicled here, asciilifeform's sweat to find new flat
18:34 asciilifeform or how i pay 3x per square metre vs. 'mortgaged' folx
18:34 ben_vulpes they already wear skirts paint nails
18:34 ben_vulpes although i suppose enough do it that none of them risk ostracization for it now
18:34 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: i am i shit you not considering moving the brood back into the family domicile in 2019
18:35 ben_vulpes castle i should say
18:35 mircea_popescu the funny thing being that nonsense converges. "civil" and "common" law systems end up giving almost identical "solutions" to the same problems notwithstanding they start from opposite priors. similarily, life of usg mandarin is very much like life of say japanese company man.
18:35 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i worked in the most abject imaginable usg pits, no one gave half a shit re 401k. maybe if mega-brass.
18:35 mircea_popescu what's derpo-san to do, turn down company flat ?
18:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform rd is definitionally not heart of usg. try "health and human services expert analyst"
18:36 asciilifeform never been one of ~those~, no.
18:36 asciilifeform (i was once, and i shit thee not, 'research chemist'. not because knew any chemistry, but because there was -- i shit thee not -- no box to 'tick' in the form, for 'programmer')
↖
18:37 asciilifeform 'lab nigger' (per al schwartz)
18:37 mircea_popescu most chemists active in research today would greatly benefit from having half of brain cut out replaced with programmer.
18:37 mircea_popescu their fucking problems are "how to put this into excel"
18:37 mircea_popescu "why the fuck" "because i need to add the cells"
18:37 asciilifeform this was monumentally true.
18:38 asciilifeform right in front of my eyes, yes, every day.
18:38 mircea_popescu send them all back to fucking school, 90% of their time ends up spent doing insane chewing gum and spittle equivalent of unix pipes.
18:38 asciilifeform it was in fact what i did there, fill in this strange hole .
18:38 mircea_popescu and most research anything have the numeracy of a stripper.
18:39 asciilifeform eh these were foreign folx, they learned to arithmetize in school, beaten with bamboo.
18:39 asciilifeform ~0 usa-born anybody.
18:39 mircea_popescu no fucking concept of analysis, i'm not discussing hyperpeels or any nuttery, just merely the concept of hey, if it's a function i can derive it, find the inflections, DRAW IT. yes with the fucking draughtsman kit.
18:39 mircea_popescu no serious familiarity with statistics, nothing even remotely useful.
18:39 mircea_popescu and they stink of it, too.
18:40 asciilifeform maybe over in the 'social sciences' hole, this was.
18:40 asciilifeform in my hole, statistize was ~all ~anybody did.
18:40 mircea_popescu yes, as a follow the motions thing.
18:40 asciilifeform and ~occasionally~ poison a rat.
18:41 mircea_popescu no ~serious familiarity~. just the average came-with-apartment bipedal cat's "hey, open fridge door, take out food it's how food works"
18:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: unfortunately meatware research ~selects~ for 'follow the motion' types. 'tis why i got out.
18:42 mircea_popescu yes well. by the time "scientist" is unable to ~comprehend~ what the fuck the numbers say about his data, i don't care what fucking calisthenics he does.
18:42 asciilifeform other types of people -- they burn, there, quickly.
18:42 asciilifeform die, of boredom.
18:42 mircea_popescu if i wanted to arab i'd be in cairo, they have fine mosqs.
18:42 mircea_popescu it's fucking annoying, too, "dude, whenever you increase your dataset your correlation goes down" "so should pick better data, right ?"
18:43 mircea_popescu yea einstein, you got yourself a nobel prize in global warming in the making there.
18:43 asciilifeform did they throw the warmists from strawberry trees yet ?
18:43 asciilifeform or is that still coming up
18:44 ben_vulpes epa is the latest word
18:44 mircea_popescu lol
18:44 ben_vulpes aca on the chopping block
18:45 ben_vulpes looking forward to the amd hike
18:45 asciilifeform nasa when.
18:45 ben_vulpes nasa now, fuck'em
18:45 mircea_popescu i thought bahamas did nasa
18:45 mircea_popescu they insulted his ancestors or something, i dun recall.
18:45 ben_vulpes quite dead serious. nasa is a zombie.
18:45 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: he cut the rockets'n'probes nasa, but fattened the warmist one
18:45 mircea_popescu that was a nasa ?
18:45 asciilifeform it is nao.
18:45 mircea_popescu no such nasa.
18:45 asciilifeform lel
18:46 ben_vulpes no such nasa makes sugar rockets that launch sideways
18:46 asciilifeform but yes, check out what gets printed under nasa banner, be amazed.
18:46 mircea_popescu *snoooorrrrt*
18:47 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608439 << you will notice trilema doesn't use these. this because i think they're idiotic.
18:47 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 20:12 ben_vulpes: except of course threaded comments, and this and that and the other thing.
18:47 ben_vulpes i did note. care to expunge?
18:48 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608443 << we don't ? when did this unhappen ?
↖
18:48 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 20:16 Framedragger: i'm still preferring http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-15#1503181 but granted, don't have a working "moderated but without captcha" comments solution. best i can think of is, write very light backend service to handle comment post requests, store them somewhere sensible, allow operator to accept/deny comments (could be flat text files)
18:48 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes yes. you are asking yourself to come up with a number which will be larger than the largest number of nested comments people may wish to make. if you're going to think like this might as well become a c++ specialist.
18:48 mircea_popescu "if i allocate what i think it should be the program crashes"
18:48 asciilifeform ftr ~already~ i cannot 'reply to' ben_vulpes's last comment.
18:48 asciilifeform apparently max depth was... 3?
18:48 ben_vulpes six
18:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform which is the problem. if it's gonna happen at all, then why not have it happen right off.
18:49 asciilifeform aha!
18:49 asciilifeform less fortranism plox.
18:49 asciilifeform not moar.
18:49 ben_vulpes what means fortranism in this context?
18:49 mircea_popescu he didn't want to say naggum-c because i said it already.
18:49 asciilifeform (or perhaps let's call it PL/Ism. 'you may have 250 functions. and recurse 7 deep.' etc)
18:49 ben_vulpes > "is renewable energy news at risk of becoming clickbait" bwaha
18:50 mircea_popescu yeah, and derpy "liberal" chicks who don't know how to dress or be useful in the house are in danger of becoming sought after.
18:50 mircea_popescu hurr durr news by fatties for fatties.
18:50 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: in barbaric times, folx often used fixed tables where expandable data structure would go today.
18:50 ben_vulpes yaok i get it. wp nesting limit even existing boggles my mind
18:50 ben_vulpes threaded replies is new to php devs? have never been on mailing lists?
18:50 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes it can't not exist because monitor is finite and it stupidly decided to nest by magic number allignment.
18:51 mircea_popescu this is not sustainabler.
18:51 ben_vulpes sutainabilitits
18:51 mircea_popescu so if "nested = 12 pixels" then you get a limit of 100 or so.
18:51 mircea_popescu "but what is monitor size ?" "dunno, best add a js lib"
18:52 ben_vulpes i am offended at the inadequacy of everything in this world
18:52 mircea_popescu if computers-were-magic(tm) then the thing would produce a virtual infinite space and the viewport would be dragged around across it, so you could follow diagonally
18:52 mircea_popescu this needless to say isn't how web works.
18:53 ben_vulpes the only thing that even halfway works is cunt.
18:53 mircea_popescu because it runs on perl.
18:53 ben_vulpes "ben_vulpes in for the layup, mircea_popescu with the duuuuuunk!"
18:54 mircea_popescu layup eh ?
18:54 mircea_popescu get up an' down an' layup all' around, move your ass to the left move your ass to the right...
18:54 * mircea_popescu sings
18:54 ben_vulpes isn't that what you call that thing in basketball where one dood drives in and puts the ball up for someone else to net?
18:54 ben_vulpes thestringpuller: probably knows
18:54 mircea_popescu i dunno, i'm not black.
18:54 ben_vulpes or did he grow up on comics and not spoarts
18:54 mircea_popescu shit gotta type faster.
18:55 ben_vulpes i would say "fight me irl" but you're the one #t denizen i don't think i'd have reasonable odds against
18:56 ben_vulpes entirely unrelatedly, ms beat the street
18:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608467 << lmao this feels like the early 80s all over again. "and which keys don't work on your kv-1, private stan ?"
18:56 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 21:09 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: pgup/pgdown work on the box i have here
18:57 ben_vulpes looks like apple's in for another lost decade
18:57 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes wait why ? i don't even lift!
18:57 ben_vulpes bro!
18:57 ben_vulpes bro!!
18:57 ben_vulpes you're absurdly tall and made out like a bandit in post-ussr ro
18:57 ben_vulpes that is worrisome
18:58 mircea_popescu drives teh wyminz nuts also, they work out till they drop, i never do, then i can you know, lift one in one arm and for some incomprehensible reason i got biceps the thickenss of their thighs. "BRO!!!" "hey, i got testosterone, it's great."
↖
18:58 ben_vulpes i only recently realized that i needed to be doing the heavy lifting on family outings
18:58 mircea_popescu easier time parking ?
18:59 ben_vulpes yeah let me just *oof* move this *hrunph* truck over *hurk* here baby
19:00 mircea_popescu next you turn green...
19:01 ben_vulpes nah, but carrying 27+lbs of kid plus groceries while i stare at the sky and contemplate nozzles that impart rotational inertia to the flugenbody is not time efficient; i can just as easily design while hefting bairns
19:01 ben_vulpes no need to impose all of the load on others
19:02 mircea_popescu or you could add pedals to your desk and produce your own electricity.
19:02 ben_vulpes electricity is an antipattern
19:02 mircea_popescu ok, olive oil then.
19:02 ben_vulpes eh just make more babies
19:02 ben_vulpes reduce excess baby into biodiesel
19:03 mircea_popescu https://reuelbrion.github.io/AgroTempus/ << from guy on trilema.
19:03 mircea_popescu working towards the ultimate tmsr goal. ben_vulpes does the miners, we got an autonomous noncorporeal state going
19:03 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> (you're invited to go fishing, discover fish will eat your bait and not bite) << AHA, this is where most bait goes.
19:05 ben_vulpes first
19:05 ben_vulpes pete_dushenski: https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-01-27/u-s-economic-growth-cools-on-biggest-trade-drag-since-2010
19:06 mircea_popescu lol 1.9% blow me down.
19:07 mircea_popescu o look, trade deficit widening.
19:07 mircea_popescu should be interesting to see what trump does re that only really important point.
19:09 ben_vulpes later y'all
19:10 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> Browser shots Sorry service is down for maintanence << dude they're not even trying anymore, the web's deader than shannen doherty's career << haha
19:13 mod6 <+asciilifeform> (i am speaking strictly of provably-unreachable routines. there are others that could be snipped, with some work, without affecting semantics) << indeed. i have collected some of these myself.
19:13 mircea_popescu btw, anyone here who hasn't played knight;s bounty (the legend) ?
19:13 mircea_popescu game's fucking epic.
19:24 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> if computers-were-magic(tm) then the thing would produce a virtual infinite space and the viewport would be dragged around across it, so you could follow diagonally << This is where Qntra CSS is masterpiece!
19:28 * BingoBoingo has not played
19:28 mircea_popescu for srs
19:29 BingoBoingo much srs
~ 27 minutes ~
19:57 mod6 <+ben_vulpes> isn't that what you call that thing in basketball where one dood drives in and puts the ball up for someone else to net? << this is an alley-oop
20:03 trinque layup's a finger roll around the side of the basket, horizontal spin on ball so it rolls along backboard and in
20:05 trinque more of a bank than roll along, but yeah
20:12 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/CFAA83DBA61419976C5A7EB332195CB3BB611760917DF59CE06273B247798B6D << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 9931...5093 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '177.234.7.205 (ssh-rsa key from 177.234.7.205 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
20:12 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/FEF1C6C9A890941640110AD479AFDEDCC6132445EEFB2D1F31C1D58AFF1DC4F4 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 9931...5093 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '177.234.13.9 (ssh-rsa key from 177.234.13.9 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX JAL)
20:12 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/5A35236F137FD211F772259BD5287EDE9AA09CD8A275F881C74BD97AB8BD0545 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 9931...5093 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '177.234.3.189 (ssh-rsa key from 177.234.3.189 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
20:12 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D21502DDC614160506D49019E3A101B1D769C3A49597CAB4B67CBBC0EF4E7592 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 9931...5093 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '177.234.1.5 (ssh-rsa key from 177.234.1.5 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
20:12 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/CFAA83DBA61419976C5A7EB332195CB3BB611760917DF59CE06273B247798B6D << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1054...6417 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '177.234.7.205 (ssh-rsa key from 177.234.7.205 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown MX CHH)
~ 19 minutes ~
20:31 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9E6C665F9E88721784B110AFFF0C32B26A7F76FBF9A23EDDA111C9BC9BED62B2 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1409...7323 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '78.139.73.56 (ssh-rsa key from 78.139.73.56 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (56-73-139-78.kamensktel.ru. RU SVE)
20:31 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9E6C665F9E88721784B110AFFF0C32B26A7F76FBF9A23EDDA111C9BC9BED62B2 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1413...3643 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '78.139.73.56 (ssh-rsa key from 78.139.73.56 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (56-73-139-78.kamensktel.ru. RU SVE)
20:36 mod6 megal0g today, and yesterday. nice.
20:41 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9E6C665F9E88721784B110AFFF0C32B26A7F76FBF9A23EDDA111C9BC9BED62B2 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1409...7323 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '78.139.73.56 (ssh-rsa key from 78.139.73.56 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (56-73-139-78.kamensktel.ru. RU SVE)
20:41 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/FAE0707E17D6FC42F61F64831A1D0579383302AD965D59BC4A2C82CD7020B595 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1409...7323 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '41.191.238.241 (ssh-rsa key from 41.191.238.241 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown ZW)
20:41 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/FAE0707E17D6FC42F61F64831A1D0579383302AD965D59BC4A2C82CD7020B595 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1571...4477 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '41.191.238.241 (ssh-rsa key from 41.191.238.241 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown ZW)
20:42 mircea_popescu lol poor phuctor been bottling in the rage all day, now it's quiet can let loose
20:56 mod6 haha
~ 1 hours 1 minutes ~
21:57 asciilifeform lol zimbabwe
21:58 asciilifeform first time i ~ever~ see a .zw
21:59 asciilifeform tcp over dead monkey?
22:08 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608962 << dun fuck anything you can't lift, aha
22:08 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 23:58 mircea_popescu: drives teh wyminz nuts also, they work out till they drop, i never do, then i can you know, lift one in one arm and for some incomprehensible reason i got biceps the thickenss of their thighs. "BRO!!!" "hey, i got testosterone, it's great."
22:08 asciilifeform ( and i didn't even crib this maxim from BingoBoingo's links. it seems elementary. )
~ 15 minutes ~
22:24 asciilifeform !~later tell mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608577 << here's one crackpot method: implement 'gravitation'. analogously to physical one. i.e. an agglomeration of coin is worth ~more~ than selfsame coin in fragged form. quantifiably, in some straightforward way.
↖
22:24 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 21:56 mircea_popescu: davout the thing that SHOULD be done about it is make it work in such a way it doesn't choke in its own fumes. not that i know how to do that.
22:24 jhvh1 asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
22:25 asciilifeform think 'earth can hold an atmosphere, but asteroid cannot'. same idea.
22:25 asciilifeform frag-entropy, like other systemic problems with traditional bitcoin, is simply a result of misaligned incentives.
22:26 asciilifeform (as in the node-miner conflict, described by mircea_popescu , for instance)
22:27 asciilifeform presently fraggers do not pay the cost of fragging, it is strictly 'ecological', and externalized to future users.
22:27 asciilifeform make'em pay.
22:27 asciilifeform and likewise incentivize defrag.
22:27 mircea_popescu eh.
22:27 asciilifeform consider mircea_popescu's piece where 'most folx outside of usa will make you pay extra for not paying in benjie-usd'
22:28 asciilifeform wanna pay in pennies? pay moar.
22:28 mircea_popescu look, the problem is that as the empire grows, the army food supply goes from bushels to millions of bushels. "restrict legionnaire rations" is not a solution.
22:29 asciilifeform bitcoin as known today won't work on galactic scale, tho
22:29 asciilifeform lamportian problems with clock.
22:29 asciilifeform so we will not have this problem.
22:30 asciilifeform even earth-mars is a serious stretch, for this reason.
22:32 asciilifeform as for 'growth', i have extreme difficulty picturing the number of users of bitcoin who have by any conceivable stretch of the imagination ~actual business using it~ going up, rather than down
22:33 mircea_popescu why ? the whole point of life is to make less idiots.
22:33 mircea_popescu if tomorrow we conquer the us and put it through the grinder, that'll result in 297mn bodies, yes
22:33 asciilifeform nobody's making moar bitcoinatronic comps.
22:33 mircea_popescu but also in 3mn sane people.
22:33 mircea_popescu well... that's ~3mn more
22:33 asciilifeform there are not 3mn gold vaults.
22:33 asciilifeform today, or 100y ago
22:34 asciilifeform can mircea_popescu picture a planet3 with 3mn gold vaults (not pirate chest, either, but the kind with xray rig, defensive turrets, tank division) ?
22:34 mircea_popescu not sure these picturings are useful.
22:36 asciilifeform i see btc as 'strategic' machine, closer to tonnes-of-au, or hydrogen bomb, or icbm sub, than to something 'to buy coffee with'.
22:36 mircea_popescu that part's not in dispute.
22:36 asciilifeform then from whence 'growth' ?
22:37 asciilifeform 3mn hbomb owners when ?
22:37 mircea_popescu mmm. deglobalization necessarily means more sane people.
22:38 asciilifeform quite likely. but i dare say, they will for the most part be sane in a non-btc-directed way.
22:38 asciilifeform camel instead of mercedes.
22:38 asciilifeform (~sane~ camelsmanship.)
22:38 mircea_popescu now how would you know this ?
22:38 asciilifeform i don't, my oracular ball broke, i dropped it on cement.
22:39 asciilifeform but facts such as 'no one is making more Actual Computer nor is anyone likely to in next century' add up to this picture imho.
22:39 asciilifeform ('bitcoin' on winblowz-crapple is not bitcoin, but a masochistic and wasteful paypal)
22:40 mircea_popescu well, oft repeated alfisms aren't thereby facts.
22:40 asciilifeform want to dispute the hypothesis as stated ?
22:40 asciilifeform beyond 'not necessarily fact'
22:40 mircea_popescu hypothesis IS NOT A FACT.
22:41 asciilifeform 'bitcoin on fritz-chipped box is a paypal' is a physical fact.
22:41 asciilifeform to arbitrary precision.
22:45 asciilifeform to briefly revisit upstack, NOTHING will scale in this mythical 'i want INFINITE parts in close communion' sense. even having too many atoms in one place, 'won't scale', you get neutron star.
22:45 mircea_popescu aha.
22:45 asciilifeform there was a thread where 'there will be S souls on planet an' no moar'
22:46 asciilifeform Or Else
22:46 mircea_popescu hopefully there's such a limit naturally.
22:46 asciilifeform imho one of the appeals of bitcoin is that it in fact makes this limit explicit.
22:46 asciilifeform shows where the ceiling is.
22:47 asciilifeform instead of leaving it as something for people to discover when it is too late and they are already packed like sardines.
22:47 mircea_popescu possibly.
22:48 asciilifeform so in my eye 'stop it from choking on own exhaust fume' is quite != from 'scale FOREVAH'
22:49 asciilifeform and the former is 100% about incentives.
22:49 asciilifeform the latter -- is a bad dream.
22:50 mircea_popescu conversely, the proposition that "the sum total of people that could possibly be worth knowing is equal my dunbar number" smacks a little of panglossism
22:50 asciilifeform the number is unknowable and i will not pretend to know it or estimate it.
22:50 asciilifeform but it is FINITE.
22:50 asciilifeform because the alternative is lunacy.
22:50 mircea_popescu well...
22:51 mircea_popescu the above was also finite : 2.1 quintillion.
22:52 asciilifeform as alluded to earlier, speed of light forces you to have localized bitcoin nets. can easily make'em hierarchical.
22:52 asciilifeform so mircea_popescu an' the other immortals, could have their galactic coin.
22:52 asciilifeform it wouldn't work quite like today's bitcoin, tho.
22:53 asciilifeform and would still necessarily remain finite machine.
22:53 asciilifeform and if universe expands and you gotta grow it -- you grow it at the tendrils (leaves)
22:53 * asciilifeform brb, meat.
~ 51 minutes ~
23:45 asciilifeform !~later tell ben_vulpes your logtron drops last line..? bug?
23:45 jhvh1 asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
23:46 asciilifeform or nm, just drops 'actions'
↖
23:48 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608389 << not anymore http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-05#1534769
23:48 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 19:52 ben_vulpes: unless i misremember, the man is in the habit of at least mentioning prolonged absences.
23:48 a111 Logged on 2016-09-05 21:19 deedbot: diana_coman rated phf 2 << Only known fault so far is making public the day he leaves for vacations.
23:52 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
23:52 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 920.05, vol: 4322.84020147 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 908.295, vol: 3526.56063 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 918.37, vol: 8571.18061411 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 926.199454, vol: 5549.76380000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 920.0, vol: 1236.06537967 | Volume-weighted last average: 919.111117634
23:55 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-27#1608382 << this is the official acknowledgement of the receipt. likewise i saw it the first two times you posted it, but didn't realize that writing the nth copy of the logreader that you embarked on is a high priority republic business. seriously, what's with the attitude?
23:55 a111 Logged on 2017-01-27 19:49 ben_vulpes: phf: and on this, the third consecutive day of asking, would you kindly acknowledge receipt?
23:58 BingoBoingo http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=334
23:59 BingoBoingo ^ Lafond reminisces about youth
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