Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2017-01-24 | 2017-01-26 →
00:19 davout looks like the log's not werking
00:19 mircea_popescu which one ?
~ 16 minutes ~
00:36 BingoBoingo phf's a111 is offline per fleanode
00:47 mircea_popescu thanks goodness we have two.
00:53 ben_vulpes http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema?d=2017-1-25#b8eb36e5-0db2-4784-87b6-c9c385da5e0f << three!
00:54 ben_vulpes davout: ^^
00:54 mircea_popescu three ?
00:54 mircea_popescu nice.
00:55 ben_vulpes even has search, although a very naive postgres full-text, not the "omfg exactly like grep" asciilifeform made phf build
00:55 mircea_popescu lol
00:55 ben_vulpes and with that i'm going back to the rocket stove
01:05 davout ben_vulpes: nice, the colors burn my eyes, but nice nonetheless
~ 2 hours 49 minutes ~
03:54 Framedragger very nice log btw ben_vulpes!
03:54 Framedragger redundancy ftw
03:54 Framedragger awesome colours, too
04:02 ben_vulpes ty
04:03 ben_vulpes davout: no accounting for taste
~ 1 hours 1 minutes ~
05:05 davout most useful word of the kreol morisyen language: "pena"
05:05 davout "we don't have", "there's non"
05:05 davout *none
05:06 davout protip if one ever tries to order food there: ask what they have, don't waste your time trying to order fancy shit like "a burger", "a wrap" or any other nonsense
05:07 davout usually ends up in their fucking fried noodles
~ 1 hours 16 minutes ~
06:23 mircea_popescu now we understand how the pacific islanders invented what later came to be known as us sizes.
06:25 * mircea_popescu slathers even more beouf salad on top of lovingly homemade sourdough. you know that's real mayo, made by hand out eggs yes ? and that the womenz cook every day or else there's terrible consequences ? o look, there's half a pot of delicious soup! maybe i'll order some pie. which means - i say make pie, they make pie.
06:27 mircea_popescu if i had to order out in this shithole i'd have shot someone. did i ever tell you about the "sushi ya!" order which showed up THREE HOURS later ? idiots were VERY surprised nobody's taking their bs.
~ 17 minutes ~
06:45 trinque the hell's this guy talking about, cursive text? nicknaem, you need to go spend some time on a ranch chopping off chicken heads / slitting pig throats or something http://trilema.com/2017/how-to-deal-with-little-girls/#selection-141.1143-141.1263
06:45 mircea_popescu i dunno, i expect he collapsed from exhaustion
06:46 trinque it's pretty cool; when the grocery stores close these people will last what, 3 wks?
06:46 mircea_popescu depends on the women.
06:54 mircea_popescu anyway in other news it seems historical necessity is prevailing, trump is gonna forge an alliance with russia over everyone's objections.
06:58 mircea_popescu "October 2015, scientists at the University of New South Wales announced the successful design of a single-atom qubit 3D silicon chip architecture, making significant progress toward building a full-scale, operational Quantum Computer."
06:58 mircea_popescu what the fuck does the word soup even mean.
06:59 mircea_popescu totally, ignorance occurs when language fails.
07:00 mircea_popescu "While the last two decades have seen unambiguous experimental progress developing the science of Quantum Computation, there has never been a feasible, physical architecture developed upon which to scale-up the actual Computer itself. Not until today. Further, the success of specifically a ~silicon~ chip architecture now ensures that existing manufacturing facilities and processes can be more-easily upgraded" (emphasis his).
07:01 mircea_popescu how the fuck does this pass someone's filter ? so the dorks trying to push a scam decided the one thing that'd best improve the flavour of credibility would be spurious relation to existing practice, so now it's SILICON quantum computers, and you buy this, and even underline it of your own volition, as if it were a thing just because you wish it to be ?
07:01 mircea_popescu miracle cures! now with LABCOATS! hurr!
07:03 mircea_popescu silicone is used in electronics because of specific properties of its crystal lattice (it acts as a good substrate for dopants, resulting in nonlinear circuit elements). there's exactly nothing that recommends it over something like aerogel, or someone's stained tie, for the purpose of "quantum computing"
07:04 mircea_popescu "From left to right Dr Matthew House, Sam Hile (seated), Scientia Professor Sven Rogge and Scientia Professor Michelle Simmons of the ARC Centre of Excellence for Quantum Computation and Communication Technology at UNSW. Credit: Deb Smith, UNSW Australia" << fucking imagine that.
07:04 mircea_popescu SCIENTIA professors.
07:05 mircea_popescu "The great thing about this work, and architecture, is that it gives us an endpoint. We now know exactly what we need to do in the international race to get there." << the international race! endpoint!
07:06 mircea_popescu anyone wanna bet the only time we'll ever hear of any of those involved is when either the youthful dorks finally obtain the coveted (if meaningless) SCIENTIA title, or else when the two older farmhand looking idiots finally get their scientia-cum-laurels-and-hitler's-own-dinerfork-buttplug certificates ?
07:06 mircea_popescu "In the team's conceptual design, they have moved from a one-dimensional array of qubits, positioned along a single line, to a two-dimensional array, positioned on a plane that is far more tolerant to errors. This qubit layer is "sandwiched" in a three-dimensional architecture, between two layers of wires arranged in a grid."
07:07 mircea_popescu this comes from phys.org by the way, if anyone was about to take that mfa seriously.
07:11 mircea_popescu anyway, https://archive.is/0yq1G is the actual published item if anyone cares. tl;dr : dorks aware of which side bread is buttered created a silicone lattice with captive phosphorus on a plane, put wires on top and bottom and can now pump electrons into the so captured phosphorus. this DOES SOMETHING (tm).
07:12 mircea_popescu principally what it does is that it requires intricate production and then to be kept < 0.001 kelvin and such wonders.
07:13 mircea_popescu o right, also need a 2T field on at all times.
07:14 mircea_popescu but jay b huwieler ain't got no time to read the fucking article he's linked the (horrible) summary of, nor to understand wtf maintaining a 2T field costs, or for that matter milikelvin temperatures. fuck that, "now ensures that existing manufacturing facilities and processes can be more-easily upgraded to mass-produce quantum computational devices (QCD), in turn ostensibly reducing the time-to-market estimate for enterprise
07:14 mircea_popescu and consumer QCD offerings."
07:16 mircea_popescu imagine that, mass produced consumer items doing a magnetic flux density of 2 tesla!
07:18 mircea_popescu (the "strongest magnet in teh werld" title goes to something in the 20-30 T range ; it cost millions to build, it takes six oxen to drag around so on)
07:21 mircea_popescu as a bonus, ofcourse, hitachi pretty much owns neodymium magnets, and china pretty much owns everything to do with all the other rare earths also.
07:21 mircea_popescu !~google react program
07:21 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: React .js Program: <http://reactjsprogram.com/>; Missouri REACT Program -Required Educational Assessment and ...: <http://www.dwiprograms.com/id35.htm>; Safety Council of Greater St Louis | SATOP/ REACT Programs: <http://www.stlsafety.org/satop-react-programs>
07:21 mircea_popescu heh ok.
07:29 mircea_popescu anyway, check him out, everyone wants his porn industry to be "the reliable bridge" between "pure STEM R&D" and "free market consumerism". everyone's a tindr, getting the weird shy boys in the slimy wet bed of expectant females, dontchakno. hurr durr an' a bottle o' dross.
07:31 mircea_popescu "Currently, one mechanism the DoD has at its disposal domestically is Department of Homeland Security Presidential Directive 7 (protecting infrastructure deemed critical to National Security). If the most immediate application of QC is harvesting foreign government secrets by breaking intercepted data of its classical encryption then the QCD itself clearly falls under HSPD 7. Another option is that if QC were to be used with
07:31 mircea_popescu AI to power unauthorized access against foreign state and non-state actors, then both code and design could be interpreted as defense items. Then it could fall under Title 50 of US Code, appear on the United States Munitions List, Category XVII (Classified Articles, Technical Data, and Defense Services Not Otherwise Enumerated) and therefore be subject the Arms Export Control Act. Once under DoD control those examples of QC c
07:31 mircea_popescu ode, design, and technical datum would likely be further controlled by classification at the TOP SECRET level with some kind of Alternate Compensatory Control Measure specific to QC and QCW."
07:31 mircea_popescu bwahahaha
07:32 mircea_popescu ok, ok, i'm done befouling the logs. such insanity.
~ 51 minutes ~
08:23 mircea_popescu https://archive.is/yXziR << excelent diagnosis piece as to how the chanting hordes of the blue state managed to fuck up things wrt munitions. it's a fine complement to http://trilema.com/2013/digging-through-archives-yields-gold/#selection-113.485-113.615
08:24 mircea_popescu https://archive.is/yXziR#selection-2965.0-2977.49 is the paydirt.
~ 47 minutes ~
09:12 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D9AD9D8BC1CA4501EDDCD7082644E3F06851B3F793BC05FD08A2953D5E42275C << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1684...3763 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '85.214.86.159 (ssh-rsa key from 85.214.86.159 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (apelserv.de. DE BE)
09:12 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D9AD9D8BC1CA4501EDDCD7082644E3F06851B3F793BC05FD08A2953D5E42275C << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1602...1369 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '85.214.86.159 (ssh-rsa key from 85.214.86.159 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (apelserv.de. DE BE)
09:20 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606472 << fwiw you can get ~5T from a halbach array (unrefrigerated permanent magnet)
09:20 a111 Logged on 2017-01-25 12:13 mircea_popescu: o right, also need a 2T field on at all times.
09:20 asciilifeform it's how desktop nmr box worx.
09:20 mircea_popescu i thought the alloy perma ones do about .5
09:21 asciilifeform 5 with spherical rig.
09:21 mircea_popescu some other empire will have to do that, this one seems to cap out at plastic 200W electric driller
09:22 asciilifeform it's an off the shelf thing, go an' buy as many as you like.
09:22 mircea_popescu while china ships
09:22 asciilifeform naturally.
09:23 asciilifeform (i cannot speak for folx living in other monkeystans, but over here even shoelaces will remain available strictly while-china-ships)
09:24 mircea_popescu so how much is one of these 5T itemz ?
09:27 asciilifeform http://www.duramag.com << vendor picked blindly. go ahead and ask'em...
09:27 mircea_popescu just idle curiosity.
09:27 asciilifeform then divide by 10 and get the nonamerican price.
09:28 mircea_popescu oh, not really consumer grade ? more than 20 byux ?
09:28 asciilifeform if i had to guess the actual unit cost, i'd put it at couple of hundy.
09:29 mircea_popescu dude huy-something from the us-still-thinks-it-matters dept told me ima get it in my wristwatch!
09:29 asciilifeform who the hell needed a konsoomer nmr magnet again?!
09:29 asciilifeform is this the sr dope testing crackpottery again..?
09:29 * asciilifeform catches up on l0gz
09:30 mircea_popescu you've not been following along, there's a department of us army intelligentsia which is putting together an anally insertable quantum computer out of 2T and 0.001 kelvin
09:30 asciilifeform aaaaah it's http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-24#1606329
09:30 a111 Logged on 2017-01-24 06:09 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-24#1606239 << d00d has some rather surreal 'thousand year usg reich' wtf, e.g., https://huwieler.net/2015/10/30/quantum-cyber-warfare-the-defense-policy-we-dont-have-but-should/
09:30 asciilifeform l0l
09:31 asciilifeform kosoomer qc wtf.
09:31 asciilifeform usg really, really wants the wunderwaffen.
09:32 trinque fusion powered emdrive starship with quantum computing cargo knapsacker!1!11
09:32 asciilifeform (naturally it would be approx. as useless as alchemy would have been, had it worked to spec, and much more quickly so)
09:34 mircea_popescu aww
09:35 asciilifeform then again they have ~30 yrs of rsa traffic to wank over
09:41 mircea_popescu the notion of "quantum computing" is possibly the most idiotic thing on the table today.
09:41 mircea_popescu really, bitch, they're gonna do what you want ? because why.
09:42 asciilifeform it's a screamingly single-purpose (hypothetical) mechanism.
09:43 mircea_popescu im hard pressed to deliberately compose something more autistically idiotic.
09:44 asciilifeform dunno, some of the fusion concepts come close.
09:44 mircea_popescu literally, mana from heaven is not a more contortedly i-read-penthouse-in-physics-class
09:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i hold they are not, for the following reason : the nonsense of contained cold fusion rests on mechanical problems, ie, the plasma expands and therefore cools too fast. at least we have SOME TOOLS to do mechanical work with. like you know, a fulcrum. perhaps the plasma could be put in a fulcrum somehow ? or maybe with cogs ? dunno, should at least investigate.
09:46 mircea_popescu meanwhile the problem with quantum computing is in the fucking name. we have NO tools to do quantum work with. none. we've never heard of one existing, we can't conceive how one'd even work, if it did, which it doesn't, because it doesn't exist.
09:47 mircea_popescu we even have a multitude of strong statements of impossibility all converging towards a hearty "fuck you" located at the core of this concept
09:48 asciilifeform NO tools << e.g., spin valve, exists. there's one in your hdd.
09:48 mircea_popescu there isn't even a measuring tool ; we have nfi if any observed effect is even anything.
09:48 mircea_popescu because no, excitation levels aren't "quantum" in the sense contemplated here.
09:48 asciilifeform nobody invents alchemy when there 'are no tools.' alchemies happen when you got the tools, but not the knowing-wtf-you-are-doing
09:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform how exactly do you propose the spin valve is related to the "qubits" business ?
09:50 asciilifeform it is as related as 12th century retort was related to turning lead to gold.
09:50 mircea_popescu for the same money "we have" the process whereby glass can be rendered transparent or opaque through recrystalization
09:50 mircea_popescu what, that also ?
09:50 asciilifeform as for 'how to even know whether it works', that one's easy. qc is strictly a wunderwaffen for breaking rsa. if it breaks rsa -- it worx. otherwise, not.
09:50 asciilifeform nobody cares ~how~.
09:51 mircea_popescu i dunno how to meaningfully discuss it in terms of time, but i am willing to bet anything that the leap between $current-situation and $quantum-computing is larger not just than the alchemy-to-cyclotron gap, but actually larger than all extant science.
09:51 asciilifeform conceivably.
09:51 mircea_popescu it takes more cognition to go from pottery to desktop nrm than to go from desktop nrm to that sort of parallel computation.
09:52 asciilifeform but politically the situation has an obscenely close resemblance to alchemy
09:52 asciilifeform idiot rulers throwing $maxint at it, in hopes that somethig -- ANYTHING -- works
09:53 asciilifeform and are quite content to fund random stabs in the dark, or even outright charlatans
09:54 mircea_popescu in that sense i propose the MP Certainty, which says that it will NEVER happen. ie, at no point in the history of humanity will it be cheaper to break rsa through "quantum computing" than through electronic computing.
09:54 mircea_popescu and this includes situations 100k years in the future where qc ie quantum communication is actually used. computing, not so much, for the ~same reasons.
09:55 asciilifeform i'll point out, largely for n00bz, that we do not in fact know whether breaking rsa is hard.
09:55 mircea_popescu yes, but that didn't enter into the above.
09:56 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'quantum communication' is golden toilet nonsense, for the cost of building the link, you can perma-sync a thousand years of OTP.
09:56 asciilifeform and use ordinary copper/fiber
09:57 mircea_popescu anyway, re qc, bonus lulz for the huy-guy : so the chinese are trying to do it over satellites, because currently it's been demonstrated over much shorter distances. and the dod bright lightbulb (seriously, he is probably the smartest guy there, seeing how he has a blog) went "oh, this would allow safe key transfer, well tell you what, the army could DoS the system!"
09:57 mircea_popescu fancy that wonder, he's going to intervene in quantum field.
09:57 asciilifeform btw magnetic tape really shines in otp-land. it costs a penny a GB, and you can trivially write two tapes identically with same head (plugged into rng naturally), AND -- bonus -- can destroy it immediately when it comes out of read head.
09:57 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i'm not discussing practical utility, merely that it makes sense from a technical perspective. unlike the other thing.
09:58 mircea_popescu but - yes.
09:58 asciilifeform (there is no conceivable reason to put otp on expensive, non-disposable random-access disks, other than not having anything better)
09:58 mircea_popescu yeah
10:00 asciilifeform even the humble steel wire recorder, ancestor of magnetophone, could easily come back as a practical thing.
10:01 asciilifeform demagnetize when it emerges from read head with that selfsame halbach magnet.
10:01 mircea_popescu https://archive.is/IkPjo#selection-417.364-421.293 << direct link to the butthurt in question
10:01 phf FUCKGOATS extension board..
10:01 mircea_popescu "oh, if the chinese do qke, the us army will... have to find a way to diddle all keys in subatomic transit"
10:01 mircea_popescu mmkay.
10:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: hey, it's what they picked for 'how to deal with pgp'
10:02 mircea_popescu totally worked.
10:02 asciilifeform when monkey can only throw shit -- he throws shit.
10:03 asciilifeform what else can he throw.
10:04 mircea_popescu "Jump forward to 2030, give them the benefit, and assume that Beijing can securely distribute quantum encryption keys that cannot be broken. Can they guarantee that by 2030 their average Soldier will be any less susceptible to phishing attacks and won’t click on links embedded in unsolicited emails?"
10:04 mircea_popescu gee whiz. i dunno.
10:04 mircea_popescu maybe we should have a teat pulling sit-in over this.
10:05 asciilifeform (finishing touch on the otp subthread : the mega-virtue of steel wire vs magnetic tape, is that you can heat it to its curie point for rapid-zapping, without creating smoking, melted mess. so good emergency erase -- just put current through the spool.)
10:06 mircea_popescu actually, some proper made flash tape would also work great
10:07 mircea_popescu one spark and bam
10:07 asciilifeform thermite already exists. but there are distinct advantages to non-pyrotechnic key zapping.
10:07 asciilifeform (e.g., not setting your house on fire , in even of false alarm. and not requiring massive asbestos chest. etc)
10:08 asciilifeform *event
10:10 asciilifeform ideal eraser is probably a 'belt and suspenders' approach, where the wire is pulled through neodymium magnet (with hand crank backup) but meanwhile a pancake magnet is lowered onto the spool (for rapid, though imperfect, erase, in case there is not time to wind the entire tape) and at the same time current is run through the steel wire, if a current source is available.
10:11 asciilifeform or heat with chemical heater (as used in american army rations).
10:12 phf (just as long as the final device looks like this http://museumofmagneticsoundrecording.org/images/R2R/WebsterChicago78a.jpg )
10:12 asciilifeform you want a zap that cannot be cancelled, even by mechanically separating the 'zapper' from the payload with explosive.
10:12 deedbot http://www.dianacoman.com/2017/01/25/feelings-are-helpful-but-not-for-idiots/ << Ossasepia - Feelings are helpful, but not for idiots
10:12 asciilifeform phf: or this -- http://www.minoxdoc.com/MVC-002F.JPG
10:12 mircea_popescu asciilifeform really, the "not time" is no considerent.
10:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: probably there is no reason to ever bother with slow zaps.
10:14 mircea_popescu my thought was more along the lines of "if the difference between a second and a minute has a practical effect, there are other broken parts of the whole process that need fixing"
10:15 asciilifeform actually i can think of 1 traditional situation where it does
10:15 asciilifeform the key zap in a fighter jet
10:15 mircea_popescu hm ?
10:15 mircea_popescu you building fighter jets now ?
10:15 asciilifeform where the thing is breaking apart in the air, and potentially on quick collision course with ground
10:16 asciilifeform hey i don't build fusion reactors either.
10:16 mircea_popescu problem solved.
10:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: well no, problem not solved, the pieces on the ground can easily have residue of key, if the zapper is mechanically damaged before it can finish zapping.
10:16 asciilifeform which can indeed be a difference of 3 vs 1 sec.
10:17 mircea_popescu you're not building fighters therefore the "other broken parts of the whole process" have been identified and disposed of.
10:17 phf asciilifeform grew up on "Seventeen Moments of Spring", plans his life accordingly
10:17 asciilifeform i don't build jets. but i do live deep behind enemy lines, and will have -- if lucky -- about 5 seconds of time to pull the pin when the door breaks down.
10:18 asciilifeform but certainly no moar than 5.
10:18 mircea_popescu so install some cameras.
10:18 asciilifeform everybody has cameras.
10:18 mircea_popescu and you're wrong, a claymore going off in response to a hammering of the door will postpone the raid by HOURS
10:19 asciilifeform raid yes -- demolition no.
10:19 mircea_popescu ~nothing easier in the world than making a team of us experts shit their pants and spend the rest of the day loitering waiting for "the conversation" to happen.
10:19 asciilifeform (btw usg luuuuvvvs self-immolators, they cut down on paperwork)
10:20 mircea_popescu specificity of diddling again applies. just as long as your response is not categorically identifiable, the empire is stuck in the one place it hates.
10:20 trinque whatever, they love to sit there and piss about importantly on the phone with 300 people surrounding
10:20 mircea_popescu i'm kinda surprised nobody does the claymore security door thing. "if you shock this door... nice knowing you."
10:30 asciilifeform i suspect that all of the folx who did this , are resting in peace/pieces
10:30 asciilifeform (ever have car alarm? it never went off from the wind?)
10:31 mircea_popescu there's a huge space there to pick a threshold.
10:32 phf hmm, i can't recall anyone doing it in the 90s. i think this is a uniquely american problem though, where you can't trust frame to hold the door in place. traditional solution is to simply put the door on welded frame inside a concrete hole, so you will need something better than a claymore to dislodge it
10:34 mircea_popescu phf nah, the idea is you get exactly like current, "security door" except the half inch steel sheet is on the inside, then 3 claymores stacked, then a thin al profile on the outside facing. have a shock detector modeled on 90% of the kinetic delivery of the standard issue us invasion corps battering ram.
10:34 mircea_popescu an earthquake won't do it (too slow).
10:41 phf "front toward enemy"
10:52 asciilifeform phf: the reason why american doors are what they are, is that the house is made of ~cardboard
10:52 asciilifeform does it matter what kind of door, on a paper house /
10:52 asciilifeform ?
10:52 asciilifeform for bonus penetrability, typical american dwelling also has ~massive~ glass door (often, double-width) in the rear.
10:53 asciilifeform why these are built, i cannot say. i suppose americans believe that theft is part of the great circle of life, and burglars are also people, and Need to Eat, etc.
10:54 trinque nah, it's much closer to "I just want to" and govt is responsible for preventing it
10:54 asciilifeform why would anybody want this.
10:56 trinque why indeed. they're obedient creatures and this they're told is of the category of "fancy shit you can bolt to the side of" your house
10:56 asciilifeform i always suspected that the glass doors are a kind of 'fuse'
10:57 asciilifeform cheaper to replace a glass than to drywall a new wall.
10:57 asciilifeform so it is indeed 'designated burglar entrance'
10:57 asciilifeform iirc we had a thread here about ritual concessions to thieves, folx placing car keys where thief will find'em, etc
11:01 asciilifeform unrelatedly: in re the metal lisp thread: http://picolisp.com/wiki/?PilOS << i could not get this to boot. but it is ~exactly what i had in mind (i'd much prefer that it be with a scheme, rather than a crackpot dynamically-scoped 1970s lisp, but the idea is illustrative)
11:04 asciilifeform i have 3 versions of qemu here, all of'em end up with 'read error 9'.
11:04 asciilifeform this is ~universal with crackpot x86 os btw.
11:04 asciilifeform the hardware is so monumentally idiot that even ~emulator~ behaviour is nonstandardized, even between versions of same emulator.
11:10 asciilifeform in other lulz, 'US urged Britain to keep Trident blunder secret. Obama administration ‘feared missile failure put American nuclear deterrent at risk’.'
11:11 mircea_popescu heh
11:11 mircea_popescu because why. not like it's not in the logs that they dun werk.
11:11 asciilifeform 'A failure in the data communications system of the US-made weapon system has been blamed. Lockheed Martin, based in Maryland, builds and maintains the missiles.'
11:12 mircea_popescu o wait lm is based in maryland ?
11:12 mircea_popescu i was thinking turkmenistan
11:13 asciilifeform monkeystan
11:13 mircea_popescu i deemed myselg well informed by the nonfakenews outlets.
~ 27 minutes ~
11:41 asciilifeform further lulz re retardation of x86 -- http://forum.osdev.org/viewtopic.php?t=21720
11:41 asciilifeform ( and bonus gcc idiocy )
~ 37 minutes ~
12:19 asciilifeform in other lulz, https://www.cs.york.ac.uk/fp/DrIFT/original/History.html >> 'You asked whether naming your software `Haskell Derive' would be satisfactory, and you explained your reasoning for wishing to adopt that name. We believe that we understand your reasoning, but the critical point is that including `Derive' as part of your software's name in *any* manner is not permissible. That fact is not
12:19 asciilifeform changed by adding other words to `Derive', nor by your belief that the word `derive' is an accurate description, using the correct terminology, of the purpose of the software. In pursuit of your academic research project, please rename your software to avoid using `Derive' or any other word that might cause a reasonable likelihood of confusion with `Derive''
12:19 mircea_popescu thisis actually not how it works.
12:19 mircea_popescu schmucks don't own the ~word~ "derive".
12:19 asciilifeform microshit's 'nt' case emboldened derps everywhere
12:20 mircea_popescu ie, yes the case is "reasonable likelihood of confusion", but no this does not mean 'don't use the word'.
12:20 asciilifeform the lulzy bit is that soft-warehouse (makers of subj, and one-time mega-monopoly, they made the only good lisp for msdos pc) was bought by ti and put in a hole, and cement poured.
12:21 mircea_popescu this is ~why fcc-like authorities exist. to forbid the usg to buy and derp like this.
12:21 asciilifeform waiwat, fcc?!
12:21 asciilifeform the usg ministry of radio ?
12:22 mircea_popescu ftc-like*
12:22 asciilifeform usg ministry of chumpatronics ?
12:22 mircea_popescu whatever the thing which goes "your money has no value here"
12:22 mircea_popescu ie if i sold some btc to buy lm and relocate it to turkmenistan
~ 25 minutes ~
12:48 asciilifeform in other lulz, http://archive.is/j41JR >> 'A group of at least seven protesters, apparently with Greenpeace, are scaling a crane in downtown Washington DC in protest at US President Donald Trump. ... the protesters unfurled a 35ft by 75ft banner reading “Resist,” 270ft above the ground. '
12:49 mircea_popescu i feel this will make a lot of difference.
12:49 mircea_popescu who knows, maybe they even get laid.
12:49 asciilifeform about same diff as the famous banana
12:49 asciilifeform ( http://btcbase.org/log/2014-09-17#831998 )
12:49 a111 Logged on 2014-09-17 02:47 asciilifeform: http://www.tpnn.com/2014/08/07/video-russian-laser-show-features-obama-sucking-on-a-banana
12:52 phf that's the most "direct action" any greenpiece activist participated in the past 30 years
12:54 asciilifeform eh aren't these the folx who sink ships when nobody's looking
12:54 mircea_popescu in the 80s
12:54 asciilifeform i suppose ~everything~ went to shit while i slept in the cave. even this.
12:54 phf ^
12:55 * mircea_popescu recalls a time in the 90s... concidentally at the time the world was last great i was too young to care much about women.
12:55 phf there's this anti-japanese-whaling direct action guy, who got kicked out of greenpiece in the early 2000s for too much direct actioning
12:56 mircea_popescu refused to use a condom!
12:56 phf http://www.seashepherd.org/news-and-commentary/commentary/archive/the-truth-about-greenpeace-and-whaling.html
12:57 asciilifeform unrelatedly, if phf or anybody else has a copy of mulisp-90, plz to post.
12:58 asciilifeform 90 specifically.
12:58 asciilifeform (afaik it vanished entirely from www.)
13:03 phf meanwhile at asciilifeform's secret lair http://68.media.tumblr.com/6e282fce49d57f4935f1f7758376fe1b/tumblr_nr4e9kVr2f1tcuhpfo1_500.jpg
13:04 asciilifeform lol engelbart's toiletron
13:05 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
13:06 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 891.97, vol: 7048.19700071 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 893.002, vol: 4579.52776 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 892.97, vol: 13180.92448259 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 901.152053, vol: 12709.73980000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 896.959, vol: 2646.31761359 | Volume-weighted last average: 895.650120993
13:07 trinque d'oh, I found 86
13:07 trinque http://www.din.uem.br/ia/ferramen/monoparadigmas/lisp/implementacao/mulisp/
13:07 asciilifeform trinque: common as dirt
13:21 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0B7BC41BDD6707815C42C207285C3FF4CE0B4FEB78CA44079BD210B7B47D996E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1776...1169 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '80.247.232.5 (ssh-rsa key from 80.247.232.5 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (vserver26.nfrance.com. FR 31 N)
13:21 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0B7BC41BDD6707815C42C207285C3FF4CE0B4FEB78CA44079BD210B7B47D996E << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1783...5193 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '80.247.232.5 (ssh-rsa key from 80.247.232.5 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (vserver26.nfrance.com. FR 31 N)
13:30 ben_vulpes http://pastebin.com/FFSQUML9 << the fiat noose tightens
13:30 ben_vulpes everything must be free except speech
13:31 Framedragger blood, needles, and vampirism
13:37 phf "I appologize [...] I believe we did what we had to do" that's not how appologies work.
13:38 mircea_popescu heh
13:39 mircea_popescu it does contain THE WORD dunnit ?
13:42 phf we have evoked the name of saint apologia, therefore we are above reproach
13:43 mircea_popescu too bad she only blesses people wearing the blessed crocs.
13:55 asciilifeform in other noose, asciilifeform's main comp has finally released magic smoke.
13:55 asciilifeform turns out even 'tyan' mobo dun last 4evah.
13:57 asciilifeform 11 yrs.
~ 1 hours ~
14:58 mats >Trump orders construction of border wall, moves to increase deportations
15:00 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: http://trilema.com/2009/exceptionalismul-feminin/ << translation candidate?
15:00 mircea_popescu hanbot just did that one
15:01 ben_vulpes ah fuq
15:01 asciilifeform source and keep hardware spares, folx. even for 'eternal' iron. don't wait until problem is acute.
15:02 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: also "perform backups and regularly restore from them"
15:02 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: goes without saying
15:03 asciilifeform but backup is of very limited use when you've nothing to compute on.
15:03 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: brain scans are phrenology, not astrology
15:05 mircea_popescu or chiromancy w/e you call i
15:05 mircea_popescu t
15:09 ben_vulpes ah there's the hanbot piece in muhfeeds.
15:09 ben_vulpes okay so i didn't not do my homework yet.
15:11 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: it is interesting, at one point it was possible to source pre-2012 opteron mb quite cheaply, now they are ~gone
15:11 asciilifeform ('socket f' to be specific)
~ 42 minutes ~
15:54 asciilifeform 'Yes, it was mainly for FetLife's and my protection, and we had to act swiftly. One could easily argue that we didn't move swift enough and that I shouldn't even make this post because something in it might incriminate FetLife or me.' << lel
15:54 ben_vulpes FEAR
15:54 asciilifeform wasn't the whole point of the thing 'like arsebook but UNCENSORED!11!!!!!!232323' ??
15:54 ben_vulpes YOUR PERVERSE THOUGHTS MARK YOU FOR THE GULAG
15:55 ben_vulpes inb4 Framedragger builds a bitcoin kinknet
15:55 asciilifeform wtf is the point of making umpteenth centralized arsebook.
15:56 ben_vulpes ask him
15:56 asciilifeform 'Historically we've sided more with individual members needs, but what we've learned from recent events is that we need to start putting more weight on the safety of the community, FetLife, and the team behind FetLife - including my personal safety.' << most cowards have at least the virtue of stfu-ing
15:56 asciilifeform not, apparently, this one.
15:59 asciilifeform 'Let's say we move our servers to the newly formed country of Fetopia. The US, UK, Australia, Germany, etc. can still make it difficult for people within their countries' borders to access FetLife. I don't think we would do the community a favor by making FetLife harder to access.'
15:59 asciilifeform ahaha this is gold
15:59 asciilifeform 'Why haven't you embraced Bitcoin to get away from the restrictions of the banks / credit card companies? - We used to accept bitcoins through Coinbase. They dropped us a year ago because we are a kinky site. No joke.'
16:02 deedbot http://cascadianhacker.com/perceived-vs-actual-barriers-to-homeownership-for-young-adults << CH - Perceived vs. actual barriers to homeownership for young adults
16:13 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: http://cascadianhacker.com/perceived-vs-actual-barriers-to-homeownership-for-young-adults/comment-page-1#comment-171
16:23 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: ack
16:34 deedbot http://cascadianhacker.com/hey-kid-want-to-buy-some-verboten-hate-speech << CH - "Hey kid, want to buy some VERBOTEN HATE SPEECH?"
16:44 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-24#1606341 << optimization strategy is when you have a slow algorithm somewhere in your architecture (you put it there because it was a reasonable tradeoff at the point), but you can replace it with a faster algorithm without leaving too much damage on the architecture (alf calls it "scaring")
16:44 a111 Logged on 2017-01-24 06:43 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-24#1606322 << you'll have to one day sit down and explain to me exactly what you mean by "optimization strategy".
16:46 ben_vulpes ugh mircea_popescu how do i find the qualia thread in your blog
16:47 phf so if you have a system that you implemented fast, but it's slow, but you know how to now slowly make it fast, you have a strategy. if you're chasing corner cases, running a profiler and get mostly flat distribution, writing in special cases, etc. you don't have one
16:51 trinque ben_vulpes: http://trilema.com/2017/my-ai-problems-a-humble-confession/#comment-121007
~ 25 minutes ~
17:17 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606725 >> scarring ?
17:17 a111 Logged on 2017-01-25 21:44 phf: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-24#1606341 << optimization strategy is when you have a slow algorithm somewhere in your architecture (you put it there because it was a reasonable tradeoff at the point), but you can replace it with a faster algorithm without leaving too much damage on the architecture (alf calls it "scaring")
17:18 ben_vulpes trinque: ty
17:21 ben_vulpes oh fucking lol
17:22 ben_vulpes in which it is shown that xcode's "find occurences of string in project" ACTUALLY FUCKING DOES NOT
17:22 ben_vulpes WHAT i ask you IS THE POINT of an ultra-heavy IDE that a) cannot tell me where the protocol breakage is during a refactor much less what to do about it b) has a project search SO MISERABLY BAD that a man must revert to grep in order to find ANYTHING
17:30 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: http://cascadianhacker.com/perceived-vs-actual-barriers-to-homeownership-for-young-adults/comment-page-1#comment-174
17:32 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i find broken ~search~ particularly infuriating, because it is so easy to make a working (i.e. grep-compatible) one
17:32 asciilifeform esp. if you are already lifting a standard unix userland
17:32 asciilifeform and grep is ~there~
17:32 asciilifeform broken searches are nearly always a result of some pathetic piece of shit trying to 'be clever'.
17:33 asciilifeform (and the occasional literate d00d, e.g., phf, naively making use of a library written by 'clever' peopel)
17:33 asciilifeform *people
17:33 ben_vulpes i hear ya
17:34 ben_vulpes i ain't selling "pg fts" as any sort of solution; 'tis largely an experiment in pg search and data modeling.
17:34 asciilifeform what's pgfts?
17:34 ben_vulpes postgres full text search; "some pathetic piece of shit trying to be clever"
17:34 asciilifeform ah
17:35 asciilifeform sounds pretty spartan
17:35 asciilifeform (and what exactly other choices do you have if all of your thing lives in pg)
17:35 ben_vulpes granted, it serves a different problem, "searching documents" with naive user input.
17:35 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: posix regexes work, i'll see what the performance implications are of using those instead.
17:36 ben_vulpes also phf may i please have the log backups?
17:38 * asciilifeform bbl -- meat
~ 46 minutes ~
18:24 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: how about http://trilema.com/2009/pe-scurt-despre-analiza-tranzactionala/
~ 18 minutes ~
18:42 ben_vulpes in other gabriel_laddel comments that have babe army swooning: https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/
~ 48 minutes ~
19:31 ben_vulpes for BingoBoingo http://i.imgur.com/NuNbW1X.gifv
~ 23 minutes ~
19:55 * mircea_popescu welcomes this renewed interest in early trilemaz!
20:05 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes first mentioned (ever! in history!) here : http://trilema.com/2017/my-ai-problems-a-humble-confession/#comment-121007 then referenced in http://trilema.com/2017/dupa-dealuri/#comment-121112 and http://trilema.com/2017/how-to-deal-with-little-girls/#comment-121192
20:06 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606709 << is that vintage idiocy or novel ?
20:06 a111 Logged on 2017-01-25 20:54 asciilifeform: 'Yes, it was mainly for FetLife's and my protection, and we had to act swiftly. One could easily argue that we didn't move swift enough and that I shouldn't even make this post because something in it might incriminate FetLife or me.' << lel
20:06 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606714 << was briefly discussed at the time ; if you recall the spec wasn't for centralization.
20:06 a111 Logged on 2017-01-25 20:55 asciilifeform: wtf is the point of making umpteenth centralized arsebook.
20:08 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606720 << this pretty much sums up the idiocy of those people.
20:08 a111 Logged on 2017-01-25 20:59 asciilifeform: 'Why haven't you embraced Bitcoin to get away from the restrictions of the banks / credit card companies? - We used to accept bitcoins through Coinbase. They dropped us a year ago because we are a kinky site. No joke.'
20:09 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606728 << i don't readily perceive the difference between these two cases ; outside of "if girls are thirsty they're still stupid whereas if i need to shit i know where the wc is."
20:09 a111 Logged on 2017-01-25 21:47 phf: so if you have a system that you implemented fast, but it's slow, but you know how to now slowly make it fast, you have a strategy. if you're chasing corner cases, running a profiler and get mostly flat distribution, writing in special cases, etc. you don't have one
20:12 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606735 << i don't think anyone ever held that xcode is either functional or useful. apple likes it because it's tm and that's about it.
20:12 a111 Logged on 2017-01-25 22:22 ben_vulpes: WHAT i ask you IS THE POINT of an ultra-heavy IDE that a) cannot tell me where the protocol breakage is during a refactor much less what to do about it b) has a project search SO MISERABLY BAD that a man must revert to grep in order to find ANYTHING
20:13 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606740 << broken everything is always this. never anything else. not even possible to be anything else.
20:13 a111 Logged on 2017-01-25 22:32 asciilifeform: broken searches are nearly always a result of some pathetic piece of shit trying to 'be clever'.
20:14 mircea_popescu broken shit is what you get when you don't let the "overly agresive Alphas" beat shithead manning into a bloody pulp.
20:26 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes what's the "everything should be free" thing ?
20:31 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-26#1606759 << new. from http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606683
20:31 a111 Logged on 2017-01-26 01:06 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606709 << is that vintage idiocy or novel ?
20:31 a111 Logged on 2017-01-25 18:30 ben_vulpes: http://pastebin.com/FFSQUML9 << the fiat noose tightens
20:31 mircea_popescu hm
20:32 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-25#1606755 is first-class lulfodder btw.
20:32 a111 Logged on 2017-01-25 23:42 ben_vulpes: in other gabriel_laddel comments that have babe army swooning: https://status451.com/2017/01/20/days-of-rage/
20:32 mircea_popescu heh. they should have thought of THAT before being annoying.
20:32 * mircea_popescu clearly recalls that when i showed somethingawful.com the cat they immediately stfu and ran away.
20:33 asciilifeform waiwat, who thought of what
20:33 mircea_popescu nothing easier than to turn off cc processing for one of these "website businesses"
20:33 asciilifeform aaah them
20:33 mircea_popescu takes me all of half an hour to organize a 10% chargeback pile, which is the immediate end, for isntance.
20:34 mircea_popescu and this isn't just re derpy "democratic" forum or herpy "free" sexploitatation venue. this applies to the fucking guardian, or to wikipedia.
20:34 mircea_popescu the ONLY reason they're still here is that i've not decided to end them.
20:35 asciilifeform not worth bullet, eh
20:36 mircea_popescu not even that. i don't perceive they're actually hurting. yes they're fucking up the lives of idiots. so ?
20:37 thestringpuller http://reason.com/blog/2017/01/25/venezuelan-authorities-bitcoin-crypto << didn't realize VZ was fascists? Secret police starting to round up Bitcoin miners eh?
20:37 asciilifeform iirc there was a spiffy mircea_popescu article about the costs of letting 'harmless' idiots live (makes idiocy seem acceptable)
20:37 asciilifeform but i can't recall where.
20:38 mircea_popescu asciilifeform consider ben_vulpes 's latest article. the choice is very clearly available ; the sort of mind who nevertheless opts for idiocy truly deserves it.
20:39 asciilifeform theoretically there is a borderland of folx who straddle the edge of sanity
20:39 mircea_popescu i'm not about to forcibly get people to stop smoking.
20:39 asciilifeform they ask 'can i get away with being idiot'
20:39 mircea_popescu yes i'm aware that forcibly works and their own heads don't. so ?
20:41 asciilifeform 'Morales had no rope. And no fingers. He had a ten-foot length of bandage. And brass balls. Somehow, this dude with no fingers lowers himself from the window on the bandage. It snaps. Morales falls 20 feet onto an air conditioner, then another 20 feet to the ground. Injured, but alive. The Family and FALN whisk him away.' << first-class.
20:42 mod6 So, my V changes that implement a proper wot-variant V are looking pretty decent. however, I thought up an edge case that I'd like to discuss a bit more -- and I know we've been over this a bunch, and even recently.
20:44 asciilifeform mod6: bring it on
20:44 mod6 Say that we have a flow, like trb, with all sorts of vpatches that stem from one single root. where that root is designated as a 'root' because all of its inputs are 'false'. what should happen with a vpatch that, for instance, just adds a file to the source and has no antecedents, nor decendants.
20:45 asciilifeform mod6: like shiva genesis ?
20:45 asciilifeform it's a second root and mircea_popescu really, really hates'em.
20:45 mod6 so this one single vpatch has a 'false' input, and a non-zero sha512 output.
20:45 asciilifeform but they work fine in my vtron.
20:45 asciilifeform you just see two roots.
20:45 mod6 ok, i'd have to look at shiva genesis again here. but yeah, multiple roots.
20:45 asciilifeform each with entirely own existence .
20:45 asciilifeform they don't screw the thing up in any way.
20:46 mircea_popescu actually that status451 article is not half bad.
20:47 mircea_popescu mod6 such a "patch" may not exist.
20:47 mod6 so in the case of my previous implementation (V99995), these island-roots would simply endup at the end of the flow, as a leaf. as they are both a root and a leaf at the same time.
20:47 mircea_popescu either it builds in its own independent tree, or else it declares an antecedent in the trb tree.
20:47 asciilifeform mod6: wtf means 'root and leaf at the same time'
20:48 mircea_popescu rule is very simple : all items with false inputs create a project. whole, independent.
20:48 asciilifeform these are definitionally separate things
20:48 mod6 ok, so that's basically what I was wondering. to be designated a proper 'root', do we also add the criteria of "must have an actual proper decendant"
20:48 mircea_popescu mod6 nope.
20:49 asciilifeform mod6: consider the time when genesis alone existed.
20:49 asciilifeform it was a perfectly valid vtree.
20:49 asciilifeform the way, e.g., FUCKGOATS-genesis, is today.
20:49 mircea_popescu yeah.
20:49 mod6 ok i guess that would be bad in the sense that "i'm just staring this project, my genesis should be a root even though nothing descends it yet..."
20:49 mod6 asciilifeform: yah, got it.
20:50 mod6 <+asciilifeform> mod6: wtf means 'root and leaf at the same time' << in the old code, it is a root, because it has no antecedents, and it is a leaf because it also has no descendants.
20:50 asciilifeform aah
20:50 mircea_popescu the latter dun exactly make it a leaf tho
20:51 asciilifeform at any rate 'solitary node' is a perfectly valid state for a vtree.
20:51 mircea_popescu the criteria for root/leaf are the same : anything false, root. anything non-false, leaf.
20:51 asciilifeform i can easily picture, e.g., FUCKGOATS, staying in that shape for the rest of eternity.
20:51 mircea_popescu yeah.
20:52 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> either it builds in its own independent tree, or else it declares an antecedent in the trb tree. << so in the latter part here, should my 'foobar.vpatch' that just adds one file without any antecedents or descendants actually inherit an antecedent, in this case 'genesis.vpatch' ? just trying to understand ...
20:52 mircea_popescu sure.
20:53 mircea_popescu all patches to trb tree must refer to an antecedent in the trb tree. no exceptions. if "nothing comes to mind", genesis is a fine default.
20:53 asciilifeform btw mircea_popescu's criticism of shiva-genesis was 100% deserved, it ~does in fact~ logically depend on trb, but did not indicate said dependence vtronically
20:53 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this is one of those cases of "sit on side of sanity ask what can get away with".
20:53 mircea_popescu just because it works(tm) ie could be got away with is no good reason to actually try.
20:54 mod6 so say we go with that... that 'foobar.vpatch' just inherits an antecedent 'genesis.vpatch'; how does one distinguish between 'foobar.vpatch' as a root and 'genesis.vpatch' as a root without additional criteria?
20:54 asciilifeform setting up a wholly artificial dependence also rubbed me wrong
20:54 asciilifeform hence the choice
20:54 mircea_popescu but an important point here i must stress is the COGNITIVE LOAD of a v tree. these aren't mechanical "oh, it changed x file so it goes with x". you think, as the author, and exactly in the manner of scoring wot members : what should this item be anchored on ?
20:55 mod6 both of these have all inputs as 'false' -- hard for the code to tell which should be witch at face value without something "and it has at least one descendant"
20:55 mircea_popescu v links add value ; which couldn't have been made by "an ai"
20:55 mircea_popescu asciilifeform an item can exist in two copies : as its independent tree AND ALSO as a patch imported in a project.
20:55 mircea_popescu trb-shiva should be trb-shiva ; if shiva-genesis also exists nothing is hurt thereby.
20:56 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: recall, i actually had a wholly separate shiva-bridge
20:56 mircea_popescu yea
20:56 asciilifeform (the reason for which, was to demonstrate that shiva was tinyscheme largely as-found-in-the-forest)
21:02 mod6 the main reason that I bring this up; 'foobar.vpatch' is being dumped out of the flow and causing problems since i've implemented the axiom of 'a vpatch can only be in the flow if all of its antecedents are present.' which causes a problem in this case as it gets chucked out as an orphan.
21:02 mircea_popescu should be rebased.
21:03 asciilifeform mod6: if your vtron throws out a valid, signed-by-wot patch that has 0 antecedents, it is broken
21:03 asciilifeform ( mircea_popescu's dictum of 'have 1 root' cannot be enforced mechanically, vtron has no business deciding arbitrarily which root is 'the' root)
21:03 mircea_popescu aha.
21:04 mircea_popescu it should respond with "broken tree, fix seals" error and not press.
21:04 mod6 ok. what should the vtron do with these extra roots? place them at the end of the flow as leafs?
21:04 asciilifeform cultivating a project with multiple roots may be bad form, but vtron ~must~ display properly
21:04 asciilifeform mod6: should do 100% what mine did.
21:04 mircea_popescu no, it should just fail the press.
21:04 asciilifeform display both flows correctly, press if asked.
21:05 asciilifeform (and follow the correct sequence to the respective root if pressing)
21:05 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i disagree that multiple-roots should be a mechanical eggog.
21:05 mircea_popescu why ?
21:05 asciilifeform it is a logically valid, if stylistically undesirable, state
21:05 mircea_popescu it is not logically valid.
21:06 mircea_popescu the concept of "a press" towards more than one root is actually devoid of content.
21:06 asciilifeform but you can never do this
21:06 mircea_popescu besides the point.
21:06 asciilifeform you pick a node to press to.
21:06 mircea_popescu yes.
21:06 asciilifeform it cannot be part of two disconnected flows.
21:06 asciilifeform this is impossible to arrange even deliberately.
21:06 mircea_popescu more than one root === disconnected flows.
21:06 mircea_popescu this is what teh words mean.
21:07 asciilifeform yes but all points on the graph are unambiguously pressable to.
21:07 mircea_popescu nevertheless.
21:07 asciilifeform this is what i meant by 'logically valid.' it isn't a '1 == 2'
21:07 asciilifeform it's euclid's 5th.
21:07 mircea_popescu it is, yes.
21:07 mircea_popescu i mean, it is a 1=2.
21:08 asciilifeform i get that mircea_popescu really, ~really~ hates multirooted vtrees. this doesn't make'em '1==2'
21:08 asciilifeform they don't crash the algo.
21:08 asciilifeform not when it is written correctly (i.e. as i did)
21:08 asciilifeform they don't lead to unexpected 'wtf'
21:08 asciilifeform thing -- behaves.
21:08 mircea_popescu well, i get it that you think you did, except you didn't, because, note this, BECAUSE it didn't crash your algo.
21:09 mircea_popescu vtron that presses a multi-root tree is, by that very fact, a broken implementation.
21:09 asciilifeform i get it, mircea_popescu really hates blue colour, and thinks that merc engine should light eggog light an' stop immediately if it detects blue paint on chassis
21:09 asciilifeform that dun make blue paint an eggog.
21:09 mircea_popescu im not going to go into debugging your metaphors.
21:09 asciilifeform you NEVER press 'a multiroot tree.' you press ~one node~, which has ~one root~
21:10 asciilifeform every node in a tree with 1,001 roots, flows back to ~one~ particular root.
21:10 mircea_popescu sigh. fine.
21:10 asciilifeform and i entirely agree with mircea_popescu that working with such a thing is terrifyingly poor discipline.
21:10 mircea_popescu vtron that presses a tree containing more than one genesis is, by that very fact, a broken implementation.
21:11 asciilifeform how many other stylistic eggogs should v enforce ? tabs-v-spaces?
21:11 mircea_popescu this is not a matter of "style", it is a matter of identity.
21:11 mircea_popescu the project is named after its tree's genesis, and conceptually exists as and only as descendancy from that genesis.
21:12 mircea_popescu speshul snowflakes need not apply ; they may be own trees, or leaves in extant trees, or not at all.
21:12 asciilifeform in the case of tinyscheme, i dealt with (or at least thought i was dealing with) the case where two separate bloodlines merge.
21:13 asciilifeform imho this is a distinct item and oughta remain indicable.
21:13 mircea_popescu there is no merge in that sense.
21:13 asciilifeform they fuck and have 1 child.
21:13 mircea_popescu wife changes her name, becomes daughter of her husband's father.
21:13 mircea_popescu like it or not, nobody asks her.
21:13 asciilifeform but this was not wife, but concubine
21:14 asciilifeform i specifically asked to memorialize the fact that i did not write tinyscheme.
21:14 mircea_popescu no concubines allowed.
21:14 mircea_popescu i don't care.
21:14 asciilifeform this was, recall, before mircea_popescu's gordian knot cut of 'use multiple keys'
21:14 mircea_popescu not sure it wasn't ; pretty sure that was always there, but yes i guess before the expliciting
21:14 mircea_popescu anyway, not like patches can't be rebased into conformancy.
21:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu also tends to ignore the very real risk of 'no concubines, no children'
21:15 mircea_popescu children are not a goal.
21:15 mircea_popescu corectness, and corectness only, is the goal. if it produces no children so be it.
21:15 asciilifeform this is a consistend position.
21:15 asciilifeform *consistent
21:15 mircea_popescu it is also the only safe one.
21:20 asciilifeform to elaborate on the 'no children' bit, extreme strictness does not leave us with 'either correct software! XOR stone knives and bearskins and NO software!' but rather with 'massive pile of old broken software'
21:20 mircea_popescu this is, after all, why we made v in the first place.
21:21 asciilifeform aha. and one of the old plagues i aimed to cure, with v, was the 'fog of war' surrounding authorship.
21:21 asciilifeform where 'everything' is written by 'everyone and no one'
21:21 asciilifeform and so i remain skeptical of vtronic practices that obscure authorship, for whatever otherwise excellent reasons.
21:21 mircea_popescu but understand that the only correct solution is to steal the natives babies and give them roman/spanish names.
21:21 mircea_popescu there is no such "oh, we'll represent local-batshit in our system"
21:21 asciilifeform you give'em spanish names but they live in slave quarters.
21:22 mircea_popescu historically this isn't so accurate, everyone lived in the ~same shit.
21:22 asciilifeform eh even modern mexico, the actual-people-people are white (as white as spain, at least)
21:23 asciilifeform slave-fucking was a sometimes-thing there, evidently.
21:23 mircea_popescu to put it in more direct terms : remove fog of war around authorship yes, but this can ONLY be done through denying the franchise to anyone outside of wot. only wot people can be authors of things, so in this sense anything, tinyscheme included, until and unless its meatspace authors fess up, is literally "found in forest" and will have to bear an actual man's name
21:24 mircea_popescu there's no way to meaningfully assert "this leaf was made by $somenonpeople".
21:24 mircea_popescu i caqn readily see why this irritates your otherwise very well developed and entirely respectable respect for knowledge.
21:25 mircea_popescu nevertheless, i am saying, flatly, that this isn't a knowledge. as per lieberman.
21:25 asciilifeform if there is literally no way to memorialize the fact that i took $item off a dead nazi, or dug up from sunken atlantis, rather than wrote it personally -- said item will have to be done without. (unless someone else in your wot does the imho monumentally idiotic act of 'adopting it as own child')
21:25 asciilifeform imho for no c program is this a safe (in terms of preserving one's honour) act.
21:26 asciilifeform satoshi's liquishit is no child of mine.
21:26 asciilifeform nor tinyscheme, etc.
21:26 asciilifeform if i can't codify 'за что купил за то продал' -- we have problem.
21:28 asciilifeform ( as per http://deedbot.org/deed-378272-1.txt )
21:29 asciilifeform note that we did ~same thing for trb genesis.
21:30 mircea_popescu the concept of identity in the fiat world has come under scrutiny every single time.
21:30 mircea_popescu see the discussion of boeck's alleged "contributions" etc.
21:30 mircea_popescu there isn't two different someones out there in a reliable sense.
21:31 asciilifeform shiva(tinyscheme) is not a wife, it is a cow. it is quite possible to have a house without a cow. if you do have a cow, it lives in separate structure, and nobody will need to be reminded that it is not a wife.
21:31 asciilifeform there must remain the option of keeping cow.
21:31 mod6 i think that cow aught to be rebased perhaps
21:31 asciilifeform mod6: rebased how
21:31 mod6 it either goes in the tree or it does not exist.
21:32 asciilifeform i ain't equating, e.g., tinyscheme, to works from my own pen.
21:32 asciilifeform ain't happening.
21:33 asciilifeform and, again, 'no cow -- no milk.' the alternative to shiva is not 'clean code from reliable people in wot' but the old satoshi abortion in continued use.
21:33 mircea_popescu this wedge will not prevail. i'll do without any milk, forever.
21:34 mircea_popescu the odds of something being imported to break the structure because hey, convenience are nil.
21:34 asciilifeform except mircea_popescu is not doing without milk, he (and i, and the lot of us) is drinking the pus from syphilitic whore.
21:34 mircea_popescu there is no such benefit as "milk" here.
21:34 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that wedge will also not prevail.
21:34 asciilifeform why does trb-genesis get special treatment in mircea_popescu's scheme ?
21:34 mircea_popescu special, how ?
21:35 asciilifeform in the sense that it is of heathen birth, but nevertheless memorialized as an origin and not subsumed
21:35 asciilifeform and mircea_popescu would not hold any of the signers answerable for its defects
21:35 mircea_popescu mod6 i expect the correct solution going forward is : a) for someone (maybe trbf ?) to make a Wildman McFucksticks key which b) will be used to sign a compliant rebase of tinyscheme / anything else anyone finds in the woods and wants to sign.
21:36 mircea_popescu it can even be a collective key, perhaps not in the sense of actually sharing the privkey, but perhaps trbf/holder signs items at request ; with the understanding it's all foundling crap anyway
21:36 asciilifeform probably this is the only consistent and long-term-sane method.
21:36 mircea_popescu aha.
21:38 asciilifeform i also expect that (at least if traditional bitcoin continues to function interruptedly) promisetronic 'we the wise men agreed that hash H represents this tarball which existed in 2012...' will become entirely unnecessary and hence dispensed with in favour of actual pointers to deedbot
21:38 asciilifeform *uninterruptedly
21:39 asciilifeform though it still doesn't hurt to remember that deedbot (or any similar scheme) can only prove ~floors~ and never ~ceilings~
21:39 asciilifeform no matter how it is made.
21:40 asciilifeform (i.e. you can show that $item is ~no older~ than B blocks, but never ~no younger~)
21:41 mircea_popescu indeed, this is a temporary fix we find selves in
21:41 mod6 heheh. this is complicated huh.
21:41 mircea_popescu mod6 kinda the thing with prototyping, we end up with redesigns
21:41 mircea_popescu "design clarifications" to be proper eh
21:44 asciilifeform that 'days of rage' piece is monumental.
21:44 asciilifeform mega-recommended.
21:44 mircea_popescu yeah.
21:46 mod6 I appreciate both of your thoughts and considerations on the subject matter.
21:48 asciilifeform yw mod6
21:49 asciilifeform lemme know if you need a hand with the algo (though imho my original proggy was pretty readable)
21:52 mod6 Much appreciated. Other than this problem with the roots at hand, I think mine is in pretty great shape. The implementation of the all-antecedents axiom creates a bit of a slant here for what I have. But I'll do some digging into what your v99 looks like again and see if I can't get something resolved with that.
22:04 asciilifeform 'rage' commentz also interesting, in places:
22:04 asciilifeform 'Myself I started to drift out of SDS when martial arts training became obligatory. When weapons training was required that was the end for me. What sent me away was not so much the notion of using a gun for a political end as that the providers of the guns were people who until five minutes previous could not fundraise a nickel bag for a party. Suddenly they had weapons, unlimited weapons, nice
22:04 asciilifeform weapons, and an infinite supply of ammunition for training purposes. If they burned out an M60 by running it too hot there was another M60 ready to go. And a little farm in Wisconsin to use as a training facility. All the farmers in the vicinity could and did hear the M60 and the BAR, so could the local police, somehow in spite of every local looking daggers at the hippies when they passed through
22:04 asciilifeform town there was no problem ever. Someone had arranged all this and it was not the Episcopal Church. Of course the two honchos who ran our chapter were both later exposed as pedophiles and FBI.'
22:04 asciilifeform (if unverifiable.)
22:05 asciilifeform 'Let me tell you about young Bernardine. She was a strikingly attractive woman. Beautiful clear olive skin. Busty and she showed it off all the time. And usually in high black boots. Not working class engineer boots, shiny black fetish gear. Have you seen the Weather movie? Through the entire “underground” period she wore that gear. They were “underground” on the Upper West Side, in the
22:05 asciilifeform Columbia University neighborhood, where lots and lots of people knew who they were. And miraculously the FBI could not find them.'
22:09 mircea_popescu seems believable.
22:10 asciilifeform quite believable. my understanding is that '65s-'75 usa was undergoing a 'british empire' moment where 'youngest sons' of the elite had 'lack of breathing room' and went uppity, and threw a bit of tantrum before being reabsorbed, bill ayers style, into specially-created 'church' bureaucracies
22:10 mircea_popescu anwyay, the farmer's faith in the functional ability of their institutions, fbi or whatever, is entirely misplaced. about half my friends throughout my entire ro period were "underground" or "on the lam" ; for that matter the italians recently arrested that dude with the cesar ciphers ? he was "hiding" for 30 years by then
22:11 asciilifeform part of it is the 'uncatchable joe' aspect
22:11 asciilifeform (very easy to 'underground' when no one is hunting)
22:11 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aha. but the article makes a very solid point : the current "start-up culture" is EXACTLY this. as discussed in the trilema "sv pedos" piece and ailleurs.
22:13 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nothing is easier than http://trilema.com/2017/my-ai-problems-a-humble-confession/#comment-121016 "I didn't ask the girl if she thinks I'm any good or not. This is neither her business nor something within her purview. I asked the girl if she thinks she has it in her to try and survive once the world (WHICH I OWN) is no longer friendly to her. I didn't ask the DA for his evaluation of me. I couldn't give less of
22:13 mircea_popescu a shit what some random bureaucrat thinks on any topic. I asked the DA if he thinks he has it in him to survive once the world which I control is no longer tolerant of him."
22:13 mircea_popescu easiest decision a bureaucrat ever made.
22:13 asciilifeform of course we get to hear from the successful mircea_popescus, rather than the 'emperor nortons' who were SWATed like flies.
22:14 mircea_popescu emperor norton died in his bed. well, after a fashion.
22:14 asciilifeform well yes. but picture him transported, somehow, to obummer's usa.
22:15 mircea_popescu anyway. it's a discussion of history not a proposal. woe to the apprentice wizard who fancies himself a wizard on the strength of having read the actual wizard's youth journal.
22:16 mircea_popescu (contrary to the deeply desired implication reflected in the name, there's no relation between a wizard and an apprentice wizard.)
22:16 asciilifeform apprentice is more of a walking spermatozoid than anything else.
22:18 asciilifeform 'I read somewhere that whoever was calling for the most violence was who Bernardine latched onto and fucked silly. No violence, no pussy. '
22:18 mircea_popescu heh
22:22 mircea_popescu fancy the inept seinfeld boys of the time, trying to find the secret rubik cube configuration
22:23 mircea_popescu "we hacked bernardine! it's X!"
22:24 asciilifeform smoke moar, waft away the plague miasmas.
22:24 asciilifeform get married, grow taller!
22:28 mircea_popescu apparently it works on some people!!!
22:40 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes on consideration piece not really worth translating ; it was a short intro for clueless ro audience. read eric berne &co instead.
~ 1 hours 2 minutes ~
23:42 adlai the bug is calling it a 'root', it's actually a leaf. the "root" of the relevant patch tree is the node you're trying to press. the "second root" which makes less sense (but should still not eggog) is "press two nodes"
23:45 mircea_popescu eh shuddup.
23:49 * adlai was gonna update on 'homework' but complies with sir's request
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