Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-01-02 | 2017-01-04 → ↓
00:21 lobbes http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-02#1595330 << yeah, gotta be mike_c (not mine, at least)
00:21 a111 Logged on 2017-01-02 22:10 hanbot: <mircea_popescu> but i am well and truly at a loss, who owns it ? no idea. maybe lobbes ? i somehow du nthink it was mike_c- << i'm pretty sure it was his, yeah.
00:21 mircea_popescu aha
00:22 mircea_popescu and in other disbelief, http://68.media.tumblr.com/98ca711f5c182ad59659a3dcda925f17/tumblr_o3qciviaCT1uzvpfmo1_1280.jpg
00:24 mircea_popescu meanwhile in not-terrible blogs, http://thetarpit.org/posts/y03/055-on-education.html
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00:37 mircea_popescu of course, he got half of the discussion of etymology of engineering from the older discussion ; it's true that in french it comes from ingenuity however in english it comes from engine. which was the fucking point, this slide.
~ 43 minutes ~
01:21 BingoBoingo And in African it derives from the man Petrus telling the boy David that building is skilled work as David plays gopher for Petrus's tools
01:31 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595391 << quite interesting www -- do you know this d00d?
01:31 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 05:24 mircea_popescu: meanwhile in not-terrible blogs, http://thetarpit.org/posts/y03/055-on-education.html
~ 2 hours 6 minutes ~
03:38 deedbot http://www.contravex.com/2017/01/03/whats-a-hackathon-anyways/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - What’s a hackathon anyways?
~ 5 hours ~
08:38 Framedragger https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-heart-firefox << systematic incorporation of security/privacy related (anti-tracking, sandboxing, etc.) patches by tor browser team into firefox mainline. (http://archive.is/SSNzk)
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08:40 mircea_popescu anything good ?
08:42 mircea_popescu in other lulz : <!-- Ticket #11289, IE bug fix: always pad the error page with enough characters such that it is greater than 512 bytes, even after gzip compression abcdefghijklmnopqrstuvwxyz1234567890aabbccddeeffgghhiijjkkllmmnnooppqqrrssttuuvvwwxxyyzz11223344556677889900abacbcbdcdcededfefegfgfhghgihihjijikjkjlklkmlmlnmnmononpopoqpqprqrqsrsrtstsubcbcdcdedefefgfabcadefbghicjkldmnoepqrfstugvwxhyz1i234j567k890laabmbccnddeoeffpg
08:42 mircea_popescu ghqhiirjjksklltmmnunoovppqwqrrxsstytuuzvvw0wxx1yyz2z113223434455666777889890091abc2def3ghi4jkl5mno6pqr7stu8vwx9yz11aab2bcc3dd4ee5ff6gg7hh8ii9j0jk1kl2lmm3nnoo4p5pq6qrr7ss8tt9uuvv0wwx1x2yyzz13aba4cbcb5dcdc6dedfef8egf9gfh0ghg1ihi2hji3jik4jkj5lkl6kml7mln8mnm9ono -->
08:42 shinohai lmao
08:43 Framedragger lol
08:43 Framedragger certainly nothing of huge import. some of those are definitely a bit snakeoil'y, but not completely useless. i don't know how much you care about e.g. browser fingerprinting. right now html5 canvas leaks badly, i.e. "The adversary simply renders WebGL, font, and named color data to a Canvas element, extracts the image buffer, and computes a hash of that image data. Subtle differences in the video card, font packs, and even font and graph
08:43 Framedragger simple, high-entropy fingerprint of a computer. In fact, the hash of the rendered image can be used almost identically to a tracking cookie by the web server."
08:44 Framedragger so turn off such on-by-default leakage (and other leakages for fingerprinting), etc.
08:44 mircea_popescu Framedragger you are aware firefox is dead for all practical purposes, yes ? in fact i don't know any browser that lost market share at its speed, except of course netscape back in the day.
08:45 Framedragger because of the recent whatitwas?
08:45 mircea_popescu which is in itself a very amusing commentary on the toils and travails of the jwz gang. they... rescued netscape. and it did... netscape.
08:45 Framedragger (http://qntra.net/2016/12/emergency-mozilla-bulletin-stop-using-firefox/)
08:46 Framedragger what does mircea_popescu use currently?
08:46 Framedragger i guess you meant conceptually dead, and with definite practically-dead event horizon in sight
08:48 mircea_popescu Framedragger because who knows, but it is under 10%, a lesser opera by now.
08:48 mircea_popescu both chrome and, insanely, ie, the ie above, ate it.
08:48 mircea_popescu Framedragger nah, it's been going on for 2-3 years at the least.
08:49 Framedragger so suddenly the numbers of wide populace matter? :)
08:49 Framedragger but i agree that things don't look too good.
08:50 Framedragger (fwiw sandboxing efforts look nice and more technically involved; question is how easy it'd be to apply work done there to other browsers and so on; if not, meh)
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08:50 mircea_popescu for a browser ? come on. it's not good. the only thing it had going for it were a bunch of retards using it. now it doesn't even have that.
08:50 Framedragger yeah, gossipd client != browser. market share matters hm.
08:51 mircea_popescu i use lynx and curl.
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08:51 Framedragger that's cool.
08:52 Framedragger (i at least check that my webpages look good on lynx/elinks)
08:52 mircea_popescu i dunno how cool it is, but let me tell you it is very productive
08:53 Framedragger i suppose you also avoid the 'why does a multibillion clock machine lag on key press omfg' fail as icing on the cake.
08:53 mircea_popescu how the fuck would it lag, really now.
08:55 Framedragger this one time, i was scriptifying cheap flight booking. was amazed how less-laggy the simulated/automated 'browsing experience' (website didn't like bots, needed to convince it by running part of actual browser) was (cf. manual clicking on airline's website). got depressed
08:55 Framedragger sorry state of affairs.
08:55 mircea_popescu the moment they start with "not like bots" you know they're imbeciles.
08:58 Framedragger some airlines (such as ryanair) try to stuff the user with tons of shitty offers before reservation confirmation page. horribru UX. such m0netizzation $trategy. imbeciles indeed :/
08:59 mircea_popescu it's not a strategy for anything than for the pernicious insanity of "marketing matters".
~ 33 minutes ~
09:32 deedbot http://trilema.com/2017/qntra-sqntr-december-2016-statement/ << Trilema - Qntra (S.QNTR) December 2016 Statement
09:39 adlai deedbot: http://dpaste.com/3VFZXYN.txt
09:40 mircea_popescu and in new tendencies in home entertainment systems for 2017, http://68.media.tumblr.com/6b97896138173843e20809c15fc09979/tumblr_o9qcvhfobN1vxlh30o1_1280.jpg
09:40 adlai happy integer fiats since genesis, o chanl of the schemer's truth
09:40 mircea_popescu how's life in africa's last rhodesia ?
09:41 adlai today is a beautiful day, it hasn't rained in /hours/
09:42 mircea_popescu lol
09:45 adlai !!deed http://dpaste.com/3VFZXYN.txt
09:46 mircea_popescu you mean you just got your first period ?!
09:46 deedbot accepted: 1
09:46 adlai thar she go
09:47 adlai mircea_popescu: nah, back in middle school mrs whatsit told me not to forget those because they help to end e sentence, yet mene hesn't even begen yet!
09:49 trinque adlai: what is this, a gunzip exploit or something?
09:49 mircea_popescu talk sensibly trinque ; gnuzip is made by foss, it has had millions of eyes on it. all bugs are shallow!
09:49 trinque lel
09:50 mircea_popescu fucking idiots, "oh, in this very narrow sliver of experience that is our irrelevant if self-important life, x observation held so far, especially because he have no fucking clue as to statistics, logic, or anything else. THEREFORE IT IS A NATURAL LAW OF THE UNYVERSE!!!"
09:52 adlai trinque: took me a moment but i lol'd
10:00 mircea_popescu shinohai the "altcorn" eh. bien trouve.
10:02 shinohai ah mircea_popescu you refering to scotcoin or whatever it is
10:02 mircea_popescu aha
10:05 mircea_popescu http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/images/grade%20inflation.jpg << fucking epic graph. if enough eyes watch it, there's no further need for Cs.
10:12 mircea_popescu "The "college is a scam" train is one on which I'm all aboard, but that doesn't mean each individual professor has to be scamming students; there's no reason why he can't do a good job and teach his students something that they aren't going to get simply by reading the text. If a student can skip class and still ace the class, the kid is either very bright or the professor is utterly useless. Right? Either way, the kid's
10:12 mircea_popescu wasting his money." quoth the endearigly naive mr ballas. except the counter to this is in disgrace, the novel, of course : when a teacher does finally, for incomprehensible reasons, try, the OTHER TEACHERS assemble a panel to try and con
10:12 mircea_popescu vince him never again to try.
10:12 mircea_popescu actually -- to try and convice him to sign a statement beseaching all the other teachers never EVER to try.
10:15 mircea_popescu anyway, http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/08/grade_inflation.html ; total must-read.
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10:29 jurov S.QNTR distributed
10:31 shinohai "But for complex reasons, Wilcox had to prevent the calculations from ever being seen." http://archive.is/m9i1U
10:40 mircea_popescu danke jurov
10:45 deedbot http://deedbot.org/bundle-446448.txt
~ 47 minutes ~
11:33 asciilifeform meanwhile, from the dept. of orlols, http://cluborlov.blogspot.com/2017/01/how-to-make-america-great-again-with.html >> '...This was the last time the Americans were able to run off with a fantastic amount of other people’s money, giving the US yet another temporary lease on life.'
11:34 mircea_popescu wait wut ?
11:35 asciilifeform (tldr : d00d seems to think that saudi a. will be plundered next.)
11:37 BingoBoingo But Iran'll do that!
11:38 asciilifeform 'If Trump doesn’t crack open the chocolate egg that is Saudi Arabia and run off with the toy inside, then somebody else will. Saudi Arabia’s days are numbered. For now, it is still rich in money, oil, sand and imbeciles, but it is burning through the first two faster and faster. Just wait a decade or so, and the sand and the imbeciles will be all that’s left. Somebody will try to get to them and snatch what’s left of the priz
11:38 asciilifeform e well before then. It might as well be the Americans: they started this shambolic desert kingdom; they might as well be the ones to put it out of its misery.'
11:38 asciilifeform lulzy.
11:43 mircea_popescu yes, russian policy in middle east is pretty much centered in squashing the saudis.
11:47 trinque lulzy, so US-istan is unique in its scam and plunder campaign for a few paragraphs, then "lets get the rest of the major powers to all plunder saudi together"
11:47 asciilifeform difference (at least afaik, from armchair) is that ru would have to actually fight, but usg would only need to press a few buttons and turn off the (u.s.-made) air defense systems of s.a.
11:47 trinque this guy's a fucking cartoonist
11:49 asciilifeform am i the only one who recalls the fanfare re ru supposedly selling s400 rocket system to s.a. ? if true, possibly they also want in on the spoils
11:49 asciilifeform ('we switch off if you switch off & share')
11:50 trinque if we want to get out the real tin foil for a minute, somebody might suspect the "great powers" have been planning on how to restructure the middle east *together*
11:51 mircea_popescu because they've never done this before, about 12 or so times since 1880 ; not that it EVER fucking worked , nor that the "great powers" that wanna be, and until the last boot steps on the last bureaucrat face will continue to pretend to be, are actually capable of learning or anything.
11:52 trinque aha
11:52 mircea_popescu "you have to do this sort of thing!" "why ?" "because if you don't it might appear you don't exist" "but you do in fact not exist" "SHH!!!11"
11:56 mircea_popescu man check it out, simutaneous bloks, 60 and 61
11:57 mircea_popescu the fucking odds of this ? bw.com and btc.com boundry, and it really doesn't look like there's more than 18 seconds delay. so btc.com checked the block 446460 and built on it and found a block within ~15 seconds ?
11:57 mircea_popescu these people aren't checking ANYTHING.
11:58 asciilifeform either that, and/or the cartel hidden block buffer is 2+ long
11:58 mircea_popescu leaking the info quite so ineptly ?
11:58 asciilifeform ( not hard to ~release from buffer~ ~simultaneously )
11:59 asciilifeform either ineptly, or wanted to leak a bit.
11:59 asciilifeform a 'hello' for mircea_popescu et al.
12:00 mircea_popescu bw got what, like 3k blocks past 6 months. not much of a player.
12:00 mircea_popescu course btc.com is half that.
12:01 asciilifeform none of these observations disprove a scenario where both are fingerpuppets.
12:01 mircea_popescu anyway, the only good news on that front is that fees are consistently over 5% of the block reward.
12:01 mircea_popescu 5.05% over the past 30 days.
12:16 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595397 << the various leprosoria ~could~ have an actual sporting shot! at maintaining successful pretense of independence , if they were to not do this kind of obvious 'we all pull shitpatches from one another' circus
12:16 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 13:38 Framedragger: https://blog.torproject.org/blog/tor-heart-firefox << systematic incorporation of security/privacy related (anti-tracking, sandboxing, etc.) patches by tor browser team into firefox mainline. (http://archive.is/SSNzk)
12:17 asciilifeform as it is, no one who understands the actual purpose of tor could possibly suffer illusions re firefox, or vice-versa
12:17 mircea_popescu but that's kinda the point. avoid specificity of diddling
12:17 asciilifeform expand
12:18 mircea_popescu all empire code must be <than x steps away from one common trunk.
12:19 mircea_popescu that;s the entire fucking point of socialism. "gotta keep together".
12:19 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595417 << firefox, if you have not had the misfortune to look at the internals, is quite like other 'open sores' in that it is ~impossible to meaningfully recycle any part of it in 'other' (supposedly they are in fact ~other~, and not minor variations on the original) projects
12:19 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 13:50 Framedragger: (fwiw sandboxing efforts look nice and more technically involved; question is how easy it'd be to apply work done there to other browsers and so on; if not, meh)
12:19 asciilifeform you will have more luck recycling a rotting deer carcass in the road.
12:19 mircea_popescu dja know btw there's an entire subculture living off those ?
12:20 asciilifeform no doubt
12:21 asciilifeform (chukchas and many neighbouring tribes had an entire thing where they would lower deer into a swamp, and dig him up months, sometimes years, later, and eat. apparently putrefaction toxins can be 'trained for', from childhood even. rather like strychnine.)
12:23 asciilifeform re 'open sores', even a ~very~ small gadget, and in fact one that started life as a stand-alone library: mpi (bignum) piece of gpg 1.4, was quite astonishingly painful to properly saw off the kochball
12:24 asciilifeform ( found here, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1533 )
12:25 asciilifeform there were tentacles throughout.
12:26 asciilifeform it was also a demo of the utter malignant idiocy of automake (zapped! and you won't miss it, thing builds on all major unixlikes with a single 'make')
12:26 mircea_popescu may be worth your time to specificallyt document this
12:26 asciilifeform killing automake cut the size of the thing literally in half.
12:26 mircea_popescu for later, have a proper example of wehat these metaphors mean.
12:27 asciilifeform i actually sat down to write a long and painfully pedantic piece about what i did, but gave up, let the diff speak for itself
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12:27 mircea_popescu i think that wasn't the right choice.
12:27 asciilifeform it was literally a week+ of sawing off #includes, nixing #ifdef's, moving blocks of code from 1,001 places and deduplicating, etc.
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12:28 mircea_popescu graves do not speak, not by themselves, not for themselves.
12:28 asciilifeform the other thing is that i'm not entirely convinced that i was barking up a useful tree there.
12:28 asciilifeform we won't be welding gnu mpi onto anything permanent.
12:28 mircea_popescu the process is of interest.
12:29 asciilifeform aite, i'ma put this on (long) list of things-must-be-done
12:29 mircea_popescu the driver isn't "this is how we got the perfect woman" ; the driver is "and this is how separating one of these ugly argentine schmucks from her fambly and society goes"
12:29 asciilifeform (but if someone ~else~ wants to take the diff, and write article -- do not hesitate)
12:29 mircea_popescu the reason you are stuck with it is that apparently the soul resides in the gall bladder.
12:29 mircea_popescu another's bile might not do.
12:30 asciilifeform quite likely.
12:30 * asciilifeform idly wonders if prb is infested, yet, with automakeism
12:30 asciilifeform it is pestilential in opensores world.
12:30 asciilifeform and i was quite surprised when starting trb and noticing that it was absent there.
12:31 mircea_popescu they don't just release binaries ?!
12:31 trinque heh, I'll not link the shithub
12:31 trinque but yes, appears to have accreted automake
12:31 asciilifeform lol megaunsurprise.
12:31 asciilifeform 'what could be better than 800KB of makefile! and perl to make the makefile!'
12:35 asciilifeform in other noose, asciilifeform recently bought a 'top of the line' civilian motherboard, and as soon as being lifted from the crate, it shed a few 0805 capacitors
12:35 asciilifeform unleaded solder ftw.
12:36 mircea_popescu in the same vein, i have now spent in excess of $300 buying no less than nine "pc sound systems" over the past 2 years. i have nfi why i decided to just buy one of the cheapo, two speaker things. and then replace it and so on.
12:36 asciilifeform they burn out ?
12:36 mircea_popescu the last pair died in the lulziest of ways : it's usb powered, and it will short the usb when the sound is loud enough, lose power, then come back a half second later.
12:36 mircea_popescu im guessing a capacitor went. this time.
12:36 asciilifeform aaah those
12:36 mircea_popescu another one, the transformer went, evidently, wire too thin and melted
12:37 mircea_popescu each had a different story of sadness, and all together they could have made a small rocket. if only their materials weren't allocated by idiots, that is.
12:37 asciilifeform i recall i threw one just like this out, and kept , to my grief, its transformer. which then nuked $1000+ worth of various iron i connected it to, because the voltage it put out was actually ~double what was on the sticker.
12:37 asciilifeform (the speakers -- did not care.)
12:37 mircea_popescu heh
12:39 asciilifeform even simple thing, that i would have bet money no one could fuck up -- fucked up. ~year ago i bought 'antistatic mat', conductive rubber thing with coiled cord that goes to ground pin of mains socket, etc. that cord is now frayed in 11 places.
12:39 asciilifeform each hanging by hair's breadth of wire now.
12:39 mircea_popescu and thereby working more as antenna
12:39 asciilifeform was ok antenna even when new
12:40 asciilifeform because the thing that was supposed to sit in the socket, would wiggle, like 'hotdog in hallway'
12:40 asciilifeform had to bend it so it would sit even moderately still and make contact
12:44 asciilifeform i must echo the words of mircea_popescu's electric heater article, and say, that such a thing could never appear by chance, someone busted his arse to design something so malignantly anti-functional .
12:45 asciilifeform the other hypothesis that invites itself is the tlp/mp 'ceremonial object' one. the, e.g., static mat, was sold on a www with reviews, and not necessarily faux ones. many satisfied sheeples own various tools and NEVER USE, and they -- are quite happy!
12:46 asciilifeform because 'mine is still in great shape after 5yrs' 'how many times you used it' 'umm... 1? 2?'
12:47 asciilifeform 'all wire frays' 'really nao? i have wire here from 1940s that is frayed in 0 places'
12:48 asciilifeform questionable metallurgy is another thing. not only pb-free solder, but, e.g., aluminum wire.
12:48 asciilifeform much less ductile than copper, and it frays.
12:48 asciilifeform (sc4mz0rz invariably cu-plate it, to deceive simple-minded buyer)
12:48 mircea_popescu nasty.
12:49 asciilifeform didja know it is nearly impossible to buy pure-cu ethernet snake ?
12:49 mircea_popescu nope
12:49 asciilifeform you gotta test it, when you buy
12:49 mircea_popescu well this is different\
12:49 asciilifeform half the time you pay 2-3x for the Real Deal, and get Al.
12:50 mircea_popescu yes, but they you also hit the provider with five figure bill for it.
12:50 asciilifeform i suppose you could, if you buy by the trainload & get shafted there
12:50 asciilifeform (if you buy by the hundy - you're a gnat, and will be hitting nobody with nothing)
12:51 mircea_popescu nickle and dime worked this way in 1816 too.
12:51 asciilifeform the folx who buy by the trainload, generally are happy to pass the scam on to their retail chumps tho.
12:52 asciilifeform i've yet to personally meet the howard hughes who buys cable by trainload for ~own house~.
12:52 mircea_popescu the problerm with "everything is for retail" version of "man is the measure of all things" huh.
12:52 asciilifeform aha.
12:53 BingoBoingo * asciilifeform idly wonders if prb is infested, yet, with automakeism << Monero is!
12:55 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> the other hypothesis that invites itself is the tlp/mp 'ceremonial object' one. the, e.g., static mat, was sold on a www with reviews, and not necessarily faux ones. many satisfied sheeples own various tools and NEVER USE, and they -- are quite happy! << Like your HDX hacksaw!!!
12:55 asciilifeform quite like
12:55 BingoBoingo Plastic part under tension!
12:55 asciilifeform no shortage of these.
12:56 asciilifeform e.g., harbour freight corp., sells lathes (not tiny ones, either, but proper-sized) with PLASTIC GEARS
12:56 asciilifeform i shit thee not
12:56 mircea_popescu plastic is as good as anything else!
12:56 asciilifeform quite so, when NOBODY USES
12:56 mircea_popescu using things is abusive, rapist and racist.
12:56 BingoBoingo That's kinda harbour freight's schtick "You can say you now own X, but pls don't use!"
12:56 asciilifeform makes for quite as effective a ritual object as titanium
12:56 mircea_popescu have you talked with your lathe about its feelings ?
12:59 asciilifeform i've lost count of how many times i buy a not-the-cheapest $tool, and after 2-3 uses it crumbles into, literally, dust, and then buy 'nice' one, which half the time has been chinafied/plasticized already into very close resemblance to the el cheapo item, sometimes beyond any meaningful diff
12:59 asciilifeform to take entirely random example, top-of-the-line 'wiha' multihead screwdrivers, ALL now have plastic handles
13:00 mircea_popescu hey, the notion that people want to do things has given way to the reality that people want to look like doing, appear to be doing, but safely (ie, not doing).
13:00 asciilifeform one or two stuck screws, and the hex slot in it , becomes circular.
13:00 mircea_popescu the "tools" are kindergarten items because the people are kindergarten kids.
13:00 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: yeah but the 'moment of truth' comes when you go and buy 3, 4 figure (usd) 'adult' item and get same.
13:00 asciilifeform 'demise of lispm' applied universally.
13:01 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> one or two stuck screws, and the hex slot in it , becomes circular. << Probably not "stuck", just married with "blue loctite" proper tool to free is bit, breaker bar, and mallet
13:02 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: lel, mallet on lcd? german optics ? etc
13:02 mircea_popescu aha, there's nothing special about it. the "adult" item, how could this be.
13:02 BingoBoingo No mallet on breaker bar
13:02 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: and where do i buy a 'breaker bar' that fits 0.5mm screw.
13:03 trinque gotta be a narrow, long pipe out there that'd do
13:03 BingoBoingo You use adapters to take it down to size that eats bit
13:03 mircea_popescu ahahahaha
13:03 asciilifeform does BingoBoingo work on anything smaller than tractor ?
13:03 BingoBoingo And hope there isn't too much slack to eat impact
13:03 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Worked to free last stubborn screws on laptop
13:03 mircea_popescu the idea is grandiose, a lengthy telescope of adaptors used by a guy standing on a box on a chair on a desk on a stair on a rope,.
13:04 trinque now turn carefully!!!
13:04 mircea_popescu with caliper (adapted from wrench)
13:04 BingoBoingo Anyways shouldn't take more than four adapters, 3 if you start with 1/4" drive bar
13:05 mircea_popescu this should be a story, totally. man finds love of life, is glad, convinces her, discovers it dun fit, goes back through his hero's journey to get all the various helpers to help. finally he sticks it in her among the octopi, crabs, bat wings and other fit-makers
13:05 BingoBoingo lol
13:06 mircea_popescu it could be called
13:06 mircea_popescu AUTOMAKE
13:06 asciilifeform ^^^
13:06 * trinque dies
13:06 BingoBoingo !~bash 13
13:06 jhvh1 Last 13 lines bashed and pending publication
13:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: related http://xwap.me/books/36430/Skazka-skolzkaya-nemnozhko.html << supposedly written in gulag
13:09 asciilifeform 'Вот царевна под замком / стонет сизым голубком, / слезы тяжкие роняет, / за свечой свечу вставляет... / Извела уж сто свечей, / а ничуть не легче ей.'
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13:09 mircea_popescu hehe
13:14 BingoBoingo Other higher danger way to unstick screws http://www.kleintools.com/catalog/torque-and-impact-drivers/reversible-impact-driver-set
13:14 BingoBoingo Also taller stack of octopussy likely required.
13:14 asciilifeform lol, perforator
13:15 asciilifeform why not woodchipper.
13:15 asciilifeform or 120mm mortar.
13:15 mircea_popescu small flamethrower
13:15 mircea_popescu it is a point oft verified in history, that if howitzer fails to solve problem it was only because not enough caliber.
13:17 * jurov right today attempted to switch door hinge on a new fridge, wore up a shitty screw, gave up :(
13:17 BingoBoingo Anyways chuck on this could probably grasp free screwdriver shaft http://www.ebay.com/itm/Vintage-Milwaukee-1678-21-VSR-Extended-Reach-Hole-Hawg-Drill-/231839081329?_ul=BO
13:17 jurov dunno if pyrotechnics would help
13:18 BingoBoingo jurov: Drill out old screw and tap in new threads
13:18 mircea_popescu jurov in practice, once you notice the screw is shedding, which should not ever happen ever, what you do is you put in one of those magnetic detachable screwdriver bits with cyanoacrylate. once it's cured you take the screw out and throw it away.
13:19 jurov prolly next time when defrosting
13:19 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: or epoxy or "red loctite" depending on how much force is planned to be needed to free
13:19 mircea_popescu right.
13:20 mircea_popescu for all the hatred of modern agriculture / plastics, this business beats the shit out of the 1980s method, cut the head and drill the screw.
13:26 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: ever actually try this? cyanoacrylate has ~0 torsion strength
13:26 asciilifeform (~everyone thinks of this, and tries it: once)
13:26 mircea_popescu pretty much what i do.
13:26 mircea_popescu why would it need torsion strength ?
13:27 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> why would it need torsion strength ? << Some people likely try this too late and cyanoacrylate is a poor filler material
13:27 mircea_popescu ah. that;s why i said, when you notice it ~starts~ shedding.
13:27 mircea_popescu by the time you drilled a hole into the head with your screwdriver...
13:28 BingoBoingo lol
13:29 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595511 <<< o noes, i'd have read
13:29 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 17:27 asciilifeform: i actually sat down to write a long and painfully pedantic piece about what i did, but gave up, let the diff speak for itself
13:30 mircea_popescu life on island so boring, davout would read anything.
~ 29 minutes ~
14:00 davout yeah, check it out i'm reading teh log
14:00 mircea_popescu lol
14:05 davout still working on my take on cutting the wallet out of TRB
↖
14:05 davout it is more painful than expectation
14:07 mircea_popescu a shocking development.
14:11 davout well yes, indexing UTXOs by address seems expensive
14:12 davout if you want to index every address
14:12 davout and if you don't, well, you're back at "monitor subset of all addresses" which immediately reduces to "wallet"
14:12 mircea_popescu in other things that seem expensive, http://68.media.tumblr.com/8b667b77c63c92f2f4606e64e7723857/tumblr_o90ypvnzSL1rth3slo1_1280.jpg
~ 32 minutes ~
14:45 ben_vulpes holy fuq nearly lost a toe on the ride in it's so cold
14:46 ben_vulpes davout: have you considered hammering a spigot in for "gimme utxo's relevant to this address"?
14:46 mod6 that's just like the listunspent thing that i backported.
14:46 davout ben_vulpes: i'm listing it as an option
14:47 davout downside of it is "node has to know which addresses to monitor, still has to keep clunk 'rescan' logic as well"
14:47 ben_vulpes mod6: listunspent takes arbitrary addresses or just what's in the wallet already?
14:48 asciilifeform davout: your (hypothetical? or is it done?) uncoupled-wallet -- what does it eat ?
14:48 ben_vulpes davout: i imagined this as a component of bear stone and skin knife transacting
14:48 asciilifeform (incoming blocks?)
14:48 asciilifeform (to learn how much coin you actually have)
14:48 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-19#1586221 << thread
14:48 a111 Logged on 2016-12-19 20:03 trinque: I'd have it run along indexing mine
14:48 mod6 ben_vulpes: addys in the wallet
14:48 trinque isn't equivalent to "wallet"
14:49 trinque done right, it'd be cracking the thing into many tools with clear purpose
14:49 trinque davout: ^
14:49 davout ben_vulpes: to take arbitrary addresses it needs an UTXOs indexed by addresses, which isn't cheap
14:49 asciilifeform trinque: what, in your analysis, is the set of orthogonal pieces 'wallet' breaks into ?
14:49 ben_vulpes davout: or to lean on the clunk, right?
14:49 davout trinque: yeah, that's the kind of design i'd like to end up with
14:50 davout ben_vulpes: i failed to parse
14:50 ben_vulpes instead of maintaining whole 'utxo pool', rescan for specific addresses on demand, shit utxos for that addr onto disk.
14:51 trinque asciilifeform: utxo index for arbitrary selected addresses (emphatically not for all addresses including one user just pulled from his ass), tx maker, tx signer, tx sender
14:52 trinque my wanting to track an address balance may have nothing at all to do with *me* spending to/from that address
14:52 davout ben_vulpes: sounds slow, although i confess i haven't actually experimented
14:52 asciilifeform trinque: looks reasonable
14:52 asciilifeform how does 'tx sender' work ?
14:52 davout trinque asciilifeform tx-sender must be built-in node
14:52 trinque sure
14:53 ben_vulpes davout: a full rescan of the blockchain takes ~12 hours on mod6's machine
14:53 ben_vulpes mod6: or was it shorter?
14:53 mod6 it wasn't that long
14:53 asciilifeform the sad part is that this is 'embarrassingly parallel'
14:53 trinque davout: I agree with "RI must bitcoinate *completely*"
14:53 davout ben_vulpes mod6 could probably be heavily parallelized too
14:53 mod6 iirc it was somewhere between 3-6 hours.
14:53 ben_vulpes davout: aye
14:53 davout trinque: but "must RI be a single binary?"
↖
14:54 trinque asciilifeform: tx sender is just a "sendrawtxn" that eats the data from user. maybe he made the txn with other RPC calls, maybe got from elsewhere
14:54 ben_vulpes davout: what if one thread finds a tx spent that another thread finds the unspent for
14:54 asciilifeform ^
14:55 asciilifeform i get it, the 'decouple everything', 'unix philosophy!!!' thing is appealing. but it runs into practical limits.
14:55 davout ben_vulpes: if i namedrop 'map-reduce' does that appease you?
14:55 asciilifeform we recently had a thread, where i described how parts of phuctor are quite slow precisely because of such decoupling.
14:55 davout i haven't thought about the rescanning approach much
14:55 ben_vulpes no
14:55 trinque davout: hard to say with current rats nest if things could be that cleanly separated ~starting from trb~
14:56 ben_vulpes because "map-reduce" does not reduce to "here's how i'm going to solve specifically the case where thread n finds an unspent out and thread n+1 finds its spent and in the reducing phase i collate everything proper-like"
↖
14:56 davout asciilifeform: nobody said it was cheap, maybe we end up finding out it's not really worth it
14:56 ben_vulpes leastaways not in my head
14:56 * trinque goes to find the "cleave the network fiddling and block verifying parts of trb" thread
14:57 davout ben_vulpes: when aggregating the outputs, nuke those for which a spent out is found? it sounds pretty trivial to me, am i missing something obvious?
14:57 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-20#1586732
14:57 a111 Logged on 2016-12-20 19:40 mircea_popescu: at the very least block digestion and peering must be cleaved in trb
14:57 asciilifeform trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-02#1562019 << possibly thread
14:57 a111 Logged on 2016-11-02 15:33 asciilifeform: after slicing apart mempool-node from blockchain-node, building 'dioded node' becomes trivial exercise.
14:57 trinque also that
14:58 ben_vulpes davout: you know maybe i need another cup of coffee
14:58 davout guess the "how do we then ban peers that send garbage" has been brought up wrt the network/data validation cleavage
14:59 asciilifeform trinque: it isn't , currently, clear to me that you can make this cut cleanly without hard-breaking with the traditional protocol.
↖
14:59 davout ben_vulpes: what time is it in ben_vulpistan?
14:59 ben_vulpes davout: "impossible without gossipd" according to asciilifeform
14:59 asciilifeform (what does the thing that actually speaks with peers look like, in your view ? peers will ask for, and send, blocks AND tx, on same socket, as per current protocol.)
14:59 ben_vulpes davout: dunno, "just biked into office after spending as much time with family as i wanted o'clock"?
15:00 ben_vulpes ~noon
15:00 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: feel free to suggest solution that does not 'require gossipd' but is also not perlistic ducttape.
15:00 asciilifeform everyone will clap.
15:00 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: just trying to get the guy up to speed
15:01 ben_vulpes i generally assume "everyone will clap" but rarely have that for which
15:01 trinque I was going to say the same, does require gossipd
15:01 trinque "don't talk to idiots" is a far broader problem than bitcoin
15:02 asciilifeform 'requires 80% of gossipd' would be a stronger statement, but then i'd have to explain which 80
15:03 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595690 << it actually must not be a binary.
15:03 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 19:53 davout: trinque: but "must RI be a single binary?"
15:04 asciilifeform i dun recall anyone ever suggesting that trb be distributed as exe...
15:04 asciilifeform ( BingoBoingo quit drink, adlai, iirc, quit lsd, so there is no one left to think this sort of notion )
15:05 mircea_popescu hey, he asked.
15:05 asciilifeform i parsed it as the sense-making 'build to one binary'
15:05 asciilifeform (as it presently does)
15:06 mircea_popescu what is this "one binary", for srs.
15:07 asciilifeform 1 process, in which all threads share (quite catastrophically, as readers of trb ml will know) the heap.
15:07 mircea_popescu well shit, we specifically don't want this
15:08 asciilifeform aha.
15:08 mircea_popescu so hence my answer!
15:11 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595700 << this has the cheap solution of "spent prevails" on the theory that it can't be the case an unspent input is ever found spent.
15:11 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 19:56 ben_vulpes: because "map-reduce" does not reduce to "here's how i'm going to solve specifically the case where thread n finds an unspent out and thread n+1 finds its spent and in the reducing phase i collate everything proper-like"
15:13 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595712 << you've never defined the level of "cleanly" contemplated here ; and for all practical purposes it's not relevant (ie, any uncleanliness in the result is already present in the current soup anyway)
15:13 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 19:59 asciilifeform: trinque: it isn't , currently, clear to me that you can make this cut cleanly without hard-breaking with the traditional protocol.
15:14 mircea_popescu it ~may~ be the case that some arbitrary level of cleanliness requires an entirely new universe. this, however, can never inhibit the brushing of toilets.
15:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the tcp stack per se does not offer any means whereby two proggies speak simultaneously through 1 socket
15:14 mircea_popescu this was not an input in teh scheme.
15:15 asciilifeform so you end up needing a third. (supposing that you are trying to speak the old protocol, with heathens!)
15:15 asciilifeform because if not, then naturally -- not.
15:15 mircea_popescu you do not. a speaks through b and through b only.
15:15 asciilifeform who's b ?
15:15 mircea_popescu b handles the networking ; a handles the blockchain.
15:15 asciilifeform so b there is the 'third' contemplated earlier.
15:16 asciilifeform (really, a 'c', 'a' speaks blockchain and 'b' speaks mempool)
15:16 mircea_popescu no such third was contemplated ; when discussing a proposal you are stuck, willy nilly, first understanding it and then referring it
15:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: draw the cut plox
15:16 mircea_popescu you're not at liberty to discuss something else, in different terms.
15:16 asciilifeform explicitly, where do you propose the cut
15:16 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-20#1586739 exactly where trinque linked.
15:16 a111 Logged on 2016-12-20 19:42 mircea_popescu: nope. blockchain part will get to it when it gets to it, and tell you. until then, peer part builds queues.
15:17 asciilifeform your 'b' : mempool+networking, 'a' -- blockchain ?
15:17 mircea_popescu which mempool ? each b has one, as a queue.
15:17 mircea_popescu each b, a have one, i mean.
15:17 asciilifeform aite, this is the interpose thing
15:18 asciilifeform (imho good idea)
15:18 mircea_popescu "i have heard this transaction" is of interest to b ; not of a. "this is a transaction from a block" is of interest to a.
15:19 mircea_popescu yes, they're both "transactions" in the terms of the eventual datastruct they'll occupy. they aren't for that reason the same thing.
15:19 mircea_popescu but anyway, this is all well known matter.
15:19 asciilifeform it might be worth mircea_popescu's time to write a detailed sketch of this item.
15:20 asciilifeform (the 'sanity proxy', if you will, for trb)
15:28 mircea_popescu hm.
15:33 mircea_popescu asciilifeform :
15:33 mircea_popescu TRB to be split into two parts : TRB.B and TRB.N. Queues B.B B.T N.B to be created. TRB.N inherits the code to connect to peers. TRB.N reads blocks from peers, and puts them in N.B. TRB.N reads txn from peers and puts them in M.T. TRB.N does nothing else (with the possible exception of rate limiting for peers). TRB.B reads N.B and verifies the blocks. if the block is verified it is added to B.B and its component txn to B.T ;
15:33 mircea_popescu otherwise it is discarded. B.T may be pruned (according to arbitrary address list, for instance). Rate limiting in TRB.N may be constructed to observe N.B items that fail to propagate to B.B and ban the originating peers.
↖
15:34 mircea_popescu all three queues to be implemented as ring buffers of user specified size.
↖
15:36 mircea_popescu M.T deliberately left unspecified, it is the equivalent of today's "mempool". perhaps should also be a ring buffer like the other 3.
15:38 mircea_popescu in any case : TRB.N needs write access to N.B and M.T and read access to B.B ; TRB.B needs read access to N.B and write access to B.B and B.T. it may be a good idea to also give TRB.N read access to B.T but this should be operator-knob
15:39 asciilifeform what does B.T do ?
15:39 mircea_popescu that's ~the wallet.
15:39 asciilifeform N.B ?
15:39 mircea_popescu "watched addresses", or something of this kind.
15:39 mircea_popescu "blocks that have been recevied via the network"
15:42 mircea_popescu this scheme among other things cheaply allows the "add arbitrary new address to wallet", just have utility that (separately) processes B.B and produces new set of B.T.
↖
15:43 mircea_popescu but it is not required for B.T to be used only in this way or for this purpose. in principle there could be a whole pile of these, readily extended into whatever operator wants to do.
15:43 mircea_popescu "this is my B.T1 of all txn with no fee, this is my B.T2 of all the payments to my X, this is my B.T3 of all txn over 5kb relayed by ip X"etc.
15:44 mircea_popescu it seems certain B.B belongs on disk. it seems likely B.T also belongs on disk. it seems certain M.T belongs in memory. it seems likely N.B also belongs in memory.
15:48 mircea_popescu in particular N.B should be "older overwrites newer" style ring buffer. of particular concern are situations where the buffer is set shorter than the longest reorg, in which case the node will wedge. TRB.N not accepting blocks with index lower than highest of B.B is for sure not feasible. "how many behind" should be an operator knob.
↖
15:49 mircea_popescu (this knob is then in practice equivalent to the "checkpoints" discussed previously)
15:49 * davout is getting lost in the variable names
15:49 mod6 i drew myself a diagram, helps.
15:50 mircea_popescu N indicates networking, B indicates "blockhain", or homebase or whatever.
15:51 davout hrm, i'll have to re-read
↖
15:55 mircea_popescu anyway, the great gain is that no two elements need/have write access to the same thing by this scheme. in point of fact one way to look at current trb/prb is to say that they have "write locks" on all the fucking time and deadlock.
15:56 mod6 indeed, synchronized code everywhere.
16:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i can think of one (nonfatal, but quite unpleasant) headache: without a less-idiotic replacement for gnudiff, the resulting cut-trb becomes very difficult to pedigree to trad-trb . sorta like the problem with the tabs/spaces cleanup proposed by mircea_popescu last year
16:09 asciilifeform to rephrase: the resulting vdiff would be quite far from minimal
16:09 lobbes http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595456 << "First, and obviously, since the majority of the students are going to get an A, he just has to do just as well/horrifically as the average student, and if they're all writing about slavery with the enthusiasm of a photocopier then if he wants an A he better buckle down and learn the truly useful skill of masking the words of a Wikipedia page. "
16:09 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 15:15 mircea_popescu: anyway, http://thelastpsychiatrist.com/2011/08/grade_inflation.html ; total must-read.
16:09 asciilifeform (gigantic deletes and inserts, rather than the actual 'we moved such-and-such lines to this-here place...')
16:10 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this is a problem yeah. will however have to be bit, wtf else to do.
↖
16:11 mircea_popescu "never change anything" i guess.
16:11 asciilifeform i can think of a few palliative pills for it, in particular to structure the deletions and insertions in separate vpatches
16:11 asciilifeform but it does not ~solve~ problem, only makes it manageable.
16:12 mircea_popescu lobbes this incidentally explaisn why wikipedia is such shit - it's ~only function is a sort of open-sourced cliffnotes, and people would much prefer it to be bland and stupidly written so the teacher in class doesn't feel too inclined to think the kids' lifted material isn't his. after all he added all the flavour words in there!
16:12 lobbes That was a great read, thank you. Lined up exactly with my own anecdotal experiences. If I learned one thing in 'business school', it was how to properly bullshit. Only cost some 20k! Real learning didn't happen until after graduating (funnily enough, I also learned to drive -after- getting my license)
16:12 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i dunno, one huge insert patch is still pretty dubious as far as paternity goes.
16:12 asciilifeform yeah
16:13 mircea_popescu i suppose it IS easier to check though
16:13 asciilifeform hence 'palliative'
16:13 mircea_popescu yeah.
16:13 asciilifeform but a differ that ~understands moves~ would be quite spiffy.
16:13 asciilifeform ditto deletes.
16:13 asciilifeform !#s teco
16:13 a111 9 results for "teco", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=teco
16:14 mircea_popescu myeah. and if unfixed this issue liable to recur.
16:14 mircea_popescu v is really only as powerful as the underlying differ is.
↖
16:16 davout but if it really needs a magical difftron, can it still be said the operator can see everything with naked eye?
16:16 lobbes Re: wikipedia. I remember early on in grade school I was actually taught that wikipedia was shit. By the time I entered college this tune had changed. Now it all makes sense
16:16 mircea_popescu davout the gordian knot is how to make it both unmagical and self-summarizing.
16:16 mircea_popescu this is obviously true ai problem.
16:16 asciilifeform davout: that'd depend on 'how magical' , neh ?
16:18 davout sure
16:21 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i'm not entirely certain that the problem is solvable (it IS possible to define a richer diff language that permits block moves, but this also permits inscrutable-to-naked-eye patches to exist.)
16:21 mircea_popescu yes.
16:22 mircea_popescu i suspect graph theory may have a solution for us, but it is not clear to me how.
16:22 asciilifeform this is why the original genesis was such a painful affair (and why it was and remains important to READ how i did it)
16:24 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/01/venice-refugee-center-patrons-riot-and-take-hostages/ << Qntra - Venice Refugee Center Patrons Riot And Take Hostages
16:25 BingoBoingo lobbes: You had wikipedia in Grade School! Poor Child!
16:25 asciilifeform the entire point in using a differ in vtron at all (as opposed to signing ENTIRE body of work) is to make the work of the reader tractable.
16:26 asciilifeform a patch that has any significant 'cut-and-pasteology' -- tends to make it intractable again.
16:26 asciilifeform (if i cannot ~mechanically~ tell that the untouched parts are untouched -- they are, for all intents and purposes, touched)
16:28 mircea_popescu still, due to the fact that v allows attribution, the change can be digested over time.
16:28 asciilifeform theoretically.
16:28 asciilifeform in actual practice, gigantic turds take eons to fit in head.
16:28 asciilifeform as, e.g., trb itself.
16:28 mircea_popescu true.
16:28 asciilifeform (it remains to be seen if the thing had ever, or will ever, fit entirely in any head)
16:29 mircea_popescu still, the "frozen trb because networking" or "because badlt done block check" etc can't go on forever.
16:29 asciilifeform tru
16:29 asciilifeform though what i pictured is that trb can finally produce the motherfucking ~book~ and it will be possible to start rewrite...
↖
16:30 mircea_popescu and what i pictured were 72 cubits high, translucent, ageless, nonmenstruating and deliver pregnancy to term within the day.
16:30 lobbes BingoBoingo: aha. Yeah, I guess more towards high school. Luckily I was just old enough to still have been taught how to research using actual b00ks and/or libraries.
16:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: these: next!111
16:30 mircea_popescu right-o.
16:31 mircea_popescu meanwhile, http://68.media.tumblr.com/d643fbf482be283423336539830d4710/tumblr_oahu79jAGK1vyw3iyo1_1280.jpg
16:33 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: imho it is necessary to 'defile grandfather's pistol' in certain carefully-selected ways, but only if it can be done while making it clear that it was defiled in ~these but not other, unspoken~ ways
16:34 asciilifeform to steal from mircea_popescu's article on subj, 'get inseminated on purpose, rather than 'because hey, there was a party, and i like to drink''
~ 20 minutes ~
16:55 deedbot http://fr.anco.is/2017/removing-the-wallet-from-trb-first-thoughts << fr.anco.is - Removing the wallet from TRB, first thoughts
17:03 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595836 <<< my image is more like: "trb is this thing from which more and more is removed, until only the radioactive code consisting in ball of tightly packed hot wires which we proceed to put in a little box in which epoxy is poured, and is only interacted with as some black box"
17:03 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 21:29 asciilifeform: though what i pictured is that trb can finally produce the motherfucking ~book~ and it will be possible to start rewrite...
17:04 asciilifeform davout: thing is, there is no such thing as this 'hot core'
17:04 asciilifeform spittoon is in, imho, one strand.
17:06 asciilifeform asciilifeform's (and later again jurov's) utter failure to unravel the heap, at least, suggests this.
↖
17:07 asciilifeform this was, if anyone recalls, the reason i asked for the functional flow graph
17:07 asciilifeform to lean what ~actually depends~ on what.
17:07 asciilifeform so that the places to make all plausible cuts become apparentl
17:07 asciilifeform *apparent
17:08 asciilifeform (unfortunately a flow graph where every motherfucking line intersects 55 other lines, is NOT good for anything)
17:12 asciilifeform *learn
17:12 davout yet another obvious benefit of amputating the wallet, miner and everything that can pretty obviously done without
17:13 davout but i also get the other point, a lot of that complexity becomes apparent once one actually goes ahead and pops the hood
17:13 asciilifeform i historically refused to touch the miner, and will not encourage anyone to touch it, because neither i nor anyone i know is equipped to properly test the result.
17:14 asciilifeform (a result where there is ~no~ miner available, i exclude from consideration because it pisses on the R in 'trb')
17:14 asciilifeform wallet - sure.
17:15 asciilifeform now you ~could~ make the -- imho very tenuous -- argument that mining logic is ~implicitly~ present in the block verification logic.
17:16 asciilifeform but it is a stretch. and does not let you ignite a bitcoin overnight if transported to alpha centauri (or, more likely, earth-with-broken-mainnet)
↖
17:17 asciilifeform trb miner is mircea_popescu's 'fleet in being'
17:17 asciilifeform gotta be ready to roll on five minutes' notice if the old miners ALL go home SIMULTANEOUSLY.
17:18 asciilifeform incidentally, ben_vulpes -- what height are your 'solipsist nodes' up to nao?
17:18 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: i've been working on phf's recommendations of late
17:18 ben_vulpes so -- zero
17:19 ben_vulpes haven't made checkpoints configurable, so solipsist nodes won't even mine
↖
17:19 ben_vulpes unless i misunderstand, the project is truly blocked on making checkpoints configurable.
17:19 davout asciilifeform: i don't thing the argument that the block validation logic can be found in the block validation logic is tenuous
17:19 davout make the miner a separate bin
↖
17:20 ben_vulpes (fwiw i'm down to the last ghostly suggestion, which was to read in the hash as a bignum)
17:21 asciilifeform davout: aha, separate bin. but not 'today NO miner and MAYBE SOMEDAY a new miner'
17:21 asciilifeform no transformation of mud-todays into jam-tomorrows plox.
17:22 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: what means 'as a bignum' ?
17:23 asciilifeform i.e. as an object you can divide by 33 ?
17:23 asciilifeform why??
17:23 davout asciilifeform: i think it would be hard to make the argument that a separate binary sitting aside the node could hurt in any way
17:23 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: i misspeak, 'as an integer'
17:23 asciilifeform davout: could, theoretically, hurt, if it requires adding 100,000 lines of i/o glue logic
17:24 davout the miner does require the transactions being mined to be valid, so there's that
17:24 asciilifeform let's take the cuts as specified by mircea_popescu earlier.
17:24 asciilifeform they will require a -- quite complicated -- entirely new protocol
↖
17:24 asciilifeform for the components to speak to one another.
17:25 davout we might en up with a libbitcoinconsensus.a
17:25 ben_vulpes triggered
17:25 davout png
17:25 davout trollface.png
17:26 davout either way, imma head to bed, interdasted in comments re mah wallet cut piece
17:27 asciilifeform davout, ben_vulpes , et al : it is also tricky to properly rule out the situation where split-trb node behaves like a 'split-brain patient', and external observer gets contradictory answers from it to some possible question
17:28 asciilifeform (this is a certainty if the various components do not AT ALL TIMES agree)
17:29 davout pilot handbook 101: "if after landing you need to apply full throttle to get back to your parking spot, you probably forgot to lower the gear"
17:29 asciilifeform aahahahaha
17:30 asciilifeform davout: similar book i recently read -- claimed that 'gear retract on parking lot' accidents are still a regular thing
17:30 asciilifeform i gotta wonder why
17:31 asciilifeform gear button is right next to starter button, or wat.
17:31 davout yeah, i've heard some things like that too
17:32 davout in these case it appears the cause is often confusion with the flaps lever
17:32 davout *cases
17:32 asciilifeform lulzy
17:32 davout after you land you retract flaps
17:32 davout but obviously retracting gear isn't a good idea
17:32 asciilifeform i'd naively think that this would've been resolved in 1930s, if not earlier, just make the levers vastly different (shapes, or lengths, and feel, etc)
↖
17:32 davout i have nfi why some airplanes allow this
17:33 asciilifeform davout: didja ever weigh in on the rudder thread ?
17:33 davout asciilifeform: they *are* very different
17:33 ben_vulpes fuck levers, pressure on the wheels should engage hard interlock
17:33 asciilifeform (why do we still find pedals on ~all machines)
17:33 davout asciilifeform: no?
17:33 asciilifeform davout: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-30#1574899 << thread
17:33 a111 Logged on 2016-11-30 21:04 asciilifeform: i have here a b00k on piloting circa 1940, and already then author insists that rudder pedals are obsolete and have killed a thousand men
17:33 davout maybe i'll understand the answer to this mystery when i become retractable gear certified!
17:34 davout small thread is small
17:35 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: my current (wholly nonexpert) understanding is that airplane DELIBERATELY omits 'hard interlocks' wherever possible, on the principle that not-being-able-to-X-when-you-must is worse than can-X-when-you-mustn't
↖
17:35 davout well, you need rudder, how else are you going to, you know, pilot?
17:35 asciilifeform davout: e.g., 'ercoupe', had rudder, but linked to ailerons
17:35 asciilifeform so 0 pedals.
17:36 ben_vulpes i have only recently developed an interest in ice flugen mobiles
17:36 asciilifeform ben_vulpes had a 'trains' boyhood didn't he.
17:36 asciilifeform in 19th c!
17:37 trinque anecdotally I seem to recall my dad talking about using rudder in crosswinds on large aircraft
17:37 trinque ianap
17:38 davout trinque: yeah, i have nfi how i'd land anything in a xwind without rudder
17:38 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: sailboats, motorbots, cars, bicycles mostly
17:38 trinque right, not as if you can roll the aircraft when you're about to touch ground (intentionally!)
17:38 davout asciilifeform: i'll research this ercoupe thing, seems interdasting
17:38 ben_vulpes horses and women as opportunity presented
17:39 davout trinque: actually you *are* supposed to
17:39 asciilifeform davout: it was a (long-extinct) machine from the age of 'everybody will have an airplane'
17:39 asciilifeform davout: the place that made'em is not far from where i live, it was slowly demolished over decades
17:39 trinque davout: in a not wings horizontally level manner?
17:39 davout trinque: no
17:39 davout when landing in a crosswind you basically apply rudder during the approach so that your airplane flies towards the runway, but the nose pointing to the side
17:40 davout 'crab-like'
17:40 trinque yeh, what I was fumbling for
17:40 ben_vulpes note! this does not mean the wings are not horizontal
17:40 trinque isn't that yaw?
17:40 davout and when you are about to touchdown, you apply rudder to align the nose with the runway
17:40 davout but that causes the plane to drift
17:40 davout sideways
17:40 davout you apply roll to counter the drift
17:41 trinque yeah I thought that was called yaw
17:41 trinque it is
17:41 asciilifeform davout: are there any situations other than crosswind landings/takeoffs where you need yaw-without-roll ?
17:41 davout if the wind comes from the right you'll end up landing with right wheel first, then left wheel, then nose wheel
17:42 trinque oic
17:42 asciilifeform (and in fact, do those entirely ~demand~ yaw-without-roll?)
17:42 davout asciilifeform: yeah
17:42 davout motor effects
17:42 davout lemme check out how that's referred to in engrish
17:43 asciilifeform davout: i thought motor effect could only affect roll
17:43 asciilifeform (gyroscopic moment of the motor, but also differently-impacting stream from propeller on one wing vs other)
17:44 trinque easiest example that comes to mind would be losing an engine on a multi-engine plane
17:44 davout here ya go
17:44 davout http://wiki.flightgear.org/Understanding_Propeller_Torque_and_P-Factor#Propeller_torque_effect
17:44 davout asciilifeform: propeller torque is one thing
17:45 davout gyroscopic precession of the propeller when changing directions is yet another thing
17:45 * asciilifeform satisfied! will buy machine with rudder!
17:45 davout also trinque is right, when losing an engine on a multi-engine you need to apply rudder to compensate for the thrust differential
17:45 ben_vulpes yeah see when they start talking like this my flugenboner starts to droop
17:45 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: wai's that
17:46 asciilifeform most folxs' -- hardens
17:46 davout which is also why there's yet another minimum speed for a multi engine running on a single engine
17:46 ben_vulpes trained response to risky dynamics problems
17:46 davout below which the rudder loses sufficient authority to compensate for the asymmetric thrust
17:47 davout ben_vulpes: piloting when you're actually in the plane is an entirely different thing
17:47 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: i suspect that if i start to explore this risk manifold i will have trouble not ratcheting the risk back
17:47 davout basically "watch your airspeed, watch the fucking airspeed"
17:48 davout also "the ball goddammit"
17:48 ben_vulpes see http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=960_1477239016
17:48 asciilifeform davout: different thing from what? from piloting on grid paper and with pen? i'd imagine so!
17:48 davout asciilifeform: point is piloting a small plane there's just a few things to pay attention to constantly
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17:49 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: lulzy contrast of the solid 'hp oscilloscope' goodness of the console buttons, with the crapple turd
17:52 ben_vulpes amusing on so very many levels
17:56 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: it would be utterly nutso to consider an ode/fluids sim as a hashing function, right?
17:57 asciilifeform almost the very definition of terrible hashing function
17:57 asciilifeform because the transition between 'irreducibly complex' and 'braindamagedly simple' phase space is unknown.
17:58 ben_vulpes very similar inputs could, even over long runs, result in very similar outputs
17:58 asciilifeform in a hash for just about any application you want to always live in the former and never, ever in the latter.
17:58 ben_vulpes elaborate?
17:58 ben_vulpes or point me at something to read?
17:58 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: consider the things you actually want from a cryptographic hash
17:59 asciilifeform just take a piece of paper, and list'em
17:59 asciilifeform then list things you do ~not~ want
18:00 asciilifeform and if you want reading material, reread the thread where mircea_popescu suggested crypto using transcendental constants etc
18:01 asciilifeform (tldr -- a digital approximation of a complex process is 1) not ~the process itself~, noshit.jpg 2) not necessarily all that complex, in the chaos/avalanche sense, or in any way cryptologically hard)
18:02 ben_vulpes mhm
18:05 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: to take toy example: 'game of life' playing field state, with initial state S and move count M, naively might seem like good crypto
18:05 asciilifeform but if you actually try this, you will learn that it is not.
18:06 asciilifeform because 'life' automaton tends to settle into quiescent states (bunch of small oscillating 'critters', no real turmoil)
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18:06 ben_vulpes myup.
18:07 asciilifeform there is ~0 actual relationship between 'confusing to the naked eye' and 'crypto-hard'
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18:07 ben_vulpes b-but turbulence!
18:07 asciilifeform most schemes naively stemming from such confusion end up equivalent to electric version of invisible ink.
18:08 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: if you know how to get effect entirely analogous to gas turbulence in a purely electric machine, there are many folks who will clap, do say.
18:08 ben_vulpes i am no karman reincarnate with god's knowledge
18:09 asciilifeform and if you can achieve it in a ~discrete~ system, you can get wolfram to drink himself to death, by properly demonstrating 'cellular physics' (tm) (r) where he failed.
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18:09 asciilifeform all by itself it'd be a worthwhile thing, if only for this.
18:16 asciilifeform to go back to hashes, and if you for some reason eschew 'when hiring fortune-teller, hire the cheapest',
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18:16 asciilifeform i know of 0 uses for a 'hash' where the same ~input~ is not guaranteed to produce ~same output~
18:17 asciilifeform but i could think of one definitive improvement over traditional hashes: non-algebraic (see recent 'rsa padding' thread) tranform
18:17 asciilifeform *transform
18:17 asciilifeform essentially, anything where you cannot, in any practical computer, express the hash's reversal as an n-sat problem
18:18 asciilifeform all well-known hash algos, afaik, lack this property.
18:18 asciilifeform they are arithmetical, because the designers insisted that the hash be computable in fixed number of cpu cycles.
18:19 asciilifeform this is great from many pov but imposes own cost.
18:19 ben_vulpes why is 'fixed number of cpu cycles' a great thing?
18:19 asciilifeform because it is bounded
18:19 ben_vulpes wyrdmantis: again with the laptop messages
18:19 asciilifeform (and tends to be small)
18:20 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: a non-algebraic ('programmatic') hash algo opens the possibility of crafted cpu-ddos
18:20 asciilifeform esp. if the actual computation is unbounded
18:21 asciilifeform (recall one of the nails in the ethertardium coffin)
18:25 jurov http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595849 iirc the issue is pervasive use of std::map, which fucks with the heap like horny pig
18:25 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 22:06 asciilifeform: asciilifeform's (and later again jurov's) utter failure to unravel the heap, at least, suggests this.
18:25 asciilifeform aha
18:26 asciilifeform and not only of std::map in the abstract, but of the same set of maps everywhere in trb, simultaneously, and at the same time with the pestilential global locks
18:26 asciilifeform and there are no provisions for safely ~removing a tx~ from mempool, ever, at all
18:27 asciilifeform (every tx in memory relies on its inputs being present , and at all times becomes a threat to crash the process if one should turn out not to be there. ~all pointers potentially dangle . thing is as rotten as could be imagined.)
18:38 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/01/iraqi-government-violating-latest-opec-agreement-government-blames-kurds/ << Qntra - Iraqi Government Violating Latest OPEC Agreement, Government Blames Kurds
18:43 deedbot http://cascadianhacker.com/how-to-fuck-up-without-being-a-fuckup << CH - How to Fuck Up Without Being a Fuckup
~ 1 hours 24 minutes ~
20:07 BingoBoingo OMG ben_vulpes wrote on Step 9!
20:07 ben_vulpes ;)
20:07 BingoBoingo !~step9
20:07 jhvh1 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
~ 34 minutes ~
20:41 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595862 << this is a stronger argument than it appears. we may find ourselves in the position where we have to, if not "mine" in the current sense, say what mining should be. in no case can it be "oh, mining, not something we care about". about mining, about any other part.
20:41 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 22:16 asciilifeform: but it is a stretch. and does not let you ignite a bitcoin overnight if transported to alpha centauri (or, more likely, earth-with-broken-mainnet)
20:42 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595871 << in practice this is how it works, and has, for at least 3 years now.
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20:42 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 22:19 davout: make the miner a separate bin
20:43 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595883 << the only reason to even do it is if no protocol is created at all.
20:43 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 22:24 asciilifeform: they will require a -- quite complicated -- entirely new protocol
20:43 mircea_popescu the whole point is for them to NOT speak to one another.
20:46 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: how does txtron accept/reject without talking to blockchaintron?
20:46 asciilifeform what am i missing
20:46 mircea_popescu puts into queue. accepts nothing, rejects nothing.
20:47 asciilifeform who eats the queue then ?
20:47 mircea_popescu trb.b
20:47 asciilifeform so they talk! via the queue
20:48 asciilifeform (trb.b, presumably, polls..?)
20:48 mircea_popescu no. one just reads, the other just writes, at all points where they interact. no talking is contemplated, and if this is "a protocol" then it's already given.
20:49 asciilifeform what happens when evilpeer dumps a TB of liquishit into the queue?
20:49 mircea_popescu do you read the spec or just sit there and dream a little dream ?
20:49 asciilifeform i did
20:49 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595783
20:49 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 20:48 mircea_popescu: in particular N.B should be "older overwrites newer" style ring buffer. of particular concern are situations where the buffer is set shorter than the longest reorg, in which case the node will wedge. TRB.N not accepting blocks with index lower than highest of B.B is for sure not feasible. "how many behind" should be an operator knob.
20:49 mircea_popescu including that part ?
20:50 asciilifeform aha, incl that part.
20:50 mircea_popescu so then what happens ?
20:50 asciilifeform in the tx case, anybody can overwrite legit tx in your buffer by dumping liquishit in.
20:50 mircea_popescu there is no tx. you do not read. what is N.B ?
20:51 asciilifeform candidate-block receiver, neh?
20:51 mircea_popescu so then.
20:54 asciilifeform in the case of candidate-block and candidate-mempooltx queue receiver (from outside the walls), mircea_popescu proposes to throw out even the weak logic for banning obvious crapola that we have today in trb?
20:54 asciilifeform (banning would, as far as i can tell, require 2way comms b/w the modules)
20:55 asciilifeform and whatdoyoumean 'no tx', is the thing contemplated a wholly mempool-less node ?
20:56 * asciilifeform goes to reread mircea_popescu's scheme
20:57 mircea_popescu i don't think today's logic does anything ; and i don't expect carrying it forward is useful. spec does include room for trb.n to do some banning, including on the basis of passively exfiltrated data from trb.b. that a protocol for this purpose may later develop i don't dispute, but it's not included both because it's not needed and because it can't become a "dependency". it's not.
20:57 mircea_popescu and in other alt-universes, http://68.media.tumblr.com/29a57cee1f8350a5c981f7ec5d318221/tumblr_mqko9plKqo1r7dgcpo8_1280.png
20:58 mircea_popescu and no, not wholly mempool less. there is m.t. what it contains - we care not. when problems will arise, they will be solved without impacting on the core scheme.
20:58 mircea_popescu that being the fundamental point of separation in the first place.
20:59 mircea_popescu (the correct solving scheme is still as i said back when we were discussing mempools, to keep track of peers (yes, by ips) and score them by the fees they bring your mempool. with this change -- that is even implementable.)
21:01 asciilifeform while i like the 'diode' aspect of this scheme, i will say that my public nodes would fall down in about three seconds, and permanently, if the primitive autobanhammer of gaviniferously-symptomatic peers were to be switched off.
21:01 asciilifeform (confirmed, experimentally.)
21:03 asciilifeform perhaps if nothing could possibly land in the queues faster than it can be eaten, this would not be so.
21:03 mircea_popescu you don't have to switch it off ; carry it over.
21:03 mircea_popescu i have no idea how you maintain your mempool atm ; or if it is what you're talking about even, is it ?
21:04 asciilifeform stock trb mempool
21:04 mircea_popescu so then use that. as the spec says, m.t specifically left unspecified.
21:04 mircea_popescu this is what "trb.n inherits network code" means. let it inherit.
21:09 asciilifeform well the old code has ban(...) which instructs 'this datum was a malicious turd and i dun want no moar from that ip'
21:09 mircea_popescu and reads the blockchain to do that ?
21:09 asciilifeform in the case of verifying a block -- it does
21:10 mircea_popescu we were discussing txn and mempool.
21:10 asciilifeform in those, you also need blockchain
21:10 mircea_popescu then no wonder your node falls over.
21:11 asciilifeform (a tx can have valid form in all sense other than being a doublespend, mircea_popescu knows this)
21:11 mircea_popescu i do, but it is also insanity.
21:12 mircea_popescu you cvan not engage in an open ended "i will for all comers do the work of checking one cent txn against a 10 dollar blockchain".
21:12 asciilifeform it is physical reality, and ergo by definition no moar 'insane' than gravity. unless mircea_popescu offers a breakthrough where we can test doublespendity without keeping blockchain around at all
21:13 mircea_popescu to doublespend you have to MINE it. to accept something in mempool, does not mean it has become accepted in blockchain.
21:13 mircea_popescu something like "one txn accepted in mempool per hour per peer" is reasonable.
21:13 mircea_popescu how MUCH verification work i wish to do for the world - is my choice, not the world's.
21:13 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: here i gotta agree, the 'allcomers can get their tx candidates evaluated' is doomed
21:13 mircea_popescu right.
21:14 asciilifeform just like i can't go and offer a candidate tx to swift because i feel like it
21:14 mircea_popescu worked while it worked but on the long term "collegiallity" of this elk is unsustainable.
21:14 * asciilifeform is a bit more 'doomer' than mircea_popescu on this subj, and does not see a future for 'anyone can send packet to anyone' net in ~general~
21:15 mircea_popescu yes but there's at least a decade between these.
21:16 asciilifeform 1 tx / hr / peer will make for one hell of a turtle relay
21:16 mircea_popescu tough titties, get in people's wots/gossipds.
21:16 mircea_popescu this is a fine avenue of rebalancing the miner/node nonsense.
21:17 mircea_popescu (yes, yes, "prb nodes will outcompete". sure. and reddit/wikipedia/etc outcompete us, totally.)
21:17 asciilifeform seems to me like it might unduly empower miners.
21:17 mircea_popescu how do you reason ?
21:18 asciilifeform if being 1 hop closer to a miner now means an hour less avg. delay.
21:18 asciilifeform instead of a few min.
21:18 mircea_popescu davout your four main pieces are a b and c ?
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21:18 asciilifeform waiwat
21:18 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nobody forces you to keep the throttle in place for your friends.
21:19 asciilifeform how does your box know who are 'friends'
21:19 mircea_popescu so in my thinking it incentivizes proper behaviour.
21:19 mircea_popescu by ip. yes yes, i know i know.
21:19 asciilifeform you gotta have the crypto auth.
21:19 asciilifeform and RST-idiocy-proof pipe.
21:20 asciilifeform aite, we had thread, i won't repeat
21:20 mircea_popescu these are good-to-have, not dependencies. let the lizzard queen fuck with ips a while first.
21:20 asciilifeform tru
21:21 asciilifeform i like mircea_popescu's scheme, imho it should be written exactly like-so
21:21 mircea_popescu we'll see if we find someone to do it, nao.
21:22 mircea_popescu !!up PUMBLECHOOK
21:22 deedbot PUMBLECHOOK voiced for 30 minutes.
21:26 mircea_popescu (re the above discussion - one of the B.Ts may well be "cache of txns with unspent outputs" specifically to aid in mempool evaluation. but this is philosophy 102.)
21:26 mircea_popescu (re the above discussion - one of the B.Ts may well be "cache of txns with unspent outputs" specifically to aid in mempool evaluation. but this is philosophy 102.)
21:26 mircea_popescu doh.
21:37 mircea_popescu in other news wow Framedragger your log selection thing is immensely useful for eg leaving comments on davout 's site.
21:37 mircea_popescu who, apparently, still has his doubtsd about me, and moderation-queues mah comments!
21:42 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595903 << gas pumps for diesel look every year more like dildos, accidentally poured gasoline in diesel engine accidents still occur.
21:42 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 22:32 asciilifeform: i'd naively think that this would've been resolved in 1930s, if not earlier, just make the levers vastly different (shapes, or lengths, and feel, etc)
21:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in usa, the ~only way to achieve this 'feat' is to pour into jerrycan first
21:51 * asciilifeform often wondered why the things can't simply be made threaded, and with variant thread
21:51 mircea_popescu for srs.
21:52 mod6 it easy to put unleaded regular gas into a diesel, but not vice-versa. the diesal nozzles are too large for a standard gasoline tube.
21:52 asciilifeform '... and that was how we found that the average policeman is not so smart, but very strong' (from -- iirc -- one of mircea_popescu's articles)
21:52 mircea_popescu and in other news, girl preparing to weigh self, "if it shows me over what i started at ima jump out the window". me, equanimous "wouldn't it be better to jump out window if surprisingly light, than if surprisingly heavy ?'
21:54 mod6 know someone this happened to once, apparently diesel was shooting flames of unleaded out of the tailpile, while running like dog-shit (excessive knocking etc).
21:54 mod6 *tailpipe
21:55 asciilifeform (possibly davout might have some input) i recently read an american-flavoured thing re pilotage accidents, and it dwelled on 'jp in petrol tank' , insidious condition where the engine ~will~ start but tends to quit ~during takeoff~, guaranteed corpse
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21:56 asciilifeform they have clever nozzles now, but there are always mega-heroes who manage to fuel up with entirely wrong liquid
21:58 mod6 yeah, actually, now that I think about it, i was told that in this particular case I was talking about, the guy didn't even put in regular unleaded (87 octane), he put in like 110 octane racing fuel.
21:58 mod6 lol
21:58 mod6 i guess this took place at a refueling stop in the middle of the night.
21:59 mod6 asciilifeform: jp = jet fuel?
21:59 asciilifeform aha
21:59 mod6 is that the same as the JET-A1 or whatever I sometimes see on the side of tanks?
21:59 asciilifeform it
21:59 mod6 aha
22:00 asciilifeform (there are other variants sold, but mostly 'A' on most of the planet)
22:06 deedbot http://cascadianhacker.com/how-to-actually-learn-programming << CH - How to (actually) "learn programming"
22:14 mod6 ben_vulpes: fyi, second edition has the red cover, the first edition is the blue cover one.
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22:16 mircea_popescu mod6 theoretically cylinders blow.
22:16 mod6 yeah, can wreck the thing for sure.
22:19 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595914 << this is just about it ; the python 3 cancer hasn't eaten through most of that yet. at least afaik.
22:19 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 22:35 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes: my current (wholly nonexpert) understanding is that airplane DELIBERATELY omits 'hard interlocks' wherever possible, on the principle that not-being-able-to-X-when-you-must is worse than can-X-when-you-mustn't
22:30 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595972 << kinda where all those "great future everyone flies plane" threads always die, with mp saying "i wouldn't put that work in if the plane sucked my cock."
22:30 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 22:48 davout: asciilifeform: point is piloting a small plane there's just a few things to pay attention to constantly
22:30 asciilifeform d00d dun even drive cars!11
22:32 BingoBoingo Apparently all of a sudden "mesentery is new organ", Leonardo years ago
22:32 mircea_popescu aha
22:37 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595990 lies! https://niginsblog.wordpress.com/2016/03/07/new-spaceship-speed-in-conways-game-of-life/
22:37 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 23:06 asciilifeform: because 'life' automaton tends to settle into quiescent states (bunch of small oscillating 'critters', no real turmoil)
22:40 asciilifeform these and others are neato but for some reason ~never show up unless hand-built
22:40 asciilifeform rather like real-life spacecraft.
22:40 mircea_popescu mostly linked because of the epic announcement, "there may be bugs in gfind"
22:41 mircea_popescu DUDE BUT I THOUGHT MANY INTELLIGENT EYES MAKE BUGS SHALLOW
22:52 asciilifeform https://cp4space.wordpress.com/2016/05/02/is-craig-wright/ << small vintage lulgem from mircea_popescu's link
22:52 asciilifeform (linked mainly for the comments. seriously, wtf)
22:53 BingoBoingo https://i.sli.mg/zJE2z7.jpg << Hamplanetary destination for space ship. Also an eater.
22:55 asciilifeform herr doktor mengele could not even dream , of what welfare state creates 1,001 every day nao.
22:56 mircea_popescu now this is tru
22:57 BingoBoingo I think you mispelled "wellfed state"
23:00 trinque https://www.rt.com/usa/372609-public-decency-boston-law/ << ahahaha, hey mats, let it be known that you can jack it on the subway up there so long as nobody's "shocked" or "alarmed"
23:00 trinque The state’s highest court explained, “the detective was the only eyewitness who testified to the defendant's conduct” and that he was disgusted “after viewing the defendant's exposed penis, not for himself, but rather out of ‘concern’ for the women seated on the bench.”
23:01 mircea_popescu this has been good law for a century +
23:02 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-03#1595997 << now this!
23:02 a111 Logged on 2017-01-03 23:09 asciilifeform: and if you can achieve it in a ~discrete~ system, you can get wolfram to drink himself to death, by properly demonstrating 'cellular physics' (tm) (r) where he failed.
23:02 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all --currency eur
23:02 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCEUR last: 999.893604, vol: 8443.50362043 | BTC-E BTCEUR last: 984.02502, vol: 257.15036 | BTCChina BTCEUR last: 1043.716113, vol: 1914935.90380000 | Kraken BTCEUR last: 1003.108, vol: 8466.09555672 | Volume-weighted last average: 1043.33872246
23:06 BingoBoingo http://www.slackware.com/security/viewer.php?l=slackware-security&y=2016&m=slackware-security.567619
23:09 asciilifeform lel, 512b pgp key?!
23:10 BingoBoingo You know where to stuff it!
23:10 mircea_popescu iot ?
23:11 asciilifeform (btw, trinque et al, here's a bot command idea: #!k (for instance) takes url and looks for pgp keyblocks or sigs or any other pgptronic object from which a key bitness , fp, or other interesting attribute can be pgpdump'd, and prints same in log)
23:12 mircea_popescu how is it supposed to do this ?!
23:12 asciilifeform pgpdump -i
23:13 asciilifeform curl http://foo | pgpdump -i | .... to be 'precise'.
23:13 mircea_popescu this is so horribly stated. so what you want is, for trinque or you, these being the only "et al" curtrently keeping pgp data ; to implement a search through it by random string ?
23:14 asciilifeform nope
23:14 asciilifeform a 'this www has apparent pgp signature, let's see whose, and for the record', was the idea.
23:15 asciilifeform probably not all that useful unless part of archive bot.
23:16 mircea_popescu you want it to go through a www page, find all signature blocks, and identify it as a fingerprint then ?
23:16 asciilifeform and nobody needs to 'search by random string', phuctor eats fp.
23:16 mircea_popescu "this page contains signatures from x y z " with links to phuctor pages ?
23:16 asciilifeform aha
23:17 asciilifeform practical?
23:17 mircea_popescu you ~could say that~ you know. what you actually said was like, gosh jolly.
23:17 mircea_popescu yeah it's actually not even a bad idea.
23:17 mircea_popescu possibru shinohai feels like adding whistles to jhvh1 ?
23:22 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-04#1596139 << fixed, ty
23:22 a111 Logged on 2017-01-04 03:14 mod6: ben_vulpes: fyi, second edition has the red cover, the first edition is the blue cover one.
23:23 ben_vulpes these episode 2 crickets are unsettling, perhaps i need to write more things for people to disagree with
23:24 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: the blue-cover crapola thing is technically a different b00k
23:25 asciilifeform that s. peddled as a 'replacement' for 'applied crypto'
23:25 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: has libkez on tap?
23:26 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: it was 'cryptography engineering'
23:27 asciilifeform we had a thread.
23:27 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes wut is this virutal server ?
23:28 ben_vulpes typical aws digitalocean thingers
23:28 mircea_popescu like a virtual server ?
23:29 ben_vulpes ...
23:29 ben_vulpes k
23:29 ben_vulpes thanks
23:29 mircea_popescu that was fun
23:30 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: the ~1993 version is the original?
23:30 asciilifeform aha
23:30 ben_vulpes k ty
23:30 asciilifeform i actually like the crc encyclopaedia moar
23:31 mircea_popescu but anyway, this is actually a point - maintaining a stable irc connection is both informative and good preparation for the tasks ahead.
23:31 mircea_popescu precisely the "trivial" thus instructive sort of task
23:31 trinque filters out some power rangers right there
23:32 mircea_popescu also is the first stone of "well your computer doesn't actuallty work, does it" most normies may encounter.
23:33 mircea_popescu [- GLOBAL NOTICE - freenode itself not actually up to this standard. thank you.]
23:34 ben_vulpes heh
23:35 mircea_popescu but to please ben_vulpes : it may amuse you to learn that ask.fm put in a mitigation for my bot (ill designed, and fail to work) sometime on dec 30th. AND THEN apparently (accidentally ?) reverted it sometime jan 2nd.
23:35 ben_vulpes cute
23:35 mircea_popescu which i give 50-50 odds was just an accidental server update with old code.
23:35 ben_vulpes how do people accidentally old code
23:36 ben_vulpes i don't even programming and don't do that
23:36 mircea_popescu wasn;t there an automake for kubinetes or such ?
23:36 mircea_popescu anyway, i kind-of gave up documenting their downtime.
23:36 mircea_popescu daily occurence.
23:37 ben_vulpes bbl food
23:39 mircea_popescu fuck i put comment in wrong article.
23:43 hanbot it's a virutally harmless mistake
23:43 mircea_popescu lmao
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