#trilema | 2017-01-02

http://deedbot.org/bundle-446250.txt

~ 3 hours 1 minutes ~

10:18

and in other early morning news, http://68.media.tumblr.com/30d2c3fe596693e7a3fb95997a12ad0f/tumblr_obyslrVlsT1v64ymho1_1280.jpg

10:22

http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=molyneux << incidentally check out how popular this dood is with da ladies.

~ 19 minutes ~

10:41

!!up mnemnion

10:41

mnemnion voiced for 30 minutes.

10:42

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/33-ways-your-boyfriend-is-micro-cheating-and-totally_us_585996dde4b068764965b8a8 << in other lulz, micropenis microcheats!

~ 2 hours 16 minutes ~

12:59

https://i.imgur.com/BJg73FK.png #RealTalk

13:01

lol in other news, "a night's progress" : http://68.media.tumblr.com/79eb8dcbb8a6ec6befdf0d116fbc56ed/tumblr_o0w2oyJIGI1ugf63bo1_1280.jpg

13:06

random sorta-cs'y question: are there any os-level cache implementations which make use of clock sweep (or something more sophisticated), cf. just simple LRU? (reading about caching strategy in postgres and possible duplication of data blocks at postgres cache level + os cache level).

13:13

Framedragger: hard to have sophisticated cache algorithm when apps are black boxes, it usually backfires (there's very bad worst-case)

13:14

and some databases (afaik not postgres) instruct the OS to not cache data by using O_DIRECT flag

13:16

hm yes fair enough re. former. unknown what to do when process restarts, too, etc.

13:16

re. latter, yes postgres doesn't instruct, apparently it's efficient on bulk writes that way, as the os can use its own cache to optimize the write order etc..

13:19

(nice article and nice links for anyone interested, https://madusudanan.com/blog/understanding-postgres-caching-in-depth/ )

13:20

Framedragger in general the problem is present, caching on a different level than the application creates complex problems.

13:21

this is why cpu has its cache and disk has its cache and STILL eg autocomplete keeps its own cache.

13:21

rather than everyone just using the cache like it were a gpu

13:26

!!key Toaster_Struedel

13:26

http://wot.deedbot.org/D6F6E30F2328EAE8C15D93C77403A752BFD697DE.asc

13:27

trinque ^ ?

13:29

imma flip it back to the old way for now. I need to finish some things with that site generator. one sec.

13:29

kk

13:37

mircea_popescu: link works now

13:37

ty

13:37

a better temporary fix is to just have the command write the file if absent, going with that to keep permalinks

13:37

np

13:37

worx

13:41

mircea_popescu: ready at last for my eulora password

13:42

ah cool onesec

13:42

!!key pete_dushenski

13:42

http://wot.deedbot.org/E6625CC14638C4CA404694E9165749929F9A6BDD.asc

13:43

btw who manages the eulora wiki ? it's very well done and i might just suggest that the ubuntu instructions be updated slightly ('cs-forupload' instead of just 'cs')

13:44

also 'laocoon' (62.113.203.216) is down for maintenance until further notice. upgrading hardware.

13:44

pete_dushenski http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/ouYop/?raw=true

13:45

cheers

13:45

it might be jurov ? tis a community run project, feel free to edit yourself.

13:45

might as well

13:46

no, if you see some anonymmous webpage, it's not mine.

13:46

brb

13:47

I consistently provide contact info. I think mike_c has eulorum.org

13:48

mike_c-: ping

13:48

!#seen mike_c-

13:48

I haven't seen mike_c-

13:49

noted jurov

13:51

http://logs.minigame.bz/2015-06-05.log.html#t00:20:21 << this is how i ended up with the idea lol.

13:51

np

13:52

but i am well and truly at a loss, who owns it ? no idea. maybe lobbes ? i somehow du nthink it was mike_c-

13:54

eulora wiki ubuntu instructions updated :)

13:55

a nice.

13:55

the only thing in setting up eulora that i haven't figured out yet was where the foxybot code goes.

13:55

its built in with the latest version

13:55

phf

ben_vulpes: fyi http://btcbase.org/patches/ircbot-multiple-channels http://btcbase.org/patches/logbot-multiple-channels

13:55

reminded me to that old joke "Don't say anything. If you say, don't write. If you write, don't sign your name. If you sign, don't be surprised."

13:56

jurov aha!

13:56

mircea_popescu: latest foxybot1.3 ?

13:56

1.2

13:56

oh oh , the latest foxybot. hm.

13:56

eulora 1.2, foxybot 1.3

13:56

must be

13:56

*

mircea_popescu looks

13:57

mine are in ~/src/client/foxybot ; i expect unless specified otherwise you just put them in there

13:57

and recompile.

13:58

ah ok cool. will take a look this evening.

13:59

*

pete_dushenski got goosebumps when eulora 'came to life' late last night as it was first game he's ever compiled from source on linux box or otherwise.

14:00

ha! wd.

14:01

thanks! putting these kindergarten compsci classes and node set-up skills to use. slowly making progress!

14:01

cool deal.

14:02

it wasn't so long ago that 'computer' came with 'screen' for me, as per girls in that trilema piece.

14:02

lol

14:03

in other news, "In this article World Bank poverty estimates are used to systematically test the relationship between changes in poverty and exogenous changes in real domestic food prices. We uncover indicative evidence that increases in food prices are associated with reductions in poverty, not increases."

14:03

see ? inflation is good for poor people and ok for you !

14:05

in proper terms, "we conclusively show that once reality is replaced by propaganda, nominal increase in food prices as well as nominal decreases in poverty may be claimed to have occured simultaneously. such is the power of rejecting the cold equations in favour of other views that are more nurturing of the mental processes that are most important to us."

14:06

lol guess so eh

14:08

somewhere it will occur to someone that in a model where men have the run of the land, hunting for beasts to eat and fuck, an amassing of domesticated cattle in the shape of symbolic "goats" (which you can both eat and fuck, and in practice would be mixes of women, cows, whatever) will result in a very divergent approach : men hunt across the land for resources and women hunt across their backs for fleas.

14:08

and so "objective" and "subjective", solipsism and reality, eros and psyche, psychosis and neurosis bla bla bla.

14:09

i always have to laugh whenever some review writer says "objectively speaking... etc etc". dude, wtf are you on about ? did your parrot tell you to say that ? jeez louise this is science for the people is it.

14:11

esp. when discussing aesthetics. seriously.

~ 28 minutes ~

14:39

pete_dushenski: Remeber that while David is poor servant of Eros, Petrus is great servant of Priapus!

14:40

i thought david was the kid with the slingshot

14:41

interesting , blockr got retarded for more than day

14:44

pete_dushenski: Yeah, and a Petrus ended up owning that David too!

14:44

http://qntra.net/2017/01/the-story-of-2016-socialist-butthurt/ << Qntra - The Story Of 2016: Socialist Butthurt

~ 33 minutes ~

15:17

And their lives had become unmanageable http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4079616/Some-people-won-t-having-happy-new-year-Carnage-streets-Britain-revellers-2017-boozy-night-no-one-s-wrapping-warm.html

15:19

BingoBoingo: "the sit in" << they

15:20

also, hyphens are your friend

15:20

ty fxd, where hyphens?

15:22

same sentence. 'meme-like

15:23

ty

15:23

np at all

15:24

http://trilema.com/2016/first-eulora-hackathon/#comment-120215 << not that surprising, really

15:25

sad, sure. surprising, not so much.

15:26

i'm no hackathon expert (perhaps Framedragger or others can corroborate) but if i wanted eulora hackathon results i'd set up a meatspace booth, get red bull to sponsor, and invite teams.

15:27

without being snarky, i think one guideline would be "announce more than 0 days in advance" :)

15:28

(and according to .kr banks, have a few people sit at table and literally stare at teams, making notes. such conservative bank, hasn't changed them into robots yet)

15:28

^

15:32

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-02#1595160 << right! (well, some duplication is not bad in itself - os can be dumb about higher-level cache but may want something for optimising/aligning disk i/o and so on. but this sometimes leads to complexity it appears, and may be unwanted in the first place (e.g. in phuctor)...)

15:32

Logged on 2017-01-02 18:21 mircea_popescu: rather than everyone just using the cache like it were a gpu

15:35

(but then, duplication different cache layers != "general gpu cache for everyone yolo!1")

15:35

duplication across*

15:36

also, have a great 2017 everyone :)

15:37

cheers!

15:37

random film recommendation for weirdos: cannibal holocaust ("cannibal exploitation horror film")

15:48

*

Framedragger just learned of existence of "--show-session-key" in gnupg. "hehe"

15:49

"Display the session key used for one message. See --override-session-key for the counterpart of this option.

15:49

We think that Key Escrow is a Bad Thing; however the user should have the freedom to decide whether to go to prison or to reveal the content of one specific message without compromising all messages ever encrypted for one secret key. DON'T USE IT UNLESS YOU ARE REALLY FORCED TO DO SO."

15:50

(from https://www.foo.be/2016/12/OpenPGP-really-works )

15:53

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-02#1595221 << lol win.

15:53

Logged on 2017-01-02 19:39 BingoBoingo: pete_dushenski: Remeber that while David is poor servant of Eros, Petrus is great servant of Priapus!

16:00

pete_dushenski eh i'd much rather discuss teh comments there!

16:01

alright alright. i'll copynpaste it :P

16:02

cool, then i'ma wriote the reply to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-02#1595237 there too and that way Framedragger won't know what i said about his comment!

16:02

Logged on 2017-01-02 20:28 Framedragger: (and according to .kr banks, have a few people sit at table and literally stare at teams, making notes. such conservative bank, hasn't changed them into robots yet)

16:03

lolk

16:03

sneaky

16:10

http://trilema.com/2016/first-eulora-hackathon/#comment-120425

16:14

aanswer't.

16:18

kind of curious what does pete_dushenski consider as "results" in such a case: number of participants? the "atmosphere"?

16:19

fwiw i personally "shoulder surfed" as i hear it's called two diff people who tried their fucking best to do it. in the end managed as much as to get a command registered and to say hi world! but that was all. well over 30 hours of brow sweat.

16:19

it's hard, C i mean, in that it is nonsensical. nobody appreciates truly just how nonsensical it is (except eg naggum, he wrote about it) because nobody actually keeps slaves, in the proper sense of the term, and thus nobody gets to see an actual, balanced human mind interact with the ball of insanity.

16:20

all everyone ever sees are people 10+ years into the dementia. and the "sense" things make to them.

16:21

hm; do you mean they had it all nicely and well done in pseudo-code/whatever logical structure and THEN they just failed miserably to translate that to C code?

16:21

yes.

16:22

90% of my audible output was "your question can not be answered in that general form". tears were shed, of rage and frustration. towards the third day i recited from the molieben of st naggum, the part where he says c makes people lie, and there was THANK YOU! GOOD GOD!

16:23

"i read about the types, none make any sense, they just keep declaring, what the fuck is it and how should you know!"

16:24

(paraklesis in english, apparently).

16:24

lol; but yes, no sense there, not sure anybody claimed sense in C types

16:25

so what are people to do ?

16:26

Te blestem pe tine, incepatorul rautatilor si al hulei, capetenia impotrivirii si urzitorul vicleniei. Te blestem pe tine, cel aruncat din lumina cea de sus si surpat pentru mandrie in intunericul adancului. Te blestem pe tine si pe toata puterea cea cazuta ce a urmat vointa ta. Te blestem pe tine, duh necurat, cu Dumnezeu Savaot si cu toata oastea ingerilor lui Dumnezeu, Adonai, Eloi, Dumnezeul cel atotputernic; iesi si te d

16:26

eparteaza etcetera.

16:28

the way I see it is that they are basically constraints - of all sorts and not necessarily of some overall design/rationality/logical stuff; if you insist for some reason to do something in that environment, then you have to work within those constraints, as nonsensical as they might be

16:28

but arbitrary.

16:28

understand - most of the convention is opaque in a proper sense. merely discovering that {} must be preserved, for instance, took time.

16:29

"oh that's what those do." "yes." "but why." "nevermind"

16:31

what is it exactly they discovered the {} do?

16:32

that i can't answer for. but some kind of model as to why deleting inside curly braces works, but not outside they've formed.

16:33

mircea_popescu: back atcha.

16:34

diana_coman consider - there isn't a general statement of "what is it exactly {} do". this is already a fine and complete statement.

16:34

diana_coman: the "results" of "real hackathons" ? some lulz and some memories of "that one time" mostly.

16:34

pete_dushenski, aha, social coding at it's best, used to be called a party

16:35

which is why calling the open eulora bot coding competition FOR MEN ONLY "a hackathon" seems... odd.

16:35

for men only?

16:35

see mp's latest comment on the article

16:35

im pretty sure it was mostly womenz.

16:35

pete_dushenski dun confuse gender an' sex!

16:36

harder than it sounds!

16:36

A number of women make fine MEN in the model of Petrus.

16:36

lol

16:36

mircea_popescu, I don't think I basically get enough of what it was that was going on there to comment much further

16:36

diana_coman consider someone who has a perfectly functioning brain and no prior exposure to programming.

16:36

what do you answer when they ask "what do {} do" ?

16:37

they group together what is contained within

16:38

maybe {} is like a period

16:38

and by "perfectly functioning brain" i don't mean they're qualified to work the cash register. suppose one day the bishop of vad comes to you and asks you that. the man knows plenty of things, what do you say to him SO THAT YOU DO NOT LIE.

16:38

pete_dushenski that's the problem, right there. yes, maybe. why would someone want to talk t oyou when all you have to say are maybes.

16:39

right. which is why people don't want to talk to me and why i'm talking to you lot of bots!

16:39

mircea_popescu, ftr I saw and even experienced this sort of trouble but unrelated to C++ as such - related to *programming* in itself really, regardless of language

16:39

mkay.

16:40

tis not an easy problem. moreover it's not even clear to me why it exists in the first place.

16:40

first in 9th grade when first introduced to procedural programming; 2nd and even more clearly a few years later when I got into functional programming - it required a change of thinking simply, it wasn't natural in either case

16:40

god knows i can explain math in such a manner ; what the fuck is so special about algorithmics.

16:40

and btw there was no c, lol

16:40

if the same archbishop inquires as to why i poured cement the way i did i can answer without ado.

16:41

well, I answered what do {} do, not good?

16:41

diana_coman it's no good because they'll then say void main {void}

16:41

see, it's not a question of saying something which is in some context correct ; it is a question of saying something which while meaningful, is is no context false.

16:42

heh, I specifically avoided saying "group statements together" because I did not know how much/whether they knew about statements

16:42

nothing.

16:43

better to start from what an AST is, preferably in a language where levels of AST are delimited in the same manner always

16:43

this thing where things may or may not indicate hierarchy and you gotta know in advance sucks

16:44

aha.

16:44

myeah, that's actually how we started at uni pretty much

16:44

but it's a hackathon not a course in theoretical cs ; we're not at liberty to not write one line of code within the first six months ; we must start within five minutes. yes that which you say exists, but this different other thing also exists. why doesn't it ?

16:45

which is why my conclusion is rather that hackathons are actually impossible in this context.

16:45

computer programming in a practical sense doesn't flow logically from anything.

16:46

it's not of the nature of, we go for a walk, and now the flat turns into rolling hills and we are in a forest and the trail eventually takes us up to a mountain. nothing of the kind. it's that we go up to the water line, wherein we don the scuba gear, and enter an entirely new world.

16:46

one that does not, in itself, support life.

16:55

well, it started as a set of holes in punch-cards - not sure what life support is that likely to get to

16:55

why should it get to. nobody at the wheel, car goes where it pleases, horse shall graze as it might ?

16:56

of course the end result of reason's nap are monsters.

16:58

but yes, the thing V brings to light, slowly, and evidently painfully, is that the rot did not start within our lifetimes. there's almost a century of subjugation of sense for the sake of convenience, inaugurated like all insanity during the war and maintained hence. the standard of "make a statement about x" does not reduce to "here you go" "is it true ?" "well, at least in one case it is". properly speaking, there must be n

16:58

o cases where it is false. this is the wot model - to be signed it must not be false because if it is false then you get negrated don't you.

16:59

however it's not just that nobody "involved" in "development" of $modern-software package can't make a statement of any kind in this sense. it goes all the way back before the crays.

16:59

yep. other than a system built atop simple first principles (scheme or forth-a-tron) I don't see that a sensible approach to learning can be had.

17:00

funny that all the schmucks declaratively anti-racism and dedicated to you know, "unlocking human potential" aren't in the slightest preoccupied with doing anything in the vein of their declared interests.

17:00

student just gets dumped on an island, ends up maybe with some survival skills and the superstitions that come along with not being able to know what lurks in the night.

17:00

quite exactly that.

17:10

hanbot

<mircea_popescu> but i am well and truly at a loss, who owns it ? no idea. maybe lobbes ? i somehow du nthink it was mike_c- << i'm pretty sure it was his, yeah.

17:10

oh.

17:10

i guess prolly a good idea to make copies then, jic

17:10

hanbot

it's been recently fed to archive.is anyway

17:11

a cool then

17:18

Ah, the mike_c legacy. If it's good and no one remembers who made it, probably mike_c

17:19

that;s a point

17:24

and since i'm on a moldy tome kick, let's note down ܝܳܠܕܰܬ ܐܰܠܳܗܳܐ ie joldath allaho. in syriac. because yes, even as egypt was mostly christian in its recent history (just as all of the "arabic" middle east), allah exists in arabic as a corruption of a syriac notation of a greek interpretation of a hebrew name for god.

17:25

bologna elohim, salami alahu, whatevers.

~ 23 minutes ~

17:48

!~ticker --market all

17:48

BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 1017.77, vol: 8353.97054240 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 985.8, vol: 4668.17318 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 1021.8, vol: 22583.63331644 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 1063.58832, vol: 2083186.42100000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 1022.2, vol: 2279.22126022 | Volume-weighted last average: 1062.74725474

17:59

!~bcstats

17:59

17:59

!~ticker --market all --currency gbp

17:59

BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCGBP last: 823.041, vol: 8365.65497052 | BTC-E BTCGBP last: 798.28335, vol: 4665.00914 | BTCChina BTCGBP last: 858.176, vol: 2094352.86270000 | Kraken BTCGBP last: 832.677, vol: 31.50639144 | Volume-weighted last average: 857.903566512

18:00

parity in all fiatcurrency!

18:05

!~ticker --market all --currency eur

18:05

BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCEUR last: 964.614925, vol: 8353.01422420 | BTC-E BTCEUR last: 952.0, vol: 178.42179 | BTCChina BTCEUR last: 1008.09395, vol: 2092780.02860000 | Kraken BTCEUR last: 971.4, vol: 10489.0846288 | Volume-weighted last average: 1007.73497896

18:06

!~ticker --market all --currency rmb

18:06

BingoBoingo: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 7353.57, vol: 2093696.75350000 | Volume-weighted last average: 7353.57

~ 31 minutes ~

18:38

Party in the Parity

~ 43 minutes ~

19:22

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-02#1595266 << plox to reread naggum , this and the other pieces were about cpp

19:22

Logged on 2017-01-02 21:22 mircea_popescu: 90% of my audible output was "your question can not be answered in that general form". tears were shed, of rage and frustration. towards the third day i recited from the molieben of st naggum, the part where he says c makes people lie, and there was THANK YOU! GOOD GOD!

19:22

not c

19:23

(which is separate headache, such as to be left in a desert to die is quite different experience than to be lowered into pit of weevils)

19:25

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-02#1595276 << i am now picturing mircea_popescu's 'well-balanced being' asking 'why' of the controls of 'airbus'

19:25

Logged on 2017-01-02 21:29 mircea_popescu: "oh that's what those do." "yes." "but why." "nevermind"

19:26

(and if you think you can answer how the fuck , e.g., flaps, work, see the von karman parable!)

19:26

*

asciilifeform bbl

~ 34 minutes ~

20:01

ben_vulpes

phf: neat, thanks

20:09

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-02#1595293 << would you prefer ada's 'begin foo' / 'end foo' ?

20:09

Logged on 2017-01-02 21:36 mircea_popescu: what do you answer when they ask "what do {} do" ?

20:11

http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-02#1595305 << last iirc, the exact chemical mechanism of cement curing was not fully known

20:11

Logged on 2017-01-02 21:40 mircea_popescu: if the same archbishop inquires as to why i poured cement the way i did i can answer without ado.

20:13

so mircea_popescu with his cement mixer is just as 'dirty empiricist' as d00d who writes 'while (1) {.......}' without having written a c compiler and ability to explain what {} 'do' rigorously

20:19

misses the point entirely; the question is how to teach the thing

20:19

and when someone can be said to understand it

20:22

teach c machine as sane people were taught: 'here's some c, here's what compiler emitted , in asm, now say why'

20:22

and student knows asm because started there

20:23

one moment "nobody can fit c machine in head" and the next "anyone can c puny human!1!1!!"

20:23

lol

20:24

yes, one can memorize a mapping between some phenomena and their effects, and this does not amount to "understands computers"

20:24

I thought asciilifeform had a www on this

20:25

and incidentally, didn't jurov do something with eulora and lisp/scheme ?

20:25

trinque: it is why you make the student write, eventually, the compiler

20:25

oh sure, no argument here. but then go and rewrite a compatible gcc

20:25

trinque: iirc he stuffed ecl in there

20:26

ah

~ 1 hours 55 minutes ~

22:21

trinque: mircea_popescu had a thing a while ago about towers, of different heights.

22:24

what do you think is empiricist about teh cement ?

22:25

and yes, they have. entertained whole flight with discussion of vehicle steering. where "vehicle" ( {bus, ship, submarine, airplane, ..., satellite}

22:28

anyway - the whole discussion was re c++ ; i use c to denote it, owing to the factual situation that there's no other c in practice ; which yes is a sly comment in the vein of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-24#1590234 but then what are you gonna do.

22:28

Logged on 2016-12-24 17:45 asciilifeform: this 'works' is a pestilence and is largely why clueful greybeards from the meat world , e.g., mircea_popescu , unzip and piss on programmers simply for sport

~ 37 minutes ~

23:05

and in today's unicode : ⁂

23:17

✠.

23:18

wasn';t that supposed to be replaced with an inflatable matress or a scooba goggle or something ?

23:18