Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-04-06 | 2016-04-08 → ↓
00:00 ben_vulpes heee
00:12 BingoBoingo http://qntra.net/2016/04/open-sourced-vulnerability-database-closes-cites-more-people-taking-their-free-goods-than-giving-them-free-goods/
00:26 ben_vulpes > a decision has been made
00:26 ben_vulpes man, wouldn't it be neat if CBlockIndex weren't actually a "tree-shaped structure"?
00:27 ben_vulpes or if comments stayed in sync with code or something?
00:37 mircea_popescu kik yup phf
~ 6 hours 54 minutes ~
07:31 davout best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 20 btc
07:32 davout also hanbot -> http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-first-progress-report#comment-8435
07:33 davout tl;dr: FROM_UNIXTIME() yields localized strings, not GMT
07:46 davout best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 26 btc
07:57 davout best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 30 btc
08:07 davout best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 33 btc
08:16 PeterL is bidding almost over?
08:20 davout best bid for the bitbet assets so far: 34 btc
08:20 davout PeterL: keeps going until one hour elapses after the last bid
08:23 PeterL ben_vulpes would you hire a guy who sent you this? http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/e6b34c9c-a218-4740-8f68-2048b244fdae/?raw=true
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08:32 shinohai https://www.helpnetsecurity.com/2016/04/06/hackingteams-global-export-license-revoked/ <<< top keks
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08:38 mircea_popescu davout> tl;dr: FROM_UNIXTIME() yields localized strings, not GMT <<< time implementation is dumb. see also
08:39 mircea_popescu hm. hey phf : http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22localize+that%22 vs http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1189592
08:39 mircea_popescu and for that matter, what's it supposed to be ? http://btcbase.org/?date=06-07-2015#1189592 ? http://btcbase.org/log/?date=06-07-2015#1189592 ?
08:40 mircea_popescu davout wow, taking off huh ?
08:40 davout meanwhile, the bitbet auction best bid is at 41 btc
08:42 mircea_popescu PeterL sounds like the usual cocky bullshit infantile idiots with a useless degree and too much reddit exposure spout.
08:42 mircea_popescu could make an ok diner cook, i spose.
08:42 mircea_popescu with the right antidepressant medication.
08:42 PeterL but isn't it the same kinda stuff ALF is always complaining about?
08:43 mircea_popescu and the inept robber and the underpaid policeman also engage in "the same kinda stuff"
08:48 davout meanwhile, the bitbet auction best bid is at 50 btc, aka one full Bitcoin block reward
08:49 asciilifeform woah
08:50 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447772 << news at never'o'clock - 'microshit's license revoked'
08:51 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447771 << hire to what? sweep floor ?
08:52 asciilifeform related lulz: http://archive.is/IMAJu
08:52 asciilifeform 'More than 40% of Americans who borrowed from the government’s main student-loan program aren’t making payments or are behind on more than $200 billion owed, raising worries that millions of them may never repay.'
08:52 asciilifeform '... The picture has improved slightly from a year earlier, when the nonpayment rate was 46%, but that progress largely reflected a surge in Americans entering a program for distressed borrowers to lower their payments.'
08:52 asciilifeform and, best of all,
08:52 asciilifeform 'The Education Department has assembled a “behavioral sciences unit” to study the psychology of borrowers and why they don’t repay. “We obviously have not cracked that nut but we want to keep working on it,” said Ted Mitchell, the Education Department’s undersecretary. He said many defaulted borrowers dropped out of school and are underemployed.'
08:56 davout je viens de mettre une enchère à 60 btc sur bitbet
08:56 davout oops, wrong chan
08:57 davout The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 60 btc
09:03 PeterL asciilifeform> (it is, i think, imitating the rear engine block of 12 cyl 'ferrari' with its air cooled motor) << I always thought it was supposed to provide some shade, keep inside car from heating up in the sun?
09:03 mircea_popescu heh
09:04 mircea_popescu let's study why people who live off the dole don't build the empire that was.
09:04 mircea_popescu o noes, i wonder. why could it be.
09:04 mircea_popescu davout fancy that!
09:08 mircea_popescu http://fr.anco.is/2016/so-long-paymium#comment-8391 << interesting point, actually.
09:08 mircea_popescu anyone cares enough to see if whoever's left at paymium wants to do a qntra interview ?
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09:10 mircea_popescu o wow look at that, pete - znort - davout three way free for all! lol.
09:24 mircea_popescu PeterL that also.
09:26 davout The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 63.1337 btc
09:28 mircea_popescu im so fucking curious what are the limits of the various parties involved and if any whale lurks lol.
09:29 mircea_popescu but all in all this is SO MUCH like eulora auctions i can't fucking believe.
09:29 mircea_popescu is it past the end ? what's the cutoff, 1 hr from 10:28 art ?
09:31 davout The bitbet auction best bid now stands at 70 btc
09:31 davout mircea_popescu: one hour after the bid war has stopped basically
09:32 mircea_popescu right so technically speaking, time of last bid + 1 hr, and last bid is at 10:33 ie right now
09:33 davout 10:33 ar time
09:33 mircea_popescu ye
09:36 mircea_popescu asciilifeform> 'More than 40% of Americans who borrowed from the government’s main student-loan program aren’t making payments << incidentally... i own a coupla of these.
09:37 mircea_popescu they'll make any payments sometime after microsoft-loses-license-o'clock.
09:42 mircea_popescu o wow kakobrekla bid 33 even.
~ 35 minutes ~
10:17 davout still 12 minutes left to outbid pete_dushenski
10:26 davout 3 minutes left !
10:28 davout 60 seconds
10:29 davout AAAAAAAND IT'S SOLD !
10:31 mircea_popescu nice! who got it, pete ?
10:31 danielpbarron ;;later tell pete_dushenski congrats on winning bitbet!
10:31 gribble The operation succeeded.
10:31 mircea_popescu yeah good going.
10:31 davout wait
10:31 danielpbarron btw his clearsigned thing got mangled by your site, davout ; easy fix to confirm is add two hyphens to each group of hyphens
10:31 davout znort bid 71
10:32 davout danielpbarron: i usually add <pre> tags
10:32 davout imma check the precise timestamps
10:32 danielpbarron oh whoops
10:32 danielpbarron i didn't refresh
10:32 danielpbarron ;; later tell pete_dushenski whoops, false alarm!
10:32 gribble The operation succeeded.
10:32 davout danielpbarron: yeah, i'm adding them myself since wp is retarded
10:33 mircea_popescu hmm seems there's a 71 ?
10:33 mircea_popescu ah yea
10:34 PeterL cutting it close to the deadline, did the bid get in on time?
10:34 * mircea_popescu pictures various groups frantically trying to gather more liquidity while the +1 btc bit bought them a little time etc
10:35 danielpbarron hm, that latest bid doesn't seem to be signed properly
10:35 danielpbarron not that you said signing is required
10:35 mircea_popescu lmao.
10:36 PeterL semms the comment system is magling the pgp-isms inline signaling
10:36 danielpbarron well i was able to fix pete's myself and see that it verified, but the same trick didn't work on znort's
10:36 davout so the bid is valid
10:36 davout http://dpaste.com/2R5EZ6J.txt
10:36 davout see ^
10:36 PeterL such drama!
10:37 danielpbarron so is the auction over or did that extend it?
10:37 davout also i fell of chair when i discovered wp_comments table has two fields comment_date_gmt, and comment_date
10:37 davout danielpbarron: it's not over
10:37 danielpbarron oh ok so my congrats wasn't so retarded
10:38 davout danielpbarron: it's *not* over
10:38 davout the sig is valid once i add <pre>s
10:38 danielpbarron right, i thought maybe znort had made the bid an hour ago and it was he who won
10:39 * danielpbarron is notoriously bad at auction times
10:48 mircea_popescu lively times.
11:00 davout half an hour left to take home bbet
11:00 davout if anyone cares i'm done bidding
11:00 davout OR MAYBE NOT :D
11:01 davout everyone's my sockpuppet except pete who's being milked for the shareholders
11:01 mircea_popescu wait, wut
11:01 asciilifeform is wotless rando still in first place ?
11:01 davout just kidding
11:01 davout asciilifeform: dude is in wot
11:02 davout http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/znort987/
11:02 asciilifeform davout: so is decimation, what of it
11:02 davout he's not wotless that's all
11:02 PeterL I forget, what did decimation do wrong?
11:02 davout $gettrust znort987
11:03 mircea_popescu PeterL you think anyone here enumerates badness ?
11:03 mircea_popescu there isn't any air for the whole "oh i did nothing wrong" contribution.
11:03 deedbot L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
11:03 davout deedbot dead?
11:03 davout $gettrust deedbot znort987
11:03 deedbot L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
11:03 PeterL meh, just wondering, I guess I can search through logs
11:04 asciilifeform PeterL: he was this fella whom hitler hired to waste our time for ~2y
11:04 asciilifeform didn't even deny it with any serious vigour when confronted.
11:04 PeterL aha
11:05 davout looks like pete is done bidding
11:05 davout this znort fellow doesn't show up when grepping my logpile
11:05 mircea_popescu mine either.
11:06 asciilifeform hence rando
11:06 davout l'argent n'a pas d'odeur
11:06 davout pecunia non olet
11:08 mircea_popescu wasn't he asking for "the logs" or somesuch ?
11:08 asciilifeform he was!
11:09 davout where ?
11:09 mircea_popescu i dunno on your site somewhere.
11:09 asciilifeform in one of the signed bids.
11:09 mircea_popescu it's pretty lulzy, bitbet never actually kept logs.
11:09 asciilifeform http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-first-progress-report#comment-8398
11:09 asciilifeform 'Although this is not a requirement, and assuming he has kept a copy, I would also appreciate
11:09 asciilifeform if Matic could, as a matter of courtesy, provide the complete logs for the site.
11:09 asciilifeform '
11:10 davout aha, i misunderstood, thought he asked pointers to the forum's logs
11:10 asciilifeform can anyone suggest a reason why an honest man might ask for such a thing ?
11:10 davout aaaaand pete is back in the race with a 72 btc bid
11:11 PeterL mircea_popescu mpex faq still points to #bitcoin-assets
11:14 mircea_popescu ah yeah it;s getting fixed eventually.
11:15 gernika asciilifeform: aqcuirers of web sites typically want all sorts of metrics about the site that might be in the logs.
11:15 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i dunno, www world is enamoured with "metrics" and whatnot
11:15 mircea_popescu word.
11:15 asciilifeform hm ok
11:20 davout aaaaand we're at 73
11:21 davout guess imma make myself some tea, this isn't going to be resolved today at this rate
11:21 mircea_popescu lol.
11:22 mircea_popescu i have a trilema article all ready for when this finally happened, went to bed expecting to publish it this morn... no dice...
11:22 * asciilifeform feels like complete idiot for having had notions of buying
11:23 mircea_popescu why ?
11:24 PeterL asciilifeform maybe you just took the wrong strategy, should have waited until the end to go from .001 to 9 btc, scare everybody else off
11:25 mircea_popescu in any case he held top bid for a longer interval than the eventual winner is likely to :D
11:25 mircea_popescu see alfie, metrics. they make any reality more palatable.
11:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it still tastes like rusty nailz
11:41 asciilifeform and at any rate, 9 was my top bid because... that was all the coinz i had.
~ 34 minutes ~
12:16 mircea_popescu makes sense.
12:16 davout aaand pete_dushenski takes the lead with a 74 btc bid
12:16 mircea_popescu i just checked lol.
12:20 mircea_popescu so is the guy znort or znor ?
12:22 shinohai And znort counters with 75 ).0
12:24 phf exciting
12:26 mircea_popescu so i installed chromium to check it out.
12:26 mircea_popescu holy shit this thing is inept.
12:27 mircea_popescu shares a bar for url and search ? "click here to log what you type in url bar which we now call omnibar" ? there's no way to see cookies, all you can do is "obliterate" items, and limited to "from the past...." so you can't actually purge the shitbag ?
12:27 mircea_popescu who the fuck ever said chromium is usable ?
12:28 mircea_popescu popups to translate pages "not in the languages i speak" ? wtf does it know what languages i speak
12:28 phf mircea_popescu: you've not looked at "modern" browsers in a while
12:28 mircea_popescu oh, don't tell me, i could "save setings online and access them from any browser"
12:28 mircea_popescu wtf is wrong with people.
12:28 mircea_popescu phf bout five years.
12:29 mircea_popescu "continue rtunning background apps when chromium is closed" thing takes the cake. nigga, say wut ?!
12:29 phf yeah, that's about how long it's been since you could get a decent browser behavior. i think that's when firefox switched from "general purpose xul renderer" to "modern browser"
12:29 mircea_popescu whats that even mean.
12:34 mircea_popescu "the web" as a sort of google-run itunes store ? in the grand tradition of the bbs archive ?
12:44 mircea_popescu shinohai any bets on who wins in the end ? :D
12:46 mircea_popescu 81!
12:49 davout and why's pete_dushenski not around?
12:49 mircea_popescu ya srs.
12:49 davout fucking casual
12:49 mircea_popescu lol. werd.
12:54 phf betting 74btc from his iphone at a brunch or something
12:58 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: there ARE NO sane graphical wwwtrons
12:58 asciilifeform 'chromium' was, last i knew, the ~least~ braindamaged
12:58 asciilifeform but this is not saying much.
13:01 mircea_popescu i don't see how it could possibly qualify.
13:02 PeterL what would you use instead?
13:02 asciilifeform ^
13:02 mircea_popescu instead of what ?
13:03 asciilifeform i ~won't~ use firefox, for instance.
13:03 PeterL instead of chromium?
13:03 asciilifeform it is a steaming megatonnne of shit.
13:03 mircea_popescu i dunnoi, im not that into gfx browsers.
13:03 PeterL firefox used to be the best, now it just feels slow and clunky when I try to use it
13:03 mircea_popescu atm trying a thing called "seamonkey"
13:03 asciilifeform PeterL: it leaked memory from day1
13:03 PeterL aha
13:04 PeterL has the leak gotten bigger with time?
13:05 trinque meanwhile chromium's got "native client"
13:06 trinque because who doesn't want to run binary blobs in a web page?
13:07 trinque google reinvents activex, is so totally not msft of 2010s
13:08 mircea_popescu heh
13:09 jurov acc. to my hands-on experience, haskell's problem is not the cpu
13:09 jurov but that it took the "machine with unlimited memory" abstraction and took it to extreme
13:10 asciilifeform jurov: unlimited memory, instantaneous movement of data, magical i/o...
13:10 asciilifeform motherfucking MONADS
13:10 jurov but making it split work between cores is much easier
13:11 asciilifeform at the cost of doing 25x moar wurk total.
13:11 jurov than to get it not to hog memory by filling it with lazy comuptation thunks
13:12 jurov i had to mark almost *everything* by "yes compute this now, not leave it to later"
13:13 asciilifeform jurov: ml (predecessor of haskell) is sorta like haskell but without some of the more egregious mental illnesses
13:13 asciilifeform (e.g., no laziness)
13:14 mircea_popescu honestly a proper modern fortran would prolly be worth the time to make. this specifically means upgrading it more towards derive than towards haskell
13:15 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: how is a 'towards Derive' a fortran ?!
13:15 asciilifeform fortran has no redeeming value, period
13:15 mircea_popescu recall what our dispute (of sorts) re ada ended up resolving as ? "hey man - it may pretend it's not like c - but it's like c".
13:16 asciilifeform for fucks sake it isn't a c
13:16 mircea_popescu there's fundamentally two ways to approach computing : as an engineer and as a mathematician.
13:16 asciilifeform unless abused egregiously
13:16 mircea_popescu there's some shoddy solutions for the first. chiefly, c. people don't like them, but it is also possibly the case that they've gotten as close as possible.
13:16 asciilifeform can use EXCLUSIVELY safe arrays, can AVOID ENTIRELY pointers. ergo not 'a c'
13:16 mircea_popescu meanwhile, for the latter, there's... r ?
13:16 asciilifeform qe'fucking'd
13:16 mircea_popescu wouldja let go of that and look where i'm saying!
13:17 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: for the latter, common lisp.
13:17 asciilifeform (or, if space-constrained, scheme.)
13:17 mircea_popescu so i don't have to point out to you that yes it is, "even" "mod" etc.
13:17 asciilifeform why do you need the infix claptrap ?
13:17 asciilifeform mircea_popescu reads 3 pages of ada examples and spews nonsense re same
13:18 asciilifeform srsly, consider reading the rationale ?
13:18 mircea_popescu mk, we have to [re]do that discussion in depth, i guess.
13:18 asciilifeform the 'even' thing was not a built in op !
13:18 asciilifeform it was an ~example~ somebody wrote.
13:18 mircea_popescu how about mod ? how about > ?
13:18 phf alf is deeply infatuated at the moment with ada, so you should wait a few months :p
13:19 asciilifeform phf: actually i don't much enjoy ada
13:19 asciilifeform i just don't see ANY practical alternative to it
13:19 mircea_popescu "mod is not definable here because hey, abstract types. nevermind, > is defined, fuck abstract6 types".
13:19 mircea_popescu it's a c.
13:19 mircea_popescu the criteria YOU use for c-ness is not unversal.
13:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: possibly say what you think of as 'a c'
13:19 asciilifeform this would be helpful
13:19 phf asciilifeform: well, same way as no particular alternatives were seen to tinyscheme few months ago
13:19 asciilifeform phf: afaik there still are none!
13:20 asciilifeform show me one!
13:20 mircea_popescu " people don't like them, but it is also possibly the case that they've gotten as close as possible." <<< we're in exact agreement, here. no alternative known, and not likely possible.
13:20 mircea_popescu but that doesn't change the fucking fact!
13:20 asciilifeform ~which~ fact
13:23 mircea_popescu an engineering machine is one where you define bitcoin max coins as it's defined, and you end up with a max equal to 20999999.9769 btc.
13:23 phf asciilifeform: recall that i spent probably most time here on tinyscheme going as far as writing swank integration and unreleased bignums, i'm saying that you go through phases of "this is how we solve bitcoin". i grok the value of ada, and i grok the value of scheme, but neither are alternative-less. in fact with the amount of skill available, simply hacking on btc consistently we would've been further along
13:23 mircea_popescu a math machine is one where you define bitcoin max coins and the sum works properly and the series converges to 21mn
13:24 mircea_popescu so this is what i mean by "it's a c" : whatever the fuck you do, it's still going to be an ugly hack where you "can't define this" but nevertheless define THAT, which is just as broken.
13:24 mircea_popescu it's true that haskell tries and splendidly fails at being not-this.
13:24 mircea_popescu what's that do for anyone.
13:26 mircea_popescu asciilifeform dja grok what i'm talking about ?
13:27 davout aaaand pete_dushenski is at 85
13:27 asciilifeform phf: ENTIRELY different applications. tinyscheme was suggested SPECIFICALLY for embedding in large cpp program with ~tiny~ loc budget
13:28 asciilifeform NOT for safety-critical software
13:28 asciilifeform which - is is my belief - must NOT garbagecollect
13:28 asciilifeform ever.
13:28 asciilifeform and i am NOT interested in further hacking on cpp turd.
13:28 asciilifeform except to the purpose of SHRINKING same.
13:28 mircea_popescu why's this guy so emotional. yo!
13:28 asciilifeform <+mircea_popescu> so this is what i mean by "it's a c" : whatever the
13:28 asciilifeform fuck you do, it's still going to be an ugly hack where
13:28 asciilifeform you "can't define this" but nevertheless define THAT,
13:28 * deedbot hands you a broomstick.
13:28 * deedbot hands you a broomstick.
13:28 * deedbot hands you a broomstick.
13:29 asciilifeform ^ false
13:29 mircea_popescu eh ?
13:29 asciilifeform CAN define.
13:29 asciilifeform just gotta use BRAIN.
13:30 mircea_popescu how are you going to define a sorting rule for a type you don't know yet.
13:30 asciilifeform by knowing it ?
13:30 mircea_popescu so then are you saying ada shouldn't allow either mod or > ?
13:30 mircea_popescu ie, that the thing as-is is broken, and should be fixed, but other than that the idea is ok ?
13:31 asciilifeform what i'm saying is that operating on machine integers when you really mean something quite else, is braindamaged
13:31 asciilifeform use machine integers when they fit.
13:31 mircea_popescu this is not germane to the discussion.
13:31 asciilifeform point being that i can define, e.g., a 48-bit mantissa and 11-bit exponent, and USE THIS and ada will behave sanely.
13:31 asciilifeform and place the bits CPU-independently.
13:31 mircea_popescu also not germane to the discussion.
13:32 asciilifeform ...?
13:32 mircea_popescu aite brb, ima state this moar formally.
13:34 mircea_popescu the problem is this : in ada manual it is said, "So we see that the predicate in the subtype Even cannot be a static predicate because the operator mod is not permitted with the current instance. But mod could be used in an inner static expression." ; it is further said "and, in addition, a call of a Boolean logical operator and, or, xor, not whose operands are such static predicate expressions, and, a static predicate expres
13:34 mircea_popescu sion in parentheses."
13:34 mircea_popescu to the question "why did they not define EVEN correctly, eschewing this problem they perceive with mod" you answer that " ada is a civilized lang like commonlisp and there is NOT a presumption that integers are machine words !". This objection, if accepted as the correct response, ALSO invalidates using, say, XOR, and for the same reason.
13:35 mircea_popescu the fundamental problem here being, obviously enough, that the FORMALISM used to describe math for and in computers is shit. and yes, on that shitty basis you will never have math, but an engineering-useful hack.
13:35 mircea_popescu so yes, i can understand WHY you'd like it, think you need it, see it as best or better.
13:35 asciilifeform this much cannot be escaped.
13:35 mircea_popescu but all this ~fundamentally c discussion~ which is EXACTLY what it is,
13:35 mircea_popescu has no bearing on the problem that hey, math is still not represented, and some people'd like it to be.
13:35 asciilifeform i'm still waiting to hear what is 'fundamentally c'
13:35 mircea_popescu this!
13:35 mircea_popescu this "hey, it doesn't work, sign here"
13:36 asciilifeform thus far it sounds like 'why wash hands after shitting, there are microbes everywhere'
13:36 mircea_popescu no, it sounds like until the day you can machine-represent an irrational quality without rounding, you're lying to yourself about having washed anything.
13:36 asciilifeform to me, c MEANS buffer overflows and idiot type casts, and pointers.
13:36 mircea_popescu so then : this is c.
13:36 mircea_popescu yeah well, we're different people.
13:36 asciilifeform if you want rational numeric tower (as mircea_popescu describes above) you are condemned to lisp.
13:36 mircea_popescu and this is why it goes all the way down to fortran. the unresolved problems are actually very deep.
13:36 asciilifeform with all of the costs.
13:37 asciilifeform fortran is quintessentially a c
13:37 asciilifeform but with braindamaged syntax.
13:37 mircea_popescu maybe miserable example, in retrospect.
13:37 phf or apl
13:37 asciilifeform (btw anyone who pines for fortran, need not search long, it is on your box right now, in gcc)
13:37 mircea_popescu i picked it as a point because of the "abstract number" thing, ie, redefine 4.
13:37 asciilifeform redefining 4 worked as a strings parser trick
13:37 mircea_popescu (that is in practice an equivalent of the mantissa trick, it allows you to get out of all sorts of problems)
13:38 asciilifeform not because it had any general concept of number.
13:38 mircea_popescu yeah well. my theoretically-useful example failed the test of practice.
13:38 asciilifeform the precise handling of bits is, afaik, unique to ada and commonlisp
13:38 asciilifeform where i can specify EXACTLY how the bits lay down
13:39 asciilifeform as illustrated in yesterday's link
13:41 mircea_popescu but in the end, i say this : the difference between 20999999.9769 and 21000000.0000 is the unpayable change. point of fact remains that we can't escape this situation where we draw one thing, and the machine pops up another thing.
13:41 mircea_popescu and the problem is not, apparently, resolvable by fixing the machines. even if you had ideal machines, they'd still haveto halve blocks, and the results would still conceivably be... this.
13:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: easy, just don't use the idiot ieee float
↖
13:41 asciilifeform use sufficient bits for the representation of the WHOLE range.
13:41 asciilifeform SOLVED
13:42 mircea_popescu i don't think you understand.
13:42 mircea_popescu satoshis are integers. they are not floats.
13:42 asciilifeform so then ?
13:42 mircea_popescu problem persists.
13:42 asciilifeform from where comes this imaginary problem, i dun see it
13:42 mircea_popescu nothing imaginary about it, it's factual. the sum total of all satoshi in existence once the bitcoin ran its course will not be 21mn, but 131k satoshi less.
13:43 asciilifeform so you represent it as a quotient.
13:43 asciilifeform this is called 'rational arithmetic'
13:43 mircea_popescu there is no way to represent "all the numbers between 1 and 2" in a finite space.
13:43 asciilifeform why ALL the numbers ?
13:43 jurov mircea_popescu: there is, using ranges
13:44 asciilifeform represent the ones you can actually produce.
13:44 mircea_popescu jurov ranges are a sort of abstraction unavailable to computers.
13:44 asciilifeform satan help you if you are actually in need of 'reals'
13:44 asciilifeform they don't EXIST in engineering.
13:44 asciilifeform never did.
13:44 mircea_popescu it is, in places such as ada, "must use contiguity" the EXACT equivalent of "my ai program thinks because the procedure is called <<understanding>>"
13:44 asciilifeform nope.
13:44 mircea_popescu there is no such thing as contiguity or ranges that machines can grok.
13:45 asciilifeform the possible values of a byte ~are~ contiguous.
13:45 phf i don't understand why the point mircea_popescu would be so controversial among compscis here, it's sort of the whole point of numerical analysis
13:45 mircea_popescu and for that matter, among even numbers 2 - 8 is as much of a range as 1-4 is among natural numbers.
13:45 mircea_popescu phf me either.
13:45 phf alf keeps saying that there are localized solutions to various classes of numerical problems
13:45 jurov mircea_popescu: there's "unum" numeric system that does support ranges, and is improved replacement of ieee floats
13:45 phf mp keeps saying that you don't have a way to solve it as an abstract
13:45 mircea_popescu it's well established for ~3 centuries now, i kinda feel like leibniz already.
13:45 asciilifeform you define the field, and work in it
13:45 phf which is entirely true, this is like intro to von neumann 101
13:46 asciilifeform why is this a painful concept ?
13:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you can't define jack shit for a cpu without actually lying somewhere about what you did. is the problem.
13:46 jurov btw, i doubt continuum can be grokked by humas, either
13:46 jurov *humans
13:47 mircea_popescu maybe not.
13:47 jurov all we have is some deryp prrof that "we think of something that we don't know how to map to N"
13:47 phf it's a philosophical discussion, and mp, not being a programmer, is realizing that ada or c or .. is not actually it from where he stands, doesn't mean can't be used, just not magick.
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13:47 asciilifeform machine is not magical, no.
13:48 mircea_popescu let's work a simple example. suppose the case is that your machine is required to behave coherently with the rule that " among even numbers 2 - 8 is as much of a range as 1-4 is among natural numbers". the MOMENT your solution to this was "simple, just take $i*2", you have in fact c'd it.
13:48 asciilifeform but it IS possible to make abstraction that does not leak until you run out of memory.
13:48 mircea_popescu phf worse that that, utterly undermines the fundamental reason against many things we supposedly argue against fundamentally.
13:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform in your terms : it IS NOT possible to make abstraction that does not leak until [condition about machine and only machine]. ALL the abstractions you make WILL leak once you run out of BRAIN.
13:49 phf mircea_popescu: fwiw a lot of vlsi research in the 70s and 80s was about that, how do we make bedrock a lot less engineery, but that all died with microcomputer revolution(sic)
13:50 asciilifeform when you run out of brain, all bets are off.
13:50 mircea_popescu basically, all the architecture systems architects have managed yet to produce is the equivalent of "we need 10.1k builders - 100 to build and 10k to hold up the walls once we're done".
↖ ↖
13:50 mircea_popescu this, if sad, is an insecapable fact of the trade.
13:50 mircea_popescu phf aha.
13:51 mircea_popescu i agree the crisis may only be in my head, but in point of fact i'm getting a whole paradigm reallignment thing, slightly queasy atm.
13:51 asciilifeform the one and only sane fact is that we are stuck with CPU designed when ram was $50/kB.
13:51 jurov isn't this parallel with old greeks thinking "all numbers are rational".. till they found out they can't?
13:51 asciilifeform *sad fact
13:51 mircea_popescu quite paralel.
13:52 phf except opposite? all the math, until you find out that immediately available reality is finite
13:53 asciilifeform not only finite, but discrete.
13:53 mircea_popescu phf the greeks notably thought they can build things, because they know "the actual value of pi"
13:53 asciilifeform the very first thing you learn of a computer, 'this thing has N states, yes, it is a large N, but N is an INTEGER'
13:53 mircea_popescu except the larger the things they tried to build, the worse it got. but then they fixed it. because, as alf the greek beedog says, "it IS possioble to make wall that won't leak!!11"|
13:54 mircea_popescu so yea, i would say this is very much equivalent. we CAN'T actually make computer systems. and every time we try to make a larger one, we're stuck re-calculating a sort of "pi"
13:54 mircea_popescu about which the only thing that can be rightly said is that - it will crash the next larger system.
13:54 asciilifeform this is directly 'why wash hands, sanitation doesn't exist.'
13:54 mircea_popescu asciilifeform note that i am proposing no action.
13:54 asciilifeform but it is the perfect and in fact traditional excuse for inaction.
13:55 mircea_popescu when i say "therefore - we should all eat an onion" you can bring that obhection
14:01 mircea_popescu or to put it another way : the reason software houses denegerate into makework facilities is much more fundamental than any sort of policy. in point of fact, a numeric computer of the sort we're using is NOT useful in either logic or math but as a shorhand for an actual logician or mathematician that takes the abortive nonsense the machine spits out, and enchants it into actual usable truth.
14:02 mircea_popescu and there's no way to specify him out of the machine or vice-versa. for reasons that perhaps go all the way to godel
14:02 mircea_popescu (and yes, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447493
14:04 mircea_popescu this'd make the "march lords in a wot - take your fief and guard it" naive approach to date actually very well grounded both factually and now philosophically ; and also offer a ready explanation of "why all this shit everywhere!"
14:04 asciilifeform it remains possible to write proggy that behaves - demonstrably - correctly for ALL electrically-possible inputs.
14:05 mircea_popescu yes. but it remains impossible for this proggy to be useful in the abstract :)
14:05 asciilifeform what ~isn't~ possible, per godel, is to arrive at this using brute idiocy
14:05 phf (that's one of the reasons i thought one of the more effective ways of organizing computer human interaction is have an equivalent of dune mentat backed by a computer, i.e. an advisor to decision makers who performs computation and analysis. something like that existed at the height of apl, and i know a handful of now old apl-ers who sat on boards and were responsible almost exclusively for "running the numbers")
14:05 asciilifeform yes, idiots want this for phreee, without having to UNDERSTAND what they did.
14:05 asciilifeform phf: this remains the only practical thing.
14:05 asciilifeform anywhere.
14:05 mircea_popescu so it does. for reasons better understood now, at least by me.
14:05 asciilifeform it is, i think, how mircea_popescu uses bitcoin, for instance.
14:06 mircea_popescu incidentally, this is exactly how the trade houses used to work,
14:06 phf in which case the kind of machines that the mentats are backed by require very particular characteristics, e.g. power above "novice usability" etc. so lisp machines and apl machines
14:06 asciilifeform think of a ship's telegraph.
14:06 mircea_popescu before the "mentats" got into depression, heavy drinking and asscrack-cracksnorting.
14:06 asciilifeform captain did not turn knobs on the steam machine himself!
14:06 asciilifeform phf: it is my intention to bring this back, full bore.
14:07 asciilifeform to the mentat - the mentat's
14:07 asciilifeform to caesar - caesar's (tm) etc.
14:07 mircea_popescu cesar, the guy whose name became an office
14:07 mircea_popescu even in countries far distant in time and space, that couldn't rightly spell it./
14:08 asciilifeform aha.
14:10 mircea_popescu in short, and to sum up : there may never exist such a thing as the "general purpose computer"
14:10 phf the person that i was a [big bank] vendor with is actually doing that right now. a trained apl-er and mathematician, having spent few years interacting with [big bank] decision makers now consults on a handshake basis for companies that need a problem solved, but don't care if it comes with a pretty windows gui
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14:13 phf of course, general purpose computer was always a device that high cast professional would sit in front in order to do computations, augmented by external systems or additional special purpose interchangeable boards. at least that was a pretty shared vision from engelbard to symbolics before the microcomputer
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14:13 mircea_popescu im thinking it was actually a delusion, driven by peculiar circumstance that was both exceptional and unlikely to repeat.
14:13 phf yes :/
14:14 mircea_popescu much of the same substance as rms' "oh, all things belong to all people", ie, lazy reductionism.
14:14 mircea_popescu but hey, welfare works for as long it works, so does this.
14:15 phf well, it was post-war boomers, left leaning hippie intelligentsia who grep up on asimov and such, in a country awash with free money, all that euro gold
14:15 phf culture that percolated into mass media through star trek federation and such
14:15 mircea_popescu i am left without a solid basis to protest the use of magic numbers in code ;/
14:24 mircea_popescu but at least the whole "technology offers no solution for human problems" intuition now has much better footing in fact.
14:26 mircea_popescu anyway. the forever-bitcoin, ready to be buried under the sea or w/e, is not happening. because : "<mircea_popescu> how are you going to define a sorting rule for a type you don't know yet. <asciilifeform> by knowing it ?" is actually inescapable.
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14:27 mircea_popescu btw phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447752 is actuallyt trivially checked, i have the logs of when it dc'd.
14:27 mircea_popescu lesseee.
14:28 phf i feel like i have some code laying around to do comparison, but won't have wandwidth for a bit
14:28 phf *wandwidth
14:29 mircea_popescu Nov 27 03:56:48 * assbot has quit (Remote host closed the connection)
14:29 mircea_popescu Nov 27 03:57:31 <mod6> ;;bc,stats
14:29 mircea_popescu Nov 27 03:58:53 * assbot (~assbot@unaffiliated/kakobrekla/bot/assbot) has joined #bitcoin-assets
14:29 phf oh fair
14:30 phf about 2 minutes round time, yeah that's what i'm getting just doing an aggressive reconnect. note that there's possibly a lack of log visibility few seconds before it "quit"
14:31 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2014-11-27#936365 << missing
14:31 mircea_popescu confirmed.
14:31 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1448178 << poppycock.
14:32 mircea_popescu $up idioter
14:32 deedbot idioter voiced for 30 minutes.
14:32 mircea_popescu tis a dream alf. a dream!
14:33 mircea_popescu http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-first-progress-report#comment-8471 << so it seems the winner is znort guy, 86 btc bid.
14:33 mircea_popescu ;;bc,stats
14:33 gribble Current Blocks: 406197 | Current Difficulty: 1.668515132827772E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 407231 | Next Difficulty In: 1034 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 3 hours, 8 minutes, and 41 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
14:33 asciilifeform program that behaves sanely for all time so long as the iron holds up, is a reality. i write'em.
14:34 mircea_popescu asciilifeform browser ?
14:34 phf so doing awk through my logs, there's almost 10k lines "missing"
14:34 mircea_popescu this is WHY your "fits in head", btw. well justified cover for the "on the basis of the pi we know, the largest house that can stand is 11 feet tall"
14:35 asciilifeform if you could kill the shitstack, incl gpu, yes - even browser.
14:35 mircea_popescu phf some of that could be unresolved netsplits ?
14:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aha!
14:35 idioter hello. i made a withdrawal on coinbr.com from mpex about 4 days ago. i have been told i need to talk to mircea popescu about it.
14:35 mircea_popescu idioter yeah loads of btc moving since mpex sale. hold tight, you'll get it.
14:38 idioter is there any approximate information about when the withdrawals will be made?
14:38 mircea_popescu i'd expect today/tomorrow.
14:38 mircea_popescu but mostly, today.
14:41 idioter o.k. thank you
~ 32 minutes ~
15:13 pete_dushenski since 5:30am onwards, my goodness what an eventful day
15:14 pete_dushenski see stan, even kulaks set wake-up alarms sometimes.
15:17 mircea_popescu lol i guess you're gonna buy a new car with the btc thus saved ?
15:17 asciilifeform l0lwut
15:18 asciilifeform ah he lost
15:18 pete_dushenski mircea_popescu: something like that
15:18 mircea_popescu anyway, re earlier discussion, i guess it'd be worth belabouring the point that nothing therein contained is an argument against using ada. it's still a great technical solution, for bounds checking, for other reasons, it's still a great practical solution, for native linkability with c object code, for other reasons. same stands for scheme, still best option for a scripting language for bitcoind.
15:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: re thread, see also earlier threadz re 'impedance matching'
15:19 mircea_popescu impedance yea
15:20 asciilifeform as in 'why using 19 bit integer is 25x slower than 16'
15:20 asciilifeform the concept pervades physics.
15:20 mircea_popescu "why is no insect larger than a breadbox"
15:20 asciilifeform well that's more euclidean geometric (surface/volume)
15:21 mircea_popescu (contrary to what noob scientists may think, "a breadbox" is neither arbitrary nor undefined in that sentence)
15:21 asciilifeform this'd be more of a 'why is ear shaped like-so'
15:21 shinohai Thanks for making my day entertaining anyway pete_dushenski o/
15:21 mircea_popescu asciilifeform geometry doesn't really matter until physics decides d^x is a factor :D
15:22 pete_dushenski shinohai: yw!
15:22 pete_dushenski ;;later tell davout don't scare-excite me like that next time! (wait, what next time?) also, i wanted to show up here, but couldn't quite meditate and irc atst
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15:22 gribble The operation succeeded.
~ 50 minutes ~
16:13 asciilifeform ;;later tell mod6 http://zhu-qy.blogspot.com/2012/08/adatutor.html
16:13 gribble The operation succeeded.
16:13 asciilifeform ^ and anyone else
16:13 asciilifeform spiffy resource.
16:25 mircea_popescu such first and only comment.
16:26 asciilifeform classic homework idler
16:26 asciilifeform quite familiar species to regular readers of 'stack overflow' and similar.
16:26 mircea_popescu "Ada.Text_IO is a "package" that comes with Ada. (In Ada 83, the package name is just Text_IO, and for compatibility, Ada 95 also accepts the shorter name.) We'll learn more about packages later."
16:26 mircea_popescu such win.
~ 1 hours 2 minutes ~
17:29 deedbot- [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] That time I let outright ownership of BitBet slip through my fingers. - http://www.contravex.com/2016/04/07/that-time-i-let-outright-ownership-of-bitbet-slip-through-my-fingers/
17:42 pete_dushenski ^updated. realised i'd left the calculated p/e in months rather than the standard years.
17:43 mircea_popescu well technically it started 0.0001 0.0002
17:45 pete_dushenski aha. was speaking to two other points in s.bbet's history however : peak and present
17:45 mircea_popescu the auction
17:45 mircea_popescu danielpbarron and thestringpuller also bid
17:46 pete_dushenski o sorry that, left those out because unsigned
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17:49 mircea_popescu ah thats a point
17:56 pete_dushenski heh fr.anco.is shows pingbacks in 'recent comments'. i'll take the free advertising.
17:57 phf gg
18:02 asciilifeform pete_dushenski: http://www.contravex.com/2016/04/07/that-time-i-let-outright-ownership-of-bitbet-slip-through-my-fingers/#comment-43089
18:02 BingoBoingo ;;later tell davout delete xmlrpc.php from your wordpress install and you will be 95% of the way to securing your blawg
↖ ↖
18:02 gribble The operation succeeded.
18:05 pete_dushenski asciilifeform: http://www.contravex.com/2016/04/07/that-time-i-let-outright-ownership-of-bitbet-slip-through-my-fingers/#comment-43091
18:05 pete_dushenski mircea_popescu: http://www.contravex.com/2016/04/07/that-time-i-let-outright-ownership-of-bitbet-slip-through-my-fingers/#comment-43090
18:06 asciilifeform pete_dushenski: mine was signed..
18:06 pete_dushenski thus, yours was the first bid
18:06 pete_dushenski at 9 btc
18:06 pete_dushenski there were no signed bids before that
18:07 asciilifeform hm looks like.
18:07 phf so i don't read hackernews or reddit, they are mentioned here a lot though, so i decided to check if a sale of bitcoin company for 86BTC (damn) is going to get mentioned anywhere. nope. nada.
18:09 asciilifeform mega-unsurprise.
18:10 asciilifeform no paulgraham catamites or phoundation scum involved - ergo no mention.
18:15 asciilifeform in other 'news', http://users.cis.fiu.edu/~weiss/ada.html << useful data structures stuff
18:15 asciilifeform mod6 et al ^
18:17 mircea_popescu phf they mostly get mentioned derisively, tho. it's a sort of templeos/timecube/whatever, they got their alt-reality, sticking to it, nothing happens in it, etc.
18:17 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what did templos ever do to you!111
18:18 mircea_popescu weirdo guy going on about god something or the other ?
18:18 asciilifeform with motherfucking sane orthogonal persistence!1
18:19 mircea_popescu so you like templeos because it has persistence and graham because, apparently, gavin doesn't have to work for a living.
18:19 mircea_popescu you're a man with an open heart, what.
18:20 asciilifeform 1ofthesethings is not like theotherz!11 (tm) (r)
18:20 pete_dushenski phf: if the sale of a bitcoin company for 250k btc didn't get mentioned, a measly 86 btc sale doesn't stand much chance of crossing the lips of the peeple
18:20 asciilifeform 1ofthesethingz doesn't belong!1
18:20 mircea_popescu "it wasn't a real company because we didn't count for shit in the sale"
18:21 mircea_popescu you know, sorta like how "russia is not real country because putin doesn't invite obama over"
18:21 asciilifeform precisely that way.
18:21 asciilifeform or, even more so, 'ghadafi is not a real sovereign because he doesn't come to davos'
18:22 mircea_popescu "and his nurses are hawt"
18:22 phf top /r/bitcoin post is about some guy for bought bitcoin for $20 that he forgot about, now has $800k. this is like The Sun style bullshit "found million dollars in gradma attick"
18:22 mircea_popescu but it's precisely what it is.
18:22 asciilifeform phf: it is also handy waterfall legend
18:22 asciilifeform 'who is selling 800k of coin? not usg!111 you hatefact-peddling nazi. it's this bloke in his attic'
18:27 asciilifeform http://www.findlayw.plus.com/KDF9/emulation/emulator.html << irrelevant but very interesting imho.
18:27 asciilifeform mod6 et al ^
18:28 asciilifeform (example of large ada application)
18:29 asciilifeform incidentally, very pertinent to earlier thread,
18:30 asciilifeform because the kdf9 had ~weird~ (by modern standards) data types, e.g., 96-bit mantissa, etc.
18:30 asciilifeform and these are emulated, pretty elegantly.
18:30 mircea_popescu in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/7721937b94021017b390613747b70b10/tumblr_o0f40swxzv1tk9udjo1_1280.jpg
18:31 asciilifeform 48-bit integers...
18:31 asciilifeform 6-bit chars.
18:32 mircea_popescu you know, thinking about it... what exactly is the rationale even of the concept of "int" ?
18:32 mircea_popescu it's a cheap hack to get things cached through "registers", sure.
18:32 mircea_popescu so ?
18:32 mircea_popescu cpu should have proper cache ; wtf is a "register" even in 2016.
18:32 mircea_popescu there is ~no reason to use the c representation or notion of number at all.
18:33 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: do you recall the 1-bit cpu thread ?
18:33 asciilifeform i turned one up !
18:33 mircea_popescu aha.
18:33 asciilifeform a month or 2 ago
18:33 asciilifeform it existed.
18:33 asciilifeform registers as long as you like, on a whim.
18:33 mircea_popescu it's not directly clear the notion of bit is even relevant
18:33 mircea_popescu aha!
18:33 asciilifeform (you can trivially bit-serial add/subtract, but not mult/div unless by powers of the base)
18:35 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: you gotta pick some quantum of info for the logic to operate on.
18:35 asciilifeform (personally i favour the... trit)
18:35 asciilifeform but otherwise registers are a necessary evil, a teaspoon-sized bucket is possible but generally not wanted
18:36 mircea_popescu i'm unpersuaded. yes the breadbox is neither arbitrary nor undefined in the bug discussion. here however, no such benefit. there is no "size".
18:36 asciilifeform i dug out the 1-bit cpu because i have a weakness for exotic archs that might be amenable to optical or otherwise 'this handful of switching elements' incarnation.
↖
18:37 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: bit-serial arithmetic is slow. and bit-serial storage is slow.
18:37 asciilifeform the use of registers was the original parallelization, if you will.
18:38 asciilifeform ('let the n bits add at once' etc)
18:38 mircea_popescu in entirely unrelated but omfg i can't believe this - cascadia dwelling derpy mother of slavegirl that wants to think of self as "fiber artist" but otherwise crochets like any old woman since time immemorial, landed what to her appears as a very good deal. she sells her stuff in a senior citizen center gift shop. for a 15% comission. to understand each other : she provides the merchandise. she provides the sales workforce. sh
18:38 mircea_popescu e takes home 15 cents out of a dollar in receipts.
18:38 mircea_popescu i'm in awe of what ustardia can do to people.
18:38 asciilifeform ^ apple app store !11
18:39 asciilifeform or any dead tree publisher
18:39 asciilifeform (where in fact author is lucky to see 3-5%)
18:39 mircea_popescu dude... what happened to full price for the stock + full wage for me selling it + benefits.
18:39 mircea_popescu fucking unions won.
18:39 mircea_popescu totally.
18:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no i know the history of how it ended up in. i'm just saying, it really is pretty stupid, useless and wtf already.
18:40 asciilifeform it is classic app store - 'don't like it? go sell on the street, keep 100% of the pennies you get'
18:41 asciilifeform the folks who carved up and own the whole fucking universe, are responsible for this.
18:41 asciilifeform which is why i fundamentally cannot hate rms, say
18:41 asciilifeform any fly in their soup is a friend of mine.
18:41 asciilifeform the more poisonous - the better.
18:42 mircea_popescu "the folks" you speak of are wholly imagined.
18:42 asciilifeform recall the lab robot thread ?
18:42 mircea_popescu like wizard of oz.
18:42 asciilifeform the owners are not imagined.
18:42 asciilifeform every sidewalk tile i step on has owner.
18:42 mircea_popescu yeah, they are. again : wizard of oz.
18:42 mircea_popescu nobody there.
18:42 mircea_popescu nothing you can possibly touch in a day of trying has an owner. nothing.
18:43 mircea_popescu it's mortgaged, hypotecated, securitized, sold, bought and transfered. nothing belongs to anyone or anything.
18:43 mircea_popescu you think the situation is peculiar to gold ? it is not.
18:43 asciilifeform i suspect even my arse has owner, somewhere in a filing cabinet some parasite has title to it.
18:43 mircea_popescu pfff.
18:43 mircea_popescu nonsense.
18:44 asciilifeform ah i see what mircea_popescu meant re gold etc.
18:44 asciilifeform this, yes.
18:44 mircea_popescu yeah.
18:44 asciilifeform but my point was that folks-who-definitely-aren't-me own the whole lot.
18:44 mircea_popescu so... no. no folks. no anything. just a snake of pressed shit eating its tail and wondering why the process is lossy.
18:44 asciilifeform like in the 'pioneers land' trilema article.
18:44 asciilifeform all carved up.
18:45 mircea_popescu this isn't a point, this is a psychogenic bit of nonsense.
18:46 mircea_popescu a similar cognitive process would be to say : a) i don't fuck bricks ; b) another exists ; c) therefore, another fucks bricks.
18:46 * asciilifeform sees where mircea_popescu is going.
18:46 mircea_popescu and ftr, the woman would make 10x to 100x more selling on street.
18:46 asciilifeform it is a lulzy reversal, actually, normally it is i who 'none of these apparent X are true X'
18:47 mircea_popescu da fuck, most buskers make more than her by a fat margin.
18:47 asciilifeform busker != old woman selling sweaters
18:47 asciilifeform busker is a very active, in your face thing
18:47 mircea_popescu which is the problem here. even when it works, the "appstore" didn't work for the rational reason, but for the irrational one.
18:47 mircea_popescu as evidenced to me and for my needs by the plain fact that even when the actual rational explanation is no longer applicable,
18:47 mircea_popescu the behaviour continues.
18:48 mircea_popescu these people are, basically, very dedicated cultists. they WANT a CERTAIN SOMETHING to be how things work. and will disregard and ignore anything and everything else. because they're not, fundamentally, opressed. they're, fundamentally, nazis.
18:48 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> i'm in awe of what ustardia can do to people. << PUBLISHING!!!
18:48 hanbot mircea_popescu it's possible something like that is the cheaper option for a certain sort of person in a certain sort of context
18:49 hanbot particularly when old age enters into this.
18:49 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: didja have in ro the old folks holding up pictures of stalin ?
18:49 mircea_popescu it is not possible, no.
18:49 asciilifeform in '90s
18:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aha. quite.
18:49 asciilifeform so - them!
18:49 asciilifeform right here they are, i imagine, holding up reagan
18:49 hanbot the initiative and work involved in the actual sales is rarely something an old woman can accomplish
18:49 asciilifeform or if not yet, will soon.
18:49 mircea_popescu hanbot but she has to do the sales as it is!
18:50 hanbot oh, seriously?
18:50 mircea_popescu the only thing she can't do is, construct the mental infrastructure of pretense she subscribes to.
18:50 hanbot i thought it's some sort of leave yer shit in our kiosk and we'll sell it sorta deal
18:50 mircea_popescu much like byzantine peasant couldn't construct the orthodox delusion ; much like alf teh bee dog can't construct washington.
18:50 mircea_popescu yet there they are, mesmerized contributors.
18:51 mircea_popescu hanbot no, she physically mans the kiosk. like the job someone would be normally hired to do, and get a wage.
18:51 mircea_popescu except she doesn't.
18:55 asciilifeform ok now ~that's~ bizarre.
18:55 BingoBoingo So, I drove by well over a million dollars in ruined construction equipment this morning.
18:56 BingoBoingo Apparently some asshole dug into a 10 inch natural gas pipe
19:00 BingoBoingo https://archive.is/SydLw
19:02 asciilifeform zimbabwes weren't meant to have piped gas.
19:02 asciilifeform they heat with cow shit.
19:04 BingoBoingo You'd be surprised where they pipe gas here
19:05 BingoBoingo Anyways, my zimbabwe is prolly less zimbabwe than yours.
19:05 asciilifeform point being, the time will come when $infrastructure explodes and is not repaired.
19:05 asciilifeform not in a week, not in a month.
19:05 asciilifeform like the sov towns in far east that are frozen ghost towns now.
19:05 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: you say this, but i've never seen fireballs emerging from the asphalt.
19:06 asciilifeform and when i get small voltage dip and call repair truck, it shows up in 40 min.
19:06 asciilifeform max.
19:06 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Did not emerge from asphale, about 15-20 feet away from asphalt. Crew that exploded pipe was doing some shit to prep the site for an old folks home.
19:06 asciilifeform nor are washington bridges yet falling.
19:08 asciilifeform note also that the far east ghost towns in su, but moscow is not.
19:08 asciilifeform like it or not, 'good things flow to the city'
19:09 asciilifeform (as do the scum, yes)
19:09 * asciilifeform bbl.
19:09 mircea_popescu asciilifeform> like the sov towns in far east that are frozen ghost towns now. << this makes one hell of a trip btw.
19:10 mircea_popescu and tbh, at some point in the 90s moscow was half falling over, actually.
19:10 mircea_popescu fortunately no earthquakes. hopefully they mostly fixed it.
19:10 mircea_popescu bucharest was in the same position.
19:18 pete_dushenski asciilifeform: washington bridges might not be falling, but what kind of a nation's capital closes light rail lines ?
19:22 hanbot didn't i see some pic or other of moscow's main freeway, >15 lanes, absolutely gridlocked?
19:25 hanbot not sure alive > dead
19:27 mircea_popescu that was the roaring 2010s tho neh ?
~ 19 minutes ~
19:46 mod6 good convo today re: ada/c/math machine, etc.
19:46 mod6 i want math machine
19:53 pete_dushenski ;;later tell ben_vulpes i can see why you like that shelbyllet : it's aircraft meets muscle car. and wouldja check out that inboard/pushrod suspension! mega-nifty. largely unseen on street cars outside lambo aventador ($500k) and, of course, pagani ($1mn+++)
19:53 gribble The operation succeeded.
19:55 mod6 pete_dushenski: hey I did get your message about the weird balance thing. i've seen that myself too.
19:55 mod6 wallet sucks shit
19:55 pete_dushenski omfg do they ever
19:56 deedbot- [fr.anco.is] BitBet auction: a winrar is znort987 - http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-auction-a-winrar-is-znort987
19:56 pete_dushenski not like i wasn't planning how i'd overcome this retardation if i was going to be handling >100 txen per mo, but hey, someone else's problem now i guess
20:01 mod6 asciilifeform: thanks for the ada link
20:03 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1448250 <<< i just did, ty!
20:04 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1448228 <<< sorry! i have to admit i was slightly disappointed to see you didn't take bb home
20:06 pete_dushenski davout: cheers. you're probably not the only one who would've preferred known and (somewhat) trusted owner vs. unknown quantity, but hey money talks and bullshit walks.
20:06 mod6 btw, these logs could use a hh:mm:ss ts on the front
20:07 mod6 glad to be back reading the logs though.
20:07 mod6 so cheers for getting them up and going. :]
20:07 ButtNewsButt http://qntra.net/2016/04/bitbet-auction-closes/
20:07 deedbot- [Qntra] BitBet Auction Closes - http://qntra.net/2016/04/bitbet-auction-closes/
20:09 mircea_popescu mod6 they have it on mouseover.
20:09 davout BingoBoingo: the "highest bid at 86 Bitcoin" link has extra spaces
20:10 mod6 mircea_popescu: ooh. huh. no wonder i didn't see it.
20:11 BingoBoingo davout: fxd'd I think?
20:11 davout BingoBoingo: half fixed
20:11 mircea_popescu davout to try and get a final settlement here, i owe you 199.45006789, add to which 13.37 ; you owe me 86 for to be distributed to the shareholders, add to which 4.83378422 from the hotwallet, add to which 3.35043347 (335.04334737×.01), comes to 118.63585027 altogether. that sound right ? winner pay you yet ?
↖
20:13 pete_dushenski BingoBoingo: Znor987 << there's a "t" in there
20:13 BingoBoingo pete_dushenski: Not in the name as he presented it with the winning bid
20:14 BingoBoingo davout: I am not seeing extra spaces in there
20:15 mircea_popescu in a stroke of incomprehensible, ancient beings brilliance, minimal value of bitbet as established by signed contract in 2012 (100 btc) is almost within 10% of liquidation value of bitbet as established by free market / receiver, of ~89.35.
20:15 davout BingoBoingo: http://i.imgur.com/sWmXWPr.png
20:15 pete_dushenski BingoBoingo: ya, that's weird, i guess i goes by both ?
20:15 BingoBoingo davout: Should be fixed
20:15 pete_dushenski mircea_popescu: notbadatall
20:15 davout mircea_popescu: lemme check all that tomorrow when i'm fully woken up :D
20:16 mircea_popescu davout werks.
20:16 davout the payment has just arrived
20:16 mircea_popescu cool beans.
20:17 BingoBoingo pete_dushenski: I am tentatively adding the t as per davout's announcement
20:17 mircea_popescu woulda sucked if we had to redo it or w/e bs.
20:18 mod6 leibniz invented that mechanical calculator right?
20:18 BingoBoingo davout: Now it should be fixed, but I do not see anything wrong with hyperlink extending to trailing space.
20:18 mod6 like early 17th century?
20:18 asciilifeform mod6: complicated.
20:18 mircea_popescu mod6 he certainly made one
20:18 davout BingoBoingo: aha
20:18 mircea_popescu who invented the thing is iffy, many people did
20:18 mod6 oh, yeah, probably not the first or anything.
20:18 BingoBoingo greeks might have made them too
20:19 mod6 for his dad's accounting practice or what not...
20:19 asciilifeform pascal had a very leibnizian 'pascaline'
20:19 asciilifeform (which i always for some reason picture as something like a guillotine!11 but it was a calculator.)
20:19 mircea_popescu in truth clockworkery had been a slowly evolving craft since greek antiquity.
20:19 mod6 ah yeah, i read about all of this recently because of our discussions lately.
20:19 BingoBoingo https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/4dty1x/in_liquidation_bitbets_noncash_assets_fetch_86/
20:19 mod6 meanwhile, the 30 years war raged
20:19 asciilifeform aha, earliest known clockwork calc is 'antikythera mechanism'
20:19 mod6 got off on that tangent too
20:20 asciilifeform condemned to the pascaline!11
20:22 asciilifeform http://www.computermuseum.li/Testpage/Pascaline-Calculator-1642.htm
20:22 asciilifeform http://www.thocp.net/hardware/pascaline.htm << moar
20:22 mod6 yeah, thats the thing
20:23 mod6 oh yeah, leibniz created the 'stepped reckoner' right?
20:24 danielpbarron http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1448245 >> pete_dushenski> o sorry that, left those out because unsigned << signature wasn't required!
20:25 pete_dushenski until it was
20:25 mod6 maybe i was smoking crack. got him a bit confused with pascal and the war, and the accounting bit
20:25 pete_dushenski danielpbarron: like soap, once a few people start using it...
20:26 danielpbarron i'm not convinced putting so much signed material out there was even the right way to have done that..
20:27 asciilifeform just don't sign nonspecific grunts
20:27 asciilifeform problem solved.
20:27 asciilifeform yes, there live idiots who sign 'yes' and 'no'. don't be them.
20:28 mircea_popescu word.
20:28 asciilifeform conversely, don't ~accept~ grunts.
20:28 mircea_popescu even word-er.
20:28 mod6 is it a real thing about turing and the HH thing?
20:28 mircea_popescu "yes" only means something among the sort of idiots that'd take that.
20:28 mod6 i mean, did that happen?
20:28 asciilifeform mod6: is what ?
20:28 mircea_popescu ideally the way to do this is, auction master gives out a hash, everyone must include it
↖ ↖
20:28 mircea_popescu EXACTLY like V.
20:29 asciilifeform aha.
20:29 mircea_popescu but i imagine davout has been taking notes on how to do this ; and for sure a good question in any future receiver selection will be "what have you learned from bitbet liquidation process"
20:30 mod6 maybe im not talking about the same thing... turing, while trying to crack enigma
20:30 asciilifeform mod6: what about turing
20:30 asciilifeform is there a skipped log line..?
20:30 mod6 i understand that he realized many cipher text messages were signed with "HH" at the end.
20:31 asciilifeform heil hitler aha
20:31 mod6 such is a bad idea to sign small amounts of text, grunts, w/e
20:32 asciilifeform mod6: if you have a known-plaintext vulnerable cipher, yes.
20:32 asciilifeform mod6: for a good example of one that ~isn't~ - see the epic mircea_popescu thread with otp!
20:32 mod6 sure. good habits are hard to form, bad habits are hard to break. etc.
20:33 mod6 ah, werd.
20:37 * pete_dushenski to choir to sing his sorrows, concert just days away.
20:45 asciilifeform $up mthreat
20:45 deedbot mthreat voiced for 30 minutes.
20:46 mthreat jeez i take a little trip and there's a revolution
20:48 asciilifeform welcome to the new planet mthreat
20:49 mthreat thanks
20:50 asciilifeform mthreat: incidentally, the old wot was imported, you oughta be able to voice yourself.
20:51 mthreat $up
20:51 deedbot Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/a86f1c98-a1b8-4784-b280-777d90f656d1/
~ 23 minutes ~
21:14 BingoBoingo ;;bc,stats
21:14 gribble Current Blocks: 406236 | Current Difficulty: 1.668515132827772E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 407231 | Next Difficulty In: 995 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 3 hours, 47 minutes, and 54 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
21:14 BingoBoingo ;;ticker --market all --currency rmb
21:14 gribble BTCChina BTCRMB last: 2730.74, vol: 18421.94310000 | Volume-weighted last average: 2730.74
21:20 mod6 asciilifeform: this guys introduction to Ada looks like a really good tut.
~ 53 minutes ~
22:14 mircea_popescu where to mthreat ?
~ 23 minutes ~
22:37 phf v patches are back online at http://btcbase.org/patches
22:38 phf i've been getting a lot of not founds to those urls, so hopefully some of the bots are now going to be satisfied
~ 39 minutes ~
23:18 phf (ping)
23:20 BingoBoingo pong
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