Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-04-05 | 2016-04-07 → ↓
00:11 danielpbarron http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-05#1446454 << http://btcbase.org/log/2014-06-04#700916 << the most referenced line : asciilifeform commenting on some news story that BingoBoingo wanted to scoop before coindesk, saying that they'd all pretend they scooped it first anyway
00:12 danielpbarron the second most reference line : http://btcbase.org/log/2015-01-19#983318 << Rozal admitting he lied about whatever
00:12 danielpbarron there's a four-way tie for 3rd most referenced log line : http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-01#1418803 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-05-25#1144802 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2015-04-07#1090204 ; http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-05#546880
00:14 phf incidentally there's a bug in ref counter, only finds one ref
00:14 danielpbarron yeah i just noticed, it didn't like me referring to multiple lines in the same line
00:16 danielpbarron i suppose that means there may be lines with even greater references
00:19 phf i suppose we'll find out soon enough
00:20 danielpbarron yeah you can probably pop the answer out way faster than the way I just found those
00:21 phf well, so far i've succeeded in breaking annotations
00:22 phf or maybe not
00:23 phf well, something's working anyway
00:23 phf danielpbarron: http://btcbase.org/log-top-refs
00:24 danielpbarron weew, mine were right!
00:24 phf i was frankly surprised you managed to produce them manually
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00:25 phf i wonder if assbot quotes should count for annotations though
00:26 danielpbarron yeah, the rozal ones get triggered by the log line being referenced in BingoBoingo's rating on him
00:26 BingoBoingo Which is exactly how a proper public damning should work.
00:26 danielpbarron and by yeah, I mean yeah I had the same thought, that perhaps this is a less legit reference
00:26 danielpbarron heh
00:29 phf aight, check it without bot quotes
00:31 phf rozal now has three BingoBoingo rates and this thread
00:31 BingoBoingo No, you've lessened the damning!
00:33 BingoBoingo http://btcbase.org/log/2015-01-19#983318 << The damnation of the guilty is of severe importance
00:34 phf this also demonstrated for why "top refs" shouldn't remain a feature :p
00:34 phf otherwise can go ascii route and ref the same post over and over again
00:35 danielpbarron no, that's what WoT is for
00:36 danielpbarron same idea with deeds ; could submit same thing over over, but then get neg-rated out of a voice
00:40 trinque makes sense.
~ 4 hours 48 minutes ~
05:28 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-04#1445593 <<< answered http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-first-progress-report#comment-8406
05:28 davout ;;later tell hanbot ^
05:28 gribble The operation succeeded.
05:30 davout http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-04#1445594 <<< what i was thinking is "offer wires as an alternative to a cash settlement to people who presently hold x.eur and to whom i've committed to delivering upon request", and then close it, at least until i have another professionnal setup to handle it properly
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05:31 davout ;;later tell mircea_popescu ^
05:31 gribble The operation succeeded.
~ 2 hours 59 minutes ~
08:30 asciilifeform ;;later tell phf i find myself agreeing with adlai, the way we have it now, the log is in fact near-unreadable EXCEPT in wwwtron. links oughta dump into the chan assbot-style
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08:30 gribble The operation succeeded.
08:30 asciilifeform (at least when they are links to the log)
~ 27 minutes ~
08:57 shinohai https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/04/06/house-of-horrors-police-find-apparent-sex-slave-chained-to-strippers-pole-in-detroit-home/ <<< Police said mircea_popescu was nowhere to be found.
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~ 1 hours 39 minutes ~
10:37 mircea_popescu adlai: asciilifeform: would you argue that satoshi should've switched PoW each time a new optimized (ie, gpu, fpga, etc) miner was released, at least, before he sepukkud? <<< whatever he'd argue, it is a fact that YES, satoshi should have been a man rather than an herb, and once he knew things blew up should have called forth the dragon.
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10:37 mircea_popescu this, incidentally, is both what distinguishes children from men, and an absolute bar to leadership.
10:38 davout phf: very cool log you made!
10:38 mircea_popescu phf: adlai: i'm half expecting bot to fall over at any second, you want it to spew log lines, you crazy, mang << no, seriously, this is a must. deedbot must say the logline when it sees the reference, there's no way about it, because seeing the line reminds me of the log directly, but clicking links etc is such a high bar...
10:39 mircea_popescu no way around it*
10:41 mircea_popescu "gentleman agreement" for the love of all that's slippery and wet.
10:41 mircea_popescu how about we get a gentleman's agreement to piss on him and his "discovery" - i know a lot more actual gentlemen in banking and finance than in computing.
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10:43 mircea_popescu phf: incidentally there's a bug in ref counter, only finds one ref << thanks danielpbarron :D
10:43 danielpbarron yw
10:43 mircea_popescu phf: well, so far i've succeeded in breaking annotations phf: or maybe not phf: well, something's working anyway <<< bwahahaha check out the ada-lisper at work! :D
10:43 * danielpbarron is currently updating blog posts to reference new log instead of old one
10:44 mircea_popescu what did you do ? update daniel_posts replace(post_content, bitcoin-assets, btcbase) ?
10:45 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log-top-refs << this is a splendidly useful tool, actually!
10:45 danielpbarron nah i'm just doing it manually because it's only a month old ; but it'll be really easy for you to do it that way as the urls are virtually identical
10:45 mircea_popescu i want it to be a flag in the search, so as to search IN IT.
10:46 mircea_popescu (ie, results come out sorted by it)
10:46 mircea_popescu we're actually building a sort of cyber-ai-implant here, it's obvious by now.
10:46 mircea_popescu human memory being obviously the most directly augmentable of all the high cognition functions.
10:51 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1446757 << guy reads teh logs.
10:52 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1446788 << what 'discovery' again ?
10:52 mircea_popescu so iirc the way this was solved before is, phf makes the page TITLE of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1446757 read "phf: i was frankly surprised you managed to produce them manually" and then trinque makes deedbot fetch the TITLE of all pages and this solves reading loglines into chat.
10:53 asciilifeform aha ^
10:53 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you linked to the strippers whatever ?
10:53 asciilifeform waiwut
10:53 * asciilifeform still snarfing up the logz
10:53 mircea_popescu hmm this is odd, clicking on your link lists http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1446781 as first on my screen
10:53 asciilifeform strippers?
10:54 mircea_popescu phf why isn't linked line first in viewport ?! how am i gonna find what he means ?!
10:54 mircea_popescu asciilifeform once it became obvious they can gpu mine. that discovery.
10:54 asciilifeform ah!
10:54 phf mircea_popescu: now that's just crazy talk, the behavior is identical to old log
10:54 danielpbarron mircea_popescu, not enough content below to have the page scroll to the right spot
10:54 mircea_popescu phf i tell you ?! oh oh! i c.
10:55 danielpbarron could pad with whitespace i suppose
10:55 mircea_popescu nah is ok now that i know wtf.
10:55 mircea_popescu btw, btcbase.org could use some links on it.
10:55 phf it could, but i'd rather not have random durps hitting the domain and then hitting the logs until i'm certain of logs
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10:55 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1446782 << it is not clear that fella had unilaterel workfunction-twiddling auctoritas
10:56 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the consacrated words being under the dragon. "i see no reason to continue supporting or otherwise encourage X.". with or without the banishment rider.
10:57 mircea_popescu phf word. also, a way to go to arbitrary date should be... oh nm, i can just hack teh url.
10:57 mircea_popescu you'll hafta excuse flurry of nonsense, trying&figuring out new clothes.
10:57 phf nono wait
10:58 mircea_popescu asciilifeform what fella what unilateral ?!
10:58 phf so the way it used to address is /?date=06-04-2016, i think that should still happen when you hit /log/
10:58 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: satoshi
10:58 danielpbarron mildly annoying that old log url and new log url have date in reverse order, but i guess a script can hack around this trivially
10:58 asciilifeform did anyone actually give half a fuck what he thought ?
10:58 mircea_popescu right ? so if i want feb 2012 i go /?date=01-02-2012
10:58 asciilifeform ( i was not tuned in yet, so i have nfi )
10:58 mircea_popescu asciilifeform about as much as mp in #b-a.
10:59 phf right, but that will redirect you to /log/2012-02-01 because i like iso 8601
10:59 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/01-02-2013 << fanci that ?!
10:59 mircea_popescu hm
10:59 phf right, because endpoint for the log is an iso8601 date
10:59 mircea_popescu ah right, order.
10:59 mircea_popescu but looky, empty pages! http://btcbase.org/log/2013-02-03
11:00 mircea_popescu asciilifeform he doubtlessly failed to understand both his capabilities and his responsibilities, until later, as is usually the lot of people.
11:00 phf oh that old old log is not there yet, and will probably go in within a month or so
11:00 mircea_popescu kk
11:00 mircea_popescu lol you readin' it first ? :D
11:01 phf have some people transcribe it
11:01 mircea_popescu not machinable huh.
11:01 * asciilifeform admits that he misses the old checkerboard patter in the logz
11:02 asciilifeform *pattern
11:02 asciilifeform and the timestapmz
11:02 phf the desire for old styling has been expressed and heard
11:05 mircea_popescu lol this guy
11:05 mircea_popescu $rated phf
11:05 deedbot mircea_popescu rated phf 2 at 3644159832 << Fixed our boxen!
11:06 mircea_popescu $rate phf 3 Teh desire has been expressed and heard!
11:06 deedbot Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/995fb18d-4f35-4909-a21f-32dd70b0d96e/
11:07 mircea_popescu $v 8C225EF704922ADE60BE99B4CDC7CC85BB04049F87751A9849FFC35C9AFB2522
11:07 deedbot mircea_popescu updated rating of phf from 2 to 3 << Teh desire has been expressed and heard!
11:07 mircea_popescu im curious how phf does in domestic arguments.
11:08 mircea_popescu did a woman you cared about ever manage to get a satisfyingly loud and wet quarrel witcha ?
11:12 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1446775 << makes sense. hopefully the holders will be kind enough to get out of their positions amiably.
11:22 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2014-07-28#774690 << ahh what a quote.
11:22 mircea_popescu possibly might be an idea to eschew counting references to a log line made by the same author ?
11:32 mircea_popescu let's also put this in teh record "S.MPOE": {"1d": {"avg": "50504.3351821","min": "50143","max": "51211","vsh": "437407","vsa": "22090949739","cnt": "15"}, "7d": {"avg": "49898.0738545","min": "49008","max": "51211","vsh": "1288832","vsa": "64310234322","cnt": "95"}, "30d": {"avg": "49515.8488864","min": "41707","max": "53882","vsh": "22173235","vsa": "1097926553583","cnt": "1517"}}
11:36 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1446818 << phf tell you what, ima hold up changing trilema links until you're happy with it then. you say.
11:44 phf that sounds reasonable
11:45 phf the web part is fine, but i want a bit more reliability out of a bot, maybe move it into a separate process even. this whole ascii's "does cmucl even has proper threads" is biting me in the ass
11:45 mircea_popescu heh
11:46 mircea_popescu without importing all the battlefield lulz on the topic : it is rather important for lisp to be used in ACTUAL applications, as opposed to conceptual.
11:46 mircea_popescu this shit is dirty.
11:46 mircea_popescu brits had a very similar problem, "our tank is very well made" "how does it do in the sand ?" "WHAT?!?!?!"
11:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu is here committing the 'economics is what i see at the grocery counter' fallacy
11:47 mircea_popescu tell.
11:47 asciilifeform as described in his own article re same!
11:47 phf lisp's attitude to threads for a decade now has been "now let's see how this whole `threading' thing plays out, and maybe come up with a solution in a decade or two"
11:47 asciilifeform phf: sbcl exists.
11:47 mircea_popescu phf fwiw i believe "threads" are a miserable kludge, so i can see the angle.
11:47 asciilifeform even mcl has threads.
11:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: no threads, no multicpu
11:47 phf asciilifeform: quiters
11:48 mircea_popescu asciilifeform were you gonna explain how the grocery thing relates ?
11:48 mircea_popescu and srsly, what, it's my job to tell the processor how to process ? that's why it's a processor, let it process!
11:48 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in that most effective software isn't public.
11:48 mircea_popescu but oh, no, "you gotta make this hacky flagging scheme to show us what to paralellize!"
11:48 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: you'd like ada then
11:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that is utterly besides the point, isn't it ? most well made statues were kept in temples, in the dark, untouched and unseen. this doesn't mean they had ergonomic spoons in mass production!
11:49 asciilifeform ada tasks, afaik, is the only sane implementation of parallelism where you ~never~ specify explicit thread
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11:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: consider, e.g., naggum's oil/gas exploration proggies
11:50 asciilifeform they were 100% commonlisp (allegro) but never will be published or advertised.
11:50 mircea_popescu consider what i'm actually saying : it's one thing to solve correctly a well defined problem ; it is another thing to solve well a nebulous one.
11:50 asciilifeform they are not part of what folks think of as 'software ecosystem'
11:50 mircea_popescu we'll be doing a lot of the 2nd willy-nilly.
11:50 asciilifeform right
11:50 mircea_popescu and it is good that the good tools, derived from 1st, get some battle experience.
11:51 asciilifeform i can't argue with this.
11:51 mircea_popescu so then why are you :)
11:51 asciilifeform my objection was to 'lisp never tested in Serious Business'
11:51 mircea_popescu I DID SAY!!11!! "without importing" did i ?
11:51 mircea_popescu and yes, the more i hear about ada the more i like it, or properly speaking the more it sounds like right thing.
11:51 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i wish it weren't the right thing...
11:51 asciilifeform but it is.
11:52 PeterL asciilifeform could you make a "right thing" that is better than ada?
11:52 asciilifeform has, e.g., predicated types. (which means, you can declare a variable, where, say, assigning a prime number to it is an error condition in the runtime. which means, yes, a check on EVERY assignment.)
11:53 asciilifeform PeterL: when? by friday morning before breakfast ??
11:53 mircea_popescu PeterL not in a lifetime.
11:53 PeterL no, just conceivably, as in have you identified places where it could be improved?
11:53 mircea_popescu liek that it's a pretty good q.
11:54 asciilifeform PeterL: understand, ada is necessary because we are stuck with the idiot c machine.
11:54 asciilifeform a properly constructed computer would perform ALL of the same checks, and more, IN HARDWARE
11:54 asciilifeform but we haven't such a thing.
11:54 PeterL aha, so if you ditch c-machine then you could do better?
11:55 asciilifeform PeterL: definitionally
11:55 mircea_popescu different and incomparable.
11:55 asciilifeform ^
11:55 mircea_popescu there's no "better" in that space.
11:55 mircea_popescu also you can't implicitly sort complex numbers.
11:55 phf well, incremental improvement on ada doesn't seem like a particularly interesting problem, thing comes with a lineage, wirth's pascal, modula, oberon; ada fits into that ecosystem, so simply going over wirth's research you can find a lot of existing ideas for ada improvements
11:55 asciilifeform the 'better' is in the sense of 'less screaming idiocy in the mix'
11:56 mircea_popescu if idiocy screamed in the forest where there's no alf the bee-dog to hear it,
11:56 mircea_popescu would the world be better ?
11:56 asciilifeform phf: there are some very obvious warts in the language - e.g., the compiler is one-pass and you end up having to write c-style prototypes for some functions.
11:56 asciilifeform but there is also a STANDARD
11:56 asciilifeform and if you improve the thing, you break it.
11:56 asciilifeform as in common lisp.
11:56 phf but if you start with scheme-81/cadr or greenarrays or whatever, could probably get more interesting results by a margin
11:56 mircea_popescu incidentally, WHY is the compiler single pass ?
11:57 asciilifeform phf: yes, but we haven't the factory.
11:57 asciilifeform what we have is a great many rusty old pentiums.
11:58 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: why? because it is.
11:58 asciilifeform because it made sense in 1980
11:58 asciilifeform when cpu cycles were precious, and disks - glacially slow.
11:58 mircea_popescu i've been wondering bout this.
11:58 mircea_popescu but might be the lowest fruit.
11:59 asciilifeform incidentally, i recommend the 'random walk' article to anyone with even a passive interest in the subj
11:59 mircea_popescu asciilifeform> [...] you can declare a variable, where, say, assigning a prime number to it is an error condition in the runtime. which means, yes, a check on EVERY assignment. <<< now imagine the converse type :D
11:59 asciilifeform at least read the section about pointer leakage prevention
11:59 asciilifeform it is unique, afaik, to ada
11:59 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: l0l
11:59 mircea_popescu aha ?
12:00 mircea_popescu but there's a point here. it's not a bounded problem!
12:00 mircea_popescu and yeah, i get the "doc it hurts when i do this" "so don't do it then" thing. but ...
12:00 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: generally folks will use simple predicates (e.g., 'not equal to 0')
12:01 asciilifeform sorta like c 'assert' but you can attach it to ~anything~
12:01 mircea_popescu hey. is it a thing or is it not a thing! stop giving me jam!
12:01 asciilifeform which ?
12:01 mircea_popescu the predicated types.
12:02 mircea_popescu "all of the same checks, and more, in hardware". what now ? miner core in every cpu, to check for primality ?
12:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: basic hygiene.
12:02 asciilifeform as in, arrays live with their bounds
12:02 asciilifeform and ALL accesses are bounds-checked;
12:03 mircea_popescu your idea of basic hygiene differs from the medieval french only in form, not in substance.
12:03 mircea_popescu it's still give or take "what everyone else does".
12:03 mircea_popescu and fwiw most arabs'd be horrified at the notion of not actually washing bunghole after defecation.
12:04 asciilifeform integers are MARKED AS SUCH and tested when arithmetizing;
12:04 mircea_popescu poorest village public toilet still had water implement in working condition.
12:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i did not say that basic hygiene is a ~stopping~ place, but a starting point.
12:04 asciilifeform we don't even HAVE the toilet yet.
12:05 mircea_popescu the problem is that it being unbounded, it can't really be hardware.
12:05 asciilifeform we're still at the shit-where-you-stand level.
12:05 asciilifeform the basics ABSOLUTELY belong in hardware.
12:05 mircea_popescu reasoning past the faith ?
12:05 hanbot davout moar for you. http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-first-progress-report#comment-8410
12:05 asciilifeform there is no excuse for buffer overflows to be a thing.
12:05 mircea_popescu why not ?
12:05 asciilifeform why not shit where you stand?
12:05 asciilifeform in your pants?
12:05 asciilifeform do i have to justify that also ?
12:05 mircea_popescu listen : the EARTH permits you to do so.
12:05 mircea_popescu do you propose "not shit where yo ustand" should be a property of earth and standing ?
12:06 mircea_popescu would you buy pants with buttplug ?
12:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this is a ludicrous analogy.
12:07 asciilifeform the butt plug has a down side.
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12:07 mircea_popescu "as long as these are securely fastened, an absolute guarantee to no pants shitting can be offered by manufacturer". and yes i used such thjings, but for very peculiar purposes.
12:07 mircea_popescu and if it's a shitty analogy blame yourself - you brought it in!
12:07 mircea_popescu ha! what, and hardware has no downside ?!
12:08 mircea_popescu now i understand why you expect the foundries to cost billionz! you're outsourcing!
12:08 asciilifeform sane hardware has no downside other than it not yet existing.
12:08 mircea_popescu ...
12:08 asciilifeform in that respect it has the same downside as eschewing microshit had in 1995.
12:08 phf that's a platonist right there
12:08 mircea_popescu seems altogether easier for you to not shit where you stand than for us to create a new reality.
12:09 asciilifeform not entirely new, examples existed as early as 1969
12:09 asciilifeform (control data corp.'s products)
12:10 mircea_popescu a more general and unrelated problem : why should the specific number of compiler passes be set down in the standard ?
12:10 mircea_popescu i can't write sentences with a count at the end saying how many times you have to read them until you get them.
12:11 asciilifeform 2.
12:12 asciilifeform as for 'why standard' - it affects the semantics.
12:12 asciilifeform ergo a standard is meaningless unless it contains it.
12:12 mircea_popescu wasn't by any means a practical consideration. more of a "thinking about the compiler of the wetware future"
12:13 phf $up a111
12:13 deedbot a111 voiced for 30 minutes.
12:13 mircea_popescu hola a111
12:13 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1446778 << i also agree, i just politely pointed out that the feature is obviously needed, i just don't trust bot part enough yet to put more functionality on it.
12:13 a111 Logged on 2016-04-06 12:30 asciilifeform: ;;later tell phf i find myself agreeing with adlai, the way we have it now, the log is in fact near-unreadable EXCEPT in wwwtron. links oughta dump into the chan assbot-style
12:13 mircea_popescu o check it out , also had a bot.
12:14 phf it's all bots sitting there unvoiced
12:14 mircea_popescu juj
12:14 mircea_popescu (ftn, juj = kik ^2 = lol ^ 4)
12:15 asciilifeform what'd be the complex conjugate of l0l ?
12:16 asciilifeform re earlier thread,
12:16 asciilifeform http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/12rat/html/Rat12-2-5.html
12:16 asciilifeform ^ predicates
12:16 mircea_popescu which reminds me of my indignation in 9th grade. THERE ARE TWO COMPLEX CONJUGATES!!11
12:17 phf $down a111
12:17 mircea_popescu -a+bi / a + bi also!
12:19 mircea_popescu "So we see that the predicate in the subtype Even cannot be a static predicate because the operator mod is not permitted with the current instance. But mod could be used in an inner static expression."
12:19 mircea_popescu eh ffs.
12:19 mircea_popescu even can be static irrespective of fucking mod wtf.
12:20 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: you gotta know what mod means in ada
12:20 mircea_popescu "and, in addition, a call of a Boolean logical operator and, or, xor, not whose operands are such static predicate expressions, and, a static predicate expression in parentheses." << right there. a xor maxint-1 > 0
12:20 asciilifeform it means 'takes up this-many bits REGARDLESS'
12:20 mircea_popescu EVEN is wrongly defined is the point.
12:21 asciilifeform where?
12:21 mircea_popescu im quoting from your link.
12:22 trinque phf: http://dpaste.com/1SZ14HH << here's what I beat your example into
12:22 trinque maybe we can collaborate on getting a bot that, y'know, stays connected to an IRC channel
12:22 trinque thing knows how to ghost, has your ping/pong code in it (thanks!)
12:23 trinque and I have no idea if I did terrible things, so say so. I'm just some dude reading books on lisp that washed up on my island
12:25 asciilifeform trinque: neato
12:28 trinque where I (think I'm) headed is the bot being a separate module. code using the bot would pass the appropriate generic function to call for commands into make-bot
12:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform basically they lazily decided "even" is to be tested by "mod", which is unacceptable if they're going to make mod randomly unavailable ; seeing how there are purely bit-logical ways to test for even-ness.
12:29 mircea_popescu which they don't make similarly unavailable.
12:29 phf trinque: you can forgo the whole nickserv integration by putting password into the irc:connect
12:29 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the bitwise thing works. i have nfi why not used in the example.
12:29 phf or better yet add ssl key
12:29 asciilifeform or actually i no
12:29 asciilifeform *do
12:29 asciilifeform say it's an algebraic type (e.g. bignum)
12:30 trinque phf: ah that's simpler
12:30 asciilifeform ada is a civilized lang like commonlisp and there is NOT a presumption that integers are machine words !
12:30 mircea_popescu so you're saying i'm a sinful asm/cobol/c-head ?
12:30 asciilifeform aha.
12:30 mircea_popescu for shame.
12:30 asciilifeform it is curable tho!
12:31 phf trinque: http://dpaste.com/1SZ14HH#line-549, (irc:connect :nickname *bot-nick* :server "irc.freenode.net" :password *bot-ns-password*)
12:31 phf should solve all your service woes
12:32 phf my ping/pong code was not very good. i reworked it yesterday, but haven't yet enabled on this guy, so if he falls over, it'll be quietly, and we'll know by lack of logs :D
12:32 trinque and that'll just boot the previous instance of "deedbot" if I connect that way?
12:33 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: ada is a merciless thing. e.g., you cannot use two types interchangeably even if 'they're the same inside'; can only take pointers of items explicitly declared pointerable-to; by default, pointers only valid in the context where they were taken
12:34 mircea_popescu aha.
12:34 phf that was my impression since that's how my bouncer runs, and the only time i had issues is when my ssl cert silently expired. but come to think of it, i've not tested it
12:34 asciilifeform the basic philosophy is to take the most dangerous knobs and attach broken glass spikes to them
12:34 asciilifeform so programmer only grips it if he ~really~ must
12:34 asciilifeform and feels the pain.
12:34 mircea_popescu sounds a lot like v!
12:34 asciilifeform aha.
12:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform so how is this wonder of a mod defined so it works on vectors ?
12:37 mircea_popescu more importantly, if there's no assumption of machine register underlying, how exactly is it that they can always xor but only sometimes mod ?
12:37 phf trinque: nope, there's no free lunch. irc force changes the nick, before there's a chance to ghost
12:37 mircea_popescu seems to me xor is just as un-immediately defined on abstract types.
12:37 mircea_popescu phf you can ghost arbitrary nick no matter what you'rte called.
12:37 mircea_popescu then change your name.
12:38 phf mircea_popescu: yeah, but then you have to write that logic into a bot. i was hoping that using login/password just kicks the previous account off
12:39 mircea_popescu ah. yeah you would. i don't think they can maintain ircd loose network and have it do that.
12:40 trinque phf: my bot-check-nick would still work in that case
12:40 trinque can keep that and ditch the nickserv auth
12:41 phf trinque: nah, your nick will autochange before the nickserv authentication. it's entirely broken, basically if you reg a, and a is already logged in, you get changed to a` and nickserv goes "why you giving me password, a` is not registered"
↖
12:41 trinque right, my func is a hook for the welcome message
12:42 phf so the entire nickserv machinery is required
12:43 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: these were ~examples~
12:44 asciilifeform not built into the language in any sense
12:44 asciilifeform (examples of type-predicates you ~could~ make)
12:44 trinque phf: seems if my nick is automagically changed, my welcome hook would notice that and do the ghost as written
12:44 trinque I could just move the password and remove the case where my nick hasn't been changed
12:53 * phf brb
12:53 trinque eh I guess you end up doing both, because then you've still gotta nickserv auth
12:53 trinque this protocol is shit
12:54 trinque asciilifeform: pls halp
12:54 trinque seems the voice model pairs with gossipd rather well, where voicing is a matter of message forwarding rules
12:55 asciilifeform trinque: l0lwut
12:59 trinque if one wanted a #trilema on the thing, that would perhaps be a matter of there being a #trilema node distinguishing official vs heathen chatter by what it bothers to send along to other nodes?
12:59 trinque I could of course send you messages I somehow say are intended for #trilema entirely aside the point of whether the official node bothers with them
13:00 trinque so then in this perhaps broken mental model of what the thing is, the trilema node would change whether it's gossiping about received messages based on wot ratings
13:00 asciilifeform trinque: you are still thinking in the old style
13:03 mircea_popescu trinque> seems the voice model pairs with gossipd rather well, where voicing is a matter of message forwarding rules << it doesn't even pair, it IS it. substance of the universe, not even protocol.
13:04 mircea_popescu and yes, the concept of multiple "channels" is entirely user-powered, you can make lists of the people you listen to any way you want.
13:07 davout deedbot: http://dpaste.com/3831YQD.txt
13:07 trinque deedbot- http://dpaste.com/3831YQD.txt
13:07 deedbot- accepted: 1
13:07 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1447053 << you don't go //msg NickServ identify p, you go /msg NickServ identify a p and THEN you go release a and then you go ghost a and then you go nick a and you're done.
13:07 mircea_popescu irrespective of any a'.
13:08 davout trinque: danke schön
13:08 mircea_popescu the protocol is not as bad as it is obscure.
13:08 mircea_popescu ahaha bidding on own auction ? i gotta import this in eulora totally.
13:10 davout not like they're my assets
13:10 trinque bid his fee, heh!
13:10 mircea_popescu lol
13:11 mircea_popescu when's it close, midnight today ?
13:11 davout yeah, unless bidding action happens, in which case auction continues until no bid for one hour
13:12 mircea_popescu still at what, 1% of historical valuation ? 2 ?
13:13 mircea_popescu mebbe there's more interest.
13:14 davout stay tuned!
13:16 PeterL why are people putting bids in the second progress report comments, when the auction is supposed to be held in the comment section of the first progress report?
13:16 mircea_popescu that's a good q.
13:17 PeterL do those bids even count?
13:17 mircea_popescu i can't see how ? prolly should put a notice to bid in the right place ?
13:17 PeterL davout ^
13:19 mircea_popescu in completely unrelated lolz, http://www.prnewswire.co.uk/news-releases/the-worlds-most-expensive-book-will-remain-under-lock-and-key-until-the-march-2009-art-dubai-152983575.html
13:19 mircea_popescu considering the alternative is reading the logs, 200mn might not even be a bad deal.
13:25 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: l0l! does that fella also sell own shit ?
13:25 asciilifeform for $trillion / turd ?
13:26 mircea_popescu apaprently he does!
13:26 asciilifeform mega-businessmodel.
13:26 mircea_popescu software expertise, right ?
13:26 asciilifeform aha.
13:30 PeterL how to make a million dollars: sell a million things for a dollar or sell one thing for a million dollars
13:31 PeterL all you need is the one chump who will give you the million
13:34 deedbot- [Daniel P. Barron] Whatever pretense necessary - http://danielpbarron.com/2016/whatever-pretense-necessary/
~ 16 minutes ~
13:50 mircea_popescu danielpbarron but are you actually exempt or just claiming ?
13:58 * danielpbarron shrugs
14:01 mircea_popescu well, poverty is an absolute bar to the workings of law in the us, if you're poor you're priviledged. nevertheless the way this works is that you either say something or go to jail ; and if they decide you didn't say the right thing at some previous point you also go to jail.
14:03 mircea_popescu in particular " Me: He was convicted on fraud charges; not tax avoidance. The prosecution made the case that he knowingly offered false advice in exchange for customer’s money." is a distinction without a difference. writing "extempt" when "you shouldn't have" is exactly what "fraud" means in that context.
14:05 danielpbarron it's my understanding that in order to have 0 withheld, i also have to say exempt
14:05 danielpbarron otherwise they take money out preemptively and I'd need to file to get it back
14:05 asciilifeform if you're poor you're priviledged << waiwut?!
14:05 * deedbot hands you a broomstick.
14:06 PeterL nah, I did not claim exempt but had no withholdings last year
14:06 davout lol wtf deedbot
14:06 PeterL (but I claime a very high number of dependents)
14:07 danielpbarron so not comparable to my situation..
14:07 mircea_popescu asciilifeform if you are poor in the us, the law doesn't (really) apply to you.
14:08 mircea_popescu in most sane places, the way it works is that if you are RICH the law doesn't really apply to you. but in the us - converse.
14:10 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: only true in the 'blood from a stone' sense
14:11 asciilifeform otherwise entirely on crack
14:11 mircea_popescu and in the beat wife sense and in the won't pay tax/alimony/whatever sense, and in the stalking and raping sense and in all the fucking senses.
14:11 mircea_popescu can go steal from mall sense, what.
14:11 davout PeterL: yes, it's a good point, i'll move my comment and keep an eye open to move those that ended up commenting the wrong post
14:12 asciilifeform if yer poor in usa, merely HAVING TO SHOW UP IN COURT is likely to cost you your job, for instance.
14:12 mircea_popescu job ?
14:12 mircea_popescu gtfo out of here.
14:12 asciilifeform yes?
14:12 mircea_popescu why would poor people have a job. that's the parole officer's problem.
14:12 asciilifeform i'm speaking of poor, not lumpen scum
14:12 mircea_popescu you're speaking of crack :)
14:13 shinohai ;;later tell BingoBoingo I need moar qntra shares to prevent this poor woman from dying of overeat: http://www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/gastric-band-appeal-amy-murray-11138741
14:13 gribble The operation succeeded.
14:13 asciilifeform the crack smokers, as mircea_popescu correctly observes, are more or less invulnerable.
14:13 asciilifeform to anything short of thermonuke.
14:13 mircea_popescu poverty means what it means, not what you dream it to be.
14:14 asciilifeform how is my poverty not a poverty ?
14:14 mircea_popescu the "poor but bright and loyal famr girl" exists in mosfilm propaganda.
14:14 PeterL there is poor, working-class, and rich
14:14 PeterL asciilifeform you are in the working-class
14:14 mircea_popescu PeterL he has a peculiar notion of poor as "under the weather / skilled immigrant / etc"
14:15 asciilifeform no i know about the lumpens.
14:17 mircea_popescu anyway. the way society works is that it's either a crime to be poor ; or else ity's a crime to be rich. alternatives do not exist, it's a strict switch outside of the capacity of convention, like gravity : either motor force or splat.
14:17 mircea_popescu and the us has switched, and that's what it is.
14:17 mircea_popescu we know for a fact it's no crime to be poor, and what follows is that the law doesn't apply to you, just be poor.
14:18 asciilifeform or ' be rat '
14:19 mircea_popescu i'll have to have that rat thing demonstrated, doesn't seem to make much sense theoretically.
14:19 asciilifeform nowhere does law apply to rat.
14:21 asciilifeform rat has no possessions to confiscate, etc
14:21 mircea_popescu all rats have nests.
14:22 asciilifeform how long to set up rat nest ?
14:23 mircea_popescu nfi. bout the same fraction of its life as it takes young male to get his first time house ?
14:24 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: half?!
14:24 mircea_popescu mmmno. you're thinking of a young man that doesn't exist.
14:25 mircea_popescu actual young man goes into unrepayable debt, spends altogether maybe a year or so on the thing ?
14:25 mircea_popescu less, really.
14:25 mircea_popescu cue the canuck "renegotiable 5yr rate on 30 yr mortgages", i nearly fell over when i had that confirmed.
14:26 asciilifeform if rats invent debt...
14:26 mircea_popescu besides the point what non-poor, non-rat poeople invent
14:26 mircea_popescu fact remains the3 biological machine will spend the same time doing the same things
14:26 mircea_popescu just like blocks follow at ~the same intervals,
14:26 mircea_popescu irrespective of what chip manufacturers invent
14:29 asciilifeform lumpen is actually ~below~ rat.
14:29 asciilifeform accumulates nothing.
14:29 asciilifeform doesn't even try.
14:29 mircea_popescu we can agree on this once you give your sorting criteria
14:29 asciilifeform hm?
14:29 mircea_popescu note that philip also accumulated nothing.
14:30 asciilifeform time horizon.
14:31 mircea_popescu a, you got the macedon reference ? good for you!
14:31 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i dunno any other philip
14:33 mircea_popescu jus' halping teh reader along with some crumbs.
14:33 asciilifeform l0l
14:34 mircea_popescu so i'm guessing danielpbarron is getting voted most likely to succeed jail ?
14:35 asciilifeform perhaps we can sit in the same jail
14:36 mircea_popescu afaik that's specifically not how jail works.
14:36 danielpbarron from what I understand, they're supposed to tell me what i'm supposed to have paid, and if i refuse then to pay it -> jail
14:36 mircea_popescu ironically i linked a piece about some other famous tax quarrel guy, who said the same thing (from jail)
14:36 mircea_popescu days ago.
14:38 mircea_popescu of course unlike that guy you don't have either millions in assets nor a wife more than happy to get it all in exchange for paying tax on it
14:38 asciilifeform actually long before jail,
14:38 mircea_popescu course, i suppose a wife could be found for the govt to cut the deal with.
14:38 asciilifeform they confiscate anything you might have
14:38 asciilifeform incl. any wage that is on record
14:39 danielpbarron i wouldn't mind cutting them a check so much if they came and asked for it; I can't stand this whole "you do our work for us" ritual americans do every april
14:39 mircea_popescu lollercopter.
14:39 mircea_popescu danielpbarron but if they just asked how would you know it's correct!
14:40 danielpbarron if i think the amount they asked for is incorrect, i'd come up with my own number and challenge it
14:40 mircea_popescu ("you'd have to do it in parallel anyway!" "well if you're doing it anyway, wouldn't it be ~rational~ they don';t do it at all and save the cost ?" << that's the logic.)
14:40 asciilifeform this is not why.
14:40 asciilifeform it is done as DELIBERATE 'let'em trip up and pay fine'
14:41 mircea_popescu asciilifeform both colors can be applied, mine's friendlier.
14:42 mircea_popescu gotta appreciate - the us started exactly as a sort of tmsr of rich smugglers in an england province. conceptually it still sees broadly as this "gentleman's agreement" things etc.
14:43 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: modern usa, taxwise, and in many other respects, is circa 1900 or so.
14:44 asciilifeform the whole crud orchestra - pestilentially high tax, the resulting cancerous bureaucracy, usg as majority economic actor, the lot.
14:45 mircea_popescu i dunno. who in 1900 had a large bureaucracy ? the chinese, and they got raped.
14:45 mircea_popescu the tibetans. also raped.
14:45 mircea_popescu nobody outside of southeast and central asia tho.
14:49 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: ru
14:50 mircea_popescu nah.
14:50 mircea_popescu the tsar's thing was modest.
14:50 mircea_popescu for most of the land barely even had a census mechanism.
14:53 mircea_popescu $up pizzaman1337
14:53 deedbot pizzaman1337 voiced for 30 minutes.
14:53 pizzaman1337 mircea_popescu: hey, long time no see.
14:54 mircea_popescu funny, i was thinking the same thing.
14:54 pizzaman1337 one day I'm reading bitcoin-assets logs and bitbet is going... somewhere, mpex going private.. what's going on?
14:54 mircea_popescu hey, spring in bitcoin.
14:55 mircea_popescu how's teh fiat world been treatin' ya ?
14:55 pizzaman1337 this doesn't seem to positive for bitcoin
14:55 pizzaman1337 lousy, like always
~ 15 minutes ~
15:11 davout best bid now stands at 15 btc
15:11 mircea_popescu o.O
15:11 mircea_popescu who ?
15:12 davout mircea_popescu: http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-receivership-first-progress-report#comment-8416
15:12 davout znort987 whoever that is
15:13 mircea_popescu curious what this comes to :D
15:13 mircea_popescu tbh, about as exciting as s.mg auctions lol. they always make my sunday.
15:14 davout http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/znort987/
15:14 davout he's in the mpex apparently
15:14 davout mpex faq*
15:14 mircea_popescu davout yeah, was a guy active in 2011/2012 that then disappeared.
15:14 mircea_popescu reappearances of this kind always suspicious to me, but w/e.
15:15 davout 2011? bleh, noob.
15:16 mircea_popescu http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/user/znort987/
15:16 davout anyway, i'm genuinely curious as to how much bitbet will end up selling for
15:16 mircea_popescu yeah me2.
15:16 davout brb, gonna post my 133.7 btc bid
15:16 mircea_popescu anyway, guy got in faq because iirc he found some typo or something.
15:16 davout :D
15:17 davout which means he *did* read it
15:19 mircea_popescu i don't rightly recall what it was, and i'm not even sure i was yet keeping irc logs at the very early time all this happened.
15:19 mircea_popescu but the way mpoe happened was that basically i threw up the idea in chan and a bunch of the people then-active commented and so on.
15:24 davout at that time i was like "i have nfi what this glbse thing is supposed to do, maybe i should do drugs instead"
15:25 davout nefario asked me if i wanted to write the thing
15:25 PeterL nafario asked me if I wanted to come to some conference to talk about how to use the thing
15:26 mircea_popescu check out the old timer convention.
15:26 PeterL lol
15:27 mircea_popescu but yeah, any indignation at how retarded people are is readily tempered by memory of how fucking insane btcland was five years ago.
15:29 davout i'm pretty sure we'll look back five years from now and witness pretty much the same thing
15:29 mircea_popescu i hope.
15:30 mircea_popescu just as long as it's not "o noes, recall 2016 golden age" we're golden.
15:31 davout this is very true
15:32 davout ;;later tell pete_dushenski you have a point, i did not specify a timezone for "the end of wednesday the 6th of april"
15:32 gribble The operation succeeded.
15:32 mircea_popescu you're like totally a noob receiver and everything.
15:32 mircea_popescu should have played moar eulora, you'd know.
15:32 davout shut pup
15:33 asciilifeform mircea_popescu et al: was there ever a btctronic auction site ?
15:33 davout asciilifeform: there was, a long time ago
15:34 asciilifeform and?
15:34 davout i /think/ it was called bitmit
15:35 davout apperently, according to condesk it got shut down after a 15 btc theft
15:35 mircea_popescu there was an irc channel auction system. it died.
15:35 mircea_popescu im currently trying to get an eulora player to implement proper auctions and reporting, but it's slow going.
15:35 mircea_popescu davout bitmit was some retarded www.
15:36 diana_coman bwahaha, is that any eulora player in particular?
15:36 mircea_popescu lobbes, recall ?
15:36 mircea_popescu we had this convo a few weeks ago.
15:37 mircea_popescu http://logs.minigame.bz/2016-02-20.log.html#t16:14:05 << guy who did the #eulora logger / link reader / rss thing.
15:37 phf auction seems like a slow day feature for deedbot
15:38 mircea_popescu eh, let him do wallets.
15:38 davout phf: requires voice, gpg etc. might not always be desired
15:38 davout mircea_popescu: why would one desire such an abomination?
15:39 diana_coman ah, you mean auctions and reporting in chan, I was thinking in game stuff
15:39 mircea_popescu i'd much rather have some separation between things.
15:39 mircea_popescu davout what abomination ?
15:39 mircea_popescu diana_coman well in game-stuff i ideally want to change the chat to irc, but hey.
15:39 davout deedbot acting like a wallet
15:39 mircea_popescu so i can $pay etc.
15:39 davout like a changetip inside deedbot?
15:40 mircea_popescu quite.
15:40 davout might as well use changetip
15:40 mircea_popescu go through the logs, the thing is specced in the prev discussion with trinque.
15:40 mircea_popescu no, might NOT as well.
15:40 mircea_popescu for one thing, those people are schmucks. but even if they weren't schmucks, not in wot.
15:41 mircea_popescu someone pretending to do dev work and not being in wot is ipso facto saying "i am a fraudster trying to sell my shit as software".
15:42 asciilifeform ^
15:43 davout re a better specified auction deadline, i think it's best to precise it to "the end of wednesday the 6th of april, in whatever timezone this event happens last"
15:43 mircea_popescu diana_coman maybe by the time that's on the plate, we actually change in-game chat to gossipd.
15:43 mircea_popescu that'll be a sight.
15:43 davout aka end of wed 6th of april GMT-12
15:44 mircea_popescu davout it's certainly a softfork :)
15:44 asciilifeform but why the fuck would you put a wallet in deedbot?!
15:44 mircea_popescu ie, doesn't break what you said prior.
15:44 mircea_popescu asciilifeform so i can $pay.
15:44 davout hehe, precisely a soft-fork indeed
15:44 asciilifeform WHY
15:44 mircea_popescu so...i...can...$pay!!1
15:44 davout so noon GMT on thursday it shall be
15:45 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: you mean so that trinque has to build a castle around the server ?
↖
15:45 davout asciilifeform: no you don't it, so we can tip each other!!1
15:45 davout don't get*
15:46 phf davout: easiest option is to always put an iso8601 timestamp on things, 2016-04-06T23:59:00Z or somesuch
15:46 asciilifeform wat
15:46 davout phf: indeed
15:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes, i mean so that trinque gets experience with castles, sure.
15:46 mircea_popescu and don't fucking start with the dc current scandal all over again!
15:46 asciilifeform l0l!
15:47 mircea_popescu yea ? what!
15:48 mircea_popescu how the fuck are you going to introduce payment for, eg, deeds ? and if you do, how is it going to beat $pay deed.
15:48 mircea_popescu let it be, it's good.
15:49 asciilifeform http://sworthodoxy.blogspot.com/2015/08/ada-2012-type-invariants-and-predicates.html << re earlier
15:49 asciilifeform 'prime number type'
15:49 mircea_popescu loller!
15:51 mircea_popescu come to think about it
15:51 mircea_popescu $rated lobbes
15:51 deedbot mircea_popescu rated lobbes 2 at 3632157688 << #eulora logs bot
15:51 mircea_popescu a ok.
15:53 asciilifeform http://sworthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/03/ada-vs-c-bit-fields.html << also of interest
15:53 mats thanks for operating mpex
15:53 asciilifeform re last 2 paras
15:54 mircea_popescu cheers.
15:54 asciilifeform 'As a software safety engineer I find the implementation-defined aspects of C++ bit-fields to be very unsettling. A project may verify that its C++ bit-fields work as intended on a particular architecture, but when a technology refresh is performed in several years, there is no assurance that the C++ program will continue to work properly on the new hardware. The failure of the C++ program to run on
15:54 asciilifeform the new hardware will be received as a complete surprise by most users of the upgraded system and by their management. The surprise may be accompanied by hazardous events because of incorrect control of a safety critical system. People may be injured or die, the environment may be seriously damaged, and very expensive systems may be damaged or destroyed. The root cause of the hazards will not be po
15:55 * deedbot hands you a broomstick.
15:55 asciilifeform or functional requirements, poor design, or programming mistakes. The root cause of the hazards will be exposure of implementation-defined behaviors in a programming language. Who will the lawyers sue over the consequences of those hazards?'
15:55 mircea_popescu heh.
15:55 mircea_popescu whoever ok'd using c++ i guess.
15:56 mircea_popescu the thing clearly says "no guarantee not even for fitness to a particular purpose". if you use such items in your "safety engineering" you're liable.
15:56 mircea_popescu i don't see hospitals using bags of "saline" that come with a "warning : not suitable for use" on them.
15:56 mircea_popescu "o noes, who will we sue when they turn out to be full of piss!"
15:57 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in usa software cos were EXEMPTED from liability suits
15:57 mircea_popescu yawell.
16:00 mircea_popescu asciilifeform can you explain the concept of "contiguity" as seen in this ada spec discussion ?
16:00 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: hm?
16:01 mats i initially started with ~15btc in my coinbr piggy a little more than two years ago, deposited another 15 a year later. today, i'm walking away with 60btc in profit and a 30btc stake in s.nsa
16:01 mircea_popescu "While range specifications are very useful, they are also highly limited in their usefulness. Ada ranges must always be contiguous. This means that you cannot specify an integer data type of only even numbers, for instance. Even numbers are not contiguous."
16:01 mircea_popescu mats pretty cool!
16:01 mats thanks for all the fish
16:03 mircea_popescu how are even numbers any less "contiguous" than say natural numbers ffs.
16:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it means you ought to be able to get successor by + and predecessor by -.
16:07 phf asciilifeform: i somehow hosed my gentoo install, everything's giving me 'libstdc++.so.6 no such file' :o
16:09 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1447290 << the thing can work without a hot wallet at all, provided there's a reasonable duration to accomodate cashing out.
16:11 asciilifeform phf: http://tech.venefyxatu.be/item/57
16:11 davout trinque: a hot wallet is absolute heresy
16:11 deedbot- [fr.anco.is] BitBet auction deadline postponed (slightly) - http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-auction-deadline-postponed-slightly
16:12 trinque davout: yup.
16:12 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: also interesting,
16:12 asciilifeform http://sworthodoxy.blogspot.com/2014/03/watching-world-from-intersection-of.html
16:13 phf danke schön
16:13 trinque davout: no way in hell I'd run such a thing without it involving the airgap dance.
16:18 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i thought "mod is not defined because bignum"
16:19 mircea_popescu then we discover that > is nevertheless defined, in spite of EXACT EQUIV OF MOD
16:19 mircea_popescu and now it turns out that + and - are in the same exact situation.
16:19 mircea_popescu 1) how do you get "next" vector with + ?
16:19 mircea_popescu 2) why the fuck exactly do you think you can get 3 as 2+1 in "natural" space but you don't see that you get 4 as 2+1 in "even natural" space ?
16:20 mircea_popescu even numbers and natural numbers are EXACTLY as anything as the other one.
16:20 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i didn't build the thing!1111
16:20 mircea_popescu ima write a trilema piece about this today.
16:20 asciilifeform read 'rationale' 1st ?
16:20 mircea_popescu yeah and other things.
16:21 mircea_popescu will be more of a "inquiring" piece than anything,
16:21 mircea_popescu i'm not preparing to damn ada by any means.
16:22 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it has sharp edges but afaik it is the best we have short of massive-runtime-turd abominations like haskell.
16:33 phf mircea_popescu: i think it's because whole thing is various degrees of successful abstraction on top of von neumann machine
16:39 phf fixed width natural numbers are implemented at bedrock, so in order to support anything else you have to create an abstraction, keep it consistent with the rest of language features, etc. so you either get overspecialized languages like apl (with their runtime costs) or monsters like haskell
↖
16:41 phf lisp's answer is given von neumann what's most flexible model, ada's answer is given von neumann how do we put enough constraints that there are runtime reliability guarantees
16:43 BingoBoingo http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1446968 << Aha, like someone giving you a wedie while you wear buttplug attached pants
16:43 asciilifeform phf nailed it.
16:43 ben_vulpes what was it, max dynamicism vs max strictness
16:52 phf haskell's answer was to pretend like von neumann machine doesn't exist, a goal at which it failed in various interesting ways
16:53 phf like the attempts to teach type system about integer overfloats
16:55 phf err, overflows, though float errors are another one
~ 1 hours 43 minutes ~
18:39 jurov http://hackingdistributed.com/2016/04/05/how-software-gets-bloated/ ada alone won't deliver us from this
↖
18:42 jurov "In my experience, software bloat almost always comes from smart, often the smartest, devs who are technically the most competent. Couple their abilities with a few narrowly interpreted constraints, a well-intentioned effort to save the day.."
~ 18 minutes ~
19:01 shinohai https://www.techdirt.com/articles/20160329/15041234047/71-want-dark-net-shut-down-showing-most-have-no-idea-what-dark-net-is.shtml
19:13 BingoBoingo ;;bc,stats
19:13 gribble Current Blocks: 406084 | Current Difficulty: 1.668515132827772E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 407231 | Next Difficulty In: 1147 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 0 days, 6 hours, 13 minutes, and 40 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
~ 28 minutes ~
19:42 BingoBoingo myspace was a knockoff http://fuckyeahstlpunk.tumblr.com/
19:43 asciilifeform jurov: monstrous idiocy
19:43 asciilifeform the solution to 'clever trick makers' is to kick in their teeth
19:44 asciilifeform and if they aren't in range - negrate.
19:46 jurov asciilifeform: ver well, so if you were tasked to do that "family" function you'd started to kick out teeth around?
19:54 gernika If asciilifeform ever accidentally ends up at the same hotel as a rails convention, I expect to see a lot of shattered teeth on the floor.
20:06 BingoBoingo $b 5
20:06 deedbot $b 5 is not a command.
20:11 asciilifeform i don't give half a shit re what sewer rats do, for so long as it isn't done in my house or where i have to see it.
20:12 asciilifeform i don't work with, e.g., ruby, or with people who do.
20:12 asciilifeform period.
20:26 mod6 hey, im just posting this here so we don't lost it -- this is from funk_ iirc, he never sent it to the list -- i'm told that it "works" but have never tested it myself: http://dpaste.com/2WTCSHV.txt
20:26 mod6 s/lost/lose/
20:26 ben_vulpes heh heh heh heh
20:27 mod6 :D
20:27 mod6 what up ben
20:27 ben_vulpes dope
20:27 mod6 cool.
20:27 ben_vulpes i've been wondering where that patch got off to
20:27 ben_vulpes NO CLIENTS NO PROBLEMS
20:27 mod6 werd to that
20:27 mod6 im tinkering around with lexical parsing with scheme for a sec here.
20:27 ben_vulpes going up to clojure/west to acquire a few more problems
20:28 mod6 been trying to plow through sicp and that compiler book. and ada.
20:28 mod6 dang huh
20:29 ben_vulpes mhm
20:30 ben_vulpes trains, bikes, conferences, may even have some sort of conversation piece done at that point
20:30 ben_vulpes keep running into the most inane shit getting it running tho
20:34 mod6 i've never fucked with clojure
20:39 asciilifeform mod6: some years ago, i attended a few meetings of a local clojurist society. ended up barfing and writing article, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42 (and sequel, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=374 ) that ~still~ get flamez, and - until recently - were among the top google results for subj...
20:40 mod6 heheh. nice.
20:43 mod6 what is the black magic behind the scenes? is it not based upon a lambda calc?
20:43 asciilifeform mod6: clojure compiles to jvm
20:43 asciilifeform mod6: similar to the old 'armed bear common lisp', except that it was written by a 'clever tricks' crackpot who added in ten truckloads of homegrown ustard idiocy
20:44 asciilifeform e.g., 'let's use square brackets for certain lists'
20:44 asciilifeform 'let's immutable-data'
20:44 asciilifeform etc.
20:44 asciilifeform this gave it a 'functional!111' and exotic flair and attracted hipster types
20:45 asciilifeform (same folks as do haskell, but an iq std. dev. more junior)
20:45 phf hicky is intentionally josling, i.e. designing language with mass appeal, knowing full well what he's doing
20:46 asciilifeform not only this, but 'omfg11111! i can sell lisp to the boss at the cube farm now, it will build to jvm, can mingle with java codez!11'
20:46 mod6 ugh. so wait, instead of a general lisp interpeter its compiled into jvm byte code? what abortion is this?
20:46 phf well, that
20:46 mod6 why would anyone do this?!
20:46 asciilifeform mod6: imho i described above, why.
20:47 asciilifeform but feel free to ask the aficionados.
20:47 asciilifeform or read the comments to my 2 articles
20:47 asciilifeform where they spew.
20:47 mod6 immutable data and square brackets?!
20:47 phf mod6: lisp is not always (and not usually) interpreted, i don't think there's anything wrong with targeting jvm, except for the fact that jvm itself is not good
20:47 mod6 tinyscheme is an interpreter no?
20:47 asciilifeform jvm, for instance, does not support the sane error handling common lisp users are accustomed to.
20:47 asciilifeform instead you get stack trace barf.
20:47 mod6 or are other common lisps actually compiled?
20:47 asciilifeform mod6: scheme is commonly interpreted.
20:48 mod6 huh
20:48 asciilifeform mod6: modern common lisps typically include a compiler.
20:48 mod6 oh didnt know
20:48 asciilifeform (it operates in what modern folk might call 'just in time' mode.)
20:48 mod6 ahk
20:48 asciilifeform the operation of the compiler in common lisp is generally semantically transparent.
20:49 mod6 i've only used one clojure application and it was a very haphazardly implemented docker-like thingy.
20:49 mod6 actually, we tore our hair out
20:50 phf actually there aren't many schemes that are interpreted, it's much more in vogue to compile them, since that's an easy thing to do
20:50 asciilifeform phf: bytecode-compile
20:50 phf unless we're talking compsci 101 scheme
20:50 asciilifeform but in some perverse cases (e.g., 'chicken') compiled to c, but then you lose eval
20:50 asciilifeform and it is not really a scheme any more.
20:53 mod6 i think this program was called 'uplift' or something - it guys employeed it to build vms quickly or w/e
↖
20:54 phf why perverse? it's pretty standard for scheme to be compiled to C, it's a classical cps technique, sort of a couple of next chapters away from how tinyscheme is a classical interpreter
20:54 asciilifeform no eval -> not scheme.
20:55 asciilifeform i regard it as false advertising.
20:55 phf that's silly
20:55 asciilifeform you typically don't get call/cc either
20:56 asciilifeform which makes it definitely more of a 'el cheapo undergrad lisp' than a scheme.
20:56 phf if you're buying your schemes from supermarket, sure, but my point is that technique is available as part of the dictionary. can do a hybrid from there, i.e. compiled subtrate
20:56 phf scheme48 does it that way, for example, with pre-scheme
20:56 asciilifeform i am aware.
20:57 asciilifeform eval-less lisp is a sterile thing, like a bullock or capon.
20:57 asciilifeform in some cases one wants this.
20:57 asciilifeform but the result is no longer lisp, as seen from the business end.
20:58 mod6 "Your last post shows how little you know about Clojure.
20:58 mod6 It’s dynamic, we rarely restart a JVM when coding/testing."
20:58 mod6 ARRRGGGGGHHHHH
20:58 asciilifeform enjoy mod6
20:58 asciilifeform that thing is still bringing in idiots, like flypaper, ~7 years (!) later.
21:00 mod6 "Wow. This is absolutely hysterical. Sorry dude, Clojure won. Get over it."
21:00 asciilifeform i personally don't give half a fuck re folks wanting to use bizarre shitlang with square brackets etc.
21:00 mod6 yeah dude, clojure won. so go fuck yourself.
21:00 asciilifeform the galling thing is the fraudulent advertising, 'this is lisp'
21:01 phf well, i think anything short of common lisp is not really a lisp :P (i.e. reader macros, restarts, pervasive defvar/defparameter clarity, well thought out function library, and such)
21:01 mod6 bro, if java were a pile of garbage why would a genius like Ellison and oracle still push it?
21:01 asciilifeform why, i wonder, not go whole hog and go microshit.
21:01 mod6 kekekek
21:01 asciilifeform per same argument.
21:02 mod6 these guys are crazy. i have to bite holes in my tounge every day.
21:02 mod6 "java has lambdas!!!!!1"
21:03 mod6 WELL THEN BROSEPH, EVERYTHING IS AWESOME!
21:03 asciilifeform even microshit, at this point, has some faux lambda thing.
21:03 phf it's not really a secret why java, every time someone like alf starts talking about cogs in the machine the inevitable answer is "duh", that was the whole point, josling says as much in his early interviews, including the famous "at least we got them to grok gc"
21:03 asciilifeform just as i was just now walking past a lot full of american shitcarz, and finally realized why 'mustang' has plastic grille over the rear window.
21:04 asciilifeform (it is, i think, imitating the rear engine block of 12 cyl 'ferrari' with its air cooled motor)
↖
21:04 mod6 im at the point of paranoia enough where if we can not write out our program mathemtically, mechanically, then there is some magic going on in there. and that freaks me out.
21:04 asciilifeform i bet pete_dushenski had this thought
21:04 mod6 i think for me, this is the allure of something like lambda calc.
21:04 asciilifeform phf: gosling
21:04 asciilifeform ?
21:05 phf yah
21:05 asciilifeform mod6: mr mold went and tried to derive a programming system from ski calc (isomorphic to lambda calc) and ended up with 'nock' and the rest.
21:06 asciilifeform mod6: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=103 << my version
21:06 asciilifeform imho his design sucks ballz
21:06 asciilifeform but the whole story is in the logz.
21:06 phf also mccarthy said a few times that lisp has not much to do with lambda calculus, he just completely misunderstood the papers (or rather was inspired by them)
21:06 asciilifeform aha.
21:07 asciilifeform lambda calc does not comport with physical machines well.
21:07 asciilifeform (it requires, at least in its known restatements, entities to appear and disappear in ways no physical object behaves in)
21:08 mod6 thx for the link
21:08 asciilifeform mod6: the denoument of the story, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1390
21:08 asciilifeform in case you missed. (it was long ago)
21:09 mod6 putting everything aside, really, I want a machine that will do stuff that is deterministic, mathematically provable.
21:09 asciilifeform the unfortunate thing is that there is not much that is mathematically provable in the general case about a program.
21:10 asciilifeform (virtually any attempt reduces to the halting problem)
21:10 mod6 is this like common knowledge that I missed by not attending a college?
↖
21:10 asciilifeform http://www.cgl.uwaterloo.ca/csk/halt << fortunately no need to blow yearz and megabux
21:11 asciilifeform (turing's halting theorem is really a generalization of godel's incompleteness t.)
↖
21:11 mod6 oh yeah, halting prob, ofc.
21:13 mod6 is this also related to church-turing's paper surrounding the entscheidungsproblem?
21:14 phf mod6: it's not clear at this point which school will bring sufficient clarity to this kinds of questions, without paying much more attention to current industry fads. see the thread about mit and sicp. they might mention halting problem in one class, and then go talking about proofs in Cog (if you're lucky or unlucky depending on how you look at it) in the next, with no explicit connection between the two
21:15 mod6 hmm
21:15 asciilifeform phf: if the halting theorem were actually taught as serious business, the coq-suckers would eventually have to fellate their pistols.
21:16 asciilifeform (for n00bz: it ~is~ called 'coq', i shit thee not)
21:16 asciilifeform ;;google coq
21:16 gribble Welcome! | The Coq Proof Assistant: <https://coq.inria.fr/>; What is Coq? | The Coq Proof Assistant: <https://coq.inria.fr/what-is-coq>; A tutorial by Mike Nahas | The Coq Proof Assistant - Inria: <https://coq.inria.fr/tutorial-nahas>
21:16 asciilifeform it.
21:16 phf i basically give up on puttin right letters in words
21:19 asciilifeform briefly back to clojure lulz thread, i have yet to run into a single clojure user who ever heard of armed bear common lisp
↖ ↖
21:19 asciilifeform they have the classical ustard affliction of 'we are the greatest people, we are the greatest empire, nothing like us ever was'
21:20 asciilifeform especially on this laughably short time scale, it is fall-off-yer-chair hilarious
21:20 phf to be abcl would've benefited greatly from making their java ffi as nice as the one in clojure. that is of course a marketing problem, and that's something hicky thought about very carefully
21:20 phf *to be fair
21:21 asciilifeform aha. and joseph smith thought about marketing very carefully, really beat the shit off the other zombie cults of his time and prior
21:21 asciilifeform him and, 100 y later, l. r. hubbard
21:21 asciilifeform also genius of marketing.
21:21 asciilifeform and a quintessential american.
21:22 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> (it is, i think, imitating the rear engine block of 12 cyl 'ferrari' with its air cooled motor) << it is
21:23 asciilifeform the java and c-sharp lambdas are precisely this plastic grille.
21:24 phf hmm, i thought c-sharp has a "real" lambda?
21:24 mod6 haha
21:24 phf pretty sure it captures, and you can mutate environment from inside of it
21:24 asciilifeform if it isn't first-class-data (i.e. a closure) it isn't a proper lambda.
21:25 asciilifeform but i have nfi, never microshat in csharp
21:25 phf c-sharp lambda is definitely first class, i'm trying to remember if it has weird restrictions like the python one
21:25 asciilifeform the py one is a sad, sad joke
21:25 asciilifeform also mustang grille.
21:26 phf well, even named closures are broken, like in java you can't mutate outside state
21:29 phf but to your genuis of marketing point, not having even a decenarian math within flying distance, i don't really see a way out of that one. guys design their systems for the masses, say as much in public, and yet somehow there's wide adoption, because one has to eat
21:30 asciilifeform i eat without committing public atrocities
21:30 asciilifeform and so can others.
21:31 asciilifeform likewise, there is also wide adoption of britney spears, and oprah.
21:31 asciilifeform neither is of any intellectual significance to folks with so much as half a squirrel's brain.
↖
21:31 asciilifeform nor is involvement with them in any sense obligatory.
21:31 asciilifeform even here in the heart of the idiot reich.
21:32 asciilifeform i am still waiting for the gasenwagen to come on account of my never having seen oprah.
21:33 phf and yet she exists within your mind as a placeholder for unwashed masses entertainment, if only we had tlp to write something about that
21:33 asciilifeform i actually had to stop and think, to pluck the name out of my nether brain.
21:34 asciilifeform spears is the one that stands for unwashed entertainment
21:34 asciilifeform o stands for something else, 'intellectual' wankery of the squirrel-brained
21:34 asciilifeform perhaps wrong character ?
21:35 asciilifeform let's see if mircea_popescu coughs up a better example when he wakes up.
21:35 phf i think that would be npr
21:35 phf and perhaps new yorker?
21:35 asciilifeform these, iirc, are for the capons, o. for the hens.
21:36 asciilifeform but overall the question calls for an expert entomologist and i am grossly underequipped.
21:37 * asciilifeform brb
21:39 phf fwiw my first exposure to clojure was a clojure job in finance industry, i did a couple of talks on common lisp within airshot of the hiring person from the team, that was way before 1.0, and we must've been one of the first corporations to use clojure, because hicky made a point of coming to a local tech conference and speaking, i've had beer with him a few times
21:39 phf that was also my first and last "corporate" job, which was interesting, i quit on the first day after coming back from burning man that same year. good times.
21:41 phf we had a sort of ritual there, we'd go to a whisky bar for lunch and try their top shelf, the goal was to see how sloshed you can get for after-lunch-standup without mgmt calling you out
21:44 BingoBoingo So, basically this job was like grad school, but with colleagues and paychecks that could support not borrowing to get sloshed?
21:46 phf right
21:47 BingoBoingo I bet the people around you were somehow more insufferable though.
21:50 phf then grads? probably, i mean it's twenty year olds making six figures to do fuck all in clojure
21:51 BingoBoingo yeah, gotta be worse
21:59 phf that's my impression of american "lucrative" corporate jobs though, because people that i know from that place went on to very similar places, and that's what they do. code as part of special clojure team in a company that's all java, or code in f# for a special f# team in a company that's all .NET. they get drunk during lunch, shit faced on fridays
22:01 phf go to tapas bars or whereverfuck
22:15 * mircea_popescu waves at logsd
22:18 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1447356 << this sounds good in theory, and is doubtless the case in many other places.
22:18 mircea_popescu doesn't work for the even discussion tho.
22:18 mircea_popescu that's just shitty spec/compiler and no more.
22:19 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-06#1447364 << i think he's exactly right.
22:22 mircea_popescu ;;ud josling
22:22 gribble http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=Bannan&defid=2522572 | Being touched and/or blessed by Bannan: "Bannanized". Refrence back to the definition for examples on how to use the word "Bannan." by Michael Josling July  ...
22:23 phf you boys wanna go josling
22:24 phf it's this guy https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Gosling
22:25 mircea_popescu so what is it ?
22:26 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447470 << doh!
22:28 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447491 << more like "well chosen college afterparties", at best.
22:30 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447504 << this is generally pretty funny, and more us-specific than anything. doing the nth reimplementation of thing X, never heard of n-1th and take offensew with a complete statement of X.
22:30 asciilifeform see l0gz!
22:30 mircea_popescu "3d cinema" for instance has "happened" about every 3rd decade since last century.
22:31 mircea_popescu it's not even specifically highly complex, intellectually-intensive things. fad diets consist of reruns.
22:31 asciilifeform for 'man' with the long-term memory of a fish, what else is life if not a series of 'reruns'.
22:32 mircea_popescu i don't think this is a man problem. imo this is a family problem.
22:32 mircea_popescu they decided to live separated by age groups ; unlike saner people in europe and arab world, they don't coerce young women into fucking old men
22:32 mircea_popescu as a result...
22:32 mircea_popescu lalaland.
22:33 phf mircea_popescu: gosling, the guy who designed java, is notable for recognizing the right thing, but intentionally committing an atrocity of java as a language for the corporate programming. in one of his interviews he says something along the lines of "at least we got ~them~ to use a garbage collector". before java gc was an explicitly lisp thing, which is also gosling's pedigree
22:33 mircea_popescu ah ah.
22:33 mircea_popescu somehow josling kept parsing as the name of an activity.
22:33 mircea_popescu like hogging.
22:33 asciilifeform earlier g was famous for a mutilated version of emacs.
22:33 asciilifeform and yes, quite like hogging.
22:34 mircea_popescu o you know what that is ?!
22:34 asciilifeform as i understand that was phf's usage.
22:34 mircea_popescu i thought it went out of style with the 50s household
22:34 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aha! BingoBoingo explained it!11
22:34 mircea_popescu oh
22:34 asciilifeform the art of fucking hogs ?
22:34 phf asciilifeform: i thought current emacs is gosling emacs derivative?
22:35 phf asciilifeform: that's too witty for me, i'm just typing all over the place
22:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no, it's a special party where everyone invites ugly chicks pretending they're pretty.
22:35 mircea_popescu then there's a denouement.
22:35 asciilifeform ah that
22:35 * asciilifeform had nfi this existed outside of fiction
22:36 mircea_popescu it was the last cork keeping the derpy femitards in check, really.
22:36 phf carrie ruined it for everybody
22:36 mircea_popescu once that was out, horseface exploded with her pretenses of being interesting and a writer like a sunned carcass.
22:37 mircea_popescu phf that's her isn't it ? the woman with a horse face ? carrie something ?
22:37 asciilifeform phf: possibly, https://web.archive.org/web/20030905055728/http://freeroller.net/page/vanessa/20030820
22:37 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447528 << this is not really warranted .oprah originally had a book club for blacks.
22:37 mircea_popescu not terrible.
22:38 mircea_popescu certainly no britni.
22:38 phf aah
22:38 asciilifeform http://www.gnu.org/philosophy/stallman-kth.html << rms re gosling.
22:38 asciilifeform 'In the summer of that year, about two years ago now, a friend of mine told me that because of his work in early development of Gosling Emacs, he had permission from Gosling in a message he had been sent to distribute his version of that. Gosling originally had set up his Emacs and distributed it free and gotten many people to help develop it, under the expectation based on Gosling's own words in his own manual that he was going to f
22:38 asciilifeform ollow the same spirit that I started with the original Emacs. Then he stabbed everyone in the back by putting copyrights on it, making people promise not to redistribute it and then selling it to a software-house. My later dealings with him personally showed that he was every bit as cowardly and despicable as you would expect from that history.'
22:38 phf mircea_popescu: i'm thinking the 1970 something movie
22:39 phf unless it's a sarah jessica parker joke that i'm somehow missing
22:40 phf http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0074285/
22:40 mircea_popescu having meanwhile googled the abomination, i can confirm it is sarah jessica parker
22:40 mircea_popescu and the role was carrie bradshaw
22:40 phf aah master entomologist
22:41 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Did you just google the string "horseface"
22:42 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo horseface whatshername
22:42 mircea_popescu it's on trilema.
22:42 mircea_popescu ;;google horseface whatshername
22:42 gribble "You're the guy who wasn't good enough to sling dope." on Trilema ...: <http://trilema.com/youre-the-guy-who-wasnt-good-enough-to-sling-dope>; Maxwell House Tomatoes - Food Gardening part 3 - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNXR85ec5Z4>; 10 Gorgeous Hollywood Actresses Who are Actually Moms! – All ...: <http://thingsrated.com/2015/05/13/hollywoods-10-most- (1 more message)
22:42 mircea_popescu there we go.
22:45 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447437 << that someone would use clojure for any kind of scripting activity is hilarious, as startup time measures in integer seconds
22:46 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-07#1447504 << this is patently false
22:46 mircea_popescu so thinking about it, phf really deflated my article. fact remains : cpu is cpu, it will do what it will do. whatever the fuck you call what it does, it's what it does. yes ada is well mistaken to speak wrong mathematics, but then again it's not a mathematics shop. you want to use your lengthier, thicker and more nodular math cock to mock the poor engineers, go ahead, but the fuck it does.
22:46 mircea_popescu a well.
22:46 mircea_popescu $up deedbot-
22:46 deedbot deedbot- voiced for 30 minutes.
22:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: see thread. the haskell folks went entirely with 'fuck the cpu, we'll plug our ears and eyes'
22:47 mircea_popescu yeah.\
22:48 mircea_popescu btw, you quoted the wrong rms bit
22:48 mircea_popescu In the years that followed I was inspired by that ideas, and many times I would climb over ceilings or underneath floors to unlock rooms that had machines in them that people needed to use, and I would usually leave behind a note explaining to the people that they shouldn't be so selfish as to lock the door. The people who locked the door were basically considering only themselves. They had a reason of course, there was somet
22:48 mircea_popescu hing they thought might get stolen and they wanted to lock it up, but they didn't care about the other people they were affecting by locking up other things in the same room. Almost every time this happened, once I brought it to their attention, that it was not up to them alone whether that room should be locked, they were able to find a compromise solution: some other place to put the things they were worried about, a desk t
22:48 mircea_popescu hey could lock, another little room. But the point is that people usually don't bother to think about that. They have the idea: “This room is Mine, I can lock it, to hell with everyone else”, and that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have.
22:48 mircea_popescu rms is the true enemy of the republic. he's the mr brian, if you will.
22:48 mircea_popescu no dickless washington bureaucrat is or could ever be as bad as this abominable imbecile.
22:49 asciilifeform rms lived whole life in motherfucking research institutes
22:49 mircea_popescu so ?
22:49 asciilifeform the terminals 'selfishly locked' belonged to the kolhoz.
22:49 asciilifeform different planet.
22:49 mircea_popescu "that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have." <<< mno, pure evil.
22:50 mircea_popescu rms is exactly what we must teach kids not to be.
22:51 asciilifeform rms was the only effective antidote to microshit.
22:51 asciilifeform you might not want antimatter in your refrigerator, but it has its uses.
22:51 mircea_popescu da fuck i care.
22:51 mircea_popescu antidote my ass.
22:51 mircea_popescu linux is still nowhere, and microsoft is still derping. he was no antidote. not anymore than mr. brian was antidote to 1984.
22:51 mircea_popescu he was just soporific.
22:52 asciilifeform linux is the only reason we have anything to converse about.
22:52 mircea_popescu we could just as well have conversed about the pike carrying gate's head.
22:52 asciilifeform still waiting' for this pike
22:52 mircea_popescu and for as long as there's a rms to fuck up things, we'll be waiting.
22:53 asciilifeform kindly illustrate this one
22:54 mircea_popescu in any conflict, there's moderate positions, and then there's extreme positions. if the moderate position is represented (such as here by rms), the problem is papered over, and things continue until we fall over.
22:54 mircea_popescu the correct solution generally is to strangle the moderates.
22:54 asciilifeform rms is moderate ?!
22:54 mircea_popescu yes.
22:55 asciilifeform i tell ya, i dun see it
22:55 mircea_popescu the soul of moderation. yes, very fucking good at marketing his supposed extremism
22:55 mircea_popescu and yet, "that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have."
22:55 mircea_popescu he is EXACTLY of the same mind as bill gates.
22:55 asciilifeform when palladium was but a mere microshit patent, entirely theoretical, rms was the ~only~ one to publicly ring the alarm bells.
22:55 mircea_popescu they both want : no ownership.
22:55 asciilifeform to much ridicule, recall.
22:55 mircea_popescu so ?
22:56 mircea_popescu wait, i'm supposed to get excited about the campbell can of soup on the left because it is blue ?
22:56 asciilifeform and he took a principled stand against every major technoscumbag to date.
22:56 mircea_popescu each and every time at issue was something irrelevant, he took a principled stand.
22:56 mircea_popescu but when it came to individual versus group, he took the usg stand. also every time.
22:57 asciilifeform example?
22:57 mircea_popescu "that is exactly the spirit that we must teach them not to have."
22:57 mircea_popescu fuckall. that is EXACTLY the spirit they MUST HAVE.
22:58 asciilifeform the really tragic bit re rms is that he became a shadow of a man after getting his mcarthur prize. ended up hiring programmers (!) and turning into a bureaucrat.
22:58 asciilifeform an intellectual ~0.
22:58 asciilifeform ~all of his actual lasting work (gcc) happened prior.
22:58 mircea_popescu i can't see him as anything more or anything else than a decoy.
22:59 asciilifeform mircea_popescu often says 'i don't deal in counterfactuals', and the principle seems quite in place here - it is not clear to me that a gcc-less 1980s would have led to anything other than a wintel os+compiler monopoly
22:59 asciilifeform (if you think os+hardware is dire...)
23:00 mircea_popescu and it is not clear to you that a brian-less 1984 would have lead to anything less than a complete domination right ? after all, at least he gave winston the book, right ?
23:00 mircea_popescu ffs.
23:00 asciilifeform draw, for my education, a 'genuine article rms'
23:01 mircea_popescu are you familiar with how "animal rights" moved from a laughable nothing to a point of policy ?
23:01 asciilifeform not very
23:01 mircea_popescu outright terorism. genuine article rms would have firebombed microsoft offices
23:01 mircea_popescu every week.
23:01 mircea_popescu "you work for microsoft, you get raped in the parking lot and left to bleed"
23:01 asciilifeform this didn't work so well for the fetus-rights folks
23:01 mircea_popescu so ?
23:01 asciilifeform just led to armed guards.
23:02 asciilifeform as, incidentally, with the fucking rats
23:02 asciilifeform we had machine-gunners at nih animal facility.
23:02 mircea_popescu derp-ass FOSS certainly didn't work for anybody.
23:02 mircea_popescu but go buy your girl a fur.
23:02 asciilifeform available by the megatonne.
23:02 asciilifeform just as meat in restaurant.
23:02 mircea_popescu ~see what she says~
23:02 asciilifeform she says 'whatever'
23:03 mircea_popescu darn!
23:03 mircea_popescu anyway. the more rms i read the less i like him. the more i think about rms, the less i like him.
23:03 asciilifeform rms was not built to be liked.
23:03 mircea_popescu that has exactly nothing to do. i don't like in that way.
23:03 asciilifeform and ftr i don't much care why he did what he did, terry davis wrote quasi-sane os because the devil personally ordered him to in his sleep
23:04 asciilifeform see what diff it makes.
23:04 asciilifeform i can certainly see that rms was ~ineffective~ post-1993 or so
23:04 asciilifeform would have to be blind, not to see this
23:04 asciilifeform but different question.
23:05 mircea_popescu i am not discussing that he was ineffective, ie, an engineering question. i am discussing that he is evil, ie, an ethical question.
23:05 mircea_popescu under a thin veneer of bullshit he hides all the socialism you could possibly wish for.
23:06 asciilifeform fella was redder than lenin, this was never mega-secret
23:06 mircea_popescu well so i dun like him.
23:06 asciilifeform fair.
23:07 asciilifeform i just happen to see lenin as a necessary forest fire, so that idiot dynasty could properly die
23:07 asciilifeform ditto rms.
23:07 mircea_popescu perhaps. now the counterfactuals clause is certainly kicking in
23:08 asciilifeform idiot entrenched dynasties spawn lenins.
23:08 phf (logging bot croaked in case people wondering why no updates, will fix in a bit)
23:08 asciilifeform as surely as usg letting tinder dry spawns forest fires.
23:08 mircea_popescu omaigerd phf losing lines is v bad.
23:09 ben_vulpes php bot never wronged me like this
23:09 phf there's always backup, so lines are not lost, but everyone is inconvened
23:10 phf hence me talking about "bot is brittle, don't update refs, etc."
23:10 mircea_popescu kk
23:10 * ben_vulpes unconvenes
23:10 mircea_popescu reconvene
23:11 * ben_vulpes reconvenes
23:11 phf $reconvene
23:11 deedbot $reconvene is not a command.
23:11 mircea_popescu $conbibe
23:11 deedbot $conbibe is not a command.
23:11 ben_vulpes sorry phf i only respond to un-prefixed commands
23:11 mircea_popescu $pizdets
23:11 deedbot $pizdets is not a command.
23:11 mircea_popescu well no, it's an observation.
23:11 asciilifeform l0l!
23:11 ben_vulpes lol
23:12 asciilifeform $пиздец
23:12 deedbot $пиздец is not a command.
23:12 phf fancy
23:12 phf $くそ
23:12 deedbot $くそ is not a command.
23:12 ben_vulpes for lo, trinque labors over the unicode
23:16 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: "random walk" has some /miserable/ css.
23:17 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: sure does.
23:17 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: pretty much best 'all in 1' article on subj i could find tho.
23:18 * ben_vulpes has been reading through it on the mobi term for dayz, but...miserable css makes mobrowser shit itself
23:18 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: try on 'ipad' or similar.
23:18 ben_vulpes this is /precisely/ that of which i complain
23:21 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: worked fine here.
23:21 asciilifeform just a bitch to scroll.
23:21 ben_vulpes "spreading"!
23:22 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: try rotating to landscape
23:23 asciilifeform i did find myself wondering if the author has one of those 16:8 displays or the like
23:23 ben_vulpes this is all immaterial. i don't disagree that it's a nifty "all in 1".
23:23 asciilifeform rotated, still retarded layout
23:23 ben_vulpes more so here
23:24 ben_vulpes i don't...just pointing out the hoops poor d00d had to jump through in order to publish the thing.
23:24 ben_vulpes output of which...still suxx.
23:37 phf bigger concern is not really losing entries, but having invalid id numbers. bot keeps log a b c d bot reconnects and misses a handful of messages g h i j, now in order to insert e f back into the log need to shift g h i j ids forward so if i references h, it's now refering f instead
23:37 phf i assume assbot handled that by having a short reconnect cycle and simply losing a message or two during an outage
↖
23:38 phf can of course not have a sequential id/entry mapping, but i think that breaks expectations
23:45 phf correct way is to have n bots running on different machines, connecting to different freenode hosts, talking to each other as they get messages, and then submitting a shared answer
23:46 phf two hard problems in distributed systems, 2. exactly once delivery 1. guaranteed order of messages 2. exactly once delivery
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