#trilema | 2019-08-09

asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/JmJQe/?raw=true

00:15

not complete yet, but what I was able to get done tonight at least. Currently eats a single dir full of ZNC logs (assumes the format of e.g. "2017-03-25.log"), puts the files in chronological order, and shits them all into a single .txt files

00:16

still left to do: needs to convert the calendar timestamps into the phf-style unix epochal format.

00:16

I can either pick it back up tomorrow night, or feel free to take that and do what you will

00:16

and oh hey missed http://qntra.net/2019/08/imperial-anti-v-unveiled-eat-more-star-topology/

00:17

grade-a lulz

00:17

lobbes: i can wait

00:17

asciilifeform: kk

00:17

*

lobbes off to bed. saltmines early tomorrow, then I'll pick it back up

00:18

goodnight lobbes

~ 1 hours 35 minutes ~

01:53

feedbot

http://billymg.com/2019/08/mp-wp-automated-testing-proposal-and-vpatch/ << billymg -- MP-WP Automated Testing Proposal and VPatch

01:57

billymg

^ i put together a quick POC for e2e testing on mp-wp. i have to sign off for the night and will be away from my main machine this weekend but will be checking the logs/comments if anyone has any feedback

~ 1 hours 8 minutes ~

03:06

incidentally, speaking of http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926225 : hanbot is taking teenaged / twentysomething females meeting the pizdi bill ; i presume asciilifeform is taking highly intelligent, shy & introverted males age-irrespective, math grad student prototype while diana_coman is taking inquisitive teenagers age irrespective and BingoBoingo latam... females ?

↖ ↖ ↖

03:06

Logged on 2019-08-08 16:00:50 mircea_popescu: /msg ChanServ SET #trilema ENTRYMSG To speak here you must be voiced by one of the lords. Talk to asciilifeform , BingoBoingo , diana_coman , hanbot , trinque

03:06

i dunno, i'm kinda guessing here. maybe it's worth it for everyone to spend a moment think about it, make some definite statements, so each can redirect accordingly ?

03:07

such that newbies can be met with "you should talk to X" instead of "i'm not interested, go away" or EVEN WORSE "[i'm not interested] but i'm going to go through the motions anyway, out of a feeling of obligation"

03:09

!qsrc

03:09

mp_en_viaje: my source code can be seen at: http://not.yet

03:13

will also be interesting to see what the intersection of demographics is / what's overlapped / what's left out. from a purely sociological pov.

03:16

also spyked, you never said anything re http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926226 ; is #spyked something you're serious about or not just yet ? i don't mean to make that call for you by sheer accident. anyone else ? Mocky ?

03:16

Logged on 2019-08-08 16:01:01 mircea_popescu: ^ anyone else actively maintaining a castle i forgot in the list ?

03:20

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926519 << imo stored otp is exceptionally excellent.

03:20

Logged on 2019-08-08 20:50:19 lobbes: iirc spyked actually already has a vpatch for a gpgism that uses the "stored otp" method

03:21

(idea is, you !!v a buncha times and safely decrypt, then store the otps use as needed. this was discussed years ago, it's good cuz it don't expose the keys on bot's iron)

03:22

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926531 -> got it, thank you! and readme seems quite very clear to me

03:22

Logged on 2019-08-08 22:11:01 asciilifeform: ^ diana_coman et al ^

03:23

I wish though I could actually access your blog from machine-other-than-toilet

03:23

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926527 << also jhvh1 and a111 please. and i guess candilust & tb0t eventually, though not yet. oh and "nsabot" is actually "snsabot" for some reason, i guess let's stick to it.

03:23

Logged on 2019-08-08 21:16:41 lobbes: http://trilema.com/2019/trilema-goes-dark/#comment-130823 << Seeing as the order was given to strike scriba from the list, I have also removed it from the TMSR bot directory (which means the command prefix "!$" is available again): http://lobbesblog.com/static/tmsr_bot_directory.html

03:23

is mimisbrunnr also lost at sea?

03:23

diana_coman, iirc ben_vulpes bot as well

03:24

!Qlater tell mircea_popescu remember you wanted to !!rate -10 princessnell http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-22#1924146

03:24

mp_en_viaje: The operation succeeded.

03:24

!q seen ben_vulpes

03:24

diana_coman: this command is not yet implemented.

03:24

diana_coman, which blog is that ? alf's ?

03:25

mp_en_viaje: yes

03:25

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-03-06#1900781 << last.

03:25

Logged on 2019-03-06 22:42:48 ben_vulpes: mircea_popescu: in theory the logs are endlessly educational! in practice, learning takes practice.

03:26

you know alf, !q seen is just http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log-search?q=f%3Aben_vulpes&chan=trilema

03:26

thus !qs f:ben works as well.

03:26

!qs f:ben

03:26

1000 results for "f:ben" in #trilema

03:27

5 months of quiet practice sounds almost zen

03:28

been a while yea

03:28

lobbes: what bot's key did you have in mind?

03:28

deedbot has no such own key atm.

03:30

diana_coman: saw on a recent post on a blog that you supposed some decay re: the deedbot operator.

03:30

I'm not going to stop operating the services I'm providing any time soon, and I'd inform folks present before doing so.

03:31

handing over feeds was iirc a quite public matter, where spyked picked it up.

03:31

I'll correct the help.html to reflect.

03:32

incidentally I have records of every IRC message deedbot has ever seen.

03:32

if this is interesting to asciilifeform lmk

03:32

personally I've been holding back on doing anything about the state of chats awaiting asciilifeform's crypto platform.

03:33

meanwhile in inspirational quotes, "Due to financial problems the filming of Eraserhead was haphazard, regularly stopping and starting again."

03:33

trinque: cool; and yes, change of feeds was public and I had simply forgotten of it hence went to check the bot's help page.

03:33

if someone this sensible says there exists no reliable basis for crypto dev, what do but await?

03:33

i'd very much propose a read of david lynch's biography to all the "oh, i'm unmotivated" middle class dorks.

03:33

it ~takes something~, something inside, to be someone. it's not a natural byproduct of tube socks and your mom loving you.

03:34

trinque, prolly should publish said records as a "testing harness", so new bots can be tested against ?

03:35

gladly

03:35

and if you care, i suspect the quietness of your blog is what's giving people creeps.

03:35

publish a breakfast shot sometime. it's so much better than nothing you can't imagine.

03:35

i know it ~sounds~ stupid. that's the problem with reality, the fundamentals sound stupid for no reason and shit that sounds smart usually is anything but.

03:35

I suppose I am an extremist and I wouldn't think of ^ by myself

03:35

a little bit.

03:36

see what i did there ? :D

03:36

sure

03:39

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926611 << perfectly reasonable stance ; never seen anything wrong with it (which is also why i never said anything about it).

03:39

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:33:07 trinque: if someone this sensible says there exists no reliable basis for crypto dev, what do but await?

03:41

only nowadays, with ffa and eucrypt & rest of stuff as they are to provide a basis, im starting talk of things such as http://trilema.com/2019/trilema-goes-dark/#comment-130709

03:41

we'll of course have to lock down a format for it, too.

03:42

but prolly before the end of the year we'll be wanting you to do that double-otp thing. that work ?

03:42

if this is becoming a reality, I am present for the transition to in-wot crypto, by god.

03:42

will be fucking nice, that's for sure.

03:43

GET RID OF HARDCODED LINE FEEDS HOLY SHIT WHAT THE FUCK IS WRONGGGGG with people!!!

03:43

just the fucking mind-rape of using computers these days, you know?

03:44

tell hanbot about it, i got her a t450 two days ago, she's ~still~ working on it.

03:44

the only reason to get on one is a republican reason.

03:44

i give it even odds ima walk into kitchen one day find it boiling peacibly on stove.

03:44

I'll fucking use their prebaked turd, or something fundamently not, but no incrementals ever again.

03:44

but see above re: extremism

03:45

it's a boiling fucking hatred.

03:45

i think you're exagerating, esp re your view of cuntoo work & effects.

03:45

ha, I was just writing a few lines re: cuntoo

03:45

it's absolutely not nearly as bad as it could be theoretically construed, which is still in from where i suspect you're pegging it atm.

03:46

behold mp_en_viaje, I have brought you a particular arrangement of dorkly turds.

03:47

this is like, ok, who is making intelligible calculators atm.

03:47

asciilifeform: what would it take to bake some peh?

03:47

an underlying os, is the problem

03:48

kinda why he wanted mips : could bake mips-peh-asic on the cheap atm.

03:50

isn't this what the republic needs, the place to talk that's intentionally constructed?

03:50

how much hardware does it cost to choose whom to talk to

03:50

it's complicated ; language being its own essence imposes all sorts of curliques downstream.

03:53

trinque, what happened to bv anyway ? you two still in touch at all ?

03:53

I think he wanted to do more, and so I.

03:54

we're struggling up into the money machine, and it has its costs.

03:54

I don't perceive an alternative.

03:54

well, is he ok ? how's texas working out ? same bfast point applies, i actually checked http://cascadianhacker.com/ few times doing darkness week

03:56

he's very well. I'll ask him if he wants to dust off the voice.

03:56

I don't for the record know what I'd say, cognizant that I ought to say.

03:57

while in kiev i met this brit (at the time masquerading as this local girl's sub, but w/e). as a joke, socially, i said i'm the most pretentious guy you'll ever meet, and when he asked for sauce i told him it says so right on my own blog. he found this a most excellent bon mot, "oh, that's perfect, you webpage nobody reads, not like the telegraph or something".

03:57

*

diana_coman read "this brat"

03:57

there's this default idea in the general populace, that a) somebody reads the raped-and-left-for-dead husks of ye olde gatekeepers and that b) it's still myspace days on internet, nobody reads "your webpage"

03:58

this is utterly fucking false, of course. the telegraph doesn't get in a month the daily readership of trilema. but i think the ~pervasiveness~ of the antiquated, and mistaken, worldview may rub off on people.

03:58

mp_en_viaje: if you were just cresting 7 fig in 2019 what would you throw yourself into?

03:58

so he sits and thinks "oh, nobody reads my blog". which is false.

03:58

as for me, I find myself in a mostly unintelligible froth of nonsense

03:59

trinque, understand the following points :

03:59

1) i am an utterly TERRIBLE font of advice re business. i made oddles of money in SUCH improbable, unlikely venues and circumstances -- admittedly, regularly, multiply, repeadedly, but SO FUCKING UNLIKELY -- i dare not presume what works for me works in any meaningful sense.

04:00

i don't mind saying, but keep in mind you're doing the equiv of asking columbus things about finding new continents. he ~doesn't know~. irrespective of what data may suggest, he was just there coincidentally, at right time.

04:00

I'm much more faces plus walls and pain tolerance.

04:01

2) i never made money, i always made power. the money was coincidental. i never made all the money there was to make or could. nor did i ever give much of a shit, i'm utterly not constructive, a world of nothing but mp will burn down.

04:02

and yet the republic is not nonsense.

04:02

which is just utterly wtf from the outside.

04:02

3) the whole of it was always hanging out with the cool people. i don't mean, "cool", as in, swag. i mean cool as in david lynch quote above, dork bought a 12 room house for $3500 in th worst gangland he could find for his wife and newborn kid and lived there, "the fear was palpable"

04:02

that's my idea of cool.

04:03

now given 1-2-3, what can i answer for you ?

04:03

nothing man, so I hope you like my cracks about 80s movies

04:03

lol.

04:03

because compared to that, it's where I think I stand!

04:04

ha

04:06

mine have been cutting deals, not so much raw power.

04:06

do you see this as some kind of innate item, or what

04:06

you ever saw city hall ?

04:07

film? no

04:09

this is curious, that "a world of mp will burn down"

04:10

it makes an immediate kind of sense that outside the edifice of meaning you need a destructive process

04:10

because the former naturally grows.

~ 15 minutes ~

04:26

you know i suspect i'm being ddosed ?

04:26

mircea_popescu: Sent 1 hour and 1 minute ago: <mp_en_viaje> remember you wanted to !!rate -10 princessnell http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-22#1924146

04:26

anyway, re city hall : it's a collection of platitudes, like any usian "deep" / "philosophical" movie. but it's a collection of ~well chosen~ platitudes, like the better such are, and in it incidentally pacino explains the problem with the dealmaking model :

04:26

you give out a little bit of yourself each time. and eventually, down the road, after enough dealmaking, you discover there's nothing actually left. this is very much the equivalent of alf's point re "only so many lines of code in one before insanity", except for business people, those who are too dumb to realise it on their own.

04:26

it's the intrinsic limit on dealmaking, and why the glib narcissist does well there -- very effectually defensive of the self AND not that much there to begin with. because that's always the best kept secret of the well defended fortress -- there wasn't so much inside to begin with.

04:28

good morning! /me is eating last night's logs

04:42

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926421 <-- fwiw I personally use CL because it's the lang that allows me to eat most coad/hr; although looking at the "cl on pc is a dead end" thread, I'd throw it away without any remorse were there a "tmsr lang"

04:42

Logged on 2019-08-08 16:59:01 diana_coman: and ftr I have no idea why did the other bots go for lisp anyway, did I miss somewhere the rationale for it?

04:45

also, I guess there's also the fact that despite all its problems, there's a pile of CL code (e.g. hunchentoot, cl-irc) that works... very similarly to how wordpress does the job, despite its size and other warts. maybe Ada could also find similar pieces of code for Ada, but tbh I haven't looked... yet?

04:49

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926462 <-- it does that indeed, as per http://coad.thetarpit.org/feedbot/feedbot/c-feedbot.lisp.html#L8 ; heck I'll set it to 2sec if that guarantees it won't fail; but yeah, fleanode provides no actual guarantees.

04:49

Logged on 2019-08-08 17:54:51 mircea_popescu: freenode wants 1s delay between msgs, and bot seems to try and do that but maybe add a 50ms buffer on top or somethign ?

04:50

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926684 << definitely ; hand cranked, too -- hit mp_en_viaje's last ip when i logged on this one. well, coupla minutes later, anyway.

04:50

Logged on 2019-08-09 04:26:19 mircea_popescu: you know i suspect i'm being ddosed ?

05:00

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926520 <-- for trilemabot-voicer it works this way: the !!up + decrypt steps are manually operated; then the operator stores the OTPs in a list and the bot automatically !!v's them when it needs to up itself.

05:00

Logged on 2019-08-08 20:51:45 asciilifeform: lobbes: what means 'not automatic' here ?

05:06

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926567 -> inquisitive teenagers age irrespective sounds about right (not that I'd turn out a hard-working, knowledgeable adult bent on doing useful work, age irrespective)

05:06

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:06:11 mp_en_viaje: incidentally, speaking of http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926225 : hanbot is taking teenaged / twentysomething females meeting the pizdi bill ; i presume asciilifeform is taking highly intelligent, shy & introverted males age-irrespective, math grad student prototype while diana_coman is taking inquisitive teenagers age irrespective and BingoBoingo latam... females ?

05:08

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926574 <-- #spyked is currently a drop-in replacement for thetarpit comments (not for long tho, I hope) and a bot testing ground (and possibly a bit noisy because of that). otherwise it's defo open to the lordship and newbs, altho I'm not yet actively doing anything to bring the latter in. I expect there's an overlap between the types that'll pop up in #sp

05:08

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:16:10 mp_en_viaje: also spyked, you never said anything re http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926226 ; is #spyked something you're serious about or not just yet ? i don't mean to make that call for you by sheer accident. anyone else ? Mocky ?

05:08

yked and #asciilifeform, tho who knows, maybe I'll get surprised.

05:09

speaking of which, asciilifeform, could you bring snsabot in #spyked? wouldn't hurt to have it listening there.

05:11

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926681 << simple case of http://trilema.com/2019/thelastpsychiatristcom-a-final-thought-on-chos-mental-illness-adnotated/#footnote_0_85643

05:11

Logged on 2019-08-09 04:09:28 trinque: this is curious, that "a world of mp will burn down"

05:11

i'm the sort of guy who ~had to think~ school is cool, or else wouldn't have gone. as a nine year old. i'm the sort of guy who told his father where to stick it. as a teen. there's currently a whole regiment of women literally dedicating their life to interfacing as much of the world as possible so i don't start burning it down, because yes, absolutely, the moment i'm not happy with how things are going there i am, jerry c

05:11

an in one hand and zippo lighter in the other.

05:11

this is obviously a charicature, for one thing the not giving a shit works both ways, for another i'm getting old, and so following. but i suppose you get the idea -- to borrow alf's metaphore a sackfull of lymphocites ain't getting very far in life.

05:12

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926678 << goes right back to "when is a bunch no longer a bunch" discussion. luck is not a property of the lucky, it's a property of the world.

05:12

Logged on 2019-08-09 04:06:57 trinque: do you see this as some kind of innate item, or what

05:13

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926690 << i suspect there may be fundamental reasons for which there simply can't be such a thing as "a tmsr lang"

05:13

Logged on 2019-08-09 04:42:15 spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926421 <-- fwiw I personally use CL because it's the lang that allows me to eat most coad/hr; although looking at the "cl on pc is a dead end" thread, I'd throw it away without any remorse were there a "tmsr lang"

05:14

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926703 << food for thought, not like there's a rush right nao

05:14

Logged on 2019-08-09 05:08:42 spyked: yked and #asciilifeform, tho who knows, maybe I'll get surprised.

05:16

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926534 << pretty nifty huh.

05:16

Logged on 2019-08-08 22:20:15 lobbes: pretty cool asciilifeform. ftr the speed at which you did this blows me away

05:17

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926535 << best sorta cheat, for one thing saves you the trouble of genesising those.

05:17

Logged on 2019-08-08 22:20:39 asciilifeform: lobbes: i 'cheated' by recycling components from front-end of phuctor, admittedly.

05:18

incidentally, lobbes or billymg i guess -- if either of you feel like futzing with it, having a logger bot that spits out days formatted for mp-wp into MPWP_posts table formatted into a category so one can just plug that into their blog will prolly be fantastic.

05:19

at refresh of bot's log page I notice the "snappy but visibly slower than phf's " aspect asciilifeform mentioned

05:19

someone can then configure a local ~eater~ (taking, eg, bot cvs dumps) and have the logs (of w/e chan interests them) directly on their mp-wp. which means -- including the selection thing etc.

05:19

diana_coman, i noticed it too, takes a coupla secs for a longer page.

05:20

what can you do, alf just not as good at computing as phf :D

05:20

onth now I still have to figure out where to stand a bot

05:32

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926566 << "After pressing you will need to run npm install from the project directory in order to pull down just under 100mb of depshits in order for this to work." top keks. left you a comment, too.

↖ ↖ ↖

05:32

Logged on 2019-08-09 01:57:33 billymg: ^ i put together a quick POC for e2e testing on mp-wp. i have to sign off for the night and will be away from my main machine this weekend but will be checking the logs/comments if anyone has any feedback

05:37

mircea_popescu, re. tmsr lang: could be one of two or three (or I dunno how many) langs, as long as tmsr owns 'em. atm there's no genesis for a cl compiler/interpreter (let alone e.g. networking code a la usocket, or a curl etc.), so... inb4 "fuck you spyked, I can't even compile sbcl, how do you want me to stand up your logotron"

05:37

ah, in that sense, tmsr-owned lang. yes

05:38

i took it as "one true computer lang", which is iffier.

05:39

ah. yeah, not sure there's such a thing. as asciilifeform pointed out, cl seems to handle string'isms better... and as mircea_popescu pointed out, cl doing tcpisms is not much different from python

05:40

what's your take on hutchentoot so far btw ? do you like it ?

05:47

mircea_popescu, purely from the user's point of view, it works reliably as far as I can see. and two days ago I wrote a simple mock "comment eater" for thetarpit and was reasonably productive. I haven't found any major flaws yet, so I'll continue working through the code.

05:48

alrighty.

05:48

i did say it infuriates me, which it does ; but then again im not using it, so.

05:52

my sense so far is that they (initially?) designed it to be a beast similar to Apache, rather than running behind it. it does multi-threading so it should be able to handle high loads pretty well. so if, say, I snipped the multi-threading bits out, I'd perhaps cut the code in half.

05:52

but I'm not sure that's the right way to go atm

05:56

high q multithreading is one of the few things cl has arguing for it

05:56

i wouldn't cut that.

05:58

logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926609 <-- incidentally, I started reviewing twin peaks about a month ago. and the part of it that is soap opera has aged horribly, while the part that is "david lynch mindfuck poetry" I still find brilliant. the man has a way of stirring frustration, I suspect he does it intentionally most of the time

05:58

grr, was re http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926609

05:58

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:33:06 mp_en_viaje: meanwhile in inspirational quotes, "Due to financial problems the filming of Eraserhead was haphazard, regularly stopping and starting again."

05:59

whole x-files thing was mostly attempt to live off THAT, much like whole "sopranos" nonsense was trying to live off tarantino's perfect killer, 5 minutes of footage.

06:00

the obnoxious part is that tarantino didn't get 50% of sopranos income ; nor lynch of xfiles. though THEY WERE OWED

06:00

seinfeld, meanwhile, DID get ~half of what nbc made off that piece of utter crap.

06:00

moral hazard of the finest imperial flavour.

06:02

well, if we count the shows that are seinfeld rip-offs (e.g. that charlie sheen thing), maybe not even half.

06:02

which was that ?

06:02

hm... two and a half men

06:02

i missed that one.

06:04

I saw a couple of episodes in a weekend (and another couple of "big bang theory") and I got the distinct feeling of "these guys are trying to remake seinfeld with another cast and variations on the ol' premise". i.e. they're not jews in NY, but nerds in LA or something like that

06:05

anyway. moron jew boy ended up buying a bunch of cars. in new york. that's what he needed a billion dollars for.

06:05

one can't help but wonder what'd lynch done with a billion.

06:07

spyked, amusingly, at the time seinfeld ran a bunch of morons were remaking it. "friends" (with that blonde dumb cunt, what's her name). it didn't work even then

06:08

nobody watched friends you'd want to talk to

06:11

lulz. apparently "friends" is somewhat popular in ro nowadays, there's marathon reruns on tv and I see all these chicks with brand t-shirts on the street... well, I'm assuming they watch it

06:12

romanians these days...

06:12

they're about as dumb as the ukrs, honestly. place's so fucked...

06:14

mircea_popescu, it happens that I have a blogpost in the works just on that :D

06:14

*

spyked bbl, cotton-bit-picking.

06:15

*

mircea_popescu be;lieves.

~ 40 minutes ~

06:55

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926669 << funny hpow that works, huh.

06:55

Logged on 2019-08-09 04:02:17 trinque: which is just utterly wtf from the outside.

06:57

but to answer the orig q : ~i~ would probably go to some kind of pashtun and do the artefacts trade thing, on the solid backing of imported gold. which is why i suggested qatar to mocky, travel to establish what became pizarro etc.

06:57

but, again, that's me.

06:59

not that i invented it, it's what rimbaud did, it's what plenty of people've already done. not usually studied in girl school for girls, but that's entirely a diff story. and no, it doesn't usually work out.

06:59

the point isn't whether "it works out" ; the point is that no old merchant from the age of sail, successful or otherwise, would've traded his life out for landlubbers'.

07:00

nor, experimentally, vice-versa.

07:01

"a thirst for adventure" or how did the golden age rpg story go. a band of misfits with a thirst for adventure.

~ 1 hours 32 minutes ~

08:33

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926224 << perhaps quarter dead, but days go to going to hospital for daily wounds dressing, sleeping a lot and going for walks, i have another sugery on monday to close me up.

08:33

Logged on 2019-08-08 16:00:01 asciilifeform: re mircea_popescu's postmortem -- perhaps phf still in bed half-dead, but wtf was errybody else's excuse.

08:33

phf: Sent 2 weeks, 3 days, 10 hours, and 10 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> plox to snarf vpatch in http://www.loper-os.org/?p=3420 , ty.

08:33

phf: Sent 1 week, 4 days, 13 hours, and 21 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> will [http://btcbase.org/patches] [patch viewer] ever get [http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-24#1924501] [fed] !? and how about [http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-22#1924232] You've given me 5 invalid commands within the last 60 seconds; I'm now ignoring you for 10 minutes. ?! where didja go, phf ? feeding the fish ?

08:34

asciilifeform: i'll genesis you the logger in the next two weeks. i'd rather you not waste time on it though. the design predates castles, so making it multichannel might be excessive amount of work. it's idiosyncratic, a product of the conversations from four years ago. your current approach seems a lot more solid.

08:34

there's no need to znc, the entire archive of logs is available here: http://btcbase.org/log-raw/ with 2016-03.txt being the last kako file. the only outlier is tmsr-logs-apr2012-oct2013.txt which is the dump mircea_popescu gave me of the prehistoric logs, which i have a custom reader for.

08:34

btcbase will continue running the way it has been so far, and i will continue putting vpatches into patches at least until there's a replacement

08:38

ah it is good to wake up to logs again

08:39

phf: the znc eater, if I am corrent in understanding, is for backfilling the other castle logs (#a, #o, #e, etc.)

08:39

also wb

08:43

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926600 << not in my mind; already on my iron. Like I said, it isn't an ideal system (there is a thread somewhere already on this), but both of my bots have their respective (dundundun) private keys sitting on the iron. I issue a command and the bots go and do the decrypting.

08:43

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:28:31 trinque: lobbes: what bot's key did you have in mind?

08:43

In my case, the cost of the iron getting popped and my bots losing their private keys did not seem high (really, I'd just make a new bot key and sign it from mine). Still, as I said, probably not ideal, especially when spyked already has the proper otp solution published.

08:46

But I'll still make a vpatch after this znc-eating work once I'm done. Should not take long anyways, so why not

~ 27 minutes ~

09:14

PeterL

http://btcbase.org/log/2019-08-09#1926545 << python has the advantage that development happens on python 3, so python 2 has become "depcricated" (aka stable)

09:17

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926582 << a111? I mean, btcbase.org IS still live and loggin'. But okay, done. Call commands "!~" and "!#" available again and directory updated

09:17

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:23:23 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926527 << also jhvh1 and a111 please. and i guess candilust & tb0t eventually, though not yet. oh and "nsabot" is actually "snsabot" for some reason, i guess let's stick to it.

09:18

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926606 << idk about you, but I have some amusing logs of messages to auctionbot.

09:18

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:32:00 trinque: incidentally I have records of every IRC message deedbot has ever seen.

09:21

!Qlater tell trinque http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pizarro/2019-08-09#1000025

09:21

Logged on 2019-08-09 00:44:50 thimbronion: BingoBoingo: I can't decrypt the invoice - it is encrypted to a key I don't have.

09:21

BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.

09:24

billymg

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926726 << thanks for looking, i'm about to leave town for a few days but will try to respond on my blog over the weekend

09:24

Logged on 2019-08-09 05:32:19 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926566 << "After pressing you will need to run npm install from the project directory in order to pull down just under 100mb of depshits in order for this to work." top keks. left you a comment, too.

09:26

PeterL

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926544 << what I was pointing at ^, bot did not read. Is there a reason btcbase and nosuchlabs logs do not cut the day at the same point?

09:26

Logged on 2019-08-08 22:24:24 asciilifeform: expects that before long, we'll find out that the pythonisms can't in fact be reliably reproduced, because 'ecosystem updated' or whateverthefuck rots

~ 1 hours 37 minutes ~

11:03

PeterL: clocks.

11:04

hrm anybody else see that spurious 0x01 ?

11:04

or just in my client

11:05

incidentally this is yet another weakness of pythonism. the utf8 support is a voodoo incantation and does whothefuckknows what.

11:06

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926567 << in practice asciilifeform will work with anyone who has hands growing from the right organ; but the folx mircea_popescu described are more likely to end up in #a, i suspect indeed

11:06

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:06:11 mp_en_viaje: incidentally, speaking of http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926225 : hanbot is taking teenaged / twentysomething females meeting the pizdi bill ; i presume asciilifeform is taking highly intelligent, shy & introverted males age-irrespective, math grad student prototype while diana_coman is taking inquisitive teenagers age irrespective and BingoBoingo latam... females ?

11:07

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926571 << will show correct link when the bot is next reset.

11:07

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:09:22 mp_en_viaje: !qsrc

11:07

!q uptime

11:07

asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 0d 19h 31m

11:07

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926578 << this sounds workable

11:07

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:21:27 mp_en_viaje: (idea is, you !!v a buncha times and safely decrypt, then store the otps use as needed. this was discussed years ago, it's good cuz it don't expose the keys on bot's iron)

11:09

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926581 << i'ma guess the dynamic ip thing is the headache there. i'ma be moving the www soon, tho. as soon as i figure out to where...

11:09

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:23:02 diana_coman: I wish though I could actually access your blog from machine-other-than-toilet

11:09

Logged on 2019-07-19 16:57:44 asciilifeform: peeks at the nfs forum crapola; nao with 'nya-nya' from peanut gallery, bonus.

11:09

Logged on 2019-07-18 21:34:14 asciilifeform: reluctant to move www to piz, it's a fairly high traffic item, possibly adds up to half a trilema's (complete with regular ddosism)

11:09

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926582 << someone squatted nick 'nsabot' on fleanode.

11:09

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:23:23 mp_en_viaje: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926527 << also jhvh1 and a111 please. and i guess candilust & tb0t eventually, though not yet. oh and "nsabot" is actually "snsabot" for some reason, i guess let's stick to it.

11:10

asciilifeform: yes, the dynamic ip seems to be the headache there indeed

11:10

aha

11:10

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926594 << right. will prolly end up doing just as i did with search knob, 'syntactic sugar'

11:10

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:26:35 mp_en_viaje: you know alf, !q seen is just http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log-search?q=f%3Aben_vulpes&chan=trilema

11:11

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926606 << wb trinque ! and yes, potentially useful, the moar the merrier, to fill whatever gaps in archive

11:11

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:32:00 trinque: incidentally I have records of every IRC message deedbot has ever seen.

11:12

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926616 << asciilifeform for one would defo enjoy to read trinque's adventures in petro biz or where it is that he's adventuring

11:12

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:35:10 mp_en_viaje: and if you care, i suspect the quietness of your blog is what's giving people creeps.

11:13

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926643 << possibly oughta elaborate ?

11:13

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:47:42 trinque: asciilifeform: what would it take to bake some peh?

11:14

asciilifeform: my q (if perhaps different from trinque's) is what would it take to have peh-iron?

11:14

aaah

11:14

was just about to answr

11:16

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926645 << if were actually 'cheap', already would have baked. possibly i did not explain the subj properly. mips is 'cheap' in terms of ~time~ , it is a classic and very compact design with existing compiler support. but to bake physical asic (on practical scale, rather than 'here's 5 dies that maybe-work for 5k ea. and we hope you know how to solder gold wire under microscope' -- re

11:16

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:48:05 mp_en_viaje: kinda why he wanted mips : could bake mips-peh-asic on the cheap atm.

11:16

mains outside of asciilifeform's lunch money budget )

11:18

diana_coman: depending on meaning of 'peh iron', could be quite inexpensive ( e.g. to plant it on commonplace battery-powered item, e.g. pic32mz, is entirely possib. ). but possibly this is not what diana_coman was thinking of, but instead the full orchestra where e.g. 4096b multiplier for fast rsa ?

11:21

the former would cost like FG; the latter... erry year or so i go an' dig, so far to end up empty-handed

11:21

Logged on 2018-11-30 20:41:34 asciilifeform: last yr ( and before ) i talked to a coupla ic fabs, in various countries. they all not only run winshit but demand that you use their 'standard cells', which available (surprise?) under nda

11:22

asciilifeform: the main issue is that I'd much rather run peh not-on-pc, pretty much

11:23

diana_coman: one painful way in which ic fab differs from softwarisms is that failure is ~very~ expensive. buggy proggy you can throw away, you lost a day or however long it took to write. buggy ic is a coupla 100k (usabux) in the hole.

11:24

diana_coman: peh-on-batteries is defo part of the planned sequence. (last ch! in fact.)

11:24

I still need to run tests and timings re "fast" but as a principle, it's not the first requirement (rsa is not for speed anyway)

11:24

but, naturally can expect that will run considerably slower than on pc. (my current estimate, factor of 30 or so, on the extant chips)

11:26

well, looking forward to see it and time it

11:26

diana_coman: whole story of how asciilifeform ended up with peh , if you recall, at one pt asciilifeform wanted to bake a battery-powered 'gpg replacement'. then went and saw what gpg actually consisted of, and found that not only koch liquishit, but broken on ~algo~ level

11:27

(i.e. whatever one might plug 'battery gpg' into, could trivially extract privkey via timing side channel)

11:29

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926651 << i wish trinque and ben_vulpes to have moar luck than i, with this scheme ( asciilifeform went ~twice~, both times lost shirt. )

11:29

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:54:14 trinque: we're struggling up into the money machine, and it has its costs.

11:33

*

asciilifeform will eat remaining log (heavy!) after tea; brb

~ 19 minutes ~

11:53

feedbot

http://thetarpit.org/posts/y06/09a-maramures.html << The Tar Pit -- Maramure

~ 37 minutes ~

12:30

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926664 << there is however pasteur's infamous 'luck favours the prepared'.

12:30

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:59:56 mp_en_viaje: 1) i am an utterly TERRIBLE font of advice re business. i made oddles of money in SUCH improbable, unlikely venues and circumstances -- admittedly, regularly, multiply, repeadedly, but SO FUCKING UNLIKELY -- i dare not presume what works for me works in any meaningful sense.

12:33

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926667 << 'Мы на горе всем буржуям Мировой пожар раздуем!'(tm)(r)(a. blok) . sometimes exactly what is needed, is flamethrower. can't speak for others, but this is what asciilifeform orig found appealing about mircea_popescu . there's no shortage of what needs burnin'

12:33

Logged on 2019-08-09 04:01:43 mp_en_viaje: 2) i never made money, i always made power. the money was coincidental. i never made all the money there was to make or could. nor did i ever give much of a shit, i'm utterly not constructive, a world of nothing but mp will burn down.

12:36

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926692 << principal weakness (and strength! interestingly) of ada is the total lack of support for questionable legacy kludges .

12:36

Logged on 2019-08-09 04:45:56 spyked: also, I guess there's also the fact that despite all its problems, there's a pile of CL code (e.g. hunchentoot, cl-irc) that works... very similarly to how wordpress does the job, despite its size and other warts. maybe Ada could also find similar pieces of code for Ada, but tbh I haven't looked... yet?

12:36

Logged on 2019-08-08 17:02:19 asciilifeform: you can't even concat 2 strings w/out 'secondary stack'ism

12:36

Logged on 2019-08-08 17:00:54 asciilifeform: would have to write pg end also !

12:37

i strongly suspect that 'logtron in ada' would inescapably contain the proverbial 'buggy 80% reimplementation of common lisp'(tm)

12:39

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926693 << mine seems to be working happily with 0.1s transmit delay. but indeed fleanode provides no guarantees, tomorrow they could just as easily decide that snsabot sending 4 shots in 0.5s is 'flood'.

12:39

Logged on 2019-08-09 04:49:48 spyked: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926462 <-- it does that indeed, as per http://coad.thetarpit.org/feedbot/feedbot/c-feedbot.lisp.html#L8 ; heck I'll set it to 2sec if that guarantees it won't fail; but yeah, fleanode provides no actual guarantees.

12:40

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926695 << could easily be fleanode per se; they even advertise 'all new connections will be portscanned! for yer own good!'

12:40

Logged on 2019-08-09 04:50:29 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926684 << definitely ; hand cranked, too -- hit mp_en_viaje's last ip when i logged on this one. well, coupla minutes later, anyway.

12:41

i defo saw impressive storm of packets when was testing the bot locally.

12:43

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926712 << it is entirely possible to have sane ~back end~ on which you, e.g., write in a lisp-flavoured skin when mangling trees, and a fortran-flavoured skin when want to run in constant space/time with fine control of flow; the bolix people -- had. in fact, arguably all machines have (presently piss-poor) incarnation of this concept, it is... the machine arch itself.

12:43

Logged on 2019-08-09 05:13:06 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926690 << i suspect there may be fundamental reasons for which there simply can't be such a thing as "a tmsr lang"

12:43

12:46

the 'pc micro revolution' popularized an imho extremely braindamaged concept of what is 'comp lang'. specifically, where folx think that the front syntax is somehow logically glued to the internal mechanics ( whereas is merely happenstance, pc provides such broken bedrock abstractions that forces erry new lang author to write compiler 'from 0' as if year were 1959, but this is merely happenstance, rather than logical inevitability )

12:47

witness how yer box has 9000 half-broken 'soft' garbage collectors (sometimes running in impedance-mismatch ~against~ one another) instead of 1 working iron-powered gc, etc.

12:51

pc is quite literally analogous to the 1880s portrait of mains current, where in nyc erry mansion, factory, has shed with steam engine chugging away (when the stoker remembers to stoken, and when the leather drive belt not rotted yet..)

12:52

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926723 << for some 'heavy' log days i get up to 5s load

12:52

Logged on 2019-08-09 05:19:59 mircea_popescu: diana_coman, i noticed it too, takes a coupla secs for a longer page.

12:54

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926724 << all laffs aside, he had the seriously better proggy (and with 3y+ of massage, too)

12:54

Logged on 2019-08-09 05:20:29 mircea_popescu: what can you do, alf just not as good at computing as phf :D

12:55

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926731 << not quite. if snsabot were a cl proggy, i would not need to restart it and lose connection to do knob turn.

12:55

Logged on 2019-08-09 05:39:17 spyked: ah. yeah, not sure there's such a thing. as asciilifeform pointed out, cl seems to handle string'isms better... and as mircea_popescu pointed out, cl doing tcpisms is not much different from python

12:55

Logged on 2019-08-09 11:07:11 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926571 << will show correct link when the bot is next reset.

12:56

python is very firmly an artifact of the 'batch processing' era.

12:56

punch yer card deck, throw in hopper, pray.

12:57

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926736 << threading seems like a luxury until you discover that some operation is in fact blocking in whatever case, or when you find that you want to meaningfully recover from crash, etc

12:57

Logged on 2019-08-09 05:52:12 spyked: my sense so far is that they (initially?) designed it to be a beast similar to Apache, rather than running behind it. it does multi-threading so it should be able to handle high loads pretty well. so if, say, I snipped the multi-threading bits out, I'd perhaps cut the code in half.

13:00

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926774 << wb, phf ! i ftr am glad to see you back, and will defo read yer proggy (and crib from, to make modernized / rationally-designed logotron sans voodoo, when time permits)

13:00

Logged on 2019-08-09 08:34:02 phf: asciilifeform: i'll genesis you the logger in the next two weeks. i'd rather you not waste time on it though. the design predates castles, so making it multichannel might be excessive amount of work. it's idiosyncratic, a product of the conversations from four years ago. your current approach seems a lot more solid.

13:02

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926776 << i can't speak for erryone, but, in case wasn't clear, asciilifeform spends HOUR+ (and sometimes several h) erry single day of the week reading coad at btcbase/patches ! it is quite essential tool , fully 20-30% boost of brain to asciilifeform . that being said, would be imho a++ if you found how to make it eat patches/sigs through a www-based hopper, like jurov's earlier it

13:02

Logged on 2019-08-09 08:34:17 phf: btcbase will continue running the way it has been so far, and i will continue putting vpatches into patches at least until there's a replacement

13:02

em. that way could fill it up with recents (e.g. diana_coman's v sigs; asciilifeform's last 'm' patch/sig) w/out hassling phf

13:03

phf: alternatively , genesis the thing and i'ma maintain it. i might be the only daily user, and would be entirely fair for asciilifeform to carry the work of maintaining the thing.

13:04

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926775 << while would still like znc-eating & similar to close gaps, must note that phf's bot has the closest to 100% time coverage of afaik any. so defo will make use of.

13:04

Logged on 2019-08-09 08:34:09 phf: there's no need to znc, the entire archive of logs is available here: http://btcbase.org/log-raw/ with 2016-03.txt being the last kako file. the only outlier is tmsr-logs-apr2012-oct2013.txt which is the dump mircea_popescu gave me of the prehistoric logs, which i have a custom reader for.

13:05

( granted it only covers #t afaik )

13:05

*

asciilifeform finally eaten (1st pass!) of this spinebreaker log!

13:08

btw re ddos -- mircea_popescu i think yer site also is being dos'd

13:08

i get 5 dropped conns to erry successful load..

13:08

and hm seems to be stalled entirely just nao

~ 21 minutes ~

13:30

feedbot

http://qntra.net/2019/08/diy-if-you-want-a-gun-you-can-print-it-guru-cody-wilson-pleas-and-enters-sex-offender-registry/ << Qntra -- DIY "If You Want A Gun You Can Print It" Guru Cody Wilson Pleas And Enters "Sex" Offender Registry

~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~

14:35

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926704 << i'ma put it in on next reset. loox like i'll have to adjust the www template tho, it's run, lol, outta horiz. space! in the chan bar.

14:35

Logged on 2019-08-09 05:09:42 spyked: speaking of which, asciilifeform, could you bring snsabot in #spyked? wouldn't hurt to have it listening there.

~ 36 minutes ~

15:12

hello. asciilifeform: i like the new logger, esp the multi-chan support

15:12

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926429 << well, if you're willing to use heathen libs, there are at least 2 pgsql bindings libs, but dunno about the quality (most likely with gnat.socket inside, yes).

15:12

Logged on 2019-08-08 17:00:59 asciilifeform: there aint one.

15:13

bvt: funnily enuff, i actually tried adacore's -- wouldn't build

15:13

on any of my gnats.

15:13

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926433 << you don't actually need to concatenate anything as long as writev(3) is there. whether any gnat lib uses it -- dunno. at least nginx does use it (http://archive.is/QKjvD#selection-2735.36-2861.26), and imo this is a correct approach to the problem -- let kernel do the copying, if it needs to

15:13

Logged on 2019-08-08 17:02:10 asciilifeform: diana_coman: principal weakness of ada in re this problem set (at least the ada 'specified' by asciilifeform) is stringism handling

15:13

( cuz -- naturally -- wants dozen or so deps, each 1 weighing moar than sum total of what asciilifeform ever wrote, lol , and consisting of ??? )

15:13

asciilifeform: did not try myself

15:14

tbh i would not mind attempting an irc bot in ada, but it seems more like leasure activity so far.

15:14

bvt: how do i throw into a tcp socket a formatted fetch of log, consisting of unknown length of "<a ... " + blah + "</a>" etc, w/out string munging ?

15:14

or do i misunderstand 'don't need to concatenate'

15:14

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926442 << the lag is noticable, but i'd say it is entirely usable.

15:14

Logged on 2019-08-08 17:05:07 asciilifeform: snsabot and its www end are imho usably snappy, but you can tell that they run in interpreter, visibly slower than phf's

15:15

asciilifeform: you make a chain (linked list of buffers with content), pass it's head to kernel

15:15

bvt: imho it's just barely usable, and would defo benefit from rewrite in compiled lang where can turn knobs in realtime (i.e. cl)

15:16

you still need to format the numbers, etc, but for this can always know upper bound

15:16

linked list WHERE

15:16

don't tell me, 'in heap'

15:17

i suppose it is theoretically possible to calculate upper bound... irc msg is only N chars max; and if full of nuffin but <a></a><a>...... but who can do this and guarantee no mistake ?

15:17

not to mention what is upper bound for # of msgs in day ?

15:17

there aint one

15:17

well, for most of format strings you know the number of formatted elements, right. re memory allocator -- an arena allocator is typically used, and file data can be mmaped

15:18

so imho lost cause to try and calculate max size of page , even in such simple item as logotron

15:19

this is not to say that 'impossible to logotron in ada', but that result will be 1) gargantuan 2) ~unreadable 3) likely buggy despite herculean effort

15:19

Logged on 2019-08-08 17:01:07 asciilifeform: before long we're looking at 10,000ln lol

15:19

re logotron with arbitrary number of messages - can't you send data in a loop? otherwise the problem touches all levels of net stack -- can't have arbitrary sized packets either

15:20

bvt: could, in principle.

15:20

i think i mentioned, considered writing one. but then realized that will have to write tcpism and postgresism glue from 0.

15:20

cuz the ancient ones in fact ~do not build~ anywhere that i could get hands on.

15:21

example of such glue -- asciilifeform's udp lib

15:21

there's an (ungenesis'd, cuz tripped on gnat bugginess) mmap glue also

15:22

bvt: i do not presently know what would have to be done to use utf8istic strings in gnat, either

15:22

( afaik you cannot use ~any~ of the existing string ops for these... would have to handle as naked bytes )

15:23

and would not even be able to "<a>" + whatever + "</a>" etc, i.e. can't use the existing sugar for string constants at all

15:23

i did some minor nginx plugin development -- the linked list approach was not bad, the only op i had to do with actual buffer was splitting it across chains links to insert data between.

15:25

my point , again, is not that 'cannot be done' , but that http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926853 .

15:25

Logged on 2019-08-09 12:37:27 asciilifeform: i strongly suspect that 'logtron in ada' would inescapably contain the proverbial 'buggy 80% reimplementation of common lisp'(tm)

15:25

i don't think there is a way out of treating utf8ism as raw bytes, other than finding a heathen library

15:25

damn near anyffin 'can be done'. full sized eiffel's tower from toothpicks, ~could~ be built.

15:27

but i strongly suspect that 'ada logtron' will consist mostly of non-humanreadable hex constants , and the pg glue will be eating null-termed c strings , and generally the result will not be a thing you 'would fly in it? i wouldn't walk under it!'(tm)(r)(h. hughes)

15:29

nao if you throw out pg and sqlism, and make mmap-based db from 0... then possibly. but again goes back to '80% reimplementation of commonlisp' territory.

15:31

this is the 'flip side of the medal' -- sometimes the given abstractions are not a good fit for $problem. picture e.g. attempt to ffa in commonlisp, where you'd have to bend over backwards to make sure you ~never~ cons

15:31

it is doable, and e.g. bolix's device driver coad was written that way. but is deep magic.

15:32

i would actually expect that pg protocol does not use 0terminated strings. re 80% of CL -- inside of it's implementation you'd find same shit. dunno how it would be different from using heathen libs

15:32

bvt: the c glue defo uses

15:32

and how else wouldja propose to talk to it.

15:32

( tcp?! )

15:36

re general topic of 'string munging problems' -- they are plentiful and prolly inescapable, and i suspect there could be win from reviving an item like snobol (where ~sane~ abstractions specifically for stringism, rather than seas of regexp)

15:36

ftr 95% of asciilifeform's sweat to make snsabot + logotron , went into debugging regexpolade.

15:38

true, but i don't find '80% of cl argument' too convincing; if want comfort, sure, use cl/python; want hard memory limits and gcc performance, can use ada, it won't be fundamentally dirtier (due to tcp and db stuff), just more boilerplate code

15:40

i suspect the glue for pg alone (i.e. if pg disgorges eggog, to produce proper ada-compat. exception, rather than crash), not to mention utf8ism, would weigh like ten ffa's

15:44

nao, a general-purpose strings-and-streams-munging script lang ~might~ be worth implementing in ada.

15:44

sorta what i suggested to spyked at one pt

15:44

!q s adalisp

15:44

24 results for "adalisp" in #trilema

15:45

but it would not be a single evening's, or , i suspect, even single year's, weight of work.

15:46

and would consist largely of c glue.

15:48

re pg - yes, you'd have to implement the protocol; and serialization/deserialization is error prone and typically takes lots of code (i.e. too much), agreed

15:50

aand that's just pg. now consider how to deal with tcp.

15:50

could try to use ada's 'streams' model. but then must decide, how to represent ~all~ of the possible tcp hiccups.

15:51

( what does a 0-length read mean in re a stream ? )

15:51

my 'udp' lib was orig. gonna be a 'udp and tcp' lib. but very quickly realized...

15:54

on posix, don't think there is way out of exposing fds and syscalls

15:56

problem isn't 'no way to expose', they're perfectly exposed, e.g. 'M' uses 100% raw syscalls for all i/o . problem is the fundamentally ill-conceived abstraction, where you don't ~only~ have the stream, but also a barely-known and large set of possible out-of-band eggog conditions

15:58

lol this logger's like ye olde teletype machines, feeds lines palpably

15:58

clackclack

16:00

asciilifeform: until the day for tcp to die arrives, you'd still have to interact with tcp warts in that or other form

16:00

bvt: indeed

16:00

bvt: it's a headache that'll be around for good long time, hence worth to discuss

16:01

mircea_popescu: recall the orig. pythonistic backend of phuctor, btw

16:01

( geological-time ! )

16:02

kinda reminded me of ye olde telex days

16:02

early ro stock trading in the 90s used old commie era telexes. it was quite exciting

16:02

these are even still used, in various ex-sovok places

16:03

they're ~eternal.

16:03

( an' when output is to be made hardcopy anyway, to give to elderly general, why not telex, even ! )

16:04

*

asciilifeform once saw a rare photoreportage of ru army hq and on what gear runs. 100% telex, made in ddr. )

16:05

not bad

16:06

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926500 << i think get your point; though tbh, from my reading of linux it's not clear that urandom uses separate entropy pool, as i understood so far urandom uses the same pool as random, just ignores all 'entropy' measures (i still did not quite load that part in head, so this is not final info).

16:06

Logged on 2019-08-08 18:58:36 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, did the fg / kernel thing ever make sense to you ?

16:06

telex & friends have substantial wins over 'modern' -- broken telex can be repaired by sweaty d00d with screwdriver, and out of improvised parts. whereas what's it even mean to 'repair' e.g. pc, esp. in condition where the parts not even made outside of taiwan.

16:08

iirc mircea_popescu had this vintage piece, re 'technology vs magic' . where the former is something you can meaningfully take apart and repair, making new piece with lathe if you must; whereas the latter... can only pray

16:09

lol vintage, from 2019?

16:09

bvt, just about. btw, if you feel like reimplementing that use the hash-seed method

16:09

ru army philosophy (inherited from sovok) holds that 'magic' is poison.

16:09

( 'magic' tends to end up in vehehery short supply, in wartime )

16:09

bvt: i think i read it in an earlier, ro piece. that grr cannot just nao find.

16:09

i think it was more like 2013

16:10

at least it was reiterated here http://trilema.com/2019/so-what-is-the-man-saying/

16:11

asciilifeform, fuck, this is exact translation

16:11

ha

16:14

bvt will have to believe this was also a ro piece years ago

16:15

it is possible that i dreamed it

16:15

i just can't find it is all.

16:15

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926692 << there is ~20 years old 'AWS' https://github.com/adacore/aws

16:15

Logged on 2019-08-09 04:45:56 spyked: also, I guess there's also the fact that despite all its problems, there's a pile of CL code (e.g. hunchentoot, cl-irc) that works... very similarly to how wordpress does the job, despite its size and other warts. maybe Ada could also find similar pieces of code for Ada, but tbh I haven't looked... yet?

16:15

asciilifeform, nah, that was exact translation.

16:15

bvt: it was 1 of the items i tried to build. no dice.

16:15

dies in ocean of liquishit.

16:20

iirc it is buildable without xmlada and all the crazy deps with some tweaks; at least i did build it once and run one of the examples

16:20

bvt: might be worth writing about how did this feat

16:22

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926784 << yes, until you discover you can no longer get it to run.

16:22

Logged on 2019-08-09 09:14:38 PeterL: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-08-09#1926545 << python has the advantage that development happens on python 3, so python 2 has become "depcricated" (aka stable)

16:22

exactly so

16:22

right ?

16:23

already have dark premonitions re subj, even.

16:23

Logged on 2019-08-08 22:24:24 asciilifeform: expects that before long, we'll find out that the pythonisms can't in fact be reliably reproduced, because 'ecosystem updated' or whateverthefuck rots

16:24

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926791 << for my cyruosity why did this go to trinque lol ? user dun have the key he reg'd ?

16:24

Logged on 2019-08-09 09:21:00 lobbesbot: BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.

16:25

mircea_popescu: !!key returns one for the fellow

16:25

well yeah ?

16:25

you seriously suspect deedbot's automated process made a mistake for him ?

16:26

it did happen 1ce before, iirc

16:26

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926812 << oobviously.

16:26

Logged on 2019-08-09 11:09:58 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926582 << someone squatted nick 'nsabot' on fleanode.

16:28

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926770 << wb, and gute besserung!

16:28

Logged on 2019-08-09 08:33:52 phf: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926224 << perhaps quarter dead, but days go to going to hospital for daily wounds dressing, sleeping a lot and going for walks, i have another sugery on monday to close me up.

~ 35 minutes ~

17:03

spyked, holy shit, viseu' did not change AT ALL.

17:04

asciilifeform: fished out some info re aws: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/koCFa/?raw=true (small patch for musl compat) and http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/avKyY/?raw=true (build instructions) seem to be it

17:04

im pretty sure every single item i nthat pic was there 25 years ago also.

~ 15 minutes ~

17:20

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926862 << this is actually important point. the notion of "compiler", as ~different from os~ and somehow part of "lang" is not unlike the notion of road signage as differen tyfrom road and somehow part of all windshields and rearview mirrors.

17:20

Logged on 2019-08-09 12:46:32 asciilifeform: the 'pc micro revolution' popularized an imho extremely braindamaged concept of what is 'comp lang'. specifically, where folx think that the front syntax is somehow logically glued to the internal mechanics ( whereas is merely happenstance, pc provides such broken bedrock abstractions that forces erry new lang author to write compiler 'from 0' as if year were 1959, but this is merely happenstance, rather than logical inevitability )

17:21

and then what, have legions of gnomes running around painting/erasing that stop sign in correct perspectives at 20fps ?

17:22

sounds kinda fucking stupid and in any case more expensive than just painting some sheet metal and piking it in the ground by the roadside. but then again if mechanical engineering worked like software "engineering"...

17:23

mircea_popescu: funnily enuff, 1 of the more recent idjit fads in pnojeism etc is just this, 'augmented reality', where user is to try an' look at e.g. shops, roads, through peephole of pnoje, to see imaginary 'signs' imposed on the picture

17:24

i fully expect that reich will at some pt give up on maintaining street signage, and try to push ~this~ as 'replacement'

17:24

well, pretty much the only way they'll see any shops at all, soon enough

17:25

not long ago asciilifeform went to bazar, and there were folx selling coffee. but instead of the usual signage saying what is name of the co, and from where coffee, there was... qr code. 'hey dontcha get it, aim pnoje camera here and will see little film clip of our spokesman..'

17:35

nuts.

17:36

*

mircea_popescu earlier stopped at gelateria. nicely furnished. had no table service and only paper cups. ONE SIZE. no plates, no nothing.

17:37

"why buy oak chairs when you aren't going to do dishes ?"

17:37

the extreme poverty of the contemporary ustard is only comparable to the extreme retardation of same.

17:39

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926867 << yeah, i agree, so far just about the record holder for "oh, but he showed so much promise" trope.

17:39

Logged on 2019-08-09 12:54:00 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926724 << all laffs aside, he had the seriously better proggy (and with 3y+ of massage, too)

17:39

prolly take years for it to be surpassed, too. i guess there's that.

17:44

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926886 << there was usage spike past few days, nfi. became popular somwhere

17:44

Logged on 2019-08-09 13:08:11 asciilifeform: btw re ddos -- mircea_popescu i think yer site also is being dos'd

17:45

as far as i can tell legitimate traffic. wtf do i know

~ 20 minutes ~

18:05

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926885 << ichecked, barely 12k words ? NOT EVEN A FULL BALZAC NOVEL.

18:05

Logged on 2019-08-09 13:05:52 asciilifeform: finally eaten (1st pass!) of this spinebreaker log!

18:06

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926916 << more importantly seems poor fit ; ada's strengths not so valuable for logger either.

18:06

Logged on 2019-08-09 15:19:37 asciilifeform: this is not to say that 'impossible to logotron in ada', but that result will be 1) gargantuan 2) ~unreadable 3) likely buggy despite herculean effort

18:11

meanwhile in fucking amusing cornell UGC, http://curious.astro.cornell.edu/physics/134-physics/general-physics/mechanics/829-why-can-t-a-plane-fly-slowly-and-let-the-earth-pass-underneath-beginner

~ 55 minutes ~

19:07

mircea_popescu: it is difficult, tho perhaps not impossible, to picture someone who never heard of.. satellite

19:08

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1927033 << item pretty clearly begs, screams, to be rewritten in cl. but nao it is written, genesis'd, can be ~rewritten~ .

19:08

Logged on 2019-08-09 18:06:40 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926916 << more importantly seems poor fit ; ada's strengths not so valuable for logger either.

19:10

it's, what, <1k loc (counting both www and irc ends)

19:14

*

asciilifeform bbl:meat

19:19

asciilifeform, kinda lulzy, jules-verne level understanding of world around. manalone in a surprising style, bereft of even basic education.

19:20

but hey, i'm sure awareness suitably raised on the important topics. dude guaranteed "knows" about "earth sciences" "consensus" on "global warming" &c

~ 25 minutes ~

19:45

Fuck that cornell MFA site is a shitter

19:50

"Herp Derp! We R Universitit. To get prestige we must linkbuild and clickbait against MIT in the Googlefight! To that we need to replace math with Pinoy."

19:56

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926567 << Reflecting on this today, I would like to collect journalistic minds.

19:56

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:06:11 mp_en_viaje: incidentally, speaking of http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-08#1926225 : hanbot is taking teenaged / twentysomething females meeting the pizdi bill ; i presume asciilifeform is taking highly intelligent, shy & introverted males age-irrespective, math grad student prototype while diana_coman is taking inquisitive teenagers age irrespective and BingoBoingo latam... females ?

20:01

ikr ?

20:01

it's what's left. first service economy, then online economy, by now...

20:03

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926659 << Related question I receive here is "What did you go to school for to do what you do?" I answer "Bibliotecas." "What does that have to do with what you do?" "Well, a bit, but mostly I just stumbled into a dragon's den shortly after school during one of those historical paradigm shifts and haven't been ate yet.

20:03

Logged on 2019-08-09 03:58:21 mp_en_viaje: this is utterly fucking false, of course. the telegraph doesn't get in a month the daily readership of trilema. but i think the ~pervasiveness~ of the antiquated, and mistaken, worldview may rub off on people.

20:07

The idea that a school's particular program of study necessarily leads to a job in that field is far more intact in Latino land than it has been in the US.

20:22

i suspect it'll be alling in the us too. it's how socialism works, give kids parents, give kids teachers, give kids jobs...

~ 21 minutes ~

20:44

!quptime

20:44

asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 1d 5h 8m

~ 1 hours 6 minutes ~

21:50

achtung, panzers! about to reset bot (5m)

21:52

!q src

21:52

asciilifeform: my source code can be seen at: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=3452

21:53

spyked , you are now live

21:55

spyked: if you have archival logs you'd like to see eaten -- plox to write in.

21:56

and hey resets in <25sec, notbad.

21:56

(20 of which is artificial delay)

22:05

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1927011 << i'ma have to peek at this at some pt

22:05

Logged on 2019-08-09 17:04:22 bvt: asciilifeform: fished out some info re aws: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/koCFa/?raw=true (small patch for musl compat) and http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/avKyY/?raw=true (build instructions) seem to be it

22:05

it's quite obese, btw, for those who haven't seen

22:06

and (as typically with adacore's 'extras') -- for no clear reason

22:11

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926728 << revisiting this mega-q : i've considered to bake a tmsr ~forth~ (general-purpose, rather than peh) . has the theoretical appeal that it could be bootstrapped 'M'-style, in asm. but could i convince anyone to program in it !

22:11

Logged on 2019-08-09 05:37:33 spyked: mircea_popescu, re. tmsr lang: could be one of two or three (or I dunno how many) langs, as long as tmsr owns 'em. atm there's no genesis for a cl compiler/interpreter (let alone e.g. networking code a la usocket, or a curl etc.), so... inb4 "fuck you spyked, I can't even compile sbcl, how do you want me to stand up your logotron"

~ 23 minutes ~

22:35

the fundamental mega-problem will have to be dealt with, one way or another

22:35

Logged on 2019-08-09 16:22:39 mircea_popescu: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09#1926784 << yes, until you discover you can no longer get it to run.

~ 1 hours ~

23:35

in other noose, mircea_popescu : http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-08-09?ss=1927022&se=1927024#1927022

23:35

Logged on 2019-08-09 17:36:55 mircea_popescu: earlier stopped at gelateria. nicely furnished. had no table service and only paper cups. ONE SIZE. no plates, no nothing.

23:36

will vpatch if mircea_popescu et al say 'useful' . ^ multiline select.

23:38

atm these can only be constructed 'by hand'. if anyone has better idea -- plox to write in.

23:38

( i.e. ss=startindex&se=endindex )

23:39