Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-07-30 | 2019-08-01 → ↓
01:37 mp_en_viaje well, "spear" that worth, literally, cost of 300 opponent spears is a thing
01:37 mp_en_viaje they call it musket
↖
01:38 mp_en_viaje that;s the problem with the plausibly-deniable socialism, the third brother : it's plausibly deniable.
01:41 mp_en_viaje plausible to the plausibility standards of one with paludism-induced dementia, it's true, but still.
~ 37 minutes ~
02:18 mp_en_viaje http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925747 << certainl by now. but eg f19 was pretty little whore of a plane.
02:18 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 00:24 asciilifeform: imho actually a mistake to think of e.g. f35 as 'product' that 'has a price', as if it were toyota -- what instead is that the parasitic toad at any given time demands x %% of the printolade, and produces/pretends to produce certain # of golden toilets, and x / # is then 'price'
~ 37 minutes ~
02:56 mp_en_viaje http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925749 <<->> http://trilema.com/2013/the-corn-thing/
02:56 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 00:26 asciilifeform: iirc mp_en_viaje had a piece where illustrated this using 'whore vs. princess wife'
03:02 mp_en_viaje http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925756 << in fairness though, the design of an object with particular refractive properties is necessarily more software than hardware -- it's the ultimate "measure 10mn times cut once" item, for each shape that ends up being built, 10e10 or 10e20 or w/e alternative shapes are investigated, ray-traced...
↖
03:02 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 00:34 asciilifeform: already (Officially!) ~90% of f35 costs in 'software' (ball of cpp...)
03:02 mp_en_viaje the whole thing happens with no fucking guidance, eg if you were trying to "build a woman you'd like" you'd spend SOME time fiddling with the knobs, but you'd broadly know it has to have tits and they're to be big etc. when it comes to "aircraft" you have nfi, maybe it should look like a tv.
03:03 mp_en_viaje f19 item is eminent point in case, ~nobody who saw it thought it could fly. because, objectively, damned thing can not fly, it's so unstable in all three planes it needs a computer just to stay afloat. which, of course, means it needs 4.
03:05 mp_en_viaje even with the computer it was subsonic, unmaneuverable sadness. complete glass cannon, by 1999 even the yugos could down them.
03:08 mp_en_viaje let's just go through this for the sake of being clear and explicit. so, suppose you decided to build a "stealth" plane, meaning : you've found in the archvies of russki radio technologies a piece from the 60s detailing how flat surfaces will scatter radio signal AWAY from the source, and thus in encounters with a single radar, you can design a 10 ton, 100 cubic meter object that looks like a square centimeter piece of duppel, on
03:08 mp_en_viaje the radar.
03:09 mp_en_viaje now, evidently this is useless to multi-radar systems -- but as long as you manage to keep secret what you're doing, so the others don't know how important multi-radaer and passive radar systems are, they'll prplly continue on the mega-radar trend of the 70s (as they did in the 80s) and miss you. for a decade or so.
03:10 mp_en_viaje suppose they give you the money to try this. but you DO know how to calculate observable scatter from point to surface, but... it's not exactly a continuous function (trivially, because your surface is not continuous, you're not flyin ga sphere, and so not integrable, and moreover, you absolutely lack the '''mathematical computer''' that
03:11 mp_en_viaje could take a shape and produce the functionals. that's not even here NOW, in spute of how fucking obviously the right thing it was cca 1989 ie 30 years ago -- all the
03:14 mp_en_viaje "bright minds" / morons involved too busy http://trilema.com/2018/the-symbolics-discussion/ instead, whatever.
03:15 mp_en_viaje so you talk it over with your boss, who doesn't know math which is why he's in charge of you (because he's unlikely to turn fucked in the head like ~everyone who knows math tends to), and you agree five degrees stepping and presumption of contiguity between. because fuck it, gotta decide something. (in reality more complex than this, but what can i do).
03:15 mp_en_viaje now look at it : a circle is 360 degrees, so you'll have to "look at" (ie, run the differentials, calculate scatter) the object 72 times. once every five degees.
03:17 mp_en_viaje and it's a 3-d object, meaning it has 72 such planes going all around. each with 72 such points. so we're at 5k tracings, for ONE single shape, and on a generous presumption of "every 0.09 rads is fine".
03:18 mp_en_viaje if each of these produces a mb of data (and boy howdy, does it! for one thing... there's MULTIPLE radar bands, yes ? each of these scatters differently, because wavelength, and no, also not necessarily continuous function, because diffraction and other "unexpected" facepalms)
03:18 a111 Logged on 2019-01-04 17:18 mircea_popescu: why the fuck didn't i think of that.
03:18 mp_en_viaje then you're looking at 5 GB of data PER SHAPE. and the year is 1980, meaning 40MB hard drives are cool as fuck, and there's no such thing as SSD (read : they're fucking slow)
03:21 mp_en_viaje isn't it "of fucking course" this is gonna cost way the fuck more than machining a flat surface out of silicon carbide ?
03:21 mp_en_viaje (likbez : "absorbs radar signal" ~= "heats well")
03:24 mp_en_viaje happens to also be the only useful application of sintering known, but that aside.
↖
03:24 a111 Logged on 2016-01-31 02:07 ascii_rear: BingoBoingo: watch the film at least until where the sintering machine appears
03:24 mp_en_viaje oh look at that, ever-so-useful monkey-man "spellchecker" doesn't approve of sintering. because holy shit, psychopaths, using words outside of the outer realms of monkey-man knowledges
~ 50 minutes ~
04:15 mp_en_viaje fwiw, i've been re-reading the symbolics discussion, still just as fucking stumped on http://trilema.com/2018/the-symbolics-discussion/?b=now,%20why&e=they.#select as ever. a year passing has brought me no clarity.
↖
~ 20 minutes ~
04:35 mp_en_viaje http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925767 << the only difficulty is that you have to know to build multi-radar pickets rather than mono-radar megaliths. this is where china was going anyway. here's the history of conflict in present day :
04:35 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 01:21 asciilifeform: afaik is questionable whether item had 'difficulty' in this sense to begin with
04:36 mp_en_viaje china became actor in 90s, took strategic decision that weapon of war is now rockets. this happens to be sound ; and it obsoleted the us model entirely, and the russian model partially (exceptionally good jets still useful, if you can provide the pilots -- ru can, cn can not).
04:36 mp_en_viaje in 2000s, cn took 2nd strategic decision, that rockets many-and-tiny, as opposed to large-ish (scud) or huge (icbm). if you've ever played orion, this is equiv of the early "mir-v" revolution there, game changer.
04:37 mp_en_viaje consequently, they covered every available surface in small rocket launchers. that's that, china is atm militarily immune to rest of the world.
04:37 mp_en_viaje but, coincidentally, since they were building 1e5 rocket sites, they decided to also build 1e5 radars. cuz it makes sense, i guess, passibely, whatever.
↖
04:38 mp_en_viaje this obsoletes "stealth" technology, because you can lie to a few people all the time but not to all the people all the time. there's no way to scatter radiation so that none of ~uknown-position~ 1e5 radars sees it. and with modern telecom and computing, it's trivial to link these so any can detect scatter from any.
↖
04:38 mp_en_viaje this means a race to the bottom, everyone who paid for stealth wants to get as much value from it right now before it's worthless completely.
↖
04:40 mp_en_viaje but it is intrinsically worthless, because it is ~actually cheaper~ to build radars such as "stealth" dun work than it is to build radars so it does work. and "stealth" comes at huge production (discussed above) and aerodynamic cost (alluded to above). so that's that for this idea.
04:42 mp_en_viaje the thing with cn-style rocket is that they're 100% defensive mechanism ; this fundamentally changes the rules of the game, reverting the situation (previously, tank, 100% assault mechanism, revolutionized the previous situation, fortification, 100% defensive, etc)
04:43 mp_en_viaje the integration trends, with "international order" and usg ngos "based on brain-kellog pact" bla bla will revert ; disintegration ("ghettoization" in butthurt fanfic) is the new trend ; this had been culturally visible for a while, but it took a sharp civilisational turn with this military development.
04:45 mp_en_viaje usg-can-not-win-in-afghanistan will spell a "new era for peace" like the "japan can not defend homeland" spelled "new era for peace" : a different kind of peace ; one that involves the trade in recently captured 16yo precious cuntlets and all the fantastic stories of seafaring in the castle age.
04:49 mp_en_viaje and yes, like bourgeois of old paid to be in town, because have to upkeep walls, there's going to be "real man", who lives in rocket-defended perimeter ; and freeranged animal, outside. a trend already visible ~irrespective~ of the actual military evolution, described eg by mocky in quatar, by BingoBoingo in uruguay etc. walled compound is artefact of same cultural trend as here discussed ; and it arises prior to and independent
04:49 mp_en_viaje of the civilisational trend represented by above military discussion.
04:52 mp_en_viaje people, once again, happened to have to do just what they seem to have been wanting to do anyway ; if this doesn't meet your criteria for benevolent divinity, then byoe.
04:52 a111 Logged on 2017-12-28 14:27 mircea_popescu: there is no, strictly speaking, reason that iron MUST be provided on the surface of a planet just like the earth. it ~could~, very well, have simply gone through a place poor in planetoids and ended up entirely iron free on the surface. but it did not.
04:52 mp_en_viaje bitcoin, amusingly, supports just this ; is as much and as large a chunk as rocketry.
04:55 mp_en_viaje http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925770 << rather, led to perestroika, which did provide a breather (making the f19 possible, only time us shone in the air)
↖
04:55 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 01:34 BingoBoingo: Well, it lead to Gulf War 1 and Tailhook. Those lead to "Joint Strike Fighter"
04:57 mp_en_viaje but it seems, amusingly enough, this was reverted -- the new ru planes quite good (and the old ones still serviceable)
04:57 a111 Logged on 2016-04-28 16:43 mircea_popescu: shinohai it should perhaps be added that a decade ago, when romania was fresh in nato etc, there was a joint exercise, with romania being designated the bad guy because they flew migs.
~ 4 hours 58 minutes ~
09:55 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925772 << sorta the promise of wunderwaffe pushers errywhere, neh. 'this'll be our maxim mg against them heathen's spears'
↖
09:55 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 05:37 mp_en_viaje: they call it musket
09:57 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925779 << iirc the moola was spent on the onboard soft. but i have nfi what relation this rumour has to fact.
09:57 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 07:02 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925756 << in fairness though, the design of an object with particular refractive properties is necessarily more software than hardware -- it's the ultimate "measure 10mn times cut once" item, for each shape that ends up being built, 10e10 or 10e20 or w/e alternative shapes are investigated, ray-traced...
09:59 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925801 << imho pretty straightforward case of two idjit children who couldn't agree to share a toy, pulling it apart until breaks.
↖
09:59 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 08:15 mp_en_viaje: fwiw, i've been re-reading the symbolics discussion, still just as fucking stumped on http://trilema.com/2018/the-symbolics-discussion/?b=now,%20why&e=they.#select as ever. a year passing has brought me no clarity.
10:02 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925809 << recall mussolini's 'get as much value from it right now before it's worthless completely' of ww1 gas in ethiopia ? i suspect this is exactly today's 'stealth'
↖
10:02 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 08:38 mp_en_viaje: this means a race to the bottom, everyone who paid for stealth wants to get as much value from it right now before it's worthless completely.
10:06 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925798 << there are sintered parts even in toyota. quite old tech by nao.
10:06 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 07:24 mp_en_viaje: happens to also be the only useful application of sintering known, but that aside.
10:12 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925808 << on top of this : at some pt (if not already) the passive radar itself will fit inside cheap flying 'toy', of which there will be 'swarm' , rather than ye olde multi-kW sovok item on trucks etc.
10:12 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 08:38 mp_en_viaje: this obsoletes "stealth" technology, because you can lie to a few people all the time but not to all the people all the time. there's no way to scatter radiation so that none of ~uknown-position~ 1e5 radars sees it. and with modern telecom and computing, it's trivial to link these so any can detect scatter from any.
~ 17 minutes ~
10:29 feedbot http://ave1.org/2019/lisp-a-question-about-concatenation-step-4/ << ave1 -- Lisp, a question about concatenation, step #4
~ 1 hours 21 minutes ~
11:51 BingoBoingo http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925819 << Gulf War and Tailhook though were the impetus for the F-35 "Joint Strike Fighter" with a window free from fearing foreign men, the old women were able to push through a "one true plane" that excels at nothing.
↖
11:51 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 08:55 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925770 << rather, led to perestroika, which did provide a breather (making the f19 possible, only time us shone in the air)
11:52 BingoBoingo But yes, F-19 came with perestroika helping Gulf War happen
11:55 BingoBoingo Along the way carrier based Joint Strike fighter F-18E/F "Fat Hornet" was ready in time to face goat herds in 2001 and cripple Iraq in 2003
12:02 BingoBoingo Then there's russia going all in on the air defense missiles. It's not the truck with 4 launch tubes in the press photos the US dun like. It's that the S-400 is a group of trucks, 1/3 of which have the big tubes and which coordinate together for a substantial radar picket
~ 57 minutes ~
12:59 mp_en_viaje http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925823 << yup, absolutely. the infuriating part is that this is actually true ~sometimes~, and it's extremely hard to distinguish when it'll be the case.
12:59 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 13:55 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925772 << sorta the promise of wunderwaffe pushers errywhere, neh. 'this'll be our maxim mg against them heathen's spears'
13:00 mp_en_viaje http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925827 << except it's not two agents, but more like three to five, and they behave like children in spite of being this current civilisation's specific heroes (id est, older men with knowledge). it's like if there was ru folk tale of "then the three ilya muromets fought each other like morons while potato blight took over the land"
↖
13:00 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 13:59 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925801 << imho pretty straightforward case of two idjit children who couldn't agree to share a toy, pulling it apart until breaks.
13:03 mp_en_viaje http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925829 << precisely ; and, to add dimensions to the comparison, exactly equal dying pretense to greatness in both cases etc.
13:03 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 14:02 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925809 << recall mussolini's 'get as much value from it right now before it's worthless completely' of ww1 gas in ethiopia ? i suspect this is exactly today's 'stealth'
13:09 mp_en_viaje "It was not only born in my mind and heart, in that meeting held in March 1919 in the little hall at Milan, it was born of the profound and perennial need of this our Mediterranean "
13:15 mp_en_viaje http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925836 << this is quite factual ; the old women in this are mccain, [trilema.com/2019/thelastpsychiatristcom-are-antipsychotics-overprescribed-to-kids-adnotated/][grassley] etc.
↖
13:15 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 15:51 BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925819 << Gulf War and Tailhook though were the impetus for the F-35 "Joint Strike Fighter" with a window free from fearing foreign men, the old women were able to push through a "one true plane" that excels at nothing.
13:25 mp_en_viaje obama didn't do this bondogle ; pelosi was derpy but moderate and in general silent, clinton was rather supportive of better solution. the old women responsible are very much the (nowadays mostly imaginary) non-trump republicans
13:29 BingoBoingo AHA, up until Clintons got out, things like stretched F-22 based light bomber were under consideration. All fell to the one true plane. Then McCain fell. Wat do?
13:31 BingoBoingo Obama did contribute at the margins by ending production of the F-22 which is very similar to the F-35 except that the 22 was designed to succeed as a plane without compromises because plane has to be designed to accomodate derps that want to plane from helicopter carriers
13:33 mp_en_viaje when you get to be the top man you get to be deemed to have "contribute at the margins" of ~everything, it's kinda what the definition of the term is in integrated world.
13:36 BingoBoingo Meanwhile in local news, this Sunday is a pre-referendum on an October referendum to repeal the soon to be outgoing government's recent "lay trans"
13:37 BingoBoingo The derps are derping about a piece of paper from this spring as though it is some alfajor like establihed part of the culture.
13:38 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925843 << must point out, this portrait is only visible in retrospect. the playing characters themselves were evidently quite convinced that they were fighting over a future mega-fortune, rather than bread crust
13:38 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 17:00 mp_en_viaje: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925827 << except it's not two agents, but more like three to five, and they behave like children in spite of being this current civilisation's specific heroes (id est, older men with knowledge). it's like if there was ru folk tale of "then the three ilya muromets fought each other like morons while potato blight took over the land"
13:41 mp_en_viaje hm
13:41 asciilifeform and in light of e.g. http://trilema.com/2015/you-know-what-gets-no-airplay-unflattering-truth/ it aint even obvious to asciilifeform that 'hey they clearly oughta have all gone with noftsker'
13:41 mp_en_viaje nor to me.
13:43 asciilifeform ( from strictly archaeological pov -- noftsker's bolix, with borrowed moneys, lived ~decade longer than lmi, and produced substantially moar interesting & intact ruins, but this is perhaps orthogonal to the orig q )
13:48 mp_en_viaje i believe it is, yes.
13:50 asciilifeform mushroom rms's narrative is , granted, nonsense, where 'bolix sold soul to devil, lmi -- not sold'. both sold to devil, 2 diff devils. lmi's gambit was 'we'll self-fund by hand-soldering machines to sell back to mit'
13:53 asciilifeform it is entirely unclear to asciilifeform what either 'oughta have done instead', other than 'go home to bottle'. whole affair walked on the very edge of the technological possibility of the time -- and arguably stepped right over the edge of what was commercially practical
↖
13:58 asciilifeform the 1 commercial variant that was defo nowhere near being on the table, was 'consumer'. when a MB of dram cost ~same as truck, there was no question that any such machine could be purchased by anyone other than large org. the only dispute could be re what kinda org sold to, and how.
~ 17 minutes ~
14:15 ave1 http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925807, I did not know. Whole thread is the by far the best analysis I've read.
↖
14:15 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 08:37 mp_en_viaje: but, coincidentally, since they were building 1e5 rocket sites, they decided to also build 1e5 radars. cuz it makes sense, i guess, passibely, whatever.
14:17 ave1 Btw would same stealth go for ships? It seems to me a dimension less. (Not that the littoral can float)
↖
~ 49 minutes ~
15:06 BingoBoingo ave1: Ships are slow and mostly useful for how much they can emit in radar and missiles
15:09 BingoBoingo China's building destoryers by the 50 while playing with a second hand aircraft carrier
~ 1 hours 15 minutes ~
16:24 feedbot http://qntra.net/2019/07/extreme-police-violence-brought-down-on-woman-accused-of-hacking-capital-one/ << Qntra -- Extreme Police Violence Brought Down On Woman Accused Of Hacking "Capital One"
16:25 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: s/plays/playing
16:26 BingoBoingo ty, fxd
16:33 feedbot http://bingology.net/2019/07/31/peso-watch-july-2019/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog -- Peso Watch July 2019
16:33 BingoBoingo ^ Big news is the Peso Argentino. from 0.55/1.15 to 0.70/1.00 in compra/venta
16:36 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: oblig. illust. re 'capital one' chix from era of prev. reich.
~ 3 hours 13 minutes ~
19:50 mp_en_viaje http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925864 << all the men involved should have banded together, pointedly and specifically denied monkeys any cover.
19:50 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 17:53 asciilifeform: it is entirely unclear to asciilifeform what either 'oughta have done instead', other than 'go home to bottle'. whole affair walked on the very edge of the technological possibility of the time -- and arguably stepped right over the edge of what was commercially practical
19:50 mp_en_viaje in terms exactly equivalent to "you are monkeys, not men, drop dead"
19:51 asciilifeform mp_en_viaje: where, in your analysis, was the man, and where -- the monkey ?
19:52 mp_en_viaje this is moral obligation of man, not merely "mp is being vindictive" or w/e the pantsuit bullshit. man has moral obligation, unavoidable and indelible, to repress monkey.
19:52 mp_en_viaje man who works with monkey is unavoidable living in state of sin
19:52 mp_en_viaje asciilifeform, it's your analysis. monkey === mit ; etc. man, supposedly, at lmi, bolix, etc.
19:54 mp_en_viaje http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925866 << yes, kinda what the republic is. "best analysis anyone ever reads"
19:54 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 18:15 ave1: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925807, I did not know. Whole thread is the by far the best analysis I've read.
19:55 mp_en_viaje http://btcbase.org/log/2019-07-31#1925868 << out of the question, such a thing as "stealth ship". friction is 5th power of speed, 3rd power of density, a ship can never move fast enough to ever be stealth.
19:55 a111 Logged on 2019-07-31 18:17 ave1: Btw would same stealth go for ships? It seems to me a dimension less. (Not that the littoral can float)
19:56 asciilifeform mp_en_viaje: what even is the meaning of 'stealth ship' given satellite, cheap networked sonobuoys, etc ?
19:56 mp_en_viaje ikr,
19:56 mp_en_viaje some specific improvements are available where, eg, ship is not more than 20cm over surface, so the waves provide some protection from skimming missile
19:56 mp_en_viaje but these are tiny tactical improvements, do not add up to stealth.
19:57 asciilifeform '20cm' is moar or less sub at periscope depth neh
19:57 mp_en_viaje just about.
19:57 mp_en_viaje also some amphi transporters etc.
20:11 mp_en_viaje ave1, you know i got a coupla comments in queue
~ 15 minutes ~
20:26 asciilifeform mp_en_viaje: thinkin' moar re the 'monkeys' -- imho these were the folx continuing to build dec clones , crapples & other micros, and in the inevitable march to microshit hell. rather than the bolix/lmi folx. these, imho, did Right Thing. (even if ended by plugging embrasure with torso)
20:27 mp_en_viaje the dec wasn't evne that terribru
20:27 asciilifeform for 1968 -- no, not terrible.
20:27 mp_en_viaje right
20:28 mp_en_viaje anyway. point remains, lmi, bolix, etc folk had absolute obligations : a) to work together ; b) to not work with morons.
20:28 mp_en_viaje defaulted on both. wtf fucked in the head/
~ 17 minutes ~
20:46 mp_en_viaje BingoBoingo, any chanceyour blog gets recentcomments ?
~ 35 minutes ~
21:21 BingoBoingo mp_en_viaje: I'll dig up some code to restore recent comments to the sidebar
~ 27 minutes ~
21:49 BingoBoingo And recentcomments is online
~ 31 minutes ~
22:21 feedbot http://blog.mod6.net/2019/08/testing-bvts-blockwise-read-vpatch/ << mod6's Blog -- Testing bvt's Blockwise Read vpatch
← 2019-07-30 | 2019-08-01 → ↑

Random(trilema) | Download hourly DB snapshot | Get Source Code

Theme: Light | Dark | System Default