Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-05-05 | 2018-05-07 → ↓
02:01 mother mircea_popsecu definitely not ultrasound machinery. Two ways. One is you have drones on surveillance flights. What it does provide you is a lot of high-res overlapping imagery you can generate aerial footage and 3d models of. You can combine this with other seismic and geotech surveys taken. Another way is that you have drones able to retrieve samples on-site, leaving a surveyors role more on analysis. The cost reductions
02:01 mother are substantial.
02:03 ben_vulpes what does the sample-taking equipment look like?
02:04 ben_vulpes what's the sampler-system design, i mean
~ 26 minutes ~
02:30 mother ben_vulpes haven't seen it myself yet so can't say.
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02:37 mother With Nadex, you're trading binary options and it's at market-set prices. Which is more than what I can say for quotes from Deribit for example. I agree on that about the bitcoin price signal. Do you see BTC trading to or past its highs this year?
02:41 mircea_popescu mother[m], but they'd get very superficial samples neh ?
02:42 * mircea_popescu doesn't know much about mineral survey, but oil at least, assays are all >100m.
02:44 mircea_popescu anyway, bitcoin's natural value is somewhere in between 150% and 300% or so of the M3. so yes, i see bitcoin price exceeding the aggregate cash value of most countries.
02:45 mircea_popescu 2.5 haitis to the btc sorta thing.
02:56 mircea_popescu Moduli Broken: 2489 << asciilifeform yeah totally, this did more in a few days than the old one did per month or two.
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~ 25 minutes ~
03:22 mircea_popescu http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/factor/380 << this incidentally is a great addition.
03:24 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, my question to you is : if there's "Factors Shared by Two or More Moduli: 259" reported on the stats page, yet the factor index goes to 419 (ie, I can see http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/factor/419 ) then what the hell's going on ? are there 259 or 419 factors ?
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03:25 mircea_popescu (in other lulz, google fully indexes it, like say https://www.google.com/search?q=185.68.228.74 or w/e random ip from the reported list).
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03:31 mircea_popescu !!up fromdeedbot
03:31 deedbot fromdeedbot voiced for 30 minutes.
03:34 fromdeedbot hey guys so I did register my RSA key to deedbot as "fromdeedbot" but i got it working. I'm learning a lot of things are new to me right now so please xcuse me ahead of time if i do something in bad from, it's not on purpose
03:34 lobbesbot fromdeedbot: Sent 1 day, 2 hours, and 41 minutes ago: <mircea_popescu> stop join/parting.
03:34 fromdeedbot if i leave my irc window open it should just stay logged correct?
03:34 mircea_popescu mkay. don't do the join/part thing, it pisses people off.
03:34 fromdeedbot copy that
03:34 mircea_popescu fromdeedbot, not reliably. why not get a client / bouncer set up ?
03:35 fromdeedbot I'll google that
03:36 fromdeedbot what do you guys think of apps being built on BCH?
03:36 fromdeedbot if anything
03:36 mircea_popescu otherwise, if your internet access is primarily via web, the channel's logged ; the logs are more reliable than your ad-hoc wwwapp will be. see http://btcbase.org/log http://logs.bvulpes.com/trilema http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/today
03:36 fromdeedbot ty
03:37 fromdeedbot I started reding the logs here in NOV.
03:38 fromdeedbot impressive stuff...
03:38 mircea_popescu so then you know nobody took the bitcoin crash lulz seriously.
03:39 fromdeedbot bitcoin "crash" or bitcoin crashing, or bot
03:39 fromdeedbot *both
03:41 mircea_popescu "bch". that thing where some busker in san francisco declared himself "emperor of america".
03:42 mircea_popescu except with handpuppets and blockchains. but otherwise, same thing.
03:42 fromdeedbot yeah too many forks not enough steak
03:43 fromdeedbot most "tokenized" use cases are not interested in building their own chain
03:56 mircea_popescu the only stable solution is when 50%+1 of all energy production goes to mining ; there's absolutely no space for "alternate" coins other than an expensive luxury early on.
04:09 mircea_popescu meanwhile in ATM news, https://78.media.tumblr.com/129da98300ef78f827d37edd8e89e4c9/tumblr_p1ycl0m2gU1vowk7zo1_r1_400.gif
~ 5 hours 50 minutes ~
10:00 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-06#1810406 << there are two types of factor that are factors of ~solely one~ modulus: 1) debianistic ( and other 'special collection' ones, i'ma make it mark them in the factor page soon) , and,
10:00 a111 Logged on 2018-05-06 07:24 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, my question to you is : if there's "Factors Shared by Two or More Moduli: 259" reported on the stats page, yet the factor index goes to 419 (ie, I can see http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/factor/419 ) then what the hell's going on ? are there 259 or 419 factors ?
10:01 asciilifeform 2) if mod / oneknownfactor is prime, we get the other kind, also a just-that-modulus factor
10:01 asciilifeform i'ma need to put this in faq, really
10:02 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-06#1810404 << 2818 currently
10:02 a111 Logged on 2018-05-06 06:56 mircea_popescu: Moduli Broken: 2489 << asciilifeform yeah totally, this did more in a few days than the old one did per month or two.
10:04 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-06#1810407 << it indexes it in ~realtime , it plus a whole buncha crawlers that have namestrings that dun correspond to anything findable publicly, i suspect the usual suspects, when ipbanned they come back ~immediately from somewhere else
10:04 a111 Logged on 2018-05-06 07:25 mircea_popescu: (in other lulz, google fully indexes it, like say https://www.google.com/search?q=185.68.228.74 or w/e random ip from the reported list).
10:04 asciilifeform this started in 2015 actually
10:05 asciilifeform difference is, now it does not grind to a halt, from this treatment, O(n log n) fetches.
10:10 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-06#1810398 << ahaha, i did predict, >> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-06#1810332
10:10 a111 Logged on 2018-05-06 06:30 mother[m]: ben_vulpes haven't seen it myself yet so can't say.
10:10 a111 Logged on 2018-05-06 00:12 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-05#1810271 << i suspect that there is no physical operation involved, it is 100% chumpatronics, like all other subjects of usg.startupism at this point
~ 18 minutes ~
10:29 asciilifeform aaand mods still popping...
~ 1 hours 26 minutes ~
11:55 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, you don't take my meaning. there can't be at the same time the case that a) "the cardinal of the set of factors is 259" and b) "419 in http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/factor/419 denotes the 419th factor". because if you have a 419th factor, howsoever serialized, the cardinal of the set of factors must be at least 419.
11:55 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: there in fact are currently 5182 known factors.
11:55 mircea_popescu and so the status page is way behind ?
11:55 asciilifeform most of them however are factors of only 1 modulus.
11:56 asciilifeform and are not reported under 'Factors Shared by Two or More Moduli' stat.
11:56 mircea_popescu oooo i see!
11:56 asciilifeform ( as to how we break a modulus without it sharing any factors with other known moduli: see logs re debianization )
11:56 asciilifeform aha.
11:56 mircea_popescu right you are ; i was missing that particular edge of braindamage from my mental model.
11:56 asciilifeform good q tho. i was waiting for somebody to ask.
11:56 mircea_popescu maybe time to add "factors of a single modulus" stat to stat page ?
11:57 asciilifeform it is in the conveyor, along with 'where from?' stat in 'factor/123' page (e.g. 'debian collection', 'cisco', etc)
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11:57 mircea_popescu cool deal.
11:57 mircea_popescu you know, last time we relocated phuctor there were significant gains. this time, even more significant.
11:58 asciilifeform nao it's sorta realtime
11:58 mircea_popescu i basically hope we keep losing it. seems the more indermeddling, the stronger the republic.
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11:58 asciilifeform lol
~ 34 minutes ~
12:32 asciilifeform soooo summary of the eating of tail end of Framedragger collection: 877 popped mods. nearly matched prediction from earlier ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1808858 )
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12:32 a111 Logged on 2018-05-04 13:05 asciilifeform: there are 1.7mil+ moduli in the queue right now; if i fire the werker i expect that it will produce 8-900+ popped-moduli.
12:39 mircea_popescu wow check that out.
12:40 asciilifeform trinque may find interesting that deedbot registered , of these, : 702
12:42 asciilifeform !#seen BenBE
12:42 a111 2017-04-09 <BenBE> But that's nothing left for today.
12:42 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, so what's your prediction re the github set ? how many items even in there ?
12:43 asciilifeform ^ d00d with large collection of debian-style 'famous p's and q's', even once showed up here and asked to get phuctor's, and he did, but somehow his collection includes ~whole keys~ rather than factors. soon i'ma feed in ~his~ collection.
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12:43 asciilifeform 6976695 , in jurov's csv
12:44 asciilifeform i'd predict, but i do not recall how he obtained these.
12:44 asciilifeform ( and hey jurov, is it time for refresh ? or should i use the 2016 tarball as-is )
12:46 asciilifeform !Q later tell danielpbarron http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/48EF022DF9242B52C3F2970BB62613855B089C60B99E8FCE5004CCF30D48D699 << any idea what this is ?
12:46 lobbesbot asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
12:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, ah, so not even a mn ? alright. aaand what's your prediction ?
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12:47 asciilifeform ^ it set off asciilifeform's heuristic bell re 'possible symptom of derps distributing ineptly mutilated lord key'
12:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, seems likely he signed it no ?
12:50 * asciilifeform looks
12:50 asciilifeform loox like it.
12:50 asciilifeform ( this is unfortunately difficult to distinguish mechanically )
12:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i predict 0 . ( will be pleasantly surprised, perhaps.. )
12:51 asciilifeform since the debian incident, enemy stepped up the 'NOBUS' crapola; no noar '32768 possible keys, total', instead things moar in the spirit of http://qntra.net/2016/08/rng-whitening-bug-weakened-all-versions-of-gpg
12:52 asciilifeform ( where you apply a magictransform to the whole rfc4880 turd, to get a lattice and get the privs; or at the very least, diddled rng that gives e.g. 48 bits of possible keyspace, so nobody finds straight collision, but their asic can walk it, or the like.
12:52 mircea_popescu hey, what other driver of progress, in republic as empire alike, can there even be.
12:54 asciilifeform sorta ~whole point of phuctor -- to increase the minimal complexity/cost for enemy .
12:54 asciilifeform let him do equiv of 'running in gas mask'.
12:55 mircea_popescu indeed.
12:56 asciilifeform and to whittle away at the nobus idiocy -- ideally we get ~regular whole-ipv4 scans, and erry time a usgtronic router vendor with fixed keys etc is discovered, list of ~live~ boxes is seen by whoever wants.
12:57 mircea_popescu doesn't seem avoidable. Framedragger_ came and went, maybe the next one and maybe even the next after that. but eventualy it's getting settled, like everything else.
12:57 asciilifeform it's a pretty straight mechanical job.
12:58 mircea_popescu great intro item too.
12:58 asciilifeform ( the correct place to do it ~from~, might even be the -- repurposed -- usg botnets, e.g. mikrotik etc. )
12:58 asciilifeform and yes great work for n00bz.
12:58 mircea_popescu conceivably.
12:59 BingoBoingo I mean what else are those phree boxes there for
12:59 asciilifeform scanning is 'embarrassingly parallel', e.g. if you have 2 places to work from , it goes 2x as fast, and so on linearly
13:00 mircea_popescu in fact, the proper sources of tmsr hardware are, in order, a) confiscated usg hardware and b) its own iron outside the reich. that 2017 ended with 0% a and 0% b, and 2018 will likely end with 0%a and whatever%b has no bearing on this : there's always 2019, there's always uci, etcetera.
13:01 asciilifeform for certain uses, spoils iron is the ~only iron, aha
13:01 mircea_popescu for sexual uses.
13:01 mircea_popescu as a general rule, if it's satisfying, it's been taken.
13:03 asciilifeform oh, and to complete earlier snapshot picture : Known Moduli: 10347987 .
13:04 asciilifeform these, from 16010944 submissions ( i.e. gpg keys ) of which 12284842 were Framedragger-generated.
13:05 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, in nitpicks today : if phuctor.nosuchlabs.com then also fuckgoats.nosuchlabs.com neh ?
13:05 asciilifeform ( the rest, sks, and the tiny remainder, manual submissions. )
13:05 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: nosuchlabs.com/hardware.html , and per mircea_popescu's 2016 spec , given as there is not yet a 2nd iron product, they are idempotent
13:05 asciilifeform ( will be revised once there is. )
13:06 asciilifeform currently bare naked nosuchlabs.com shows FG pg.
13:07 mircea_popescu kk
13:14 asciilifeform incidentally, there's another yet-virginal but i suspect quite fertile field for phuctor : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-17#1725945 incident
13:14 a111 Logged on 2017-10-17 05:59 jurov: "The flaw resides in the Infineon-developed RSA Library version v1.02.013, specifically within an algorithm it implements for RSA primes generation. "
13:14 asciilifeform ^ potentially good for some implausibly-large num of popped mods
13:14 asciilifeform includes ~all 'yubikey' devices, for instance.
13:15 asciilifeform and ~every 'tpm'-generated rsa modulus to date
13:15 asciilifeform ( recall? derps used prime-constructor instead of asciilifeform-style 'generate N random bits and probe for primality, if fail -- discard ALL of them' )
13:15 asciilifeform !!up RagnarDanneskjol
13:15 deedbot RagnarDanneskjol voiced for 30 minutes.
13:16 asciilifeform !#seen RagnarDanneskjol
13:16 a111 2018-01-24 <RagnarDanneskjol> Fraudsters? Please clarify
13:21 asciilifeform upstack : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-06#1810476 << 6`976`695 , mircea_popescu
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13:21 a111 Logged on 2018-05-06 16:47 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, ah, so not even a mn ? alright. aaand what's your prediction ?
13:22 asciilifeform or 5GB of keyola+usernames
13:22 asciilifeform pretty hefty collection.
13:24 mircea_popescu ah ah. and still you say 0 ?
13:24 asciilifeform hard to say 0, there's simply gotta be at least 1 or 2 debian victims
13:26 asciilifeform ... supposing these are ssh keys. i currently can't seem to recall what these are. lessee when jurov wakes up.
13:36 BingoBoingo Aite, the local pharmacies are starting to swiftly become a redeeming factor. One handwritten note with my symptoms and zero expensive ObamaDeathPanel visits is all it took to get Trimetoprim/Sulfametoxazol
13:40 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, tedious to get the pubkey out of shit like yubikey tho
13:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the lusers get it out themselves and distribute, apparently ( the way it is used, other end of channel gotta have it )
13:40 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, they were rsa keys off github iirc ?
13:40 asciilifeform right, but where were they generated/how, i do not recall
13:41 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, yes, but they only distribute it to hitler's minions.
13:41 asciilifeform ( did the lusers submit ? or shithub genned ? or how. )
13:41 mircea_popescu possibly a mix.
13:41 mircea_popescu understand how "yubikey" works : hitlerist website buys a boatload, extracts pub/privkeys, sends to losers.
13:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: nominally yes, only minions; however a large qty iirc has leaked out. would be interesting to get hold of'em somehow.
13:41 mircea_popescu this way both "security" and nobus.
13:41 asciilifeform aha
13:42 mircea_popescu i suppose next someone cracks open one of these fetlifes, can dump the yubikey set this way. tho... very roundabout way of ghoing about things -- could as well just list the privkeys.
13:42 asciilifeform those aint kept around on the server end tho
13:42 asciilifeform ( the privs, that is )
13:45 mircea_popescu they're kept in the safe.
13:46 asciilifeform rright, but in washington, not in whatever flea pit bought the 'yubi'
13:46 mircea_popescu depends on size. either at yubi plant or at buyer.
13:46 mircea_popescu generally, producer doesn't want to be stuck with them.
13:46 asciilifeform producer does not, per the actual magic revealed in the infineon incident, have to know anything at all.
13:47 mircea_popescu whereas fucktarded importance-seeking "investors" of customer tend to imagine this makes them less likely to sink.
13:47 asciilifeform he gets a 'licensed' chip mask, churns out devices, ships.
13:47 asciilifeform said mask contains 'prime constructor' with the obvious boojum intrinsic to it.
13:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, i meant yubi co, by producer, not whatever random chinese plant spitting these out and making the only money for the only actual economic activity involved.
13:47 asciilifeform apples to both in equal measure.
13:48 asciilifeform 0 need to yubi to know any seekrit.
13:48 mircea_popescu anyway, it's not (as your purity seeking mind would prefer) one true magic bojum.
13:48 mircea_popescu there's just a list of crap. "wins at go" algo.
13:48 asciilifeform no particular reason it is 'only one true', aha
13:48 asciilifeform it simply happens that one of them, got out, last autumn.
13:48 mircea_popescu believe it or not, empire still runs on excel, empire still prefers the list 1, 3, 5, 7 to the generator n*2+1.
13:49 asciilifeform ( concretely, a key generator that produces a fairly good quality -- from 'nobus' pov -- class of weak keys )
13:49 asciilifeform well generator is readily transformed into 'list 1,3,5...' prior to being given to whichever minion.
13:49 mircea_popescu which are then specifically enumerated (yes, in an excel spreadsheet), with the respective associations, and then stored in a fucking "safe", ie a spurious hunk of metal that'd do nothing in any case.
13:51 asciilifeform sorta how they started doing with 'radio keys' for costly autos in 1990s, aha
13:51 mircea_popescu then a "court-ordered" whatever the hell takes three weeks because the only person that even knew what an index is in the entire org quit over not wanthing to wear the corporate tshirt at the corporate event and so on.
13:51 asciilifeform ( when the 'repo man' side of the easycredit usg.auto.industry started having problem with clean repossession on acct of electrical locks )
13:51 deedbot http://trilema.com/2018/minigame-smg-april-2018-statement/ << Trilema - MiniGame (S.MG), April 2018 Statement
13:52 trinque asciilifeform: already explained that if the RSS is ever longer than 20 when checked, only 20 are coming through deedbot
13:52 trinque no plans to fix
13:52 asciilifeform trinque: right, makes sense
13:52 asciilifeform trinque: no particular reason to try to fix
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13:52 mircea_popescu so then why were you prodding him ?
13:52 trinque naw, but iirc spyked has one coming, maybe he'll do the problem better justice
13:53 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: previously thought 'if only deeper queue', then we moved whole thing to 'go and read'
13:53 mircea_popescu pretty much.
13:54 mircea_popescu may be actually the best thing for nsa anyway. let people use the website.
13:54 asciilifeform trinque: fwiw i dun expect any moar 1000-modulus bursts in foreseeable fyootoor
13:55 mircea_popescu hm.
13:57 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-06#1810461 << this has been my experience also. deedbot was more reliable each time I had to rip the thing out of one host, move to other, for obvious reasons of having to look under the log.
13:57 a111 Logged on 2018-05-06 15:58 mircea_popescu: i basically hope we keep losing it. seems the more indermeddling, the stronger the republic.
13:57 mircea_popescu the hood ?
13:58 trinque well, "what did I have in tmux" etc
13:58 mircea_popescu aha.
13:59 asciilifeform meanwhile from mircea_popescu's www, 'In my opinion the biggest red flag is that the opie intends to pay the artist by bitcoin. How many people have a bitcoin account. PayPal is a widely recognised payment method that has been around for a long time. It is legtimate, safe and easy to use. Even if the opie does not want to use PayPal what is wrong with bank transfer.' << lol!!
14:00 * asciilifeform was quite certain that this species had properly died out when the usdrate grew its most recent trailing 0
14:00 mircea_popescu there's just this massive class of entirely spurious sacks of shit, want to "participate in leadership" for a living. nothing else, they earned their keep at the ballot box.
14:01 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: typo in 'not going to to anything'
14:01 mircea_popescu entirely the source of the vague spasms misrepresented by pantsuit into "public support for the electoral process" and "representative legitimacy" -- dorks who literally imagine they earn their 4 years' living by putting down an x once.
14:01 mircea_popescu ty
~ 34 minutes ~
14:36 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-06#1810463 << in other shit you won't believe : girl cleanned out her purse, as it was getting heavy. produced as a result a satchel of coins, which she shows me, "check this shit out". "whoa, that's like... almost a kg. go weigh it, i'm curious." so she goes weigh it, and the scale says... 877!
14:36 a111 Logged on 2018-05-06 16:32 asciilifeform: soooo summary of the eating of tail end of Framedragger collection: 877 popped mods. nearly matched prediction from earlier ( http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1808858 )
~ 35 minutes ~
15:11 deedbot http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/05/06/it-turns-out-pharmacies-in-uruguay-are-actually-rather-civilized-compared-to-old-country/ << Bingo Blog - It Turns Out Pharmacies In Uruguay Are Actually Rather Civilized Compared To Old Country
15:18 deedbot http://trilema.com/2018/oregon-represent/ << Trilema - Oregon represent!
~ 18 minutes ~
15:37 mircea_popescu !#s "sulfmeto"
15:37 a111 2 results for "\"sulfmeto\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22sulfmeto%22
15:38 mircea_popescu yup, it's both a) the ideal medication for the sort of cold / gonorhea and b) readily available in sane lands.
15:47 mircea_popescu that said, you should prolly still see a doctor if you actually suspect you had pneumonia ; the risk is survivant infection, gotta make sure you actually cleanse the bugs not merely reduce them to livable level.
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~ 21 minutes ~
16:08 BingoBoingo http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-06#1810594 << It's in the cards soon. The option to put the waiting AFTER the relief has started instead of giving the bugs more time to do their damage is nice.
16:08 a111 Logged on 2018-05-06 19:47 mircea_popescu: that said, you should prolly still see a doctor if you actually suspect you had pneumonia ; the risk is survivant infection, gotta make sure you actually cleanse the bugs not merely reduce them to livable level.
16:09 mircea_popescu well, pneumonia is still a perfect way to die, even today. so yes, immediate response is necessary an' appropriate. but bear in mind that biseptol+paracetamol is field medicine, once back in town you're really supposed to go to a hospital and have some tailored cocktail made.
16:17 mod6 hola
16:18 mircea_popescu meanwhile in weblulz, "ad by Scry We’re building a community of people who can predict the future. We are looking for people who can predict the future, possibly better than experts can. Join Us at Scry."
16:20 mod6 :D
16:21 mod6 Who wants to rent the last Rockchip available rockchip @ Pizarro? Let us know! First come, first serve.
16:21 mod6 bah, redudancy.
16:22 mod6 Anyway, one left!
16:25 mod6 My rockchip has the FG hooked up, looking good.
~ 15 minutes ~
16:41 jurov asciilifeform: use the tarball as-is, i have not scanned more since
16:45 jurov and users submit their keys generated outside github, they recommend ssh-keygen
~ 52 minutes ~
17:37 mircea_popescu in other news : bad teacher (cameron diaz doing her usual fare) is actually pretty good. racoon eyes not giving a shit, very 1990s hipster highschooler aesthetic.
~ 1 hours 14 minutes ~
18:52 esthlos looking to cement understanding: with current V, file-level merges are impossible, but patches touching separate files can be applied sequentially. this way, it is possible, e.g., for different folx to work on separate parts of the project, and press there changes into one item.
18:54 esthlos now let's say that the new philosophy file contains hash of all directory contents in lexographic order, onse per patch. As far as i can see, this forces the tree of vpatches to be strictly linear, since latest patch depends strictly on single previous patch
18:54 esthlos so is this what's desired, or am I off the mark?
18:56 esthlos *their changes
19:00 trinque esthlos: that's incorrect, current V does not press all leaves
19:01 trinque current V presses the patches walking upward from the "head" given as a parameter
19:01 mod6 ^
19:02 trinque the history file is indeed the chosen solution to the problem of tree fragmentation. all patches which are intended to have permanence in the v tree shall edit that file.
19:03 trinque this oughtn't be enforced by the V implementation. operator might fully intend to *not* include a patch in the formal history of the project
19:03 trinque experimental patches for example.
19:03 esthlos so I'm not talking about pressing all the leaves, but when a vpatch has multiple parents, such as h or i in http://www.mod6.net/sps2_dag.png
19:06 trinque in current V, j had to *edit* items in both h and i to keep them in the set of pressed patches, if pressing to h
19:06 trinque and this is appropriate. the way to solve the problem of "have to edit something in each desired antecedent" is to do that, edit something, the history file
19:07 trinque if I haven't addressed what you're talking about though, please elaborate.
19:12 esthlos I think I understand, though I may be being thick. what I'm describing is differnt
19:13 esthlos if the new V defines the current state of the project as a single hash, then multiple parents (such as h, i, d, and j) becomes impossible
↖
19:14 trinque it doesn't, so how did you get there?
19:14 trinque you should ignore the "history" file notion entirely; it has no bearing on how your v-tron operates
19:15 trinque it is a fact about correct operation of a V, and perhaps a V client does something to help the operator along "hey you didn't edit the history file, wild patch!" but does absolutely nothing differently. it's just another file.
19:16 trinque sections of a given patch will yes, be parented on the previous, in a straight line, but this does not at all mean that the patch doesn't *also* have other parents, following the antecedent lines of the other files
19:16 trinque the graph will still look similar to the png you linked, but with a singular line also running through it
19:17 mod6 as a side-note, my vtron when doing operations and graphing checks *all* edges.
19:17 esthlos oh, I thought the new idea was to determine parenthood based off a single line in the philosophy file. this was my interpretation of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-23#1774751 and http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-23#1774760
19:17 a111 Logged on 2018-01-23 12:09 esthlos: to determine if b.vpatch descends from a.vpatch, my idea is to scan through b.vpatch and ensure that each ---(file,hash) matches some +++(file,hash) in a.vpatch. is this the standard procedure?
19:17 a111 Logged on 2018-01-23 14:28 mircea_popescu: esthlos it is not standard procedure ; the emerging consensus is to have a dedicated philosophy file which a) all patches must touch (by protocol) ; b) contains comments as to the patcher's state of mind and c) contains one line per patch uniquely identifying it, machine generated. the format's not fixed yet, but as phf is working on a new proper vdiff it's probably going to coalesce around a variant of whatever he uses.
19:18 trinque no, not at all.
19:18 trinque esthlos: you are misunderstanding it entirely
19:18 esthlos hmm
19:19 trinque parenthood is determined by the graph of patches as created by walking across the hashes *per file*
19:19 trinque and it so happens that one is a history file.
19:21 esthlos alright. What I don't understand, then, is mircea_popescu's response
↖
19:21 mircea_popescu esthlos> looking to cement understanding: with current V, file-level merges are impossible << huh ?
19:22 trinque esthlos: if I thought you'd gone that far afield, I would've asked you to do all this instead of a simple cleanup of interfaces
19:23 trinque please do not try to attach complexity barnacles to the history file, because it seemed very important in logs, or something.
19:24 trinque only thing that a V would even conceivably do related to "history" is indicate in "flow" that certain patches are not mainline, for lack of a history file edit
19:24 trinque if I tell the thing to press to a signed patch, it should press, history file edited or not.
19:24 mircea_popescu i confess i don't understand what he understood of v. this for instance fails to parse entirely : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-06#1810623
19:24 a111 Logged on 2018-05-06 23:13 esthlos: if the new V defines the current state of the project as a single hash, then multiple parents (such as h, i, d, and j) becomes impossible
19:25 trinque aha, I haven't a clue how he got to "thus can merge"
19:25 esthlos well, this seems like https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Ct4DkT7VYAAuuzx.jpg
19:26 mircea_popescu aanyways ; i agree with trinque in that the "history file" needs not be considered by the v implementation as anything in particular. it's a usage convention not a special case.
19:26 mircea_popescu so yes, a correctly implemented vtron has no history file notion.
19:27 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-06#1810638 << which part ?
19:27 a111 Logged on 2018-05-06 23:21 esthlos: alright. What I don't understand, then, is mircea_popescu's response
19:27 ben_vulpes esthlos: did you read mod6 or asciilifeform's v implementations before writing yours?
19:28 esthlos ben_vulpes: no, actually that's part of what asciilifeform encouraged me to do
19:29 mircea_popescu apparently in my naivite i bestowed upon trinque a larger dollop than originally realised.
19:29 mircea_popescu esthlos, what sort of barbarian, orcish, utterly insane and self-spiteful approach is this, whereby you set forth to do a thing without understanding the previous iterations of the thing you're doing ?!
19:31 mircea_popescu crossdressing, for all the social stigma, cruising highway bathrooms looking for glory holes, for all the infection potential, sitting by a wall and banging your head against it, they're dubious behaviours, yes, but this fucking takes the cake. what, you hate yourself QUITE TO THAT DEGREE ?! why ? what did you ever do to yourself to take such umbrage with yourself ?!
19:32 esthlos mircea_popescu: what I took away from your comment was that the philosophy file was to be used to determine vpatch ancestry, rather incorrectly it seems
19:33 mircea_popescu the idea was that it'd work passively to determine order in afore-ambiguous situations.
19:34 esthlos and wrt self hatred, I'm really at a loss. somehow it thought like a good idea
19:35 mircea_popescu but doesn't the sadness of solipsism strike you ? it's not hard enough to have to go to war, you'll do it naked and barefoot and hope you can find some flint to make a spear before the vietcong finds you and gangrapes you ?!
19:35 mircea_popescu they're there to help, not to hinder, all the accumulated piles of previous materiel. or does this not seem so ?
19:36 esthlos indeed. I am rather lonely, in general
19:36 mod6 moar forum then :]
19:36 ben_vulpes https://www.esquire.com/news-politics/news/a28718/why-men-love-war/
19:37 mircea_popescu well yes, but you don;'t have to be. i get it, in general everything's crap, but dja think i'd even for a second have permitted it if it were ? the stuff about, it's all stuff that somehow survived the republican demolition frenzy. it's not just random gunk.
19:42 trinque esthlos: so at least less to change about your v-tron right? though definitely *read* the others so you're more certain you understand what the thing is.
19:43 trinque I intentionally aimed you at "fix the interfaces" because it appeared that was the thing most glaringly wrong with it, and not all this
19:45 trinque it'd be a happy thing if I can stay with my welder in portage's innards while this happens and not have to end up doing that part myself
19:46 esthlos mircea_popescu: i'm at a loss of what to say. but really, it's moving
19:46 esthlos trinque: no, I didn't jump off the deep end without discussing it. I've already made the interface changes
19:46 mircea_popescu aite.
19:47 esthlos let me give it a once over, sign it, and send it your way
19:47 trinque ah neato
19:48 mircea_popescu meanwhile in saturday night fun, https://78.media.tumblr.com/413a1d5da92e80bc7b3c705f8f435ed5/tumblr_p7ouhi3DeZ1u7dxx4o1_1280.jpg
19:49 esthlos haha does her collar say BBC?
19:52 mircea_popescu possibru.
~ 1 hours 51 minutes ~
21:43 esthlos trinque: updated file at http://files.esthlos.com/crypto/v_2/v.lisp , sig at http://files.esthlos.com/crypto/v_2/v.lisp.esthlos.sig
21:48 esthlos mircea_popescu: wrt http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-03#1807632 << esthlos-v presses fine to vtools_vpatch_newline
21:48 a111 Logged on 2018-05-03 01:15 mircea_popescu: esthlos, a) http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-23#1774760 ; b) how does your item handle the original http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-09#1794417 problem ?
21:49 trinque very cool on both counts. reading.
21:50 mircea_popescu nice.
21:52 esthlos i'll field and questions/criticism tomorrow, gotta run for now
21:59 esthlos also want to say that above confusion was mostly misinterpretation of various comments on my part. not about what "v" is _now_, but on what was being asked of me
~ 21 minutes ~
22:21 trinque the communication gets easier the more you work it, so stick around
22:21 trinque btw looks like missing definition of process-exit-code ?
22:22 trinque I'd also like to see the cl-ppcre dependency drop (not only for the call out to quicklisp to obtain it)
22:22 trinque the parsing here is pretty simple, oughta be able to implement without hauling in a big honking dep
22:23 * trinque will digest more when he has a definition of process-exit-code
22:25 mircea_popescu esthlos, people throwing their hands in despair over something [they thought] you said is always way the fuck preferable to people throwing up their hands in despair over something you did -- specifically because there's a lot more room to misinterpret what's said than what's done.
~ 1 hours 19 minutes ~
23:45 trinque ah, sbclism. I'm on ccl over here. and looks like run-program's an undeclared dep on uiop
23:47 trinque wise thing to do is muntz off these foreign entanglements. v needs to stand on its own as much as possible, and ever more so.
23:47 trinque can implement a "run-program" of our own in here, implement for sbcl and ccl. I don't know that I've heard of anyone here using another.
23:48 trinque I'm fine with helping. could take a crack at it tomorrow.
23:53 trinque worth saying also that use of quicklisp is anti-v. it's a wad of packages some dude compiled, he's not in our WoT, no signatures on packages (last I checked), and to top it off, it hauls down foreign code and executes for you as a single op.
23:54 trinque v doesn't import the imperial convenience idiocy. it eats the world from where it stands.
23:55 trinque (think, when this is done, we have a basis for a vtronic lisp repository, aside a vtronic portage, and all the rest)
23:57 mircea_popescu i agree ; must stand on own more than possible
23:58 mircea_popescu trinque, cmucl = ccl ?
23:58 trinque !!v 55614ADF1D52CD18F16C72676CC8FF0FE7C24F13662752368EDE17A2F082F05D
23:58 deedbot trinque rated esthlos 1 << lisp vtronicist
23:58 trinque ccl is "clozure cl"
23:59 mircea_popescu i thought phf mostly did cmu cl
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