Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-04-10 | 2018-04-12 → ↓
00:01 mircea_popescu ckang for an ad-hoc illustration : admitting that you own sunway taihulight (the chinese supercomputer discussed in http://trilema.com/2017/resplenduminous/ ), which does something like 9.3 * 10^16 flops ; and admitting you take 1 flop to generate a key (it's more like 150-200 irl, but w/e) and 0 time to check for its correctness, then you could expect a correct guess about once every 51948826585749897379957793229925273575140
00:01 mircea_popescu 14 years of non-stop functioning.
00:02 mircea_popescu this is roughly speaking 376440772360506502753317342245835 times the age of our present universe (the big bang having taken place 13.8 or so billion years ago).
00:04 ckang hah, yea thats hard to comprehend
00:04 mircea_popescu in any case -- it's currently cheaper to mine it.
00:05 ckang sorta related, but what do you think about this.. https://www.wireguard.com/papers/wireguard-formal-verification.pdf
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00:05 ckang stateless VPN
00:05 mircea_popescu (which goes back to a long held asciilifeform notion, of "mining is a bug" -- certainly, but looky here : mining is also the direct result of "i want a shunt for the bruteforce, so i can say to people, "x is cheaper therefore y won't happen")
00:05 mircea_popescu ckang i don't read pdfs.
00:06 ckang that can use any openssl algorithm, I believe..
00:06 ckang https://www.wireguard.com/formal-verification/
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00:06 ckang the pdf goes a lot deeper but there some info on the site
00:07 mircea_popescu !#s formal verification
00:07 a111 12 results for "formal verification", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=formal%20verification
00:07 ckang https://www.wireguard.com/protocol/
00:07 ckang ah this, is what i was looking for
00:07 mircea_popescu the fundamental problem with formal verification is that it's not currently implemented seriously (which is to say -- completely, on small codebases). it's just machines poking at things generally, in an untenable theoretical model.
00:07 mircea_popescu consequently, as a broad field, it doesn't hold much interest here.
00:08 ckang its pretty interesting though if you need such a thing
00:08 ckang 4000 LOC (not including openssl)
00:08 mircea_popescu i'ma have to get back to you on this.
00:09 ckang sure was just curious since it was crypto related and you guys seem to know your stuff there
00:09 mircea_popescu o look, there's even a #wireguard
00:09 ckang ive been using it for some time and its been super solid, i just didnt know how strong it was from the cryptography side of things
00:09 mircea_popescu i dun know anyone uses it as it is.
00:10 ckang ive pushed 2TB though a tunnel before i rebooted the router for updates
00:10 ckang through*
00:10 mircea_popescu the claim is "The following protocols and primitives are used: ChaCha20 for symmetric encryption, authenticated with Poly1305, using RFC7539's AEAD construction; Curve25519 for ECDH; BLAKE2s for hashing and keyed hashing, described in RFC7693; SipHash24 for hashtable keys; HKDF for key derivation, as described in RFC5869"
00:11 ckang that stuff to a layman like myself goes right over my head ;)
00:11 ckang https://www.wireguard.com/performance/
00:11 mircea_popescu ckang you can read up on all the crypto functions, be they trapdoors or whatever, if you are interested. it's not illegible arcana.
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00:12 ckang this is what got me interested, can push a ton more data and with less latency on the same hardware vs. openvpn
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00:12 ckang by quite a bit
00:13 ckang theres mesh capability but ive not delved into that much yet
00:16 mircea_popescu "<mircea_popescu> (on #wireguard) zx2c4 (the owner, j. donenfeld) : if you're willing to set two hours apart on any day of your choosing to answer wireguard questions on #trilema, i'm willing to donate 1 btc to your project. let me know, i'm usually on freenode (this nick). thanks & gl." << asciilifeform spyked whoever else might care.
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00:17 ckang yea, thats awesome, hopefully he takes you up on that
00:17 mircea_popescu ckang you know the ancient story of how openbsd got saved from death ? it was eerily similar.
00:17 ckang the project has a lot of potential, its just not well known so providers arent selling it to the general masses
00:19 mircea_popescu i guess. on a superficial look it's certainly better than whatever tls bs.
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00:19 ckang mullvad does offer it and its pretty good through them, I lose about 2Mbit off my top end and and only gain 2ms when pinging 'google.com' (hard to do this test since geography and routing)
00:19 mircea_popescu ckang feel free to idle there, smooth things over if need be.
00:19 ckang sure thing yea, didn't think to check if they had a channel before
00:22 * mircea_popescu has finished eating logs. muahaha.
~ 15 minutes ~
00:37 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796043 << i read. it's a hannoboeckization of gossipd.
00:37 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 04:06 ckang: https://www.wireguard.com/formal-verification/
00:39 asciilifeform with generous helpings of c pointerolade, opensslism, mathemadturbatorily- squigglymarked pdfolade, tall claims of 'formal verification', etc
00:41 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796064 << naturally fast -- uses post-betrayal bernsteinian cryptosnakeoil, instead of old-fashioned nsa-inhouse snakeoil
00:41 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 04:12 ckang: this is what got me interested, can push a ton more data and with less latency on the same hardware vs. openvpn
00:41 asciilifeform ( e.g. chacha )
00:42 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796063 << the most important documents are ~not there~ for him to read : i.e. the wholly-absent proofs of strength for any of the symmetric poppycock
00:42 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 04:11 mircea_popescu: ckang you can read up on all the crypto functions, be they trapdoors or whatever, if you are interested. it's not illegible arcana.
00:43 ckang can you summarize that down to: 'it sucks' 'indifferent' 'has a future' ;)
00:43 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i know, but prepare a list of q's for when/if the guy shows up.
00:43 mircea_popescu and do me a favour -- not in this lambasting tone!
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00:43 ckang im not sure how to interpret what you are saying without knowing your opinions on those topics
00:44 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796071 << it is 'better' in same sense as ethereum 'better than' paypal.
00:44 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 04:19 mircea_popescu: i guess. on a superficial look it's certainly better than whatever tls bs.
00:44 mircea_popescu ckang too soon for you to interpret anything
00:44 mircea_popescu there's a process we go through here, first the engineers throw a fit, then i pick up the pieces.
00:45 ckang it is 'better' in same sense as ethereum 'better than' paypal <- so its slightly better than the worst? ;)
00:45 mircea_popescu "unprincipledly better" is the argument.
00:47 ckang im hoping he finds the resources to get an iOS client done
00:47 asciilifeform ckang: disinformation is not always a set of empty words; often can be a working mechanism, with moving parts, superficially correct
00:47 ckang for mobile applications this stuff makes a lot more sense
00:47 mircea_popescu why for mobile specifically ?
00:47 ckang battery life and data wise
00:47 asciilifeform aimed to displace and erase an actual honest item
00:47 mircea_popescu ah, uses less amps per bit ? i guess.
00:47 ckang you dont need a continuous connection
00:48 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you mean gossipd ? how can it possibly displace something that doesn't even exist!
00:48 asciilifeform easily,
00:48 asciilifeform like-that.
00:48 mircea_popescu like what ?
00:48 ckang you can hop between various towers or APs seamlessly without re-authenticating
00:48 ckang which takes a bit of time on openvpn
00:49 ckang so assuming the applications timeout is set appropriately, its like what mosh is to ssh (wireguard to openvpn)
00:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the displacement takes place in the imagination of the usg chair warmers, naturally. 'we'll cook up this boeckian substitute, no one will have any curiosity re the real thing, when it deigns to show up' being the idea.
00:51 mircea_popescu the only important question in computing is what i end up using anyway. to that standard, what difference could it possibly make.
00:51 ckang https://streamable.com/am04x heres short screencapture
00:51 ckang showing how quickly it will close one tunnel and open up another
00:52 ckang its faster than watch's 1s updates
00:52 asciilifeform !#s single packet
00:52 a111 28 results for "single packet", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=single%20packet
00:53 asciilifeform ckang: see ^ logs.
00:54 asciilifeform no martian tech needed, stateless routing is basic sanity
00:54 ckang yea but its nice to see in a working product that i can use now
00:54 ckang its much lighter such that it can even be run on ARM routers
00:55 ckang and not have super terrible performance
00:55 asciilifeform def of 'working' in re a ciphrator, is tricky question
00:55 asciilifeform e.g., rot13 -- 'works, is fast'
00:56 ckang oh theres an interesting read regarding its security flaw, operators. https://lists.zx2c4.com/pipermail/wireguard/2017-November/001969.html
00:58 asciilifeform ckang: this makes 0 sense as 'flaw'
00:58 ckang its not a 'flaw'
00:58 ckang but rather a concern people had
00:58 ckang there hasnt really been anything major in terms of flaws I could find.
00:58 ckang but that could be because theres not large adoption of it
00:59 ckang i just thought it was interesting for them to code protection in for such things
00:59 asciilifeform adoption can reveal presence of flaws, but not absence (tm)(r)
01:00 ckang it increases the surface area
01:00 mircea_popescu "It turns out that this strength might actually be a weakness for some. A small commercial VPN provider approached me recently about the fact they could see the allowed IPs mapping easily with WireGuard, whereas with OpenVPN it was hidden deep inside a process they didn't know how to debug. "Great," I thought. Not so fast. They were concerned that when compelled to retrieve this kind of information, they would no longer be ab
01:00 mircea_popescu le to claim, "we don't know how," since WireGuard makes it so easy. So, they hired me for a day to develop and open source a small solution for their unique use case and odd scenario." for lulz.
01:00 ckang and entropy of someone find it
01:00 asciilifeform ckang: this is a fundamentally african approach.
01:01 ckang if you are a security researcher would your time be better spent on something that 1 person uses or 100million people use?
01:02 ckang im talking about it from that perspective
01:02 ckang which is also a blessing because the government probably hasn't researched how to break it either
01:03 mircea_popescu ckang why do you expect the usercount makes a difference ?
01:03 ckang mircea_popescu: it doesnt really in how secure something is
01:03 mircea_popescu generally, more thought is given to the design of airplane cockpits than of women's shoes, notwithstanding more women wear shoes than fly airplanes.
01:03 ckang but does in terms of how many eyes and fingers are trying to break it
01:04 asciilifeform ckang: a correct program stays correct after million yrs of 'research' by butthurt usg. an incorrect one -- is incorrect immediately, even if no one 'researched'
01:04 ckang and with enough resources and time (similar to the brute-forcing), anything can come up
01:04 mircea_popescu the anything is not a correct symbol. it's an approximation, and it only holds up in domains of little interest.
01:05 ckang yea im not thinking in absolutes
01:06 mircea_popescu this expectation that "if i go out to clubs enough, eventually i'll meet guyneviere" is fundamentally broken -- the slut's dead.
01:06 mircea_popescu ain't nobody meeting her anywhere no mo.
01:08 * mircea_popescu adds "Gwenhwyfar ferch Ogrfan Gawr drwg yn fechan, gwaeth yn fawr." to the public record, now we even have welsh rhyming slang in here!
01:09 deedbot http://trilema.com/2018/front-page-woman/ << Trilema - Front Page Woman
01:20 lobbes I certainly wasn't planning on it being a long-term solution, but I see what you mean. Plus, if I'm burning time anyways on this I may as well just learn some lisp and use the trinquebot. Have an actual republican item out of the effort rather than another pile of stapled dildos >> http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796013
01:20 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 03:42 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1795922 << this is broken in the same way as the subjects of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-03#1792556 discussion.
~ 25 minutes ~
01:46 mircea_popescu lobbes quite.
01:52 ckang !!up kittycollector
01:52 deedbot kittycollector voiced for 30 minutes.
01:52 ckang i have one if you are interested mircea_popescu
01:52 kittycollector Hey
01:53 kittycollector Quiet room 😌
01:54 ckang ya just wait around ill ping u if he comes back
01:54 kittycollector 😎
02:06 lobbes !!v C2A2518901C3C94171AB952EFDDE5C7484FF9FBF648E6A737C91D009CEF1EC47
02:06 deedbot Invoiced ben_vulpes 0.0547 << Samsung 860 EVO 1TB 2.5 Inch SATA III Internal SSD (2018-04-11)
02:07 lobbes ^ using vwap of 6826.05 from nanotube's gribble
02:07 lobbes !!v FA59360A7EF0C7AC5A3482E3325AC191ECAB223AC75715661699A7551035E23D
02:07 deedbot lobbes unrated shinohai.
02:07 lobbes ^ que pasa contigo, shinohai? There's a way to step back gracefully that would preserve your solid reputation, but abandoning your post ain't that way.
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02:07 ckang nice drive
02:07 ckang how are the 860s over the 850?
02:08 lobbes no idea! wasn't for me
02:08 lobbes sadly, all my ssds are non-samsung
02:08 ckang ah its pretty much the only brand ive stuck with
02:09 lobbes yeah, I've heard it is the best
02:09 ckang but in terms of reliablity i have had better luck with spinning rust
02:09 ckang hitachi HSGT
02:09 ckang ultrastars, bulletproof
02:15 lobbes that also lines up with what I've learned thus far: hdd - reliability, ssd - speed
02:15 lobbes ssd, for example, is pretty much necessary for trb nodes to not fall behind.
02:17 mircea_popescu heya kittycollector
02:17 kittycollector Hey
02:17 mircea_popescu you here for teh titwriting ?
02:18 kittycollector Yes sir
02:18 mircea_popescu f9a75060
02:18 kittycollector Thx, give me a minute
02:18 mircea_popescu sure.
02:26 mircea_popescu !!up kittycollector
02:26 deedbot kittycollector voiced for 30 minutes.
02:28 mircea_popescu !!up zezizezi
02:28 deedbot zezizezi voiced for 30 minutes.
02:28 mircea_popescu you about ?
~ 1 hours 27 minutes ~
03:56 mircea_popescu !!up avgjoe
03:56 deedbot avgjoe voiced for 30 minutes.
03:56 mircea_popescu who might you be ?
03:57 avgjoe interested in running trb
03:57 mircea_popescu a cool. trouble with it ?
03:58 avgjoe no, just concerns about investing time setup it and being able to use it in the future
03:58 mircea_popescu specifically ?
03:58 avgjoe bech32 addresses, how the node behave?
03:59 mircea_popescu ignores them.
03:59 mircea_popescu this is intentional and will not change.
04:00 avgjoe i suppose that is a noob question, but if someone send me btc from a bech32 address to my trb legacy address, does the node ignore the tx?
04:00 mircea_popescu no.
04:01 avgjoe so there will never be a double standard with "tier 1 bitcoins" stored in legacy addresses and tier 2 stored in bech addresses, correct?
04:01 mircea_popescu anyway, there's a lot for you to read wrt to why specifically segwit is a usg-driven attack against bitcoin, and not supported by the bitcoin foundation. perhaps the recent http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1795944 is a good starting point ; but generally the logs are your friends, search them.
04:01 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 03:17 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1795919 << bitcoin addresses come in the form 1x, like say 1NwAjL6CwMHm5S9aeFfmop5VtqBA6aNJRT ; some dorks came up with an "extension". there are fundamental problems with their code, discussed in the logs, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-11#1697111 / http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-11#1697118
04:02 mircea_popescu avgjoe there already is a double standard : 1address bitcoin are bitcoin ; everything else is usg-crap.
04:02 mircea_popescu do not expect time/effort invested in usg-crap will yield anyhthing but tears for you.
04:02 mircea_popescu all segwit coins are going to be eventually unwound. this is again intentional, and not likely to change.
04:04 mircea_popescu running trb offers a firm guarantee that you will have your coins perpetually. running the various usg-sponsored "i can't believe it's not bitcoin" margerine offers a firm guarantee that a) any time you spend with them will be wasted on a long enough timeline and b) any resources you spend with them will be worthless on a long enough timeline. so bear that in mind.
04:04 mircea_popescu and with this, ima be off to bed. laters.
04:04 avgjoe thanks for the segwit discussion, i have just looked in the logs for "bech32" and it outputs very little
04:05 avgjoe thanks for now
04:07 avgjoe About this message i've a concern: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-11#1697118
04:07 a111 Logged on 2017-08-11 17:52 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the substantial weakness segwit adds to bitcoin chain security is that witout it, one needs the power to unwind the chain AND the keys of old txn to steal bitcoin. whereas with it, one only needs the hash power, as anyone can spend the segwit shit.
04:11 avgjoe Basically segwit it could be reprhased as the "i'm a good politician that will enforce the ---good--- policy but to enforce this i'll need to take some of your sovereignty (keys), but bear with me, hashrate is gonna protect you"
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04:12 avgjoe sorry for the english, trying to understand if i'm getting the point correctly
~ 1 hours 55 minutes ~
06:07 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796067 <-- grrr, I lack too many includes to engage in a proper discussion on this. and sifting through the papers puts me into a rabbit hole of deeper and deeper includes and, frustratingly, unresolved medicine tactics. and I've wandered through such rabbit holes for the last 4 years.
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06:07 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 04:16 mircea_popescu: "<mircea_popescu> (on #wireguard) zx2c4 (the owner, j. donenfeld) : if you're willing to set two hours apart on any day of your choosing to answer wireguard questions on #trilema, i'm willing to donate 1 btc to your project. let me know, i'm usually on freenode (this nick). thanks & gl." << asciilifeform spyked whoever else might care.
06:14 spyked anyway, I'd be happy to read a version of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796038 (or better yet, a blog post/series) that explicitly references or otherwise explains all the priors and provides an actual proof, not just "we model this in tamarin, gtfo, install it and read the proof it generates". I want to be able to find out precisely what "symbolic reasoning/analysis" means in their universe, wtf is a "message deduction theory"
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06:14 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 04:05 ckang: sorta related, but what do you think about this.. https://www.wireguard.com/papers/wireguard-formal-verification.pdf
06:14 spyked etc. otherwise this all looks like word salad.
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06:15 spyked !#s noise protocol
06:15 a111 14 results for "noise protocol", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=noise%20protocol
06:15 spyked ^ also probably relevant discussion
~ 24 minutes ~
06:39 shinohai http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796166 <<< I think the time for grace has passed, and if it isn't clear enough already I won't be wasting anymore time participating in Republican affairs since obviously I have nothing else to contribute. I did, in fact, offer to help you add the gribble functions to your bot or share my version of the plugins (Which incidentally, don't require any of the stuff you
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06:39 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 06:07 lobbes: ^ que pasa contigo, shinohai? There's a way to step back gracefully that would preserve your solid reputation, but abandoning your post ain't that way.
06:39 shinohai mentioned here: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-10#1795655). But if that, and things like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-10#1795655 are throwing you for such a loop, I don't imagine my plugins will help you at all.
06:39 a111 Logged on 2018-04-10 19:00 lobbes: I attempted to slap a gribble instance up on pizarro shell last night, but hit a roadblock trying to get 'tcl' working locally (sqlite3 makefile, which gribble depends on, will not run without tcl apparently)
06:40 shinohai Espero que ahora si entiendes muy claro "Lo que esta pasando conmigo".
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~ 2 hours 38 minutes ~
09:18 mod6 Thanks for your patience with me this past year, #trilema. It's been a long one.
~ 49 minutes ~
10:08 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796216 << that's because the 'field' is a rat's nest of deliberate, obscurantist claptrap. 'there is no there, there.' can burn considerably more than 4y, it is a bottomless pit -- a kind of mechanized astrology.
10:08 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 10:07 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796067 <-- grrr, I lack too many includes to engage in a proper discussion on this. and sifting through the papers puts me into a rabbit hole of deeper and deeper includes and, frustratingly, unresolved medicine tactics. and I've wandered through such rabbit holes for the last 4 years.
10:09 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796218 << if the usg claptrap scaffolding were removed, the whole thing would vanish, like a toy balloon with skin peeled away. there'd be no 'product'.
10:09 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 10:14 spyked: anyway, I'd be happy to read a version of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796038 (or better yet, a blog post/series) that explicitly references or otherwise explains all the priors and provides an actual proof, not just "we model this in tamarin, gtfo, install it and read the proof it generates". I want to be able to find out precisely what "symbolic reasoning/analysis" means in their universe, wtf is a "message deduction theory"
10:12 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796220 << that's because... it IS salad. with a perfume of 'proofiness' sprayed on , as described in e.g. http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1390 re urbitists
10:12 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 10:14 spyked: etc. otherwise this all looks like word salad.
10:13 asciilifeform the premier peddlers of this type of snake oil 'commercially' (i.e. fattened on lavish usg contracts) are the cryptol people. they've spawned, unsurprisingly, shoddy imitators.
10:13 asciilifeform !#s cryptol
10:13 a111 8 results for "cryptol", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=cryptol
10:13 asciilifeform ^ see also.
10:18 asciilifeform i do not have anything against mechanized proof per se. but in practice it is in ~100% of published cases used as an attempted 'i can't believe it's not self-evident correctness!' margarinesque substitute for fits-in-head.
10:25 spyked aha. I would add that I for one would gladly read even informal, less rigorous proofs, provided they helped me understand the protocol and the underlying knowledge. also am ok with "this automated thing is the mobility aid we use for the brain, and it works this way"; (and ftr, I looked over the tamarin and got stuck "symbolic model" and other obscure terms).
10:26 spyked but as it is, I could only ask stupid questions such as "what's wrong with modelling this using petri nets". or any other simpler method.
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10:27 spyked *got stuck at
10:40 asciilifeform spyked: the authors of these wonders, have very other goals in mind than to help you understand. quite the opposite.
10:41 asciilifeform i.e. 'magic haskell oracle pronounced that my proof is proofy-enuff. nao gimme tenure.'
10:42 asciilifeform spyked: prev. thread, incidentally, re 'noise protocol' : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701852
10:42 a111 Logged on 2017-08-22 12:02 asciilifeform: the other lul in the 'noise protocol' is the use of symmetric ciphers
10:42 asciilifeform with special emphasis on http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701858 .
10:42 a111 Logged on 2017-08-22 12:07 asciilifeform: the 'noise protocol' link is hilarious -- even features the classic leper's bell of nsa committee , the null-cipher
10:44 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796228 << shinohai -- what's the plan, 'i'ma switch off my bot, they will see, will SEE, how necessary i was!11' or wat.
10:44 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 10:40 shinohai: Espero que ahora si entiendes muy claro "Lo que esta pasando conmigo".
10:50 spyked asciilifeform, indeed. I inevitably got reminded of the noise thread when stumbling upon: "WireGuard, the secure network tunnel, uses an interesting Diffie-Hellman authenticated key exchange protocol based on NoiseIK, [...]". so. yeah, "interesting" indeed.
10:55 spyked anyway, I can see mircea_popescu's point re "but unlike gossipd, this broken implementation exists!". but unlike, say, Bitcoin, which, broken implementations or not, I can understand by going to the sources, this I can't, at least not without getting myself deep into the slime pit.
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~ 33 minutes ~
11:28 asciilifeform spyked: this is where the empire shines, really -- they can always muster the brute ox power to make a 'this at least exists' ersatz.
11:29 asciilifeform speaking of which, apparently AS OF TODAY gentoo portage latest ver DEMANDS gpg2.
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11:29 asciilifeform goodbye 'emerge portage'.
11:32 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> back when some imbecile went to fake news media rather than coming to qntra, got sent to jail for it, STILL did not admit there exists no media online besides qntra. << AHA the "Reality Winner" http://qntra.net/2017/06/reality-winner-arrested-for-leaking-to-omidyar-and-greenwalds-fake-qntra/
11:34 mircea_popescu trinque http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/BZQ0e/?raw=true
11:34 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo ty!
11:36 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796214 << yes, except for the part where "hashrate is gonna protect you". the whole POINT of taking some of the information OUT of the blockchain is to try and reduce the protection of hashrate, and make everyone dependent on protection by non-hashrate. which is WHY this is usg move against bitcoin. i don't need no stinking fuckwit to "help me", and i don't care why he thinks i do. i know wh
11:36 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 08:11 avgjoe: Basically segwit it could be reprhased as the "i'm a good politician that will enforce the ---good--- policy but to enforce this i'll need to take some of your sovereignty (keys), but bear with me, hashrate is gonna protect you"
11:36 mircea_popescu y he wants me to think i do, it's all in http://trilema.com/2013/fried-chicken/
11:37 mircea_popescu moreover, the "hashrate" bullshit, besides being false, is also specifically engineered to follow a certain hope of imperial survival, the supposed "network effect", ie http://trilema.com/2013/digging-through-archives-yields-gold/#selection-109.0-113.830
11:37 mircea_popescu the problem for them is that i now have a pill for that, and http://trilema.com/2014/georg-ritter-von-flondor-and-what-his-unhappy-life-can-teach-us/ ie, not taking any fucking prisoners nor negotiating with idiots. so...
11:38 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796216 << the whole thing is phrased as "asking questions". one can never be in a rabbit hole so deep they can't ask questions. it's not your job to make any determination, so why stress.
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11:38 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 10:07 spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796067 <-- grrr, I lack too many includes to engage in a proper discussion on this. and sifting through the papers puts me into a rabbit hole of deeper and deeper includes and, frustratingly, unresolved medicine tactics. and I've wandered through such rabbit holes for the last 4 years.
11:39 asciilifeform meanwhile, hell froze over, a ban on microshit being seriously floated in ru parliament
11:39 mircea_popescu believe it or not.
11:40 mircea_popescu trade wars, dood, the first step of "governments" coming to terms with malthusian shock (also known as "when the ideology of abundance runs ashore on the jagged rocks of reality")
11:41 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796224 << a, really ? well best of luck to you then!
11:41 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 10:39 shinohai: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796166 <<< I think the time for grace has passed, and if it isn't clear enough already I won't be wasting anymore time participating in Republican affairs since obviously I have nothing else to contribute. I did, in fact, offer to help you add the gribble functions to your bot or share my version of the plugins (Which incidentally, don't require any of the stuff you
11:47 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796242 << this is a problem of how you phrase your questions. see, the fundamental, and apparently enduring, cockroach here is that you have an "in-control" mental model you won't diverge from, and it is disabling for your mental process in the following way : you judge "you can't contribute" arbitrarily, and damagingly, in the exact sense contemplated in http://trilema.com/2014/a-conceit-or
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11:47 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 14:26 spyked: but as it is, I could only ask stupid questions such as "what's wrong with modelling this using petri nets". or any other simpler method.
11:47 mircea_popescu -the-importance-of-blogging/ or http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760915 or otherwise in the log. "how can you predict what will be useful TO YOURSELF in a few years ? let alone to others, today or later ?"
11:47 a111 Logged on 2017-12-29 21:30 mircea_popescu: here's a problem i perceive phf : you could guess about log(n) of my understanding of various things that interest me on the basis of reading trilema ; i could not guess epsilon of thge say your understanding of sbcl on the basis of reading whatever you provide voluntarily. i could glean it from this kind of interaction, but here's what that means : http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-29#1760839
11:47 mircea_popescu by forcing an answer to a question you're not in a position to answer ("is this useful y/n") you end up baking incorrectness into your tree, which then can be relied on by further incorrectness coming down the line for support.
11:48 mircea_popescu and the issue repeats with questions, "i don't know what question to ask such that the response puts me in full control of everything" is not a valid mapping for "i don't know what questions to ask". you've seen me n times ask questions ~about the thing~, ie, to allow the thing to be illuminated, irrespective of whether they "help" me to anything. cuz i don't care about myself ~in this sense~. i care about myself in the other
11:48 mircea_popescu sense, the sense whereby the enemy can't rely on freinds within the walls.
11:50 mircea_popescu now, it's evident where this misrepresentation of intellectual process comes from -- the inept notion of caregivers kid should be "responsible". kid shouldn't be nor is responsible in that sense ; if one of my girls sets the house on fire through unforeseen effect of reasonable application of item, she may feel guilty as a residual side effect of the sexual abuse her parents and broader society put her through, but she won't
11:50 mircea_popescu be in trouble.
11:52 mircea_popescu also, if nuclear weapons ended the world in 1970 ~good for them~, and if the supercollider "ended reality" in the 2010s (as various imbeciles proposed as a valid reason "not to do it" all over the oh-so-useful-and-valuable "science press"), GOOD FOR IT.
11:52 mircea_popescu it is not written upon reality that it must endure forever, let it mind it's own fucking affairs and endure if it has the mettle ; nor was any penguin born with a certified license to eternal life. let them learn how to forge and fire cannon or let them get the fuck off the evolutionary tree.
11:53 mircea_popescu and in general, the cockcages are optional, even if misrepresented as mandatory by mommy.
11:59 trinque mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/3baoy/?raw=true
11:59 BingoBoingo The strongest cockcage is the one that lives in the redditard hea
11:59 BingoBoingo d
12:00 mircea_popescu and now i can't fucking find the core reference of this discussion, whether it was on trilema or in the log i don't remember, but it examined how would i have evaluated the eventual utility of $item at early stage, and made the point indeed very well.
12:02 mircea_popescu trinque will do.
12:02 BingoBoingo I am guessing it probably isn't http://trilema.com/2014/what-interests-me-in-a-project/
12:03 mircea_popescu notrly. that's kinda the problem, lotta good stuff kinda-related, but there was one specific fucking item.
12:03 mircea_popescu i need better indexing, and i don't know how the fuck to make it ;/
12:04 BingoBoingo Right, even a classic algo strictly Pagerank google whitelisted to the WoT still wouldn't grep with nuance
12:07 mircea_popescu pretty infuriating.
12:10 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-22#1701858 << incidentally, one of the things that made me chuckle to myself, was the usage of empty enciphered packets to heartbeat.
12:10 a111 Logged on 2017-08-22 12:07 asciilifeform: the 'noise protocol' link is hilarious -- even features the classic leper's bell of nsa committee , the null-cipher
12:10 mircea_popescu nobody apparently asked "why not send the time ?"
12:11 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: picture if the selector on kalash had a 'fires backwards' position.
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12:11 mircea_popescu if such a rifle could be made, the us would have made it. physics got in their way.
12:12 mircea_popescu anyway, there's evidently a pile of very simple and very useful questions to ask. "Why not send the time ?".
12:12 BingoBoingo In other news after spending a Uruguayo/a free night slaying the Inca in bed my mood is not quite so dismal. As long as there's no "want of a nail" cascades alf shouldn't be greeted by Eeyore. This still does nothing to solve the indexing problem.
12:13 asciilifeform well considering that ~whole point~ of heartbl^H^Heat 'feature' is to assist knownplaintextattack...
12:13 mircea_popescu what the fuck do i care "what it all means in the end". let the end fucking care. and how the hell could any process baked in "$the end". imagine if there was a language which required as part of any function call the exit code of the program. wut ?!
12:13 mircea_popescu bake* in
12:16 mircea_popescu (and this is no small matter, the current principal driver of pantsuit popularity among the not-retarded set is exactly this : their dumb mother told them when they were wee kids that they must have the exit code for any function call, and they never examined the idiotic outpour of the useless dumb whore, so there they sit today, unable to act unless some replicant of the original dumb whore whispers in their ear "all is well
12:16 mircea_popescu " so they can put that putative exit code into their function calls and function. what the fuck!)
12:18 asciilifeform 'It Is Texas Law That When Two Trains Meet Each Other At A Railroad Crossing, Each Shall Come To A Full Stop, And Neither Shall Proceed Until The Other Has Gone'
12:19 mircea_popescu (and this is also why i pronounced http://trilema.com/2016/the-story-of-elliot-rodger-by-elliot-rodger-adnotated-part-one/ as the ultimate hero : because he, unlike "the smarter" lot of them, actually wanted a girlfriend TO USE HER, not so that his dumb head can finally function, oh, $woman-in-head is here to tell me all will be ok, now i can pour myself a glass of milk whereas before--couldn't. this much is categorical advan
12:19 mircea_popescu cement over the current state of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-04#1792978 set)
12:19 a111 Logged on 2018-04-04 22:46 mircea_popescu: anyway, since we're reading "slate star codex", ie scott alexander's blog (the pantsuit-annointed official tlp replacement so tlp never actually happened), let's lul together : https://archive.is/Yyblu#selection-1259.852-1259.1460
12:20 mircea_popescu asciilifeform incidentally, that's not even such a bad rule, force escalation. "you got into a mess on your own power, you are forbidden using your own power again until someone else who knows wtf they're doing PUTS YOU IN A DIFFERENT SITUATION".
12:20 mircea_popescu let them be both picked by cranes and moved at great expense.
12:20 mircea_popescu next time they won't fucking do the dumb.
12:20 asciilifeform amusingly enuff, this is approx what actually happens
12:20 mircea_popescu right-o.
12:21 asciilifeform ( smoking wreck will be, yes, moved by crane... )
12:22 mircea_popescu truly exactly how nature works.
12:22 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo doesn't she want titmoney ?
12:22 * asciilifeform fell in luvv with 'sokoban' as a boy, it was ~the~ game, and only many yrs later realized the appeal: so much like in actual life, player spends good % of time in 'yer phucked, whether know it or not, all yer moves are futile' state
12:23 mircea_popescu ehehe.
12:23 mircea_popescu sokoban is actually a great item because it correctly exposes a primitive -- not of "social discouse" or w/e the fuck, an actual item of reality.
12:23 mircea_popescu it's in this sense an important game in a way doom or warcraft 2 or w/e are not.
12:24 asciilifeform hmm wonder if ...
12:24 asciilifeform ;;google そこばん
12:24 asciilifeform oh grrr, it was shinohai's bot wasnnit.
12:25 mircea_popescu the translate call ? yeah.
12:25 asciilifeform yea meant to push 'translate'. but both, grr.
12:25 mircea_popescu !!up kittycollector
12:25 deedbot kittycollector voiced for 30 minutes.
12:26 mircea_popescu asciilifeform so what are you beefing over, you got a bot, have it translate.
12:28 asciilifeform when asciilifeform is no longer catastrophically swamped with 9000 horrors, will possibly attempt a general-purpose bot ( ideally with real, rather than googlistic, dictionaries even )
12:28 asciilifeform but to be fair 'translator' only turned back into open problem a week or so ago.
12:28 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796253 << if only. bitcoin would fail the exact same tests today. it's built out of windows basically.
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12:28 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 14:55 spyked: anyway, I can see mircea_popescu's point re "but unlike gossipd, this broken implementation exists!". but unlike, say, Bitcoin, which, broken implementations or not, I can understand by going to the sources, this I can't, at least not without getting myself deep into the slime pit.
12:28 mircea_popescu !!up heyleeecx
12:28 deedbot heyleeecx voiced for 30 minutes.
12:29 heyleeecx im here to show my tits apparently cx
12:29 mircea_popescu ever did this before ?
12:29 heyleeecx nope
12:29 mircea_popescu e3355c3b
12:29 mod6 asciilifeform does have a lot on his plate. maybe one of the newer gentlemen want to try their hand at a bot.
12:29 phf asciilifeform: don't need google translate for that one, can just use btcbase :p
12:29 phf "SO KO BA N"
12:30 asciilifeform phf: i wanted to see what demented crapola google spits out for it
12:30 mircea_popescu "would you like to buy shoes"
12:30 asciilifeform ( i dun need the phonetics, i keyed it in on an actual kbd by hand, know how to sound it lol )
12:31 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> BingoBoingo doesn't she want titmoney ? << Maybe? I am inclined to wait until she tires of paying for things to present the opportunity or I get bored. She's espaΓ±ol as a single language and does not understand technology.
12:31 mircea_popescu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZYUvD6E5pU << apaprently there's also a platformer
12:31 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it was actually pretty popular, overshadowed imho undeservedly by the less cerebral tetris
12:31 mircea_popescu what was ?
12:32 heyleeecx !!register http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/iReW7/?raw=true
12:32 deedbot 2FD0EEEC595AE266F3DFDED3BF9FF1C7D1A9EF2E registered as heyleeecx.
12:32 asciilifeform orig sokoban
12:32 mircea_popescu well yes, i had it.
12:32 asciilifeform oh lol ~actual~ platformer, with gravity, ha
12:32 mircea_popescu yes.
12:33 mircea_popescu i never saw the item in youtube above before.
12:33 douchebag mircea_popescu: I told this girl to use an actual wallet this time and not one of those bullshit ones :D
12:33 mircea_popescu ty!
12:35 phf asciilifeform: i'm just making sure the new feature is sufficiently advertised
12:35 asciilifeform http://www.bestoldgames.net/eng/old-games/sokoban.php << the ver i had, back in stone age
12:36 phf the recommended videos for that arcade sokoban reminded me that there used to be a unix bomberman clone, that had multiplayer implemented by connecting to multiple x11 servers and having each window/connection be a separate player. we used to spend nights at moscow state unix room playing that thing on a local lan
12:37 asciilifeform pretty neat
12:38 phf xbomber now sdl bomber, presumably without the multiplayer http://www.linuxmotors.com/SDL_bomber/downloads/
12:38 asciilifeform next, waylandbomber
12:39 * asciilifeform from that period recalls only 'penguin' or what was it, where you shoot billgates heads. where did THAT evaporate to.
12:40 phf xbill :)
12:40 asciilifeform aaa yes
12:40 phf http://www.xbill.org/
12:40 asciilifeform ha! i had nfi.
12:44 mircea_popescu phf pretty sure i played that one
12:44 asciilifeform in other noose, google domains begin to be fw'd in ru
12:44 asciilifeform ( supposedly. i have not personally tested. )
12:44 mircea_popescu the bomberman thing i mean
12:48 phf i'm surprised how little mention of it is on the internet. i guess the peculiar multiplayer mode means that it could only be popular in a very few places
12:50 phf and tbf it was rapidly replaced by quake1, once the engine was released in 99. i'm pretty msu had own port going, because the graybeards (i.e. 22 year old grad students) would sometimes patch things overnight when we ran into bugs
12:52 heyleeecx oki gonna write the code now cx
12:52 heyleeecx just hold up for a few
12:55 heyleeecx https://i.imgur.com/76CPCX0.jpg
12:55 heyleeecx I messed up the first time and had to re write it oopsie!
12:56 asciilifeform what happened to the 3's ?
12:58 heyleeecx oh noeeez! i was writing upside down and made an accident
12:58 mircea_popescu lol made an accident
12:58 mircea_popescu !!pay heyleeecx 0.02
12:59 deedbot Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/XEeob/?raw=true
12:59 mircea_popescu !!up heyleeecx
12:59 deedbot heyleeecx voiced for 30 minutes.
12:59 mircea_popescu !!rate heyleeecx 1 mades accidents
12:59 deedbot Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/XSN3m/?raw=true
12:59 mircea_popescu so what do you make, other than accidents, heyleeecx ?
13:01 douchebag more accidents, it's my life story basically
13:01 heyleeecx i like oragami
13:02 douchebag im just glad i get out of this shithole in less than two months
13:03 mircea_popescu heyleeecx but i mean, do you work ? go to school ?
13:05 heyleeecx not right now im still deciding what I want to do with the rest of my life, it's a LOTTT of pressure thats been bothering me for awhile
13:06 heyleeecx i think psychology would be cool but i dont know if i would be able to handle all of the college stuff
13:06 mircea_popescu um. so how do you eat ?
13:07 heyleeecx i love cooking and trying new foods for myself but i have worked at restaurants before and hated it
13:09 mircea_popescu yes, but if you don't work and if you don't study, how do you obtain the things that you eat.
13:09 mircea_popescu !!up kittycollector
13:09 deedbot kittycollector voiced for 30 minutes.
13:11 heyleeecx i live with my parents right now
13:11 kittycollector Hi mircea_popescu - very sorry I sat down to only a second and ended up falling asleep on the couch πŸ˜ͺ
13:11 kittycollector For only*
13:11 kittycollector Sorry phone, I took it this morning if you wanted it still.
13:12 kittycollector https://usercontent.irccloud-cdn.com/file/hKDKTxiZ/image.jpg
13:14 mircea_popescu heyleeecx i see.
13:15 mircea_popescu !!pay kittycollector 0.02
13:15 deedbot Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/LtHFW/?raw=true
13:16 mircea_popescu kittycollector do you collect kittens ?
13:16 kittycollector Again I appologize, I didn't mean for it to happen. Have a break at work now.
13:16 kittycollector Lol, no not quite, I have 1.
13:16 kittycollector But would own more if I could, maybe getting a 2nd this summer.
13:17 mircea_popescu i thought it was more of an age-related thing
13:17 kittycollector Growing up we've always had 2, I think they keep each other entertained.
13:17 mircea_popescu that they do.
13:18 kittycollector I could be a crazy cat lady some day, πŸ’―
13:18 mircea_popescu i love you phf, did i mention it recently ?
13:18 BingoBoingo kittycollector: Indoors or outdoors?
13:18 kittycollector Indoors
13:18 mircea_popescu unlike dogs, cats kinda do ok indoors also...
13:18 mircea_popescu kittycollector ever been to turkey ?
13:18 BingoBoingo That they do.
13:18 kittycollector I haven't, seems like its a touchy area at the moment though.
13:19 mircea_popescu i guess. but they have humongous cat culture.
13:19 mircea_popescu i think istanbul is actually the terran capitol of catempire.
13:19 kittycollector I dont foresee myself traveling over there any time soon.
13:19 BingoBoingo The outdoor cats here are too docile. No OG barncats murdering the shit out of nature here. Sure there's some cats, but there's no fear in the local pigeons
13:20 kittycollector I don't think mine could survive outside at this point
13:20 mircea_popescu #nofear
13:20 kittycollector Hes a big baby lol
13:21 mircea_popescu speaking of which, living with parents is not healthy, heyleeecx
13:21 kittycollector So what do you all do?
13:22 mircea_popescu kittycollector try to take over the world!
13:22 BingoBoingo Eh, get him a couple pet hamsters. That'll get the cat healthier.
13:22 kittycollector Pinky & the brain
13:23 mircea_popescu can't see that without thinking of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eIu4fP4fOHE
13:23 BingoBoingo Wait, are trying to take over or carve out a safe space to act with impunity? I guess really there isn't a difference.
13:24 kittycollector Lol, same here. That phrase every time
13:28 heyleeecx i want to move but i dont know what to do with my life
13:29 BingoBoingo !!up heyleeecx
13:29 deedbot heyleeecx voiced for 30 minutes.
13:35 deedbot http://qntra.net/2018/04/chinese-customs-agents-deny-entry-to-us-garbage/ << Qntra - Chinese Customs Agents Deny Entry To US Garbage
13:48 BingoBoingo !!up kittycollector
13:48 deedbot kittycollector voiced for 30 minutes.
~ 27 minutes ~
14:16 douchebag mircea_popescu:
14:16 douchebag I have another girl interested
14:16 mircea_popescu aite
14:16 douchebag but she'll be here in about an hr
14:17 douchebag on her way home right now
14:17 mircea_popescu heyleeecx yes, but the problem is likely that you overvalue yourself. which is why all the " LOTTT of pressure" and bs.
14:17 mircea_popescu run off with the circus or something.
14:18 douchebag dat gypsie life
14:19 mircea_popescu it's hard, you know, middle class parents keep telling girlie she's valuable and important and in charge and whatnot, when none of those are the case. then as adolescence is drawing to an end, all those kited checks of "safety" and "better not have unprotected sex with random people if you're not 100% sure they know your name" come to be paid and well... there's nothing to pay them with.
14:20 mircea_popescu !!up heyleeecx
14:20 deedbot heyleeecx voiced for 30 minutes.
14:20 mircea_popescu heyleeecx think about it : you spent however long, 20 years doing what your parents told you, and what's it got you ? a lot of pressure ? the sad situation where you don't know what to do with yourself ?
14:21 mircea_popescu gotta cut your losses and move on SOMETIME. they were wrong, because stupid&pretentious, forget the whole pile of nonsense and try something else.
14:21 heyleeecx i just dont really have skills that would make me successful i feel
14:21 mircea_popescu why do you have to be "successful" ?
14:22 BingoBoingo Successful's and outcome of doing, and doing is the only way to build skills
14:22 heyleeecx where do I start??? right now I have nothing
14:23 mircea_popescu go to the closest highway, preferably wearing shoes only, and see who wants to give you a ride. that's where you start. where do you want to start ffs.
14:23 heyleeecx i dont think i want to be a prostitute
14:24 mircea_popescu but nobody asked you what you want. your entire problem is you keep positing what you want matters any.
14:24 mircea_popescu it does not matter, at all.
14:25 heyleeecx i want to find something i am good at to find success in life
14:25 mircea_popescu asshole "parents" ie child molesters living a century prior at least had the common decency to create a security plan for their fucktoys. yes they kept the "lady" girlies in a cage their whole life, but then also had an entire system whereby someone would come along and marry them.
14:25 mircea_popescu nowadays, they still do the molestation like then, but they've done away with the golden net. outright fucking obscene.
14:26 mircea_popescu heyleeecx this whole "something i'm good at" is fairytale dust, they took the "prince charming" item and translated it for the "empowered, hear her roar" girly. now you gotta find a prince-charming-thingtodo ? gimme a break.
14:26 mircea_popescu there's no such thing, as there never was such a thing.
14:27 heyleeecx so you are saying just find a good husband?
14:27 mircea_popescu no. i am saying get over yourself, be a truckstop hooker for a few years until the middle class is washed out of your hair, then do what can be done.
14:28 BingoBoingo And in Javascript today: https://lists.linuxfoundation.org/pipermail/bitcoin-dev/2018-April/015873.html
14:28 heyleeecx i dont want to go to jail for being a hooker
14:28 mircea_popescu why not ?
14:28 mircea_popescu at least then you'd know you're in jail.
14:28 BingoBoingo heyleeecx: Plenty of places where it's legal
14:29 mircea_popescu anyway, there's just enough time left before the middle class extinction event that by the time you're coming out, the mass rape of all your sisters that "knew better" would just be getting underway. maybe you can even help one or two.
14:29 BingoBoingo Anyways, fear of going to jail is a sign of already being in jail
14:30 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo pastebin that ?
14:30 BingoBoingo http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/WGxX0/?raw=true
14:30 mircea_popescu ty
14:30 mircea_popescu heh
14:31 BingoBoingo The lulz are all in that first sentence: "A significant number of past and current cryptocurrency products contain a JavaScript class named SecureRandom(), containing both entropy collection and a PRNG."
14:32 mircea_popescu "* don't take the output of a CSPRNG and pass it through RC4" should have been "don't whiten, fucktard"
14:32 asciilifeform lol, js crypto still exists!?
14:32 mircea_popescu asciilifeform webwallets, yes ?
14:32 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: typical 'gox' is moar of a plain paypal / sslism thing, rather than js
14:33 heyleeecx well thanks for all the advice but i have to run ttyl
14:33 mircea_popescu later.
14:34 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: These are blockchain.info style things where they market "all the crypto happens in your browser window"
14:34 mircea_popescu sometimes i wonder how #trilema actually reads from the other side. "i'm a confused girly with adolescent tits and a pretty smile, did they just tell me to go hang naked by the highway ?!?!"
14:35 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: hey, who am i to complain, the folx who dun feel like paying for 'expensive' FG -- are more than welcome to pay the cost of using js prng etc
14:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform my thoughts exactly. the swarm of idiots use non-qntra "press", get reality winnings, non-nsa entropy, get etc.
14:35 mircea_popescu let'em.
14:36 asciilifeform stipendi peccatus (tm)(r)
14:37 asciilifeform in other noose, asciilifeform found that FG connects to rockchiptron with 10cent straight cable, sans usb
14:37 asciilifeform ( thing has ttl-voltaged serial ports and a ready 5v out )
14:38 BingoBoingo If someone want's to write up the failure, may be publishable, but I've got no angle for it other than repeating "stop hitting yourself"
14:38 BingoBoingo <asciilifeform> in other noose, asciilifeform found that FG connects to rockchiptron with 10cent straight cable, sans usb << Rockchip workstation just became a lot more interesting
14:38 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: to be fair, this is true of almost all similar boards on the market
14:39 asciilifeform ( e.g. 'allwinner' , 'snapdragon', even broadcom's infamous raspberry )
14:39 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: But unlike the rest, it managed to pass several rounds of the alf sniff test
14:39 mircea_popescu yeah this is pretty interesting. should prolly fg the set.
14:41 asciilifeform not only sniff test, but , may as well proclaim it here : 1) 6 rockchiptrons are to be installed at pizarro 2) each subscriber gets a clean , asciilifeform-recipe gentoo image to start with 3) 128GB flash by default , upgrades negotiable , talk to ben_vulpes & mod6 4) each machine comes with full kernel src for asciilifeform's custom rockchip kernel recipe
14:41 mircea_popescu and fgs ?
14:41 asciilifeform (4) is perhaps worth expanding on : it is special 'headless' , reclaims the memory that would have been eaten by gpu; also disables keyboard/mouse/HID
14:42 mircea_popescu by now this is an epic machine, are you kidding me, all sussman would have needed to make an ai
14:42 mircea_popescu had sussman known how to make an ai in the first place.
14:42 asciilifeform FG pricing, i am leaving to the biznis genius of ben_vulpes & mod6 currently
14:43 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i hesitate to say 'epic', it suffers from slower-than-you-probably-used-to disk access , even with very spiffy usb3 flashes , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-06#1793523 see also
14:43 a111 Logged on 2018-04-06 01:44 asciilifeform: in other noose, ~143MB/s avg. reads , ~33MB/s writes, on samsung usb3 stick ( vs ~20 / 15 on sd prior )
14:43 asciilifeform but it is a quite usable, inexpensive physically-isolated gentootron.
14:43 asciilifeform with G/s nic, even.
14:44 mircea_popescu sussman never had a mb/s io machine.
14:44 asciilifeform verily
14:44 asciilifeform tho to be fair , sussman also never ran apache.
14:44 BingoBoingo Now we just need a good source for rubidium clocks
14:44 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no rule rockchips gotta run apache.
14:44 asciilifeform troo
14:45 asciilifeform BingoBoingo it can be in the next crate , if you can describe why we need one
14:46 mircea_popescu i suppose i should have used minsky instead, sussman is a) still extant and b) kinda moved away from ai in the idyllic sense towards more practical applications IE SOLD OUT!
14:47 BingoBoingo I see no need at present. I just imagine ways the board could be pimped. Since it lacks rtc clock, why not go for great rtc clock in Rockchip workstation spec.
14:47 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo dude...
14:47 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: it has a rtc , but no battery
14:47 BingoBoingo Ah
14:47 asciilifeform competing boards, some possibly better even , have one ('allwinner' )
14:48 asciilifeform in principle there's no reason why every single board needs clock, so long as owner is friends with somebody who does have clock, in same rack
14:48 mircea_popescu anyway, anyone wrote a good post mortem for the self-replicating neural network ? i mean, hal 9000 and all that bs, iue fictional retellings. but the actual story ? no interest among the science-fiction set ?
14:53 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: if it had sata option, i could recommend for 'workstation' ; presently would hesitate
14:53 asciilifeform but in principle yes, makes for a ~2003-speed workstation..
14:54 shinohai While asciilifeform is here on subj of rockchips, is this the type of tablet you referred to a few days prior? https://www.amazon.com/ASUS-C201-Chromebook-Rockchip-Lotus/dp/B01EGBAR4W
14:55 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what, specifically, means 'self replicating nn' ?
14:55 asciilifeform shinohai: loox like previous version. new one iirc was c101pa .
14:56 asciilifeform how much the chipset differs, i do not know, i have neither one currently , simply no time
14:56 asciilifeform iirc old version had an evil (i.e. non-open-driver'd) nic
14:56 shinohai ah kk, I have opportunity to purchase new equipment ... would like an arm device to gentoo
14:56 asciilifeform shinohai: try the c101pa
14:57 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you recall, the thing that got all the inept "science" press hot and bothered in the 80s, and nosnense such as hal 9000 / space odissey etc (ie, the first iteration of "lesswrong" wankery) was a demonstration by sussman & goode that "you can have artificial brains growing in the same way as real ones", ie, neural networks that algorithmically expand
14:57 asciilifeform shinohai: and in coupla days there will be a ready gentoo image you can try an' download
14:57 shinohai Found those too: https://www.amazon.com/Chromebook-C101PA-DB02-Quad-Core-Lightweight-Touchscreen/dp/B075KFFMZS
14:57 mircea_popescu i was denoting that historical event, cca 1983 iirc
14:57 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: asimov had same in '50s; not mega-modern
14:58 asciilifeform ( he had a different paint on it, but otherwise same imho )
14:58 mircea_popescu obviously, the fiction wank is just the same item cycled. but there was a. .. science-fashionabilia in the 80s.
14:58 asciilifeform shinohai: the box is readily available in shops in usa also.
14:59 shinohai I prefer mail order for stuffs, besides craigslist finds.
14:59 asciilifeform shinohai: you might need a eeprom writer ( with a set of crocodiles ) , possibly
14:59 shinohai I haz eeprom writer
14:59 asciilifeform shinohai: then you'll need only coffee.
15:00 shinohai got the Signstek TL866CS so I assume will work
15:00 asciilifeform shinohai: welcome back to the doing-things club btw
15:00 asciilifeform shinohai: any chance of bot return ?
15:00 asciilifeform shinohai: i like tl866 verymuch. yes it worx.
15:01 shinohai I dont want to bring the old bot back tbh, new one isn't finished. But will log into shell and restart for the 500th time shortly
15:01 asciilifeform ty shinohai .
15:01 shinohai shinohai plans on doing same things he always does anyway, with or without here.
15:02 asciilifeform and i will note , folx like to spit on laptopism, but it is a necessary evil, and asciilifeform for one would like to have a reasonably lappy one day that doesn't weigh 3kg and doesn't eat a 150bux battery erry 3months
15:02 mircea_popescu i have special electrics installed in cars to power laptops.
15:03 mircea_popescu we spit on laptopism for some reason we spit on motherhood : to avoid naive heyleeecxen from getting stuck in the glue trap.
15:03 ben_vulpes lobbes: didn't you have a simple process-restarter?
15:03 asciilifeform but observer, ~everybody has a whole shelf of lappies , even 'with spitting'
15:04 mircea_popescu indeed.
15:04 shinohai Don't want to use process restarter on this box ben_vulpes ... if it goes down I'd rather know why. I don't really trust atlantic anymore tbh
15:04 shinohai In fact, I was the one that recommended a solution to lobbes, re: process restarting.
15:07 ben_vulpes shinohai: why does it go down, typicallY/
15:09 shinohai I seem to have acquired a fan that likes pinging it to death or something. Got to read logs deeper
15:10 mircea_popescu but since i've mentioned good, let it be stated that "Let an ultraintelligent machine be defined as a machine that can far surpass all the intellectual activities of any man however clever. Since the design of machines is one of these intellectual activities, an ultraintelligent machine could design even better machines; there would then unquestionably be an 'intelligence explosion,'" is a self-contradictory definition, entir
15:10 mircea_popescu ely equivalent to "let an ultralarge integer be defined as that integer which is larger than all irrational numbers."
15:10 mircea_popescu no such thing can exist, on either score, and for the same reasons.
15:12 lobbes Re: process restarter, I ended up using a method trinque suggested (in logs somewhere but no time to dig): essentially the bot gets started as a child process to the parent proccess
15:13 lobbes Was simple few lines of bash iirc
15:14 shinohai ah kk.
15:16 lobbes Ah here be relevant thread >> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-21#1716536
15:16 a111 Logged on 2017-09-21 05:03 lobbes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-20#1716279 << I ended up going this route.
15:17 lobbes Archived script : http://archive.is/W6L5q
15:31 mircea_popescu !!up maximian
15:31 deedbot maximian voiced for 30 minutes.
15:31 maximian hi MP
15:31 mircea_popescu heya
15:32 maximian so I’ve been out of the loop for a long time
15:32 mircea_popescu how come ?
15:32 maximian after S.DICE, I just went into HODL mode and have been mostly enjoying the runup in BTC price
15:32 mircea_popescu trinque try yet again ?
15:33 mircea_popescu maximian aha
15:33 maximian so what happened to mpex?
15:33 mircea_popescu well, proxies went away recently ; working on getting some back for teh ppls.
15:33 maximian cool… so it’s not actually dead?
15:33 mircea_popescu nah.
15:33 maximian nice
15:34 maximian mpex.biz is the correct url?
15:34 mircea_popescu yeh
15:34 maximian k thx
15:35 mircea_popescu np.
15:35 mircea_popescu read the logs, too. a lot of better stuff than just hodling.
15:36 maximian will do
15:37 trinque mircea_popescu: still doesn't want to talk to me on either
15:37 mircea_popescu jesus fuck.
~ 19 minutes ~
15:56 douchebag hm?
16:04 mircea_popescu in more upbeat news, homemade mango-ginger gelatto with shaved 100% costa rican chocolate atop. my diet is progressing wonderfully.
16:11 douchebag !!up saturn_
16:11 deedbot saturn_ voiced for 30 minutes.
16:11 saturn_ im here to show my tits hehe
16:13 douchebag mircea_popescu is the man who handles that
16:13 saturn_ !!register http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/0qvpT/?raw=true
16:13 deedbot 8F578B57149263815191B121BE2B714B46966398 registered as saturn_.
16:15 mircea_popescu heya saturn_
16:15 saturn_ hello!!
16:15 mircea_popescu adcebee7
16:16 saturn_ thanks!
16:29 mircea_popescu and in other ancient spyked , http://trilema.com/2016/introducing-permanence/#comment-117166 lol
16:35 spyked owow, that was 2016. took me a year to /join. :\
16:36 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2017/the-strange-case-of-the-red-stapler-and-other-related-stories/ << the year in question.
16:39 spyked at some point I should write about how I stumbled upon Loper OS and got pissed off at all computing and started reading the (at the time #b-a) logs. spoiler alert: I was not in ro at the time, but stuck in "civilized" country, which made me even more furious.
16:40 mircea_popescu ah the importance of civilised countries.
16:40 mircea_popescu saturn_ you just ready ? i'm about to take off.
16:41 mircea_popescu just about*
16:41 mircea_popescu heh
16:41 mircea_popescu !!up saturn_
16:41 deedbot saturn_ voiced for 30 minutes.
16:43 spyked the more civilized (i.e. fulla overeducated shitheads, to quote zappa) the country, the greater the fury.
16:43 mircea_popescu someone should do a complete zappa colection, incidentally. he's one of the few worthy of the naggum treatment.
16:44 mircea_popescu some of his music is even not bad, also.
16:45 mircea_popescu meanwhile in fetlife lulz, "<title>503 All backends failed or unhealthy</title>"
16:47 mircea_popescu anyway ; bbl.
16:47 shinohai Ye fucked their asses all out the first 2 times I woulda have thought.
16:51 trinque mircea_popescu: ohey it works now
17:04 spyked yeah, zappa is famous among others for having written some of the "most difficult to interpret songs ever". he then started arranging for sequenced instruments (e.g. synclavier), which rendered the whole idea of "difficult to interpret" useless. e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OSAd6pC633A (late? baroque compositions arranged for synclavier)
~ 29 minutes ~
17:33 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796265 <-- hey, no stress at all, I (out of curiosity) explored the verification $thing down to the 2nd level of "rabbit hole" and found nothing there worth being scrutinized. going deeper might reveal some questions, but I'm not gonna go sharpen the machete for "crypto protocols" jungle just to get there.
17:33 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 15:38 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796216 << the whole thing is phrased as "asking questions". one can never be in a rabbit hole so deep they can't ask questions. it's not your job to make any determination, so why stress.
17:34 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-08#1794067 << ave1 your FG went out (again!) today .
17:34 a111 Logged on 2018-04-08 16:20 ave1: asciilifeform: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Chyyv/?raw=true, updated address
17:36 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796272 <-- I'ma examine this cockroach. but tbh, it may be that it's just difficult to be constructive in a http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796086 way. for all I know, the thing could be modellable in a simpler way, only they never considered this. imho serious (yet not at all helpful) question if they ever tune in.
17:36 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 15:47 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796242 << this is a problem of how you phrase your questions. see, the fundamental, and apparently enduring, cockroach here is that you have an "in-control" mental model you won't diverge from, and it is disabling for your mental process in the following way : you judge "you can't contribute" arbitrarily, and damagingly, in the exact sense contemplated in http://trilema.com/2014/a-conceit-or
17:36 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 04:43 mircea_popescu: and do me a favour -- not in this lambasting tone!
17:39 douchebag hey trinque
17:40 douchebag how much data can be storn in QR codes?
17:40 spyked http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796332 <-- but one can, by reading the orig. paper, decompose it into windowses that then can be replaced, e.g. http://trilema.com/2016/the-necessary-prerequisite-for-any-change-to-the-bitcoin-protocol/ . granted, it took me years to peel off the layers of understanding and I'm still not quite there yet, but this is completely different from $formal_verification_devoid_of_meaning.
17:40 a111 Logged on 2018-04-11 16:28 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-11#1796253 << if only. bitcoin would fail the exact same tests today. it's built out of windows basically.
17:41 trinque douchebag: I forget the actual limit, but can always break it up into multiple
17:41 asciilifeform spyked: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-01#1664352 << thread
17:41 a111 Logged on 2017-06-01 18:14 asciilifeform: a business card printed on a very spartan (100 'dpi' ) press , gives what, 350 x 200 b&w pixels ;
17:41 trinque human-text-sized things
17:41 asciilifeform and somewhere after that i posted a demo
17:44 asciilifeform err, douchebag ^
17:44 asciilifeform >>> http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-09#1734767
17:44 a111 Logged on 2017-11-09 00:11 asciilifeform: incidentally, quick experiment gives http://www.loper-os.org/pub/512_letter_a.png
17:45 asciilifeform ^ 4096bit, reads with standard blastergun
17:49 trinque douchebag: if you're wondering for the girls, pubkey ass tattoo is totally feasible
17:49 douchebag hahaha
~ 21 minutes ~
18:11 asciilifeform trinque, douchebag : not nearly as permanent as proper tattoo , but low-tech enuff and good for year or 2 -- print a negative and expose under one of those uv lamps that idiots 'suntan' under
18:11 asciilifeform ( or even actual sunlight. print in sunscreen cream. then expose.. )
~ 16 minutes ~
18:28 douchebag I know a couple tattoo artists
18:29 douchebag ill tattoo a QR code on my ass if a BTC reward is involved + tattoo costs
~ 26 minutes ~
18:55 douchebag !!up saturn_
18:55 deedbot saturn_ voiced for 30 minutes.
18:55 saturn_ heyyyyyyyy
18:56 saturn_ sorry about the wait!
18:56 saturn_ roomates were bothering me!
18:56 saturn_ https://i.imgur.com/EOa4XG6.jpg
18:57 douchebag mircea_popescu: ^
18:58 douchebag 2015 +mircea_popescu β”‚ heya saturn_ β”‚ _whitelogger
18:58 douchebag 2015 +saturn_ β”‚ hello!! β”‚ adlai
18:58 douchebag 2015 +mircea_popescu β”‚ adcebee7 β”‚ candi_lustt
18:58 douchebag 2016 +saturn_ β”‚ thanks!
18:59 trinque pastefail.
19:00 douchebag yeah i know
19:00 douchebag my client is weird when it comes to that
19:03 trinque iirc one time I pasted an e-mail to my dad in here
19:03 douchebag lol
~ 2 hours 21 minutes ~
21:25 mircea_popescu lol
21:26 mircea_popescu !!pay saturn_ 0.02
21:26 deedbot Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/WYXlQ/?raw=true
21:29 mircea_popescu trinque o excellent news. so you all ok on that score ?
21:31 mircea_popescu spyked but why would it be difficult in that way ?
↖
21:32 mircea_popescu douchebag qr code it's not one thing, it has like 30 different versions. there's tiny 21 module v1 to > 150 x 150 modules later. a mid sized item is about 3-400 bits.
21:36 mircea_popescu !!up saturn_
21:37 deedbot saturn_ voiced for 30 minutes.
21:48 hanbot on the mp-wp newsfront, i've a pressed genesis via phf's lastest leftwards/keccak vtools. am waiting on pizarro folks to get apache & mod_rewrite going so i can test it and see to the initial patches it'll need.
↖
~ 44 minutes ~
22:33 trinque mircea_popescu: sure am, oughta be able to get things squared shortly, couple days
22:36 mircea_popescu nice. ty.
22:37 ckang hey mircea_popescu I had a talk to zx2c4 to try and smooth things over a bit
22:37 mircea_popescu anything good ?
22:38 ckang his worry is that he thinks he will feel indebted to trilema
22:38 ckang Like he will owe something
↖
22:38 ckang if that makes sense?
22:39 mircea_popescu bit weird.
22:39 ckang and he wasnt sure what #trilema is about but saw the 'terrorist' thing in the topic
22:39 ckang and got spooked
22:39 mircea_popescu lol.
22:39 ckang really
22:39 mircea_popescu oh, btw, whatever happened to that trish chick ? did she ever find me my cartoon artist ???
22:40 ckang ill look for her tonight shes normally on late during the week
22:40 asciilifeform attn folx : zoolag node going down for scheduled maintenance , for next ~12h
22:42 trinque mircea_popescu: gpg IP settings pls?
22:42 ckang mircea_popescu: hes just worried about his nick being associated with a group that calls themselves a terrorist organization, I suggested that he maybe create an alt nick for the purpose of the discussion and also told him it would be a great review of the project since you all know a good bit about the stuff
22:42 ckang but overall seems like a nice guy
22:42 mircea_popescu trinque come again ?
22:43 mircea_popescu ckang i got the same impression.
22:43 trinque what network settings does this thing need?
22:43 mircea_popescu anyway, he can't really "create an alt nick", what, i'm going to give thousands of dollars to random people ?
22:43 ckang yea, need to figure that one out still.
22:44 mod6 lol, i didn't even see that the topic changed.
22:44 mircea_popescu trinque i have nfi lmao.
22:44 ckang i just want to see this happen, think it would be good for his stuff from a codebase perspective to have other smart eyes looking over the implementation
22:45 mircea_popescu mod6 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-05#1793161 lol
22:45 a111 Logged on 2018-04-05 12:29 mircea_popescu: ^ rfc.
22:45 trinque ftr being indebted to trilema is good for you
22:45 mircea_popescu ckang from experience it's a ticket to fame, but anyways.
22:46 ckang well, i can understand his point though. theres a lot of 'proper' types on freenode
22:46 mod6 mircea_popescu: nice
22:46 ckang and it does say 'terrorist organization' right when you join ;p
22:46 trinque imagine the honesty. when you get to the state dept, it says state dept.
22:46 mircea_popescu at least this one admits it. usg still trying to claim it's a legitimate state.
22:46 mod6 during that little bit of discussion, i think i was homed in on : http://btcbase.org/log/2018-04-05#1793159
22:46 a111 Logged on 2018-04-05 04:18 mircea_popescu: lol so in the end ns1/ns2.qntra.net are the pizarro nameservers ?
22:49 ckang anyways it was a good discussion i will follow up with him tomorrow, however removing that phrase from the topic might go a long way in smoothing things over a bit
22:50 mircea_popescu that'd be the day.
22:51 asciilifeform lol reminds me of the d00d who wanted to rename FUCKGOATS
22:51 ckang but i get you too, dont compromise your beliefs to appease 1 person.
22:51 mod6 TMSR is the rock that the water breaks upon, not the other way around.
22:52 ckang he was looking for sponsors it sounded like though as he wants to focus on it full time
22:54 ckang cant say i blame him, ive had hobbies turn in to 2nd jobs and it can get pretty stressful
22:54 mircea_popescu indeed.
22:55 mircea_popescu famously, torvalds, also.
22:57 ckang torvalds is a pretty funny guy, some of his rants are great reads
~ 49 minutes ~
23:46 ckang !!up sashahsas
23:46 deedbot sashahsas voiced for 30 minutes.
23:46 ckang hey sorry didnt see you come in
23:53 sashahsas Hi
23:53 sashahsas At work but have some time to do it if you aren't busy
23:54 ckang you want to talk to mircea_popescu
23:59 sashahsas πŸ˜„
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