#trilema | 2018-01-18

pest - 1d 23h
trilema - 1026d

Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2018-01-17 | 2018-01-19 → ↓

00:01	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771743 << no such wonder exists.
00:01	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 15:50 apeloyee: well, ideally it would have a "No_Out_Arguments_Aliasing" restriction which would insert runtime checks
00:14	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771820 << one for each suspenders.
00:14	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 17:42 asciilifeform: possibly there ought to be not 1 but... 4 null cells
00:17	mircea_popescu	ima have to finish this megalog tomorro, too exhausted.
00:17	asciilifeform	goodnight mircea_popescu
00:18	*	asciilifeform also to bed.
		~ 6 hours 2 minutes ~
06:20	ave1	http://ave1.org/2018/building-gnat-on-musl-now-with-a-signature/ script to build GNAT, now with signature and the result can compile ch1
		~ 3 hours 30 minutes ~
09:50	asciilifeform	ave1: neat
09:54	shinohai	http://archive.is/n3JWg <<< Should just go ahead and make Barry Shillbert an official member of the Trump admin.
09:57	asciilifeform	'The United States federal government has paid approximately half a million dollars to a private corporation to help various agencies conduct surveillance on the Bitcoin blockchain' << pretty lulzy, that's, e.g., 3 janitors, 2 clerks, 1 intern, for 1yr
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09:57	asciilifeform	and 'conduct surveillance' on publicly broadcast item, pretty rich.
09:58	asciilifeform	oldscam, however, is old:
09:58	asciilifeform	!#s noblis
09:58	a111	13 results for "noblis", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=noblis
09:58	shinohai	hah yeah, forgot about that.
10:00	asciilifeform	'People who wish to avoid financial surveillance should consider using privacy-centric cryptocurrencies with opaque blockchains, such as Monero' << lol, oblig money shot saved for end
10:00	*	asciilifeform had nfi that the monerists were still around
10:01	asciilifeform	didn't that nonsense implode..? or was that z-somethingorother.
10:01	*	asciilifeform has the 2 or 3 different 'z-' shitcoins perma-symlinked in head
10:02	shinohai	"A promise from the SCAM coin team: We won't sleep until SCAM coin has been successfully listed on at least one shitty exchange." <<< Truth in advertising now I guess.
10:02	shinohai	(New ICO token)
		~ 1 hours 19 minutes ~
11:22	mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes dja happen to have a link to the original case of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-18#1569630 ? iirc you reported it, maybe 2014s
11:22	a111	Logged on 2016-11-18 15:15 mircea_popescu: gotta kyc in case the fat tard over at the us park administration gets tired of asking for special booth at burning man and wants to peruse pics of subtards licking fish through a screen of milk, gotta have the pics ready for him!!11
11:30	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2015-06-28#1180271 possibly
11:30	a111	Logged on 2015-06-28 07:17 punkman: http://www.rgj.com/longform/news/2015/06/26/blm-wants-vip-compound-burning-man/29318493/
		~ 29 minutes ~
12:00	BingoBoingo	!~ticker --market all
12:01	jhvh1	BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 11800.0, vol: 28608.75009947 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 11487.0, vol: 103165.57225643 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 11815.0, vol: 9783.20905574 \| Volume-weighted last average: 11572.9257097
		~ 24 minutes ~
12:25	deedbot	http://trilema.com/2018/how-to-satisfyingly-have-sex-with-a-girl-under-12/ << Trilema - How to satisfyingly have sex with a girl under 12
12:26	*	mircea_popescu rests easy in the knowledge he's penned the most outrageous item ever written in english, by such a margin as to permanently defy competition
12:27	*	ben_vulpes tips hat
12:28	asciilifeform	funnily enuff this is maybe the 5th or 6th trilema piece in a row that asciilifeform finished eating just prior to deedbot displaying
12:28	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you know what, i think that may be it.
12:28	asciilifeform	and it is pretty great
12:29	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform iirc rss delay is 15mins
12:30	shinohai	I wonder how long it would stay up if I posted it to r/TwoXChromosomes
12:31	mircea_popescu	reddit is very VERY butthurt at http://trilema.com/2014/spamming-reddit-an-experiment/ has trilema on some kind of master kill list.
12:31	mircea_popescu	as if.
12:34	asciilifeform	possibly gold medal trololol against angloroaches.
12:34	asciilifeform	( in re the latest article )
12:36	shinohai	In which mircea_popescu demonstrates the `Loli-pop`
12:36	mircea_popescu	i see it takes teh forum 5 minutes to figure out the easter egg in there...
12:44	*	BingoBoingo baking blog post.
12:46	mircea_popescu	so is diana_coman ; and earlier ave1 ! truly spectacular republica output these days!
12:48	diana_coman	taking of baking, these eucrypt blog posts feel like cozonaci : always sort of growing more than I expect them, no matter what adjustment to expectations previous batch caused
12:48	diana_coman	ugh, talking*
12:51	mircea_popescu	ahahaha word.
		~ 18 minutes ~
13:09	deedbot	http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/01/18/and-the-residency-process-has-started/ << Bingo Blog - And The Residency Process Has Started
13:09	asciilifeform	in other noose, http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2146&cpage=1#comment-18757
13:11	*	BingoBoingo baking next post about the very sad hombre de Inglaterra
13:15	asciilifeform	oh hey congrats BingoBoingo
13:24	ben_vulpes	http://archive.is/Eei43 << expensive afternoon for the cops
13:24	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: It's just a step
13:24	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo did you ever publish the datacenter price details ?
13:25	BingoBoingo	I don't recall if I did, will check and publish if not
13:25	BingoBoingo	Oh, sad Englishman has to wait
13:32	BingoBoingo	http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/11/16/tbi-mid-november-update/ << Yeah, there's more numbers now.
13:34	BingoBoingo	baking
13:45	shinohai	BingoBoingo: You think that 'terp of yours can get us in on the Venezuelan Gov't ICO ? xD
13:46	BingoBoingo	They leave Venezuala for reasons
13:47	shinohai	ikr
13:47	*	trinque has venezuelans living directly below. there was a long battle over whether THOOM THOOM THOOM was music
13:47	trinque	it is not.
13:48	deedbot	http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/01/18/datacenter-costs/ << Bingo Blog - Datacenter Costs
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13:48	BingoBoingo	^ For everyone.
13:48	shinohai	trinque: I had the same issue with Mexicans. A little death metal solved it.
13:48	BingoBoingo	trinque: Are you familiar with Regaeton?
13:49	BingoBoingo	Or however the Brasileros spell it
13:51	trinque	not familiar, only heard blaring out of lowriders now and then
13:57	BingoBoingo	It's the default Brasilero music
13:59	asciilifeform	unrelatedly , asciilifeform recently found out that you can still buy old-style SLC ('single layer') ssd. 100,000+ write cycle endurance instead of the ubiquitous MLC ('multi layer') ~10,000 . for approx 8x the cost. has, supposedly, considerably faster writes, also.
		~ 23 minutes ~
14:22	deedbot	http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/01/18/the-sad-man-from-england/ << Bingo Blog - The Sad Man From England
14:22	BingoBoingo	^ and asciilifeform before you ask, even if he is a spy he can't effectively because the girl he can't talk too is too smitten.
14:23	BingoBoingo	Poor girl is just torturing herself waiting for him to make a move.
14:23	asciilifeform	lol dafuq to do in uruguay with 0 spanish
14:24	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Learn spanish, hang out with Brasileros who don't speak spanish
14:25	BingoBoingo	Apparently one can have fun in Punta Del Este with zero spanish provided they have a Trump budget, but it is a serious WTFism.
14:26	shinohai	Maybe he is still searching for an app for that!
14:26	asciilifeform	even on pnoje there are language gamez etc
14:26	BingoBoingo	And the Brasileros without spanish can usually get by on the latin language mutual intelligibity deal
14:30	BingoBoingo	And there's an old USian chasing 80 degree temps for his arthritis and going to AA meetings that at least made an effort at memorizing phrases before he fucked off to Buenos Aires
14:30	BingoBoingo	By all appearances though the Englishman is functionally taking his vacation on Facebook.
		~ 16 minutes ~
14:47	deedbot	http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/01/18/eucrypt-chapter-6-keccak-transformations/ << Ossasepia - EuCrypt Chapter 6: Keccak Transformations
14:47	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771854 << will be hard to keep at bay.
14:47	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 18:07 asciilifeform: however this introduces explicit pointerism. ( though, i will add, NOT pointer-arithmetism )
14:47	mircea_popescu	phf check it out, keccak published.
14:48	asciilifeform	oh hey hey hey lbj
14:48	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: why hard ?
14:48	mircea_popescu	stack as linked list has a notion of next item on stack, yes ?
14:49	asciilifeform	right. but... i'ma let mircea_popescu eat rest of the thread
14:49	*	mircea_popescu eats then
14:49	mircea_popescu	ah you don't actually mean to use pointers, just a lisp-style memory emulator for the stack itself
14:50	asciilifeform	( spoiler : you can trivially implement linked list without -- properly speaking -- pointers, but with integers, this also came up in the earlier 'lisp in ada' thread )
14:50	asciilifeform	aha.
14:50	mircea_popescu	whereby the jump is in the item pointed to, not in the mechanism of pointing
14:50	asciilifeform	so long as you don't use the heap, you more or less can dispense with traditional pointers.
14:51	mircea_popescu	once you use "traditional" pointers, your "stack" is a heap.
14:51	asciilifeform	( the ada passing by reference semantics give you almost anything that c programmers typically want from pointerism )
14:51	asciilifeform	ada working in normal mode typically won't even let you take a pointer of an object on the stack.
14:52	asciilifeform	( you have to satisfy the compiler that it has exactly same 'life' as the item pointed-to. and in practice this is quite difficult. )
14:52	asciilifeform	currently ffa has 0 pointerism.
14:54	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771869 << thinking about this, it seems that both a) a re-implementation of the lisp memory model is unavoidable for any serious purpose and b) the place where the rewrite will start is the stack ; are true.
14:54	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 18:27 asciilifeform: speaking of which, could even have a stackmachine with circular ring for a stack.
14:54	asciilifeform	it's next on asciilifeform's conveyor after ffa. ( this should not discourage anybody else from writing adatronic lisps of whatever type, however )
14:55	mircea_popescu	note how ffa ends up satisfying the greenspun rule, through the predictable entry point.
14:55	asciilifeform	it already lives in the forth hole, lol
14:55	mircea_popescu	why not actually do it then, and first construct an ada circular ring lisp-memory stack first ?
14:56	asciilifeform	( i considered lispism, rejected for the given application strictly on account of moving-parts-count , 'p' gotta have parachute-level simplicity )
14:56	mircea_popescu	seems your stack wants to meld into that anyway.
14:56	asciilifeform	it's a variant. not currently convinced that it is The Right Thing.
14:57	mircea_popescu	so write it as a side point and see.
14:57	asciilifeform	aha, it's on the side-point list.
14:57	mircea_popescu	some possible things need to be made before it can be decided.
14:57	asciilifeform	i got a megatonne of those . ( e.g. unrolled comba )
14:57	mircea_popescu	seems one of the most promising.
15:00	phf	aye, i'll marry keccak to vdiff today or tomorrow to get a poc out.
15:01	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771889 << that's ok, pipeline permablown anyway.
15:01	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 18:54 asciilifeform: from pipeline-blowing pov -- expensive.
15:01	diana_coman	phf, those are the keccak transformations; do you need the actual sponge?
15:01	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: apparently not. hence why unrolled comba was iirc 2x+ speedup
15:02	asciilifeform	(unrolling doesn't do anything useful on archs with no pipeline)
15:02	mircea_popescu	diana_coman ah, is it a two part item then ?
15:02	diana_coman	mircea_popescu, yes, all that there is still only... first part
15:02	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform don't tell me you didn't take your volkskomputi to the commissariat for the mandatory urine injections or what was it.
15:02	diana_coman	padding, bitstream, sponge, oaep to follow; currently still in the works
15:03	mircea_popescu	a damn, seems i shot too quickly. sorry phf
15:03	*	mircea_popescu is overexcitable
15:03	phf	never mind then! i gotta figure out how to do the whole "file moved part" anyway, and i don't need a hashing function yet. i'm using a sha512 implementation from busybox
15:03	diana_coman	they will be grouped into as few chapters as possible of course
15:03	asciilifeform	but but, does spreading work yet!11
15:03	mircea_popescu	diana_coman cool deal then.
15:05	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771903 << because didn't seriously think of the particular problem, which happens with prototypes.
15:05	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 19:32 asciilifeform: apeloyee: the 'liable to change' thing was very much NOT part of my orig design for v.
15:06	asciilifeform	worse, was thinking of very different ( and probably unsolvable ) problem ( 'how to give arbitrarily small pieces of code, a perma-history' )
15:06	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771907 << v is not at all pretending they are ; that's accidental misconstruction.
15:06	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 19:34 apeloyee: files are NOT INDEPENDENT. despite CVS and v pretending they are. this is a problem. you could have required some form of cryptographic commitment to either the tree state or even the antedecent patches themselves, but didn't
15:07	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform quite evident ; but yes, i believe wrong problem to solve. "oh lord, how could bits of code have an identity ?" "why ?" "so they could be my girflriends" "Come on!"
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15:08	mircea_popescu	the strong statement here is that the ~only~ possible identity bits of code have is based on ~personal memory~. to revisit the oft used bubblesort example -- any particular implementation of bubblesort IS bubblesort because ~you~ recognize it as such and for ~no other reason~, factual ~or possible~. consequently fits in head as the basis of code identity.
15:09	asciilifeform	in what other way does anything fit-in-head ?
15:09	mircea_popescu	and this identity is also fluent, because different things are the same thing, such as no further than earlier the "you really want a lisp stack". this recognition is only there because of personal knowledge, and absent otherwise.
15:10	mircea_popescu	you could not have written such a tagging mechanism as it'd have permitted a machine to recognize the substance of what you were saying when discussing "pointers" which weren't.
15:11	mircea_popescu	and all this goes right into that older thread of ambiguity, orthogonality and language -- you can never make a language that's orthogonal and ~useful~ in the natural sense. let alone "that anyone'd want to use".
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15:12	mircea_popescu	(but since we're on it -- the enduring interest in obfuscated-c is strictly this, "let us try and write a novel in orthogonal language ; this should be done in c because it's very much not orthogonal". became a self-recursing joke, that the practitioners don't even properly understand, just sorta-feel. BECAUSE they talk about it in natural languages.)
15:18	mircea_popescu	incidentally asciilifeform is apeloyee actually http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aascii+brother ?
15:20	phf	that would be quite a twist
15:20	asciilifeform	nope
15:20	mircea_popescu	imagine, there's two of these out there!
15:21	shinohai	asciilifeform would construct a death-ray and obliterate him from afar.
15:21	mircea_popescu	he would ?
15:22	phf	ascii vs brother doesn't strike me as that kind of relationship. more like "you have to learn much little one, and i have N years on you"
15:22	mircea_popescu	but that's only one pov.
15:22	mircea_popescu	inb4 apeloyee comes in, goes "oh, but actually... yes", alf is forever floored.
15:23	asciilifeform	lol
15:23	mircea_popescu	bread and butter of cheap fiction, "you don't know who your brother is"
15:23	asciilifeform	i thought it was typically fathers
15:23	asciilifeform	or is that just hollywoods
15:23	mircea_popescu	hm.
15:27	BingoBoingo	<asciilifeform> or is that just hollywoods << The Greeks did it!
15:27	mircea_popescu	i can't think of major examples outside of the star wars thing (coulkdn't think of that either until pointed out). commedia is mostly brothers.
15:28	phf	or lovers, like what is it, the two gentlemen of verona
15:28	*	asciilifeform brb,meat
15:29	*	mircea_popescu doesn't think greek tragedy is party to this discussion, but is overwhelmed by explaining why.
15:30	phf	or midsummer night's dream
15:30	mircea_popescu	if anyone is wondering, alf lives in a sausage plant. there's lots of meat.
15:31	phf	i half expect it to be some kind of kafka narrative, where, when not engaged with tmsr business, alf actually does some macabre butcher work involving big meaty hands and slabs
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15:31	shinohai	Heh, in my my mind I always imagined asciilifeform living in abattoir because of the "brb, meats"
15:32	mod6	<+mircea_popescu> if anyone is wondering, alf lives in a sausage plant. there's lots of meat. << been wondering if I should move in with him, or take bets on when he gets scurvy
15:33	shinohai	lol
15:33	BingoBoingo	From the WaPo: "Six buses operated by Silicon Valley tech companies to shuttle employees to their offices have been attacked on the highway over the past week. The California Highway Patrol reports that four Apple and one Google bus had their windows shattered on Tuesday by unidentified projectiles"
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15:34	shinohai	!!rate mats 3 #trilema - Never has let me go into battle with an empty war-chest.
15:34	deedbot	Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ji5c9/?raw=true
15:40	mod6	mircea_popescu: also, fwiw, we might need to adjust our "NO '--- ' or '+++ ' to begin a line in a vpatch to "NO '-- ' or '++ '". There was a vpatch in development where my vtron choked on a line being added into a source file that began with '++', and with the diff '+', became '+++'. My vtron correctly choked here. But maybe a bit of an adjustment to the rule?
15:40	shinohai	!!v 2F07483E10CD3A025FAEE4979B80C922944C4199D4CA0C678A8CCF1BD47DF7FC
15:40	deedbot	shinohai updated rating of mats from 2 to 3 << #trilema - Never has let me go into battle with an empty war-chest.
15:40	*	shinohai tips hat to mats
15:40	mircea_popescu	mod6 the magic string diff uses is "+++ " ie three plusses AND A SPACE
15:41	mod6	yah, that's actually what it added up to: "+++ ", but no diff info / hash after it.
15:41	mircea_popescu	hm.
15:42	mircea_popescu	well, this is the curse of magic words.
15:42	mod6	yah, food for thought here maybe.
15:42	mircea_popescu	which line was it ?
15:43	mod6	http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/ZvDPR/?raw=true << diana_coman has all the details.
15:44	mircea_popescu	ah
15:44	mircea_popescu	yeah, looks like a killer.
15:44	mircea_popescu	sadly, until phf's improved diff hits the deck there's nothing we can do here.
15:46	mod6	nod sounds good.
15:46	mod6	Thanks!
15:47	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771920 << quite rly ; the south american south is remarkably peaceful, nobody needs (or wants) them for much.
15:47	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 19:43 asciilifeform: fenómenos que "no tiene antecedentes" en el país << orly?
15:47	mircea_popescu	pais is uruguay not you know, brazil.
15:51	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771939 << this is quite it, for half of the problem ; for the other half -- ANYTHING is independent if you make it so, just put it in your genesis.
15:51	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 19:55 asciilifeform: iirc mircea_popescu's argument was that it is wrong to say that they could ~ever~ be properly independent. and that if they could be shown to be independent, they ought to be separate v-trees.
15:53	mircea_popescu	nothing prevents you from saying "this is the genesis of apeloyee's fantastical funicular, it consists of a cog i stole from alf's exceptional exsudator, some other bits i wrote myself and various parts i forgot where i stole" ; but something QUITE fundamental prevents you from writing down "include #fucksticks" and to have a helpful paperclip pop out of nowhere in your emacs guts and declare "this so far looks like you're pu
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15:53	mircea_popescu	lling in stallman's deplorable dropsy".
15:53	mircea_popescu	because it'd need guile to do and guile is shit. if for no other reason. comprende ?
15:54	mircea_popescu	in other words, the only maker of independence in the realm of thought is the hand of man, and this can't be fixed.
15:56	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771941 << it means the bar for what may be acceptable primitives is slightly lower than before ; this is not necessarily avoidable though, the advantage of having alphabet starts around having twenty or so letters only ; fifty letter "alphabet" is not much better than 5000 hieroglyphery.
15:56	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 19:56 asciilifeform: however it DOES mean even ~more~ work for folx using v, than ever before. and not less.
15:58	mircea_popescu	consider concretely the case of eucrypt's keccak. diana_coman is writing it as a direct derivation off genesis, meaning on extant v impls if one wanted to import it they could import JUST it, without the rest of eucrypt (it'll be pulled in later through the usual procedure in eucrypt itself). superficially this may seem like it encourages phf to go "o i know, i'll just link keccak patch into my codebase rather than regring (i
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15:58	mircea_popescu	e, copy/paste) it".
15:58	mircea_popescu	the problem is that later on, eucrypt's smg_keccak will be pulled into the main to be used for purposes ; if EVEN LATER it gets a patch, phf will then not actually have a way to seamlessly "get just the patch", he will have to regrind at that time anyway.
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15:59	mircea_popescu	ie, this "independent parts in an automatic fashion" is a hope impossible in practice. the only way he can have it is if HE reads it, as it is found wherever it is found (eucrypt as it happens here), and then HE puts it in, as a regrind, ie, yes, "de novo" item.
16:02	mircea_popescu	which is why the original "do not link across v trees"
		~ 54 minutes ~
16:57	diana_coman	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772485 <- after things are put together by human hand it takes human hand to take them apart, yes, unsurprising; point is it's enough to choose and pick out of the desired vpatch what is relevant (i.e. for keccak in this example) and that's as far as it goes
16:57	a111	Logged on 2018-01-18 20:58 mircea_popescu: the problem is that later on, eucrypt's smg_keccak will be pulled into the main to be used for purposes ; if EVEN LATER it gets a patch, phf will then not actually have a way to seamlessly "get just the patch", he will have to regrind at that time anyway.
16:57	mircea_popescu	diana_coman wgat "it" is here discussed ?
16:58	diana_coman	in the "it takes human hand"? the thing put together needs taken apart of similar nature
17:00	mircea_popescu	point is it's enough to choose <
17:01	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772449 << normally 'meatspace' but i like phf's picture.
17:01	a111	Logged on 2018-01-18 20:31 phf: i half expect it to be some kind of kafka narrative, where, when not engaged with tmsr business, alf actually does some macabre butcher work involving big meaty hands and slabs
17:01	asciilifeform	( and it ain't too far from the troof... )
17:02	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772453 << this has been a regular thing since at least '14
17:02	a111	Logged on 2018-01-18 20:33 BingoBoingo: From the WaPo: "Six buses operated by Silicon Valley tech companies to shuttle employees to their offices have been attacked on the highway over the past week. The California Highway Patrol reports that four Apple and one Google bus had their windows shattered on Tuesday by unidentified projectiles"
17:03	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772477 << in ideal vtron, the 'and i stole x from a, y from b...' is protocolic, rather than promisetronic. i.e. abolition of eyeball-powered diff.
17:03	a111	Logged on 2018-01-18 20:53 mircea_popescu: nothing prevents you from saying "this is the genesis of apeloyee's fantastical funicular, it consists of a cog i stole from alf's exceptional exsudator, some other bits i wrote myself and various parts i forgot where i stole" ; but something QUITE fundamental prevents you from writing down "include #fucksticks" and to have a helpful paperclip pop out of nowhere in your emacs guts and declare "this so far looks like you're pu
17:04	asciilifeform	eyeball-powered diff, when there is a mechanical one, is nuttery
17:04	diana_coman	I always read asciilifeform's "meat" along the lines of "call of the annoying reality of existence in human form"
17:04	asciilifeform	diana_coman: this is correct picture.
17:06	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform there can't be such a wonderous protocol. in no small part because the PRINCIPAL FUNCTION of the human hand is http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-10#1768461
17:06	a111	Logged on 2018-01-10 16:41 hanbot: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-10#1768160 << haha well this answers http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-09#1767425 then. 0 useful.
17:06	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772483 << it's still annoying that , if i import it, and then years later query 'origin' of something, it only can trace back to my own genesis. and not to birth.
17:06	a111	Logged on 2018-01-18 20:58 mircea_popescu: consider concretely the case of eucrypt's keccak. diana_coman is writing it as a direct derivation off genesis, meaning on extant v impls if one wanted to import it they could import JUST it, without the rest of eucrypt (it'll be pulled in later through the usual procedure in eucrypt itself). superficially this may seem like it encourages phf to go "o i know, i'll just link keccak patch into my codebase rather than regring (i
17:06	mircea_popescu	diana_coman obviously ; but the trick is that "meat" also means dick.
17:07	asciilifeform	the only organ made of meat!11
17:07	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform there is no such birth. all words are is empty coin, long bereft of any original gold, all that's left is the congeal spit of successive generations. thesis is in some trilema somwwhere
17:07	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: there is no way to weasel out of the fact that the info is available, but simply ignored by ineptly made vtron.
17:08	diana_coman	mircea_popescu, everything also means dick or cunt, depending on pov
17:08	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform show me this.
17:08	asciilifeform	will show, after tea , brb
17:09	diana_coman	see, there is also tea which is pointedly not meat!!
		↖
17:09	mircea_popescu	that's when he meditates over the leaves.
17:23	asciilifeform	lol
17:26	asciilifeform	re earlier item -- if i want to demonstrate that 'alf's exceptional exsudator' consists of diana_coman's magic prime number maker, all 100,000 ln of it verbatim, plus 5 ln of asciilifeform's , this is now a proposition that has to be proven manually. whereas theoretically it is a mechanically resolvable q.
17:26	asciilifeform	and therefore ought to be resolvable mechanically as part of ordinary v operation.
17:38	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772514 >> oblig >> http://pbfcomics.com/comics/the-golden-ticket
17:38	a111	Logged on 2018-01-18 22:09 diana_coman: see, there is also tea which is pointedly not meat!!
17:39	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform there is no such "ghost of moses in the letters".
17:39	mircea_popescu	the only one who can decide that two texts are the same text is one versed in the text. that's why they even needed fucking monks in the first place.
17:39	asciilifeform	can proclaim 'there is not' all you like. my copy of diff still works.
17:39	mircea_popescu	in the same sense your copy of patent medicine still works.
17:39	mircea_popescu	yes -- it does work, in the way such works work.
17:40	mircea_popescu	then you bite the subtle bugs resulting from subtle manipulations of state at the outskirts, which is what nsa rats live off of.
17:40	asciilifeform	if 2 strings are bitwise-identical -- they are the same. if mircea_popescu in his own house insists that trained gurlz with magnifying glasses compare them, before he will consider them to be same, that is his biznis
17:40	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: nope. you find the subtle-manipulators and string'em up.
17:40	mircea_popescu	there is no such thing. because, http://trilema.com/2014/pro-idiotas-which-obviously-means-people-who-have-ideas-ie-idiots/
17:41	mircea_popescu	two bitwise-identical strings are not thereby the same thing.
17:41	asciilifeform	and nomoar 'subtle'-anythings at the edges.
17:41	mircea_popescu	if i say it -- it's a thing. if not.. hurr.
17:42	asciilifeform	afaik the 'idiot comes up with worthwhile item by accident' is a wholly imaginary problem. never seems to actually happen.
17:42	trinque	ahembitcoinahem
17:43	asciilifeform	trinque: entirely conceivable that it was an edison-like production
17:43	asciilifeform	( the 1 item d00d actually came up with, phonograph, was made by hired hands. the man could not machine to save his life )
17:44	asciilifeform	the 'bitcoin by lone idiot' model cannot be ruled out , but nothing requires us to eat it by default.
17:45	mircea_popescu	but this happens all the fucking time right here, too! take the... well i can't fucking find it now, but there's a line in the log where phf goes "hey, your trying to do the mp rant comes out short, you;'re not mp". why the fuck not! had all the bits!!1
17:46	mircea_popescu	it happens A LOT more often than you count.
17:46	asciilifeform	evidently not-all, neh
17:46	mircea_popescu	all is an undefined symbol here.
17:50	asciilifeform	i'ma approach from different angle : mircea_popescu , what do you think is the advantage of v over mere pile of signed tars ?
17:51	asciilifeform	the only thing it's got, is the deltas. and i can't see why they shouldn't 'go back to moses' if this is physically possible.
17:53	asciilifeform	at the same time i dun think that i actually disagree with mircea_popescu re the granularity. we don't have the tech to make granularity 'at procedure level' work.
17:57	asciilifeform	i'd like to revisit upstack , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772421 << this is somewhat of a misconception. asciilifeform did not salivate over a 'programmer's paradise' when wrote v. on the contrary. v , as he pictured it, is a weapon of rodenticidal war. specifically to ferret out and neutralize not only the compromised people, but the politically unreliable and the dubious of whatever type. hence the focus on attribution, and
17:57	a111	Logged on 2018-01-18 20:07 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform quite evident ; but yes, i believe wrong problem to solve. "oh lord, how could bits of code have an identity ?" "why ?" "so they could be my girflriends" "Come on!"
17:57	asciilifeform	the desire to abolish cutandpasteism.
17:58	asciilifeform	hence design decisions like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771908 . the expectation is that the dubious people who 'live on the edges', are GONE.
17:58	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 19:35 asciilifeform: apeloyee: see the quite 'flammable' log from that thread. i put the burden of correct operation ~100% on the human operator.
17:58	asciilifeform	and anybody found 'edging' is held to answer.
17:59	asciilifeform	cutandpasteism makes muddled authorship socially acceptable, and this in fact is what rats feed on.
18:05	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform for one thing, v is a structured pile of signed tars.
18:05	asciilifeform	may as well also say 'of bytes' lol
18:06	mircea_popescu	of words.
18:06	asciilifeform	it ain't the sum of the parts.
18:06	mircea_popescu	no text is the "Sum" of its parts in any rigurously definition of sum.
18:06	asciilifeform	dunno, redditola comes close
18:06	mircea_popescu	note that you specifically want ~sources~ not binaries. why ?
18:06	asciilifeform	deltas.
18:07	asciilifeform	~minimal~ deltas.
18:07	mircea_popescu	"oh, more readable". this is bs, hence all your comments about "disasm" throughout up to today.
18:07	asciilifeform	disasms are actually a bitch to diff.
18:07	asciilifeform	even when they differ by 1bit.
18:07	mircea_popescu	the only true knowledge of the machine's view is the binary. but you are not interested in that, you are interested in intension and a particular sort of meaning,
18:07	asciilifeform	interested in the most compact accessible diff representation.
18:07	asciilifeform	whichever that happens to be.
18:08	mircea_popescu	rather, interested in the most compact notation of intent
18:08	mircea_popescu	as opposed to most accurate description of function.
18:08	asciilifeform	( compactness both of the diff and of the wholes that were diffed. )
18:09	mircea_popescu	as a subpoint, it is true copy/pasteism makes muddled "authorship" socially acceptable, and this is a great thing, and the perfect bullet to kill usg."intellectual property" with ; but it does NOT make responsibility any weaker, and thereby feeds no rats.
18:09	asciilifeform	this is the part i dunget.
18:09	mircea_popescu	i will not care one wit whether author of package i use copied or wrote offending bit. signed it -- that's that.
18:09	asciilifeform	all muddles feed rats.
18:10	mircea_popescu	if this were true nuclear reactors would be fulla rats. they... aren't. gluon muddle, and yet...
18:10	asciilifeform	precisely because they dilute the responsibility.
18:10	mircea_popescu	how ?
18:10	asciilifeform	the 1 usg mole who inserts boobytrap, and the 15 chekists who failed to find him, in my book do NOT have equal responsibility.
18:11	mircea_popescu	why do you imagine you'd even see all of these ?
18:11	asciilifeform	the 15 are to answer for ~their~ sin.
18:11	mircea_popescu	the 2 who failed to find, whom you rated, you unrate.
18:11	mircea_popescu	this system is designed to work well, not to work thoroughly. it requires no such panopticonism as you envisage.
18:11	asciilifeform	well in cutandpasteism world, there is not 1 mole and 15 chekists. there are 16 signers, is all.
18:11	mircea_popescu	quite so.
18:11	asciilifeform	if you refuse to distinguish authorship from signature.
18:12	asciilifeform	and this is The Wrong Thing.
18:12	mircea_popescu	and whenever someone signs something not-good, ima have their head.
18:12	asciilifeform	i'd rather have 1 usg head and 15 living friends.
18:12	mircea_popescu	this is a hallucinated counterworld.
18:13	asciilifeform	all hypothetical worlds are hallucinated, lol
18:13	mircea_popescu	yes but the problem with this one is that it is fundamentally incompatible with reality.
18:13	asciilifeform	howssat
18:13	mircea_popescu	how do you propose to distinguish one among the 16 ?
18:14	asciilifeform	1 originated. the rest not.
18:14	mircea_popescu	this is like saying "moses fingered one". the idea is, something within your hand, not some sort of religious fiction.
18:14	asciilifeform	mr.x signed 'i wrote ....' , 15 checkists signed 'i witness thereby that mr.x last night had wrote...'
18:14	asciilifeform	the time parameter is real.
18:15	asciilifeform	one's a sig, 15 are sigs of a sig.
18:15	asciilifeform	physically separable entities.
18:15	mircea_popescu	leaving aside the problem of time in this system, which promises to be gnarly (time where ?), would it TRULY make you feel better about systemd if the blond schmuck whose name i forget claimed alien possession ?
18:15	asciilifeform	i'm unaware of any muddle re whodunit in systemdism
18:16	asciilifeform	the perp is loud, proud.
18:16	mircea_popescu	question stands as asked.
18:17	asciilifeform	learning 'on whose orders' mole worked, is not valueless
18:17	mircea_popescu	how about this "mechanical borrowing" system you proposes ACTUALLY weakens responsibility, because the 15, instead of taking seriously their true deed, which IS in fact authorship-indistinguishable, rather aim to hide behind a claim of "hey, we merely work here, signing signatures" a sort of "well i really wanted to X and the only part Y available was Koch's so don't blame me"
18:17	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform there is no possibility of such learning.
18:18	asciilifeform	without attribution , it is impossible to determine who even ~is~ the mole.
18:18	mircea_popescu	or care. or in any other bakchand way re-import the empire of stupid into existence.
18:18	asciilifeform	because any given item can have 'simply appeared'
18:19	asciilifeform	the idea is to expunge anyone who so much as shows a hint of 'i merely work here', as an unreliable element.
18:19	mircea_popescu	right.
18:19	asciilifeform	if you even have them within smelling distance, your system is broken.
18:19	mircea_popescu	what is your standard of proof anyway ? suppose x claims that koch works for weimer ; and y claims weimer works for koch. how do you distinguish these claims ?
18:20	asciilifeform	obviously can't distinguish. not unless all 3 are in the room, hanging upside down and plugged into the mains. and perhaps not even then.
18:20	mircea_popescu	so then what specifically are you trying to translate into protocol here ?
18:20	asciilifeform	what i want is more modest thing -- to know who made a particular change. in all cases.
18:20	mircea_popescu	change, yes. just not really know who made a particular genesis, is all.
18:20	mircea_popescu	the goddess made all genesises.
18:20	asciilifeform	incl the change from nonexistence.
18:20	mircea_popescu	this can not be had.
18:21	asciilifeform	in the general case, cannot
18:21	asciilifeform	in particular cases - can.
18:21	mircea_popescu	children are born out of an unamed, indistinct wall of cunt. the only point of interest is which father signed off on it.
18:22	*	asciilifeform pictures mircea_popescu posting from something like a beehive , on distant world
18:22	mircea_popescu	and in particular cases, you can make a note to self.
18:22	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform this planet ; the planet where men have tried for 50 centuries to tell the woman "make me a son, and one that's not idiotic, and not too expensive" and she brought whatever shrubbery she brought.
18:22	mircea_popescu	because... it's what it is.
18:23	asciilifeform	no but i like the image of literal wall-o-cunt, lol
18:23	mircea_popescu	:p
18:23	*	trinque lost it at shrubbery
18:24	mircea_popescu	but the sheer insanity to attempt a protocol built on a knowledge that it dun work in the general case, but in some particulars. what is this, building unix ?!
18:24	asciilifeform	almost nothing is doable for general case.
18:24	asciilifeform	e.g. proving haltability.
18:24	asciilifeform	but for specific case -- doable.
18:25	mircea_popescu	nevertheless, as a matter of course, your protocol must work in all cases it purports to cover or it isn't.
18:25	asciilifeform	'work' in this item means to provide the answer if it is available. and silence if it is not.
18:26	asciilifeform	this is an attainable thing.
18:26	mircea_popescu	it would appear to me the "copy what you want into your tree" provides exactly that.
18:26	asciilifeform	it flattens histories.
18:26	mircea_popescu	note if you will that "bubblesort", while a fully defined symbol, does not actually denote any specific implementation as such.
18:27	asciilifeform	i do not understand why histories ever must be flattened.
18:27	mircea_popescu	this turns into an interesting inverse case of "the code is not the spec", whereby... the spec is not the code.
18:27	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform because in some parts they're fictitious (read : unknowable) histories.
18:27	mircea_popescu	only that can be history, which can be ascertained.
18:28	asciilifeform	neither 'is' the other. just as drawing of kalash is not a kalash, you cannot fire it. and conversely, physical, firable kalash is not the drawing, the parts are wherever they are in the tolerance range, to make more from the 1 example you will have to redraw the drawing and determine the tolerances.
18:29	mircea_popescu	but tell me asciilifeform who invented bubblesort ? who, "the egyptian" multiplication ? who, the lisp memory model ? who invented anything ?
18:29	mircea_popescu	"oh, von neumann invented the 486". really tyvm.
		↖
18:29	asciilifeform	the relationship that exists between the kalash and its drawing, is not an 'is'.
18:29	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: observe that i did not ask for a v that deals in ~concepts~, only mechanisms.
18:29	asciilifeform	nobody in my lifetime will make a 'concepts v.'
18:30	mircea_popescu	so then you propose the xor variable flip was invented by whom ? what tree do i import when i do it ?
18:30	asciilifeform	it ain't an import.
18:30	mircea_popescu	what is ?
18:30	asciilifeform	nuffin in ffa is an import, in classical v, or in asciilifeform's ideal v
18:31	asciilifeform	or in any other. whole thing written from vacuum.
18:31	mircea_popescu	note though that there WERE some disputes re its utility/feasibility! that cropped up in discussion! remember ?
18:31	asciilifeform	i'll repeat, i do not ask for a v that understands 'essences' or makes any such attempt.
18:31	mircea_popescu	with what original shall the machine compare ?
18:31	mircea_popescu	you say you aren't, but...
18:32	asciilifeform	speaking strictly of text.
18:32	mircea_popescu	if your desire can't be made to work in elementary cases, how would it work at all, is the bojum here. what, xor assignment gets a free pass, but "any program longer than 6 lines magically becomes attributable" ?>
18:32	asciilifeform	it gets attributed if it previously appeared under a signature somewhere.
18:32	asciilifeform	and if not, not. that simple.
18:33	mircea_popescu	the ~type~ of problem that cropped up with the xor assignment (whereby -- careful at context X might shoot self in foot) is ~exactly~ and with no remainder the type of problem we are fighting, whereby "oh, this ssl totally works for rsa, except... when it does not"
18:33	asciilifeform	as i said to apeloyee, in NO case can it be guaranteed that the parts cannot be cut up and re-sewn into a subtly broken shape.
18:33	asciilifeform	hence why i sign the whole, and not 'routine'
18:33	mircea_popescu	quite.
18:34	mircea_popescu	there is no implicit attribution of text ~specifically because~ there is no ghost of moses caught in the letters anymore than there's soul intertwined in the brain.
18:35	asciilifeform	and i will say, ftr, that invocation of ANY ffa components on ANY overlapping segments, is an abuse. and there is not in fact any way to guarantee correctness , if such a thing is permissible.
18:36	mircea_popescu	say it in the fucking comments of ffa, not here, at that.
18:36	mircea_popescu	what literate code is all about, nothing keeps you from putting a philosophy.preamble file in there.
		↖
18:36	asciilifeform	it is going into ch8
18:36	mircea_popescu	on the exact contrary, everyone wants nothing else.
18:36	mircea_popescu	good.
18:36	asciilifeform	previously thought that it was obvious.
18:43	mircea_popescu	that's kinda how that goes.
18:44	mircea_popescu	and, back to the trunk, we've not even discussed the horror of translation. suppose you write a thing, in ada. suppose another, who works on a lisp tree, takes your thing and identically translates it to lisp (here defined, that on any correct machine his code will in all cases behave indentically to yours). what's your v to do here ?
18:44	asciilifeform	nothing!
18:45	asciilifeform	how many time do i gotta say it, i do not ask for a concepts-v.
18:45	asciilifeform	text-v strictly.
18:45	mircea_popescu	suppose yet another one takes your thing, fixes a bug, and says "this genesis also includes exactly alf's thing verbatim, except for this subtle bug i fixed". thereby... these are different, yes ?
18:45	mircea_popescu	man saying "this is of x" is the only marginal history available here.
18:45	asciilifeform	different if the difference can be written as a program.
18:45	asciilifeform	which i am satisfied performs the requisite diff and comes up with the expected answer.
18:46	asciilifeform	the 'includes verbatim' proposition is mechanically answerable.
18:46	asciilifeform	anything pertaining to 'conceptual' identities --- is not.
18:46	mircea_popescu	paternity is purely conventional in this strong sense. among us, we may think r,s & a invented rsa. among some gray beards somewhere else, they may well know better.
18:46	asciilifeform	( as per chaitin et al )
18:46	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: which is why i won't touch concepts-paternity.
18:46	asciilifeform	strings strictly.
18:47	mircea_popescu	yes, but the code we review is not strictly speaking text.
18:47	mircea_popescu	i can't be the only one who translates code as a routine attempt at understanding wtf.
18:47	asciilifeform	i'm pretty curious nao what this looks like in typical practice
18:48	mircea_popescu	what do you mean "what it looks like". it looks like, say, v!
18:48	mircea_popescu	"code your own", why is that even there.
18:48	asciilifeform	no, the 'translate code in attempt to understand' item
18:48	mircea_popescu	yes ?
18:49	*	mircea_popescu has been encouraging people to do just that since just about its inception
18:49	asciilifeform	it is not actually clear to asciilifeform that code ~can~ be properly speaking translated.
18:49	asciilifeform	consider a translation of ffa to c
18:50	mircea_popescu	well, the attempt to translate v proved itself extremely productive neh.
18:50	asciilifeform	from certain pov it is 'same', but if you were to change ANYTHING -- you can now get segfault. whereas in original, it was not physically possible.
18:50	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: because it was reimplementation, rather than translation.
18:50	mircea_popescu	and yet a bundle of c that produces exact same binary as your ada compiler does -- could be written
18:50	asciilifeform	could!
18:50	mircea_popescu	(for a better c complier, less "optimizing" at least)
18:51	asciilifeform	there's at least 1 lisptron that actually worked this way
18:51	asciilifeform	(iirc 'chicken')
18:51	mircea_popescu	right.
18:51	mircea_popescu	so, yes, ~can~.
18:51	asciilifeform	the result, however, is not in any sense 'translation', it is more of a compilation.
18:51	mircea_popescu	would look like all gnarl, but anyway.
18:51	asciilifeform	the output cannot be for any practical purpose worked with human hands.
18:51	mircea_popescu	right.
18:52	asciilifeform	sorta the situation for which we even have word 'compilation'
18:52	asciilifeform	in re proggy.
18:52	mircea_popescu	exactly like that.
18:53	asciilifeform	and incidentally whenever i translate something to engl , from ~anything else, ~same flavour.
18:53	mircea_popescu	yes, well, computer languages are supposed to not do that.
18:53	asciilifeform	i must've missed this memo.
18:53	mircea_popescu	but of the crooked timber...
18:53	asciilifeform	because they not only do it, but exaggeratedly, cartoon-coloured, do it.
18:54	mircea_popescu	if they were properly orthogonal-ized they would not, is the whole idea.
18:56	asciilifeform	upstack re the impossibility of translating the safety of an ada program's nearby-modifications-phasespace to c -- i suspect that mircea_popescu's thesis re 'files are not separate units' not only is troo, but does not go far enuff :
18:56	asciilifeform	program is not meaningfully separable from ~all~ of the necessary parts to make it go.
18:56	mircea_popescu	sadly this is likely so.
18:57	asciilifeform	compiler, etc., machine.
18:57	asciilifeform	there is 'edge space', as things are , also there.
18:57	mircea_popescu	for instance -- leaky machine will make your rsa impl leak
18:57	asciilifeform	consider every other week somebody shows up with 'i have gnat 2014 and...'
18:57	mircea_popescu	we are currently handwaving this, but it's there alright.
18:57	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: for some value of 'leaky machine' , quite obviously will
18:58	asciilifeform	maybe it broadcasts every cpu register on 'voice of america', who knows
18:58	asciilifeform	somebody, somewhere, has such a machine.
18:58	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772646 << invented mergesort, to do the man justice.
18:58	a111	Logged on 2018-01-18 23:29 mircea_popescu: "oh, von neumann invented the 486". really tyvm.
18:58	mircea_popescu	who even knows this, left as separate issue.
18:58	asciilifeform	i'll give concrete example. :
18:59	asciilifeform	the use of comba , and in fact of ANY multiplier that compiles into having a x86 MUL instruction anywhere in it, is unsafe on intel celeron. and ppc32. and possibly ppc64.
18:59	asciilifeform	they shortcut-on-zero when MULing.
18:59	asciilifeform	only egyptological mul can be used on such machines.
18:59	mircea_popescu	an example of plenty available.
18:59	asciilifeform	( preferably if you have such a machine -- throw it out!! now! )
18:59	mircea_popescu	btw, apropos of unrelated ancient thread : does your hatred of cyclotrons extend to desy as well ? no gluons for you ?
19:00	mircea_popescu	(before the large cern one, a smaller all-german item existed, proved most of modern physics, including all sorts of quark properties, laid the groundwork for eventual finding of top quark, etc)
19:00	asciilifeform	not so much even that 'hate', but observed that current-day practitioners are proliferators of factolade, and not unifiers.
19:01	asciilifeform	the troo wothy, is the man who SHRINKS the textbook.
19:01	mircea_popescu	desy is perhaps the golden age of german science, and rather inseparable in any case.
19:04	asciilifeform	i respect folx who do honest work, even on particle zoos. just as i respect that cataloguers of rare birds in the jungle ; it is not a wholly pointless thing. but it is not comparable to heaviside, who walked into a room with 22 equations and came out with 4.
19:05	asciilifeform	( incidentally there is -- imho wholly without merit -- a school of physical-crackpotteristic thought that holds that he botched the job. )
19:05	mircea_popescu	yes well.
19:15	asciilifeform	oh hey in the new mircea_popescu article : the item re 'cruise ship'. asciilifeform confesses, he never understood what is the appeal
19:15	asciilifeform	why put a shit hotel on a boat ?
19:16	mircea_popescu	"if the nazis come -- can sail away" "really bitch ? never heard of uboats ?" "THOSE WOULD BE ILLEGAL"
19:16	mircea_popescu	such an utterly fragile item your eyes water, like from onion.
19:16	asciilifeform	speaking of current-day cruiseship chumpatron
19:16	mircea_popescu	yes.
19:16	asciilifeform	what's the draw ?
19:16	asciilifeform	lotta chumps seem to reliably sign up
19:17	mircea_popescu	item is 1950s revival of pre 1915 extant item with utility (cross the atlantic pleasantly)
19:17	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform lotta chumpsteins and chumpstein-wannabes.
19:17	asciilifeform	well in 1915 it was 'cross with minimal pain', sorta like the $5k plus 1stclass chair on modern air liner
19:17	mircea_popescu	kinda ended by 1915, but yes in 1890 absolutely.
19:18	asciilifeform	whereas the airliner equiv to the cruise would be to buy a 1stclass ticket to go nowhere in particular, in a circle
19:18	asciilifeform	not even getting out of the plane
19:18	asciilifeform	i could even see the appeal if the plane were e.g. a mig, and does immelmans.
19:19	mircea_popescu	there's a certain "cramped spaces and highschool-ariline boarding security" nazism reinstatement that is appealing to a certain sort of person.
19:19	asciilifeform	but would you on airbus ? and who would, and why.
19:19	asciilifeform	hm so b&d-istic hypothesis ?
19:19	mircea_popescu	mostly, people who got it hammered into childhood that they suck for hating the peas, because their grandaunt edsel died in whichever camp
19:19	asciilifeform	i ain't got a better one. it'd make sense.
19:19	mircea_popescu	i'm telling you, cruise is jewsanity.
19:20	mircea_popescu	"city on a hill. of froth."
19:20	asciilifeform	ugh
19:21	mircea_popescu	(for the needs of this exercise, the unitarian ustards are jew-wannabes.)
19:21	asciilifeform	i dunno if anyone alive today knows what actual j00z looked like.
19:21	asciilifeform	they got thermonuked
19:21	mircea_popescu	rahter.
19:21	asciilifeform	like the proper-penguin.
19:22	asciilifeform	did mircea_popescu ever write about, incidentally, penguin ?
19:22	asciilifeform	how the name of the misfortunate bird, was recycled.
19:22	mircea_popescu	that it got replaced ? im sure it's a mention here and there in the log
19:22	asciilifeform	must be.
19:24	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771980 << fine example of the context problem. "yes, i have the chip" "so what can you do ?" "nothing."
19:24	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 20:11 asciilifeform: ( or what it expects to find on the bus, or almost anything else )
19:25	asciilifeform	aaalmost nothing.
19:25	mircea_popescu	tru.
19:25	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771984 << the mechanism are "only the files named may exist".
19:25	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 20:13 apeloyee: I proposed being able to name arbitrary required antecedents << also probably needs a mechanism to declare "there are no other files in the tree"
19:26	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771985 << i don't understand where the extra mass comes from iyo. in the trinque solution, one extra file'd have been gaining a total of count-patches lines. ook ?
19:26	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 20:14 asciilifeform: apeloyee: look at the trb tree, and picture what the mass of the patches would have been, if this requirement had been in effect when i made it.
19:27	asciilifeform	i'ma come back to this item when trinquetronic v is available
19:27	asciilifeform	practical demonstration beats hypotheticals.
19:27	deedbot	http://trilema.com/2018/and-another-day-dawns-or-multipicture-megapost/ << Trilema - And another day dawns, or Multipicture Megapost
19:32	asciilifeform	'Full rubber tyres, no inflation at all. Yes, exactly like in the toy items we had as children. Progress, you see,' << this is coming. possibly already deployed on 'upscale' americars.
19:33	mircea_popescu	idiots.
19:33	mircea_popescu	"let's use everything exactly contrary to its utility envelope"
19:34	mircea_popescu	anyway, i ordered the creation of special proper tyres for myself only. and it shall be done.
19:34	mircea_popescu	and what people who aren't imperial majesties themselves will do i have nfi.
19:34	asciilifeform	pretty sure you can get tubed tires in usa.
19:34	asciilifeform	lotta vintage car aficionado folx here.
19:35	asciilifeform	( and motorcycle , tractor, bus , tire -- still tubed afaik errywhere )
19:36	mircea_popescu	!#s "LARP"
19:36	a111	13 results for "\"LARP\"", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%22LARP%22
19:37	mircea_popescu	did i at some point know what larping means ?
19:38	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772007 <<< they went to "social media" aka sv wankpost rather than eg, came here, for a reason, after all.
19:38	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 20:32 fromloper: yeah, somehow a lot of potentially interesting people on social media end up mostly posting this kind of crap
19:40	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772030 << report any developments!
19:40	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 20:43 fromloper: so there is at least one possible address, gotta try it
19:42	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772041 << quite this. symbolics had the distinction of marketing inept to the amplitude of apple's, except negative.
19:42	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 20:47 asciilifeform: to be fair the company was not really a honest commercial co, moar like one of those unofficial usg research institutes, they proliferated under reagan and died with him
19:43	shinohai	Heh, curious you mention that about tires, never thought of it until now mircea_popescu, but bicycle wheels are the only place you can still get an inner tube afaik.
19:43	shinohai	(in latest trilema)
19:43	mircea_popescu	ill get tubes in whatever the fuck i fucking want them. but yes, they try not to sell them anymore.
19:44	mircea_popescu	"let's make proper car behave more like electric if we can';t make electric ever be proper car"
19:44	mircea_popescu	hurr.
19:44	mircea_popescu	i want 200km pitstops for the car like i want fat old women in my livingroom.
19:45	asciilifeform	somehow asciilifeform's tyres hold pressure for yr+
19:46	asciilifeform	( and yes i have a manometer , and one of those small pumps )
19:46	asciilifeform	possibly because asciilifeform drives on asphalt, and not jungle ? nfi
19:46	mircea_popescu	well... car spent one hour on asphaltless road, lost two tyres. not fucking acceptabru.
19:47	mircea_popescu	granted, the idiots here are something else -- they did everything up to but excluding the asphalt cover. an exercise in "how to spend 95% of the cost to get 3% of the benefit"
19:48	asciilifeform	the 1 item that still ~worx to spec in usa : roads. sorta like bread in ye olde su. it is a symbol of imperial 'mandate of heaven'
19:48	mircea_popescu	already crumbling at the edges.
19:48	asciilifeform	indeed
19:49	asciilifeform	always ~was~ dodgy at the edges
19:49	shinohai	Drive through rural Alabama sometimes.
19:49	mircea_popescu	at some point empire gave up on budgets ; more recently, it gave up on maintenance -- most bridges did not pass for years and now are noit even inspected anymore.
19:49	asciilifeform	but typical 'coast' amerid00d gives exactly 0 fucks what the roads, or bread, or anything , are like in oklahomistan.
19:49	asciilifeform	may as well be afganistan.
19:49	mircea_popescu	go, ask for bridge inspection records of bridge/county of your choice, be amazed.
19:50	mircea_popescu	amusingly, the romans also regularly inspected, for 90% of their history, both bridges and aqueducts (not so different in ther practice, items). stopped late 300s.
19:50	asciilifeform	muchly depends where. literally few blox from asciilifeform , bridge is being recemented. and not far from there, a brand new one built.
19:51	asciilifeform	but easily can believe that in walmartfuckistan -- not inspected.
19:51	mircea_popescu	o, building they do. maintenance, not so much.
19:55	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772096 << that contract is worth ~diddly squat. iirc the (utterly unimpressive) fiatola figures were quoted in log.
19:55	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 21:24 asciilifeform: * all gov contracts
19:55	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: possibly moar under the table
19:55	mircea_popescu	this is about as likely as imagining john kerry is a better dresser at home than when sardined with orcs for publicity photos.
19:56	mircea_popescu	does that ancient cretinetti still exist btw ?
19:56	asciilifeform	nfi
19:56	asciilifeform	asciilifeform doesn't get real time reportz on his desk when they croak..
19:58	mircea_popescu	his ~10 mn retirement went to a home in martha's vineyard and supposedly some memoirs to come.
19:59	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772104 << they were young and stupid yet.
19:59	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 21:33 trinque: if so, how did folks this corrupt build anything worth having?
20:00	mircea_popescu	there's a natural tendency to do the right thing that needs lengthy and elaborate stamping out before you get the full blown jwz.
20:03	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772122 << hurr.
20:03	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 21:41 asciilifeform: 'Cyber space is an increasingly risky discourse and therefore will inevitably be securitised.' << exactly what i said: usg stuffed shirt.
20:04	mircea_popescu	dude... nobody gives a shit now, ever will, or ever fucking has given a shit about your retarded usg idiocy. wake up and smell the coffee, jesus fucking christ, it's like watching imbecile african mamies with dirty bare feet and stupid headgarbs drone importantly about what-they-remember the preacher said in church.
20:06	mircea_popescu	amberglint, eh ?
20:09	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772185 << teh process of effervescent vitriol that passes for review here + the natural intimidatiacy result in very finely polished items, to my delight.
20:09	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 22:23 amberglint: haven't had any issues with it, it's very handy
		~ 21 minutes ~
20:30	asciilifeform	in other folx who apparently had gone fullbore usgtard since i last looked : lubos motl. e.g. https://motls.blogspot.com/2018/01/korean-backlash-to-planned-bitcoin.html .
		↖
20:31	danielpbarron	!!pay Birdman 0.05
20:31	asciilifeform	https://motls.blogspot.com/2018/01/bitcoin-fans-or-foes-who-are-statists.html << moar in same vein ( for expert entomologist only )
20:31	deedbot	Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/6s65T/?raw=true
20:33	asciilifeform	'The ISPs and commercial banks are parts of the capitalist economy and a systemic attack against them is obviously a systemic attack against capitalism – real-world capitalism – as such. Maybe it's because my position in the formative years – I considered myself a builder of the new capitalist economy including the old-fashioned brick-and-mortar commercial banks – but I just wouldn't hesitate for a second whom I root for in t
20:33	asciilifeform	his apparent conflict between the regular banks and meaningless cryptocurrency exchanges; in the conflict between the system with regular banks that has worked for centuries and an ideologically driven replacement that isn't used in the real legal economy because it obviously cannot work well...' etc
20:33	asciilifeform	didjaknow.
20:41	asciilifeform	from his commentreplies, also gold, e.g. '...People who despise Western national fiat currencies are dirty fucked-up commies of the same kind that has plundered my country. I just won't ever support their goal, they're scum for me. Do you get it? Relatively to these important things, whether the replacement is called Ripple or Rouble is just a technicality. It's the same shit except that rouble actually works as a viable currency for
20:41	asciilifeform	the economy while Ripple or the Bitcoin doesn't.'
20:41	asciilifeform	didjaalsoknow.
20:48	asciilifeform	this d00d fills a previously-unfilled hole, gotta be , 'bitcoin as bolshevism'
20:54	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2014/ron-maimon-lubos-motl-and-other-internet-things-i-hear-of-today-for-the-very-first-time/ ?
20:54	asciilifeform	him
20:54	mircea_popescu	wasn't ever much more than alt-flavour "rational" w/e pantsuit flavour
20:54	mircea_popescu	~same gallery as curtis yarvin & co.
20:55	asciilifeform	i had this vague memory that he used to write about physics
20:55	asciilifeform	currently ~100% usg talkingpoints re btc.
20:55	mircea_popescu	eh.
20:56	mircea_popescu	they all parasitize some topic or other. obama is a constitutional law scholar or how did it go.
20:56	asciilifeform	lolyes
20:57	*	mircea_popescu very much will refuse to consider random fucktards who spent 2012 going "oh, who pays for mpex seats" in the hope that "hey, i'll weasel my way back in through peripheral commentary anyway"
		↖
20:57	mircea_popescu	it's little more than a restatement of ye olde, dearest dream of all nigger, "we'll get in later anyway:"
		↖
20:57	mircea_popescu	no, you fucking wont.
20:59	mircea_popescu	but all the pretense that "today matters -- after all i was born", as if this isn't well settled 2014 fare, and http://trilema.com/2014/an-era-ends-today-a-new-era-starts-today/ never occured, and so on... he's really REALLY late to the max keiser show.
21:00	mircea_popescu	whatever, whoever is dumb enough to imagine john smith invented religion is called "ustard" for a reason.
21:01	asciilifeform	linked strictly for the flavour of crackpottery afaik not seen elsewhere, 'imaginary 1950s Greatest Generation anticommie usa' vs 'bolshevik bitcoin'
21:01	mircea_popescu	"Tony told me I was a statist because I am a critic of the Bitcoin. Tony isn't the only man who has raised this accusation."
21:01	mircea_popescu	fucking tony. to quote from recent trilema, "And obviously it will then become, suddenly and unexplainably, a "native" topic of conversation ailleurs, specifically in such ESL ailleurs as may "coincidentally" but necessarily "forget" to mention where they even discovered this may be a topic of conversation in the first place. Oy vey.."
21:02	mircea_popescu	inb4 "tony told me today something about sex with girls under 12" in another decade or so.
21:02	asciilifeform	i suspect that most of these folx are.. physiologically incapable of touching a subj that hasn't been tonywashed.
21:03	mircea_popescu	anyway. dork imagines he has some sort of cachet, exactly like orlov, exactly like all the branding idiots. what keeps eg http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Aweev from productive obedience is exactly the same fundamental problem.
21:03	mircea_popescu	like the unhappy girls of usgistan, these misfortunate trannies imagine they "have the options" etc.
21:05	asciilifeform	for so long as the cheques come in the mail, d00d can imagine whatever he likes, neh
21:05	mircea_popescu	it's a cheap if useless mental trick, very substantially the same as http://trilema.com/2014/agency-and-other-notes/#selection-31.0-37.0 ; a certain sort of safe (ie, improductive) activity as a cover for impotence.
21:05	mircea_popescu	i suspect the "inteligentsia" as it dreams itself has meanwhile redefined intellectual discourse to equate the above wank.
21:05	mircea_popescu	it's still wank.
21:06	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the cheques consisting of remarkably very little. most of these hopefuls live in the most abject poverty, made palatable to them by their idiocy and the abject poverty surrounding every aspect of their life.
21:06	mircea_popescu	but yes, broadly speaking, who has any interest in them and their flow of made for tv snacks.
21:06	asciilifeform	i have deeply nfi. for all i know motl lives in luxury.
21:07	mircea_popescu	not the parsimonious hypothesis.
21:07	asciilifeform	why does he fellate 'the west' then.
21:07	mircea_popescu	for all you know, orlov lives on a moored boat, and this dood lives in rms's quarters.
21:07	asciilifeform	typical su physics cabbie in nyc does not fellate it.
21:07	mircea_popescu	this is like asking "why does monkey shoot kalash".
21:07	mircea_popescu	it was there.
21:08	mircea_popescu	i have no idea why rational behaviour would be expected, or rational explanation for misbehaviour would be demanded of items that clearly lack either agency or reflective capacity.
21:08	mircea_popescu	in what way do you feel closer to this particular item of furniture than to your own chair ?
21:09	asciilifeform	both chair and czech idjit can be modeled as mechanism.
21:09	mircea_popescu	you actually suspect motl can think in any sense different from fg plugged in can think ? why ?
21:09	asciilifeform	'think' is not the word.
21:10	mircea_popescu	but you're not frankly sitting there and asking for explanation of perceived patterns in fg output.
21:11	mircea_popescu	he's saying the things that could be said, some fraction thereof, as a function of the possibility of saying and no more. other exactly identical items are saying other fractions, and will continue to do so. to credit this is that long discussed error, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-17#1523269
21:11	a111	Logged on 2016-08-17 17:02 mircea_popescu: Framedragger the reason there's a lot of credence in phf's perhaps harsh criticism is http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-make-money-on-the-internet-while-pretending-you-know-what-youre-talking-about-and-accumulating-a-legion-of-mindless-followers-for-fun-and-profit/
21:11	asciilifeform	if i observed an actual ( per http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-23#1660274 thread ) , vs merely hallucinated -- would demand explanation yes
21:11	a111	Logged on 2017-05-23 02:46 asciilifeform: but to display ~existing~ test failures in predictor-algorithm form
21:11	asciilifeform	*actual pattern
21:12	mircea_popescu	it's only a pattern as an artefact of a short section selected.
21:12	mircea_popescu	this is why on the long term they always either "delete" their blogs to start over, or else become insanely trite (and then "give up").
		↖
21:12	asciilifeform	this particular d00d has been at it for a while.
21:12	asciilifeform	dun seem to show any signs of exhaustion.
21:12	mircea_popescu	yarvin opted for the latter ; this one may be too thick to notice yet, or whatever, i've not looked.
21:13	mircea_popescu	or of saying anything useful or meaningful, either. orlov similar example, but at least he cycles the topics. one day -- expert on boats, next day -- expert on firearms, on it goes.
21:13	mircea_popescu	this schmuck apparently changed physics for bitcoin you say ? a well.
21:14	mircea_popescu	recall at some point was some pompous asshole locklin, "scientist" ? there's no end conceivable of supply. once one swallows the "always has choice" usg pill, that one becomes this. it's inescapable.
		↖
21:16	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-31#1761807
21:16	a111	Logged on 2017-12-31 16:27 mircea_popescu: the important point here is that there can be NO retrospective read of the history of ideas in any actual discipline that is both a) longer than epsilon and b) fails to discover the PRINCIPAL bar to discovery is personal dishonesty.
21:17	mircea_popescu	same problem manifests with the pantsuit mendacious little shits as with any larger system built on the same basis.
21:18	asciilifeform	motl is not a meat rng tho. d00d suffers from a clearly identifiable fixation, 'the west' (tm)(r) where there is a 'capitalism' (tm)(r)
21:19	asciilifeform	defined, naturally, circularly
21:19	mircea_popescu	when you say "not meat rng", how do you base this ?
21:19	mircea_popescu	because it seems to me you just said he is.
21:19	asciilifeform	because oscillator.
21:19	mircea_popescu	i don't get it ?
21:20	asciilifeform	it's an arse-mouth hose. 'west' is where 'capitalism', 'capitalism' is what they do in 'west'.
21:20	mircea_popescu	so this definitionally makes him a meat rng then ?
21:20	asciilifeform	meat oscillator.
21:20	mircea_popescu	but any implemented oscillator is a... rng ?
21:20	asciilifeform	if you like, rng with clearly visible spectral peak.
21:21	asciilifeform	it ain't an rng if i can compress the output .
21:21	asciilifeform	not one that you'd want to use as an rng, at any rate.
21:21	mircea_popescu	what is it, i don't get it. yes, but that's evidently not the interesting part nor can it. hence the original, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-19#1772909
21:21	a111	Logged on 2018-01-19 02:12 mircea_popescu: this is why on the long term they always either "delete" their blogs to start over, or else become insanely trite (and then "give up").
21:22	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform no, he's evidently not useful. but he's not a logic gate, either. he's certainly not human. the fundamental identification/classification of "i will deliver result X through randomly chosen path each time" is... rng. at least to my mind.
		↖
21:22	asciilifeform	i meant in the sense where e.g. the clock crystal on the fg, is not itself an rng. even tho it has jitter.
21:23	asciilifeform	but yes.
21:23	asciilifeform	did not link motl as 'useful, no.
21:23	mircea_popescu	you ~use it~ as a clock crystal. but what it is... well... it's actually a rng.
21:23	asciilifeform	in the sense where my chair is rng.
21:23	mircea_popescu	your usage of it is defensible, but to declare it a clock seems a little much.
21:23	asciilifeform	( if i knock it down, i cannot immediately say how it will fall... )
21:23	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform which was the source of my original, "how do you distinguish this item of furniture from your chair"
21:23	mircea_popescu	precisely so.
21:24	mircea_popescu	it's certainly ~NOT HUMAN~.
21:24	asciilifeform	motl is a loaded die tho. q is, loaded how. and does it have clinical implications for others.
21:24	mircea_popescu	if you say something to mp, you also can't immediately say what he'll respond, but this is actually interesting, as opposed to the clock jitter, mechanical jumps of chair etc.
21:24	asciilifeform	aha
21:24	mircea_popescu	you can\'t say how it'll fall but you can say it won't fall a beehive.
21:25	asciilifeform	whereas when i say 'this box is oscillator' it has a rigorous meaning. it means that i can draw the spectrum, and it is peaky.
21:26	*	mircea_popescu can't summon the interest in the instant case, but by all means.
21:26	asciilifeform	i dunno that we actually disagree, lol
21:26	mircea_popescu	i dun think we do.
21:26	mircea_popescu	just different levels of lazy, as i'm not done with log yet and you are lol.
21:26	asciilifeform	lolk
21:29	mircea_popescu	possibly also i'm like... hey, i recall this idiocy from 2012, seriously rando just discovered bitcoin today, is retracing 2012 with all the ingenuity of virgin at the altar ? how fucking endearing, /sarcasm
21:30	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1772202 << i would not go as far, theoretical physics.
21:30	a111	Logged on 2018-01-17 22:29 asciilifeform: aha. mircea_popescu also at one time was a maths man.
21:32	mircea_popescu	can prolly tell by the very functional-analytic and numeric methods bent ; and by the set-theoretic underlying representations.
21:32	mircea_popescu	whereas most serious math people of my generation are from topology and the rest of the doomed attempts to resurect the beauty of geometry.
21:36	mircea_popescu	speaking of which, recently /me introduced briefly phuctor to whitebeard, mentioned bernstein smooth integers speedup, got very confused headshake and an invitation to point to where did this wonder happen ?! in s. n. bernstein book. "not that one, a newer one, american" "oh."
21:38	asciilifeform	lol!
21:38	mircea_popescu	apparently did some work on smoothness, i had nfi, but anyway.
21:41	asciilifeform	briefly to return to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-19#1772934 , what motl and most other similar are, is precisely this : the unwanted oscillator. ever see a street lamp that flickered, on, off, on , off
21:41	a111	Logged on 2018-01-19 02:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform no, he's evidently not useful. but he's not a logic gate, either. he's certainly not human. the fundamental identification/classification of "i will deliver result X through randomly chosen path each time" is... rng. at least to my mind.
21:41	asciilifeform	or washing machine walking across a room
21:41	mircea_popescu	sure.
21:42	asciilifeform	or a defective rng. or hell knows just about every broken-but-running mechanism.
21:42	mircea_popescu	or, for that matter, fg. it's how it fucking works, on, off, on...
21:42	asciilifeform	again , the diff is in the spectra.
21:42	mircea_popescu	but yes, once they invested in the aproiori fixed point, they can only walk around the room.
21:43	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform yes, one is good and the other not so good. no argument.
21:43	asciilifeform	i have yet to meet the man who ~wanted~ to be oscillator tho.
21:43	asciilifeform	it is a thing that they end up . but nobody sets out to.
21:43	mircea_popescu	every indian ever set out to, as far as i know.
21:44	asciilifeform	but folx working with contradictory priors are doomed to oscillate. at least if they're serious.
21:44	mircea_popescu	it's a very third worldy thing, to want to be the sad horse turning around the peg. so much so they actually sell this insanity here, as toys.
21:44	mircea_popescu	onward hops the plastic horse, and there's a circle of dirt under its feet on the wooden square...
21:44	asciilifeform	hey if dressed up a bit, sells just as well in usa -- arsebook 'games' etc
21:45	mircea_popescu	nepenthe, you know, the one item that was ever in true demand.
21:45	asciilifeform	'chukcha wrote a book. we open the book: pg 1: 'man got on a horse.' pg . N : 'man got off horse' pg . 2 .. N-1 : 'tgdyk, tgdyk, tdgyk...' '
		↖
21:45	mircea_popescu	lol.
21:46	mircea_popescu	i had no idea this is how you say horse gallop in russian. it's same in romanian too!
21:46	asciilifeform	yea holyfuq i had nfi that the 8legged 'horses' on romars also tgdyk'd !11!
21:46	mircea_popescu	tîgdîc-tîgdîc
21:47	asciilifeform	aaha.
21:47	asciilifeform	btw is it tru re the î
21:47	mircea_popescu	hm ?
21:48	asciilifeform	that the 'â turns into î when beginning or end of word' was only Officially Proclaimed in... 1990
21:48	mircea_popescu	yup.
21:48	asciilifeform	nuts.
21:48	mircea_popescu	i know.
21:48	asciilifeform	why not just ы like sane folx!11
21:49	mircea_popescu	"so as tyo make it moar latin". as fucking if, and etcetera.
21:49	asciilifeform	lol if even the english threw out their, e.g., thorn , to 'be moar latin'.
21:49	mircea_popescu	they... did.
21:50	asciilifeform	sad.
21:50	mircea_popescu	also did some stuff to be more greek...
21:51	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform damn, tyou got it backwards. ~î~ is to turn into the previously never used â inside words. (previously, only usage of â was for România. but rather than JUST TAKE THE DAMNED THING OUT ALTOGETHER they ... contrived to "make use")
21:52	asciilifeform	oh hah.
21:52	mircea_popescu	for a long time the country's name was written in the japanese style, http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-03#1513931
21:52	a111	Logged on 2016-08-03 15:40 phf: the whole font changes meaning take two is coming from the japanese. they were actively promoting this idea back during early unicode standardization days, where there was a strong drive to include every idiosyncratic version of kanji in the standard, because "that's how my family writes it in our last name".
21:52	mircea_popescu	thje logical step was to just get rid of it altogether.
21:52	asciilifeform	surreal. gotta wonder from where the item even came.
21:52	mircea_popescu	the insanity of using two different letters for the exact same item ... but anyway.
21:53	asciilifeform	incidentally, i picked up a lulb00k from a bankrupt shop , 'молдавский язык' , chisinau , 1990 . even has 'history' intro. guess of what country, 0 mention.
21:53	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2011/grafia-istorica-a-limbii-romane/ << review item depicted on right
21:53	mircea_popescu	ima guess... russia.
21:54	asciilifeform	naa
21:54	mircea_popescu	china.
21:54	asciilifeform	lolromania
21:54	mircea_popescu	noo ?!
21:54	asciilifeform	picture this.
21:54	mircea_popescu	so how do they explain stephen, afaik he's like, object of cult there.
21:54	mircea_popescu	greek originally ?
21:54	asciilifeform	martians, apparently, dropped moldavia, fully formed.
21:54	mircea_popescu	some history book.
21:54	asciilifeform	if one had to go from this book.
21:55	mircea_popescu	page 1 : moldavia isn't. page 300 : moldavia is. rest of pages...
21:55	asciilifeform	well it's a language thing.
21:55	asciilifeform	but even so.
21:55	mircea_popescu	lemme fish this thing out
21:56	asciilifeform	most preciously, in intro, 'moldavian is a language quite like other foreign languages you may have learned, such as french, spanish, italian...'
21:56	asciilifeform	not in the list : ro
21:56	asciilifeform	from pov of author, it NeverHappened..
21:56	mircea_popescu	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rWcs7zoR2F8 << moldavian-made lulz on same topic.
22:08	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772295 << nah, outsourcerisms.
22:08	a111	Logged on 2018-01-18 14:57 asciilifeform: 'The United States federal government has paid approximately half a million dollars to a private corporation to help various agencies conduct surveillance on the Bitcoin blockchain' << pretty lulzy, that's, e.g., 3 janitors, 2 clerks, 1 intern, for 1yr
22:09	asciilifeform	yea likely exactly 1 d00d, his yacht and laughter.
22:10	mircea_popescu	hey, they paid me i dun recall how many mns exactly to fuck their mit boobs, what's another fraction.
22:15	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-18#1772348 << well, i'd say ok let's take it, except for the issue where we can't actually pay them.
22:15	a111	Logged on 2018-01-18 18:48 deedbot: http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/01/18/datacenter-costs/ << Bingo Blog - Datacenter Costs
22:15	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo what's the trade situation there, can you get a pile of cash for btc locally ?
22:23	asciilifeform	bandwidth price looks near-orbital
22:23	asciilifeform	pretty sure e.g. inmarsat costs comparably
22:24	asciilifeform	and runs faster.
22:24	asciilifeform	e.g. '100/100 Mpbs Symmetric: 3037 USD monthly'
22:25	asciilifeform	i dun recall ever seeing a price like this outside of satellite market.
22:25	asciilifeform	come to think of it, maybe the sole connection to that cage ~is~ a sat ?!
22:29	asciilifeform	could emplace literally 10 boxes in heathendom for that bandwidth price alone. and with 100/100 (or greater) on each.
22:30	asciilifeform	it is possible that BingoBoingo is being gouged, similar to what the accountants tried to do ?
22:30	asciilifeform	'we think that saheeb has much money, let's weld on a coupla zeros'
22:31	asciilifeform	or hm, possibly had already this thread, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-17#1740045
22:31	a111	Logged on 2017-11-17 04:55 asciilifeform: i can picture the backroom convo, 'hey how many zeros can we glue to the gringo's price'
22:32	asciilifeform	tho i cannot immediately tell how it came out.
22:35	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: how many datacentres in uruguay ? what % have you spoken to ?
22:35	asciilifeform	all 3k/100M ?!
22:35	*	asciilifeform bbl,meat
		~ 17 minutes ~
22:53	trinque	BingoBoingo: latechco quoted me 700 setup, 700/mo
22:58	trinque	this btw after I ignored him for a week
		~ 49 minutes ~
23:48	mod6	megal0g

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