Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2017-06-20 | 2017-06-22 → ↓
02:31 deedbot http://www.contravex.com/2017/06/21/i-know-the-last-train-is-leaving-the-station-but-thats-ok-ill-grab-the-next-one/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - “I know the last train is leaving the station but that’s ok I’ll grab the next one.”
02:33 BingoBoingo Very trippy new trilema header
~ 6 hours 52 minutes ~
09:26 mircea_popescu asciilifeform http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/druPv/?raw=true
09:27 mircea_popescu trinque http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/QycSh/?raw=true
09:27 mircea_popescu mod6 http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/Fpxb5/?raw=true
09:28 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: got it, gimme a min
09:28 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/C1eU7/?raw=true
09:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform kk
09:28 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/qj4DD/?raw=true
09:29 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: done.
09:29 mircea_popescu normally this happens "privately" as per usg.freenode's notion of that, but since http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-20#1672501 i figure what the hell, we can have one public day.
09:29 a111 Logged on 2017-06-20 16:30 phf: scussions, but also any kind of attempt at crypto communication. there was nothing to say all along.
09:29 mircea_popescu thereby making june 21st the republican "day of there was nothing to say all along" and a holiday.
09:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform ty kindly!
09:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: np!
09:32 mircea_popescu asciilifeform http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/4Sgct/?raw=true
09:32 asciilifeform got it!
09:33 mircea_popescu dun dun duuun.
~ 45 minutes ~
10:18 shinohai Happy Solstice/day of there was nothing to say all along Day !
10:19 mircea_popescu wasn't that yest ?
10:19 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: ack
10:19 mircea_popescu shinohai precesion, yo. by now solstice moved to late 20th evening.
10:19 shinohai Ah!
10:20 * shinohai now wonders what to do with these naked girls in the kitchen ....
10:20 mircea_popescu send them home, it's all fruhstuck't.
10:25 mircea_popescu and speaking of black chix code : https://www.google.com/search?q=Elena+Istode&tbm=isch
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10:26 mircea_popescu (yet another of ex ro president traian basescu's harem was finally "found" by teh ro tards. this one is an actual general no less, and organised more parties / ows-likes than ~anyone in the us).
10:26 mod6 mornin tmsr~
10:26 mircea_popescu hola
10:27 mircea_popescu (perhaps also of note, what piddly orlol boats pass for "the yacht!! of a mobster!!!" in rotardland.)
10:27 * asciilifeform considered buying the orloltron
10:28 mod6 the boat?!
10:28 asciilifeform aha
10:28 mircea_popescu lmao. but why ?
10:28 asciilifeform although it is suspiciously cheap
10:28 mod6 the ocean is a desert. i don't think i could do that for extended time.
10:29 asciilifeform if the 'replaced and renovated everything!111' is in fact tru
10:29 mircea_popescu dude, you are off your fucking rocker. you have no experience whatsoever with boating and will buy a 2nd hand item ?
10:29 mircea_popescu how the fuck will you evaluate anything about it ?
10:29 mircea_popescu noobs buy new. golden rule, don't step out.
10:29 asciilifeform for asciilifeform , 'new' means 'never'
10:29 asciilifeform because $mil
10:29 mircea_popescu this is NOT A CRITERIA.
10:29 asciilifeform sure it is.
10:30 mircea_popescu nope.
10:30 asciilifeform [insert mircea_popescu boat thread here!111]
10:30 mircea_popescu you understand, for $retard "correctly means never" is how he gets into javascript ?
10:30 mircea_popescu it is a stupid thing to do. i don't care what you think "means never" means.
10:31 mircea_popescu the schmuck above, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-20#1672451 like so many equal schmucks before him, thought "read logs and get into tmsr ? THAT MEANS NEVER!!!! LOG TOO LONG!!!" etc.
10:31 a111 Logged on 2017-06-20 14:45 sn0wmonster: do you always do this?
10:31 asciilifeform asciilifeform barely ever buys 'new' anythings. 'newness' is a chump tax.
10:31 mircea_popescu so don't buy it new in the us, buy it new in china.
10:31 mircea_popescu you understand this ? industrial process offers a guarantee of sameness and conformity, such as it is. natural decay DOES NOT.
10:32 mircea_popescu all items coming off the factory line are worth ~same within a few percents, AND the whole fucking world is out there trying to figure out FOR YOU, on their own dime, what that SAME is.
10:32 asciilifeform i'll be sure to buy new b0at in china as soon as i learn chinese, get into cpcn wot, and obtain teleporter.
10:32 mircea_popescu a used item can be worth anything through mt_rand(0, new)
10:33 * mircea_popescu can buy used cars. CARS. because i bought and own hundreds. i can't buy fucking used boats, and i doubt you can (or would, or do for that matter) buy used cars.
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10:33 mircea_popescu bought and owned*
10:34 asciilifeform incidentally 'industrial process offers a guarantee of sameness and conformity', 'natural decay DOES NOT' is not wholly given : there exists such a thing as turdalicious production processes, and -- on opposite end -- the 'bathtub curve' of winnowing
10:34 asciilifeform electric transformers, for instance
10:34 mod6 asciilifeform: you'd be better of renting a boat if you just wanna have some fun. if you want escape-hatch, then you escape, buy boat later at where ever with translator et al.
10:34 asciilifeform and i would not buy anything BUT a used car, wtf
10:34 asciilifeform newness is a chump tax.
10:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform sure. when you buy a used electric transformer, i'll keep my peace.
10:35 asciilifeform plain and simple. ( it drives off the dealer lot, suddenly loses 10k in value, lol )
10:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform do you buy it over the internet, too ?
10:35 asciilifeform i certainly do.
10:35 asciilifeform or would, at any rate.
10:35 mircea_popescu did you.
10:35 asciilifeform transformer? yes!
10:35 asciilifeform was even a thread here.
10:36 mircea_popescu no dude, used car over craigslist.
10:36 asciilifeform ah these no
10:36 mircea_popescu i swear the loony reservation is doing things to your head. you ended up baking in us "consumer protection" laws at some level.
10:36 asciilifeform but i've had the same (inherited) auto for eons.
10:36 mircea_popescu so you didn't... buy it ?
10:36 asciilifeform nope.
10:36 mircea_popescu so then wtf are you talking about.
10:36 mircea_popescu of couse your brotyher isn't going to stick you with a lemon.
10:37 asciilifeform was thinking of transformers and other smaller items. ~100% of my comps is made of 2ndhand parts, for instance.
10:37 mircea_popescu THAT is fine, but also does not scale.
10:37 mircea_popescu there's ~no mechanical moving parts in computer, and guess what -- the few that are, you DO buy new.
10:37 asciilifeform tru!! if i needed 10,000,001 -- would be stuck paying the chumptax
10:37 mircea_popescu or are your fans 2nd hand also.
10:37 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: my toothbrush ain't 2ndhand either!11
10:38 mircea_popescu yes but circumstances of two kinds overlap to dazzle and confuse your eye.
10:38 mircea_popescu the relevant part in the fan is the movement, not the intimacy.
10:38 asciilifeform would mircea_popescu describe the chassis of boat as 'moving part' ?
10:38 mircea_popescu and, to a much larger degree in the car than in the fan. and to a larger still in the boat than in the car.
10:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes!
10:39 mircea_popescu we already had this thread last week, but you got it like duck gets wet. the boat hull IS a moving part, and it is moving in such a way to make plastic ~useless.
10:39 asciilifeform per my current (nonexpert) conception, it's a fiberglass shell, that is either broken or whole
10:40 mircea_popescu this is not entirely true. it's either new or ground.
10:40 asciilifeform at any rate, and ought to satisfy mircea_popescu , i dun buy machines i have nfi how to drive, i did not buy airplane either.
10:40 BingoBoingo The hull is a friction surface
10:40 mircea_popescu ie, 10k or 10 days away from failure.
10:41 BingoBoingo Like a very hard to change tire
10:42 mircea_popescu the problem with brake pads is that under the heat and shear stress they microcrystallize. this makes them much less useless for their intended purpose, which is abrasion, and for which they'd better stay amorphous. the problem with fiberglass is that under mechanical stress they separate, which then creates fissures and which then is the end.
10:42 mircea_popescu much less useful*
10:42 asciilifeform but if asciilifeform ever ~were~ to buy boat, or plane, it ~would~ be a used one, and will pay for it not only in reichsmarks but millimorts, because new is simply not on the table -- a new, e.g., sailboat thing, may as well be a starship
10:42 BingoBoingo If that's the case buy a motorcycle
10:42 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: i dun particularly need a motorcycle..
10:42 BingoBoingo Low dollars, higher millimorts
10:42 mircea_popescu yes, from a pass/fail perspective brake pad is either broken or isn't. but natura not facit saltus, it gets there through a continuous process. there's no discrete processes above atomic scale.
10:42 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: nagant even cheaper!111
10:43 mircea_popescu asciilifeform buy a few bitcoins and wait a few years.
10:43 mircea_popescu you could afford a boat in $2 btc, yes.
10:43 asciilifeform lol that'd require selling bitcoin!111
10:43 mircea_popescu better than selling micromorts.
10:43 * asciilifeform treats btc as something like the fabled 'write-only memory'
10:43 mircea_popescu it just about is.
10:46 asciilifeform for instance, almost 100% of the btc i ever tx'ed out, was on the dumb alphago bet
10:47 asciilifeform (never bet on any game you haven't rigged yerself!11111)
10:48 asciilifeform probably quite enough at this point to have bought an orlolboat for some cackling 'bay aryan'
10:48 mod6 whats the longest boat trip you've ever taken?
10:49 asciilifeform maybe half a day?
10:49 asciilifeform why
10:49 mod6 i personally have only been on a boat for a day at most.
10:49 mod6 well, i think that it's fun for a day; imagine going port to port for weeks on end. i think it'd get tiring. maybe i'm wrong. *shrug*
10:49 asciilifeform it was enough to establish that asciilifeform is completely immune to sea sickness, for instance.
10:49 phf ha
10:49 mircea_popescu anyway, a word re the "new chump tax drives off the lot loses 10k value" thing : it loses 10k of RESALE value. it does not lose 10k of value, ie, your new car still won't need new shocks just because you drove it off lot.
10:50 mod6 i don't seem to have problems with that either.... at least, i have't had it yet.
10:50 mircea_popescu there's many values. value as a negotiable is different from value as a usable.
10:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: tru
10:50 mircea_popescu "you marry a girl, it loses 10k whoring value right there" is rank nonsense.
10:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: my observation was the the 'warranty' of new item is a very, very expensive thing
10:50 asciilifeform that may or may not be +ev
10:51 mircea_popescu which is why i said don't buy it in the us, cuz yes those people are SO into papers and empty signifiying by now that it's a legitimate problem.
10:51 mircea_popescu but the insanity of one group does not affect the bedrock of reality any.
10:51 asciilifeform getting to where you can buy outside of the reservation is also not phree
10:51 mircea_popescu perhaps. but it's still an open problem how expensive, and it is my estimation you're massively overestimating it.
10:52 asciilifeform it is hard enough to buy massless, teleportable btc, even
10:52 asciilifeform much less physical contraption like boat
10:56 mircea_popescu mod6 it helps immensely if you only take slavegirls along.
10:56 mircea_popescu possibly only thing in nature that actually occupies negative space.
10:57 mod6 ah, i agree. naked girl(s) + boat go hand in hand.
10:57 mircea_popescu nudity is a start, but it's just... people have a bubble, it depends on many things and i suppose is of various types. if you pack them tighter than their bubble is they'll get increasingly pissier.
10:57 mircea_popescu except, well trained slavegirl has opposite effect.
10:58 mircea_popescu this is favoritism!
10:59 mircea_popescu asciilifeform mind that there's two sea sicknesses, also, early and late. though the late is rare.
10:59 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what's the 'late' ?
10:59 mod6 heheh. i can see it though, mircea_popescu
10:59 mircea_popescu sort of migraine-like, seen in the 6th to 12th week.
10:59 asciilifeform sets in after a month..?
11:00 mircea_popescu mostly hits people like fishing boat crews, which is why they never take more than X% noobs no matter what.
11:00 asciilifeform i dun think an orloltron carries 12 wks of food/water
11:00 asciilifeform ( or petrol, for that matter )
11:00 mircea_popescu narrows with exposure.
11:02 asciilifeform while we're on subj of storms at sea -- i admit to having wondered why orlol isn't designing a small sub ( it doesn't need to have gigantic pressure hull, or even ~any maneuvering ability while under -- but only to ride out storms by submerging). afaik it dun get any moar storm-proof than a sub.
11:02 mircea_popescu so basically have your own solitary confinment cell ?
11:03 asciilifeform lol dun have to be solitary, does it
11:03 mircea_popescu they give those out for free, you know, even in your jurisdiction.
11:03 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i dunno you'll be able to find anyone willing to indulge, so in theory not but in practice likely.
11:03 asciilifeform https://archive.hnsa.org/ships/img/kaiten.jpg << probably the sub mircea_popescu was thinking of !111
11:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: funnily enough, i have that part ( if little else ) solved.
11:06 mircea_popescu i dunno man, there's many kinds of people and i dun expect to understand all, but going by observation to date the only reason people even put up (for brief intervals) with the many and significant inconveniences of navigation is access to the sun and the wind and so on.
11:07 asciilifeform nothing keeps the mariner from hanging out on the deck when weather is fine, neh
11:08 asciilifeform ( ww2 sub folx -- certainly did, witness the group photos )
11:08 mod6 i feel like that was once every 3 months though. haha.
11:08 asciilifeform mod6: no ww2 sub was capable of 3 month patrol
11:08 asciilifeform or even close
11:08 asciilifeform you're thinking of today's atomic monsters, mod6
11:09 asciilifeform ( where the 3mo limit is imposed by the practical load of food, and little else )
11:09 mod6 ah, fair point. but i mean, whatever, probably wasn't daily sunning either.
11:09 mircea_popescu asciilifeform what, you are going to have a CONVERTIBLE sub ?
11:09 shinohai asciilifeform must ICO gossipd, everyone is doing it nao! http://archive.is/clQo7
11:09 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: nope, lol
11:10 mircea_popescu i don't get it.
11:10 asciilifeform just one with a topdeck, like (afaik) all of'em
11:10 mircea_popescu you ever been on a sub top deck ?
11:10 mod6 i dunno, if you feel like you wanna live in a submarine, then perhaps its time to gtfo and find a better place.
11:10 mircea_popescu mod6 ^ golden words.
11:10 asciilifeform shinohai: that dun sound like gossipd, sounds moar like http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1490
11:10 mircea_popescu rules to fucking live by, you know, "by the time you feel like you wanna live in a submarine, it's time to gtfo and find a better place."
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11:11 asciilifeform shinohai: ' It can handle chat, audio and video calling, photo/video/file sharing, voice conferences, etc.' << lol! over bitcoin tx?!
11:11 shinohai dat blockchain bloat
11:11 mircea_popescu asciilifeform show me pics with naked chix sunbathing on this submarine deck.
11:11 shinohai (has on chain if I understand correctly)
11:11 phf asciilifeform grew up on russian romantic literature (like the soviet writer jules verne), yearns to live on Nautilus
11:11 mircea_popescu just because a buncha doods are standing uncomfortably on it for five minutes dun mean jack.
11:12 mircea_popescu phf except the soviet writer jules verne later wrote star trek, "how great would it be to sit on your couch watching tv on which they show you some dorks sitting on couch watching tv"
11:13 asciilifeform i thought star dreck was mostly about fucking peculiarly humanoid alien chix
11:13 mircea_popescu they ever fucked ?
11:13 asciilifeform kabuki-style
11:13 * asciilifeform not aficionado
11:13 mircea_popescu afaik it was all about that big screen and the various people gathered around in that livingroom to watch it.
11:14 mircea_popescu lt commander pass the popcorn or what was it.
11:17 * mircea_popescu rather suspects that actually star trek figures principally as the G in that MAGA. it really was the best of times, that worst of times, for all those involved.
11:17 mircea_popescu "bring back that time when ''your job is to watch tv'' actually WORKED."
11:20 phf i have to be honest, i barely read jules verne. i think it's just an incompatible temperament issue, i preferred my romantics to be a bit darker.
11:21 mircea_popescu i preferred twain, but the problem is twain wrote enough for a coupla weeks, verne for a coupla months. every day as a 10yo i'd come home from school, stop at library, buy another jv book an' go read it.
11:22 mircea_popescu then i discovered romania actually had a niche equivalent of the us pulp, spinrad & all, so i moved on to that.
11:22 phf i liked twain, but he was also a touch wholesome. like an older uncle, telling you a yarn, that has a Point to it that you're expected to notice, because the uncle grins every time the point comes up
11:22 mod6 cool
11:23 ben_vulpes phf: ever read any andre norton?
11:23 mircea_popescu to this day my idea of "who can be bothered to read "other americas" or "trainspotting" or you know, watch coffy fightin' crime for the black "homeland" is, 11 yo boy.
11:24 mircea_popescu phf really ? i utterly missed that out. i think to this day. what was the point ?
11:26 phf oh that i don't know, i was 10, so i intentionally avoided learning what the point was, i just had an uneasy sense that it was there
11:26 mircea_popescu ah. who knows.
11:27 mircea_popescu the "uncles" ie uppity aunts don't like it anymore these days, though. too much nigger in it, not to mention a very strong vein of "things are as they are not only because that's how they are but also because that's how tyhey should be".
11:27 mircea_popescu and so the poor kid has allergy to clothes and the black kid to learnin and the injun to sitting still.
11:27 phf funny how that goes
11:28 mircea_popescu kinda why buying the ourdemocracy pantsuit lolboat is such a ridiculous deal. the only thing you know for sure about it is that, "wait a few years, they won't like it anymore".
11:28 mircea_popescu no eternal vocation to socialism.
11:29 phf or as my mom would say "перебесятся..!"
11:30 asciilifeform lolyes
11:30 mircea_popescu mmm... i dun get it ?
11:31 phf which doesn't have a good direct translation. "they will soon stop throwing a tantrum" but the verb is from bes, i.e. old russian word for demon, so kind of like "they will run out of the idiotic and chaotic energy, and will eventually calm down"
11:32 mircea_popescu "voluntary apnea works out until the brain shuts down from lack of oxygen and the stem restarts breathing reflexively" ?
11:32 asciilifeform approx
11:33 phf https://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/Бес#/media/File:Сказка_о_попе_рисунок_Пушкина_crop.jpg << bes illustration
11:33 mircea_popescu kinda the whole story of socialism, as it happens. what the pantsuits are doing is === voluntary apnea, and what happens to them is always "well, you ran out of money, so back to capitalism whore!"
11:33 mircea_popescu phf is it more a la satyr / jp kappa sorta item ?
11:34 asciilifeform more like the kind you exorcise
11:34 mircea_popescu a
11:37 phf apparently from greek pithakos (monkey) through latin foedus (ugly)
11:42 phf goes back to slavic mythology, but i don't know what bes is there. in old slavonic bibles it was used to translate the word "demon"
11:43 mircea_popescu afaik the slavic notion of the devil is muchly indebted to a) the observation of lyssaviri in action and b) the passage about jesus and the herd of pigs. so they mostly understood demons as rabies agents.
11:43 mircea_popescu of course, they don't really have rabies in galilea, but wut-eevars!
11:44 phf yeah, бешентсво, that is rabies, is derived from bes
11:44 mircea_popescu yeah. at the time and in those parts, wolves were a much more serious problem, and correspondingly a much larger part of culture than seen today
11:45 mircea_popescu (both because today's culture is mostly interhuman masturbation and because it has mostly lost the ability to reflect reality.)
11:45 mircea_popescu makes for much better demonography than the southerners had at any rate.
11:48 phf there's though a comedic dimension to the word, by 19th century you had a stereotype of bumbling deacon, the kind of person who would blame "daemons" on personal insignificant follies
11:48 mircea_popescu kinda how folk-whatever goes. "he had the devil in him" ie liked to touch girls between the legs and drank.
11:49 mircea_popescu though the last word from harvard trained Psychologists (!!!) is psychopath, i hear.
11:50 phf из столицы! ему сам царь-батюшка ученую грамоту дал и подписал!
11:51 mircea_popescu :D
11:51 asciilifeform ^
11:52 mircea_popescu yemu sam tsar-batyushka huh.
11:54 mircea_popescu incidentally, people get all excited re the fungi that grow out of ant's heads and change the ant's behaviour etc.
11:55 mircea_popescu however, rabies is a much better example : the virus specifically accumulates in the salivary glands, for the ~purpose~ of being transmitted through bites, and shuts down the deglutition behaviour.
11:55 mircea_popescu a lot more work to change behaviour ~in all mammals!~ than it is to aflict one narrowly defined sort of ant.
11:58 asciilifeform toxoplasmosis comes to mind also
11:58 mircea_popescu you think it makes old women herd cats ?
11:59 asciilifeform i'd be surprised if it worked exactly same in man as in mouse
11:59 asciilifeform iirc is supposed to make victim somewhat less cautious in general
11:59 mircea_popescu myeah. entirely possible.
12:06 BingoBoingo Oh the desperate wishing in anti-reality land https://archive.is/j5kN6
12:06 phf there was a young adult novel about vampires, and i can't remember the title or the author, but it was written by a virologist, had all kinds of trivia about this sort of viral parasites (obviously vampirism was explored from that angle too)
12:07 mircea_popescu did it still make them gay ?
12:08 BingoBoingo Of course it must have. I thought that's what the 1980's in "activism" was about. Vampire disease
12:08 phf i don't think you could get published in america if you were to imply that gayness is biologically viral in nature
12:09 mircea_popescu but you can't sell your vampire story unless everyone in it is very twinky.
12:09 BingoBoingo ^
12:09 mircea_popescu !~google "poz my neg hole"
12:09 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: Urban Dictionary: poz my neg hole: <http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php%3Fterm%3Dpoz%2520my%2520neg%2520hole>; Poz my neg hole . - Whisper: <http://whisper.sh/whispers/050c257a0ee7ec673772920a491dfb03278e43/Poz-my-neg-hole->; poz my neg hole - PbNation: <http://www.pbnation.com/showthread.php%3Ft%3D2342081>
12:10 mircea_popescu phf incidentally, it's a great thing the free world (tm) defeated the soviet union where people couldn't be published for writing things outside of the yemu sam's letters.
12:11 mircea_popescu it's even better that nobody (tm) is even bothered by this, exactly like they weren't in teh self-same soviet union.
12:23 asciilifeform ACHTUNG, PANZERS! preliminary result of http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-18#1672101 is that http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-19#1659220 nao takes <3 sec. which can still be improved further,
12:23 a111 Logged on 2017-06-18 23:30 asciilifeform: and realized, while doing this, that in fact you don't need 2k+2 bits for the karatsuba intermediates, you can do instead of (x0+x1)*(y0+y1) , (x0-x1)*(y0-y1), and then you don't need to propagate carries, but only take absolutevalue and xor the borrows to see if gotta invert the resulting term
12:23 a111 Logged on 2017-05-19 17:22 asciilifeform: in other news, a 4096-bit A**B takes approx 14 seconds (3GHz) .
12:23 asciilifeform because at present the base case of the recursion is L=1 , and probably ought to be 4, or even 8 machinewords;
12:24 phf (500 lines of ada later...)
12:24 asciilifeform and, unrelatedly, karatsuba parallelizes (into 3 forks) without any substantial effort, so can also speed up whatever the bare bone speed ends up being, 3x
12:24 asciilifeform phf: aactually thing got ~shorter~
12:24 asciilifeform i'ma about to post, momentarily,
12:27 asciilifeform >>>>> http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/Zy27g/?raw=true <<<<< ( CAUTION, mod6 , phf , et al ! the invocation syntax has changed !! )
12:28 asciilifeform ^ veeeery prelim. version, i still gotta prove that it worx always and forever.
12:28 asciilifeform also can probably be simplified slightly.
12:28 asciilifeform the 'egyptological' mul has been removed, it is not useful
12:29 asciilifeform also it is almost certainly possible to have less copying in there.
12:33 mod6 nice!
12:33 * mod6 looks
12:33 asciilifeform not as nice as needed
12:33 asciilifeform not yet.
12:34 asciilifeform mod6: if you want to test, keep in mind that you gotta Foo : FZ(Bits) ; now, rather than Foo : FZ;
12:35 asciilifeform in all other respects, same semantics as previously.
12:36 asciilifeform ( you physically cannot have karatsuba or anything of the kind if you cannot make FZs of several sizes. however the F remains, it is still impermissible to involve FZs of variant bitnesses in any arithmetical operation when invoking . )
12:37 asciilifeform likewise 'bitness' of an FZ refers solely to the number of bits available in it, and does NOT and never will depend on their ~contents~ ( unlike non-fixed bignumatrons )
12:38 asciilifeform but keep in mind mod6 et al that where before you had package ALU is new FFA(Width => Width, Word => OS.Machine_Word); you will now have, e.g., package ALU is new FFA(Word => OS.Machine_Word);
12:38 asciilifeform ^ this oughta suffice, for whoever wants to try.
12:42 BingoBoingo !~ud pajama boy
12:42 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: pajama boy :: An insufferable Man-Child. About as threatening as Michael Cera and so nerdy he could guest-host on an unwatched MSNBC show. The purpose of Pajama Boy is not to get people to buy health insurance, but to get a rise out of more powerful personas. [ex:] Pajama Boy is an insufferable Man-Child probably reading The Bell Jar and looking forward to a hearty Christmas meal of stuffed tofurkey. If (2 more messages)
12:43 trinque scam; I don't think you can stuff a tofurkey
12:43 asciilifeform mod6: interestingly, there is veeeeery little improvement so far, http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-23#1660607 turns into 17.7 sec !!
12:43 a111 Logged on 2017-05-23 18:39 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-19#1659228 turns into 20.5s.
12:43 asciilifeform base case definitely should not be 1.
12:43 trinque http://vegweb.com/sites/default/files/styles/recipe_large/public/recipe/images/tofurkey2.jpg?itok=E92IW1jt << ah gross, I take it back
12:44 deedbot http://qntra.net/2017/06/georgia-special-election-demonstrates-continued-erosion-of-fake-news-influence-in-us/ << Qntra - Georgia Special Election Demonstrates Continued Erosion Of Fake News Influence In US
12:44 asciilifeform ( 8192bit exponentiation: ~10min with egyptological mul; 20.5s was with first-grade mul; 17.7 with karatsuba posted today )
↖
12:45 mod6 <+asciilifeform> mod6: if you want to test, keep in mind that you gotta Foo : FZ(Bits) ; now, rather than Foo : FZ; << good to note. thanks
12:45 asciilifeform the INFURIATING thing is that, just as with the addition/subtraction carry bit (last month's thread), the compiler DOES NOT give us portable access to the upper word of MUL reg,reg
12:46 asciilifeform so we end up having to do FOUR multiplications !! and buncha additions, to get it
12:46 asciilifeform ( see procedure W_Mul )
12:46 asciilifeform and yes, one can inline asm it. however the EXPLICIT spec was : NO ASM!!!!!
12:49 mod6 yeah. no sewage in the champagne
12:49 asciilifeform mod6: understand, we're still an entire order of magnitude away from being able to so much as miller-rabin.
12:49 asciilifeform *speedwise
12:49 mod6 ya.
12:53 mod6 <+asciilifeform> but keep in mind mod6 et al that where before you had package ALU is new FFA(Width => Width, Word => OS.Machine_Word); you will now have, e.g., package ALU is new FFA(Word => OS.Machine_Word); << thanks for this too
12:54 asciilifeform so far this has been a quite depressing exercise
12:55 asciilifeform in that i still do not know if the problem can even be solved satisfactorily.
12:55 mod6 depressing because 17.7 seconds?
12:55 asciilifeform mod6: understand, that translates into a YEAR or two of 4096bit rsa keygenning time.
12:55 asciilifeform at best.
12:56 mod6 i do not think this is depressing, more ~expected. we're doing things typically in crystal way up above where normally executed.
12:56 asciilifeform ( not to mention ~worthless for mircea_popescu's prize-problem of 'pure rsa link b/w 2 machines' )
12:56 mod6 so, there might be some optimization to be done (perhaps?) once we all grok the implementation.
12:57 asciilifeform mod6: i mentioned all of the ones i could think of -- larger base case ( trivially necessary ), and parallelized recursing ( unacceptable in the msdos port, or on single-cored machines of whatever type, however )
12:58 mod6 yeah, don't let it get you down. all in good time.
13:00 asciilifeform main thing nuking the speed is the W_Mul thing and the fact that we copy EVERY split. the latter is not avoidable given as we ban pointers
13:00 asciilifeform the former is also afaik going nowhere.
13:04 mod6 you mean, storing the halfwords isn't going anywhere?
13:04 mod6 in W_Mul ?
13:05 asciilifeform doing FIVE ( yes, it's five ) machine muls, in there, and 5 machine adds ( instead of motherfucking ZERO ) JUST TO GET THE UPPER WORD of word*word mul, is not.
↖
13:06 asciilifeform not to mention the shift and AND in the bottomhw/tophw subs
13:06 asciilifeform this is all because compiler is maliciously retarded
13:06 asciilifeform ( or, charitably, because ada committee could not rely on ALL cpu having ability to return top word of mul, or even HAVING an iron mul )
13:07 mod6 fair enough.
13:08 asciilifeform also gotta understand what the F in 'ffa' means. it means that N**2 takes exactly same time as N**N
↖
13:08 asciilifeform there are NO best-cases, or worst-cases.
13:09 asciilifeform so there is no handwave away, 'average case will be better'. there IS no average case distinct from the others here.
13:09 mod6 *nod*
13:23 asciilifeform mod6, phf , et al -- see if you grasp how the thing worx.
13:25 asciilifeform ( oh, typo in comment : '-- J1 := Remaining J of Y' of course oughta be '-- Y1 := Remaining J of Y' )
13:26 asciilifeform pleeez, folx, write in re typos, or any item that is unclear ( unclear is in itself a bug in critical code )
13:29 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/06A440A299DFAC49B901A7AC5546ADD656BFEBF0914010F1F0983B5481A4BA94 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1334...8633 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.0.64 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.0.64 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US)
13:29 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/1882442C346E34C73069FB7ED55D952BCF5B7B1E2FF7FAB9C4337FD173C75180 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1334...8633 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.0.65 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.0.65 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US)
13:29 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/4243CD67258D732BF7B2965A06839BDBB5CED0F8AE16B34FC085874FE89A4396 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1334...8633 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.229.139 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.229.139 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US)
13:29 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/357944F7083AA4DBA3BB8A7147F19D7F0C299F546964111FC9D2BEB093DDC815 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1334...8633 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.231.115 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.231.115 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US)
13:29 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/4243CD67258D732BF7B2965A06839BDBB5CED0F8AE16B34FC085874FE89A4396 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1021...8907 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '74.45.229.139 (ssh-rsa key from 74.45.229.139 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown US)
13:43 asciilifeform wb mircea_popescu
13:43 mircea_popescu ty ty
13:44 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo lulzy montana "the referendum" on ourdemocracy.
13:44 mircea_popescu also re "small cars", apparently fiat actually makes a THREE CYLINDER car
13:55 mod6 <+asciilifeform> mod6, phf , et al -- see if you grasp how the thing worx. << will continue to try to grok this thing.
13:55 BingoBoingo three cylinder engines are not that uncommon
13:56 BingoBoingo Kubota has a rather popular 3-cylinder diesel ~25-ish horsepower but lots of torque for the small holder who wants to deep rip their plot
13:56 mod6 this is outside the spec, but just as an experiment, what kinda timings do we get if you were to do inline asm for the W_Mul & Karatsuba procedures? is this worth doing?
13:57 asciilifeform mod6: i haven't tried and have 0 intention of
13:58 asciilifeform it defeats entire point of the entire thing.
13:58 mod6 okay
~ 20 minutes ~
14:19 asciilifeform mod6: ffa has to stay an algebraic, if you will, whole, or you cannot prove that it works.
14:21 asciilifeform likewise, whole thing is 100% cpu arch AND endianity (!) independent, having any asm in the mix would ruin this.
14:23 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: what does 'ffa' stand for?
14:24 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: finite field arithmetic
14:24 ben_vulpes huh, i don't understand this comment then: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-06-21#1673195
14:24 a111 Logged on 2017-06-21 17:08 asciilifeform: also gotta understand what the F in 'ffa' means. it means that N**2 takes exactly same time as N**N
14:24 mod6 asciilifeform: ok, i understand.
14:25 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: ben_vulpes: f also 'fixed' !1111
14:25 asciilifeform grr
14:26 asciilifeform ... just read it, probably will make moar sense than my explaining it ( and if this is not so, then it is not written correctly )
14:28 ben_vulpes ok ok!
14:32 mod6 X.Z'Length; -- Words in each operand << does 'Length count from 0?
14:32 asciilifeform sure does, see ada spec
14:32 mod6 ok, thx
14:32 asciilifeform however we don't have 0length Zs
14:32 asciilifeform ( see ffa.ads )
~ 31 minutes ~
15:04 mod6 asciilifeform: have a minute to walk through the splitting of the numbers?
15:05 mod6 ok
15:06 mod6 L : constant Positive := X.Z'Length; -- Words in each operand << let's say that L gets assigned to 7. (since we start at 0, we end on 7 as overall length)
15:07 mod6 K : constant Positive := (L + 1) / 2; << Now, K gets assigned to 4. (7 + 1) / 2 = 4
15:08 mod6 J : constant Positive := L - K; << J gets assigned to 3. 7 - 4 = 3.
15:11 mod6 X0.Z(X0.Z'First .. K) := X.Z(X.Z'First .. K); << X0 will be assigned to X.Z[0] -> X.Z[4] ? or is the 'X.Z'First .. K' part exclusive? where it'll only do X.Z[0]->[3] ?
~ 16 minutes ~
15:28 BingoBoingo In other lols, which part is inclusive now? https://archive.is/ppJtM
15:28 BingoBoingo *party
15:30 ben_vulpes holy doodle, my tunnel under steve's wall just broke the surface!
15:31 * ben_vulpes shucks jumpsuit, runs
15:42 BingoBoingo Congrats ben_vulpes
15:47 mod6 asciilifeform: anyway, im just trying to figure out if this splits the number in a balanced manner or we're off by one.
~ 20 minutes ~
16:08 mod6 "A'First
16:08 mod6 A'First denotes the lower bound of the first index range; its type is the corresponding index type." << http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/12rm/html/RM-3-6-2.html#I1941
16:09 mod6 So, in this case, it seems that we start at 0.
16:10 mod6 and my guess is that X.Z(X.Z'First .. K) would be assigning 5 words where K = 4.
16:12 mod6 X1.Z(X1.Z'First .. J) := X.Z(K + 1 .. X.Z'Last); << Further, it seems that here, we'd be setting (K + 1) .. X.Z'Last ; so, 5 .. 7. And assigning that to X1.Z(0 .. 3).
16:15 mod6 which, i guess you would be assigning a null word then, also. not sure if that was intended.
16:16 mod6 well, not assigning, just not assigning the 4th word in X1.Z; where 4th == X1.Z[3]
~ 15 minutes ~
16:31 asciilifeform ACHTUNG s.nsa customers!! all outstanding-through-today FUCKGOATS have shipped
16:33 asciilifeform mod6: look at ffa.ads
16:33 asciilifeform mod6: note, Z : Words(1 .. WLength) := (others => 0);
16:33 asciilifeform so you can see that the words are indexed from 1
16:34 asciilifeform ergo foo.Z(foo.Z'First .. 4) gives you the lower 4 words, for instance
16:34 asciilifeform ( which is WHY i numbered'em from 1 !! )
16:35 asciilifeform the 'index arrays from whatever' thing in ada is genius, it abolished the megatonnes of increments and decrements that litter c proggies and inevitably lead to 'fencepost' eggog
16:36 asciilifeform likewise the ability to refer to Foo'First and Foo'Last -- arrays know their size; and taking a slice from a nonexistent portion behaves SANELY (i.e. is a slice of size 0, and it is legal to assign another array to it, this is a null op)
16:37 mod6 X1.Z(X1.Z'First .. J) := X.Z(K + 1 .. X.Z'Last); << what about this one where J = 3?
16:37 asciilifeform what's L in your case, mod6 ?
16:37 mod6 7
16:37 asciilifeform work out the arithmetic
16:37 asciilifeform (7 + 1) / 2 == 4
16:38 asciilifeform 7 - 4 == 3
16:38 mod6 i did that, see above.
16:38 asciilifeform 4 cuts the obvious way
16:38 asciilifeform 3 cuts into (3 + 1) / 2 == 2 and 3 - 2 = 1
16:38 asciilifeform 2 cuts into 1 and 1; 1 is the basecase
16:38 mod6 K=4,J=3 when there are 8 words in FZ.
16:38 asciilifeform nope
16:39 asciilifeform if k=4 -> j= 4
16:39 asciilifeform iron.
16:39 asciilifeform ( 8 - 4 = 4 )
16:39 mod6 (18:31) <+mod6> X.Z'Length; -- Words in each operand << does 'Length count from 0?
16:39 mod6 (18:32) <+asciilifeform> sure does, see ada spec
16:39 asciilifeform length is the count of items in the array
16:40 mod6 so i figure if my X.Z is 8 words long, L = 7
16:40 asciilifeform mno
16:40 mod6 lol, this is why i asked first!
16:40 asciilifeform 'from 0' means that it is permissible to have an array of length 0 ( not in ffa ! but in ada )
16:40 asciilifeform an array of length 0 has ~zero~ elements, not one
16:41 asciilifeform and operations performed on it become no-ops
16:44 mod6 so to work it out:
16:44 mod6 L=8 then
16:44 asciilifeform carry on mod6
16:45 mod6 K=(8+1)/2 == 4, J =(8-4) == 4
16:46 mod6 guess that clears that up. my apologies to TMSR~ for the spam.
16:47 mod6 <+asciilifeform> ACHTUNG s.nsa customers!! all outstanding-through-today FUCKGOATS have shipped << cool
16:47 asciilifeform mod6: it is absolutely imperative that all future users of 'p' understand exactly how this thing worx
16:47 trinque entirely worthwhile, for when one of us is next going through the Ada march.
16:47 asciilifeform so in that sense it is not at all spam
17:00 mod6 huffers got flashed -96%. HEH
~ 1 hours 23 minutes ~
18:23 shinohai !~later tell BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/IY3pD/?raw=true
18:23 jhvh1 shinohai: The operation succeeded.
18:24 shinohai lol mod6 caught it same time I did, was busy writing up the lulz and didn't see your msg.
~ 1 hours 1 minutes ~
19:26 mod6 :]
19:39 mircea_popescu !~later tell hanbot http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/jMQOL/?raw=true
19:39 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: The operation succeeded.
~ 1 hours 24 minutes ~
21:03 ben_vulpes first full day at the helm of gentoo workstation while rough, was a marked improvement over the previous wheelbarrow's spiky handles. many thanks to asciilifeform and trinque.
21:04 mircea_popescu o hey
21:07 ben_vulpes hey hey!
21:09 shinohai I'm so accustomed to it now I can't imagine going back to my old ways.
~ 27 minutes ~
21:36 trinque pretty cool
~ 15 minutes ~
21:51 mod6 i like mine.
21:55 mod6 overall fvwm works great, and opera works pretty well.
21:59 asciilifeform neato ben_vulpes !
21:59 asciilifeform and congrats.
~ 1 hours 48 minutes ~
23:48 mircea_popescu meanwhile in teh shower, http://68.media.tumblr.com/9734ba893ca17c3f021b3de7ac9803a2/tumblr_oqtz43iXYU1vhnnuho1_1280.jpg
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