Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-09-08 | 2016-09-10 → ↓
00:10 BingoBoingo !!up boolcrap
00:10 deedbot boolcrap voiced for 30 minutes.
~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~
01:15 pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537558 << as you'll note in http://www.contravex.com/2016/02/29/waiting-for-taleb/ , taleb isn't here for ~cultural~ reasons. not usgkultur either, but his proudly flashed mediterranean levantine orthodox roots. boeck has as much influence on this as antelope have on italian soda fizziness.
01:15 a111 Logged on 2016-09-08 18:58 asciilifeform: boeck et al is to reduce the risk that taleb shows up here. etc
01:17 pete_dushenski blaming the 'atmosphere' on the modest (but non-zero!) number of folks walking through the #trilema door is akin to blaming 'society' that you can't get an erection. it's not the talking head's fault that your wife's ugly.
01:18 pete_dushenski anyways, enjoyable thread there.
01:25 pete_dushenski strange market forces observation of the day : moving guys (ie. pure muscle) command the same going rate as qualified plumbers (ie. skilled trade). perhaps both are equally scarce relative to demand, or else the mover's rates just appear higher due to higher-than-plumber overhead (trucks, mechanics, garages, etc.). either way, it's always fun to figure out how the cookie crumbles.
01:27 pete_dushenski both are ~$60/hr if anyone cares to compare their geography at home
01:29 pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537331 << as with pack of gum, it's not a bad little psychological tactic, this. gets (l)users to experience the pringles-esque "once you pop you can't stop" phenomenon.
01:29 a111 Logged on 2016-09-08 16:34 asciilifeform: http://i-cdn.phonearena.com/images/articles/256205-thumb/AirPods-header.jpg << is it just me or do these look like... smokes ?
01:31 pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537375 << there are a few references on contravex as well. eg. http://www.contravex.com/2014/11/24/bitcoin-year-in-review-2014-the-price-went-down-so-we-prepared-for-war/#footnote_8_1928
01:31 a111 Logged on 2016-09-08 17:14 PeterL: speaking of books, mircea_popescu have you read "The Prince" by Machiavelli? I have been reading it and for some reason it made me think of you (though I expect you would read it in the original Italian?)
01:31 * pete_dushenski shamefully read in english.
01:35 pete_dushenski re: taleb, it's also worth noting that way back in 2014 i was ~the sole voice saying that camgirl vids weren't going to turn his crank and bring him here, in the face of "oh but he's still a dude, pete" opposition, no less. whereas alf regularly gets to say "i told you so" whenever another flaw in the shitstack of personal computing is revealed, or mp whenever another usg muppet hoists himself on his own
01:35 pete_dushenski petard, it's a rare treat for yours truly to be able to say as much in this company.
01:36 pete_dushenski obviously, "i told you so" and $5 will buy you coffee. and that it used to be $2 for coffee is neither here nor there.
01:40 pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537430 << das racist
01:40 a111 Logged on 2016-09-08 17:40 asciilifeform: 'Data coming from true random number generators is never 100% random. I am aware of no exceptions. Whitening is required in all cases before the data is suitable for use in cryptography.' << from first link
01:45 pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537513 << hell, they embrace it. their cars are ~the weirdest on the planet. some credit Béla Barényi with the original vw beetle design, which obviously also spawned the legendary porsche 911.
01:45 a111 Logged on 2016-09-08 18:37 mircea_popescu: at least hungarians know they've been cursed with stupid.
01:46 pete_dushenski http://archive.is/4BFtG << history of hungarian microcars.
01:47 pete_dushenski http://archive.is/cUEZI << history of hungarian soviet-era cars
01:48 pete_dushenski huh, archive.is missed some pics on the 2nd link. here the original then : http://jalopnik.com/these-were-your-car-options-in-hungary-under-the-soviet-1545678388
01:49 pete_dushenski nvm that jalopnik is a gawker property. if you stick with their hungarian writers, particularly peter orosz and mate petrany, you'll learn some mega-nifty and uber-arcane shit.
01:50 pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537529 << and how would mr. "i'd love to wank off but the gurlz would be too angry" know this exaclty ? little birdie whispered in his ear ? :p
01:50 a111 Logged on 2016-09-08 18:49 mircea_popescu: gavin is ~a used cumsock.
01:55 pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-08#1537575 << this ties in very neatly the never-ending thread about the meaning and definition of intelligence, particularly the angle about 'intelligent' being best used to describe an individual's actions ex post facto. injun is a genius only for as long as his world is of low complexity. when whitey comes over and opens pandora's box on his ass, complexity explodes and
01:55 a111 Logged on 2016-09-08 19:04 asciilifeform: british soldiers carting in convoy of rotgut barrels to distribute to australian abos, betcha, also said 'drunks' choices!'
01:55 pete_dushenski overwhelming majority of redmen are steamrolled by its sheer (liquid) mass.
01:56 pete_dushenski so, like design, intelligence... depends.
01:57 pete_dushenski !~ seen mats
01:57 jhvh1 pete_dushenski: I have not seen mats.
02:03 pete_dushenski http://archive.is/rK7hA << speaking of history and taleb, his latest aphorism. i can dig it. (for non-link-clickers : read more ancient history of private lives)
02:15 pete_dushenski and now, your moment of zen https://youtu.be/2ZmM-2gj5Gc
02:15 * pete_dushenski to take a few long blinks
~ 18 minutes ~
02:34 Framedragger mircea_popescu: yeah, agreed, will remove!
02:35 Framedragger will make it so previous links on e.g. your site don't break; just that default links generated when clicking don't include the thing
~ 1 hours 30 minutes ~
04:05 Framedragger omg attempting https on trilema.com gives common name = server1.nigger.com, email = ssl@server1.nigger.com -- l0l0l.
04:16 Framedragger http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160909/#243 << mkay fix'd
04:16 scriba Logged on 2016-09-09: [06:35:04] <Framedragger> will make it so previous links on e.g. your site don't break; just that default links generated when clicking don't include the thing
~ 2 hours 33 minutes ~
06:50 mircea_popescu incidentally asciilifeform mod6 trinque et all : what would you think about adding a p2p client to V ? it'd be like a daemon which listens for connections from peers and maintains lists of pressables.
↖ ↖
06:51 mircea_popescu we could make it work on udp, and initiate sessions through encrypting a large prime to the destination's key or some equivalent implementation, so we get to test alf's new-internet-order ideas also.
07:00 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160909/#23 << yes mod6 but to clarify : "one button" refers to the situation where the user already has a trusted copy of V, and a .sig directory populated as per his taste. these are part of the definition of identity, and going forward can and should be assumed present.
07:00 scriba Logged on 2016-09-09: [00:55:24] <mod6> This hypothetical solution, even if it does work, wouldn't make it a one-button-push solution. Why? A person would need to get V + V.sig, verify, create a .wot dir, sync the patches + seals, manually or automatically, press the tree, then navigate into the pressed tree, and then `make`.
07:00 mircea_popescu "who are you ?" "i am my V and .sig machine" is a perfectly fine response.
07:15 Framedragger OT, http://www.smbc-comics.com/comic/teach-a-man-to-fish
~ 49 minutes ~
08:05 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538037 << lel what has mircea_popescu been drinking...?
08:05 a111 Logged on 2016-09-09 10:50 mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform mod6 trinque et all : what would you think about adding a p2p client to V ? it'd be like a daemon which listens for connections from peers and maintains lists of pressables.
08:06 asciilifeform why not also build it into not only gossipd but a shortwave antenna, a kalash, a cement mixer, stradivari, and van gogh...
08:06 asciilifeform a lynx, a manticore, a leucrota...
08:07 mircea_popescu hm ?
08:09 asciilifeform separation of concerns?
08:10 asciilifeform vs 'hang shit off side of rifle.'
08:10 mircea_popescu you don't live in emacs i take it ?
08:10 asciilifeform nope.
08:11 asciilifeform though i have at least one in front of me at all times
08:11 asciilifeform i've he panel wall, recall.
08:11 asciilifeform *the
08:11 mircea_popescu anyway. this "separation of concerns" objection would have a lot more meat on its imaginary bones if there actually eixsted any sort of gossipd. as there doesn't, the objection has no legs to stand on.
08:12 Framedragger why not have p2p client for stuff like this but which would be agnostic to internals of V, and separate from V? it can use V's .wot, tho
08:12 mircea_popescu the concerns can be separated... latger.
08:12 mircea_popescu Framedragger gotta start somewhere. but yes, you intuit correctly, that's where it's headed.
08:13 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if we crash over an island, and have no rifle, it is still unwise to bolt-shit-to-side of the imagined rifle we lack together.
08:13 Framedragger right. wonder if it's any harder to have the p2p part be separate. it can create a local mountpoint which would just be additional folders/files for V to process
08:13 mircea_popescu Framedragger well the whole point is to stop wondering.
08:13 Framedragger asciilifeform: also, talk about increased attack surface / complexity
08:13 Framedragger (but yes it's easy to criticize)
08:13 mircea_popescu most designs suffer a lot of changes when one tries to actually implement them, which is why prototypes exist in the first place.
08:14 Framedragger sure, true.
08:14 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you can't "bolt things" to items that do not exist.
08:14 asciilifeform i did propose that it might ALL come together in the end.
08:14 asciilifeform e.g., gossip and bitcoin.
08:15 asciilifeform not, i must add, as i proggy, but as system.
08:15 mircea_popescu still, you know - most everything extant today started life as a nodule on something else. nothing wrong with this in principle.
08:15 asciilifeform *1 prog
08:15 mircea_popescu eventually they separate, if they do, or the nodule dies off/gets resorbed in the main trunk, or the trunk dies off and the nodule continues it instead, or or or.
08:16 mircea_popescu certainly it is not contemplated here thatg anyone would be forced to run v to get gossipd. heck, i don't even believe such "forcing" would be in principle possible.
08:19 asciilifeform $s light cone
08:19 a111 8 results for "light cone", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=light%20cone
08:20 asciilifeform i did draw this picture once, mircea_popescu .
08:20 asciilifeform and yes, it will happen.
08:20 mircea_popescu on a vapkin!
08:20 asciilifeform 'find my light cone' is an inevitable knob of gossipd.
08:21 * shinohai wonders if asciilifeform has a binder full of napkin drawings in his lab
08:21 mircea_popescu well, the principal difference between gossipd-for-v and gossipd-proper is that v operates on signed matter exclusively ; gossipd-proper operates on unsigned matter exclusively.
08:22 mircea_popescu $up vivas82
08:22 mircea_popescu didja read shinohai 's guide vivas82 ?
08:22 shinohai !!up vivas82
08:22 asciilifeform a gossipd link of degree 1 ( 'private message' in mircea_popescu's version of the sketch ) operates on signed matter
08:22 deedbot vivas82 voiced for 30 minutes.
08:22 mircea_popescu if you sign something, there's no further degrees.
08:23 mircea_popescu third party can check a signature as well as you can.
08:23 asciilifeform third party doesn't see it
08:23 mircea_popescu this is not only a ridiculous hope, but contrary to design principle. the point of gossipd is that he sees.
08:23 mircea_popescu anyway. identity doesn't need signature to be checked. behold :
08:24 vivas82 Thanks.
08:24 mircea_popescu !!rate deedbot 1 How are you gonna check it's really me, bitch ?
08:24 deedbot Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/lylkw/?raw=true
08:24 asciilifeform protocol vs promise.
08:25 asciilifeform only sig is actual protocol.
08:25 mircea_popescu a gossipd that requires me to sign anything is not to any degree interesting.
08:25 mircea_popescu i'll just continue using my current system, because such a gossipd would be an outrageous degradation of everything.
08:26 asciilifeform signs with station key, not royal key
08:26 asciilifeform or your packets are not distinguishable from cosmic noise from pov of my station.
08:26 mircea_popescu it quickly becomes dubious. because a signature permits a certain relationship. whereas gossipd rests on dubious relationships.
08:26 mircea_popescu yeah, they are. much like deedbot distinguishes above.
08:27 asciilifeform deedbot, as it lives on fleanode, is promisetronic.
08:27 mircea_popescu here's the handshake : syn -> 5db1fee4b5703808c48078a76768b155b421b210c0761cd6a5d223f4d99f1eaa -> 1337 -> ack.
08:27 asciilifeform could have been replaced with hitler's 5min ago .
08:28 mircea_popescu you're switching things. the point is that deedbot knows it is really me ; not vice-versa.
08:28 asciilifeform it - aha
08:28 asciilifeform because you decoded.
08:28 mircea_popescu so i signed nothing and yet IT (and only it) could know it was me. this is important.
08:29 mircea_popescu what's more important is that gossipd works like otp : "sure you can decrypt this text mr evil. WHAT would you like it to decrypt to ?"
08:29 mircea_popescu no "you can't decrypt it". but "you can decrypt it, of course. to anything you wish."|
08:30 asciilifeform rsa unfortunately does not give this.
08:30 deedbot http://qntra.net/2016/09/democratic-peoples-republic-of-best-korea-conducts-fifth-nuclear-test/ << Qntra - Democratic People's Republic Of Best Korea Conducts Fifth Nuclear Test
08:30 mircea_popescu it's my considered oppinion it does, if used as above.
08:30 mircea_popescu in any case rsa signatures are contrary to this, however.
08:31 asciilifeform only otp actually creates this effect.
08:31 asciilifeform an rsagram cannot 'decrypt to whatever you want'
08:31 asciilifeform its true key, should it ever turn up, is distinguishable from any other bitstring.
08:31 mircea_popescu the "decrypt to whatever you want" part is not about the rsagram itself, but about the structure of relationships.
08:32 mircea_popescu if you have signed matter, then definite things can be said. otherwise - you need a priest.
08:32 mircea_popescu and a priest will do whatever you want him to do.
08:33 asciilifeform i fully grasp what mircea_popescu wants to accomplish here, but it does not work with his stated mechanism.
08:33 shinohai Priests can withold absolution however
08:33 mircea_popescu you;ll have to go into detail bout that asciilifeform
08:34 asciilifeform didn't we do this before..
08:34 mircea_popescu shinohai we'rte talking from the pov of the lord not the pleb here. priest does exactly as told or else fucks goats in the receptive sense of the term.
08:34 shinohai >.<
08:34 mircea_popescu asciilifeform apparently not profitably.
08:35 asciilifeform a working gossipd must combine two seemingly-contradictory features: 1) friend-or-foe identification on single packet - no such thing as ddos or replay remains possible -- 2) enemy on the wire can learn nothing about relation graph.
08:36 mircea_popescu except a working model of 1 is already both deployed and theoretically understood, as described above.
08:36 asciilifeform there are several ways to cut this knot, but thus far i am not satisfied with any
08:37 mircea_popescu understand, from the fact you observe deedbot has accepted my order you do not know anything other than that - to DEEDBOT it is acceptable. ie, you're uysing a priest. this is fine.
08:37 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: deedbot is not a working model of 1packetron omfg
08:37 mircea_popescu how not ? again. syn -> 5db1fee4b5703808c48078a76768b155b421b210c0761cd6a5d223f4d99f1eaa -> 1337 -> ack.
08:37 asciilifeform it does NOT follow the nothing-to-allcomers principle.
08:38 mircea_popescu it does. because if it doesn't know me, it can't answer to my syn now can it.
08:39 mircea_popescu i'd say it's actually "nothing to all comers" guaranteedly, you can't break this even if you want to.
08:39 asciilifeform it could if you were both sybils today.
08:39 mircea_popescu wait what ? who "both"
08:39 asciilifeform both replaced with muppets.
08:39 asciilifeform deedbot and mircea_popescu in this example.
08:39 mircea_popescu a network between a and b who have BOTH been replaced ?
08:40 mircea_popescu this is lulzy.
08:40 asciilifeform from my pov.
08:40 mircea_popescu ah, with an invariant c. so how do you break it ? or what ?
08:40 asciilifeform what's there to break?
08:41 mircea_popescu i just dunno what you're saying starting 8 lines ago. "<asciilifeform> it could if you were both sybils today."
08:41 asciilifeform but, to briefly rewind, there are two wholly separate concerns here and should be drawn separately.
08:42 asciilifeform one is to banish mosquitoes from the atmosphere. for which -- single-packet 'man or mosquito' litmus is required.
08:43 asciilifeform other - is the mechanism described in mircea_popescu's sketch.
08:43 mircea_popescu do this again and do it properly, without reference.
08:43 asciilifeform which
08:43 mircea_popescu <asciilifeform> but, to briefly rewind, << and following. static linking, not dynamic linking. your "the mechanism described in mircea_popescu's sketch." symbol is not acceptabru.
08:44 asciilifeform what, lel, let's restate whole thing..?
08:44 Framedragger http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160909/#343 << isn't the reason it's currently able to do that (send otps to check) is because it's not interesting enough so parties flood it with bogus requests and generally DoS it to shreds?
08:44 scriba Logged on 2016-09-09: [12:36:29] <mircea_popescu> except a working model of 1 is already both deployed and theoretically understood, as described above.
08:44 Framedragger hence why http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160909/#346
08:44 scriba Logged on 2016-09-09: [12:37:26] <asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: deedbot is not a working model of 1packetron omfg
08:44 asciilifeform Framedragger has it.
08:45 mircea_popescu in a word, no.
08:45 mircea_popescu how would you send otps to check to a person you don't know ?
08:45 mircea_popescu it does currently extend the courtesy of replying to unknowns, but this is not required.
08:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform well yes restate the whole thing. apparently there's a knot somewhere.
08:46 asciilifeform enemy controls not only fleanode but most large isp, so it can send whatever string wherever.
08:46 mircea_popescu so ?
08:46 Framedragger ah, you mean that it could restrict sending challenges to gpg identities that it *already* knows about (l1 / l2 / whatever)?
08:46 mircea_popescu you still can't answer, for lack of a way to form your answer.
08:46 mircea_popescu Framedragger i mean it already does this lol. necessarily.
08:47 mircea_popescu how would it send a challende encrypted to a key it does not have ?
08:47 asciilifeform so it is trivial exercise to determine where deedbot lives and - at least - syn flood it.
08:47 Framedragger mircea_popescu: pull the key. which it effectively does with the `register` command
08:47 asciilifeform syn flood is challenge enough, because tcp is braindamaged.
08:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that is an orthogonal concern which entirely does not belong in this discussion.
08:47 * Framedragger contemplates a PoC `register` attack on deedbot
08:47 mircea_popescu Framedragger but it dfoesn't HAVE to do that.
08:48 asciilifeform it is unfortunately not (yet) a separable concern.
08:48 Framedragger mircea_popescu: sure, that i admit.
08:48 mircea_popescu just because owner currently automated a hole into the ship doesn't mean that hole doesn't come with a pre-made hatch.
08:49 asciilifeform see, right now we have 'cheat' in the sense that fleanode allows mircea_popescu to manually control access to deedbot .
08:49 Framedragger then the argument does admittedly slide a little: yes okay, this is great that it can't be DoS'd that easily when the time comes; and yet it still has to parse multiple packets before it determines that hey, i don't know this fingerprint.
08:49 mircea_popescu why multiple ?
08:49 asciilifeform it could easily stop tomorrow.
08:49 mircea_popescu "syn".
08:50 asciilifeform Framedragger seems to grasp my line of thought.
08:50 mircea_popescu what, you want him to represent you nao ?
08:51 Framedragger hm there *is* https://tools.ietf.org/html/rfc7413 for "send data in packet with syn flag already", in truth; haven't touched it tho
08:51 asciilifeform i dun expect other folks to do my work in my place, no.
08:52 mircea_popescu Framedragger aha.
08:52 asciilifeform Framedragger: tcp is evil.
08:52 mircea_popescu sure ; also kinda besides teh point.
08:52 asciilifeform even if you stuff crypto sig into packet1
08:52 Framedragger is rfc7413 even supported by any tcp stack tho? (inb4 all tcp stacks must die!1 [not disagreeing in principle])
08:52 mircea_popescu (not to mention - you brought it up, entirely ungermane to the discussion, so you can't now detrimentally rely on it.)
08:52 asciilifeform it still has plaintext seq nums
08:52 Framedragger suresure.
08:53 asciilifeform and unsigned terminations
08:53 asciilifeform and ergo must die.
08:54 asciilifeform let's briefly gedankenexperiment:
08:54 asciilifeform say we gotta leave fleanode.
08:55 asciilifeform because it, say, burns down at last.
08:55 mircea_popescu how about we don't mix discussions of prototyping with discussion of random opsec challenges.
08:55 asciilifeform sketch the parachute here plox
08:55 mircea_popescu nobody afaik starts discussion of new car model with "Suppose the islamists invade our plant"
08:56 mircea_popescu what, you're going to make a tank ? "new from mercedes. six gun ports."
08:56 asciilifeform this digression is unfortunately needed. because it exposes the point i was making earlier.
08:56 asciilifeform fleanode gives us a cheap plastic imitation of gossipd currently.
08:56 mircea_popescu if we have to leave freenode before gossipd is ready we'll reimplement ircd.
08:56 asciilifeform reimplement in what sense ?
08:57 mircea_popescu in the sense of how we implemented log bots that work, on the basis of whatever was there before, which apparently didn't work, or at least didn't work as well or w/e.
08:58 asciilifeform and it will run on what? six dudes' servers ?
08:58 mircea_popescu no, you must be thinking of freenode.
08:58 mircea_popescu which, literally, six dude's servers, half of which provided by nsa.
08:58 asciilifeform whose locations will somehow remain unknown to enemy, hdds - unstolen , packets - unmangled ?
08:58 mircea_popescu we'll just use our servers in ft meade, what.
08:59 mircea_popescu get some of that lulzy "we know it's here but we can't turn it off because red tape" bonus going on.
08:59 asciilifeform i admit that i always liked that part.
08:59 asciilifeform though iirc this was in another mircea_popescutronic production
08:59 deedbot http://trilema.com/2016/industria-argentina-or-my-life-among-the-tribal-savages/ << Trilema - Industria Argentina, or my life among the tribal savages.
↖
09:00 * asciilifeform digs in hungrily
09:00 mircea_popescu but all this stuff aside, back to the important point here : the "gossipd-like" thing contemplated for moving signed material (ie, v stuff) around is very much a different beast from the actual gossipd, which doesn't work on signed material ; presumably doesn't work on tcp etc.
09:00 mircea_popescu now, taking a tiny incremental step by providing redundancy for v while at the same time trying a udp implementation si a very sensible move at this juncture.
09:00 mircea_popescu at least, it so appears to me.
09:01 mircea_popescu (redundancy for v - meant strictly in the sense of, an alternative to moving tarball by hand)
09:01 PeterL what keeps you from moving a signed message thorugh gossipd?
09:01 asciilifeform ^
09:01 mircea_popescu that i don't intend to sign anything.
09:01 Framedragger semi-orthogonal (but not too orthogonal): ditching the conceptual level for a second and thinking about mundane reality, would a new transport layer even *work* given current internet infrastructure? there are problems with ICMP traffic on some ISPs (sure, ISPs should die anyway, and esp. those i hear you say.) this can be tested to some extent, hm.
09:01 mircea_popescu signatgures have their utility. they have been (perhaps deliberately, in any case stupidly) misused by the usg.cypherpunk "movement".
09:01 Framedragger s/transport layer/transport layer protocol/
09:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: you signed vpatch. can as readily broadcast it via gossip as via fleanode etc.
09:02 mircea_popescu Framedragger i dunno, it's pretty nebulous
09:02 mircea_popescu asciilifeform vpatch, yes. this line, no.
09:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aha
09:02 mircea_popescu it's not that i'm against signatures or anything of the sort. it's just that i understand their domain. an item is signed when the auctorial intention is "for this to stand now and forever to any and all who may come".
09:03 mircea_popescu this is pointedly not what gossipd does.
09:03 asciilifeform mircea_popescu-signed vpatch can be made known over whatever medium. shortwave, if he likes.
09:03 mircea_popescu gossipd does "for friends ears only". and the only way to make sure that can't happen, si by signing things. because once signed, they're definitionally for everyone equally well.
09:04 mircea_popescu in short, i oppose the socially destructuring, anti elitist and equalitarian nature of signatures.
09:05 asciilifeform much of what i've been doing in the mathematics room for past year has been to try to give this frying pan a handle.
09:05 asciilifeform yes, pan is hot. and hand - made of meat.
09:05 mircea_popescu myeah.
09:06 Framedragger btw wouldn't "nothing signed" gossipd reality actually be not "only among chosen clique" but rather "only chosen among clique [so, okay, not for all] plus whoever listens to internet backbone including all teh agencies"?
09:06 Framedragger (i am aware that proper gossipd doesn't have to run over internet)
09:06 mircea_popescu Framedragger if you're not connected, how do you distinguish what was said from what might have been said from what wasn't actually said ?
09:06 mircea_popescu that's the otp-likeness contemplated, you know the place where this is discussed in the logs ?
09:06 Framedragger mircea_popescu: statistical models? sure, no *guarantee*.
09:07 Framedragger i think i actually remember it
09:07 mircea_popescu statistical models only work on statistical data. ie, flat.
09:07 mircea_popescu this isn't flat.
09:07 mircea_popescu it may be flattenable, and a large part of what we'll be doing is explore those graphs etc, but atm this is premature, we don't even have a prototype.
09:08 mircea_popescu (note however that "statistical models" are so horrible in doing simple things such as "election outcome" prediction as to not lend much credence to this theory.)
09:08 Framedragger maybe. and i agree that without prototype difficult to talk of this anyway
09:09 mircea_popescu but, importantly, statistics works on datapoints - which are each as much a datapoint as all the others ! this is major.
09:09 mircea_popescu in fact, it's even aware of this ; and it has some (primitive, axe hewn) methods to use the proper space to "improve" its data
09:09 mircea_popescu for instance by rejecting outliers in a set. what you're doing then, in proper terms, is saying "since we have all this space left in the hierarchy cube, how about we use it to improve the dataset while still pretending it's just a sheet"
09:10 mircea_popescu so you take a few points out.
09:13 Framedragger yes this is lulzy and a disservice and i agree the reputation is not insanely great.., so to speak.
09:13 Framedragger mircea_popescu: how about i (an nsa employee, say) just make a filter which grabs all observed gossipd traffic (packet timing or w/e, and if it's an actually new transmission protocol, then supreme joy is me) and send it for further analysis. i shall assume that while it's not certain which messages are legit and which are not, the offending t3rr0rist group is too lazy to transmit proper false positives to provide noise,
09:14 Framedragger besides, they'd get confused themselves, what with deliberately no message authenticity; and we shall have a good time. am i stretching here?
09:14 mircea_popescu Framedragger so you do everyone the favour of taking out the lazy "terrorist" groups ? thank you ?
09:14 mircea_popescu the point here isn't to make idiots more powerful.
09:15 mircea_popescu i dunno when or why the prevailing notion of "software" and "technology", at least in english and its dominions, became "it is for to make ordinary people (ie, rank imbeciles) like gods!"
09:15 Framedragger and gossipd without any auth whatsoever wouldn't really be that? in all honesty, i should reread the spec, which is probably outdated, and log search sucks, fml
09:15 mircea_popescu it... isn't. it fucking isn't. the point of technology is the complete and utter oppression of idiots.
09:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: probably when the prometeus dude stole the fire?
09:16 asciilifeform was when.
09:16 mircea_popescu not really. there's no record that he went and gave it to retards.
09:16 asciilifeform 'ooh, fire, now we are godz!1111'
09:16 Framedragger (or so the myth is interpreted anyway right?)
09:16 mircea_popescu on the contrary - he stole it to the sort of retards who'd pick the large pile of bones skins and fat
09:16 mircea_popescu and gave it to the smart guys who tohught to pile all the meat in the smalelr pile.
09:17 mircea_popescu zeus is not remarkably smart, you know.
09:17 mircea_popescu Framedragger so the myth was reinterpreted, by later imbeciles, who don't even speak greek.
09:17 Framedragger true that. goes the extra way to fuck women, metamorphosis and all, so i'll give him that tho
09:17 Framedragger mircea_popescu: true..
09:17 mircea_popescu but anyway - the greek idea of gods doesn't have them as a sort of christian deity, omnipotent, all wise etc. it's not fucking allah.
09:18 mircea_popescu it's zeus, a sort of nero, the overpowerful lucky bastard.
09:18 asciilifeform this is kindergarten material - does anyone really misconceive zeus et al as 'allahs' ?!
09:19 mircea_popescu well apparently you jus' did, above ?
09:19 asciilifeform mno?
09:19 mircea_popescu anyway. prometeus stole from the dumb to give to the smart.
09:19 mircea_popescu which is exactly as it should be.
09:19 mircea_popescu obv, the dumb had something to steal the smart wanted. there'd be no story otherwise.
09:19 asciilifeform my point was that human tards also got fire.
09:19 mircea_popescu not originally.
09:20 mircea_popescu human tards wondered about greek fire for 12 centuries.
09:20 asciilifeform btw recall how turks captured intact and fueled-up siphons and went wtf ?
09:21 mircea_popescu aha
09:21 asciilifeform i always wondered
09:21 asciilifeform evidently there was something more to it than cranking the pump.
09:22 mircea_popescu yeah. "not being an imbecile".
09:22 asciilifeform even ww2 flamethrowers had tricky ignition.
09:22 asciilifeform it is the mega-problem of the item.
09:22 mircea_popescu the principal limit is in people's heads, not in the fucking reality surroundant.
09:22 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you know what also is tricky ? anal sex.
09:22 mircea_popescu they figured that out.
09:23 asciilifeform what's the trick?
09:25 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538218 << btw i can tell from mircea_popescu's photo why it exploded.
09:25 a111 Logged on 2016-09-09 12:59 deedbot: http://trilema.com/2016/industria-argentina-or-my-life-among-the-tribal-savages/ << Trilema - Industria Argentina, or my life among the tribal savages.
09:25 mircea_popescu tell ?
09:25 asciilifeform should i give it away, or did he already find the key that opens this chest.
09:25 mircea_popescu i expect poor insulation.
09:25 asciilifeform still got that beheaded wire?
09:25 mircea_popescu yeah
09:25 asciilifeform is it solid or stranded?
09:26 asciilifeform looks solid to me
09:26 mircea_popescu very thin stranded
09:26 mircea_popescu but sure, perfectly possible it narrowed over time
09:26 asciilifeform works same.
09:26 asciilifeform btw wire breaks, not as folks naively assume, from fatigue
09:27 asciilifeform it breaks from work hardening.
09:27 mircea_popescu point remains this is one of the most basic items of civilisation. it's been gotten right by most cultures throughout the many decades.
09:27 asciilifeform becomes brittle, like lathe cutter.
09:27 mircea_popescu except by these despicable monkeys.
09:28 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i will inform you with great joy that apple power adapters die in this identical manner.
09:28 asciilifeform without exception.
09:28 asciilifeform and for past decade+.
09:28 mircea_popescu i never contested apple's a fucking zoo.
09:28 asciilifeform they have replaceable mains ends though, so the death happens on the low voltage dc side.
09:29 asciilifeform but looks quite the same.
09:30 asciilifeform and i mist dispute that 'others got right'. the ~correct~ wire for an item like this is ~coiled~ like old telephone cord. and is afaik available nowhere.
09:30 mircea_popescu nobody asks you to use the cheapest fucking potmetal you can find.
09:30 asciilifeform i was trying just the other week to buy for my cnc motors.
09:30 asciilifeform cannot be had.
09:30 asciilifeform at any price.
09:31 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it isn't the shitmetal in this case.
09:31 asciilifeform you need sane geometry.
09:31 asciilifeform avoid kink radius.
09:31 mircea_popescu sure, sure. a proper alloy saves you from shitty geometry, but you can't use zamac.
09:32 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: wire is silver-coloured ?
09:32 asciilifeform hard to see on photo
09:32 mircea_popescu lulzy intro : ro construction codes throughout fully banned aluminum wiring, to the point they'd hang you.
09:32 mircea_popescu this went away. about the time the idiot us-style builders moved in.
09:32 mircea_popescu now they want to mandate sprinklers.
09:32 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: even in usa they banned
09:32 mircea_popescu lemme cut that thing up
09:33 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: also i must sadly point out that aluminum wire is a forced mistake -- copper price.
09:33 asciilifeform it will come back into the habitations of poorfags
09:33 asciilifeform inevitably. it'll be it -- or candlelight.
09:34 Framedragger [OT just for the record, it seems that rfc 7413 ("tcp fast open") won't do any good because (lo and behold) not only would it not save against syn floods, it'd actually introduce new attacks (2.2 and beyond). and existing mitigation techniques may not work. gotta love those people. yeah, fuck tcp.]
09:35 asciilifeform Framedragger: not only tcp, but the horse it rode in on. whole thing must burn.
09:35 Framedragger [like, *of course* the only reason we want a spec which allows for data in initial syn packet is for shitphones to be able to load google ads quicker. use for security???! nowai]
09:35 asciilifeform tcp has no future, Framedragger .
09:36 asciilifeform shoot it in the head, pour cement.
09:36 Framedragger asciilifeform: that's what i'm worried about, you may have to burn IP, too. and i'm all up for mesh networks and post nuclear radio, but kinda sucks that the whole internet backbone may be incompatible with proper gossipd, gotta admit.
09:36 asciilifeform Framedragger: backbone is usable to the extent it can simulate radio.
09:36 asciilifeform i.e. connectionless passing of data.
09:37 Framedragger good perspective, i guess
09:37 asciilifeform where the source and destination are not known to one another spatially.
09:37 PeterL asciilifeform don't you know the future is wireless power? We won't need all this copper running through our houses once we make the *tech breakthrough*!
09:38 Framedragger just use apple's bluetooth earwaxphones
09:38 mircea_popescu asciilifeform http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/09/argentina-is-populated-by-subhuman-monkeyspawn-4.jpg
09:38 asciilifeform PeterL: funnily enough, the tallow candle is wireless device, so the imbeciles ~will~ get their wish.
09:38 mircea_popescu oddly enough, they even went to the problem of copper-colouring it.
09:39 asciilifeform looks like copper from here.
09:39 PeterL and if you buy cheapo beef, there is lots of fat drippings to make candles with!
09:39 mircea_popescu it doesn't fucking behave like copper.
09:39 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: copper with no strain relief will harden and snap just like any other metal.
09:40 mircea_popescu try doing this in practice with pure elemental copper.
09:41 asciilifeform they dun sell elemental metals at the metal yard.
09:41 mircea_popescu so shitty alloy. which is the point.
09:41 asciilifeform ~useless
09:41 mircea_popescu also, pure coper comes native, if you live in a land that doesn't suck you can just get yourself a chunk from the local cave.
09:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu is posting from time warp or wat.
09:42 asciilifeform the surface copper is gone.
09:42 mircea_popescu live in better places!
09:42 asciilifeform antarctica?
09:42 mircea_popescu altearthia.
09:43 asciilifeform hyperborea.
09:43 mircea_popescu or you know, bolivia.
09:43 asciilifeform i thought only elemental cocaine comes out of the ground there!
09:44 mircea_popescu gotta smoke it out of something...
09:44 mircea_popescu !~google cora-cora
09:44 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: Cora Cora Restaurant: <http://www.coraperu.com/home.html>; Cora Cora - 193 Photos & 143 Reviews - Latin American - 162 ...: <https://www.yelp.com/biz/cora-cora-west-hartford>; Cora Cora Restaurant | Facebook: <https://www.facebook.com/Cora-Cora-Restaurant-129413390878/>
09:44 mircea_popescu ugh.
09:44 mircea_popescu !~google coro-coro
09:44 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: CoroCoro Comic - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CoroCoro_Comic>; # corocoro hashtag on Twitter: <https://twitter.com/hashtag/corocoro>; Saturday: Pokémon Sun & Moon - CoroCoro Reveals + Zygarde ...: <http://www.serebii.net/news/2016/11-June-2016.shtml>
09:44 mircea_popescu ffs.
09:45 mircea_popescu it was something like this, uruk speak.
09:45 asciilifeform viruviru?
09:45 mircea_popescu nah lessee
09:46 mircea_popescu http://www.minclassics.com/cups810.php << here we go.
09:47 thestringpuller Framedragger: just use apple's bluetooth earwaxphones << Glad I'm not the only one who discovered despite who clean I try to keep the headphones. Earwax gunks up into the metal screens and inevitably fucks up the sound.
09:47 asciilifeform thestringpuller: clean with flux remover.
09:48 asciilifeform dry in the sun.
09:48 mircea_popescu earflux!
09:49 asciilifeform 'Lastly, it must be noted that there hasn't been any significant amount of these specimens on the market in approximately 25 years, and they are often only found in old collections. Recently I was informed that a Korean mining company has started a large commercial operation at Corocoro, specifically mining for Copper, leaving little possibility that more of these specimens will available in the future, or at least until the mining op
09:49 asciilifeform i did say.
09:50 mircea_popescu aww
09:50 asciilifeform junkyard planet.
09:51 asciilifeform the new mines.
09:52 mircea_popescu in related news http://67.media.tumblr.com/12d82141a575dd183610da2c61886cf4/tumblr_njgwd4kuzi1scqgdto5_1280.jpg ; or i suppose http://66.media.tumblr.com/6f7147815385acbf1003d4029965f442/tumblr_njgwd4kuzi1scqgdto4_1280.jpg
09:52 mircea_popescu can't quite decide.
09:55 asciilifeform how did mircea_popescu even pick up this kink
09:55 mircea_popescu hm ?
09:56 asciilifeform the 'black deflorators' thing or what was it
09:56 asciilifeform so 18th c.
09:56 mircea_popescu how is it my kink ? i'm not the one living on the planet without copper deposits!
09:57 mircea_popescu though i suppose it should be a bunch of tiny azn dicks rather than one big one... hm...
09:59 asciilifeform dunno, when folks post pr0nz i generally picture that it exemplifies what gets them going. or at least isnt wholly unappetizing. then again we also have BingoBoingo's material.
10:00 asciilifeform so i have monumentally nfi.
10:00 PeterL I feel like BingoBoingo has not posted anything in a while ...
10:00 asciilifeform PeterL: perhaps he finally quit reddit
10:01 asciilifeform this is a healthy thing
10:03 shinohai !~later tell BingoBoingo http://ix.io/1lmV
10:03 jhvh1 shinohai: The operation succeeded.
10:06 asciilifeform in other noose, koch rolled out his 'wks' turd, http://www.golem.de/news/web-key-service-openpgp-schluessel-ueber-https-verteilen-1609-123194.html
10:10 thestringpuller there no news mr. PeterL
10:11 thestringpuller well fat news*
10:17 mod6 Good news from lastnight: Was able to do some polishing and wrench turning to get the makefiles to utilize the pressed source in src/
10:17 mod6 Will have some more to report on in a few days. Salud!
10:18 asciilifeform neato mod6
10:18 mod6 o7
10:28 mod6 interesting convo this am re: gossipd & v
10:30 asciilifeform mod6: the correct pill is to decouple (at least from enemy's pov) gossip station keys from royal keys.
10:30 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160909/#23 << yes mod6 but to clarify : "one button" refers to the situation where the user already has a trusted copy of V, and a .sig directory populated as per his taste. these are part of the definition of identity, and going forward can and should be assumed present. << Sounds fair. Thanks for outlining this.
10:30 scriba Logged on 2016-09-09: [00:55:24] <mod6> This hypothetical solution, even if it does work, wouldn't make it a one-button-push solution. Why? A person would need to get V + V.sig, verify, create a .wot dir, sync the patches + seals, manually or automatically, press the tree, then navigate into the pressed tree, and then `make`.
10:30 asciilifeform ~how~ to do this in a protocolic (rather than promisetronic) way, is another matter.
10:31 asciilifeform but machines receiving, and responding to, packet matter signed by NO ONE, has NO future.
10:33 mod6 <+asciilifeform> http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538037 << lel what has mircea_popescu been drinking...? << It is an intersting thought; a distributed V, which rails against the complaints of "omfg another centralized piece of equipment!!11"
10:33 a111 Logged on 2016-09-09 10:50 mircea_popescu: incidentally asciilifeform mod6 trinque et all : what would you think about adding a p2p client to V ? it'd be like a daemon which listens for connections from peers and maintains lists of pressables.
10:33 asciilifeform v as it presently exists (at least in my prototype) is 100% decentralized.
10:34 mod6 indeed.
10:34 mod6 and mine can be used, 100% in the same way. im not even sure that i fully agree that mine should do what it does. you and I both, seperately have wrestled with this thought.
10:35 mod6 V has a future. interesting to think about where it may go from here.
10:36 mod6 someday, when we have a tmsr cryptolib & rsa-o-matic, maybe we can starting building a gossipd prototype.
↖
10:37 shinohai mircea_popescu may have inhaled toxic black smoke from poorly manufactured Argentine electronics mod6
10:38 mod6 .ar does fab?
10:38 mod6 lol
10:38 mod6 oh wait, forgot about the wonky-fan
10:39 shinohai see >>> http://trilema.com/2016/industria-argentina-or-my-life-among-the-tribal-savages/
10:39 mod6 yeah, forgot about that. anyway, i appreciate interesting ideas.
10:40 mod6 a lot of new questions and discussions will arise once someone starts to prototype gossipd out.
10:41 shinohai I agree with trinque tho that V has a place in /usr/bin/local of the future
10:42 mod6 well, indeed, if it continues to be useful and oft used.
10:42 mod6 i need more coffee.
10:51 mod6 <+asciilifeform> mod6: the correct pill is to decouple (at least from enemy's pov) gossip station keys from royal keys. << so to clairify this a bit, at least for myself, the gossipd node that I run and operate would verify transmissions sent to it with mod6-battlestation-key, but when I would actually go to send something out it would sign with mod6 "royal" or "personal" key?
↖
10:53 mod6 maybe...
10:53 mod6 i don't want to disagree with what I just said here: <+mod6> a lot of new questions and discussions will arise once someone starts to prototype gossipd out.
10:54 mod6 but, maybe the first step, to recognize Framedragger, is to update the spec. there has been much discussion about this, and maybe I'm having a hard time keeping all of the details in my head.
10:54 mircea_popescu how's work mod6 ?
10:55 mod6 boring.
10:55 mircea_popescu that's its job!
10:55 shinohai I take it your female java shadow isn't there?
10:55 mod6 haha. indeed, hopefully will rid myself of these labors someday soon.
10:55 mod6 shinohai: yup.
10:56 mircea_popescu come to think of it, is there such a thing as a gossipd spec even ? what's the current canonical version ?
10:57 mircea_popescu the two year old http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/ ?
10:57 mod6 i'd have to dig it up, but i thought there was a trilema that outlined the 'spec' back a while ago.
10:57 mod6 yah that, maybe.
10:57 mircea_popescu ok this is pretty scandalous.
↖
10:57 mircea_popescu ima publish an updated thing, at least give discussion some sort of basis that's not 19 months out of date.
10:58 mod6 very much appreciated, and my apologies if the original is still on point.
11:00 mircea_popescu marginally at best.
11:02 mod6 more than anything, i just want to be able to contribue a bit better to these gossipd discussions - which will be a vital part of the infrastructure.
11:02 mod6 thanks mircea_popescu
11:02 phf we had a thread about it two weeks ago, where the conclusion was that gossipd as written in the only available spec has all kinds of problems and shouldn't be implemented/used
11:03 mircea_popescu pretty much.
11:03 mircea_popescu (i just wrote that lol)
11:03 mod6 phf: ah, indeed then, we should rework it with what we've since discussed and rethought since 2015 or whenever, and see if a prototyping process can begin.
11:04 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529660 and http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529832
11:04 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 13:34 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-26#1529651 << ~tcp~ is evil, and i will kill it with my own hands. at least in the sense where i killed, e.g., git.
11:04 a111 Logged on 2016-08-26 15:26 phf: btw is it possible to chosen-ciphertext attack gpg if it were to sit on the wire?
11:06 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538426 << phf has own, and i have, and possibly other folks. but there remain unsolved problems.
11:06 a111 Logged on 2016-09-09 14:36 mod6: someday, when we have a tmsr cryptolib & rsa-o-matic, maybe we can starting building a gossipd prototype.
11:07 mod6 huh, alright.
11:07 asciilifeform ( and if i were satisfied that the problems are even ~separable~, i would not call them problems )
11:09 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538437 << think of the current separation between ~people~ and ~geography~.
11:09 a111 Logged on 2016-09-09 14:51 mod6: <+asciilifeform> mod6: the correct pill is to decouple (at least from enemy's pov) gossip station keys from royal keys. << so to clairify this a bit, at least for myself, the gossipd node that I run and operate would verify transmissions sent to it with mod6-battlestation-key, but when I would actually go to send something out it would sign with mod6 "royal" or "personal" key?
11:09 asciilifeform there is 'mod6' and 'castle of mod6'.
11:09 asciilifeform simply because something was said in the castle of mod6 , does not mean that it was he who said it.
11:10 asciilifeform what i've referred to as 'station key' is simply a nonspoofable substitute for the ip address.
11:10 asciilifeform and nowhere is it mandated that a station has only a sole key
11:10 mod6 ah, alright.
11:10 phf (that idea is actually introduced in original gossip spec, but it's not obvious without rereading relevant bits a few times that it allows you to have secondary key
11:10 asciilifeform for so long as other stations can reliably communicate with it amidst arbitrary levels of enemy shitflooding
11:11 phf )
11:11 asciilifeform phf: aha, the 'for' item.
11:12 asciilifeform it is unfortunately also one of the weak points in mircea_popescu's original sketch, as an enemy who turns up a 'for' binding signature can make an attribution of station ownership.
↖
11:12 mod6 and i suppose this makes it easier to swap out the station key and retain the royal key.
11:12 asciilifeform that is, can infer a link between a station key and royal key.
11:13 asciilifeform mod6: no lord in his right mind would connect his royal key to a machine that emits signed material autonomously.
11:13 asciilifeform (or deciphers autonomously)
11:13 asciilifeform this is kindergarten material.
11:14 mod6 right. i think this whole topic is totally over my head these days.
11:14 mod6 i better reread all of this stuff :/
11:14 asciilifeform mod6: presently it is a machine which contains a box labeled ???, which is the answer to a mathematical problem.
11:14 asciilifeform (attribution 'for us but not for them'.)
11:15 asciilifeform whereas 'attribution for no one' is the current net and whoever wants it, already has it.
11:15 asciilifeform and it is doomed to sybilatronic heat death.
11:20 asciilifeform earlier in thread, mircea_popescu pointed out - correctly - that signature is not the only form of cryptoauthentication, and that there is also challenge-response, a la deedbot etc.
11:21 asciilifeform but challenge-response requires 2way comms.
11:21 asciilifeform and violates the principle of nothing-to-allcomers.
↖
11:21 asciilifeform (if all-comer can get a challenge, this not only makes you ddosable tcp-style, but turns your gossip net into a ddosatron weapon for any idiot who can get spoofed packets into it)
11:22 asciilifeform ntp-style.
11:22 asciilifeform and anyone who - like mircea_popescu earlier - states that 'but all-comer will ~not~ be able to request a challenge' is stuck explaining why not.
11:23 asciilifeform ('because he does not know the ip to ask' is an idiot answer. you don't even need to be at ft meade, Framedragger's scanner could easily be modified to send a challenge req to entire ipv4 space every couple of hours.)
11:24 asciilifeform enemy must NOT have the ability to determine that an arbitrary ip contains a gossip node.
11:24 asciilifeform *determine whether
11:25 asciilifeform this is the basic nothing-to-allcomers principle. for wot - everything. for rando - NOTHING. not even 'challenge packet' or whatever.
11:25 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538451 << it's good you acknowledge that, 'cause very time i want to point out "where's your $spec for $x guyz" i feel kinda shit 'cause i should do more, myself. which is a point. and yet the scandalocity remains!
11:25 a111 Logged on 2016-09-09 14:57 mircea_popescu: ok this is pretty scandalous.
11:25 Framedragger every*
11:28 asciilifeform a correctly-operating gossiptron must not be distinguishable from an unplugged cord , to anyone not in its peerage.
~ 16 minutes ~
11:45 mod6 asciilifeform: ah, ok.
11:45 mod6 i follow.
11:46 mod6 i'll have to reread all of this stuff; i have difficulty with a mental model of this. but i do follow the detail points.
11:47 mod6 the whole picture tho; need the whole picture
11:47 mod6 i'll work on that.
11:48 mod6 i apparently need to read your blog more, at least, on the specifics of lisp-cpu via verilog & fpga
11:48 asciilifeform fortunately this is not related to gossipd...
11:49 mod6 yah, totally a different ball of wax.
11:49 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/ << plox to comment.
11:49 * asciilifeform digs in.
11:49 * mod6 looks
11:52 mod6 <+shinohai> see >>> http://trilema.com/2016/industria-argentina-or-my-life-among-the-tribal-savages/ << holy shit! (btw)
11:53 mircea_popescu yasrsly.
11:57 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118902 << asciilifeform's note.
11:58 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538479 << wouldn't a simple nonce prevent against replay attacks (if you can call them that), tho? or did you refer to a case where the enemy attains the actual privkey of the station?
11:58 a111 Logged on 2016-09-09 15:12 asciilifeform: it is unfortunately also one of the weak points in mircea_popescu's original sketch, as an enemy who turns up a 'for' binding signature can make an attribution of station ownership.
11:59 asciilifeform Framedragger: there is nothing simple about it.
11:59 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i'ma be answering throughout teh day!
11:59 asciilifeform Framedragger: do you propose to keep track of all nonces used for all time ?
11:59 asciilifeform whereas if you make it incremental, you leak information that third parties have no business knowing.
12:00 Framedragger nonce + hmac? ah, but, hmac uses symmetric crypto oh noes :/
12:00 Framedragger hm.
12:00 Framedragger i am oversimplifying, i guess
12:01 Framedragger actually, nm. if you don't want to leak incremental info of this kind, i guess it does become more difficult
12:02 mircea_popescu it gets worse, the concept of "incremental" is undefined.
12:02 asciilifeform ^
12:02 Framedragger asciilifeform: tho am not sure if it's necessarily bad, to leak incremental nonces. i mean, i know you don't want to leak one single useful bit to da enemy; i don't know if it's a practical constraint, even if it is laudible.
12:02 Framedragger suresure.
12:02 Framedragger tcp seq id's again? :/ right.
12:02 asciilifeform Framedragger: idea is to leak 0.
12:03 mircea_popescu Framedragger understand what the problem is here. it's not that you give away the secret number 40084059534. it's that you give away the fact that you and X both somehow live in a world where ++ means something.
12:03 asciilifeform especially not a useful tidbit such as 'how long node a and b have been in communion'
12:03 mircea_popescu this is necessarily not gossipd / bitcoin / p2p world.
12:03 asciilifeform mircea_popescu nails it.
12:03 Framedragger " 'how long node a and b have been in communion'" - right, that i can understand, that it's not good
12:03 Framedragger right.
12:04 mircea_popescu not even just how long. it's just a sort of coupling. "these two have a solution to us army general problem"
12:07 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118905 << moar.
12:08 deedbot http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/ << Trilema - [G]ossipd design document
12:10 mircea_popescu answer't.
12:11 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118907 <<.
12:15 mircea_popescu answer't.
12:17 asciilifeform answrd'^2.
12:23 mircea_popescu again. lol. thisis getting ridoinculous.
12:24 mod6 its a good dialogue though.
~ 17 minutes ~
12:41 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118911 << ok i warn, this is long.
~ 35 minutes ~
13:17 mircea_popescu asciilifeform ping
13:17 * asciilifeform digs in
13:21 mircea_popescu meanwhile on campus, http://67.media.tumblr.com/59b06563cbb62fbc525ded0c5f50f138/tumblr_my8992ECJW1rm1zwvo1_1280.jpg
13:22 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: pong
13:24 mircea_popescu answer't.
~ 30 minutes ~
13:55 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118915 << .
~ 17 minutes ~
14:12 mircea_popescu answer't.
14:17 asciilifeform answr't^2.
14:18 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118918 << continuation.
14:20 phf at least this time annotations don't include 1000 line log excerpts
14:21 asciilifeform lol
14:21 mircea_popescu lol
14:22 mod6 when you think it's a good idea, we can add a project to tb0t if it seems prudent.
14:23 mircea_popescu yeah. prolly too soon yet.
14:23 mircea_popescu aaand answered.
14:28 asciilifeform aaanswrd^3.
14:37 mircea_popescu aha.
14:39 asciilifeform ^4.
14:39 mod6 Nice thread!
14:49 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118927 << ^5.
14:55 asciilifeform (continued.)
14:56 mircea_popescu ok this multi-comment thing is getting out of hand. why not just think the thing through and say it once.
14:56 asciilifeform i did.
14:56 asciilifeform and came to conclusion that there is a massive hole in the scheme sketched out in subj link, that i can drive a maersk cargo liner through.
14:59 mircea_popescu so far this isn't a shared view.
14:59 mircea_popescu anyways, i shall bbl!
15:02 asciilifeform answr'd.
15:04 asciilifeform as it stands, the cost to E of replaying any or all of the packets between A and B, or reordering, is 0.
15:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu's answer appears to be 'lala can't hear you.'
15:05 asciilifeform this has not been an especially productive discussion.
15:08 asciilifeform E can ding A and B for less cost to himself than they incur from said ding. which is the elementary particle from which ddos is made.
15:09 asciilifeform (picture a weapon that kills the same POPULATION PERCENTAGE of the firer's army as of the enemy. it would be quite useless. any weapon requires asymmetry to work.)
15:11 asciilifeform and mircea_popescu's favorite rhetorical device is 'this is not relevant.' hey, it's the man's own blog, who am i to say that he has to consider my observations relevant. but this nonsense won't keep rainwater out of a tent, much less ft meade.
15:12 asciilifeform in approx. the sage's own words, 'piss in one hand, argument irrelevance in the other, see which one weighs more.'
15:13 asciilifeform and if i can describe (and i can) how the scheme can be broken WITHOUT breaking the cipher, then the cipher is decorative.
15:13 asciilifeform promisetronic.
15:14 asciilifeform just like the idiot 'tamper seals' that are trivially broken every day, not only by usg but by turd world pissant secret services, merely by penetrating the ENVELOPE.
15:15 asciilifeform ( handy illustration : https://archive.is/dMwk5 )
15:19 asciilifeform in unrelated lulz, http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/FAAF6A486AF408A503BF3AF87E4C646B05C79E50530D03BECB2F30A911C66EC5
~ 48 minutes ~
16:08 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118933 << encore.
16:10 asciilifeform and FOR FUCKS SAKE, rsa ciphertext LEAKS THE PUBKEY
16:10 asciilifeform this nails the whole scheme regardless of all other considerations.
16:10 asciilifeform we had this thread, what, 3 times.
16:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu's scheme answers 'E infers key, floods A with megatonne of shit' with 'A renegotiates key with all of A's peers via magical channel that E cannot saturate with shit'
16:14 asciilifeform which is an epicycle
16:15 asciilifeform begs the question, why not simply communicate over this magical submarine cable to begin with ?
16:15 asciilifeform why use a medium where enemy can inject.
~ 23 minutes ~
16:38 mircea_popescu o hey, three comments on trilema plus twenty lines here.
16:38 mircea_popescu is this ADD ?
16:39 mircea_popescu but in other news, took delivery of proper copper cord ; should be interesting to notice how this one never ever blows up.
16:50 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118935 << aaand encore.
16:57 mod6 mircea_popescu: your lady's hand looked ghastly. she should get to slap the first born of all of the industrial leaders in .ar.
17:00 mircea_popescu mod6 to her credit she didn't even piss self.
17:00 asciilifeform waiwat
17:00 mircea_popescu asciilifeform answert.
17:00 asciilifeform do they usually?!
17:00 mod6 it looked as if someone lit off a M80 in her hand.
17:01 asciilifeform mod6: i'd expect some missing flesh then, neh ?
17:01 mircea_popescu yes, pissing self is common in a) women, especially if well used (in practice, this is often seen around childbirth) ; b) scared people, especially if young ; c) electricity mishaps, especially if high voltage.
17:01 mod6 i don't know for sure. maybe "hand full of blackcats" or something. small firecrackers.
17:02 mircea_popescu so yes, a+b+c, pretty stacked deck.
17:02 mod6 mircea_popescu: to her credit indeed. poor lady.
17:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i gotta ask, did the breaker blow ?
17:03 asciilifeform or do these, also, do something exciting and unexpected in the land of the pampas cat.
17:03 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i had them replaced them with sane items, so they cut power, yes.
17:03 mircea_popescu (there was a cold snap, and that place drew just about 19 amps consistently for days, i'm pretty sure)
17:04 mod6 wow, that seems high.
17:05 mod6 nevermind, im smoking crack
17:09 mircea_popescu it's you know.. not that high, 4kwh-ish.
17:09 mircea_popescu but houses are usually wired for 20
17:09 mircea_popescu because houses are not usually heated on electric power ffs.
17:09 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: answr'd.
17:10 mircea_popescu !!rate deedbot 1
17:10 deedbot Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/9rjgi/?raw=true
17:16 mircea_popescu instead of pings, i shall now proceed to pronz. like so : http://67.media.tumblr.com/63e35b70e89db0293762942aa35cf992/tumblr_n06ukj9LrE1ruyp7wo1_1280.jpg
17:22 asciilifeform lol neat
17:22 mircea_popescu much to alf's relief, it's not a buncha baluba.
17:23 asciilifeform eh i am wooden inside, bad pr0nz dun do much.
17:23 mircea_popescu aww! wooden inside is not from a good lyfe.
17:23 asciilifeform has up-sides.
17:35 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118939 << aaand moar.
17:47 mircea_popescu oh and in other-other news : mp decides maybe he wants to turn http://trilema.com/2016/just-call-me-annah/ into an art movie ; proceeds to call buenos aires studios and modelling agencies.
17:47 mircea_popescu out of about thirty studios, twenty five respond, within a day mp has one dozen amply adequate locations for a casting.
17:47 mircea_popescu out of about thirty agencies, five respond. mp is awestruck by just how retarded the people involved are.
17:48 mircea_popescu such disparitits.
17:52 deedbot http://cascadianhacker.com/fallon-smarts-murderer-out-on-bail << CH - Fallon Smart's Murderer Out On Bail
17:59 mircea_popescu ahahaha srsly, ben_vulpes uses T favicon ?
17:59 ben_vulpes ohey
17:59 ben_vulpes dafuq is a favicon anyways
17:59 mircea_popescu ikr ?
18:00 ben_vulpes anyways, fixd, ty
18:01 mircea_popescu best part about that ?
18:01 mircea_popescu "bail could be the full amount or 10% of the full amount" in small print.
18:01 mircea_popescu retail is for suckers amirite ?
18:01 ben_vulpes ja :D
18:02 ben_vulpes i wonder if you can get a bulk discount for getting your kids out of us.jail?
18:02 mircea_popescu depends. are you A and do you know B ?
18:02 ben_vulpes why now that you ask, no and no!
18:03 * ben_vulpes will be damn reluctant to bail offspring out
18:03 ben_vulpes "what was the first rule? DON'T GET CAUGHT!"
18:03 mircea_popescu hopefully b v gets daughters, they get to be 16, call weekly "dad... i'm in jail... because i'm pregnant..."
18:03 mircea_popescu amusingly enough, the expression also was, "to get caught".
18:04 ben_vulpes any girls are getting implants, and the boys get a trip to india for the plastic
18:04 ben_vulpes weekly abortions yikes what a nightmare
18:04 mircea_popescu a trip to... hm. what ?
18:05 * mircea_popescu was personally acquainted with lovely, bouncy redhead who got like a dozen in one year.
18:05 ben_vulpes isn't there some risk to stacking them like that?
18:05 mircea_popescu quite.
18:06 mircea_popescu if you keep scraping eventually you reach the outside you know.
18:06 ben_vulpes anyways, there's this porous not particularly bioreactive plastic some people think it fine to inject into the urethra
18:06 mircea_popescu o.O
18:06 ben_vulpes carries a positive charge, shreds sperm cell walls.
18:06 ben_vulpes er
18:06 ben_vulpes not urethra, surely.
18:07 mircea_popescu epididymus ?
18:07 ben_vulpes the cum-pipe, whatever that is.
18:07 ben_vulpes sure?
18:07 ben_vulpes anyways, can be flushed right out with a gentle solvent.
18:07 mircea_popescu sperm pipe. cum pipe is more like from prostate you know.
18:08 * ben_vulpes does not!
18:08 mircea_popescu never cut up a penis ?
18:08 trinque penises, how do they work
18:09 jurov hydraulics!
18:09 mircea_popescu why hydraulics, it only has one head...
18:11 * trinque now stuck imagining this stuff stuck in urethra
18:11 * mircea_popescu recommends trinque undergo a recreational sounds session.
18:11 jurov http://www.medicaldaily.com/new-male-birth-control-sperm-switch-temporaily-sterilizes-men-flip-switch-368784 << yet better stuff to imagine
18:12 trinque mircea_popescu: hey that has a handle you can pull, or so I gather
18:12 mircea_popescu slowly, ideally.
18:12 jurov but ben_vulpes is proll going for remote activation by rsa sig via gossipd
18:12 mircea_popescu btw jurov mind protesting the heteronormative pronz a little bit, i need something to counterbalance alf!
18:12 ben_vulpes jurov: upside of the plastic is that it is porous and doesn't clog
18:13 mircea_popescu from what i've seen, the porous stuff and the porous stuff only clogs.
18:13 mircea_popescu kinda the definition of these terms, neh ?
18:13 jurov ben_vulpes: but no rsa signatures re involved!
18:13 ben_vulpes jurov: myeah i gave up on the cyberpunk dream of technology in my body a loooong time ago.
18:14 ben_vulpes heh i actually remember when it was! 'diamond age' has a great gag where the poors with shitty ocular implants have to suffer viral ads all day and go insane
18:14 mircea_popescu anyway, think of all the great stuff blockchain technologies allows, guise! you could have like, a satoshi dice based aviator's club, whereby the men all put their house keys in a pile and the women pick from there as previously, BUT whether the dick works or not is now blockchain lottery based!
18:14 mircea_popescu and all the resulting children can be called satoshi!
18:14 ben_vulpes viral in the sense of virii in the implants
18:15 mircea_popescu "the poors", check it out.
18:15 * mircea_popescu likes the idea.
18:16 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: "clog" here meaning that jurovs valve needs blowing off.
18:16 jurov ben_vulpes: unreleased sperm eventually just decays in the balls
18:16 mircea_popescu and to your detriment.
18:17 ben_vulpes something something alzheimers something something immune system
18:17 mircea_popescu something something like that.
18:17 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-08#1362586
18:17 a111 Logged on 2016-01-08 00:12 asciilifeform: and even not considering this absurdity, you would have same problem as vasectomy patient (the sperm gets reabsorbed and your immune system begins to generate antibodies against it. with bonus measurable extra risk of alzheimer's)
18:18 ben_vulpes i did eventually run the citation down, 'twas some less than thirty old men with beginning signs of alzheimers who realized they all had vasectomies
18:18 asciilifeform ahahaha nice , asciilifeform doesn't need to crank the logtron, other folks will do it !111
18:18 asciilifeform if only this worked for everything else!
18:18 mircea_popescu you could just store all the sperm
18:19 ben_vulpes let's store all the sperm in the appendix
18:19 trinque would not blow my mind that this leads towards autoimmune disorders
18:19 mircea_popescu great idea! it's predestined for it : appen-dicks
18:19 ben_vulpes lol
18:19 mircea_popescu from old german to appen
18:19 trinque iirc there's speculation alzheimers *is* autoimmune
18:19 asciilifeform trinque, ben_vulpes : the first tipoff that one can immunologically zap own spermatozoids came not from alzheimer's patients, but from folks attempting to have vasectomy reversed
18:20 mircea_popescu did i drop the "prionic" alt-explanation in log or no ? i... can't recall ?
18:20 asciilifeform and who noticed that the reversal worked mechanically, but somehow ~0 spermatozoons made it to the other end.
18:21 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-19#1377669
18:21 a111 Logged on 2016-01-19 22:00 mircea_popescu: they recently discovered that it's quite likely alzheimer's is a prion based infectious disease,
18:21 mircea_popescu o ty!
18:21 * mircea_popescu cranks trilema, discovers no stan replies, is baffled by this development.
18:21 asciilifeform lel
18:22 mircea_popescu it can't be that you're ~satisfied~ can it ?!
18:22 asciilifeform nope.
18:22 asciilifeform just that i only have 2handz.
18:22 mircea_popescu and another myth shatters.
18:22 asciilifeform free.
18:23 mircea_popescu "kyle go clean your room this instant!" "sorry mom, i... i... i malloc'd my hands and i think there were some double free's in there or something!"
18:23 mircea_popescu "i can't find my hands."
18:26 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118941 << there you go.
18:27 mircea_popescu btw, speaking of this : any chance one of the bot masters wants to add a "subscribe to comments" option ? whereby i go !~subscribe http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/feed/ and it pings me whenever there's new ones ?
18:27 mircea_popescu seems kinda doofy to do this by hand.
18:28 asciilifeform fortunately this is not an exercise we repeat very often.
18:28 trinque I can just throw it in the RSS list
18:29 jurov i found whole discussion too funny, had to throw some 2c in on trilema
18:29 trinque actually, can add !!subscribe for L1 which adds to RSS list, and then can be used for this or anything else that arises
18:30 * ben_vulpes simply subscribed to the trilema comments feed
18:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform possibly more often as time goes by ; because the problem of sorting things by topics is becoming more pressing.
18:36 mircea_popescu trinque but ideally it just pms the subscribers see
18:36 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes i'm not using a rss-tron anymore ; bots ruined me for it.
18:36 trinque ah, possible with current feed eater.
18:37 trinque it has a notion of to whom to send
18:37 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: you know standing up a trinquebot isn't terrifically difficult
18:37 mircea_popescu yeah tru.
18:37 mircea_popescu trinque nice, say when
18:39 jurov on second thought ... oops i inadvertently supported my point by leaking s3cr3t trilema email :( feel free to censor it
18:39 mircea_popescu jurov you might have noticed it's not even in the contact list anymore.
18:39 jurov aok
18:41 * mircea_popescu had girl swallow his cufflink (accidentally!), took her earrings in restitution. discovered that he kinda likes earring cufflinks.
18:41 mircea_popescu such barbarian.
18:42 ben_vulpes how, praytell, does one swallow a cufflink accidentally?
18:42 mircea_popescu it was one of those things.
18:43 shinohai Did you get your cufflink back mircea_popescu ?
18:43 mircea_popescu not so far.
18:43 * shinohai imagines many hours and a bottle of castor oil later ......
18:44 mircea_popescu naah
18:44 mircea_popescu swallowing cufflinks accidentally not on the castor oil list of bad girl behaviours
18:45 ben_vulpes put girl through sifter until cufflinks emerge
18:45 mircea_popescu she can keep it.
18:46 shinohai "geez Mircea, I have never seen such smooth, polished cufflinks. What's your secret?"
18:46 ben_vulpes feed cufflinks to girl, put girl in polisher
18:47 mircea_popescu lol
18:47 mircea_popescu tumbler
18:47 ben_vulpes putting girl in tumblr is a different hobby
18:47 ben_vulpes put /dick/ in girl, put girl in tumblr.
18:47 ben_vulpes voila, polished dick.
18:47 mircea_popescu hm
18:47 mircea_popescu this new learning amazes me.
18:48 ben_vulpes and no lsd even
18:48 mircea_popescu eh, considering where you live, it's prolly in the tap water by now
18:48 * ben_vulpes off to contemplate burning another fortune chasing a larger fortune
18:48 mircea_popescu like estrogen in washington dc
18:48 ben_vulpes no that's floride, which is just as hallucinogenic as nitrous
18:48 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/#comment-118946 << moar fun.
18:48 * ben_vulpes off to burn a fortune in a fit of pique
19:00 deedbot http://qntra.net/2016/09/parasitic-flatworm-named-to-honor-hussein-bahamas/ << Qntra - Parasitic Flatworm Named To Honor Hussein Bahamas
19:09 mircea_popescu !!up vinimore
19:09 deedbot vinimore voiced for 30 minutes.
19:09 vinimore hi, I found a post in a blog about Eulora
19:09 vinimore in a forum*
19:10 vinimore $register 17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D
19:10 thestringpuller !~seen shinohai
19:10 jhvh1 thestringpuller: shinohai was last seen in #trilema 24 minutes and 9 seconds ago: <shinohai> "geez Mircea, I have never seen such smooth, polished cufflinks. What's your secret?"
19:10 vinimore Shinohai! you're the guy that I'm looking for!
19:11 shinohai hi vinimore try comand again but replace $ with !!
19:11 vinimore !!register 17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D
19:11 deedbot Import failed for 17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D.
19:13 mircea_popescu give it ten minutes
19:15 shinohai also o/ thestringpuller
19:16 phf $seen shinohai
19:16 a111 2016-09-09 <shinohai> also o/ thestringpuller
19:17 mircea_popescu lolwut.
19:17 shinohai $unsee
19:17 mircea_popescu phf !# plox.
19:17 phf mircea_popescu: a111's been using $ for search though for a while now
19:17 mircea_popescu well yeah.
19:18 mircea_popescu erryone's been using various things for a while.
19:18 shinohai The Bickening II
19:18 mircea_popescu lol
19:20 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo "In a twist of irony sure not lost to Qntra readers" ?
19:21 mircea_popescu "now has the honor of having" ? eh cmon!
19:21 * mircea_popescu looks at shinohai lookingly through his looksee
19:21 shinohai Not my finest submission
19:21 BingoBoingo ty, fxd
19:24 phf mircea_popescu: so you're saying i should change $s too?
19:24 mircea_popescu change a111 's control sequences whatever they may be currently to !# only please.
↖
19:25 * shinohai thanks BingoBoingo for his patience as editor
19:25 phf i see
19:25 mircea_popescu deedbot got !!, jhvh1 got !~ and further bots will get further of these until we run out and move on to #? etc.
19:26 phf can i nuke all control sequences and have $s exclusively as an equivalent two character operation?
19:26 mircea_popescu but...why ?
19:29 phf well, i think that a111 has only one responsibility, and that's searching though log, whatever else is added is superfluous, but $s's been internalized by, among other people, asciilifeform. i'd rather not see "$s ... ??? ffs!"
19:29 mircea_popescu well if you do see it you can just point at me.
19:29 shinohai !~die
19:29 jhvh1 You have died of dysentery
19:30 phf i see
19:31 vinimore !!register 17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D
19:31 deedbot 17AC8C06F904BB835B85436A5F7F93920047AA1D registered as vinimore.
19:31 mircea_popescu cool.
19:31 mircea_popescu !!key vinimore
19:31 deedbot http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/dhisy/?raw=true
19:32 vinimore what do I do now?
19:33 shinohai wait, mircea_popescu is making you an account vinimore
19:33 shinohai should be just a sec
19:33 vinimore alright :)
19:33 thestringpuller /wind 3
19:33 thestringpuller FUCKING IRSSI
19:33 trinque I hate when it puts a space in front too
19:33 mircea_popescu vinimore http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/as1hg/?raw=true
19:34 * shinohai didn't know Irssi was still in use
19:34 mircea_popescu im pretty sure mirc is still in use
19:39 shinohai !!up vinimore
19:39 deedbot vinimore voiced for 30 minutes.
19:40 vinimore okay, I'm creating my char
19:41 trinque !!subscribe http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/feed/
19:41 deedbot trinque subscribed to http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/feed/
19:41 trinque inb4 oh shit I gotta add threads to the rssatron nao
19:41 trinque mircea_popescu: enjoy!
19:42 trinque et al
19:49 mircea_popescu o hey!
19:49 mircea_popescu there was something else but now i forget wtf
19:49 mircea_popescu oh oh! pastebin key bypassing sks ?
19:49 mircea_popescu !!subscribe http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/feed/
19:49 deedbot mircea_popescu subscribed to http://trilema.com/2016/gossipd-design-document/feed/
19:49 mircea_popescu inb4 "there's no way to unsubscribe ha-ha!"
19:50 trinque lol, that one's coming in a minute! measure twice subscribe once (TM) (R)
19:51 mircea_popescu <3 ya
19:55 mircea_popescu holy shit it has a by :
19:55 mircea_popescu epic.
19:58 mircea_popescu trinque if / when you implement the wallet thing you can even charge for this. i'd pay!
19:58 trinque cool. wallet will come. for now, loss leader.
19:59 mircea_popescu first ever paid-for-rss ; microtransactions ; etc.
19:59 shinohai !!deedbot tip trinque 1 bitcent
19:59 thestringpuller ~_~
20:00 shinohai :D
20:00 thestringpuller !!deedbot tip trinque 1 beer
20:00 thestringpuller we invented changetip!
20:00 trinque howdareyou
20:00 trinque paying for services is different!11!!!
20:00 trinque lol
20:01 thestringpuller oh man i forgot to put my homage to the dreamcast up before 9/9 ended.
20:03 mircea_popescu hooly crap, /me just realises that mp-wp actually has
20:03 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/comments/feed/ !!11
20:04 mircea_popescu this is shockingly useful, like those corner ramps disabled people wanted put in and then everyone just loved them
20:04 mircea_popescu !~subscribe http://trilema.com/comments/feed/
20:04 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: Error: "subscribe" is not a valid command.
20:04 mircea_popescu !!subscribe http://trilema.com/comments/feed/
20:04 deedbot mircea_popescu subscribed to http://trilema.com/comments/feed/
20:04 mircea_popescu this whole thing just became perceptibly more useful!
20:06 shinohai What were specs for a bot wallet anyway? There was a cruddy one written by gribble's author I started to hook to trb one time but never finished
20:06 mircea_popescu it's supposed to keep a balance for you and make payments. exactly same mechanics as rating, which is how i dumped on trinque.
↖
20:07 mircea_popescu no rule that there can only be one, however ; on the contrary.
20:07 trinque more redundancy the better. these facilities end up being what's available on a particular gossipd node, as I see it
20:07 mircea_popescu the more the merrier
20:08 trinque that said shinohai pls do not hook a cruddy anything to your trb for your own sake.
20:08 mircea_popescu trinque soonish we'll end up with a sort of space sim, "you dock to station trinque, here's what's available"
20:08 shinohai no trinque that's why I abandoned it, it was just garbage, I thought I'd be better off to start from scratch.
20:09 mircea_popescu but in other news, http://67.media.tumblr.com/eb09ab99ab8cfa8ea8f5c09effa2c430/tumblr_myizcpkiAy1stdt0mo1_250.gif
20:09 trinque could think of it like bitcoin is a corrosive that *will* find its way out of the container if it can
20:14 thestringpuller trinque: store bitcoin like you would nuclear waste. the true asciilifeform method!
20:14 trinque a very brief overview is that there is one deposit address, encrypted OTPs are archived elsewhere as they are sent to transactors, then deeded, and withdrawals involve a human walk over the account history before dispatching a txn.
20:19 mod6 my new vpatch, as we discussed lastnight works perfectly.
20:20 mod6 im also going to use this vpatch to tag the release and tie up the leafs.
20:28 mod6 http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/4bm0m/?raw=true
↖
20:28 mod6 alright. now we'll begin a testing cycle. when we're done with that, will sign and publish vpatch.
20:36 mircea_popescu nice work mod6
20:36 mod6 thanks Mr. P. :]
~ 1 hours 15 minutes ~
21:51 phf (test)
21:56 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1538879 << oh hey... did ben_vulpes , co-chairman, ever sign a vpatch..?
21:56 a111 Logged on 2016-09-10 00:28 mod6: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/4bm0m/?raw=true
21:56 asciilifeform i could've sworn he wrote >=1
21:58 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1538866 << why not also drown your children for you.
21:58 a111 Logged on 2016-09-10 00:06 mircea_popescu: it's supposed to keep a balance for you and make payments. exactly same mechanics as rating, which is how i dumped on trinque.
21:58 asciilifeform $@drown useless_son
21:58 asciilifeform etc.
21:58 asciilifeform 'oops i meant - 'down' not 'drown' !'
21:59 phf asciilifeform: i don't have any vulpes sigs either..
21:59 asciilifeform 'drownbot hands you a broomstick.'
21:59 asciilifeform phf: i have one for upnp removal but it is pre-v
22:01 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-09#1538801 << wai.
22:01 a111 Logged on 2016-09-09 23:24 mircea_popescu: change a111 's control sequences whatever they may be currently to !# only please.
22:01 asciilifeform i dun get it.
22:02 mod6 yeah, ben has never signed anything.
22:03 asciilifeform not a vpatch, at ant rate.
22:04 asciilifeform any rate
22:04 asciilifeform afaik.
22:04 asciilifeform i like ben_vulpes but he has not been catching mice.
↖
22:05 shinohai From the krypton mines: http://www.labitconf.com/
22:06 shinohai mircea_popescu should go and flip tables.
22:13 trinque asciilifeform: how to do micropayments for deeds and rss notifications without a wallet?
22:14 asciilifeform you don't, micropayments are braindamaged.
22:14 trinque mkay
22:14 asciilifeform and robots in charge of money are a recipe for tears.
22:15 asciilifeform if something merits paying for, it merits macropaying. by human.
22:15 trinque no deedbot for you then.
22:16 trinque it runs off an address that has been slowly dwindling 0.1btc
22:16 asciilifeform i'll gladly take turn filling it.
22:16 trinque no no
22:16 trinque I'm saying it is a robot handling money
22:16 asciilifeform not same thing as a payerbot by any means.
22:17 trinque did you see what I wrote above about it?
22:18 mod6 <+asciilifeform> not a vpatch, at ant rate. << fair distinction
22:18 asciilifeform point plox
22:18 * trinque will need to actually blog about it
22:18 asciilifeform trinque: i promise to read.
22:18 trinque should be possible to confirm that all transactions were authorized by end user before moving any actual btc
22:18 trinque and this on airgapped machine
22:18 * trinque will write
22:19 asciilifeform mod6: this merits a thread imho. it is not reasonable to ask that every ablebodied fella WRITE a useful patch. but why not READ ?
22:20 asciilifeform it is something ~everyone here can usefully do.
22:21 mod6 well, i don't wanna speak for ben_vulpes, but iirc he's read most of them if not all; maybe just didn't get around to signing for lack of time because of baby, and running company.
22:21 asciilifeform i was wondering if he has actual reservations.
22:22 mod6 again, don't wanna speak for the man; however, don't think he has any at this point.
22:22 mod6 ben_vulpes: Sir, please weigh in here when you get a spare moment. ^
22:22 asciilifeform i suppose we can ask him when he next crosses orbit with us.
22:31 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160910/#49 << it's a convention, nothing to get really.
22:31 scriba Logged on 2016-09-10: [02:01:24] <asciilifeform> i dun get it.
22:32 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160910/#56 << what, so i'd be the only bitcoiner there ?
22:32 scriba Logged on 2016-09-10: [02:06:08] <shinohai> mircea_popescu should go and flip tables.
22:33 * shinohai snickers, told covertress this when she invited him
22:33 shinohai I have no interest in that shit
22:34 mircea_popescu anyway. argentina is a fine place for it, more derpy posers per square mile here than almost anywhere in the world.
22:35 mircea_popescu o look, there'sa "coinbr founder".
22:35 mircea_popescu epic.
22:40 shinohai I wonder what are the Bitpay people on schedule for, gonna give a speech on how to get hacked?
22:40 mircea_popescu somebody's gotta chip in for all those uber rides.
22:40 shinohai Oh wait, that's the guy that got phished and scammed out of like 1.8 million I think.
22:41 mircea_popescu asciilifeform can you explain your problem with micropayments any more articulately than "i don't understand this" ?
↖
22:50 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1538943 << didn't the 'cup of coffee' thread happen long before i showed up even ?
22:50 a111 Logged on 2016-09-10 02:41 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform can you explain your problem with micropayments any more articulately than "i don't understand this" ?
22:51 * asciilifeform brb - meat.
22:55 mircea_popescu sure ; but i don't think trinque was proposing the purpose of bitcoin is micropayments.
22:55 trinque I even said once "so then build Visa on bitcoin"
22:55 trinque re: coffee
22:55 trinque $s from:trinque visa
22:55 a111 4 results for "from:trinque visa", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Atrinque%20visa
22:57 * mircea_popescu is seriously contemplating the problem of subtleties.
22:58 mircea_popescu what the fuck's one to do ? there's a major difference between "all these people running around blathering about how bitcoin will change the world of starbucks are idiots" and "micropayments are evil". even though at the time a bunch of idiots run around like they run the place, the difference is negligible.
↖
22:59 mircea_popescu seems a significant chunk of disputes arise from misapprehension rather than a genuine difference of opinion an' what's worse, seems to me the trend is upwards.
23:00 mircea_popescu amusingly enough, this is exactly work hardening for social groups ; and for that matter how parties are born.
23:01 trinque people eventually find out that perhaps the reasons they agreed were different!
23:02 trinque there's another thing in there too, appropriately subtle. idiot taint, or something.
23:02 mircea_popescu i suppose humani nihil a respublica puto.
23:02 trinque satan touched this; it is infected.
23:02 mircea_popescu makes satan's job kinda easy.
23:02 trinque doesn't it though.
23:03 mircea_popescu it's a wonder actually, that alf's personal antigens of 1.(the usg is in all things - in his personal flavour of this) + 2.(if you lick my lunch i will starve today) don't completely preclude any action whatsoever.
↖
23:04 mircea_popescu you'd expect he'd be unable to get out of bed. i guess there's missing ingredients in the formula.
23:04 mircea_popescu but in any case the same tongue that licked tcp/ip also licked all of washington dc, not to mention etc.
23:06 mircea_popescu anyway. for one thing - transaction fees are micropayments ; like it or not, that's what they are, in the exact sense contemplated for deedbot.
23:06 thestringpuller ;;later tell pete_dushenski I have a car dilemma. I can't figure out what model Cadillac this is. If I send you pics could you decipher?
23:06 thestringpuller GRRRRRRR
23:06 trinque the public ledger did not cancel private accounting
23:06 thestringpuller !~later tell tell pete_dushenski I have a car dilemma. I can't figure out what model Cadillac this is. If I send you pics could you decipher?
23:06 jhvh1 thestringpuller: The operation succeeded.
23:06 thestringpuller :P
23:06 mircea_popescu moreover, nobody said the deedbot wallet is to be restricted to micropayments. that's obviously the angle to solve, from an engineering pov ; but to then on that infer that it is ONLY for such is silly.
23:09 thestringpuller don't micropayments normally amount to spam?
23:09 thestringpuller there's a reason I don't pay for my groceries in pennies...
23:10 trinque with a one megabyte block to serve the whole world's 10min of txn, your groceries *are* a fucking micropayment.
23:10 mircea_popescu thestringpuller the whole point is that if i want to pay deedbot 100 satoshi for whatever, i'd rather have this as an offchain txn than as a blockchain spam tx
23:13 mircea_popescu eulora provides a convenient way to do this ; but there's no rule one gotta use THAT particular solution.
23:13 trinque mircea_popescu knows better than anyone here that bitcoin did not cancel derived instruments of value.
23:13 trinque one of the coolest things here is that the wallet can guarantee someone shall be paid
23:13 trinque in the future
23:13 mircea_popescu how do you mean ?
23:15 mircea_popescu in any case, just think how cool it'd have been if i could have paid all these eulora noobs getting bitcents via bot directly.
23:16 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1538953 << let's have a working definition of a 'micro' payment.
23:16 a111 Logged on 2016-09-10 02:58 mircea_popescu: what the fuck's one to do ? there's a major difference between "all these people running around blathering about how bitcoin will change the world of starbucks are idiots" and "micropayments are evil". even though at the time a bunch of idiots run around like they run the place, the difference is negligible.
23:16 thestringpuller trinque: kind off target for my point. throwing change at someone for any purpose tends to devolve into spam.
23:16 mircea_popescu asciilifeform less than the price of a working nuclear submarine with all the trims.
23:16 asciilifeform i propose that 'micro' is any payment where the tx fee is within an order of magnitude of the payload.
23:16 thestringpuller cuz it takes work to consolidate it into bigger chunks
23:16 thestringpuller i see this as a deframentation problem than anythin (hence why i also consolidate inputs in an address before they become dust)
23:16 asciilifeform y'know, like 'mortar' used to refer to a cannon where the caliber is within order of magnitude of the length.
23:17 mircea_popescu mortar is not defined by that criteria. there is cannon with narrower ratio than mortar.
23:17 mircea_popescu the definition of the mortar is the angle./
23:17 asciilifeform today.
23:17 mircea_popescu even historically.
23:18 mircea_popescu fires under pi/4, cannon. fires over, mortar.
23:18 asciilifeform https://www.city.takeo.lg.jp/rekisi/english/img/p-mortar.jpg << illustrative .
23:18 mircea_popescu there's alternatively "selfpriming projectile" vs "firing mechanism"
23:19 asciilifeform ~that~ is solely 20th c.
23:19 mircea_popescu yeah.
23:20 asciilifeform but to revisit subj, i suggest that 'micro' roughly would be any payment where the coefficient of fee / payload is in the neighbourhood of (or even above!) 1.0.
23:20 * trinque is still writing response to earlier question, but who are you to say what the price of anything is?
23:20 mircea_popescu this is a poor criteria. there's little relation between fee and sense as it currently stands. i can send tiny payments with no fee because of coinbase age.
↖
23:21 trinque "below this amount is not worth it so sez guy on internet"
23:21 asciilifeform trinque: i can say when a deal is a bum deal and i won't take.
23:21 trinque so don't take
23:21 asciilifeform just like i won't buy an engine with 1% coefficient of useful work.
23:21 asciilifeform it can go and sadly rust somewhere else, in some other fool's garage.
23:21 trinque you know, *paying for things* solves a great deal of the world's got-something-for-showing-up problems
23:21 asciilifeform if i wanted to pay 50% fee, i'd go to western motherfucking union.
23:22 trinque you realize first data does 2tn/yr in transactions ?
23:22 trinque do you even have any idea how much money moves around per day?
23:22 asciilifeform well yes, because p. t. barnum.
23:22 thestringpuller well that's a misconception trinque
23:22 trinque no, it's not.
23:22 mircea_popescu the only problem here asciilifeform is that you have a firm opinion about an item you've not bothered to understand ; and the opinion is spit-glued on what may be the effigy of a live hyena except it;'s a stone gargoyle.
23:22 thestringpuller cause first data actually off loads most of those
23:22 * thestringpuller worked for first data
23:22 asciilifeform mcdonalds also does trillion or whatever per day.
23:23 trinque the number of transactions not the damned unit
23:23 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what aspect do you suggest i failed to understand ?
23:23 thestringpuller iirc first data was bought by someone for debt and for many years was used as a tax writeoff since it delcared 0 profit
23:24 trinque what in the fuck does that have to do with how many transactions they process
23:24 mircea_popescu deedbot is intended to have a wallet so i can deposit a whole btc with it and then pay it a little bit whenever rather than have to send multiple transactions. THIS particular aspect of "microtransactions" is rather opposite to the common conception thereof.
23:24 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1539002 << i must point out that this is a strictly temporary situation. miners have ZERO incentive to mine 'old coinbase tx' for 0fee.
23:24 a111 Logged on 2016-09-10 03:20 mircea_popescu: this is a poor criteria. there's little relation between fee and sense as it currently stands. i can send tiny payments with no fee because of coinbase age.
23:24 asciilifeform it is a plainly dumb thing to do from their pov.
23:24 mircea_popescu yawell.
23:24 trinque lets dance around everywhere because we don't understand how actual payments occur in the world, and are used to criticizing the ass-clowns in the bitcoin space.
23:25 asciilifeform trinque: what aspect, again, am i failing to understand ?
23:25 mircea_popescu o.O
23:25 thestringpuller trinque: from my understanding working there, the payments were offloaded based on bank.
23:25 mircea_popescu did i just not type all that ?
23:26 thestringpuller Yea 2015 metrics say 79 billion transactions processed
23:26 thestringpuller although most CC tx's go through first data i don't thin they process them all
23:29 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-10#1538962 << the way this knot is cut is that there are 2 usg, the one that delivers my mail every couplea weeks to the house across the street, and the other one. and i don't give a flying fuck what the dumb one licked.
23:29 a111 Logged on 2016-09-10 03:03 mircea_popescu: it's a wonder actually, that alf's personal antigens of 1.(the usg is in all things - in his personal flavour of this) + 2.(if you lick my lunch i will starve today) don't completely preclude any action whatsoever.
23:30 mircea_popescu a right, i forgot teh splitting.
23:30 mircea_popescu who/what belongs to which also changes amirite ?
23:30 asciilifeform i also do not care what the other one licked if i actually grasp subj. e.g., i don't give a fuck that it produced ada.
23:30 asciilifeform i don't do ritualistic epidemiology.
23:31 mircea_popescu well then!
23:31 trinque how is the proposed item different than any other accounting
23:31 trinque you paid your gym bill in advance for the month; you get to come in for the whole damn month
23:31 trinque and before that, oh my god, I'm holding your money
23:31 asciilifeform trinque: nothing wrong with that
23:31 trinque I might even lose it all and close shop, and then no gym for you
23:32 trinque then in sanity land you come burn me at the stake
23:32 asciilifeform attempting to bill the gym per-minute, with a 0.1 fee tx every minute, would be braindamaged though.
23:32 mircea_popescu why ?
23:32 mircea_popescu oh with a fee. no fee!
23:32 asciilifeform why no fee ?
23:32 asciilifeform why the hell would anyone mine these, other than if his mother dropped him as a child.
23:32 mircea_popescu cuz deedbot keeps its own accounts. no mining. they're not even reported.
23:32 trinque we were talking about a bot!
23:33 asciilifeform i never got the 'old coin' thing.
23:33 asciilifeform own accounts != bitcoin micropayment.
23:33 asciilifeform i only have objection to the latter.
23:33 trinque omaigad
23:33 asciilifeform keeping local bar tab is not 'micropayment'.
23:34 mircea_popescu hence my comment about "not bothered to understand"
23:34 asciilifeform sooo thread was not in fact about camel shit but cookies sweet ?
23:34 asciilifeform aite.
23:34 mircea_popescu rather.
23:36 mircea_popescu !~google hrotsvitha
23:36 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: Hrotsvitha - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hrotsvitha>; Hrotsvitha von Gandersheim - Women's History - About.com: <http://womenshistory.about.com/od/medgermansaints/p/hrotsvitha.htm>; Hrotsvitha of Gandersheim – FREE Hrotsvitha of Gandersheim ...: <http://www.encyclopedia.com/doc/1G2-3446400099.html>
23:37 mircea_popescu not a bad name huh.
23:39 trinque thestringpuller: I was establishing some ways to measure the current throughput of the world's financial system, not crediting any particular entity with this throughput.
23:40 trinque kill half the earth, you could still have a world where 1mb blocks do not hold all the financial exchange
23:40 trinque this is fine
23:40 mircea_popescu well looky, consumer payments aren't really financial exchange. they're you know, cc payments.
23:40 mircea_popescu financial exchanges are a different kettle of fish, usually happen on actual exchanges.
23:40 trinque right, accounting rather
23:40 mircea_popescu and considering the amount of frontrunning etc...
23:41 thestringpuller trinque: sure. but from my experience with payment processors they only exist because people don't know how to use money.
23:41 thestringpuller hence deframentation problem
23:41 trinque the inability to hold to a particular topic is astonishing
23:42 trinque more importantly, the willingness to ignore instances in one's own day where he bought a screwdriver or roll of toilet paper...
23:43 mircea_popescu you know i used no credit cards this year ?
23:43 trinque doesn't the paper count in this context?
23:43 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: or, iirc, any other year
23:43 thestringpuller trinque: lemme simplify - from my experience the throughput of a payment processor is due specifically to the devolution of the use of money.
23:43 thestringpuller CUZ CONSOOMER HAS COME TO EXPECT
23:43 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nah. it took a lot of finessing to geting here!
23:43 trinque thestringpuller: would you fucking speak in specifics
23:44 trinque instead of quoting slogans out of things people said (where they actually had context with gave them meaning!!!)
23:44 trinque *which
23:45 thestringpuller okay for instance the prepaid card exists specifically to gouge poor people. each time you use the thing, you have undisclosed fees (which was closed when russell simmons got sued over rush card in 2011/2012). loyalty programs exist to increase tx volume so people "spend more". every initiative at the payment processor level is to create bloat.
23:45 mircea_popescu trinque if paper counts then we got a problem because i suspect it makes txn uncountable.
23:47 thestringpuller trinque: from my point of view it's better to buy 1 year of netflix in cash from a store than to have them charge your debit card 12 times throughout the year.
23:48 trinque oh, and netflix received cash from you, did it
23:48 trinque "I have decided how the world works and will now run around picking phenomena from it as fits my narrative."
23:49 asciilifeform eh if visa dings him 5bux every time he pulls it from the holster
23:49 mircea_popescu at least it's one payment vs 12...
23:49 thestringpuller ^
23:49 thestringpuller the point i'm making is the payment industry WANTS to bloat payments. they prefer 12 payments to 1 payment
23:49 mircea_popescu this much is true.
23:50 trinque you are not going to find orders of magnitude change in removing that from the bulk of payments
23:50 asciilifeform even with 'normal people' visa, every payment chances to incur, e.g., overdraft fee
23:50 trinque loyalty does precisely dick for sales
23:50 trinque for example
23:50 mircea_popescu and i suppose if the ulterior point here is that of those supposed 100mn txn or w/e, 90% are just there to be there ; it has some legs to stqand on.
23:50 trinque ther eis a whole round of dead shartups on that idiot idea
23:50 asciilifeform so all else equal, they want chump to pay N times, vs 1.
23:50 trinque the 10% is still bigger than a block
23:50 mircea_popescu surely.
23:50 asciilifeform because potentially each time incurs 50bux of overdraft, etc.
23:51 thestringpuller trinque: This doesn't change the fact the initiative trend towards bloat rather than efficiency.
23:51 thestringpuller Regardless of how delusional the payment industry is.
23:51 mircea_popescu there's a bigger effect at stake : if you take the 100mn, and trim them to the top 0.001% say, to fit in blocks, you will get the bottommost tranche of this dutch autction say 1mn dollars (random number)
23:51 mircea_popescu if you trim the txn to remove bloat, and then take only 0.01% that still fits in blocks
23:51 mircea_popescu you STILL Get about the same monetary value as the bottommost tranche of your dutch auction
23:52 mircea_popescu ie, whether you fit 0.001% of bloated cc txn or 0.01% of trimmed cc txn, the smallest txn you include will still be ~same.
23:53 trinque there was another thread where it was discussed that the common person would merely operate out of an account held by his lord, and everyone bobbled heads at that because the framing felt good.
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23:53 trinque now because the real world example of existing payments is used, it triggers the immune system.
23:53 asciilifeform iirc the gypsies work this way already.
23:53 mircea_popescu well if it's discussed with slavegirls and a great pink fuzzy harem with soft velvety marbles and foggy complex pools... then yes@
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23:54 mircea_popescu incidentally, take that modern science of materials : i want velvety marble. always wanted it.
23:54 trinque I'm just gonna end every statement I make with "and there will be sluts"
23:54 mircea_popescu where the fuck is it already.
23:54 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: in 'doom II'.
23:54 mircea_popescu yawell.
23:55 mircea_popescu i wanted it from before doom!
23:55 asciilifeform i want the blue velvety nazi panels from 'wolfenstein'.
23:56 trinque sluts from duke nukem pls
23:56 mircea_popescu oh ? did i miss out ?
23:56 * mircea_popescu not much for shooters.
23:56 mircea_popescu !~google sluts from duke nukem pls
23:56 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: Amazon.com: Duke Nukem Forever - Playstation 3: Video Games: <https://www.amazon.com/Duke-Nukem-Forever-Playstation-3/dp/B002I0JBL4>; Duke Nukem Forever Babes Kitty Pousoix - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch%3Fv%3DyMGKN7jw37k>; Duke Nukem Forever - Actually Done - Page 4 - ozfortress: <http://ozfortress.com/showthread.php%3Fp%3D673315>
23:57 * asciilifeform last proper 'shooter' was 'quake 1' on a 486, at ~7 frame/sec.
23:57 thestringpuller http://twinstiq.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/07/duke-stripper.jpg
23:58 thestringpuller ^- i remember if you gae them cash they'd strip
23:58 mircea_popescu Framedragger log rendition of jhv includes >; and > in the url ?
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23:58 mircea_popescu ummm
23:58 mircea_popescu then again - beats larry.
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