Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-04-20 | 2016-04-22 → ↓
00:00 midnightmagic !up copumpkin
00:00 gribble Error: "up" is not a valid command.
00:00 midnightmagic uh
00:01 midnightmagic $up copumpkin
00:01 deedbot midnightmagic may not $up copumpkin
00:01 BingoBoingo $up copumpkin
00:01 deedbot copumpkin voiced for 30 minutes.
00:01 midnightmagic oh. I thought anyone who could +v themselves could $up?
00:02 midnightmagic i may have missed him, but anyway he asked me for +v
00:02 midnightmagic \o
00:06 mircea_popescu $gettrust deedbot midnightmagic
00:06 deedbot L1: 0, L2: 1 by 1 connections.
00:07 mircea_popescu midnightmagic> oh. I thought anyone who could +v themselves could $up? << i'm not entirely sure how this even works by now. possibly only l1 ?
00:13 midnightmagic but i'm rated by you :)
00:14 midnightmagic oh well, good denough to just have active users willing to do it.
00:14 mircea_popescu ups really only get hard once one starts being loudly stupid
00:16 midnightmagic mircea_popescu: so if you are majority owner of the new private mpex, did you just force a sale of mpex to yourself?
00:18 midnightmagic hrm. maybe the /topic needs and update for accuracy's sake re: +v being a sort of viral thing
00:19 mircea_popescu yeah possibly needs an update.
00:19 midnightmagic dangit. everybody seems to do things the exact times I'm not actively observing..
00:20 mircea_popescu hm ?
00:21 midnightmagic I am 12 days out of date re: MPEX sale.
00:22 mircea_popescu well if you actively observe a day every 12, you have a 94% chance of missing events.
00:25 midnightmagic It would indeed be a sad life were a human be doomed to repeat a 12-day cycle ad infinitum!
00:26 mircea_popescu hey, most humans historically lived on a 7 day cycle composed of a smaller 1 day cycle 85% of the time.
00:33 BingoBoingo $b 2
00:33 deedbot $b 2 is not a command.
00:34 midnightmagic Historically humans have been a fairly sad lot by the reckoning of reasonably educated developed-nation citizens. But no, it just seems that while I look away things happen that I find interesting with frequent regularity.
00:35 mircea_popescu mmm
00:36 mircea_popescu the notion that the aforementioned 7 day cycle / daily cycle human was SAD is so much fan wank, to survive in the minds of the incredibly sad contemporary population mostly on the grounds that hey, panglossism is easy and where would they meet a german serf anyway, to find out first hand he was actually having a better life than they do.
00:37 mircea_popescu ~nobody at any point in history was as sad a lot as the ~1bn dead souls captive in the said remains of "the western world"
00:40 midnightmagic Such a thing did I not say; but rather to assert both that a 12-day repeating cycle would be a sad life, and that ancient humans lived a sad and brutish life to which few, if any, modern humans would realistically adhere should they find themselves the unwitting beneficiary of what heretofore might be considered the romantic notion of historical displacement!
00:40 mircea_popescu the latter point being in dispute.
00:41 mircea_popescu the only crapsack world is the present, in the sense that the only time most nobody, historical or contemporary actually would choose to live, is now.
00:44 midnightmagic Either through modern weakness, or perhaps a lack of related distant observational choice of a pure soul about to be born, it would surprise me indeed to discover a current-era developed-nation citizen who when presented with a factual account of ancient human life would choose to return to primal ways. The romance of the garden of eden is similarly equidistant from fact as is the romance of classic
00:44 midnightmagic al civilization.
00:46 mircea_popescu "a factual account" is an exercise in nonsense. should this "factual" be presented in ideological terms alligned with the present insanity, and should this "tabula rasa" item be somehow atuned to same ideological terms (which has exactly no chance of happening, but they invested in promoting and preserving said idiocy like to pretend it's somehow natural and universal, like all other ideological blind tunnels ever), then yes.
00:46 mircea_popescu in all other cases, abso-fucking-lutely no.
00:48 midnightmagic I merely intended to convey the hypothetical notion of an actual life as experienced first-hand. Even 100 years ago frontiersmen arriving to the Klondike, as a more accessible example, lived a life so perilous and filled with hardship I doubt nearly anyone alive would choose to return to it.
00:48 mircea_popescu consider as a simple example palindromes, a 2004 film by todd solondz. it tells the story of a plain, common girl aged 13 that wants to get pregnant. she is in this representative of a small but present throughout history minority. for living in any other time, she would have had a husband, children and a family and been perfectly happy. such as is amply recorded, as undesirious we might be to look at the records.
00:48 mircea_popescu instead, she gets a mother that forces a curetage on her that ends up with a hysterectomy,
00:48 mircea_popescu and then explains the importance of abortion for to increase the qty of quarts of icecream in the house.
00:48 midnightmagic :-o
00:49 mircea_popescu the notion that this sort of trade appeals to anyone but the patently insane is... well.. patently insane.
00:50 mircea_popescu midnightmagic as far as the "100 years" thing, i'll retreat behind cazalla's words : http://btcbase.org/log/2015-05-15#1132928
00:50 a111 Logged on 2015-05-15 06:31 cazalla: ben_vulpes, comparable homes in my area are going for 600k, supposedly worth so much more than what my grand parents paid for their massive acre blocks back in the day where they were able to raise lots of kids on one wage yet i'm supposed to believe you're average australian couple who both work and pay for someone else to raise the 1 kid have it better because the total lack of land and bricks is worth $$$
00:50 mircea_popescu the people who went to klondike SOUGHT OUT the perilous life they lived. the people stuck in traffic sought out no traffic.
00:50 mircea_popescu nor the college debt nor the unlivable sky.
00:51 midnightmagic Amusing tangential but related example is Seth McFarlane's diatribe in 100 Ways To Die In The West, which in its agonizing detail describes wild west living in a way rarely seen in sanitized novels written by people more interested in Marty Robbins folk song. :)
00:52 mircea_popescu just because one style of lying is replaced by another style of lying doesn't mean we've reached any closer to "factual".
00:52 mircea_popescu 100 ways to die in the west or no, mark twain died in his bed after smoking two carloads worth of cigars.
00:54 midnightmagic The people who sought out the Klondike were people whose lives were often equally brutish, violent, oppressed, and hateful. Hard work was so hard by our reckoning that doing it at home or believing the lies of the thrice-remove rumour mill impossible to corroborate was enough to drive them by the thousands across land and sea and river for the promise of a life *where they no longer had to deal with
00:54 midnightmagic such hardship.*
00:55 mircea_popescu your epithets are about as interesting as the miners calling you a confused youth with no real understanding of the world.
00:55 mircea_popescu what is this, "brutish" ?
00:56 mircea_popescu stuff like "oppressed" and "hateful" just disolves in its own juices, it NECESSARILY can't mean anything other than http://trilema.com/2013/racists-and-socialists/
00:56 midnightmagic Violent and absent justice and civilization.
00:57 mircea_popescu except "civilisation" is what they had, not what you do. and your idea of "justice" is... welll. the sops.
00:58 mircea_popescu moreover, absent violence is a diseased state.
01:02 midnightmagic Of course were I pure hypothetical pure soul standing in front of many bags, into each one I could leap and choose what time I arrived, absent any cultural baggage and in any event viscera at all, perhaps I would think differently. As I am now? Disease, sanitation, violence, injustice, cruelty, exposure, starvation.. these are alien pressures to any of us. A rare, rare few thinking they could achiev
01:02 midnightmagic e a kind of fiefdom in such a past I think might wish to make the journey to begin with, but exposure to violence of the sort Soapy Smith meted out is, I think, something no one given the choice with eyes open could make, constitution notwithstanding.
01:03 mircea_popescu well of course as you are now you'd pick your poison. that's the problem.
01:03 mircea_popescu as he is now, junkie would like a hit.
01:03 mircea_popescu but this is no basis for any sort of discussion of the possibilities.
01:03 mircea_popescu and note that most people lived quite happily under same soapy smith. in fact, from experience a mob run town is a better place than a bureaucrat run town, without exceptions.
01:04 mircea_popescu EVEN when bureaucrat run town consists of "give everyone foodstamps", ie, it's not even self-sustained.
01:04 midnightmagic That is true. Can the poison be separated from the person now? Is it possible to live a pure life in that sense? I know some who do. Like right now. Friends. And while integration with our life is impossible by now, they are wistful.
01:05 mircea_popescu who's to know.
01:05 midnightmagic I know of nobody who was happy he was there except Soapy Smith and his gang themselves.
01:05 mircea_popescu well yeah, because happy people don't tend to make facebook pages
01:05 midnightmagic Still. Small example, admittedly.
01:09 mircea_popescu it's an intricate point.
01:10 mircea_popescu for one thing, there's the "we were younger then" thing.
01:11 midnightmagic That is true.
01:12 mircea_popescu in unrelated news, "This is your XQJ-37 plasma cannon. The only trouble is that since the old model XQJ was cobbled together from junked Amiga motherboards, you can only have one shot on the screen at a time."
01:12 midnightmagic Unrelated factoid: the life expectancy numbers shockingly low are usually calculated as an average including infant mortality rates.
01:12 mircea_popescu iirc this was discussed in the channel last time someone tried to use the "life expectancy" thing.
01:13 mircea_popescu however - it turns out high infant mortality is absolutely necessary for males to even consider starting a family. if there's 0 natural selection going on in the litter the task of extracting unworthy worms from the wailing woman's clutches to bang their head against a rock is just too damned demaning and ultimately not worth the hassle.
01:14 mircea_popescu which is part and parcel of why today's west utterly sucks : most of the walkers should have been dead before puberty.
01:17 mircea_popescu "oppressed" and "violent" and whatnot sound bad on paper - but in practice all it means is that "you can walk into two bars, one of which has sensibly shittier people than the other". choice is more or less obvious.
01:20 midnightmagic ahI hardly think a baby's chance encounter with chlamydia is a positive evolutionary pressure. Besides, if all that was the ideal then all medicine must be eschewed in service of the notion of natural selection, while a belief in our *ability to detect long-term positive evolutionary mutations* must be assumed perfect.
01:21 mircea_popescu not necessarily that far. merely pointing out that this car is worse than a horse is not necessarily a proposition to eschew all further use of fire.
01:21 midnightmagic I'm not going to be defending millenials, by the way. Their particular deficiencies appear to be maladaptive.
01:21 midnightmagic lol
01:22 mircea_popescu (i've had the pleasure to do exactly that - by the way, stuck in cab with old driver on avenida corrientes - which has been here since the ancient days before planes were a thing - and reminescing how this road was fine back when 20 men could ride abreast - but not so far today when 3 cars and a bus can)
01:22 mircea_popescu as factual as it gets, most buildings on eitehr side HAVE ACTUALLY SEEN THOSE HORSES.
01:22 midnightmagic No, it's not, but I mention it as an example of why the notion itself is problematic that infants should die in order that the remainder be presumed strong.
01:22 mircea_popescu the whole argument is that there's nothing wrong with infant and generally youth mortality IN PRINCIPLE.
01:22 midnightmagic Awesome. The cabbie rode horses?
01:22 midnightmagic My grandfather rode horses.
01:23 mircea_popescu midnightmagic he was 70ish, and was a small child at the time.
01:23 mircea_popescu living memory, sorta thing.
01:23 midnightmagic He hated them. He liked nice horses but as a whole found them capricious and unpredictable beasts harder to maintain than an old austin.
01:24 mircea_popescu exact same has been said about women
01:24 mircea_popescu generally by people not very good with them.
01:24 midnightmagic lol
01:26 midnightmagic I'm going to go murder some videogame people and make some geeks scream futilely at their TVs now; I mention this mostly to excuse myself from present conversation and so as not to exit said chat more rudely than I must. As always, nice to be able to use words bigger than two syllables, dude. \o
01:27 mircea_popescu hey, try eulora sometime.
01:28 midnightmagic ok will do
~ 1 hours 1 minutes ~
02:29 BingoBoingo A typical reddit user history https://i.sli.mg/IDaC8q.png
~ 36 minutes ~
03:05 BingoBoingo ;;google mit chain anchor
03:05 gribble Mooring Design - MIT OpenCourseWare: <http://ocw.mit.edu/courses/mechanical-engineering/2-019-design-of-ocean-systems-spring-2011/lecture-notes/MIT2_019S11_MD3.pdf>; MIT Sailing: Dock Renewal: <http://sailing.mit.edu/future/dock.php>; Helping Build Cities Through Anchor Institutions | MIT School of ...: <https://sap.mit.edu/article/standard/helping-build-cities-through-anchor- (1 more message)
03:06 BingoBoingo ;;google mit chain anchor peter todd
03:06 gribble MIT ChainAnchor - Bribing Miners to Regulate Bitcoin - Peter Todd: <https://petertodd.org/2016/mit-chainanchor-bribing-miners-to-regulate-bitcoin>; AndreasMAntonopoulos (@aantonop) | Twitter: <https://twitter.com/aantonop?lang=en>; Griffin Brown (@griffinbrown_92) | Twitter: <https://twitter.com/griffinbrown_92>
03:12 BingoBoingo https://www.reddit.com/r/Buttcoin/comments/4frv5e/bitbet_exit_unscams_shocking_butters_everywhere/
~ 16 minutes ~
03:28 punkman http://www.theguardian.com/artanddesign/gallery/2015/feb/13/mob-deep-russian-mafia-gravestones-in-pictures
~ 5 hours 14 minutes ~
08:43 asciilifeform 'Based on the information I have available to me, it appears that the MIT ChainAnchor Project is in part an attempt to get Bitcoin users to register their real world identities and associate their transactions with those identities. Initially this would be on an opt-in basis, however it appears that ChainAnchor has a longer-term plan to bribe and coerce miners into only mining transactions from registered users, eventually prohibitin
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08:43 asciilifeform g non-registered users entirely.' << mega-l0l!
08:45 asciilifeform 'n the ChainAnchor semi-permissioned overlay a successful miner receives a further additional payment (beyond the new coins and transaction-fees in Bitcoin) for completing a block consisting only of permissioned-transactions. For a validated permissioned-block, IdP-PI and IdP-PV must verify that the successful Miner’s public-key is found in the Verified Identities Database. That is, they both must ensure that the Miner has executed
08:45 asciilifeform the zero knowledge proof protocol with the IdP-PV prior to mining for ChainAnchor permissioned-transactions.'
08:45 asciilifeform everybody recalls, yes, that this endgame was obvious even in 2013 ?
08:46 asciilifeform miners will receive as much printolade as it takes. the ones who refuse - 'have problems' etc.
08:48 asciilifeform 'Allegedly ChainAnchor was looking into paying miners an additional premium if they mine on top of compliant blocks rather than on top of non-compliant blocks; a possible strategy for miners might be to use compliance as a tie-breaker when determining what side of a fork to mine on. It’s also easy to imagine tools like DoS attacks being used, as well as legal, regulatory, and even social pressure. Finally of course, once a majority
08:48 asciilifeform of hashing power is on board, a direct 51% attack is always possible (though I’d expect a more subtle approach to be used).' << ahahaha.
08:48 asciilifeform what it takes to make even peter todd barf!
08:49 asciilifeform reminiscent of ukr atrocities where the ss came and barfed
08:49 mircea_popescu heh
08:49 mircea_popescu all this, of course, because no miner cartel.
08:50 asciilifeform iirc there originally were ~two~ minercartels
08:50 asciilifeform but the american one went limp
08:50 mircea_popescu quite.
08:51 mircea_popescu the ustards, as worthless as the middle east showed them
08:51 asciilifeform and holy fuck, nearly 500 bizarrely-exponented keyz
08:51 mircea_popescu yet somehow inexplicably, the lengthy string of apologies and mp-worship does not seem to in any sense balance out the very short chain of vitriol and mp-bashing.
08:52 mircea_popescu wonder of wonders, this free world of idiots.
08:54 asciilifeform anyway the todd piece seems to suggest that intel finally coughed up their miner.
08:54 asciilifeform or will in near future etc.
08:55 mircea_popescu or stuck improvising for lack of viable strategy through events unfolding no one could have predicted, or or or.
08:56 asciilifeform one can at least dream that they will sink a few $trillion into hardware that we can then brick.
08:56 mircea_popescu they don't currently HAVE trillions, for any purpose, including feeding the apparatus.
08:56 mircea_popescu but maybe a bn or two, with any luck.
08:56 * asciilifeform bbl
08:56 mircea_popescu idem.
~ 1 hours 44 minutes ~
10:41 BingoBoingo http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=4224
10:56 PeterL ;;later tell jurov could you look at CoinBr, seems whatever mircea_popescu did messed up the account balance
10:56 gribble The operation succeeded.
~ 25 minutes ~
11:21 PeterL $up jurov_
11:34 PeterL message from Jurov : http://dpaste.com/1KPZ8RA.txt
11:43 asciilifeform http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/04/dram-bitflipping-exploits-that-hijack-computers-just-got-easier << run moar ddr3
11:48 asciilifeform ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://pastebin.com/raw/GPSHF04A << lulzy
11:48 gribble The operation succeeded.
11:55 asciilifeform from the dept. of definitely not nyooz: https://github.com/saltstack/salt/commit/5dd304276ba5745ec21fc1e6686a0b28da29e6fc
11:56 asciilifeform ^ die of laugh
12:01 asciilifeform http://www.rowan.edu/colleges/csm/departments/computerscience/research/reports/tr2010-2.pdf << possible explanation for rsa keys with gigantic exponent
12:02 shinohai congrats on getting phuctor back up and humming btw asciilifeform
12:03 asciilifeform ty shinohai but it isn't 100% up yet, as you can see
12:03 asciilifeform (only filling the tank and doing basic static tests, calculator will be installed later this week)
12:03 shinohai Baby steps
12:10 asciilifeform there is a very mass-grade-digging-up, time-capsule-like feeling to reading phuctor output
12:10 asciilifeform *mass-grave
12:11 asciilifeform it lifts the cover on - imho - a very interesting time period
12:11 asciilifeform where pgp seemed to 'threaten to go mainstream' and usg had not yet decided what to 'do about it'
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12:12 asciilifeform and so resorted to flooding the market with braindamaged 'embrace&extinguish' incarnations of it,
12:12 asciilifeform and then to spray out blatantly doctored keys etc.
12:12 asciilifeform the weakest link was always in the fingerprint mechanism
12:13 asciilifeform and in the basic braindamage of communicating with strangers for whom you have no hard point of introduction.
12:13 asciilifeform iirc mircea_popescu explained this some time in 2013 but i haven't the link here.
12:14 phf oh i should add date ranges to search..
12:14 asciilifeform phf: that would be quite spiffy
~ 15 minutes ~
12:29 mircea_popescu lol jurov
12:33 mircea_popescu i'm guessing users can't just re-enter their orders or something ? anyways.
12:33 mircea_popescu in other news i see phuctor numbers marching steadily up, 440/562 by now ?
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12:33 asciilifeform aha!
12:34 asciilifeform and these are just moduli that tripped the heuristic checkz
12:34 asciilifeform interestingly,
12:34 mircea_popescu well no, some are duplicates
12:34 asciilifeform the 440
12:34 asciilifeform interestingly, if e is not coprime with n, the key cannot be used.
12:34 mircea_popescu EL HACKEO ?
12:34 mircea_popescu o fuck me sally.
12:34 asciilifeform in case anyone did not know this
12:35 mircea_popescu !aprendamos y luchamos!
12:35 gribble Error: "aprendamos" is not a valid command.
12:35 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: tldr - linked item purports (pgp-signed..) to be account of the hackteam vivisection.
12:35 mircea_popescu here's a thought, nobody that needs to discuss computing in his dumb mother's tongue has what it takes to "luchar".
12:35 mircea_popescu and fucking luchemos omfg. everything is wrong with these people. EVERYTHING
12:35 asciilifeform well the phacts check out.
12:36 asciilifeform word on the street is that it was published in sp as a deliberate insult.
12:36 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i'm sorry, i can't go through the introduction
12:36 asciilifeform anyway tldr is that 'hackteam' used a boatload of commercial crapolade on their lan.
12:36 mircea_popescu and / so ?
12:37 asciilifeform and so got thoroughly raped.
12:37 mircea_popescu random derpy outfit nobody cares/cared about , what.
12:37 asciilifeform it was a niche thing. firm that specialized in writing virii for idiot orc govs.
12:37 asciilifeform the folks who give a shit - know who they are.
12:37 asciilifeform snore from last year.
12:37 mircea_popescu looky, even here, the faux is obvious : "solamente correos cifrados porfa thunderbird/enigmail" ? gimme a fucking break.
12:37 mircea_popescu yes it will brain-parasite a bunch of retarded hablaespanoles.
12:38 asciilifeform i have nfi. possibly 'protocols of zion' aha.
12:38 mircea_popescu o noes, the maid and the gardner!!11
12:38 mircea_popescu who the fuck is thatch45 ?
12:39 asciilifeform nfi
12:39 mircea_popescu "good this was changed, world wasn't doomed before". who the fuck is madduck
12:40 asciilifeform thread was about none less than RSA WITH EXPONENT OF 1
12:40 asciilifeform put this in pipe, smoke it...
12:40 mircea_popescu i can see that.
12:40 asciilifeform and no i have no idea who the zoo animals were.
12:40 mircea_popescu also dlitz has a point
12:40 asciilifeform or where they are now.
12:40 mircea_popescu this ALSO looks like it has parallel vulns.
12:41 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i am mostly reading the names so they're in the search.
12:41 asciilifeform gotta love the 'use openssl like everybody else, peon!' folk.
12:42 asciilifeform 'One note to consider: certification, e.g. OpenSSL on RHEL is certified to FIPS 140-2, so if you used TLS with OpenSSL as the backend the FedGOV/large firms/etc could use salt.' << gold.
12:42 mircea_popescu moral being "don't use salt", nfi that anyone does/would.
12:43 asciilifeform i have never seen it in the field. but it appears to be a webtard thing
12:43 asciilifeform perhaps the resident zoologists (ben_vulpes ?) could comment.
12:44 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-21#1454550 << it's always the same playbook, incidentally. and we're climbing up the same curve with bitcoin, also.
12:44 a111 Logged on 2016-04-21 16:11 asciilifeform: where pgp seemed to 'threaten to go mainstream' and usg had not yet decided what to 'do about it'
12:44 phf mircea_popescu: nah, worst case it doesn't return to a default (typically much more permissive) umask after handling the keys
12:45 mircea_popescu phf usure ?
12:45 phf yes
12:45 mircea_popescu aite.
12:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform but for the record, the brief, illusory "wealth" rained on idiots like ers et all had much more to do with zimmerman's work than with, say, murdock's.
12:46 mircea_popescu as is usually the case, i guess.
12:46 asciilifeform aha.
12:46 asciilifeform the notion being that anything can be buried beneath an infinitely tall pile of 'cheaper, user-friendly', mit-endorsed imitations
12:47 asciilifeform 'i-can't-believe-it's-not's.
12:47 mircea_popescu this even worked, back before gossipd.
12:47 asciilifeform i specifically remember what esr was a pill against
12:47 asciilifeform his 'open source movement' thing was specifically a counter to rms
12:48 asciilifeform (who and why saw rms as needing a counter-pill, i have nfi)
12:48 asciilifeform but i suppose gnu was seen as possible threat, as pgp once was.
12:49 asciilifeform incidentally i saw esr alive on several occasions.
12:49 asciilifeform he hangs out around this town.
12:49 asciilifeform a sorry wreck of a man.
12:49 mircea_popescu gnu mostly rode on the coattails of the pgp panic of 1990
12:49 phf in the end wreckers ended up being much more effective against rms than esr's oss
12:50 mircea_popescu phf different types of fanatics.
12:50 mircea_popescu it's almost like a tabletop rpg, this shit.
12:51 mircea_popescu asciilifeform hey, he lives on a boat, what could possibly go wrong
12:51 mircea_popescu [i suppose we're all too distant from our sailing ancestors to know what age at sea does to man]
12:51 asciilifeform waiwut
12:51 asciilifeform esr is not afaik a boat man.
12:52 mircea_popescu didn't he have a webbegging page up for a new engine back when the lulz at him started ?
12:52 asciilifeform orlov!
12:52 asciilifeform mircea_popescu has his crackpots mixed up.
12:53 mircea_popescu oh ers was just begging generically, at the same time orlov needed new engine
12:53 mircea_popescu i god danged mixed them up!
12:53 phf esr is the guy who's into guns
12:53 phf http://www.catb.org/~esr/graphics/raymond007-5.jpg
12:53 mircea_popescu phf yes yes, and http://btcbase.org/log/2015-09-07#1265178
12:53 a111 Logged on 2015-09-07 12:55 punkman: then http://news.slashdot.org/story/99/12/10/0821224/esr-writes-on-surprised-by-wealth >> and now http://esr.ibiblio.org/?p=6835
12:57 asciilifeform the progression from lottery winner to pauper is sop tho
12:57 asciilifeform consider moldbug.
12:57 asciilifeform or any other lotto champ.
13:01 mircea_popescu there's lotto and then there's usgotto.
13:02 mircea_popescu in the first kind, random derp ends up with some chumpatronium. being random he is randomly distributed re skill, and normally the juice leaves him. similarly if i took a marketable blonde and told her to go live with random guy on the street, which she will because they do what i say, he'll STILL manage to lose her over time.
13:02 mircea_popescu in the second kind, highly intelligent BUT SPECIFICALLY LOBOTOMIZED male is gently nudged back into the pen.\
13:03 asciilifeform how really different are the two ?
13:03 mircea_popescu very. first - guy is specifically unselected. second - guy is specifically selected.
13:04 asciilifeform i see more quisling than lobotomy victim re esr et al
13:05 asciilifeform he was specifically hired as a kind of zhirinovsky.
13:06 asciilifeform (tame oppositioneer)
13:06 mircea_popescu there's a deep reason that works, and that deep reason is that these aren't whole men.
13:06 phf none of these people are hired to do something out of their nature, they show up how they are, hence lobotomized
13:07 mircea_popescu knowing as we do in fact know that children normally develop into whole men almost half of the time, their presence is proof of artifice,
13:07 mircea_popescu or as the women call it, "civilisation".
13:07 asciilifeform and not only are they selected as the 'least likely to take the money and run to namibia',
13:08 asciilifeform but it isn't as if they were paid on actual hard money that could buy the necessary truck of kalash ammo
13:08 asciilifeform usg has a quite correct, from its pov, 'belt and suspenders' approach here.
13:08 asciilifeform my point being that the actual amount of 'polit reliability' asked of the esr folk is minimal.
13:09 mircea_popescu the issue is not political.
13:09 asciilifeform how much damage could a suddenly 'cured' esr do ?
13:09 mircea_popescu not anymore than "can i trust this eunuch with my dear roxy" is political.
13:09 mircea_popescu he just can't get it up, what.
13:09 mircea_popescu there is ~no cure.
13:09 asciilifeform i did not say there were.
13:09 mircea_popescu certainly not from outside, nor in old men.
13:10 mircea_popescu it's a case of "the cure seeker never really needed a cure - magic was always in him ; the non-seeker... well..."
13:10 asciilifeform just pointing out that 'roxy' is a pile of bricks
13:10 asciilifeform so eunuch gets it up one day
13:10 asciilifeform he will fuck bricks ?
13:10 mircea_popescu roxy is a sweet piece of ass, howdareyou!111
13:10 asciilifeform not this one!11
13:11 asciilifeform (btw i wonder how many readerz know who was roxy.)
13:11 mircea_popescu anyway, yes, could have done lots of damage. opened joint-venture with iran in lebanon lol.
13:11 mircea_popescu asciilifeform they will, in article i'm writing.
13:11 mircea_popescu well, packaging. but anyway.
13:11 asciilifeform i think pete_dushenski knew
13:11 asciilifeform incidentally how come we have no turks.
13:12 mircea_popescu noidea
13:12 mircea_popescu da fuck deedbot's goen ?
13:13 mircea_popescu ;;later tell trinque the problem with deedbot being offline is that i am forced into the dilemma of either turn ben_vulpes req for voice down, or else voice people outside of the model. i don't like either horn, at all.
13:13 gribble The operation succeeded.
13:15 asciilifeform is there any practical reason not to have spare bot ?
13:17 mircea_popescu i dunno, that it dilutes the cool ?
13:17 mircea_popescu ends up in a "did you forget to buy bread" situation.
13:19 asciilifeform Netsplit over, joins: deedbot- << l0l
13:24 asciilifeform btw thinking again about it, lotto is quite like usgotto in that the skill distrib. in either case is NOT random
13:24 asciilifeform i.e. the folks who play lotto, are selected in practice for dullness
13:24 asciilifeform in ACTUAL random distrib, you often get a winner
13:24 asciilifeform consider the folks who often rise up in times of civil war etc
13:24 asciilifeform 'in every private's rucksack, a marshall's baton' (napoleon!)
13:25 mircea_popescu this is a very good point.
13:26 asciilifeform any time you see 'below random shot' result, sit and think !
13:26 mircea_popescu they are both selected for dullness, arguably of distinct kinds, but ultimately very much the same : they're the sort women want to raise their babies [if not to make their babies].
13:26 asciilifeform some draft animals have 2 legz
13:26 asciilifeform whatcanisay.
13:28 mircea_popescu if roxy goes into the bath in front of the trusty eunuch, is she a pile of bricks ?
13:28 phf also stories about dimwits getting genie bottles always have some moral to them that's applicable to "real life". there's really no moral to solomon getting genie bottle, since solomon is that with or without one
13:28 mircea_popescu is it a wall, that the impotent can not fuck, for the not fucking ?
13:28 mircea_popescu is then the wall one fucks a woman by that gift ?
13:29 mircea_popescu phf this breaks down once moses gets box of covenant ?
13:29 asciilifeform when somebody with half a brain gets the bottle, all bets off.
13:29 mircea_popescu [hence why jews have the best old stories - they had the courage to do what good writers always do, go in the middle and subvert the trope]
13:30 asciilifeform pretty much the whole of usgology boils down to 'keep folks with brains from accessing the boojum'
13:30 mircea_popescu it has to, you understand ?
13:30 asciilifeform no shit
13:30 mircea_popescu you lot can not be trusted. the smarter you get, the less you can be trusted not to be dumb.
13:31 phf mircea_popescu: i don't think so, since moses was a man on a mission from god, it would be a distraction for him (from the mission) to choose to become a magi, hence the story
13:31 mircea_popescu phf did you read the story ? he did become a mage.
↖
13:31 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: even something as basic as ~time~
13:32 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: do you have any idea what, e.g., i, could do with a whole month !
13:32 mircea_popescu asciilifeform this, incidentally, is the one cure / amulet of protection / curse removal / whatever actually worth finding.
13:32 phf sleep ad libitum?
13:32 * phf ducks
13:32 asciilifeform phf is not wrong
13:32 mircea_popescu no, no, protect smart people from scaling up the dumb.
13:33 mircea_popescu it's almost as if the meta-brain was made of plasticine, and with a fixed origin. yes you can make it go as far in one direction as you want, but this thins it out in all others, meaning there's an exponential relation between "furthest out" and "furthest in" points
13:33 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: elaborate plox ?
13:34 mircea_popescu suppose you have 3.141592 squnits of brain. you get the option of making it into a circle [mens sana in corpore sano!!1] and you are guaranteed to be no dumber than 1.
13:35 mircea_popescu should you decide to make it go 72 units to the left, which you can do, what guarantee you can offer re "shortest distance from origin" ?
13:35 mircea_popescu 0.01 ? 0.0001 ?
13:35 mircea_popescu 72 * 0.0001 = 0.0072, and allow me to remind you what the mathematical notion of optimal play is
13:35 mircea_popescu it specifically says you're not supposed to play as a 0.00x
13:35 asciilifeform circles get raped by the motherfucking athenians tho.
13:36 mircea_popescu whoosh. say wut ?
13:36 asciilifeform the mens sana in corpore sano folx
13:36 mircea_popescu ah. yes, poor predictable rock.
13:36 asciilifeform aha.
13:36 mircea_popescu the problem with the "we'll just superimpose differently spiked circles into this ball of wrecking" solution is that well...
13:37 mircea_popescu works when it works.
13:37 mircea_popescu nobody knows why it doesn't when it doesn't.
13:38 mircea_popescu but the problem here to my eyes is that there really is no motherfucking reason for the meta-brain to act like if made of plasticine. really, figuring out the memory hole effect is THAT hard ?
13:38 mircea_popescu much like independence is deliberately not taught to girl-cows in agrarian societies, sanity is deliverately anti-taught to smart kids in socialism. so what ?
13:39 asciilifeform my first paying job was to observe telomeres shortening. so i understand this process pretty well. BUT mine are not any longer from this!!111
13:39 asciilifeform thinkaboutit
13:39 mircea_popescu you should, at least in fucking principle, get infinitely better results by just picking all the easy fruits and normalizing everyone's head to fucking semblance of sanity.
13:39 asciilifeform sometimes dun matter what you know or not.
13:39 asciilifeform as in the thread re biological process of 'i am not my mother!1111'
13:39 mircea_popescu well, fuck you. my teleomers lengthen by watching others shorten, just like my cock gets hard by watching women spend each other.
13:40 asciilifeform l0l
13:40 mircea_popescu agodami.
13:41 deedbot [Qntra] Phuctor Returns Vastly Improved - http://qntra.net/2016/04/phuctor-returns-vastly-improved/
13:41 deedbot [fr.anco.is] BitBet conclusion statement - http://fr.anco.is/2016/bitbet-conclusion-statement
13:41 mircea_popescu check out the news hub.
13:43 mircea_popescu oh there he is
13:44 trinque sorry about that guys. I left a tcpdump running to catch the SSL weird and filled my disk
13:44 mircea_popescu o.O
13:44 mircea_popescu this should be in the fucking bash lmao
13:45 phf !b 3
13:45 gribble Error: "b" is not a valid command.
13:46 mircea_popescu maybe the new bash works by searching for "fucking bash"
13:48 asciilifeform good nyooz is that all the !b's can be processed retroactively...
13:48 phf ^
13:55 BingoBoingo And the $b's
~ 15 minutes ~
14:10 deedbot [Trilema] But what about the slave ? - http://trilema.com/2016/but-what-about-the-slave/
~ 37 minutes ~
14:48 copumpkin \o/
14:48 copumpkin "Your withdrawal request has been received and will be processed. Note that all withdrawals are verified manually, and they may take up to 48 hours for approval. If 48 hours have ellapsed and you still haven't received your bitcoins please contact mircea_popescu in #bitcoin-assets. Note that if your account at the time of processing holds fewer BTC than your withdrawal, this order will be executed up to that limit. Also, please
14:48 copumpkin consider rating mircea_popescu with gribble."
14:48 copumpkin 1) "elapsed", not "ellapsed"
14:48 copumpkin 2) outdated channel recommendation
14:48 copumpkin (this in on mpex)
14:53 asciilifeform l0l,vintage
15:01 mircea_popescu lol ty.
15:01 mircea_popescu gribble eh.
15:03 copumpkin mircea_popescu: also, as general good practice, it'd probably be good to include the address and amount of the withdrawal in the message, perhaps with a date. Currently the message is a constant, so the signature on it feels a little less valuable
15:04 mircea_popescu not so sure that is good practice, general or otherwise.
15:05 copumpkin there's no acknowledgment of the parameters of the withdrawal. For all I know you think I want a completely different amount, to a completely different address :P
15:06 copumpkin the only way I'll find out is by waiting 48 hours, at which point it'll be too late
15:06 mircea_popescu it'll be too late for what ? i have your signed slip, it's what it is.
15:08 copumpkin yes, but I have no receipt acknowledgment of that signed slip. You've just acknowledged getting some slip, and are not committing to any particular slip of mine. If you mess up your book-keeping, you might dig up an old signed slip of mine making a different request to a different address, and I'd have nothing to talk to you about until after it was too late
15:09 mircea_popescu a) "too late" for what ; b) if there's an old slip of yours, it either has an address that was paid in it or not. if it does, then it doens't matter ; if it doesn't, you have a claim.
15:10 copumpkin a) the coins have already been sent to the wrong place. Perhaps I'm not "liable" and have a claim, but it's adding inefficiency to the system if you have to cover for a mistake which could've been avoided in the first place
15:10 mircea_popescu there is no such thing as "the coins"
15:11 mircea_popescu and there's no inefficiency in the system as it is, for it is simple. the inefficiency begins once you expect to have a 2nd "superior" channel on top of the slips. which will then have to be managed.
15:11 * copumpkin sighs
15:15 copumpkin all I'm saying is that with today's system, I have no cryptographic paper trail that you've actually received the commands I expect you to have received
15:16 copumpkin your gpg-centric system could give me that by simply signing a fingerprint of my commands
15:16 copumpkin I could then store those signatures and chew you out publicly in the case of a dispute
15:17 copumpkin "look, mircea said he received my sell order, but now he's claiming he didn't"
15:17 mircea_popescu you can do the same as it is.
15:17 mircea_popescu there's degrees there. the guarantee you're offered is that you won't be losing your balance ; not that you won't have orders lost.
15:17 mircea_popescu that part is best-effort.
15:18 copumpkin that's fine. But signing my slips still gives me a verifiable paper trail of the things I attempted to have you do, whether or not you guarantee doing them. It gives me an avenue to claim that you've at least seen and acknowledged an order, even if execution is best-effort
15:19 copumpkin oh well
15:19 mircea_popescu that's fine, but not how it works.
15:19 mircea_popescu this "that's fine" device, lolz. what's it supposed to accomplish ? you can't set aside what i say.
15:19 copumpkin I'm not setting it aside
15:20 copumpkin I'm saying that it's fine if you don't honor a sell order of mine
15:20 copumpkin if you don't honor a withdrawal, that's different
15:20 copumpkin "but I never received it", he says on public form
15:20 mircea_popescu inasmuch as you get your stat signed and timestamped, you should be fine.
15:20 mircea_popescu well, he says that once. what next ?
15:20 copumpkin you can keep claiming you never received my withdrawal request
15:20 mircea_popescu i guess i could.
15:20 copumpkin I'll keep sneding them
15:20 copumpkin you send me a generic reply
15:21 copumpkin I have a signed generic reply
15:21 copumpkin I also have a signed STAT output
15:21 mircea_popescu there's all sorts of things i ~could~ do.
15:21 copumpkin so I claim on reddit that I have a balance, and you keep claiming that you never get my orders
15:21 mircea_popescu it's unlikely i'd claim anything on reddit.
15:21 copumpkin you know what I mean
15:21 mircea_popescu in other lulz, reddit/bitcoin apparently mass-downvoting the story of bitbet NOT being a scam ?
15:21 mircea_popescu such community.
15:22 mircea_popescu copumpkin i don't, no.
15:22 copumpkin in some sort of suitable public shaming forum, like this one
15:22 copumpkin I'd go say "yo mircea, where's my fucking money"
15:22 copumpkin the folks in here support you by default
15:22 mircea_popescu and i say i dunno dude, never got it.
15:22 copumpkin before they accept my claims that you're being dishonest, they'll want proof that I actually asked you for money
15:23 mircea_popescu and so we go through this a coupla times and then i go you know what, just register a deed already, this is getting ridiculous
15:23 mircea_popescu as a forinstance.
15:23 copumpkin or I could just present a signed slip
15:23 copumpkin signed by both of us
15:23 copumpkin and then we'd shut up and move on
15:23 mircea_popescu except that slip can be held against you everywhere.
15:24 mircea_popescu such as for instance in divorce proceedings, or whatever the fuck.
15:24 mircea_popescu mpex is made to serve a certain view on this world, not all possible views.
15:24 mircea_popescu all possible views that don't conform can take a hike.
15:24 copumpkin sorry, you lost me there
15:24 copumpkin you already have something signed by me
15:24 mircea_popescu I DO.
15:24 copumpkin if my estranged wife goes to you and asks for it
15:25 copumpkin that can still be held against me in divorce proceedings as evidence
15:25 mircea_popescu ;;google daphna waxman
15:25 gribble SEC Knocks on MPEx's Door, Popescu Doesn't Budge | Finance ...: <http://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/exchange/sec-knocks-on-mpexs-door-popescu-doesnt-budge/>; SEC gets on the Bitcoin investigation bandwagon - Washington Post: <https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2014/03/20/sec-gets-on-the-bitcoin-investigation-bandwagon/>; SEC.gov | SEC Charges Three (1 more message)
15:25 mircea_popescu you can sign any amount of withdrawals you want for any arbitrary funds you don't have. it proves exactly nothing.
15:26 copumpkin but you've already signed my STAT output
15:26 copumpkin why is it any different to sign my slip asking for a subset of that?
15:27 mircea_popescu the stat is a single item. these are separable for reasons.
15:27 mircea_popescu nobody asked you to do your stat process in the same way you do other processes.
15:39 asciilifeform unrelated lulz: https://geektimes.ru/post/274562 << old suspicions of bicyclist racers with hidden motors finally proven.
15:39 mircea_popescu hidden magnets ?
15:40 asciilifeform electric motor.
15:40 asciilifeform sorta like what is found in fancy bikes from jp
15:40 asciilifeform supercap charges when going downhill
15:40 asciilifeform discharges into motor - uphill.
15:41 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo re lafond's article - iirc you can buy surplus cruisers ; as well as various knick-knacks like body armor from afficionado stores (here they're called cotillon stores).
15:41 mircea_popescu it's not illegal until you actually try to make an arrest or somesuch.
15:41 mircea_popescu asciilifeform kinda hard to hide that no ?
15:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: read the piece. some italian finally managed to miniaturize the thing into the frame
15:42 mircea_popescu but even so it needs a drive ?
15:42 asciilifeform thin shaft into the gears, yes
15:42 asciilifeform or roller, against wheel
15:42 mircea_popescu aa
15:42 asciilifeform several ways to do it
15:42 mircea_popescu roller is observable tho
15:42 asciilifeform possibly even something involving a pulsed magnet near the gear tooth.
15:43 asciilifeform i can think of a few tricks that won't be immediately apparent.
15:43 mircea_popescu i'd have thought nicely made wheel out of paramagnetic alloy ; then vary a field.
15:43 asciilifeform aha
15:43 mircea_popescu what i was hoping for.
15:43 mircea_popescu strip vertical and horizontal bits, as it were.
15:43 mircea_popescu not even so expensive, given that iron is crazy like that.
15:44 asciilifeform actually aluminum disk will turn if embedded halfway into a 60hz field
15:44 asciilifeform lenz's law.
15:45 mircea_popescu also. prolly better huh.
15:45 asciilifeform still works, albeit less efficient, if less than halfway in.
15:45 mircea_popescu of course i wasn't thinking of pig iron, rather, one of the fiberglass / ceramic sorta things with high magnetic dust included.
15:45 asciilifeform in other nyooz, asciilifeform is very very near to an escape from butugychag.
15:45 mircea_popescu no ?!
15:45 asciilifeform aha.
15:46 asciilifeform good, ol'-fashioned malware stuff. if the deal pans out.
15:47 ben_vulpes what gulag name will you use for this gig?
15:48 mircea_popescu "D
15:48 mircea_popescu this fox is wise beyond its years ?
15:48 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: myhouseschwitz
15:49 ben_vulpes hyuuuu
15:49 mircea_popescu the occurence of things that can't happen always takes place in april.
15:50 asciilifeform what miracles did we see last april ?
15:50 mircea_popescu a year ago is too far for memory to reach
15:51 asciilifeform l0l
15:54 BingoBoingo ;;google april in bitcoin 2015
15:54 gribble Predict the price of Bitcoin on 1 April 2015 - win CGB's ...: <https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=553123.0>; Inside Bitcoins New York: <http://insidebitcoins.com/new-york/2015>; Inside Bitcoins New York: <http://insidebitcoins.com/new-york/2016>
~ 25 minutes ~
16:20 midnightmagic fascinating.
16:22 midnightmagic Where *would* the trail be in the event a court were seeking assets.
16:23 midnightmagic MPEX would have to cooperate absent signed receipts sent to the user.
16:23 midnightmagic (In order for the hypothetical discovery to successfully take place, I mean.)
16:31 asciilifeform midnightmagic: prolly why mircea_popescu specifically does not spit out such receips, i thought this was clear from the thread
16:32 asciilifeform why hand out crosses to users for usg to nail them to.
16:33 asciilifeform incidentally if mircea_popescu really needed to solve this 'problem', he easily could, in cryptography world this is known as 'otr protocol', you encipher to a public key generated for the occasion, and the private key for it is later thrown to the wind for hypothetically anyone to know
16:34 asciilifeform so the non-repudiatability of the message only lasts for as long as the two parties wish, and no longer.
16:35 asciilifeform so until time T, recipient ~knows~ that message could only have been sent by mircea_popescu, but at time T+e it could-have-been-from-anyone as far as the confiscator, who finds the records, is concerned.
~ 16 minutes ~
16:51 mircea_popescu it becomes complex and thus prone to failure.
16:51 mircea_popescu mpex is very carefully designed with various such tradeoffs considered, an' i think i've done enough free consulting on the topic for one day.
16:52 mircea_popescu heck, jpm can barely afford it by the hour.
16:54 mircea_popescu midnightmagic the only legal proceeding contemplated will go on here. anyone seeking justice in the new world must have a wot presence.
16:54 mircea_popescu the rest - not people.
17:02 midnightmagic I *think* the OTR protocol uses a revealed MAC between the parties *but more crucially, a stream cipher for malleable encryption* so that at explicit termination of the conversation neither party can claim later that the other one definitely wrote something specific in the log of each. The deniable authentication protocol therein doesn't reveal it to the public -- only to the other party. Publically
17:02 midnightmagic revealing the key would break the forward secrecy. But I know what you mean. Still, as described all an eavesdropper would have to do to fairly strongly prove the authenticity of the message is stamp it and assert that there's no evidence the pubkey was revealed before then. That is, a third-party passively listening to the conversation with self-assured reliability could watch it happen, then obse
17:02 midnightmagic rve the pubkey was revealed, and itself could assert that the one happened before the other. The difference is subtle. In OTR the keys involved are supposed to be shredded at termination of the conversation. copumpkin here is looking specifically for non-repudiability post-hoc which neither OTR nor your described scheme could give him.
17:07 asciilifeform midnightmagic: the idiot complications of usgtronic otr protocols are irrelevant.
17:07 asciilifeform i described the basic essence
17:07 asciilifeform i.e. the session key being revealed.
17:09 asciilifeform as for 'non-repudiability post-hoc', see the epic gossipd thread in the logz.
17:09 asciilifeform you can't have 'fried ice'
17:09 mircea_popescu asciilifeform while it's true that the otr as implemented for say irc is dubious at best, his point remains :
17:09 mircea_popescu a passive observer could certify.
17:10 asciilifeform depends how the disposable key is revealed, and where.
17:10 mircea_popescu how would it depend on that ?
17:10 midnightmagic On the other hand, this way copumpkin -- I think -- can state things about the transaction that can't be known and nobody can say different. And MP for that matter, which reduces the transaction to trust.
17:11 midnightmagic "I warrant I will do this when you ask." "I'm asking."
17:11 mircea_popescu midnightmagic the chief problem here is that time has gone by and left copumpkin behind. he's still in this lulzy 2012 where bitcoin was a geek thing and the fashion of believing "technology will supplant humans" went unchallenged, in their own circles.
17:11 mircea_popescu it's dead and buried by now, under a pile of ridicule.
17:11 midnightmagic copumpkin is pretty realistic about things I think. :)
17:11 mircea_popescu not this one.
17:12 mircea_popescu this particular fashion is more antiquated than disco.
17:12 mircea_popescu occasionally reared its head around bitbet, "oh, you should do it so -and -so provably". met with the universal "fuck you, there's no way out of trust." which, obviously, instructed those who it instructed and washed off the rest.
17:14 * midnightmagic re-reads and missed something
17:14 midnightmagic yay I'm a person
17:14 mircea_popescu tech is a tool. yes, there are very good places where making things work by the cold equations makes sense.
17:14 mircea_popescu this is neither universally the solution, nor any sort of mystical geek messiah.
17:15 mircea_popescu (news at 11, you'll still have to talk to people, ipad or no ipad.)
17:15 midnightmagic I could see that sort of thing (non-repudiability) being useful for something like an exchange which operates under some kind of public law.
17:15 copumpkin not sure I ever claimed otherwise :)
17:15 copumpkin but feel free to demolish that argument I never made
17:15 mircea_popescu copumpkin excuse me while i strawman you into a convenient position for the benefit of the kids.
17:15 copumpkin no problem, I'm eating popcorn
17:16 * copumpkin sits off to the side
17:16 midnightmagic Mm. That reminds me, gotta make some coffee.
17:17 mircea_popescu i already had my sammich, doing a review of wild things, of all things. anyone saw it ?
17:17 mircea_popescu ~ denise richards' tits.
17:17 punkman they even had sequels iirc
17:19 mircea_popescu the tits ?
17:19 asciilifeform re the 'trust and machines' thread,
17:19 mircea_popescu apparently, i'm discovering, this is an entire market vertical, "young women + illegal sex". usually school setting, always some sort of lawsuit as to rape, corruption, what have you.
17:19 asciilifeform didn't we do this way back when, when i wrote the mpex review
17:19 asciilifeform specifically mircea_popescu's reply to same
17:19 mircea_popescu asciilifeform possibru.
17:20 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2013/in-which-we-discuss-datskovskiys-discussion-of-mpex << it
17:21 mircea_popescu aha
17:21 midnightmagic fwiw, I don't have much of an opinion one way or another. If I went into it knowing this were the case, I could find it very useful to have this property in my transactions with, say MPEX. But for, say, a *deposit address* on a webpage for an exchange, I *would* want non-repudiability as per, say, TLS message authentication extension in RFC .. hrm. That RFC where it's defined but was never implemen
17:22 midnightmagic ted, to prove "hey, this is the address they gave me, now they're saying they didn't receive anything but look at this txid."
17:23 midnightmagic The payment protocol thingy Gavin did *can have* also the property of saving signed invoices for the client including such information but nobody cares and there hasn't been a high-profile use of the PP where a dispute ensued.
17:23 mircea_popescu midnightmagic you get that.
17:24 mircea_popescu mpex being, today as it was when it got started, exactly the ONLY bitcoin service doing this.
17:24 mircea_popescu everyone else is "well this is what we print on the screen" and that's that.
17:25 mircea_popescu somehow, nobody has found it their life's mission to badger everyone into the dust for this, however.
17:25 mircea_popescu inexplicably enough.
17:25 mircea_popescu and for that matter i've yet to hear someone go "i'm not sending anything to derpy webwallet / webexchange / webusgtronism because htey don't gpg sign the address"
↖
17:26 mircea_popescu as long as there's boost, everyone's happy.
17:26 asciilifeform i'm willing to believe that there are other pgptronic businesses, 'other mpexes', but strictly on the same basis as 'life on other planets', i have no knowledge of it
17:26 asciilifeform just as i would never know about mpex if mircea_popescu had not awakened me from my cave.
17:27 mircea_popescu fine, only publicly known
17:27 midnightmagic I think I'm one of.. perhaps two people requesting it or trying to do something about it. We never know we need that sort of thing until one day we do.
17:28 midnightmagic (That I know of.) Oh Well.
17:28 mircea_popescu yawell.
17:29 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-21#1454940 << thing is, and see today's earlier thread in fact, pgp per se does not magic away the 'give me a place to stand on' problem
17:29 a111 Logged on 2016-04-21 21:25 mircea_popescu: and for that matter i've yet to hear someone go "i'm not sending anything to derpy webwallet / webexchange / webusgtronism because htey don't gpg sign the address"
17:29 asciilifeform still need a hard point of trust to know the genuine public key
17:29 asciilifeform 'do business with keys' (tm) (r)
17:30 mircea_popescu for preservation of lulz : http://archive.is/Wnjm2
17:30 asciilifeform l0lz
17:30 asciilifeform deleted already ?
17:31 mircea_popescu is it ?
17:31 mircea_popescu worst day in teh history of reddit, when it turns out that service closure WASNT scam.
17:35 phf i suspect snr on reddit is so low the event is not even going to be perceived as something that requires a cover up on such articulated terms. the burying is something in the range between "confederate flag? downvote." and "mircea? something not scam? downvote."
17:36 deedbot [Trilema] Wild Things - http://trilema.com/2016/wild-things/
17:37 mircea_popescu phf ofcourse, but the lulz of "community"
17:37 mircea_popescu the community of what ?
17:37 mircea_popescu OF BITCOIN!!!
17:37 mircea_popescu orly.
17:39 mircea_popescu phf if you peruse the thing it's obvious where it's at, the 10 dollars or less bin.
17:39 asciilifeform i have nfi why anyone here even bothers with reddit today.
↖
17:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform kids gotta go somewhere. they're not allowed almost anywhere else.
17:39 asciilifeform ~as interesting as talking to pigeons.
17:40 mircea_popescu notably, they're not allowed here.
17:40 asciilifeform waiwut
17:40 asciilifeform how's that
17:41 asciilifeform iirc, e.g., gabriel_laddel, is a young fella
17:43 mircea_popescu kids is a combo of iq and yo.
17:44 asciilifeform ah if in that sense, there are 60 y.o. 'kids' and why do we need them.
17:48 mircea_popescu well... reddit'll have them, and what are they to do. let the internet age pass them by ? miss out on the informational superhighway ?
17:48 mircea_popescu are they not people ? if you fuck them in the ass do they not bleed ?
~ 19 minutes ~
18:08 mod6 oooh, i heard about that 'information superhighway thingy'. they say we'll all be doing everything in 'Virtual Reality' in a few years.
18:08 shinohai http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-21#1454964 <<< well it is a source of popcorn drama and qntra lulz
18:08 a111 Logged on 2016-04-21 21:39 asciilifeform: i have nfi why anyone here even bothers with reddit today.
18:10 mircea_popescu lol
~ 17 minutes ~
18:28 deedbot [Trilema] The Next Generation - http://trilema.com/2016/the-next-generation/
18:32 mats http://dpaste.com/3B5PH7B
18:34 mats too bad I moved, no poop for you
18:38 mircea_popescu wtf is this lmao
18:39 mircea_popescu check it out, fmt provider. they sell the shit you give them for free ?!
18:40 mircea_popescu at least the cows get a quarter per gallon for the milk the supermarket sells at a dollar a liter.
18:40 mircea_popescu well, after they dilute it 4:1, of course.
18:40 asciilifeform it's london 1600s all over again.
18:40 mircea_popescu nm apparently they pay
18:41 mats lol
18:41 shinohai dafuq mats O.o
18:41 mircea_popescu til mats pw:rn is allbut einstein
18:43 mats i have desirable poo
18:43 shinohai iirc the Romans taxed urine traders, but did not know there was a thriving stool market.
18:44 mats i was unemployed for a few months last year and i looked into donating bodily excretions, ie, poo, blood, semen
18:45 shinohai TIL
18:45 mats the blood thing worked out handily but i never got anything better than food gift cards and free cookies, juice
18:45 mats semen didn't work out so gud since i was unemployed and, you know, not-white, not-six-foot, etc
18:47 mircea_popescu i thought everyone wants azn semen
18:47 mircea_popescu on the grounds that penis too small to get in normal way anyway
18:47 mats rude
18:49 mats i liked you better when you were busy hating yourself
18:49 mats anglos go rite to hell, etc
18:53 shinohai hey
19:04 mats hy
19:11 ben_vulpes one thing i know to be true in this world
19:11 ben_vulpes and that is that if someone claims a software library to be "minimalist" or "easy", they are lying through their goddamn teeth
19:11 shinohai >minimalist
19:12 shinohai >written in java
19:12 ben_vulpes "minimalist" means "i made an epic shitton of assumptions and then laid down a zillion lines of code in support of those assumptions"
19:12 ben_vulpes "easy" means "this shit is so complex it will take you a month to realize that it never worked in the first place"
19:13 ben_vulpes shinohai: i don't know on what basis you think this is relevant to any particular programming language
19:13 ben_vulpes eg common lisp has grown a decent tumor of the shit lately
19:13 ben_vulpes lately being, oh, my entire tenure on earth
19:16 mod6 <+ben_vulpes> "easy" means "this shit is so complex it will take you a month to realize that it never worked in the first place" << lol
19:18 shinohai It probably isn't ben_vulpes just the first language that came to mind.
~ 29 minutes ~
19:48 trinque ben_vulpes: yes but.. is it intuitive?
~ 29 minutes ~
20:17 phf ben_vulpes: to be fair common lisp tumor is mainly perceptible only to a special kind of basket cases. it is still one of the healthier ecosystems.
~ 18 minutes ~
20:36 asciilifeform phf: the emacs tumour (see logz, the 'flycheck' thread) is what really blew my mind
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20:36 asciilifeform traditionally, the populist chickenbrains folks avoided emacs like plague
20:36 asciilifeform but then somebody realized that it was next on the 'embrace & extinguish' chopping block, and the 'flychecks' appeared.
20:37 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-19#1376329
20:37 a111 Logged on 2016-01-19 04:28 phf: asciilifeform: you know they produced a whole series of those, f.el, dash.el, s.el. "modern"!
20:37 asciilifeform there is apparently nothing more alluring to the vermin than a not-yet-verminized ecosystem
↖
20:37 asciilifeform it is like crack cocaine, to them.
20:40 asciilifeform common lisp verminization will proceed on the same schedule as the emacs one, i imagine
20:40 phf although i wonder where you should start the emacs tumour countdown, sometime around MULE
20:40 asciilifeform e.g., in a few years a n00b looking for 'web server' will find ten qeergendered flycheckesque atrocities and - if he is very very lucky - one 'hunchentoot' in a state of disrepair
20:40 asciilifeform phf: definitely mule
20:41 asciilifeform the case of flycheck was especially instructive because, near as i could tell, the thing provided ZERO advantage over flymake
20:41 asciilifeform of any kind whatsoever
20:41 asciilifeform it was a shit sandwich ANY WAY YOU CUT IT
20:42 asciilifeform and yet if you go ~anywhere you will read 'flymake is OBSOLETE!1111 use flycheck'
20:42 phf heh, it has "modern" right there in the title
20:42 asciilifeform then you try it and find that if you need custom compiler flags (or, satan forbid, a non-x86 gcc) you're SHIT out of luck
20:43 asciilifeform whereas flymake uses your own makefile, which can be ANYTHING.
20:43 phf well, emacs is not outside hostile to "obsolete". iswitchb-mode greets me with "this function is now obsolete" on each load. why? who the fuck knows.
20:43 asciilifeform but oh noez it already existed and predated the flies
20:43 asciilifeform so Must Die
20:43 asciilifeform according to flies.
20:43 phf *is now outright
20:43 asciilifeform phf: you gotta understand their modus operandi
20:43 asciilifeform they HAVE to break your working box.
20:44 asciilifeform or nobody in his right mind would consider their crapolade.
20:44 asciilifeform just as i would have never even known about 'flycheck' if i didn't come across a broken (since fixed, by hand) macos emacs.
20:46 phf oh i understand. it's like the cl mode. they've been fighting cl mode for years, without success, because it's hellof useful. not only has cl mode now been replaced with cl-lib which prefixes ~everything~ with cl- (cl-first, cl-defstruct, cl-fuck-your-mother) but they also disabled highlight of all the cl forms. so cl-defstruct highlights, defstruct doesn't. to discourage the sins of the flesh, y'see.
↖
20:47 phf can still (require 'cl), and it will work, but discouraged from writing since there's no highlighting. next release using cl functions directly is going to produce deprecation warnings.
20:47 asciilifeform the only solution to this kind of shit is to BURN it out with HOT IRONS.
20:48 phf there's no solution to this kind of shit outside of "i use cmucl with emacs 19 and ilisp" or whatever, which is programmer's equivalent of mp's 2005 thinkpads
20:49 phf naggum tried to maintain his own versions of everything (i.e. burn it out with hot irons) and...
↖
20:49 asciilifeform this is pretty much the only answer.
20:49 asciilifeform and yes, people try to dodge it because it requires work.
20:49 asciilifeform but there is not actually any escape from it.
20:49 asciilifeform once the gangrene sets in, you either freeze your toolchain or give up work.
↖
20:52 phf heh, of course flycheck uses dash.el
20:52 asciilifeform and a buncha other turd also
20:52 phf it is like your experiment with depoeterring
20:52 asciilifeform hey that worked
20:52 phf "worked"
20:53 asciilifeform worked for ~everything minus a few proggies
20:53 asciilifeform (chromium, wireshark)
20:55 phf at the very least the demarcation lines become ~very~ obvious. it's either an old unix hand with one or two libs in dependency tree, or a modern monster that pulls 50 libraries and fails to install because of some poetterlib
20:56 asciilifeform this should surprise no one
20:56 asciilifeform just as, walking on the street, you meet men, and flies, but never a man-fly hybrid of questionable species
20:57 asciilifeform (outside of the mega-film)
20:58 asciilifeform and yeah, you will know the idiocies by their mile-long trails of 'pango', 'bonobo', and other strange deps
20:58 phf well, it reveals that core infrastructure is rotten, i assume "few proggies" is what's needed on your battlestation, because on a laptop i'm still for example missing power management tooling. even shell script based stuff depends on dbus or somesuch
20:59 asciilifeform at the heart of something like power management there is normally a 500-lines-of-c util that mostly worx, but surrounded for some reason by hairball of rubbish scriptolade
20:59 asciilifeform whosoever can be arsed, can try to strip it away.
21:00 asciilifeform if your stomach is strong, and little else to do (who?) can go, try.
21:02 phf right,puts you back in naggum territory
21:03 asciilifeform at any rate my gentoo-depoetteringizer does not magically fix the ecosystem, shat to all hell, no. but what it ~does~ do is to hard-nuke the autopullin crapolade and reveal who is your enemy and who is merely passive victim.
21:04 asciilifeform as in, what needs to be fixed, and what - burned with hot irons until not even wet spot remains.
21:05 phf who's going to do the burning
↖
21:05 asciilifeform actually carrying the exercise to a usable-to-other-people, well-documented conclusion is somewhere Nth on the list of things i would do if i had mircea_popescuesque levels of free time
21:05 asciilifeform so there is ~no one to do the burning.
21:06 asciilifeform presently.
21:07 trinque you've argued too well for burning the thing down all the way to the hardware.
21:07 trinque why would anyone fix *nix?
21:07 asciilifeform thing is, someone will have to maintain the forked (and, in practice, re-write, most of them are quite nearly unmaintainable) proggies. there is not actually a substitute for, e.g., wireshark.
21:07 asciilifeform trinque: because nothing else is likely to exist in our lifetime ?
21:09 phf wireshark is a kind of IDA or intellij, can just have them running on your most-sane-dev-box-du-jour
21:09 asciilifeform phf: presently there is nothing else to do
21:10 asciilifeform ida is a particularly interesting case because it is a TOTAL monopoly
↖ ↖
21:10 asciilifeform as in, nothing else even remotely approaches it.
21:10 asciilifeform i know of no even vaguely similar item elsewhere.
21:11 asciilifeform it is a collective-failure-of-everybody-but-one-guy - sorta like mpex.
21:13 asciilifeform it is precisely mircea_popescu's story about zeus throwing the other gods
21:13 asciilifeform a race where not only first place but places one through ten thousand went to a single winner.
21:16 phf i'm ok that there exists a superior tool that solves a class of problems. kind of like right now paying for intellij ensures that i can do a certain paid work in the most effective way available. perhaps if i have another interesting lisp project, i'll call alegro people again, etc.
21:18 phf i'm more concerned that there's very little ground left that's unpolluted on which i can build a house or possibly raise a barn with other people
21:19 asciilifeform the most concerning bit is the hardware extinction.
21:19 asciilifeform described here on many occasions.
21:19 phf right
21:22 asciilifeform it is especially concerning because the 'end times' situation, where usable computer hardware is expensive and you cannot rely on other folks having same one as you, etc. is actually how we ended up with the unix braindamage to begin with.
21:22 asciilifeform (how rms left the lisp world, think.)
21:25 phf end times situation is that there's not going to be usable hardware, because "nobody" needs it
21:25 asciilifeform well in practice the only usable hardware ALREADY is out of print.
21:26 asciilifeform (see thread re 'opteron' etc)
21:26 phf right, but on the meta level we're at the MULE point of cancer
21:27 phf naggums have a fit, for obvious reasons, but you can still keep on using that emacs, until "they come for me and noone's left"
21:28 asciilifeform this is why the sane fpga will have to be produced.
21:28 phf i.e. my cmucl runs on a clearly compromised intel cpu and can even do interesting things. imagine future(tm) where only way to run cmucl is by crosscompiling into x86 emulator inside your web browser ;]
↖
21:28 asciilifeform it is the only thing approaching a general-purpose pill against the garbage.
21:29 asciilifeform it is worth elaborating re what 'sane' means in this case.
21:30 asciilifeform it means that 1) design is published and is likely to remain available, no reverse-engineered americrud plox
21:30 asciilifeform 2) toolchain is not a closed x86 turd, and in fact can run on an arch implemented on SELFSAME CHIP itself.
21:30 asciilifeform this is a ~basic, necessary step~ to sanity of whatever any other kind.
21:31 asciilifeform (re: 1 - e.g., reversed xilinx 4000 series, is ~useless~, as you cannot buy it in any kind of qty)
21:32 asciilifeform phf: that 'future' is here already for iPnohe users, who have to run the js pc emulator in the browser to play gamez
21:32 asciilifeform if they want classic msdos gamez
21:32 phf right
21:38 phf standardize on 2010 hardware, buy n+1 replacements for all the parts, write program to talk to god
21:39 asciilifeform this is a computerized version of the traditional american 'survivalist' lunacy
21:39 phf :D
21:39 asciilifeform where you seal yourself into a cave with 10,000 cans of 'spam' and 100,000 rounds of kalash
21:39 asciilifeform and then ... .
21:40 phf i didn't realize it until you said it, and it's fucking hilarious, because i'd mock the strategy elsewhere
21:41 asciilifeform when romans sealed up a vestal virgin who had a fuck, they gave her a loaf of bread and a glass of milk
21:41 asciilifeform but when we do it in usa with 10,000 loaves it is called 'survival' somehow.
21:42 trinque this is why you wont find me maintaining ebuilds anytime soon, lol!
21:42 asciilifeform it is quite the same with 10,000 opteron cpu.
21:42 asciilifeform does anyone recall the jet fighter thread ?
21:42 asciilifeform where we talked about the junkyard in the airport in timisoara
21:42 asciilifeform consisting of a tall pile of MiGs
21:43 asciilifeform which had been cannibalized, largely, to feed their dozen or so working ones
21:43 phf (lisp machines)
21:43 asciilifeform aha.
21:43 asciilifeform i went to the house, where this was done
21:43 asciilifeform and had a machine made
21:44 asciilifeform it was quite like that airfield, yes.
21:44 asciilifeform i haven't switched the thing on in some years
21:44 asciilifeform because, among other reasons, if the disk dies, there is literally NO WAY to restore it
21:44 asciilifeform even if i find identical disk elsewhere
21:44 asciilifeform contents can only be loaded onto it from tape, and i have neither the tape, nor the tape drive !
21:45 asciilifeform (though schmidt did sell me an ~empty shell~ of a tape drive, in case i can ever locate the drive raw !)
21:45 asciilifeform the shell - before anyone asks - has the requisite cabling, ALSO unfindable.
21:46 asciilifeform this is what machine extinction is like
21:46 asciilifeform like to watch ww2 films ?
21:46 asciilifeform then you probably know that NONE of the tanks or planes appearing in ones made in past 40 or so yrs are genuine period.
21:47 asciilifeform real, e.g., 'zero' airplane, exists, in flying condition even somewhere, but do you think it will be wasted on a ~film~ ?!
21:47 asciilifeform i actually spent the first ~6 mo. after i bought the lisp machine, trying to rig up, with fpga, a mechanism to read the fucking disk
↖
21:48 asciilifeform gave up from lack of time.
21:48 asciilifeform st-506 incidentally.
21:49 asciilifeform wanted to not merely read the disk, but emulate
21:49 asciilifeform so i could get rid of the brick and replace with $1 sd card.
21:49 phf i know some folk who can restore 3620 drives, but's that's because that's what they do. i'll ask them what their solutions are at the moment
21:49 asciilifeform the man who did it for a living, had no solution.
21:49 asciilifeform other than a tall (shrinking, as i understand, today - to nothing) pile of drives.
21:50 asciilifeform some outfit in texas makes an emulator gadget, it costs 4 figures.
21:50 asciilifeform i have nfi how well it worx.
21:50 asciilifeform used, as i understand, in critical infrastructure which runs on 1980s minis.
21:51 asciilifeform at any rate, all of these problems are solvable IF SOMEONE CARED TO
21:51 asciilifeform the protocol was documented, i sat down, started doing it
21:51 asciilifeform it is all brute labour
21:51 asciilifeform would have ended up with a result, too, if 'life had not gotten in the way'
21:52 phf well the man who (still) does it for living is not necessarily the ultimate authority, he just does what he needs to do to get those mil contracts cashing in
21:52 asciilifeform recall the pdp emulator thread ?
21:53 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-02#1222211
21:53 a111 Logged on 2015-08-02 16:43 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: recall that pdp emulator fella ?
21:53 phf oh yeah yeah, exactly
21:55 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2015-08-02#1222246 << related.
21:55 a111 Logged on 2015-08-02 16:50 kakobrekla: heh, re pdp, apparently http://www.theregister.co.uk/2013/06/19/nuke_plants_to_keep_pdp11_until_2050/
21:56 phf some problems are probably better solvable than others, can perhaps build a st-506<->sd gadget in garage, can't do same with the cpu
21:57 asciilifeform it depends on what means 'cpu'
21:57 asciilifeform can build cpu for certain purposes out of 74xxx.
21:57 asciilifeform but not for, e.g., bitcoin.
21:58 asciilifeform but ok for, e.g., calculating dynamics of the tamper in hbomb.
21:58 asciilifeform or - at a stretch - pgp.
21:59 asciilifeform (this is mainly academic exercise, 74xxx do not grow on trees any more than 'opteron' does.)
22:00 asciilifeform for a while i got into the question of cupric oxide and other exotic semiconductor
22:00 asciilifeform with the aim of, ideally, finding a way to make integrated circuit in similar ways to how hobbyist can make pcb
22:00 asciilifeform (modified b&w photo process, or at least something not more complicated than doing colour photo at home)
22:01 asciilifeform but i did not - to date - get far.
22:01 asciilifeform made a sorta working cu diode.
22:01 asciilifeform that was it.
22:02 asciilifeform the most discouraging part is the utter lack of anybody giving half a tinker's damn.
22:02 asciilifeform (last i recall mircea_popescu gave somewhere close to 1/10th of a damn, he is to be commended for this)
↖
22:03 asciilifeform it is even worth considering that one could, in principle, compute on something ~other than a semiconductor~
22:03 asciilifeform e.g., an optical delay line arranged in some clever way.
22:04 phf define giving a damn. most people would see something like that as a hobbyist project along the lines of building a cpu out of nand gates, but funding it as an militarized alternative to modern computing?
22:04 asciilifeform there was a whole world of approaches that people spent their lives on, before cheap semiconductor, and entirely forgotten now
22:04 asciilifeform e.g., magnetic logic
22:04 asciilifeform (see logz!)
22:05 asciilifeform phf: 'give a damn' in the serious financial sense.
22:05 phf right
22:06 asciilifeform as it stands, it has a good chunk of the difficulty of space colonization but with ~none of the 'sexappeal'
22:06 asciilifeform unenviable field to live in.
22:06 asciilifeform costs of chip fab as we know it, and of orbital launch, are even comparable.
↖
22:07 asciilifeform and as it stands, 'hobbyist' semiconductor is roughly in the same place as hobbyist space travel.
22:08 phf spreading works
22:08 asciilifeform not even.
22:10 asciilifeform if i could make one thing, on a traditional si process, it would be an fpga.
22:10 asciilifeform the by far least idiotic item to make.
22:10 asciilifeform unfortunately it would have to be on a reasonably recent density, to be useful.
22:11 phf i'm very vague on the whole process, i'll have to read up on it
22:11 asciilifeform (fpga only became a seriously practical thing, really, in 2000s. you will find them from '90s but on MASSIVE boards with dozens of the same unit)
22:11 asciilifeform fpga also plays well with my 'specificity of diddling' theorem.
22:12 asciilifeform i.e. there is no effective way to subtly sabotage the thing if you do not know the victim's intended circuit layout.
22:12 phf for example i don't quite grok why can't press low density vlsi at home. seems like all or nothing kind of proposition.
22:13 asciilifeform phf: it again depends.
22:13 asciilifeform do you need to melt and refine the si ?
22:13 asciilifeform cut the wafer ?
22:13 asciilifeform chemically prepare the cut wafer ?
22:13 asciilifeform or did someone do all of this already
22:13 asciilifeform (in many modern plants, the things are purchased pre-prepped)
22:14 asciilifeform conceivably if you start with a sufficiently prepped product, you can 'vlsi at home'
22:14 asciilifeform but then the act is only scarcely different from using fpga.
22:14 asciilifeform you did not make anything, really, and you relied on a supply chain that is quite likely unstable, esp. if you become 'interesting'
↖
22:14 phf right
22:15 phf the jet plane problem
22:15 asciilifeform quite.
22:16 asciilifeform my take on it, is that if you are using some industrial product in this, it absolutely has to be something available in MASSIVE qty, readily
22:16 asciilifeform just as afghanis make kalash with hand tools, yes, but do not worry about getting ammo, it is gettable
22:16 asciilifeform (if they had to try to make ~it~ they would quickly fight with swords again)
22:17 asciilifeform analogously, the correct thing to make today would be not merely fpga,
22:18 asciilifeform but one where the physical package is brought out to a 'nuts and bolts' thing that you can screw into an aggregate, tiled, without making pcb
22:18 asciilifeform where 'computer' is simply this mass, of how many of these things you screwed together and attached dc power supply to.
22:19 asciilifeform picture 1,024 'cubes of computronium'
22:19 asciilifeform handily solves 'diddle' also - which cube will the enemy sabotage ? how does he know which one will hold what part of your circuit before you assemble them ?
22:19 asciilifeform even if enemy supplies ~all~ of the cubes.
22:19 phf "greenarrays"
22:20 asciilifeform aha but macroscale.
22:20 asciilifeform also 'greenarray' i will nitpick is not an fpga
22:20 phf right
22:20 asciilifeform but just a die with a number of conventional cpu.
22:20 asciilifeform (if small.)
22:20 asciilifeform fpga is also nice because, in principle, it can be optically inspected
22:20 asciilifeform (put a quartz glass window in it, like 1980s eproms)
22:20 asciilifeform structure is very regular.
22:21 asciilifeform thing consists largely of sram.
22:22 asciilifeform (modern vendors succumb to the temptation to put a great many special-purpose parts in fpga, e.g., multipliers, even whole cpu cores, etc. i am specifically not talking about their rubbish.)
22:23 phf so the idea is what drop $500k on an pure documented fpga, hope that maker crowd will help you recoup your costs, use fraction to run tmsr infrastructure? :)
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22:24 asciilifeform it'd be quite a bit more than 500k
22:24 asciilifeform and i have no reasonable expectation that anyone could recoup the costs.
22:24 asciilifeform ergo it ain't happening.
22:28 phf so what's the advantage of fpga based architecture as opposed to someone hypothetically investing quite a bit more than 500k into a high density risc, etc.?
22:28 asciilifeform the advantage is that you keep the design space.
22:28 asciilifeform can run x86 proggies today, and have the option of proper lispm later
22:28 asciilifeform there is also the advantage i described earlier, re 'specificity of diddling'
22:29 asciilifeform the thing is that neither of these concerns really interests anybody who has a spare 500k
22:29 asciilifeform (again this number is missing several 0's, but for sake of argument.0
22:29 asciilifeform )
22:33 phf well, more like 8086 and cadr today and proper lispm maybe in the future if somebody designs one
22:37 phf ok, i'm going to sleep. this was an entertaining conversation, even if a recap of many past threads
22:37 asciilifeform it is not actually hard to massively improve on cadr, much of its gnarl was that it had to be made of 74xxx and of weird amd ALUs available at the time
22:37 asciilifeform 'nigh phf
22:37 asciilifeform *night
22:38 BingoBoingo https://i.imgur.com/pXIE2y6.jpg
~ 30 minutes ~
23:08 BingoBoingo ;;bc,stats
23:09 gribble Current Blocks: 408389 | Current Difficulty: 1.7867830767168845E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 409247 | Next Difficulty In: 858 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 12 hours, 51 minutes, and 5 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
~ 18 minutes ~
23:27 mircea_popescu check out the alfwall.
23:27 mircea_popescu mats> anglos go rite to hell, etc << but i'm not anglo ?!
23:30 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: All pale folk look alike apparently?
23:31 mircea_popescu he just hates me because i'm beautiful.
23:39 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455022 << it's not JUST that, also needs another ingredient, a special flavour of "open". geek-open, when people aren't comfortable with humiliating idiots.
23:39 a111 Logged on 2016-04-22 00:37 asciilifeform: there is apparently nothing more alluring to the vermin than a not-yet-verminized ecosystem
23:45 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455044 << i don't comprehend how this can even be a thing.
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23:45 a111 Logged on 2016-04-22 00:46 phf: oh i understand. it's like the cl mode. they've been fighting cl mode for years, without success, because it's hellof useful. not only has cl mode now been replaced with cl-lib which prefixes ~everything~ with cl- (cl-first, cl-defstruct, cl-fuck-your-mother) but they also disabled highlight of all the cl forms. so cl-defstruct highlights, defstruct doesn't. to discourage the sins of the flesh, y'see.
23:45 mircea_popescu who the fuck asked anybody, and why isn't this just some text config file somewhere.
23:46 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455048 << i think naggum was an incredibly poorly managed project. i wouldn't think his experience informative, for anything
23:46 a111 Logged on 2016-04-22 00:49 phf: naggum tried to maintain his own versions of everything (i.e. burn it out with hot irons) and...
23:46 asciilifeform naggum fought alone.
23:46 mircea_popescu [yes, i've beaten tax authorities into the dirt on multiple occasions]
23:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform mens insana.
23:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: except you did not do it from the position of being a pauper.
23:47 mircea_popescu indeed not.
23:47 asciilifeform srsly you need a certain amount of mircea_popescutronium to 'jurisdiction shop', appear in court, etc.
23:48 mircea_popescu wouldn't advise anyone to try, either.
23:48 mircea_popescu it's one thing to try and run a marathon. it;s another thing to try and run a marathon with pneumonia.
23:50 mircea_popescu but in general - not that i expect this to be practically useful to anyone, as it isn't without the rest of the tools involved - the matter hinges on that fine thin line when liability can be personally attached. once you can start going after individuals rather than their precious "government" construct in the abstract, they pop like watermelons in august.
23:51 asciilifeform in usa, at least, 'individual' is more often than not sunk on the very day he has to so much as ~appear~ in court.
23:51 asciilifeform kiss job good-bye, etc.
23:51 mircea_popescu depends, it can be very productive.
23:51 mircea_popescu i've so far netted more money than the average us citizen's net worth out of simply selling cases.
23:52 asciilifeform just hiring lawyer for a week would wipe out ~99% of usaschwitz inmates
23:52 asciilifeform and yeah i recall, in logz, 'whichever hungry london barrister buys'
23:52 mircea_popescu in general, if you're not working with retained counsel, but have to purpose hire, you have no business going to court.
23:52 mircea_popescu diff jurisdiction, england.
23:52 mircea_popescu i meant us specifically.
23:53 asciilifeform but admit, this is 0 use to a naggum.
23:53 mircea_popescu this is how this works : if it is your field of expertise, you have legal team ready to go. either you're a complete imbecile, or woe be upon whoever gets involved. if not your field of expertise, you're either prosecuting in which case generally you want to assign the matter ; or else you're in deep shit.
23:54 mircea_popescu i admit, and admitted above.
23:54 asciilifeform so then. what should he have done against the tax inspectors.
23:54 asciilifeform the one option was, i suppose, to go stack.
23:54 mircea_popescu "what should man that discharged his rifle into his boat do ?"
23:55 asciilifeform pop 2nd round into his head
23:55 asciilifeform ?
23:55 mircea_popescu "man should not discharge rifle into boat". who the fuck told him he can run a consulting business without a tax expert ? even accountant level.
23:55 mircea_popescu he decided to do this incredibly idiotic thing after which didn't want to pay the slap on the wrist penalty that attaches to doing incredibly idiotic thing ?
23:55 asciilifeform tax expert would have somehow settled the 80% norwegian tax, assessed ~based on profession~, rather than actual receipts, into something sane?!
23:56 mircea_popescu at the very least would have warned him 2 years in advance.
23:56 asciilifeform and it wasn't a slap on the wrist, it was - iirc - a pretty penny
23:56 asciilifeform i.e. what he 'could have earned'
23:56 asciilifeform (they would not believe that he preferred to work 2-3 mo./yr in actuality)
23:56 mircea_popescu the term "slap on the wrist" is a business call. it stands correct as it is. your "pretty penny" is a housewife call. it's not relevant how much it is.
23:56 asciilifeform it is relevant to the man who has to pay and hasn't with what
23:57 asciilifeform and from whom they then take whatever isn't bolted down
23:57 mircea_popescu how do you perceive what he did (hurr durr i'm going to be a business) is different from average tardstalk forumite (hurr durr i'm going to be an exchange) ?
23:57 asciilifeform granted, to mircea_popescu on mt olympus none of this is relevant
23:57 mircea_popescu point stands : if you aren't a businessman, and don't have business skills, why are you starting a business ?
23:57 mircea_popescu what if he started flying a plane without ever learning math ?
23:58 mircea_popescu "i didn't expect solid items to be where the atmosphere goes"
23:58 mircea_popescu "yeah well..."
23:58 asciilifeform and if he had learned..?
23:58 asciilifeform would have learned to not even try, and then what, spend life working for racal norsk ?
23:58 mircea_popescu aha.
23:58 asciilifeform it is precisely the 'overcivilized' thing
23:58 asciilifeform over here in usaschwitz folks learn to - yes, not even try
23:59 mircea_popescu look, the dilemma here isn't "either i be eunuch or else i go fight for odin as a berserker"
23:59 asciilifeform yes, an accountant could have - and probably did! tell naggum that he was fucked.
23:59 asciilifeform how much good this did ?
23:59 asciilifeform how was he to get ~unfucked~.
23:59 mircea_popescu could have told him WHAT fucking each path would hold in future!
23:59 mircea_popescu this is not to be taken lightly.
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