Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-09-05 | 2016-09-07 → ↓
00:01 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:44/to:44#44 << we're on it, redundancy is the only solution and it's being implemented. dun sweat it.
00:01 mircea_popescu phf ^
00:11 hanbot >24 hrs of rain in BsAs = auto power outages. where's the unesco world stupidity heritage designation already.
00:12 mircea_popescu lol you were out ?
00:13 hanbot yeah. i cooked by candlelight.
00:13 mircea_popescu CHAR(111,108,111,108,111,115,104,101,114) = ololsher ?
00:17 mircea_popescu hanbot there are worse fates!
00:20 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:62/to:62#62 << the same thing is in principle true of cryptography generally (funny how it just keeps coming back to this again and again) : "no matter how long you make your key, it can be factored by adding more computers". this is true ; but it's up to you to make it irrelevant. the reason whenever someone does manage to ddos trilema / qntra / etc i tend to just wait is because time
00:20 mircea_popescu is working in my favour, and that is because their stack offers sufficient leverage so that the costs mount for attacker sufficiently faster than for me.
00:20 mircea_popescu this is what "works" means in this context ; and this is what lisp stack will have to satisfy to be not-toy.
00:23 trinque aha, certainly can't use because it's an amulet of past golden age.
00:24 mircea_popescu can, but at home.
00:26 mircea_popescu anyway, not to discourage research or anything.
00:29 danielpbarron http://i.imgur.com/X9EIOqQ.jpg << in adding more news
00:30 trinque ye gods, danielpbarron's couch has a rat king
00:31 danielpbarron not mine
00:34 mircea_popescu ahahaah these people are so cute, "“We are not racist and we are not Front National [the far-right party of Marine Le Pen]. We understand there is a humanitarian question here, that there are people living in misery, but we are living with incivility and a growing feeling of insecurity,” Jean-Pierre Clipet, of the FDSEA farmers’ union, said."
00:34 mircea_popescu THEY JUST WANT TO!
00:35 BingoBoingo trinque: You ought to know danielpbarron's leather couches have a buckskin finish
00:41 pete_dushenski mircea_popescu: they're savvy enough to know how alt-left media will frame them. "oh you don't want to date shaniqua because you don't like her as a person ? racist!"
00:42 mircea_popescu they're however not savvy enough to realise that the fact that nobody wants them means exactly this - that nobody wants them.
00:42 mircea_popescu somehow they bought into the whole sacred life thing.
00:43 mircea_popescu "the government" should intervene to make sure that calais looks like what group A would, rather than what group B would ? da fuck is this ?
00:43 mircea_popescu "oh, because group A failed to repress groub B because they thought they had a deal with the government".
00:43 mircea_popescu don't fucking make deals with the government.
00:43 pete_dushenski to the extent that they're 'playing by the rules of the prison', it's sop at this point
00:43 pete_dushenski obv, no one told them that their gov was indeed cancelled
00:44 pete_dushenski and any 'social contracts' flowing therefrom, or perceived to be flowing therefrom
00:44 mircea_popescu how is their government cancelled ? it's working exactly as they intended it to work.
00:44 mircea_popescu "no favoritism" they wanted ; and "equality" they wanted, and "down with corruption and old boys networks", they wanted.
00:45 mircea_popescu well what, this only applies to other people ? turns out according to government, migrants have more right to calais than whoever kulaks are complaining.
00:45 mircea_popescu for the very simple reason - the migrants need the government more ; and ask it for less. no brainer.
00:45 mircea_popescu think of it as town-sized eminent domain, if you will. govt improving the land occupation.
00:46 pete_dushenski 'their' government being the part that was cancelled. they created frankenstein, now he lives independently from the good doctor.
00:46 mircea_popescu heh. i have nfi how they imagined "decolonialism" will work out as anything other than "bitch, you're the african now".
00:47 mircea_popescu oh wait, wait, because if they say there's no social hierarchy there... won't be any. right, i forgot.
00:47 pete_dushenski just like in times of giza snow pyramids!
00:49 * pete_dushenski recently just learned of sikh practices around 'equality', specifically with regards to naming (all girls are surnamed 'kaur', all boys 'singh' until married). no moar caste sistam u guise!
00:49 pete_dushenski the revolutions just keep revolving don't they.
00:49 ben_vulpes http://theloadstar.co.uk/crisis-calais-hauliers-fear-new-road-blockade-will-bring-attacks-truckers/ << related
00:50 ben_vulpes http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3404695/Demolition-Jungle-finally-begins-Bulldozers-tear-Calais-notorious-tent-city-despite-protests-migrants.html << the bulldozing nominally began in january
00:51 mircea_popescu iirc the sikh thing is a few centuries old.
00:53 pete_dushenski yup. like 10 centuries old.
00:53 mircea_popescu anyway. there's a reason india amounted to ~nothing throughout its lengthy history.
00:55 pete_dushenski sorry, 10th ~guru~, Guru Gobind Singh, started the sikh naming convention in 17th century
01:00 BingoBoingo Oh Phyllis Schlafly is dead.
01:05 BingoBoingo $up fiddlerwoaroof
~ 1 hours 24 minutes ~
02:30 pete_dushenski http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/politics/special/whitewater/stories/wwtr940527.htm << oldie but goodie on hillary's deep knowledge of the cattle biz, particularly their, ahem, future. couldn't find it in the logs otherwise, worth correcting.
~ 16 minutes ~
02:47 * pete_dushenski returns to watching doped up and remarkably virile looking chinamen beat up on scrawny, malnourished, and probably 'cleaner' nodicks in 2012 olympics men's doubles badminton finals. gotta love the drive of the children of parents who knew famine.
~ 2 hours 6 minutes ~
04:54 Framedragger hey wb phf!
04:54 Framedragger i'm sure you're right, no bot would have survived. wonder if you could use sth like fastnetmon (if it can eat your logs or if you can format them accordingly?) to analyse the DoS / sql attack further..
04:55 Framedragger fwiw i stand by http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-30#1531731 - just have multiple things - and maybe in the future some system for autosyncing logs between places?..
04:55 a111 Logged on 2016-08-30 11:25 Framedragger: mircea_popescu: and i'll implement these things even if phf's bot becomes more reliable or w/e, because, decentralization!1
04:55 Framedragger how was burning man, then?
~ 5 hours 10 minutes ~
10:05 thestringpuller diana_coman: welcome shinohai to the mess of planeshift legacy code << I thought Chetty had gutted 90% of it.
10:06 thestringpuller the only thing left was the CS gfx stuff which is harder to gut
10:10 jurov lol thestringpuller
10:11 shinohai oh hai jurov, thx for your help I thought I borked something up again xD
10:14 diana_coman thestringpuller, the swamp is deep
10:16 jurov shinohai.. well it's me who is borkt. if you remember me year ago complaining of allergy...this time it's even worse
10:16 shinohai O.o Allegra!
~ 16 minutes ~
10:33 BingoBoingo Nah, Cetirizine!
10:34 jurov oh that stopped working. then desloratadine too
10:36 BingoBoingo desloratadine always sucked
10:36 BingoBoingo You could try Atarax
10:37 BingoBoingo Sorry, Hydroxyzine!
10:44 deedbot http://qntra.net/2016/09/hussein-bahamas-cancels-duterte-meeting-at-asean-over-hurt-feelings/ << Qntra - Hussein Bahamas Cancels Duterte Meeting At ASEAN Over Hurt Feelings
~ 18 minutes ~
11:03 Framedragger [testing more encoding madness for logs, plz ignore: Вопрос]
~ 15 minutes ~
11:18 Framedragger http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/221218755BB59C166BD88435267638C04F757D5630064CA207D228B4A7520F57 << phuctored through a known factor with e being prime - pretty neat
11:19 Framedragger (is deedbot no longer relaying new phuctorings?)
11:19 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/221218755BB59C166BD88435267638C04F757D5630064CA207D228B4A7520F57 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 165547811878389518608960162514440716527114124066258436669228493533987960317264094824576978438356666816304376509581147804207100789679550973366456163215055170915965745483899503094713195377098763883197788184283604067059487100451243802376158134871006515406296465375549052004071197012049372768297343983234273917627 divides RS
11:20 trinque Framedragger: calm down
11:21 Framedragger my english is not sophisticated enough to mediate a genuine point of curiosity *without* any implied frustration whatsoever
11:21 asciilifeform Nepal, Bagmati, Kathmandu << lel
11:21 asciilifeform since when did they even have a net pipe.
11:22 mircea_popescu since china.
11:24 asciilifeform mega-discount chinese pipe, apparently. box is not currently up.
11:24 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:145/to:145#145 <<< which reminds me, all the white knight butthurt at the slow, crushing discovery that an allegedly-black-certainly-male candidate is significantly more acceptable to the geenral public than an allegedly-female-certainly-white one.
11:24 mircea_popescu "oh but they have all these shesidents in yurp!!!11" "you're not yurp."
11:26 mircea_popescu the presiglassial ceiling!
11:27 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D02C7EB6E3B29FB9D1CD6BC815A0F28C162095115E62CAC36D79AD5D587D0910 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 165547811878389518608960162514440716527114124066258436669228493533987960317264094824576978438356666816304376509581147804207100789679550973366456163215055170915965745483899503094713195377098763883197788184283604067059487100451243802376158134871006515406296465375549052004071197012049372768297343983234273917627 divides RS
11:27 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/221218755BB59C166BD88435267638C04F757D5630064CA207D228B4A7520F57 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 165547811878389518608960162514440716527114124066258436669228493533987960317264094824576978438356666816304376509581147804207100789679550973366456163215055170915965745483899503094713195377098763883197788184283604067059487100451243802376158134871006515406296465375549052004071197012049372768297343983234273917627 divides RS
11:28 asciilifeform the shared factor, 78.188.162.184 << Turkey, Osmaniye, Osmaniye.
11:30 Framedragger three shared factors between nepal and turkey
11:31 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/t1neb/?raw=true << longshot, dunno if acceptabru.
11:31 Framedragger (i meant, one shared factor between three places)
11:32 asciilifeform https://www.worldlink.com.np << lulzy.
11:33 Framedragger (ah no, the kathmandu one is repeated twice)
11:33 mircea_popescu raju patel!
11:33 mircea_popescu ok this is pretty lulzy
11:35 PeterL http://reason.com/blog/2016/09/06/cash-means-freedom-which-is-why-so-new -- Not really news, just a good summary of the current situation
11:35 mircea_popescu and in other repeated twice news, http://67.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lox3somQ5C1ql4hl8o1_500.gif
11:36 mircea_popescu PeterL sure ; though i think the bureaucrats are flattering themselves. let them try to "eliminate cash" i say.
11:39 thestringpuller PeterL: well airports and trainstations are cash chokepoints right now
11:39 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:150/to:150#150 << if you go to all the trouble of building multiple freestanding items, why then vulnerabilize them so. the idea is to take the bikeshed out, not import it forever.
↖
11:40 thestringpuller best way to move cash is to put it in lock box, and ship it with a tracking number to wherever you're gonna show up
11:40 PeterL so I was thinking about hawala/wotcoin, would it be reasonable to make some sort of client that eats RSA messages in a sort of [date amount unit RSAkeyIssuer FromRSAkey ToRSAKey] set protocol? each Issuer would have a DB with balances they see, and using WoT could connect multiple issuers?
11:40 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Imma have to think on that submission
11:40 mircea_popescu no prob.
11:40 thestringpuller PeterL: I've already tried in practice. The failpoint is reconciliation.
11:40 mircea_popescu PeterL you mean like bitcoin ?
11:41 PeterL use bitcoin to reconcile?
11:41 asciilifeform PeterL: we had a thread...
11:41 asciilifeform $s wotcoin
11:41 a111 7 results for "wotcoin", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=wotcoin
11:41 mircea_popescu ...
11:41 thestringpuller PeterL: then how are you going to reconcile cash?
11:41 PeterL well, like bitcoin but without the blockchain bloat
11:41 mircea_popescu ahbahaha
11:41 mircea_popescu oh, you thin kthat's just there because grues hate you / were bored one day ?
11:41 PeterL reconcile cash by sending bitcoin between people
11:42 mircea_popescu you can already do this in, eg, eulora.
11:42 thestringpuller PeterL: what do you mean?!?!? Cash doesn't magicall transport itself.
11:42 asciilifeform PeterL: we had a 'what if gossipd also had a multidimensional hawala thing' thread
11:42 asciilifeform it turned out that no one has the 100kg of lsd necessary to properly digest the idea.
11:42 asciilifeform (and that it is a 'solution in search of problem')
11:43 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:161/to:161#161 << try moving to a cold, desolate place. almost always fixes this.
11:43 mircea_popescu decade or two later you can even try returning.
11:43 PeterL I was thinking it could be used to facilitate micropayments, things too small to deserve blockchain space
11:43 mircea_popescu and... eulora...already... lol
11:44 mircea_popescu you can pay one satoshi instantly and without blockchain bloat. today. go, do.
11:44 PeterL well, yes, eulora could be one of the nodes in such a network
11:44 thestringpuller yes lets put on our VR headset to send my bff 5 bucks for a beer :D
11:44 mircea_popescu PeterL and this doesn't suggest to you the solution in search of problem angle ?
11:44 PeterL I was just trying to think of a way to standardize between multiple nodes
11:44 mircea_popescu you jus' wanna turn nodes into networks ?
11:44 Framedragger asciilifeform: multidimensional in what way? simply that it'd have many parameters; or that there'd be many cliques / 'issuers' / whateva?
11:44 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'i want to send penny without bank' 'use my bank'
11:44 asciilifeform Framedragger: 0 global state.
11:45 mircea_popescu asciilifeform "i want to send penny wtihout bank" "bitcoin" "oh, without blockchaion, maybe little bank" "use little bank" "no, all these things have the disadvantage that they don't include my 3yo self in a central manner sufficiently"
11:45 mircea_popescu apparently this is a phase.
11:45 Framedragger asciilifeform: aha ok.
11:46 asciilifeform Framedragger: for some reason i cannot turn up the thread. but idea was something like a crackpot generalization of the idea of altcoins, i.e. every node can issue obligatory notes, if you will, in whatever qty, and their worth rests wholly on wot graph relations of that node, and strictly to his peers
11:46 Framedragger ahhh.
11:46 asciilifeform Framedragger: iirc nothing further came from this line of thought, to date, it is only interesting as gedankenexperiment.
11:47 Framedragger i recall someone attempting an implementation / spec of this 'everyone has their own currency' thing. just with wot being less central to it, perhaps
11:47 Framedragger which still makes it interesting :) but yeah ok
11:47 mircea_popescu it was common scammer fare cca 2013.
11:47 asciilifeform without wot it devolves into a not very funny joke
11:47 asciilifeform a la 'ripple' etc.
11:47 mircea_popescu right after solidcoin pos stuff.
11:47 Framedragger agree.
11:48 asciilifeform with wot, it is, at best, a mechanized version of how banking worked pre-1700s or so.
11:49 mircea_popescu "mechanized" is stupidified, generally. careful with mecanizing stuff for the sake of feeling like you just came out of a us college.
11:49 asciilifeform the reason i occasionally return to the idea in my notebook is that it is the only solution i know of thus far to the idiocy of mining.
11:49 mircea_popescu it's the feeling of "i've just been indescribably stupid."
11:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform even with it mining won't go away.
11:49 mircea_popescu in fact, mining is included in the gossipd implementation of privacy ; re-read the example given there to phf.
11:50 asciilifeform link?
11:50 mircea_popescu that "i heard from X and Y" is exactly mining.
11:50 mircea_popescu lemme dig it up then.
11:55 asciilifeform i am speaking of 'mining' in the bitcoin sense, where a stranger can connect and shoot your difficulty to pluto and leave, etc.
11:55 mircea_popescu asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-16#1467087 << and around
11:55 a111 Logged on 2016-05-16 14:04 mircea_popescu: similarily, the ACTUAL order of message, and the presence or absence of "j/k" messages in there can a) never be established beyond reasonable doubt and b) can only be usefully guessed by people. which is to say, well connected, intelligent nodes.
11:56 asciilifeform ( as per http://trilema.com/2014/the-woes-of-altcoin-or-why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-cryptocurrencies )
11:56 mircea_popescu yeah, as contemplated in gossipd there is no difficulty. but mining, still exists.
11:56 mircea_popescu ie, what makes my knowledge secure and the third party's knowledge dubious is... the people who i know to mine it \for me.
11:56 asciilifeform in that sense BingoBoingo pulling weeds in his corn field is 'mining'
11:56 mircea_popescu no no. the sense is correct.
11:57 asciilifeform gossip model does not rely on 'arms race' with hardware and mains current.
11:57 mircea_popescu true.
11:58 mircea_popescu at least on appearances. but now model what someone trying to sybil would be doing.
11:58 mircea_popescu the armsrace is still there ; subtlier.
11:58 asciilifeform he'd be pulling own cock.
11:58 asciilifeform and, at best, ninjashogunning.
11:58 mircea_popescu no, he's be using the algo that beat sedol to create as many accounts as his electricity can power, and fuzz everyone out.
11:58 asciilifeform (how else would there be any connection between the sybils and actual people?)
11:59 mircea_popescu you understand HOW music changed from music to idiocy, yes ?
11:59 asciilifeform what 'accounts'.
11:59 asciilifeform why would you or i wot to any of him.
11:59 mircea_popescu how do you currently distinguish between two names ?
11:59 asciilifeform i get an rsa-signed 'hi, i'ma fella named mircea' etc.
11:59 asciilifeform same as everybody.
12:00 mircea_popescu and how do you distinguish between indiancandy and covertress ?
12:00 asciilifeform same way i distinguish between the birds in my oak tree.
12:00 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-17#1523269 << re-read this, and think about it. if i want to attack you, i make literally a trillion names ; then i sort them in binary tries like that ; then i send them to chatter at you.
12:00 a111 Logged on 2016-08-17 17:02 mircea_popescu: Framedragger the reason there's a lot of credence in phf's perhaps harsh criticism is http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-make-money-on-the-internet-while-pretending-you-know-what-youre-talking-about-and-accumulating-a-legion-of-mindless-followers-for-fun-and-profit/
12:00 asciilifeform (for the most part, i don't. except that one time there was this odd parrot-like... etc)
12:00 mircea_popescu your brain will pick patterns, and now i managed to get a few inside through fuzzing.
12:01 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: we already did this exercise. in 1990s. it was called spam.
12:01 asciilifeform and resulted in folks quitting email.
12:01 mircea_popescu no, we did not.
12:01 asciilifeform if there were 10,001 covertresses, i would read ~none~ of them
12:01 asciilifeform and make it stick.
12:01 mircea_popescu spam was always point-driven. it's easy to fight the man who wants to steal.
12:01 mircea_popescu yes. but how do you distinguish the one that isn't, from the one that merely appears not to be, from the other 9999 ?
12:02 mircea_popescu seriously read that 2nd link.
12:02 asciilifeform i won't. as knuth does not.
12:02 mircea_popescu so then your gossipd just died ?
12:02 asciilifeform quite alive. all of my peerings with actual people still work.
12:02 mircea_popescu "actual people" you knew from before.
12:03 mircea_popescu you gotta constantly get new girlfriends.
12:03 mircea_popescu the moment you stop this, you're too old for life.
12:03 asciilifeform spam raises the bar to 'i want to be a man', yes. but cannot raise it infinitely high.
12:03 mircea_popescu well if you won't read and address the points there we'll have to stop here, i'm not restating it.
12:04 asciilifeform i did read.
12:04 mircea_popescu then address the points.
12:04 asciilifeform $s razi
12:04 a111 3 results for "razi", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=razi
12:05 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2014-10-16#876727 << where i address the point.
12:05 a111 Logged on 2014-10-16 00:01 asciilifeform: consider ancient scholars like the persian Razi.
12:05 mircea_popescu the thing you do not wish to say, because you do not wish it to be turned to dust under scrutiny, is that razi is either dead, or else depends on sub-razis-1 through n
12:05 mircea_popescu who, perhaps, in turn.
12:05 asciilifeform no, let's do it
12:05 mircea_popescu the weakness of this scheme is exactly as described : fuzzing and the binary tree propagates a few through it all the way to you.
12:06 asciilifeform to get through 10,000,001 enemy meat puppets, the would-be proselyte will have to fight his way through jungle, desert, etc.
12:06 mircea_popescu nobody gives a shit about him.
12:06 mircea_popescu the discussion is carried from your pov. you observe an endless field of worms. what next ?
12:07 asciilifeform quite certainly not. but if he is found worthy by all concentric N circles of L_n wot arount razi, then he is worth testing.
12:07 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-06#1534898 << i guess that *would* then be a truly single point of failure, in terms of historical reliability, hm. not an easy problem
12:07 a111 Logged on 2016-09-06 15:39 mircea_popescu: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:150/to:150#150 << if you go to all the trouble of building multiple freestanding items, why then vulnerabilize them so. the idea is to take the bikeshed out, not import it forever.
12:08 mircea_popescu Framedragger people want, sensibly, to reduce the things they worry about. however, they often get confused in between things they could not worry about but have to, and things they can't not worry about but don't have to.
12:08 mircea_popescu this difference is central, and obviously not only elided in school - deliberately buried in school.
12:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: ~entire point of wotronics is to eliminate 'field of worms as far as the eye can see in all directions' as a thing of this world.
12:08 mircea_popescu there's a reason you feed your horse with your own hand, even if you don't have to.
12:08 Framedragger hm, true.
12:09 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no, that's the whole delusion of wot, in the minds of aspiring shamans such as yourself.
12:09 mircea_popescu the reality of the wot is that it provides the tools to make, perhaps, attacks unfeasibly costly. PERHAPS.
12:11 mircea_popescu and this "making attacks costly" is exactly mining, any way you turn it.
12:12 asciilifeform incidentally what the hell is wrong with 'i won't answer message from $newkey unless an $oldkey vouched for him' ?
12:12 mircea_popescu that the problem recurses to oldkey now.
12:12 asciilifeform it recurses to meatspace.
12:12 mircea_popescu ie, "you just want to and someone else gotta do the work now"
12:12 asciilifeform which does not have such a thing as 0-cost sybilmaking.
12:12 mircea_popescu "meatspace" is what idiots say.
12:12 mircea_popescu really, you want your source of power to be chats in coffee shops ?
12:13 asciilifeform fact is, enemy has not yet devised a means of making faux people at 0cost.
12:13 mircea_popescu fuck that. i been there, done that, it's enough to run a smallish trown and no more.
12:13 asciilifeform and mircea_popescu's gurl zoo is made of what.
12:13 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes, but with the go algo it's come pretty damned close.
12:13 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it'd surprise you to find that less than half my harem finds itself in my presence at any given time.
12:14 mircea_popescu new girls can go for years without meeting most of the others ; forget all.
12:14 asciilifeform i dun see how the go machine relates.
12:14 asciilifeform it works on a narrow and well-defined toy problem.
12:14 asciilifeform there is no risk of a mechanical mircea_popescutron.
12:14 mircea_popescu prior to the sedol debacle, there was a simple "let's play go" solution to human vs machine
12:14 mircea_popescu now there isn't really.
12:15 * trinque did wonder about the magic which kept many women in close quarters with each other without killing each other
12:15 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: now there is a 'complicated' 'let's talk for five minutes'.
12:16 asciilifeform incidentally, less time than it takes to tell man from muppet by playing go (how many folks even play above 1995 computer level ? does mircea_popescu ? )
12:16 mircea_popescu the issue of "muppet" is complicated.
12:17 mircea_popescu and of course, the discussion is carried in terms of go but isn't ABOUT go. it's about "human only tasks"
12:19 mircea_popescu trinque my shit is uniquely confusing. i call them slaves, because it is the proper term. yet they have more personal freedom and general, intellectual and otherwise independence than any "liberated" hear-her-roar-in-english-only.
12:20 * mircea_popescu isn't in the business of driving people nuts.
12:21 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i don't grasp the need for a global 'humanity filter.' working wotronics implies that folks will assortively peer by degree of muppetry, and this imho suffices.
12:21 asciilifeform let the covertresses live with own kind. and the knuthes - own. etc
12:21 mircea_popescu anyway, yes asciilifeform has a point in that penis makes for a fine way to make friends. the thing is that as i near 40, i'd dearly love some alternative method. this thing won't last forever.
12:22 mircea_popescu asciilifeform there is no "kind" you racist lout you.
12:22 asciilifeform lel
12:22 mircea_popescu what kind ? womankind? pshhh
12:22 asciilifeform womans!111
12:22 mircea_popescu anyway. the "suffices" thing is all a matter of who's attacking you and why. keeping each other's balances in excel spreadsheets also "Suffices".
12:23 mircea_popescu but the whole fucking point of technology is to broadly open new cunts.
12:24 mircea_popescu and to revisit <asciilifeform> fact is, enemy has not yet devised a means of making faux people at 0cost. : please watch the news sometime.
12:24 asciilifeform these aren't people.
12:24 mircea_popescu the talking heads are 0cost faux people ; and most of their subject matter, from hussein bahamas down.
12:24 asciilifeform and don't fool actual people for so much as 5 seconds.
12:24 mircea_popescu heh.
12:25 mircea_popescu do you ever count how much of this "i want this not that therefore the facts are so and so" you do in an average day ?
12:25 asciilifeform how is this even in principle possible ?
12:25 mircea_popescu you just did it!
12:25 asciilifeform the counting, i mean.
12:26 mircea_popescu "i want my theory to work therefore network anchors aren't people, evidently"
12:26 asciilifeform 'esteemed sir, the defective transistors were packaged separately for your convenience.'
12:26 mircea_popescu oh. well, the same way everything else is done, you match against the structure and increment a counter.
12:26 mircea_popescu not so.
12:26 mircea_popescu the beauty of language is that it allows this sort of analysis.
12:26 thestringpuller This is how I imagine MP and ALF when talking in channel. Makes work less boring: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/0/02/Statler_and_Waldorf.jpg
12:26 mircea_popescu and by language we don't mean dogshit from china/india/the pacific islands and whatnot.
12:27 asciilifeform thestringpuller: l0l
12:29 asciilifeform i will observe that, e.g., new york times front page, has 1,001 new faux-people every morning. whereas here we get 0. and so in principle the problem is tractable.
12:29 mircea_popescu no question, it surely is tractable.
12:29 asciilifeform and not simply a matter of 'no one tried hard enough to piss in our particular soup'
12:29 mircea_popescu the discussion errupted when you wanted to take the engine out of the tractor.
12:30 asciilifeform where's that
12:30 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:244/to:244#244
12:30 asciilifeform nothing that happens here is analogous to btc mining.
12:31 asciilifeform there is no 'stranger can connect and blow difficulty'.
12:31 mircea_popescu quite identical, yes. except for the superficial parts you hate.
12:31 mircea_popescu lol! review the history. the bar in 2016 is "make a bot" ; the bar in 2014 was "get a gpg key".
↖
12:31 mircea_popescu are you aware the bar for people getting into eulora now, whom you despise for their inferiority, is EXACTLY EQUAL to the bar of this thing right here, years ago ?
12:32 mircea_popescu and actually ABOVE the bar for its allegible predecessor, bitcoin-otc ?
12:32 mircea_popescu runaway difficulty baby.
12:32 asciilifeform lel, and i dun even yet have a bot!11111
12:32 mircea_popescu right.
12:33 trinque well, I took CL so you'll have to in ada.
12:33 * asciilifeform pictures assemblage of bots carrying on here, long after we all went down in atomic dirigible crashes
12:33 trinque lol
12:33 mircea_popescu oya
12:33 mircea_popescu the testament of european-ity, as embodied by the greeks ; and later (1500s!) finally inherited by the italians is simply this :
12:34 mircea_popescu that women will survive after their man has died.
12:34 mircea_popescu shall i quote the greek ?
12:34 asciilifeform the goats, sheep, other critters, also survive, eh ?
12:35 mircea_popescu generally they get eaten.
12:35 mircea_popescu war ~= famine.
12:37 mircea_popescu anyway. let it be noted that gorgo is supposed to marry a GOOD man, not just any man. and the definition of goodness is at the very least shared by leonidas, if not outright sourced from him.
↖
12:39 asciilifeform there is ~unbroken strand of this, almost through ww2.
↖
~ 1 hours 17 minutes ~
13:57 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-06#1535099 << (probably on some superficial level) this reminded me of a film i recently watched at airport: "elena" (2011, zvyagintsev). it's a pretty good film (nothing extraordinary), i think, and i recommend it. i don't have a particular intuition but i suspect that elena's relationship to her husband may pique mircea_popescu's interest, and he'd have words about elena
13:57 a111 Logged on 2016-09-06 16:37 mircea_popescu: anyway. let it be noted that gorgo is supposed to marry a GOOD man, not just any man. and the definition of goodness is at the very least shared by leonidas, if not outright sourced from him.
13:57 Framedragger (decent cinematography and good acting)
14:10 mircea_popescu i recently watched fracture, which has all the might of a. hopkins and all around decent acting + good screenplay. except, of course, produced by the same people who keep pushing the same old stakhanovist retardation, as in eg http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:35/to:35#35
14:10 mircea_popescu it's a good yarn, especially for the people nostalgic for the soviet 70s.
14:10 * asciilifeform adds to list.
14:11 mircea_popescu minus the ages, it's almost exact copy.
14:11 * Framedragger to list, too
14:11 mircea_popescu and it even includes the "strong" female by scriptorial diktat, who otherwise behaves exactly like a little etsy bitch.
14:12 asciilifeform what's an etsybitch ?
14:12 mircea_popescu iirc those annoyed me the most back in the 70s.
14:12 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you know what the "independent business" ideas of the useless twentysomething middle class chick all revolve around selling handmade junk on social media sites ?
14:13 asciilifeform these, yes
14:13 asciilifeform but what in sov planet was analogous to these ?
14:13 mircea_popescu similar to how all the "online marketeering" derps run businesses consisting of selling "informational products" to themselves ?
14:13 mircea_popescu the female lead in the respective films.
14:14 mircea_popescu there is no genuine strong woman in soviet cinematography, except for the occasional bit part playing "nazis".
14:14 mircea_popescu in no small part because strength was rather nazi to the derps ; but nevertheless.
14:16 asciilifeform (in ~unrelated noose, asciilifeform went looking to buy a box of proximity switches, for cnc box. they are sorta like thumb-sized metal detectors with 1 bit of output. and ALL OF the extant offers come with 'this is chinese turd, randomly fails.' and consider, these exist SOLELY to keep large, expensive iron from colliding with itself...)
14:18 Framedragger ...but maybe instead of reliability they offer you push notifications to your Android CNC App (tm), and share buttons to social networks?..
14:18 asciilifeform ^ this isn't wholly accurate. they also exist to give a repeatable zero to the mechanism. (otherwise mechanical switch would suffice.)
14:18 asciilifeform Framedragger: nah, that's if americans made'em
14:19 Framedragger heh, yeah. (though, plenty of chinese IoT crap out there, too)
14:19 * trinque imagines the thing runs wince then
14:20 asciilifeform Framedragger: at one of my recent salt mine gigs, there was an after-hours club thing where folks would bring in and find (trivial) vulns in those.
14:20 asciilifeform trinque: nah, it's an analogue part.
14:20 trinque asciilifeform: ftr yesterday my point was not lets rally around llvm; you'll notice I've been using nothing but sbcl lately.
14:21 asciilifeform trinque: neato
14:21 Framedragger asciilifeform: ahh nice. (and now i recall you mentioning this before - some log memory in mind FINALLY ha)
14:21 asciilifeform trinque: any interesting finds ?
14:22 trinque not at the stage of reading enough of the compiler to claim mastery
14:22 asciilifeform http://www.aliexpress.com/item-img/M18-DC-2-wire-proximity-switch-NPN-NO-metal-sensor-proximity-switch/1561429874.html << earlier subj.
14:25 asciilifeform trinque: the compiler thing deserves its own thread.
14:32 mircea_popescu in other random news, avunculate marriage, while commended by teh jews, nevertheless is forbidden by the muslims. most of the world follows the latter rather than the former, except argentina, australia an' russia.
14:37 trinque heh, not just allowed but commended?
14:37 mircea_popescu yeah.
14:37 mircea_popescu many ancient societies had a serious welfare problem which is :
14:38 mircea_popescu if a) men are the structure and also b) men are not cowardly then necessarily you will end up with desperate female lines.
14:38 mircea_popescu wut do ?
14:38 mircea_popescu "marry them."
14:38 trinque makes sense.
14:39 mircea_popescu bible is rather explicit on the point that if your brother dies, you're stuck with the widow.
14:40 mircea_popescu this survives as late and far away as in ww2 anglo fictions, such as seen in cinema. dead guy wants his brother [in arms] to go to his gf and "tell her" things.
14:40 mircea_popescu it's not specifically said he should tell them with his penis, but anyway.
14:41 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-06#1535100 <<
14:41 a111 Logged on 2016-09-06 16:39 asciilifeform: there is ~unbroken strand of this, almost through ww2.
14:41 shinohai !~bible Matt. 22:24
14:41 jhvh1 shinohai: [KJV] Matthew 22:24 :: Saying, Master, Moses said, If a man die, having no children, his brother shall marry his wife, and raise up seed unto his brother.
14:42 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-12#1431193 << see also.
14:42 a111 Logged on 2016-03-12 13:10 mircea_popescu: this shit's becoming ever more arabic isn't it.
14:42 mircea_popescu heh.
14:42 mircea_popescu it's a good heuristic to follow who a man hates, for you're liable to find who he wants to crib without giving credit.
14:43 mircea_popescu the very same's true of "states", whatever that may mean.
14:44 mircea_popescu moreover, and more amusingly : notwithstanding pretenses of equality with russia, put forth on the very ridiculous basis of trying to compare bezzle-gdp of say italy with actual gdp of extractive economy ; the us is altogether not the equal of saudi arabia.
14:44 mircea_popescu the saudis have an actual culture. all the ustards have is a well lubricated hole.
14:46 trinque hm, underscores how damaged anglo/western notions of family are.
~ 34 minutes ~
15:21 asciilifeform in other noose,
15:21 asciilifeform $ openssl s_client -showcerts -connect 74.45.228.160:443
15:21 asciilifeform CONNECTED(00000003)
15:21 asciilifeform depth=0 C = US, ST = California, L = Sunnyvale, O = Tropos Networks, OU = Manufacturing, CN = Tropos Router, emailAddress = support@tropos.com
15:21 asciilifeform [snipped crud]
15:21 asciilifeform ^ quite a few of these ^
15:21 asciilifeform and,
15:21 asciilifeform $ openssl s_client -showcerts -connect 201.249.207.150:443
15:21 asciilifeform CONNECTED(00000003)
15:22 asciilifeform depth=0 name = AR157-Self-Signed-Certificate-210235384810E4001320
15:22 asciilifeform [snipsnip]
15:22 asciilifeform ^ huawei ar157 ^
15:23 asciilifeform tropos: 'MetroMesh is a network architecture, based upon the Tropos System Architecture, for building Smart Cities. Smart Cities utilize MetroMesh to build metro-area wireless broadband networks for municipal applications utilizing open-standard radios and IP communications. A common physical infrastructure can be leveraged to support multiple municipal applications including Intelligent Transportation Systems (ITS), Advanced Meteri
15:23 asciilifeform ng Infrastructure (AMI), video surveillance and public safety access.'
15:24 trinque http://www.nytimes.com/2014/03/23/world/asia/nsa-breached-chinese-servers-seen-as-spy-peril.html?hp&_r=0 << "But the plans went further: to exploit Huawei’s technology so that when the company sold equipment to other countries — including both allies and nations that avoid buying American products — the N.S.A. could roam through their computer and telephone networks to conduct surveillance and, if
15:24 trinque ordered by the president, offensive cyberoperations."
15:29 trinque http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2016/Sep/3 << in other networking hw manufacturer lulz
15:31 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-02#1533632 << I stand corrected; no fucktardation is too idiotic to have been committed over, and over, and..
15:31 a111 Logged on 2016-09-02 18:21 trinque: asciilifeform: people generate their ssh privkey on the box *to which* they're connecting?
15:34 asciilifeform a bunch more have telnet open, and look like this:
15:34 asciilifeform +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
15:34 asciilifeform
15:34 asciilifeform A T E N C A O
15:34 asciilifeform
15:34 asciilifeform *** Permitido o uso somente para pessoas autorizadas ***
15:34 asciilifeform
15:35 asciilifeform A utilizacao indevida ou a operacao que exceda o nivel de autorizacao
15:35 asciilifeform permitido estara sujeita a monitoramento.
15:35 asciilifeform +++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
15:35 asciilifeform (apologies for log clutter, but this is hilarious)
15:35 asciilifeform they are examples of http://www.audiocodes.com .
15:35 asciilifeform a voip gateway.
15:36 asciilifeform e.g., http://ns1.suam.edu.br (why it is on www? who knows.)
15:37 shinohai ^ kek
15:37 * Framedragger 's itch to redo http://internetcensus2012.bitbucket.org/ intesifies
15:38 Framedragger "try root:root / admin:admin"
15:41 asciilifeform 2.116.209.1 is a huawei MA5600T series.
15:41 asciilifeform (how i know this is left as exercise for the reader.0
15:41 asciilifeform 'SmartAX MA5600T is the global first all-in-one access platform which can provide DSL and optical integrated access. It can provide high density ADSL2+, VDSL2, POTS, ISDN, GPON, Ethernet fiber P2P and Cable access, triple-play service, and TDM/ATM/Ethernet leased line services for business customers. '
15:42 asciilifeform ( http://www1.huawei.com/en/products/fixed-access/fttx/olt/ma5600t/index.htm )
15:44 asciilifeform elsewhere,
15:45 asciilifeform we find that 85.14.248.152 leads to http://85.14.248.152:8087/play/files .
15:45 asciilifeform that's the one with SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_6.0p1 Debian-4+deb7u3 .
15:47 asciilifeform the 'mikrotik' boxes all look like this one: http://78.188.162.184 .
15:52 asciilifeform http://187.72.155.221 << typical example of the 'audiocodes' item.
15:53 asciilifeform http://189.112.138.254 << ditto.
15:55 asciilifeform $s 189.203.181.7
15:55 a111 1 result for "189.203.181.7", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=189.203.181.7
15:55 asciilifeform the mexican boxes. also huawei.
15:59 BingoBoingo $up felipelalli
15:59 asciilifeform 201.101.37.44 appears to be connected to a https://www.insomniasec.com/downloads/advisories/ISVA-110427.1.htm (!)
15:59 asciilifeform ^ 'scada'
16:00 asciilifeform ^ in case anyone wasn't tuned in, these are all animals from the http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/phuctored zoo ^
16:06 asciilifeform http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/thrfv/?raw=true << current roster.
16:06 asciilifeform entries with no id string are ones who did not answer.
16:06 asciilifeform mircea_popescu et al ^
16:07 asciilifeform it stands to reason that the entire line of routers of each type listed here is poppable. and, conceivably, all of the products from the vendors mentioned.
16:07 asciilifeform see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-02#1533659 .
16:07 a111 Logged on 2016-09-02 18:41 mircea_popescu: because if we discover that say "thisfunction is used on 64 bits of input of which the first 44 are known" ; then we run the other 20, add the resulting nextprime etc add those into the 8ball and it's goodnight.
16:11 asciilifeform 74.45.* are tropos.
16:12 asciilifeform ( SSH-2.0-OpenSSH_5.2 )
16:13 asciilifeform lel, tropos.com redirects to http://new.abb.com/network-management/communication-networks/wireless-networks
16:14 asciilifeform which has curios such as 'whitepaper: wireless for substation physical security.'
16:14 asciilifeform https://archive.is/hXAIp << subj.
16:18 asciilifeform https://archive.is/4Sf1B << fresh snap of subj.
16:19 asciilifeform 'Our offering Oil & Gas Utilities Mining Industrial Control Systems'
16:19 asciilifeform gotta wonder how this find will be treated by the 'controllers of the vertical and the horizontal'
16:20 asciilifeform i'ma bet it'll be 'pretend never happened', vs. hannoboeckization.
16:22 asciilifeform oooh this is riiich,
16:22 asciilifeform 'Around-the-clock monitoring of physical security at transmission and distribution substations can be a key factor in minimizing damage from a wide range of threats that are becoming more commonplace. It is well documented that unauthorized access to utility substations can result in hundreds of thousands of dollars in financial losses as well as cause power outages. Unauthorized access may cause such damage as a result of theft of m
16:22 asciilifeform aterials or equipment; damage to substation equipment; and can provide hackers with an opportunity to launch cyber-attacks from within substations. '
16:22 asciilifeform FROM WITHIN SUBSTATIONS
16:22 asciilifeform DIDJA KNOW
16:22 asciilifeform ( http://new.abb.com/docs/librariesprovider92/default-document-library/substation-physical-securitya8dc59e6c1f463c09537ff0000433538.pdf )
16:23 asciilifeform 'Gunshot detection, alert and location identification – when a substation is attacked by gunfire it can result in significant damage to equipment and risk the safety of workers on site. A gunshot detection system typically can identify the type of firearm as well as the exact location from which it was fired. If video cameras are configured as part of the gunshot detection system, they may offer a visual image of the individual tha
16:23 asciilifeform t fired the gun which can accelerate in apprehending and convicting individuals involved in the illicit activity.'
16:23 asciilifeform how about broken rng detection, imbeciles ?
16:24 asciilifeform http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/pl5j4/?raw=true << whole thing, largely for mircea_popescu
16:24 asciilifeform ABB Wireless
16:24 asciilifeform 555 Del Rey Avenue
16:24 asciilifeform Sunnyvale, CA 94085
16:24 asciilifeform Phone: +1 408.331.6800
16:24 asciilifeform who wants to give'em a call??
16:25 ben_vulpes what, to speak to a secretary
16:28 asciilifeform if i knew to-what, i'd do it myself.
16:29 asciilifeform 'Memphis, Tennessee is known for rock ‘n roll and slow-cooked barbeque, but those aren’t the only good things coming out of Bluff City. Soon, residents will enjoy the perks of a successful smart grid rollout, too. In an effort to modernize the grid and enhance internal operations and customer service, Memphis Light, Gas and Water is deploying 1 million smart meters within its 784 square mile service area. ABB has been selected to
16:29 asciilifeform provide wireless network products and services to support advanced metering infrastructure (AMI) communications. This two-way technology is the foundation of the smart grid. ...'
16:29 asciilifeform ( http://troposblog.tropos.com )
16:30 asciilifeform 'Our launch of the TropOS 6420, an outdoor broadband mesh router designed to enhance physical security applications in electric utility T&D substations, was a timely endeavor given recent high-profile vandalism and sabotage events. '
16:30 asciilifeform 'Nothing says happy customer quite like repeat purchases. Recently, ABB Tropos Wireless Communication Systems installed a wireless mesh network at PotashCorp – White Springs’ 100,000-acre phosphate mine in White Springs, FL.'
16:30 asciilifeform etc.
16:33 asciilifeform apparently they have a considerable market share in public surveillance cams and the like.
16:33 asciilifeform 'vertical and horizontal' are not controlled with magic, no.
16:33 asciilifeform they are controlled with 'industry partnerships', like this one.
16:36 mircea_popescu aaaand in other news, hanbot makes some kickass encilladas.
16:36 mircea_popescu you'd think she's from like california or something.
16:36 asciilifeform lel
16:36 asciilifeform (iirc hanbot actually ~did~ come from california)
16:37 mircea_popescu yawell!
16:37 mircea_popescu omg what happened here lol
16:39 asciilifeform just an ordinary public-rape-with-reciprocating-saw of some 'vertical and horizontal' derps.
~ 19 minutes ~
16:58 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:464/to:464#464 << basically, the republic's mesh already exists, it's called "smart cities" and is used to run the surveillance and etc of the lizard empire.
16:59 asciilifeform this was known previously.
16:59 asciilifeform what was not (publicly) known is that they had own version of soviet toy crypto 'gost'.
17:01 mircea_popescu aha
17:01 mircea_popescu somebody should wipe some harddrives / deface some corporate sites so there's something here to qntra
17:02 mircea_popescu as it is, meh.
17:02 mircea_popescu (feel free to drop a pgpgram when done, of course, i "won't be able to prove it's mine" etc.)
17:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: these aren't 'corporate sites'
17:04 asciilifeform these are transformer farms, water pumps, security cams, etc.
17:04 mircea_popescu eh, i'm sure there's something somewhere.
17:05 asciilifeform 'something, somewhere' yes.
17:05 asciilifeform but i was speaking specifically re tropos.
17:05 asciilifeform these are 'heavy industry' items, a la the siemens product starring in stuxnet.
17:07 mircea_popescu but can they accelerate in apprehending!
17:07 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:536/to:536#536 << eh fuck 'em, let them read the log like everyone else.
17:08 asciilifeform btw, the 5 tropos boxen poppes so far appear to all be in athens, ohio.
17:08 asciilifeform fwiw.
17:08 asciilifeform *popped
17:08 mircea_popescu maybe that's where the cosmic rays are.
17:09 asciilifeform prolly where the most tropos per /16 block on planet3...
17:09 asciilifeform (their test plant ?)
17:10 asciilifeform 'birthday' effect, recall.
17:10 mircea_popescu aha.
17:16 asciilifeform tropos is part of the 'vertical and horizontal' thing, in the sense where it is one of two dozen or so 'partners' for making sure that usg knows daily output, in millilitres, of oil well in venezuela, or that if texas breaks away from the ussa, it will not have working sewage pumps, etc.
17:16 mircea_popescu in other lulz : when nixon and rockefeller were negotiating the treaty of fifth avenue, nixon's / gop's "platform committee" was in a hotel in chicago. they were on the phone for four hours ; but midway, as midnight came by, THE HOTEL OPERATOR PULLED THE PLUG AND WENT HOME.
17:16 asciilifeform it is not part of the 'monkey' net that includes 'corporate sites' etc.
17:16 mircea_popescu the guy was not shot. this is supposedly a country.
17:17 mircea_popescu asciilifeform these two items are not distinct.
17:17 mircea_popescu also in the news, cancer has no organs.
17:17 asciilifeform in that sense, not, aha.
17:19 mircea_popescu (in case anyone is curious where this nonsense starts, see eg point 2 of the "basic, specific positions" : "2. The vital need of our foreign policy is new political creativity—leading and inspiring the formation, in all great regions of the free world, of confederations, large enough and strong enough to meet modern problems and challenges. We should promptly lead toward the formation of such confederations in the North Atl
17:19 mircea_popescu antic community and in the Western Hemisphere."
17:26 asciilifeform 'There must be no price ceiling on America's security.'
17:26 asciilifeform many lulz.
17:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: https://ics-cert.us-cert.gov/advisories/ICSA-12-297-01 << ahahahahahahahaha
↖
17:42 asciilifeform 'This advisory provides mitigation details for a vulnerability that impacts Tropos Wireless Mesh Routers. An independent research group composed of Nadia Heninger (University of California at San Diego), Zakir Durumeric (University of Michigan), Eric Wustrow (University of Michigan), and J. Alex Halderman (University of Michigan) identified an insufficient entropy vulnerabilitya in SSH key generation in Tropos Networks’s wireless n
17:42 asciilifeform etwork router product line. By impersonating the device, an attacker can obtain the credentials of administrative users and perform a Man-in-the-Middle (MitM) attack. Tropos has validated the vulnerability and produced an embedded operating software update that mitigates the reported vulnerability. According to Tropos, products are deployed across several sectors including the transportation, energy, water, emergency services, and cr
17:42 asciilifeform itical manufacturing concentrated in the United States. This vulnerability can be exploited remotely.'
17:43 asciilifeform aka CVE-2012-4898 .
17:43 asciilifeform old noose >
17:43 asciilifeform ?
17:46 asciilifeform i'd like to see the stuxnet-style non-fixing fix they pushed out.
17:47 asciilifeform anybody got a tropos whatever ?
17:49 asciilifeform incidentally the cited piece, 'minding your p's and q's', henninger et al ( https://factorable.net/weakkeys12.conference.pdf ) makes 0 mention of tropos.
17:49 asciilifeform so must've been 'seekrit evidence' or wat.
17:52 asciilifeform http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/wdrgs/?raw=true << mircea_popescuization of above.
17:56 mircea_popescu sooo... it was fixed ?
17:56 asciilifeform 'fixed'
17:56 mircea_popescu such a charade by now.
17:57 mircea_popescu oh "anyone can detect 0cost people". really ? who detected nadia chick doesn't actually exist irl ?
17:57 asciilifeform any reason to suppose the chick doesn't exist ?
17:58 mircea_popescu any reason TO SUPPOSE SHE DOES ?
17:58 asciilifeform https://www.cis.upenn.edu/~nadiah << hey phf, consider dropping by there and see..?
17:58 mircea_popescu "oh coincidentally, this name that keeps being dredged up by usg assets as supposed primary source ; which never EVER checks out"
17:58 mircea_popescu such existence.
17:58 asciilifeform eh, i met a buncha these poor sods in the flesh
17:58 asciilifeform boneh, for instance.
17:59 mircea_popescu this is what, the... 5th ? case where "she reported" things she never reported ?
17:59 asciilifeform (or, alternatively, whoever plays their role!11111)
18:04 asciilifeform anybody got a printed, cdrom, or otherwise offline archive of 'CVE' they're willing to swear by ..?
18:05 asciilifeform this is an open call, for l0gz readers.
18:05 asciilifeform mats? boolcrap ?
18:06 asciilifeform i will add that i have not succeeded in turning up any public record of what the vuln actually ~was~
18:06 asciilifeform beyond the statement given by usg.
18:06 asciilifeform which was the 1 paragraph appearing earlier.
18:11 * asciilifeform is lelling over getting usg 'red team 3111111113333337 s333k00000r1t1 job!1111' spam in mailboxes that have been idle for eons
18:24 Framedragger on the basis of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-05#1534300 , could someone from l1 please rate scriba? it should then self-voice with deedbot if it detects no voice
18:24 a111 Logged on 2016-09-05 14:52 deedbot: Framedragger rated scriba 3 << An instance of a bot I wrote and manage. I trust it with log history, but if it becomes sentient and starts asking for money, do beware.
18:25 Framedragger mircea_popescu et al ^
18:25 trinque !!rate scriba 1 Framedraggerbot
18:25 deedbot Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/6riwl/?raw=true
18:26 trinque !!v 9BB4FF83E23F40AC43098DAF7360600C8099645A25F7CA13771988D9FCA12A56
18:26 deedbot trinque rated scriba 1 << Framedraggerbot
18:26 Framedragger much thanks trinque
18:26 trinque cheers
18:26 Framedragger multiple lines - will output up to 5 because spamming is bad: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:629/to:650#629 asdfasdfasdf
18:27 Framedragger good start, good start.
18:28 Framedragger multiple lines - will output up to 5 because spamming is bad: http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:629/to:650#629 asdfasdfasdf
18:28 scriba Logged on 2016-08-30: [1/5] [23:40:33] <Framedragger> echo 'Вопрос' | iconv -t cp1251 | iconv -f koi8-r
18:28 scriba [2/5] [23:40:41] <Framedragger> "koi8-r" ?
18:28 scriba [3/5] [23:41:07] <Framedragger> aha, "issue", encoded in some grotesque way
18:28 scriba [4/5] [23:41:26] <mircea_popescu> yeah
18:28 scriba [5/5] [23:42:13] <Framedragger> КПРФ -> йопт HAHAHA
18:29 Framedragger process managed by upstart, will restart if needed etc. let's see if it pisses people off :p
18:29 Framedragger http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/2018/01/01/#1
18:29 trinque the numbering at the front is probably unnecessary.
18:30 trinque but otherwise very nice
18:30 Framedragger it won't do the numbering if it's just a single line, like http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:1/to:1#1
18:30 scriba Logged on 2016-09-06: [00:00:01] <asciilifeform> again who the fuck needs a rustbucket that costs a dollar per metre to move??!
18:30 Framedragger but maybe you're right
18:31 * trinque can count to five :D
18:31 Framedragger hmm.. yeah :D
18:31 Framedragger right, off to watch film, will monitor things.
~ 27 minutes ~
18:58 asciilifeform very nifty
19:00 mircea_popescu $rate scriba 1 Framedragger 's bot
19:00 mircea_popescu !!rate scriba 1 Framedragger 's bot
19:00 deedbot Get your OTP: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/r/qd3e5/?raw=true
19:01 mircea_popescu !!v 724D09772202F2F5E15334DB6031186C230D767D5272FEB4EFFFCBFC6F55D4CD
19:01 deedbot mircea_popescu rated scriba 1 << Framedragger 's bot
19:02 mircea_popescu win.
19:02 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/2016/01/01/#1
19:03 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160906/from:474/to:474#474
19:03 scriba Logged on 2016-09-06: [19:34:58] <asciilifeform> A T E N C A O
19:03 mircea_popescu i suspect this might become a meme.
19:12 asciilifeform lel
19:21 mod6 so yesterdays discussion got me thinking about a lisp machine (lisp-cpu) with verilog on a fpga
19:22 mod6 there are some projects out there seems like, in this vein.
19:22 mod6 alf, you ever attempt anything like this?
19:23 mod6 or is that what you were kinda talking about here, but ran ut of time: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-04-22#1455140
19:23 a111 Logged on 2016-04-22 01:47 asciilifeform: i actually spent the first ~6 mo. after i bought the lisp machine, trying to rig up, with fpga, a mechanism to read the fucking disk
19:24 trinque ^ was an endeavor to bolt modern disk to the thing iirc
19:25 mod6 yeah, im not super clear on the whole thing.
19:25 mod6 so forget that maybe.. just wondering if anyone has tried this before?
19:26 mircea_popescu if someone made a fpga-based clone of the symbolics machine that'd prolly get a bunch of people to wet their pants.
19:27 asciilifeform mod6: i have entire www dedicated to it.
19:27 asciilifeform all forms of it.
19:27 asciilifeform and we had at least half a dozen threads, e.g.,
19:27 asciilifeform $s sdram
19:27 a111 26 results for "sdram", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=sdram
19:27 asciilifeform $s xilinx
19:27 a111 96 results for "xilinx", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=xilinx
19:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it doesn't HAVE to use sdram though does it.
19:27 trinque all roads lead to make 50 billion dollars, then cry as alf says it's not enough
↖
19:28 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it can use sram. which is what i've been playing with for past year or so.
19:28 mod6 yeah, alright, i'll take a look.
19:28 mod6 thanks alf
19:28 asciilifeform but go and convince anyone to use a box with 2MB.
19:28 mircea_popescu depends what for.
19:28 asciilifeform (sram costs like plutonium.)
19:28 mircea_popescu huh ?
19:29 asciilifeform and the real boojum is that it isn't even AVAILABLE in more than 8 or so MB per die.
19:29 asciilifeform for any price afaik.
19:29 mircea_popescu you can have 4mb for ~5 bux iirc
19:29 trinque asciilifeform: looks like you've been doing marketing for a non-existent networking gear company all day
19:29 trinque great marketing
19:29 mircea_popescu lol
19:30 mircea_popescu Alliance Memory AS6C8008-55ZIN SRAM Memory, 8Mbit, 2.7 → 5.5 V, 55ns 44-Pin TSOP << available from ~$5 for orders over 2k.
19:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 8Mbit == 1MB.
19:30 mircea_popescu so you know, for five grand you got a gb.
19:31 asciilifeform and i actually have a board with that part on.
19:31 asciilifeform but understand, speed of light is finite
19:31 asciilifeform and signal here does not travel in vacuum, either.
19:31 trinque there's really no arguing for going up the stairs is there
19:31 mircea_popescu sure. but the idea here is to build an upgraded symbolics machine ; not to build a competitor for current intel offerings.
19:31 trinque vs up the wall
19:31 asciilifeform the five grand does not buy 'same as your pc', it buys something quite rather more like what is in my bolix 3620.
19:32 mircea_popescu dude. no fucking body wants "same as your pc".
19:32 mircea_popescu i already got my pc.
19:32 asciilifeform mircea_popescu is willing to live with 500nsec seeks ?
19:32 asciilifeform https://archive.is/sI1dK << subj.
19:32 mircea_popescu depends what it's doing!
19:33 mircea_popescu http://66.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lofmkgdT9Z1qkmr3do1_500.gif << example of 500msec seeks.
19:33 asciilifeform lel
19:33 asciilifeform sdram was not, unfortunately, the only device in the shitlist either.
19:33 mircea_popescu yes ? nature lives with half second seeks for some data transfer applications.
19:33 asciilifeform i was able to make 10baseT ethernet meet timing spec without using xilinxisms
19:33 asciilifeform but not 100.
19:34 asciilifeform ditto pata, but not sata.
19:34 asciilifeform usb1 but not usb2/3.
19:34 mircea_popescu i dunno who authorized this approach of "try to symbolics-clone ibm at" ; but it wasn't me.
19:34 asciilifeform well do you want a box with no i/o at all, or wat.
19:34 mircea_popescu !~search splitting
19:34 jhvh1 mircea_popescu: There were no matching configuration variables.
19:35 asciilifeform 'lisp doesn't need i/o' -- asciilifeform's brother
19:35 trinque none of that is "no"
19:35 mircea_popescu there is a clear market in high assurance hardware to do things such as signing, encrypting and bitcoin payments where time is not a concern.
19:36 asciilifeform trinque: it does add up to '0 chance of running bitcoin' tho.
19:36 mircea_popescu not so.
19:36 asciilifeform it has hard time spec.
19:36 mircea_popescu life lesson here for you alf : you start, anything, by doing what it does well. NOT by trying and failing to do what other things do well.
19:36 mircea_popescu nevermind the $random-arbitrary-application.
19:37 mircea_popescu i dunno why the fuck this error is so common, but it dominates anglosphere. "white knight" = dude who is trying not to be a good dude, but to be the best chick he could possibly be.
19:37 mircea_popescu why the fuck ? no chick wants a gf ; esp not a shitty emulation in male hardware.
19:37 mircea_popescu and yet...
19:38 deedbot http://www.contravex.com/2016/09/06/the-revolutions-just-keep-revolving-dont-they/ << » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - The revolutions just keep revolving don’t they.
19:38 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i must point out that there is NO application where 'time does not matter'. for instance,
19:39 mircea_popescu yes, there is. i just gave you a few.
19:39 asciilifeform i have not succeeded in coming up with a 6502 rsatron that manages to generate a key before the battery (of any reasonable size) and the owner's patience give way.
19:39 mircea_popescu i literally do not care if preparing the signed copies of warrants for s.mg takes a minute or a month.
19:39 asciilifeform because the thing didn't have a multiplier.
19:39 mircea_popescu if i know they take a month i just start a month early.
19:39 asciilifeform you'd like the thing to be the size of a breadbox ?
19:40 mircea_popescu we';re not discussing 6052 here. stop moving things around.
19:40 asciilifeform it was example.
19:40 mircea_popescu it was either horrible example made by dysfunctional brain ; or else deliberate attemt to spoke conversation wheel.
19:40 mircea_popescu we're discussing here, modern clone of symbolics machine, or a similar item.
19:40 asciilifeform example of an actual dead end that i had to explore the hard way.
19:41 mircea_popescu yes, but a z80 clone chip is no sort of fpga forcrying out loud.
19:41 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it would be a terrible application for it, for 'high assurance' you want the MINIMUM TRANSISTOR COUNT
19:41 asciilifeform this is hard concept ?
19:41 mircea_popescu i gotta prototype sometime.
19:41 asciilifeform prototype - yes.
19:41 mircea_popescu well wtf are we discussing.
19:41 asciilifeform the field?
19:41 mircea_popescu so - yes, there'd be applications where time isn't the criterion.
19:42 asciilifeform they are solely of 'harem' (vs 'forum') type.
19:42 * asciilifeform brb, meat
19:43 mircea_popescu as in examples given ?
19:43 mircea_popescu i dunno.
~ 18 minutes ~
20:01 BingoBoingo !~bcstats
20:01 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Current Blocks: 428610 | Current Difficulty: 2.2075590833037228E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 429407 | Next Difficulty In: 797 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 17 hours, 36 minutes, and 41 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
20:01 shinohai !~ticker --market all
20:01 jhvh1 shinohai: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 608.93, vol: 4038.84594708 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 608.253, vol: 4853.26157 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 615.2, vol: 3078.1683089 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 612.746414, vol: 146496.84330000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 613.318, vol: 486.39297549 | Volume-weighted last average: 612.561510532
20:02 shinohai Notice jhvh1 doesn't require a "more"
20:02 BingoBoingo nice
20:02 BingoBoingo !~ty
20:02 jhvh1 You are very welcome Daddy
20:06 mircea_popescu you know this "you are very welcome daddy" think keeps reminding me of this ... i don't recall, maybe a succession of sms captions ? where a clearly competent streetwalker (of the sort that lives on street most days, checks into motel now and again) was assuring some random dude that she doesn't mind his friend beating her up.
20:06 trinque shinohai: nice!
20:06 mircea_popescu ex post facto.
20:07 shinohai trinque: thx I just always found it annoying griible required a ;;more when it all fits in 2 lines fine.
20:10 trinque shinohai: yes but otherwise it wouldn't have had room for the ;;more
20:10 mircea_popescu lol
20:11 Framedragger [restarting]
20:12 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Well even with bots the patriarchy must be established
20:18 mircea_popescu do you recall this thing ?
20:18 BingoBoingo I am trying too
20:19 BingoBoingo brb sobriety time!
20:19 mircea_popescu lol
20:20 * shinohai considers adding the Big Book to the scriptorium for BingoBoingo
20:21 BingoBoingo You don't need to add the whole thing. Just the steps and the traditions.
20:31 mircea_popescu just in case anyone's weird tank was running low, http://diaryofahollywoodstreetking.com/claudia-jordan-admits-to-abortion/
20:34 asciilifeform Framedragger: bot dead ?
20:34 asciilifeform or hm, nm.
20:35 shinohai !~step1
20:35 jhvh1 1. We admitted we were powerless over alcohol—that our lives had become unmanageable.
20:35 shinohai bwahahahha
20:35 asciilifeform l0l!
20:38 asciilifeform https://archive.is/jsoCp << in other lulz
20:40 asciilifeform 'The Data Protection Commissioner is convinced, her supervision authority also extends „to SUSLAG and its staff members“. Therefore, she wanted to inspect this core area of BND-NSA collaboration. But the BND also blocked these attempts. The Commissioner and her staff are not allowed to enter the building and not even allowed to know how many people work there...'
20:40 asciilifeform 'While the Data Protection Commissioner was examining the BND in Bad Aibling, the secret service ramped up its equipment for 300 million Euros. And while the Commissioner waited for an answer to her report from the Chancellery, the government drafted a reform bill for the BND that not only legalizes the organization’s actions, but even increases its powers. This legislative package is scheduled to be adopted this year and will pres
20:40 asciilifeform umably come into effect at the beginning of next year.'
20:43 mircea_popescu heh
20:44 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2014-08-16#798881 << see also.
20:44 a111 Logged on 2014-08-16 21:39 asciilifeform: 'mr carter, you aren't cleared for this, and if you ask again there will be problems.'
20:44 mircea_popescu a government can never be solvent ; a government can never operate legally.
↖
20:52 asciilifeform noshit.jpg
20:54 * asciilifeform rereading vintage golden lulzies, http://trilema.com/2014/a-complete-theory-of-economics/#comment-107389
20:54 asciilifeform 'These aren't people assembled for an actual reason, as a result of merits. These are people whose merits are supposed to be predicated on the mere fact of having been assembled. Not quite the same thing.'
21:03 asciilifeform from somewhere therein, moar gold,
21:04 asciilifeform ' Anyone who doesn’t know what he knows or who doesn’t behave/speak in the conventional way these developers speak is merely a troll, not worthy to partake in a discussion among the priests. And in his view Henson is simply too big to fail, too big to be held accountable for his actions, in this or any case, because he is part of the crypto establishment. We see these same patterns in politics and banking for example – it’s e
21:04 asciilifeform litism, simply put. The 1%. ... It’s much like politics – one wants to throw out the lot of them and start from scratch with real people. I know for a fact I don’t want either of these people working on security-related code in MY OS. Get lost, permanently!'
21:04 asciilifeform ( https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2014/04/08/julian-assange-debian-is-owned-by-the-nsa )
21:04 * asciilifeform somehow missed.
21:05 asciilifeform same fella still shouts into the wilderness, e.g., https://igurublog.wordpress.com/2015/06/13/openwashing-and-other-deceptions-in-linux/ ,
21:05 asciilifeform 'Remember Heartbleed? Don’t let that example escape your attention. OpenSSL is open, yet it is so large and poorly designed that it’s a dark mystery. Heartbleed was easily shown to be a deliberate hack, and was even deliberately coded to hide itself from tools that would otherwise have shown the leak. And it was sitting there in ‘open’ sight. Instead of using small, well-reviewed crypto libraries, corporate Linux developers c
21:05 asciilifeform hoose to use corporate-maintained tools like OpenSSL, which are deeply compromised. Do you think the people responsible for HeartBleed were held accountable, and fundamental changes were made? Guess again. It’s simply ignored by most of Linux. (You’ll notice real UNIXes like OpenBSD did not ignore it and have begun serious changes. Yet even there, it took such a serious, obvious exploit for them to see the engineering problem.)'
21:06 asciilifeform 'Really, I think it’s too late for mainstream “Linux”. It’s gone. It’s done. Geeks of the world were easily fooled by a shiny new toy and a corporate propaganda campaign to match, without considering the engineering implications. You can still use a real (systemd-free) version of Linux, or move toward the BSDs, but if you stay with the easy-to-use, polished distros, you’re no longer really using Linux. You’re just fooli
21:06 asciilifeform ng yourself, and they’re fooling you. Nor will systemd be the end of it – it’s just the beginning, the setup for future changes.'
~ 21 minutes ~
21:28 asciilifeform ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://wiki.tulpa.info/Official/FAQ << a (supposed) reader mailed this in. parody? or...
21:35 asciilifeform $up alice_
21:35 asciilifeform !!up alice_
21:35 deedbot alice_ voiced for 30 minutes.
21:35 asciilifeform there you are.
21:36 asciilifeform ... hello ?
21:37 alice_ hi! today i'm reading {The Timeless Way of Building}. i'm curious if you've read anything by Christopher Alexander
21:38 asciilifeform can't say that i have.
21:38 asciilifeform maybe danielpbarron ?
21:39 alice_ mm. it's a mix of theoretical and applied architecture. generalizes nicely to all of design.
21:39 asciilifeform 'Christopher Alexander is Emeritus Professor of Architecture at the University of California, Berkeley, best known for his seminal works on architecture including A Pattern Language, Notes on the Synthesis of Form, and The Nature of Order, Volumes I-IV. He is the father of the Pattern Language movement in computer science, and A Pattern Language was perhaps the first complete book ever written in hypertext fashion.'
21:39 alice_ that's the one
21:40 asciilifeform i see 'design patterns' as language bug.
21:40 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/?p=401 << as described here.
21:41 * shinohai wonders if this is the alice_ he is always reading about in gpg manuals.
21:42 alice_ if i had a dollar every time somebody made that joke
21:43 asciilifeform http://library.uniteddiversity.coop/Ecological_Building/A_Pattern_Language.pdf << 1333337 w4r3z. but my impression is - claptrap.
21:44 shinohai Glad I could do my part to make it economically viable for you.
21:44 asciilifeform i'ma read the thing anyway, because i am an 'entomologist'.
21:45 asciilifeform but cannot make guarantee of result.
21:46 alice_ i read http://www.loper-os.org/?p=401. it doesn't mention design patterns. i'm p sure i can guess correctly the bad thing it's complaining about, but i didn't get a model for how design patterns are a language bug
21:47 asciilifeform http://www.rainmagazine.com/archive/2014/gatemaker << reads like ted nelson.
21:47 asciilifeform which is not a bad thing.
21:47 asciilifeform alice_: if i see a pattern, i write a macro and it vanishes.
21:47 asciilifeform which is why we have macro.
21:47 alice_ {A Pattern Language} is a book about the specific pattern language he built for architecture; http://library.uniteddiversity.coop/Ecological_Building/The_Timeless_Way_of_Building_Complete.pdf is the theory book
21:48 alice_ right, macro is an excellent way to use patterns in code (and is itself a pattern)
21:49 asciilifeform macro ~removes~ pattern. as in increasing the entropy (per, say, kolmogorov, or even chaitin's criterion) of the program.
21:50 asciilifeform quite like what, elsewhere, a well-written compressor does.
21:50 alice_ list[:-1] vs (drop-last list)
21:51 asciilifeform !!up boolcrap
21:51 deedbot boolcrap voiced for 30 minutes.
21:51 boolcrap yo
21:51 boolcrap stan you got cycles?
21:51 asciilifeform hola señor boolcrap
21:51 asciilifeform eh?
21:52 boolcrap sieg heil stan joseph joseph goebbels
21:52 boolcrap sorry forgot his spelling
21:52 boolcrap had to google, then pasted pad.
21:52 asciilifeform Ein Volk, Ein Reich, Ein boolcrap .
21:52 boolcrap ^bad
21:52 boolcrap lol
21:52 asciilifeform alice_: ick nonhomoiconic syntax.
21:53 boolcrap you getting alot of work done alf?
21:53 asciilifeform megatonnes.
21:53 boolcrap nice
21:53 asciilifeform and you ?
21:53 boolcrap i finally got official access to the place i am a contractor for
21:53 alice_ afaict christopher alexander is using "pattern" to mean a basic component of language, not the thing which macros remove
21:53 boolcrap but I have learned from you well so
21:54 boolcrap i set the bar very low for myself
21:54 boolcrap im going to stan the crap out of these guys in your honor!
21:54 asciilifeform lel boolcrap , what have you even been doing all of this time.
21:54 boolcrap they have me doing odd jobs, doing prep work for a RE course they teaching at UM
21:55 boolcrap also ive been working not-bare-iron1.0
21:55 alice_ i feel ick about nonhomoiconic *and* never-infix
21:55 asciilifeform what's so great about infix.
21:56 asciilifeform i could live the rest of my life without infix, quite happily.
21:56 alice_ seems to be a lot more natural language for a lot of humans for a lot of things
21:56 alice_ maybe not you :) but me.
21:56 alice_ invertible compilers solve that problem tho pretty nicely
21:57 * asciilifeform brb, meat
21:57 asciilifeform !!up alice_
21:57 deedbot alice_ voiced for 30 minutes.
21:57 asciilifeform !!up boolcrap
21:57 deedbot boolcrap voiced for 30 minutes.
21:57 asciilifeform entertain one another, dear guests.
21:57 asciilifeform i'ma meat for a spell.
21:58 alice_ i haven't figured out how to scale them up to something as syntax-complicated as javascript but i've found 80/20s pretty useful for practical infixy needs
21:58 alice_ transpilers
21:59 alice_ i seriously tried lisp, i spent hundreds of hours coding in a variety of lisps, including clojure (ugh) and arc (lovely but it was for a production web server and it was completely unsuited to the purpose)
22:00 alice_ i don't think as easy without shit like x/2 and list[:-1]
22:11 alice_ dsls i'm proud of
22:11 alice_ ┌───────────── [ ──────────────┐ ┌───────────── ⇧[ ─────────────┐
22:11 alice_ │ _ ¹ ² ³ ⁴ ⁵ ⁶ ⁷ ⁸ ⁹ ⁰ ⁻ ⁼ _ │ │ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ _ ⁽ ⁾ _ ⁺ _ │
22:11 alice_ │ _ X ʷ ᵉ ʳ ᵗ ʸ ᵘ ⁱ ᵒ ᵖ _ _ _ │ │ _ X ᵂ ᴱ ᴿ ᵀ X ᵁ ᴵ ᴼ ᴾ _ _ _ │
↖
22:11 alice_ │ _ ᵃ ˢ ᵈ ᶠ ᵍ ʰ ʲ ᵏ ˡ _ _ _ │ │ _ ᴬ ᴮ ᴰ X ᴳ ᴴ ᴶ ᴷ ᴸ _ _ _ │
22:11 alice_ │ _ ᶻ ˣ ᶜ ᵛ ᵇ ⁿ ᵐ _ _ _ _ │ │ _ X X X ⱽ X ᴺ ᴹ _ _ _ _ │
22:11 alice_ └──────────────────────────────┘ └──────────────────────────────┘
22:12 alice_ a homoiconic format for binding keyboard keys
22:12 alice_ sort of, i think i misuse homoiconic
22:13 trinque uh
22:13 trinque what do you think it means?
22:16 alice_ the program structure is similar to its syntax. in this case, the code for shift is ⇧ and can be typed by ⏻⇧
22:16 alice_ & the syntax is similar to a literal keyboard when possible
22:17 alice_ that's {power key}⇧ if you haven't installed any exotic fonts. it's macbook-specific.
22:17 trinque mkay
22:17 trinque so, what brought you here?
22:18 alice_ asciilifeform seems potentially entertaining
22:18 alice_ /interesting
22:20 trinque can't argue with that.
22:20 mircea_popescu what the fuck is this then
22:20 boolcrap he is actually the most interesting man alive
22:21 trinque mircea_popescu: somebody got out her crayons
22:21 boolcrap at our old job we hired him just so he would come out to lunch with us
22:21 mircea_popescu is this gabriel laddel v2.0 or ?
22:23 trinque alice_: are you homeless by chance?
22:23 alice_ no, why
22:24 mircea_popescu just a stray thought.
22:24 alice_ what
22:27 alice_ you give cute insults tho
22:27 alice_ i am entertained :)
22:27 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160907/from:50/to:50#50 << this much is certainly true
22:27 scriba Logged on 2016-09-07: [01:06:18] <asciilifeform> 'Really, I think it’s too late for mainstream “Linux”. It’s gone. It’s done. Geeks of the world were easily fooled by a shiny new toy and a corporate propaganda campaign to match, without considering the engineering implications. You can still use a real (systemd-free) version of Linux, or move toward the BSDs, but if you stay with the
22:27 scriba easy-to-use, polished distros, you’re no longer really using Linux. You’re just fooli
22:28 mircea_popescu !!up alice_
22:28 deedbot alice_ voiced for 30 minutes.
22:30 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160907/from:102/to:102#102 << guy does what usians are known for, take random item from the scenery, write his name on it, strut around proudly.
22:30 scriba Logged on 2016-09-07: [01:53:54] <alice_> afaict christopher alexander is using "pattern" to mean a basic component of language, not the thing which macros remove
22:32 alice_ so
22:33 mircea_popescu http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160907/from:111/to:111#111 << it's funny that THIS antipattern you recognize. yes, it's the macula of intellectual degeneracy ; and not coincidentally rapspeech is fulla infixen.
22:33 scriba Logged on 2016-09-07: [01:56:09] <asciilifeform> i could live the rest of my life without infix, quite happily.
22:35 alice_ why are you so angry?
22:35 mircea_popescu i'm merely strict.
22:36 alice_ mm, not my fetish. as long as you get off on it :)
22:36 mircea_popescu who are you again ?
22:37 alice_ clarify
22:40 alice_ what do you mean, who am i?
22:40 mircea_popescu that, literally. who are you.
22:41 alice_ i'm alice. i haven't interacted with this channel before. but i don't imagine that's the answer you're hoping for
↖
22:42 * mircea_popescu is vaguely unsurprised that rando who spends his time vaguely considering "invertible compilers" for, obviously, javascript, has yet to actually produce a definition for itself.
22:42 alice_ her
22:42 alice_ i take it back, your insults are annoying
22:44 mircea_popescu what do you think an insult is ?
22:45 alice_ your mom
22:45 mircea_popescu mmkay.
22:48 ben_vulpes in other news, the much-maligned littoral combat ships can't keep water out of their engine lube systems and so the surface force commander has ordered the entire 'fleet' stand down
22:48 mircea_popescu how many were they ? a dozen yet ?
22:49 ben_vulpes if even that
22:50 ben_vulpes one apparently destroyed an engine ("engineering casualty") and another hosed it's combining gears?!
22:50 mircea_popescu come to think of it, womenz also can't keep seawater out of their engine lube system, which is why surffucking is so strictly limited to teenagers.
22:50 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes i recall a month or so ago when this happened and they tried to blame it on the crew.
22:50 ben_vulpes thank goodness for perl
22:51 ben_vulpes ofc blame it on the crew, what is lockheed to deliver serviceable machines with complete manuals all of a sudden?
22:51 mircea_popescu but since it's invertible compiler day, http://nationalinterest.org/blog/the-buzz/why-russia-china-should-fear-americas-littoral-combat-ships-17440
22:51 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-07#1535582 << what am i looking at here?
22:51 a111 Logged on 2016-09-07 02:11 alice_: │ _ X ʷ ᵉ ʳ ᵗ ʸ ᵘ ⁱ ᵒ ᵖ _ _ _ │ │ _ X ᵂ ᴱ ᴿ ᵀ X ᵁ ᴵ ᴼ ᴾ _ _ _ │
22:52 alice_ https://github.com/alice0meta/scratch/blob/master/dotfiles/.keyrc
22:52 ben_vulpes subject of manuals, a onetime airforce honcho straigh up vetoed the delivery of f22 manuals in xml (!), as pilots couldn't take the un-sensitive stuff home without also taking the sensitive stuff home as it was delivered
22:53 asciilifeform alice_: apl, 'j', 'k' aficionado?
22:53 ben_vulpes and also, approximating his words "look with all the software problems they'd already delivered in the planes i wasn't about to impose more on the poor pilots during their studies. plus, opportunity to hose the suppliers."
22:53 asciilifeform 'lucid' ?
22:54 alice_ asciilifeform: never used any of those. a fan of some of their patterns. i'm a fan of a lot of patterns i've seen in a lot of different existing programming environments.
22:54 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes so they printed them ?
22:55 asciilifeform alice_: https://github.com/alice0meta/scratch/blob/master/regex_set.ζ << what, then, is this?
22:55 alice_ e.g. ML is a sharp, crystalline beauty, mostly useless for my direct purpose but v inspiring, 'cuz it's got several neat patterns that i don't see in most popular environments
22:55 ben_vulpes typeset properly and segregated vault-reading from home-reading as the story goes
22:55 ben_vulpes same guy was running ops when they took the f22s over the international date line
22:56 ben_vulpes "hooo boy lemme tell you about the hundreds of millions of dollars wasted on *that* mission!"
22:56 ben_vulpes "..."
22:56 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: as opposed to well-spent on other missions?
22:56 ben_vulpes "at which point we had ready teams hot on airfields on 2 continents!"
22:56 ben_vulpes well, what, as
22:57 ben_vulpes ^^ disregard
22:57 alice_ asciilifeform: prints a regex character class which matches all of the code points in utf8 stdin
22:57 asciilifeform in what?
22:57 trinque more importantly, are you now, or have you ever been a brony
22:57 mircea_popescu 80/20.
22:57 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: nobody's claiming the dollars are ever well spent, or that fucking is done in some new way
22:58 alice_ asciilifeform: ? like, if i paste the last several lines into it, i get \n -#'-:<>?LMX[\]-\_a-pr-zʳʷʸζᴱᴵᴼᴾ-ᵂᵉᵒᵖ-ᵘⁱ│
22:58 asciilifeform in ~what~ ??
22:58 alice_ stdout
22:58 asciilifeform my bash doesn't have a lambda.
22:58 mircea_popescu this is going well.
22:58 ben_vulpes (but hey that particular porno is worth a watch, and that particular report of wastage entertaining)
22:58 asciilifeform dunno where you got yours, alice_ .
22:58 asciilifeform jupiter?
22:59 asciilifeform !!up alice_
22:59 deedbot alice_ voiced for 30 minutes.
22:59 alice_ oh, are you asking what regex_set.ζ is written in? it's ζ, which is almost javascript
23:00 alice_ http://pastebin.com/raw/twiJaniQ
23:01 alice_ i can do Normal Startup Coding Style if i want to, i just hate it so i don't when i don't have to
23:03 alice_ trinque: i don't like your face
23:04 asciilifeform !!up gabriel_laddel
23:04 deedbot gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
23:04 trinque !!down alice_
23:04 asciilifeform !!up alice_
23:04 deedbot alice_ voiced for 30 minutes.
23:04 asciilifeform trinque: let it live
23:04 * trinque oinks a bit, allows
23:04 asciilifeform trinque: how we gonna know what it is if we don't plant it in agar.
23:05 mircea_popescu invertible agar ?
23:05 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: meet alice_ .
23:05 asciilifeform who had the honour of being suspected of being gabriel_laddel-in-his-cups
23:05 asciilifeform eh.
23:06 mircea_popescu maybe he's offended.
23:06 asciilifeform did his modem run out of petrol or wut.
23:06 alice_ usually i run modems on vegetable oil
23:06 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: didntcha post a photo of an invertible toilet once?
23:07 asciilifeform i cannot help but think of it now.
23:08 mircea_popescu possibly ? what'd it invert to ?
23:09 asciilifeform there was a box for a head at the outlet.
23:09 mircea_popescu aw fuck.... this is vaguely familiar...
23:09 asciilifeform manned, so to speak, on both ends.
23:10 trinque there's a whole genre of japanese porn of this
23:11 asciilifeform alice_: where do you keep the lambda on your physical kbd ?
23:11 trinque http://www.nudepetgirls.com/wp-content/images/human-furniture-sdms591.jpg << check it out, all kinds of furniture
23:11 mircea_popescu girlfurniture surely is a large fetish thing.
23:11 * asciilifeform sees odd leg count, EGGOGs
23:12 mircea_popescu YOU DON'T NEED ALL LEGS TO TABLE!
23:12 * asciilifeform then notices mirror.
23:12 alice_ ;l (chord of semicolon and L) , defined in https://github.com/alice0meta/scratch/blob/master/dotfiles/.keyrc#L10
23:12 mircea_popescu it's not mirror, it's just girl with black shoes has right leg behind white shoe's lef
23:12 asciilifeform or wait.
23:12 asciilifeform lel
23:12 asciilifeform alice_: chord?!
23:13 asciilifeform not even shift-meta etc, but chord!?
23:13 asciilifeform what if my right hand is tired.
23:13 asciilifeform what then.
23:13 alice_ yes. if the keys are pressed within a small number of milliseconds.
23:13 alice_ then you are a person whose right hand gets tired and you should not use this exact system
23:14 asciilifeform i know what is a chord.
23:14 BingoBoingo !~step5
23:14 jhvh1 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
23:14 trinque lol
23:14 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/?p=861 << proper chords are 1handed.
23:14 mircea_popescu ^
23:14 alice_ semicolon L is one handed
23:15 alice_ all chords i use frequently are one handed
23:15 asciilifeform lambda yes
23:15 asciilifeform alpha no.
23:16 alice_ i don't use α frequently
23:16 alice_ i added sd as a chord for ι because i do use ι frequently
23:17 asciilifeform for what.
23:17 alice_ it's my Standard pronoun, my It
23:17 alice_ most programmers use x or value
23:17 alice_ if they're smart enough to use a standard pronoun :P
23:17 asciilifeform what's wrong with 'it' ?
23:18 trinque or describing the damned value
23:18 asciilifeform as per grahm's original anaphorics system
23:18 alice_ violates huffman coding
23:18 alice_ huffman coding is important
23:18 asciilifeform how does it violate ?
23:18 alice_ short variables for simple common things; longer names for less common things
23:18 alice_ more complex things
23:18 mircea_popescu god almighty, it's like a pregnant idiot delivered stupid all over the fucking logs already.
23:18 alice_ a powerful pattern
23:18 mircea_popescu are you almost done asciilifeform ?
23:18 asciilifeform if i have to press 2 keys, it is 2 keys long.
23:19 alice_ so use x
23:19 alice_ i don't mind pressing s and d at the same time, myself
23:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i think this was sent to us as gift from ze godz per this morning's thread.
23:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu wins that one.
23:20 mircea_popescu mk, ima go to bed. if anyone wants to talk to me send tells, i'm not gonna be reading this log.
23:20 asciilifeform mircea_popescu and alice_ hasn't told us about cultivating multiple personalities yet !!
23:20 alice_ i haven't ever interacted with this channel before :(
23:21 asciilifeform but we know how to read...
23:21 trinque asciilifeform: they made more than one y'know
23:21 trinque mass produced even
23:21 asciilifeform trinque: eh wat?
23:21 trinque who are the other posited personalities
23:21 alice_ tell me about the thing you're confusing me with, i am curious
23:24 asciilifeform https://archive.is/ApHv4 << ?
23:24 trinque olol
23:25 trinque well I already mentioned another
23:25 asciilifeform trinque: show ?
23:25 asciilifeform 'i showed you mine, show me yours!'
23:25 alice_ yes, that's me
23:26 alice_ do you have questions about me or
23:26 asciilifeform alice_: describe, approximately, what is a you. (e.g., butcher, baker, oil prospector, bankrupt lisp programmer, etc) ?
23:27 trinque https://www.google.com/images?q=alice0meta << brony
↖
23:27 asciilifeform trinque: i have nfi what this is.
23:27 alice_ haha
23:27 trinque afaik you identify as a pony or some shit
↖
23:28 trinque alice_: pls explain.
23:28 alice_ that's cuz you're an asshole
23:28 alice_ i don't actually
23:29 asciilifeform and whatever, maybe alice_ identifies as an old rusted kriegsmarine anchor in scapa flow, scotland.
23:29 alice_ asciilifeform: i am a young transhumanist-hopeful type. i've supported myself with programming before; currently i'm living off savings & spending time studying shit
23:29 BingoBoingo <alice_> e.g. ML is a sharp, crystalline beauty, mostly useless for my direct purpose but v inspiring, 'cuz it's got several neat patterns that i don't see in most popular environments << "v inspiring" is a term of art here
23:29 alice_ i honestly can't tell if you're insulting me or complimenting me
23:30 asciilifeform alice_: what sort of programming ?
23:30 alice_ outside view says insult
23:30 asciilifeform vs what sort of view
23:30 alice_ mostly shitty website frontend & backend stuff
23:31 asciilifeform salt mine, eh.
23:31 alice_ outside vs inside view; from Kahneman
23:31 * asciilifeform bbl, dinner is served.
23:35 BingoBoingo !~step9
23:35 jhvh1 9. Made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
23:35 BingoBoingo ^ alf
23:36 BingoBoingo !!up alice_
23:36 deedbot alice_ voiced for 30 minutes.
23:41 BingoBoingo !~step3
23:41 jhvh1 3. Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood Him.
23:41 BingoBoingo ^ alice_ see above line
23:41 alice_ what
23:42 BingoBoingo work the fucking step in your everyday life, with exactly the desperation of the dying
23:42 alice_ um
23:42 alice_ i don't do christianity
23:43 BingoBoingo Many tried to find an easier, softer way, but they could not.
23:44 BingoBoingo alice_: Not Xtianity, bolt it onto the belief system of your choice
23:45 alice_ i'm looking for a harder, more powerful way
23:45 BingoBoingo Whether God as you understand him is Satan, Our Noodly host, or deedbot
23:45 BingoBoingo alice_: Then go to
23:45 BingoBoingo !~step4
23:45 jhvh1 4. Made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
23:45 trinque nb
23:45 alice_ p sure i did that
23:46 BingoBoingo k, then
23:46 BingoBoingo !~step5
23:46 jhvh1 5. Admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being the exact nature of our wrongs.
↖
23:47 alice_ am making progress on that. say 70% done.
23:47 BingoBoingo !~step6
23:47 jhvh1 6. Were entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
23:49 alice_ god's an asshole, and it's complicated. i'm ready for anything i can understand as progress.
23:50 BingoBoingo alice_: Well no you aren't because there's lots of logs to read that you haven't. Go back to step2.
23:50 BingoBoingo !!down alice_
23:51 BingoBoingo !~ty shinohai
23:51 jhvh1 You are very welcome Daddy
23:53 BingoBoingo !!up alice_
23:53 deedbot alice_ voiced for 30 minutes.
23:54 BingoBoingo !~step2
23:54 jhvh1 2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
23:55 alice_ you are horrifying
23:55 alice_ disgusting
23:56 BingoBoingo But I have an inner peace to match my outer peace. What do you have today?
23:56 alice_ inner peace
23:56 asciilifeform i walk out for half hour and they pull the bloody wings off, lol.
23:57 alice_ i actually only got it last saturday
23:57 alice_ it's really nice
23:58 alice_ asciilifeform: i am very confused by the social environment here :P
23:58 asciilifeform alice_: http://btcbase.org/log << enjoy.
23:58 asciilifeform http://log.mkj.lt/trilema << other mirror.
23:59 BingoBoingo !~tradition2
23:59 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Error: "tradition2" is not a valid command.
23:59 alice_ i know that's the log
23:59 alice_ $help
23:59 BingoBoingo !~later tell shinohai pls to add 12 traditions
23:59 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: The operation succeeded.
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