Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-02-20 | 2016-02-22 → ↓
00:04 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4450 @ 0.0005633 = 2.5067 BTC [-]
00:13 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26707 @ 0.00056327 = 15.0433 BTC [-] {2}
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00:40 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411789 << pretty sure it verified for me also.
00:40 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 04:12:28; mod6: for some reason, this guys friggin thing apparently wont verify, except for me. i seem to be the only one who has a gpg & his key that'll verify this damn thing
00:41 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411821 << no looky, it's not meant in that sense at all. just letting you know that we love you!
00:41 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 04:24:10; mod6: if someone knows what the problem is here, please submit. if testing is need, lets do it. all those things. telling me to take a break, or calm down, or take a vacation is not a solution.
00:43 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411859 << nope exactly what i think also. and i'm closer to the financial field than fucking hardware.
00:43 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 04:45:43; asciilifeform: also am i the only one to whom 'unbanked' evokes a way of connecting memory ?
00:44 mircea_popescu us-style retail banking is an abominable pile of nonsense the likes of which nightmares are made of.
00:44 mircea_popescu but in other news, chores! http://40.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m8h21v0J8e1rcdktuo1_1280.jpg
00:44 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/20MQMnm )
00:45 danielpbarron ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://danielpbarron.com/qntra-mint.asc.txt
00:45 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/20MQVXZ )
00:45 gribble The operation succeeded.
~ 15 minutes ~
01:01 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10798 @ 0.00056646 = 6.1166 BTC [+]
01:01 punkman asciilifeform: afaik we don't presently have a vtron that is capable of digesting everything incl. the old crud. << my vtron digests conflicting patches
01:02 punkman asciilifeform: (you will have to rename the dir manually, because DIFF IS RETARDED) << I'll do a punkdiff release this week
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01:02 mircea_popescu https://pbs.twimg.com/profile_images/698748328511696896/tHcNra2H_400x400.png << that's a pretty cool album cover lol.
01:02 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/20MSjd3 )
01:04 BingoBoingo danielpbarron: ty, great find
01:05 phf my v can beat up your v
01:05 deedbot- [Qntra] Linux Mint Server Compromised, Spread Malware - http://qntra.net/2016/02/linux-mint-server-compromised-spread-malware/
01:07 mircea_popescu nuts
01:14 BingoBoingo nuts, gotta protect them if you've got em'
01:16 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53552 @ 0.00056431 = 30.2199 BTC [-] {2}
01:17 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23716 @ 0.0005623 = 13.3355 BTC [-]
01:20 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29800 @ 0.00056151 = 16.733 BTC [-]
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01:38 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16750 @ 0.00056206 = 9.4145 BTC [+]
01:52 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60000 @ 0.00056151 = 33.6906 BTC [-]
02:04 deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 5.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Bernie Sanders will be Democrats' 2016 Presidential Nominee - http://bitbet.us/bet/1242/bernie-sanders-will-be-democrats-2016-presidential-nominee/#b22
02:04 deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 2.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Ted Cruz will be the Republicans' 2016 Presidential Nominee - http://bitbet.us/bet/1246/ted-cruz-will-be-the-republicans-2016-presidential/#b14
02:10 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27860 @ 0.00056078 = 15.6233 BTC [-] {4}
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02:27 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15202 @ 0.00055919 = 8.5008 BTC [-]
02:29 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 57598 @ 0.00055865 = 32.1771 BTC [-] {2}
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02:45 punkman https://www.drupal.org/project/misery
02:45 assbot Misery | Drupal.org ... ( http://bit.ly/1mPPUki )
~ 17 minutes ~
03:02 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 54088 @ 0.00055861 = 30.2141 BTC [-]
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03:29 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21700 @ 0.0005599 = 12.1498 BTC [+] {2}
03:32 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38950 @ 0.0005586 = 21.7575 BTC [-]
03:39 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56600 @ 0.00055813 = 31.5902 BTC [-] {3}
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03:55 ben_vulpes yo where da trinque at
03:55 ben_vulpes ;;later tell trinque yo hey yo hey
03:55 gribble The operation succeeded.
03:58 deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 2.03600000 BTC on 'No' - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match - http://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#b72
04:05 mats heatin up
04:15 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20200 @ 0.0005601 = 11.314 BTC [+]
04:16 ben_vulpes no mention of handicap
04:16 ben_vulpes that bet is going to surprise some people
04:17 ben_vulpes alphago can "win" with handicap of 12 stones and that bet goes green
04:17 ben_vulpes unless mp^H^Hmods decide 'overall' has some magical meaning
04:31 adlai so "some people" made an ass out of them and himself
04:41 adlai ;;later tell BingoBoingo http://dpaste.com/34BA0H6.txt
04:42 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1WAf171 )
04:42 gribble The operation succeeded.
04:51 adlai ;;later tell BingoBoingo /me accidentally a word http://dpaste.com/3WX0P03.txt
↖
04:51 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1WAfS7R )
04:51 gribble The operation succeeded.
04:58 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16300 @ 0.00055935 = 9.1174 BTC [-] {2}
05:05 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67200 @ 0.00056242 = 37.7946 BTC [+] {2}
05:16 mats i don't see why there would be a handicap now
05:17 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97621 @ 0.00056802 = 55.4507 BTC [+] {3}
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05:54 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53400 @ 0.00056679 = 30.2666 BTC [-]
06:03 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38673 @ 0.00056929 = 22.0162 BTC [+] {2}
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06:49 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76073 @ 0.00056944 = 43.319 BTC [+] {3}
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07:18 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38100 @ 0.00057002 = 21.7178 BTC [+]
07:24 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60219 @ 0.00056935 = 34.2857 BTC [-] {3}
07:28 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14997 @ 0.00056506 = 8.4742 BTC [-]
07:42 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6437 @ 0.00055919 = 3.5995 BTC [-]
07:50 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 68902 @ 0.0005579 = 38.4404 BTC [-] {2}
07:54 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43120 @ 0.00055889 = 24.0993 BTC [+]
07:59 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5600 @ 0.00055768 = 3.123 BTC [-]
08:03 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes> that bet is going to surprise some people << "overall" covers it imo
08:03 mircea_popescu what's so magical about it ?
08:05 mircea_popescu but in other news, http://40.media.tumblr.com/f6b4810f7b7499277a3b9424f2aeac37/tumblr_mveinsoBEr1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg
08:05 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Qs0Ooc )
08:09 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11900 @ 0.00055768 = 6.6364 BTC [-]
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08:37 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14800 @ 0.00055861 = 8.2674 BTC [+]
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09:06 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7953 @ 0.00056231 = 4.4721 BTC [+]
09:07 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18050 @ 0.00056859 = 10.263 BTC [+]
09:14 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20719 @ 0.00056916 = 11.7924 BTC [+]
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09:38 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32850 @ 0.00056267 = 18.4837 BTC [-] {2}
09:42 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 117647 @ 0.00055821 = 65.6717 BTC [-] {2}
09:43 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51450 @ 0.00055739 = 28.6777 BTC [-] {2}
09:45 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3610 @ 0.00055708 = 2.0111 BTC [-]
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10:38 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29050 @ 0.00055661 = 16.1695 BTC [-]
10:39 asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411879 << imho this will have to be a thing that is solved in one Final Solution shot, with turing-complete diff. we can NOT have 1,001 incompatible hacked gnudiff variants floating around in attempted use, it is chaos and death by ants.
↖
10:39 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 06:02:08; punkman: asciilifeform: (you will have to rename the dir manually, because DIFF IS RETARDED) << I'll do a punkdiff release this week
10:40 asciilifeform it is why i settled on straight gnudiff instead of trying 'clever' things
10:42 mircea_popescu turing complete diff ?!
10:42 mircea_popescu what's the diff if loop ?
10:43 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this is a continuation of a thread almost as old as 'v' - consider the tinyscheme-genesis patch, shiva, and the 'pedigree bridge'
10:43 asciilifeform we have this atrocity because gnudiff is incapable of renaming a directory without MORONICALLY --- -ing EVERY FUCKING LINE of every file and +++ -ing it in again
10:43 asciilifeform likewise file deletions
10:43 mircea_popescu no argument there.,
10:44 asciilifeform and more generally, unix 'patch' output was not really designed for human eyes
10:44 asciilifeform nor was the thing in any sense designed at all, really.
10:44 asciilifeform just grew, like fungus.
10:44 asciilifeform like most open sores crud.
10:45 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if this was not clear, there is not presently any such thing as turing-complete diff/patch
10:46 asciilifeform but it is one of the things that must come to exist, for sanity.
10:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform> nor was the thing in any sense designed at all, really. << quite very much this.
10:47 mircea_popescu i just don't see the gap between "cleanly covers corner cases" and "is turing complete" bridged.
10:47 asciilifeform because 'cover corner cases' through 'enumerated' is braindamage.
10:47 mircea_popescu you can't put a kernel in every single thing including the diff utility!
10:48 asciilifeform no kernel, just a little scheme interpreter.
10:48 mircea_popescu ah that's what you had in mind.
10:48 asciilifeform could've guessed, aha ?
10:48 mircea_popescu listen, if you say "diff should parse scheme" instead of "diff should be turing complete" people'd follow a lot easier.
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10:49 mircea_popescu i for instance judged that since you DON'T say the obvious, you specifically do not mean the obvious.
10:49 mircea_popescu why'd i guess like when talking to 16yos on saturday night ?
10:49 asciilifeform well it technically doesn't have to be scheme. draft ver of 'p' for instance is more forth-like.
10:49 mircea_popescu anyway, i can see it.
10:50 asciilifeform 'v' as we have it now, or at least as it appeared in my initial publication, was a very hasty and premature, wartime wunderwaffen thing
10:50 asciilifeform it was really only half-gestated.
10:51 asciilifeform the adult version as i envision it is much more like what is described above.
10:56 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 188096 @ 0.00056155 = 105.6253 BTC [+] {3}
10:57 mircea_popescu "The simplest way to generate a patch is to use ‘diff -Naur’ (see Tips for Patch Producers), but you might be able to reduce the size of the patch by renaming or removing some files before making the patch. If the older version of the package contains any files that the newer version does not, or if any files have been renamed between the two versions, make a list of rm and mv commands for the user to execute in th
10:57 mircea_popescu e old version directory before applying the patch. Then run those commands yourself in the scratch directory."
10:57 mircea_popescu speak of "not designed at all".
10:58 asciilifeform aha recall this from early trb days ?
10:58 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49500 @ 0.00057 = 28.215 BTC [+]
10:58 asciilifeform specifically 'chicken'
10:58 asciilifeform what a fuckingmisery
10:58 asciilifeform (chicken was what i nowadays call a 'pedigree bridge')
10:59 mircea_popescu aha.
10:59 mircea_popescu in truth the situation here is that we don't even know much of the stuff we need until we need it,
10:59 asciilifeform which is why turingcompletefinalsolution.
10:59 mircea_popescu nor do we know the banal names of banal things until after we've made them, because unlike posterity, we don't have the advantage OF FUCKING SANE ANTECESSORS.
10:59 mircea_popescu we're born of snails and other oratanii
11:00 asciilifeform nobody said terraforming planets would be easy...
11:00 mircea_popescu asciilifeform complete solutions are rarely best solutions tho. too heavy.
11:00 mircea_popescu complete tank solution includes oil well.
11:00 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: this is a misconception, in this case. weigh my tinyscheme vs gnudiff!
11:00 asciilifeform any metric you like - lines, complexity, hours to read
11:01 asciilifeform complete solution made from ~orthogonal pieces~ is the magic sword which weighs as a feather.
11:01 * mircea_popescu is not arguing against tinischeme
11:02 asciilifeform it is also how you get 'no motherfucking updates ever, weld into concrete' while still getting exactly what is needed at every juncture.
11:02 shinohai https://i.imgur.com/1ZafV6N.jpg
11:02 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1SKdCwE )
11:02 * asciilifeform wonders about the hypertrophied labia 90%+ of porn chix seem to have
11:04 mircea_popescu that's hyper ?
11:04 asciilifeform i suppose if mircea_popescu tells me that it is standard, i will believe.
11:04 mircea_popescu you can't even see it ?
11:05 mircea_popescu you mean the outer labia ?
11:05 asciilifeform aha
11:05 asciilifeform labia majora
11:05 mircea_popescu that's mostly just fat/position tho.
11:05 asciilifeform hm.
11:07 mircea_popescu there's been this weirdo trend of (mostly anglo) girls getting worried about their labia minora being "wrong", mostly on account of thgere being a LOT of natural variation on that score, and anglo chicks being all weird and insecure and sexually inexperienced. plus of course the crazed marketing society, that feeds into all of the above.
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11:18 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40436 @ 0.00056906 = 23.0105 BTC [-]
11:21 polarbeard so I've been playing a bit with shiva, I'm developing a simple hook mechanism, here's a preview https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/f5c5b02a2ce7c1a69c77
11:21 assbot shiva_hooks.patch · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/20NQyMF )
11:22 polarbeard thoughts?
11:22 asciilifeform polarbeard: why all the crud ?
11:23 asciilifeform why reverse_in_place, mk_list, marshall, etc. in cpp ?
11:23 polarbeard re: my patches, I'm trying to keep an up to date version of them on my github trb repo, wouldn't mind submitting to the ml if somebody asks
11:23 polarbeard utility functions?
11:23 asciilifeform these should be in scheme.
11:23 asciilifeform everything that can be in scheme, MUST BE.
11:23 polarbeard marshall should be in scheme?
11:24 asciilifeform explain to me why it is even necessary.
11:24 polarbeard CNode marshalling
11:24 asciilifeform WHY
11:25 polarbeard because I'm marshalling per value type, not per hook type
11:25 asciilifeform shiva.cpp as i originally wrote it, includes all of the trb headers. you can form scheme data structures handily without engaging in weird cppisms, just by iterating over, e.g., the node list, and forming scheme list while you do it.
11:25 polarbeard that's what I do
11:26 asciilifeform and what is this ? >> https://gist.github.com/polarbeard/f5c5b02a2ce7c1a69c77#file-shiva_hooks-patch-L142
11:26 assbot shiva_hooks.patch · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/20NR2ma )
11:26 polarbeard I'm just encapsulating the functionality
11:26 asciilifeform this is not an explanation.
11:26 polarbeard that was a bug fix
11:26 asciilifeform do you know what an explanation is ?
11:26 asciilifeform WHAT BUG
11:26 asciilifeform if you found an ACTUAL bug, that should be OWN PATCH.
11:27 polarbeard this is not a vpatch, don't you see that?
11:27 asciilifeform i do
11:27 asciilifeform but it is also not an anything else.
11:27 asciilifeform it is an example of everything i stand against.
↖
11:28 polarbeard so, what you're going to do with ts then?
11:28 asciilifeform i did give example.
11:28 asciilifeform for one thing, i won't be implementing list reversal in cpp !
11:28 asciilifeform for another, bug fixes are their own patches, one per bug, that must contain nothing else.
11:29 polarbeard I won't be adding unnecessary code to init.scm
11:29 asciilifeform on the contrary, that is the ideal place for all new code pertaining to shiva.
11:29 asciilifeform anything that is not going there, must answer why.
11:29 polarbeard I'll split the bug fixes into their own vpatches when the time comes
11:29 asciilifeform please do.
11:29 asciilifeform these i will happily read, and sign.
11:29 polarbeard atm I just wanted to dump what I'm working for, to get constructive feedback
11:29 asciilifeform but doings in cpp what can be done inside tinyscheme, i will not.
11:30 asciilifeform and i hope this is good feedback.
11:31 asciilifeform see, the big thing here,
11:31 asciilifeform is that by 'marshalling' the pointers, you are introducing trb's leakages into tinyscheme.
11:31 asciilifeform (not to mention, bloating the code, but this is secondary)
11:31 asciilifeform the point of shiva is PRECISELY the opposite
11:31 asciilifeform 1) to have the cpp content of trb asymptotically go to ZERO with time
11:32 asciilifeform 2) to THERMONUKE the idiot leaks.
11:32 polarbeard never, I'm not translating trb to scheme
11:32 polarbeard that's pointless and a waste of time
11:32 asciilifeform nobody asked you to. but try also refrain from translating shiva to cpp, and spreading the leak metastases into it ?
11:32 polarbeard so you embedded scheme for that reason?
11:33 asciilifeform for the time being, with the more modest goal of abolishing the rpc module.
11:33 asciilifeform but yes, in the long run it is intended as a prosthesis to take over where the brain damage of the original is incurable.
11:34 asciilifeform (for n00bs or readers who have not been keeping up, 'shiva' is a highly experimental affair and not to be considered part of mainline trb!)
11:35 asciilifeform and also in case polarbeard missed last night's thread,
11:35 asciilifeform the magic of 'v' is that polarbeard does NOT have to agree with me!111
11:35 asciilifeform he is free, and encouraged to, produce his own schismatic shiva, and sign it, and who knows, folks may come to prefer it to mine.
11:35 polarbeard I agree with you on that
11:36 polarbeard yes, I'm not surprised that you have a different point of view, and I'm even pleased I think
11:37 asciilifeform from my naked eye reading, your thing will run until the first gc cycle.
11:37 asciilifeform but i can't promise this, and can't be bothered to test, for reasons already described.
11:37 polarbeard it actually stores the callbacks
11:37 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10937 @ 0.000569 = 6.2232 BTC [-]
11:39 polarbeard it works well, but still simple hooks because only a single callback may be registered per hook, not sure yet if there will be need for callback management
11:46 jurov http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411948 << have you looked into 'ed' diffs? but yes, they can't rename directory either.
11:46 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 15:39:46; asciilifeform: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411879 << imho this will have to be a thing that is solved in one Final Solution shot, with turing-complete diff. we can NOT have 1,001 incompatible hacked gnudiff variants floating around in attempted use, it is chaos and death by ants.
11:48 asciilifeform jurov: i've looked into everything.
11:48 phf dat patch, can take them to water, can't make them drink
11:49 asciilifeform and i'm not very interested in 'can do all but X' widgets.
11:49 asciilifeform i demand X, even values of X i don't yet know about.
11:49 asciilifeform hence turingcompletevtron.
↖
11:49 asciilifeform and srsly, 'ed' ?! not meant for human reading any more than 'patch'.
11:50 asciilifeform it is almost exemplary of the opposite of what we need here.
11:51 oglafbot http://oglaf.com/merrymen/
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11:51 assbot Merry Men ... ( http://bit.ly/20NTIjC )
11:53 jurov asciilifeform: either it's 'can do all but X' or turing complete and thus with potentially unbounded runtime
11:53 asciilifeform jurov: the magic trick is that there is no such thing as unbounded runtime on my box.
11:53 asciilifeform there is exceed-bound-and-i-negrate
11:54 asciilifeform we have finessed the halting problem !1111
↖
11:54 jurov also, you imply basically to expose all filesystem primitives to scheme, are they comprehensively and soundly defined?
11:55 jurov i smell you'll eventually end with different presses in diff machines due to different filesystem semantics
11:55 jurov who're you negrating now?
11:56 asciilifeform any future folks who might think they are being clever with, e.g., nonterminating vtron program.
11:56 asciilifeform jurov: what do you have with different filesystem semantics ? vax ?
11:56 asciilifeform msdos ?
11:56 pete_dushenski http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412011 <-heh-> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412086
11:56 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 16:07:32; mircea_popescu: there's been this weirdo trend of (mostly anglo) girls getting worried about their labia minora being "wrong", mostly on account of thgere being a LOT of natural variation on that score, and anglo chicks being all weird and insecure and sexually inexperienced. plus of course the crazed marketing society, that feeds into all of the above.
11:56 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 16:51:03; oglafbot: http://oglaf.com/merrymen/
11:57 jurov while you slept, "modern" filesystem implementors deemed to fit to reorder operations to improve performance
11:57 asciilifeform glorious!
11:57 asciilifeform show me example ?
11:57 asciilifeform 'i deleted this first before reading, faster!1111'
11:58 asciilifeform srsly, we are there already ??
11:58 phf i recall riastradh making an srfi proposal for a minimum subset of filesystem operations. could just implement it for tinyscheme
11:58 phf http://mumble.net/~campbell/proposals/filesys.text
11:58 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1SZUPh4 )
11:59 asciilifeform phf: this was on my list of things to include, but i wanted to 'take it slow.'
11:59 asciilifeform i did not include the tcp module for ts either
11:59 asciilifeform though i have it
12:00 jurov https://github.com/google/leveldb/issues/195
12:00 assbot Possible bug: fsync() required after calling rename() · Issue #195 · google/leveldb · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1SZUZ8a )
12:00 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16450 @ 0.00055661 = 9.1562 BTC [-]
12:00 asciilifeform gotta love these 'optimizations'
12:00 asciilifeform see also the gcc5 threads
12:00 jurov lol looky now i'm the one to predict crapocalypse
12:01 asciilifeform anyway this particular crapocalypse is avoidable, at least on our planet. BAN any heathen fs.
12:02 asciilifeform instruct new users that they must operate on a sane fs.
12:02 phf ext2
12:02 asciilifeform and much as i loathe the idea, we will probably have to nail down our own linux distro.
12:03 jurov which fs is sane? which mount options?
12:03 asciilifeform jurov: i've been using reiserfs for ~decade.
12:03 asciilifeform with 0 issues.
12:04 asciilifeform the fact that reiser was jailed cemented it as permanently high-quality, no one wants to touch it, no 'progressors' progressate at it, no gnomes, no popularizers!111, etc.
↖
12:04 asciilifeform appears that it was bug-free as it was.
12:09 asciilifeform sooo
12:10 asciilifeform gotta do a few things to the mains wiring, i (and zoolag) will be down for 30 min. to an hour.
12:10 asciilifeform starting now.
12:21 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6400 @ 0.00055655 = 3.5619 BTC [-] {2}
~ 46 minutes ~
13:07 phf added patch highlight to btcbase (got tired of trying to visually locate patches in the graph)
13:07 phf for example http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=stable&search=showmyip
13:07 assbot trb ... ( http://bit.ly/1ow0Y7q )
13:08 phf or my favorite http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=stable&search=asciilifeform
↖
13:08 assbot trb ... ( http://bit.ly/1ow16nt )
13:09 deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'No' - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match - http://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#b74
13:16 BingoBoingo ;;ticker --market all
13:16 gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 432.66, vol: 13065.58845587 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 432.623, vol: 11650.44569 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 436.5, vol: 54646.13980057 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 440.0, vol: 0.60533968 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 442.360947, vol: 67064.74420000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 432.1104, vol: 898.75107699 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 425.870649, vol: 71.32973054 | Volume-weighted last (1 more message)
13:16 BingoBoingo ;;more
13:16 gribble average: 438.487963423
13:19 BingoBoingo ;;bc,stats
13:20 gribble Current Blocks: 399479 | Current Difficulty: 1.6349165490895926E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 401183 | Next Difficulty In: 1704 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 6 days, 12 hours, 34 minutes, and 17 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
13:27 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 45150 @ 0.00055747 = 25.1698 BTC [+]
13:39 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97155 @ 0.00056091 = 54.4952 BTC [+] {2}
13:40 mod6 so with that build script, i'm thinking just take out the curl & --verify of that stupid .sign file.
13:43 mod6 still will check the hash of the buildroot artifact.
13:44 mod6 gonna try that out locally here.
13:44 mod6 i guess, the other good news to that is you wont need to import that rando's guy's key into your keyring. still would need mine, alf & trinque's tho.
13:51 danielpbarron oh mod6, with a fresh .bitcoin/ directory, your new thing seems to work fine
13:56 * kakobrekla is back
13:56 kakobrekla logs tell me no one missed me, great :)
↖
13:58 pete_dushenski don't believe everything you don't read
13:58 ben_vulpes bitbet is broken kakobrekla
13:58 ben_vulpes also assbot
13:58 ben_vulpes and irc
13:58 jurov and assbot's stuff is swollen
13:59 ben_vulpes you keep irc working right?
14:00 kakobrekla looks like i returned prematurely
14:00 ben_vulpes wait come back
14:00 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu's javascript also doesn't work in every browser
14:02 ben_vulpes mod6: perhaps hard code the hashes from korsgaard's signature and verify those?
14:03 phf ben_vulpes: they are like md5 and sha1
14:03 mod6 ^
14:04 * kakobrekla had a blast snowboarding the prime slopes of Dolomites region of Alps
14:04 mod6 i think this was actually discussed quite some time ago. i dont remember what the sentiment was exactly. but i think it was like "meh"
14:04 mod6 danielpbarron: ok thanks for the update
14:06 mod6 anyway, i guess i don't mind, i can add a part where we check the SHA1 & MD5 of the buildroot artifact and then continue to verify that .sign file.
14:06 phf kakobrekla: i went camping in the Appalachian last weekend, -20c w/ winds, but it was awesome. i did just enough trash talking about russian blood to come down with a flu by thursday...
14:06 kakobrekla l0lz
14:06 kakobrekla meanwhile i was the only person in sauna yesterday evening
14:08 phf as soon as i can move again, i'm going to make it to russian&turkish baths in nyc. they don't really do saunas on the east coast, but that baths place is awesome
↖
14:08 ben_vulpes mod6: while there's no harm in checking the .sign, i don't know what it buys us
14:09 ben_vulpes also that signature is disturbingly short
14:09 kakobrekla really no saunas? whats the deal with that?
14:09 mod6 ben_vulpes: yeah, i dunno what the deal is with it, seems to not work exactly as expected.
14:10 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10150 @ 0.00056778 = 5.763 BTC [+] {2}
14:11 phf i hnfi. these people do "spas", but the sauna part is typically a joke
14:12 mod6 im gonna look again at what happens with 1.4.19 & that sign file.
14:12 phf there's literally 4 places in the entire virgnia-connecticut stretch. maybe there's something up in Massachusetts. there's "east european" places ran by russians but with a lot of turks, etc. and then there's korean baths. but koreans frown on cold plunges, so they would usually have a tepid shower/pool
14:13 kakobrekla im fine with shower only as long as you can set the temp to whatever you want
14:14 mod6 ok, so right, with 1.4.19 it has that WARNING at the end: http://dpaste.com/1BZA8NQ.txt
14:14 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1UgmUQg )
14:14 phf yeah, korean places are not bad, but i know only of one that caters specifically to koreans (i.e. good heat), a lot of them are western oriented so massage and facials and such
14:16 phf this place is great http://www.russianturkishbaths.com if you're ever in nyc
↖
14:16 assbot 010813rtbh ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ugn6PB )
14:17 deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Donald Trump gets Republican Nomination - http://bitbet.us/bet/1206/donald-trump-gets-republican-nomination/#b104
14:17 ben_vulpes ha wow did the shitgnomes snip that mod6 ?
14:18 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 64900 @ 0.0005694 = 36.9541 BTC [+] {2}
14:19 mod6 hrm?
14:19 mod6 ah, no idea.
14:19 mod6 so ... https://buildroot.org/downloads/
14:19 assbot Index of /downloads ... ( http://bit.ly/1ow8JKK )
14:20 mod6 in here there seem to be .sign files for the .tar.gz's, but they seem to have .gpg's for the tar.bz2's
14:20 mod6 im gonna take a look at that instead.
14:21 mod6 ooh... not for our version :(
14:21 mod6 guess that only started with the version /after/ our version 2015.05
14:21 mod6 lol ofc
14:22 mod6 oh nm, looks like those are only there for an RC version?
14:22 mod6 ok. ya
14:22 ben_vulpes apparently
14:23 mod6 heh, these guys built this huge thing, but their sign files only have SHA1 & MD5, even the most recent 2016.02
14:23 mod6 wth
14:24 mod6 why even bother?
14:25 mod6 im starting to think that our SHA512 sum of this artifact is better than whatever they've got.
14:30 * asciilifeform ears stand up!
14:32 phf illustration: ^- http://www.somepets.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/06/manul4.jpg
14:32 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1UgoEZZ )
14:33 ben_vulpes mod6: yeah.
14:33 * ben_vulpes imagines stan's face shooped onto the manul
14:33 asciilifeform exactly this, aha.
14:35 asciilifeform mod6: tell me which tarballs, i will dig out my originals and sum
14:36 asciilifeform in other nyooz, from the depths, http://www.newsbtc.com/2016/02/21/xapo-announces-plans-to-upgrade-to-bitcoin-classic
14:36 assbot Xapo Announces Plans to Upgrade to Bitcoin Classic ... ( http://bit.ly/1ow9SSp )
14:41 mod6 asciilifeform:this is the one that we're pulling
14:41 mod6 http://buildroot.uclibc.org/downloads/buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz
14:41 mod6 we expect this sha512:
14:41 mod6 c42fdd39cb2bc46804a86a7d7b2605bd3cd9ddcb365c4e5a1fb147eb02b234fc31a70c8140be2f4d27cd371c84e0c6701f8cb47697dd1c18dd0e0cce784aa07a
14:42 danielpbarron https://twitter.com/Joseph_Young_ << literally philippino
14:42 assbot Joseph (@Joseph_Young_) | Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1owaasp )
14:43 asciilifeform c42fdd39cb2bc46804a86a7d7b2605bd3cd9ddcb365c4e5a1fb147eb02b234fc31a70c8140be2f4d27cd371c84e0c6701f8cb47697dd1c18dd0e0cce784aa07a
14:44 asciilifeform downloaded may 31 2015.
14:44 asciilifeform i have, i think, also earlier buildroots
14:44 asciilifeform if anyone wants.
14:44 asciilifeform and their tars.
14:44 asciilifeform and their cached crapolade.
14:45 mod6 ok great
14:45 mod6 yeah, here's what i've got in total: http://dpaste.com/35XDBSS.txt
14:45 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1owaqYA )
14:46 mod6 the md5 & sha1 match the sign file
14:46 ben_vulpes c42fdd39cb2bc46804a86a7d7b2605bd3cd9ddcb365c4e5a1fb147eb02b234fc31a70c8140be2f4d27cd371c84e0c6701f8cb47697dd1c18dd0e0cce784aa07a
14:48 mod6 what we really aught to do is write to that guy, get him to join the wot with a 4096 bit RSA key, and have him resign all of the bundles.
14:49 mod6 or at least, just the one we're using.
14:49 ben_vulpes "the army we have"
14:50 mod6 want me to do it?
14:50 mod6 i can do that.
14:50 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41550 @ 0.00056304 = 23.3943 BTC [-] {2}
14:51 danielpbarron which guy?
14:51 mod6 "Peter Korsgaard <jacmet@uclibc.org>"
14:52 ben_vulpes it's just another thing in the way of wrapping this up, mod6 .
14:52 ben_vulpes asciilifeform produced legacy hashes, they match the ones i have on disk and the ones you have right?
14:53 mod6 sure sure.
14:53 mod6 just thinking that hey, cant hurt anything to enlighten the guy that these hashes that he's signing, even up to this current month are obsolete.
14:53 asciilifeform obsolete?!
14:53 asciilifeform what even is this
14:54 mod6 SHA1 & MD5 are broken are they not?
14:54 asciilifeform ah this yes
14:54 asciilifeform do we have a confirmed collision here ?!
14:54 asciilifeform i.e. different sha512 but same sha1/md5 ?
14:55 mod6 anyway, an open line of comms to these folks could help us -- especially going forward as we basically might need to "roll our own" so that it doesn't pull the deps via rsync.
14:55 mod6 asciilifeform: not as far as i've seen.
14:56 ben_vulpes my sha1 and md5 match those in k's .sign
14:59 mod6 so as far as the build-bitcoind-V99995.sh is concerned. let's just check that hash and call it a day then.
15:00 mod6 i've updated the script here: http://www.mod6.net/btcf/build-bitcoind-V99995.sh
15:00 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1mOPSt7 )
15:00 asciilifeform phf: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412134 << this is very spiffy
15:00 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 18:08:18; phf: or my favorite http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=stable&search=asciilifeform
15:01 mod6 take a look, i've removed 3 lines: 1. in the comment section where it lists PK's key fingerprint at the top 2. the curl that pulls the sign file for buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz.sign 3. the gpg command that verifies buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz.sign
15:02 jurov with my `cwd` problem yest, looks like i have ran into http://www.perlmonks.org/?node_id=304587 :(
15:02 assbot why does ignoring sigCHLD corrupt return value from system()? ... ( http://bit.ly/1UgrlLc )
15:02 * asciilifeform looks
15:02 jurov why do i keep getting such obscure stuff...
↖
15:02 mod6 c2ed1ccbb6769ada764b6d31e7a06873860c422109c4f8506cbda04402243c0534c9555f44f4c47071ebc3d6e3ece720b84de2940a2639381ef77652b34c3030
15:02 mod6 sha512 for build-bitcoind-V99995.sh is now ^^
15:02 mod6 jurov: do you mean `pwd' ?
15:03 jurov yes pwd
15:03 jurov basically, perl's fork() stopped working
15:03 mod6 what version of *nix & what version of perl
15:03 jurov much joy
15:03 asciilifeform jurov: whatddyamean 'stop working' ?!
15:04 asciilifeform as in, cosmic ray ?
15:04 asciilifeform or did you... update the box.
15:04 jurov gentoo, perl 5.20.2
15:04 jurov i updated glibc with the patch
15:04 asciilifeform aaaaah
15:04 jurov for getname
15:04 asciilifeform which patch ?
15:04 mod6 pwd is used iirc in v.pl, but only in the contex of it being a shell out - your environment should execute this and return the result to a scalar.
15:04 jurov gethostbyname
15:04 asciilifeform well yes
15:04 asciilifeform but ~which patch~
15:05 mod6 fork() shoudn't even be a consideration here... im confused.
15:05 phf yeesh, when shiva fails to read init.scm it kills the whole bitcoind there and then
15:06 asciilifeform phf: kills how ?
15:06 jurov mod6 `pwd` call subprocess
15:06 jurov hence, fork
15:06 phf Shiva: new session, connected from 127.0.0.1:49563
15:06 phf libc++abi.dylib: terminating with uncaught exception of type std::runtime_error: Shiva: failed to read init file!
15:06 phf run: line 4: 67621 Abort trap: 6
15:06 mod6 perl doesn't care about what subprocesses a unix command may or may not use tho.
15:06 asciilifeform phf: and this is the correct behaviour (IF SHIVA IS ENABLED), just needs to happen cleanly and humanely. does it ?
15:06 asciilifeform ah this is CORRECT phf.
15:06 jurov asciilifeform: how do i list patches that went into glibc-2.22-r2 ?
15:07 mod6 it'd be like doing the same thing in a bash script: PWD=`pwd`; echo $PWD;
15:07 phf oh i agree, it should kill, just not without prejudice
15:07 phf (i.e. no reason to corrupt db in the process)
15:07 asciilifeform jurov: look in the portage cache, possibly. but you might have to diff with previous.
15:07 mod6 jurov: fwiw, i do a huge % of testing on a gentoo env with perl 5.20...
15:08 asciilifeform phf: possibly it ought to die before the db is opened.
15:08 mod6 v5.20.2 for x86_64-linux
15:08 phf well, init.scm is read on each connection, since there's no persistence
↖
15:08 jurov mod6 well, on another box i updates glibc to same version and perl works fine
15:08 jurov *updated
15:09 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39300 @ 0.0005655 = 22.2242 BTC [+]
15:09 mod6 weird
15:14 mod6 so again, this is because somehow V thinks that your pwd is in / ?
15:14 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41214 @ 0.00056467 = 23.2723 BTC [-] {2}
15:15 mod6 are you in / when executing V, by doing something like `/path/to/where/V/is/actually/located/v.pl`
15:15 mod6 because then your pwd would be /
15:16 mod6 and it'll look for .wot in /
15:16 punkman http://archive.is/DZy45
15:16 assbot Should enQ Get To Sell Spots In IRS Phone Queue? - Forbes ... ( http://bit.ly/1UgsJ0j )
15:18 jurov mod6 noooo, pwd is external program. it failed to run it and returned nothing
15:18 jurov and nothing + '/.wot' is...
15:18 mod6 ok, so pwd just fails as is.
15:19 mod6 what does `which pwd` tell you?
15:19 jurov but don't mind, this is my private mess
15:19 jurov even system('ls') fails
↖
15:19 mod6 im simply curious here, never seen a pwd fail before.
15:19 mod6 oooh.
15:20 mod6 yeah, probably need to re-chroot or whatever it is with gentoo
15:20 mod6 asciilifeform or trinque have any thoughts for the man?
15:21 mod6 in other news jurov, im about to re-send the emails from yesterday
15:22 jurov yay just recompiled perl without thread support, that did the trick
15:22 jurov mod6 go on
15:22 mod6 wait, now it works?!?!
15:22 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44345 @ 0.00057003 = 25.278 BTC [+] {2}
15:22 ben_vulpes lol thread support did it huh?
15:22 jurov yes, both my perl and turdatron
15:23 mod6 lemme see if i get this. perl with thread support broke your entire gentoo?
15:23 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12655 @ 0.0005712 = 7.2285 BTC [+]
15:23 asciilifeform i have nfi
15:23 jurov not entire. just occassional problems with perl scripts like v.pl and autotools
15:24 mod6 but i thought you said that `ls` and `pwd` didn't work, like in your shell. that shouldn't have anything to do with perl.
15:24 mod6 my mind is blown. these are C binaries.
15:24 jurov THEY DID WORK
15:25 jurov but perl failed to execue them!
15:25 jurov most perl scripts meddle with $SIG so they worked fine
15:25 mod6 but, say, normal use; you log in, you get a shell, you type `ls` and that would just work as expected right?
15:26 jurov yes, everything worked. except perl -e "print system('ls') or die $!" returned just -1
15:26 mod6 ahhhh
15:26 mod6 ok.
15:26 mod6 then that makes a bit more sense.
15:27 mod6 maybe i should rewrite V in C
15:28 jurov as i said, don't mind. it's my problem, i should not avoid dubious USE flags
15:28 mod6 well, someday maybe. still a dog with fleas.
15:28 jurov *i should avoid
15:28 shinohai btw mod6 I have reproduced it again just fine this morning Deb 8 and Ubuntu 14.04
15:29 mod6 ah, ok good deal shinohai. I updated the script so that it doens't even pull that .sign file. we'll just rely on the sha512 that I hvae, alf has, and ben has.
15:29 mod6 the link is above if anyone wants to give it a try.
15:29 shinohai works for me
15:30 asciilifeform phf: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412300 << as stated in the comments, i regard this as a serious loose end that must be tied before anyone can even contemplate using a shivatronic trb in the battlefield
15:30 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 20:08:29; phf: well, init.scm is read on each connection, since there's no persistence
15:30 mod6 shinohai: ok cool! im running mine right now
15:31 mod6 im making a `typescript' of the output as well. will post later when its complete.
15:31 shinohai Me too did u get my pm with the address to node stats?
15:31 mod6 ah, ya, haven't looked yet tho.
15:31 * mod6 looks
15:32 mod6 cool!
15:32 mod6 9 connections, there soemthing i don't see everyday.
15:33 mod6 thanks for your help all. much appreciated.
15:33 shinohai Sometimes gets as many as 12
15:33 mod6 wow. cool.
15:33 mod6 so once we're happy with this build-script, etc. we cna update that wiki, then we're back in sync. then I can take some time to get the makefiles stuff all organized.
15:34 mod6 no super rush there.
15:34 mod6 just only was in a hurry to get back into sync.
15:35 mod6 jurov: glad you got it resolved tho. let us know how it goes for you.
15:35 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 144950 @ 0.00057256 = 82.9926 BTC [+] {4}
15:35 jurov it did compile the bitcoind, the problem was intermittent
15:36 mod6 ok now to resend those emails...
15:36 mod6 wish me luck lol
15:37 ben_vulpes > 9 connections << coracle currently serving 13 strangers
15:38 ben_vulpes and in other nyooz of the weird and strange saga of ben_vulpes endeavoring to set up a reference implementation on his heathen macintosh, buildroot fails to compile in linux virtual machines of all sorts of flavors
15:38 * ben_vulpes gives up again
15:38 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: post moar detail ?
15:38 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: fwiw it builds on 'centos', ubiquitous
15:38 phf i have it running in a frowned upon state. cmake, llvm, clang
15:39 mod6 huh, yeah wouldn't have expected that
15:39 ben_vulpes here's the last line, asciilifeform: x86_64-therealbitcoin-linux-musl-gcc: internal compiler error: Segmentation fault (program cc1)
15:39 mod6 and this is a gentoo VM? or ubuntu?
15:39 asciilifeform phf: this is not useless, you can do the thing with the call graph even
15:39 ben_vulpes phf: share your weird!
15:39 asciilifeform phf: i have long wanted to get this working, so i can haz call graph
15:39 asciilifeform which gcc refuses to disgorge
15:39 ben_vulpes mod6: under gentoo the vm simply gives up on life
15:40 ben_vulpes mod6: under ubuntu 14.04 running make in buildroot exits as above
15:40 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: lemme guess: gcc 5
15:40 ben_vulpes heh
15:40 asciilifeform KILL IT WITH FIRE
15:40 asciilifeform and try again.
15:40 ben_vulpes i didn't even check.
15:40 mod6 yeah, maybe alf has it
15:40 asciilifeform 4.9 is already broken for some cases
15:41 ben_vulpes gcc (Gentoo 4.6.3 p1.13, pie-0.5.2) 4.6.3
15:41 phf ben_vulpes: i'm building it from inside Clion, so i'm not sure how easy it is to do cmake otherwise, i can share the diff though
15:41 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: hm, ought to work
15:41 * ben_vulpes shrugs
15:41 asciilifeform but wtf is 'pie'
15:41 mod6 jurov: lol, those emails envetually went through!!!?!
15:41 ben_vulpes is this perversion even worth running down?
15:41 mod6 glad i checked or they would have been in there 2x.
15:42 ben_vulpes i figured this for more of a "half bottle of wine in a girl's butt" report. entertainment, not science.
15:42 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: any such perversion is ~always~ worth running to ground
15:42 asciilifeform it is how we discovered the libnss thing
15:42 asciilifeform and other evils
15:42 mod6 yaaa, i recall this
15:42 jurov mod6: what mail provides do you use? trying to resend email for 3 days is standard
15:42 asciilifeform pretty much everything we have, we have because someone ran the motherfucking gnomes to ground, each time.
15:42 asciilifeform ben_vulpes's turn.
15:43 mod6 jurov: evil mail
15:43 ben_vulpes to be frank, i have no idea how this gentoo image was even built in the first place.
15:43 asciilifeform waiwut
15:43 asciilifeform i thought you built it ?
15:43 asciilifeform or where, found on the street ?
15:43 ben_vulpes no, 'twas some abortion pulled in via 'atlas', 'hashicorp'
15:44 asciilifeform what even is that
15:44 mod6 ;;later tell pete_dushenski here's that change log you wanted: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-February/000213.html
15:44 assbot [BTC-dev] mod6's V [in perl] version 99995 K ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ugvezz )
15:44 gribble The operation succeeded.
15:44 phf ben_vulpes: you brought this upon yourself :D
15:44 ben_vulpes 'easy development environments for derpvelopers on macintosh!'
15:44 ben_vulpes phf: it's a hobby
15:44 asciilifeform this is where i repeat mircea_popescu's admonition not to eat from dumpsters.
15:45 ben_vulpes but the phood is phr33!
15:45 asciilifeform quite.
15:45 mod6 haha. also gives you the shits.
15:45 ben_vulpes as demonstrated!
15:45 mod6 hahahahahaha
15:46 mod6 ugh. man. computers right?
15:51 jurov butbutbut riced dumpsters!
15:51 asciilifeform unrelatedly, http://www.applelogic.org/files/6502SCHEMATIC.pdf
15:51 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1QTtHKq )
15:52 asciilifeform ^ apparently the whole thing. 1 page.
15:52 phf man, writing scheme is like trying to build an eiffel tower out of toothpicks
↖
15:52 asciilifeform phf: only the first time. it then turns into a steel beam you can use to build proper towers.
15:53 phf once i bootstrap entire cl you mean? (define-macro (destructuring-bind ...
15:53 asciilifeform aha.
15:53 asciilifeform incidentally, tried slib ?
15:53 phf no
15:53 phf will look
15:55 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47900 @ 0.00056373 = 27.0027 BTC [-] {2}
15:58 deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'No' - Marco Rubio will be Republicans' 2016 Presidential Nominee - http://bitbet.us/bet/1205/marco-rubio-will-be-republicans-2016-presidential-nominee/#b17
16:00 mircea_popescu i shall now proceed to read the scrollback!
16:00 mircea_popescu god help the man that takes a nap during republican times.
16:00 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412040 << lol that escalated quickly.
16:00 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 16:27:59; asciilifeform: it is an example of everything i stand against.
16:01 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: read his thing, mega-recommended.
16:01 asciilifeform will see why.
16:01 mircea_popescu o no. i'm not going to arbiter on code matters.
16:01 mircea_popescu consensus process, bitches.
16:01 asciilifeform don't need to. but see the thing in question, imho it is more or less the perfect example of what not to do.
16:02 mircea_popescu lol k.
16:03 mircea_popescu heh.
16:03 mircea_popescu so the guy is more familiar with cpp, naturally wants to isolate the weird he's taking in and take it in at controlled rate.
16:04 mircea_popescu won't be accepted in trb by any means, but i dun see anything wrong wiht the process.
16:04 mircea_popescu gotta figure it out somehow.
16:04 asciilifeform well it pull in the direction precisely opposite to shiva.
16:04 asciilifeform *pulls
16:04 asciilifeform while being nominally a shiva patch.
16:05 asciilifeform and i am all for the fella figuring things out, so long as he understands this, and the ~why~.
16:05 mircea_popescu eh it doesn't pull anything. think about it : it is a modest, quiet hope, specifically that shiva/b-a/trb is actually heavy enough that it may pull him.
16:05 mircea_popescu there's nothing wrong with treating your baby as a chunk of bedrock, you know.
16:05 ben_vulpes what even was the point of the schemehooks?
16:05 mircea_popescu tied some ropes to it and pulling on them, technically yes "this pulls the earth the wrong way". practically, tis alpinism.
16:06 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: multifold point. most realistically, and in the short term, to abolish the json rpc crapolade.
16:06 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: more generally, and later, as an internal debugger.
16:06 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: much more generally, and much later - as potential replacement for entire chunks of the rotten flesh.
16:08 ben_vulpes these are the original hooks? i misread
16:08 asciilifeform there are no useful hooks yet.
16:08 asciilifeform there is a demo, which was supplied with the original patch, that gets block count, and another knob that quits.
16:08 phf asciilifeform: he's asking about SchemeHook from polarbeard's patch
16:09 asciilifeform ah
16:09 mircea_popescu myeah.
16:09 asciilifeform these, i think, are meant to be debug hooks
16:09 asciilifeform but ask him, not me.
16:12 mircea_popescu and in the world's most amusing porn news, "pregnant male doctor grabs boob" http://41.media.tumblr.com/cbf106747cae91ec1e7fa6bbad5fcbe9/tumblr_mlvjrxMRnl1qlne6uo1_1280.jpg
16:12 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1QTvMpJ )
16:13 asciilifeform l0l this one's for BingoBoingo
16:13 mircea_popescu imo the "skelet" thing on the wall totally makes it.
16:13 asciilifeform aha.
16:13 mircea_popescu modern if unintentional art.
16:15 jurov at least he has he stethoscope on
16:15 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412083 << total fucking misnomers alf won't let go of with his lyf!
16:15 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 16:49:27; asciilifeform: hence turingcompletevtron.
16:15 asciilifeform hm?
16:16 mircea_popescu what [i believe] you have in mind when ytou say "tc" in thsi context is pointedly not what most anyone reading it would expect it to mean.
16:16 asciilifeform it means what everybody's kindergarten textbook had it mean!11
16:16 mircea_popescu but a very... haskellite, even, theoretical notion.
16:16 asciilifeform how?
16:17 asciilifeform all i ask for is that vtron be able to specify arbitrary transformations, e.g., 'replace every letter a with b', rather than the +++/--- imbecility.
16:17 mircea_popescu in that it's "turing complete in a purely theoretical sense and with none of the practical overhead a practical implementation would imply except in those cases where it is clearly and truly needed".
16:18 jurov ^yes i was hinting at this too
16:18 asciilifeform i suppose, like every other time before, i am doomed to demonstrate ~by example~...
16:18 mircea_popescu in this sense cunt is turing complete, it can express all proteins.
16:19 mircea_popescu good luck getting the fps to do so, however.
16:19 phf i think the idea is to have a slightly more constrained awk. patchmachine takes string, manipulates it, returns new string
16:20 mircea_popescu phf my mental model is essentially "awk without regexp"
↖
16:20 asciilifeform phf: specifically not awk and nothing like awk.
16:20 jurov no the ide was patchmachine takes *filesystem* and ditto
16:20 asciilifeform enough with the arbitrary nonorthogonal craplangs.
16:20 jurov *idea
16:20 mircea_popescu asciilifeform what other than regexp do you hate in awk ? and being gnucpp, of course.\
16:21 asciilifeform plenty.
16:21 asciilifeform e.g., not homoiconic
16:21 phf jurov: or that
16:21 asciilifeform no lambda.
16:21 asciilifeform no proper arrays even.
16:21 jurov lol first me tormenting alf with ed, now they awk
16:21 mircea_popescu ok, you know, say that! "i want a homoiconic thing with lambda", rather than "tc"
16:21 asciilifeform hey vdiff is in awk.
16:21 mircea_popescu which is what the first pass of this convo actually exactly was, iirc.
16:22 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411970
16:22 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 15:48:49; mircea_popescu: listen, if you say "diff should parse scheme" instead of "diff should be turing complete" people'd follow a lot easier.
16:22 asciilifeform anyway if i already knew what this needs to look like, i'd have already written it.
16:22 mircea_popescu obviously.
16:22 asciilifeform it needs to come out of the 'resistance of the medium' from the sort of thing we find ourselves doing with regularity.
16:22 mircea_popescu which is why one'd expect a lot more alma matering of stuff like polarbeard's.
16:23 mircea_popescu he's bound to run into a shitton of resistance of the medium in short order with that thing.
16:23 asciilifeform if only it were so simple. do you notice what most programming types do when they run into a forest ?
16:23 asciilifeform they build bulldozer, drive right through the oaks.
16:23 mircea_popescu aha.
16:23 jurov maybe we'll end up with vtron that actually allow to implement source code parser inside vpatches so that it computes checksums for every function
16:23 asciilifeform as described by naggum, http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3144404199547949@naggum.no.html
↖
16:23 assbot source access vs dynamism - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/217BSgV )
16:23 mircea_popescu maybe we could name it php!
16:24 jurov and the graph will be made from these checksums
16:24 jurov so that descendants will list code snippets the actually depend on
16:24 jurov instead of whole files
16:24 asciilifeform jurov: forget about usefully parsing cpp.
16:25 asciilifeform it is quite likely undecidable.
16:25 asciilifeform (make of this what you will)
16:25 jurov someone inewitably will try it anyway. and i wish to see your face upon seeing vpatch with embedded cpptron
16:26 asciilifeform i am quite certain that every possible thing will be tried.
16:26 phf vpatch generating mandelbrots
16:26 asciilifeform betcha somebody's very busy stuffing the winblowz crud back in, for instance.
16:26 asciilifeform and somewhere, probably not too far from each of us,
16:26 asciilifeform a pig is eating its own shit.
16:26 asciilifeform what of it.
16:27 mircea_popescu jurov> someone inewitably will try it anyway. and i wish to see your face upon seeing vpatch with embedded cpptron <<< abhahaha win
16:28 jurov actually, that's logical conclusion of what you want. instead of "teh stupid +++ --- stuff" make c++ parser, apply a transform and generate code
16:28 asciilifeform jurov: do you know why not ?
16:28 asciilifeform because it is HEAVY
16:28 asciilifeform remember 'fits in head' ?
16:29 jurov arbitrary text transformations like you dream of do not fit in head
16:29 asciilifeform sure they do.
16:29 asciilifeform tinyscheme fits in head.
16:29 asciilifeform and it can do it.
16:29 asciilifeform and it isn't even as slim as it could be.
16:29 jurov then it couild also parse c++
16:29 jurov it's arbitrary text transformation, too
16:29 asciilifeform jurov: you are welcome to try parsing cpp, it would be a pretty useful proggy incidentally
16:30 asciilifeform but the last time i asked for one, no one found any other than 'clang'.
16:30 asciilifeform the language is gargantuan, just enough parser to ~compile~ is likely to take you a decade to write.
16:30 asciilifeform and no one will read.
16:30 mircea_popescu incredibly enough, afl's objections actually carry.
16:31 mircea_popescu "arbitrary text transformations" but only between these two sets we carefully curated.
16:31 mircea_popescu exactly like how human sciences work.
16:31 mircea_popescu asciilifeform now stop calling it "tc" and confusing people. concept needs a new name.
16:32 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: lacking a rigorously narrower complexity class, i am stuck with tc
16:32 asciilifeform but if you have one, let's.
16:32 mircea_popescu this is like saying "i want a whaleoctopusdeerkitten" because you dunno how to say girlfriend
16:32 asciilifeform nah more like 'i need a bipedal mammal'
16:33 mircea_popescu backpedal more like it amirite
16:33 mircea_popescu snort snort nudge nudge
16:33 ben_vulpes i read 'tc' in the sense of 'can express arbitrary actions', in the vein of the old joke about programming in $shitlang: "hey, it's turing complete, we can make it do whatever we need"
16:33 ben_vulpes brainfuck etc
16:34 mircea_popescu if a name is not produced we'll just call it alf-tc
16:34 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: you are thinking of 'turing tarpit'
16:34 asciilifeform '... where everything is possible but nothing of interest is easy'
16:34 mircea_popescu quite.
16:34 mircea_popescu !up Jacmet
16:34 mircea_popescu check it out, stolen plutoniumz.
16:34 asciilifeform best h0stn4m3
16:35 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: yup.
16:35 mircea_popescu is it supposed to say "stolen plutonium dick" ? possibly only better thing.
16:36 Jacmet mircea_popescu: ;)
16:36 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412091 << this is not even wrong ftr.
16:36 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 16:54:08; asciilifeform: we have finessed the halting problem !1111
16:36 mircea_popescu Jacmet who're you and what are you doing here ?
16:36 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: how's that
16:36 mircea_popescu nono. i don't mean THAT "not even wrong"
16:36 asciilifeform ah l0l
16:36 mircea_popescu i mean to convey my surprise and giddy excitement as to how it's not wrong.
16:36 asciilifeform 'if all you have is Unix, certain problems are so staggeringly tall that it takes an extra special genius to see what the _real_ problem is because all the people who are trying to climb it make it look as if doing something else is stupid.' << naggum delivers.
16:37 mircea_popescu but lacking a better complexity class...
16:37 asciilifeform ahahaha
16:37 Jacmet mircea_popescu: got a mail that you guys were doing something with Buildroot and if I could join?
16:37 mircea_popescu o hey!
16:37 mircea_popescu we are : it's become the replacement harness for bitcoin.
16:37 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43850 @ 0.00057355 = 25.1502 BTC [+]
16:37 ben_vulpes whoa hey
16:37 mircea_popescu and buildroot with musl prevented us from bathing in the same humiliation EVERYONE else ended up in with the recent gethostbyaddr thing
16:37 Jacmet mircea_popescu: ahh, interesting
16:37 ben_vulpes Jacmet: are you K?
16:38 mircea_popescu so listen, register your gpg key with assbot.
16:38 Jacmet mircea_popescu: and buildroot is working out of you or do you have some kind of problems?
16:39 Jacmet s/of/for/
16:39 ben_vulpes Jacmet: buildroot is working rather niftily.
16:39 mircea_popescu so far it's working splendidly afaik.
16:39 mircea_popescu !s buildroot
16:39 assbot 251 results for 'buildroot' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=buildroot
16:39 asciilifeform been working splendidly for nearly a year.
16:39 Jacmet mircea_popescu: great
16:41 mircea_popescu so get in teh wot, you have a lot of love here.
16:41 Jacmet and yes, the current gpg key used for buildroot signing is getting quite old
16:41 mircea_popescu aha.
16:42 mircea_popescu that would be the one problem - the thing is a very valuable security asset, should be better protected.
16:42 mircea_popescu make a 4kb key and use it rather than the strange md5 lists or what's that.
16:43 asciilifeform Jacmet: as you probably know, buildroot is a coveted boobytrap target for 1,001 miscreants of various stripes.
16:43 Jacmet mircea_popescu: true. I'll get the new key cross signed by the other devs at our next dev days and start using it
16:43 asciilifeform Jacmet: and some folks have downloaded tarballs that don't pass checksum.
16:43 Jacmet asciilifeform: really? We never had reports on the ml or on irc
16:44 asciilifeform consider this a report.
16:44 mircea_popescu asciilifeform where was the line/dpaste ? dja recall ?
16:44 asciilifeform digging for it now
16:44 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5413 @ 0.00057355 = 3.1046 BTC [+]
16:45 asciilifeform but most recently, today
16:45 Jacmet asciilifeform: what was the difference between the bad/good tarball? Real rogue code or just interrupted download?
16:46 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412151 << aww don't feel bad!
16:46 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 18:56:36; kakobrekla: logs tell me no one missed me, great :)
16:46 asciilifeform Jacmet: i unfortunately do not have it presently.
16:47 mircea_popescu Jacmet what is it, #buildroot ?
16:47 Jacmet asciilifeform: ok, I would be *VERY* interested in comparing them
16:47 Jacmet mircea_popescu: yes
16:47 asciilifeform as would i.
16:48 mircea_popescu and in unrelated news, do you take bitcoin donations Jacmet ?
16:48 Jacmet mircea_popescu: I guess we could, but it has never come up so far
16:48 asciilifeform Jacmet: the background: i originally picked up buildroot to do an arm system build for an obscure box. and then discovered that it is also the only practical means of compiling with musl instead of glibc, for any system
16:48 asciilifeform and here we are.
16:48 mircea_popescu so get that sane key made, reg it and sign an address, i'll send you a coin.
16:48 Jacmet mircea_popescu: we're currently setting up a non profit organization around buildroot
16:49 mircea_popescu that's a horrible idea if the wya such things work out in practice is any guide.
16:49 Jacmet asciilifeform: ok
16:49 mircea_popescu pick a strong leader in the form of a person, build your thing atop pgp sigs and forget the nonsense fiat.
16:50 Jacmet mircea_popescu: we already have that (me ;)
16:50 mircea_popescu so don't make the mistake.
16:50 mircea_popescu it fucked up everyone to date.
16:51 ben_vulpes !s linus
16:51 assbot 148 results for 'linus' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=linus
16:51 mircea_popescu x.org just recently lost their only asset because of inept "non profit" shenanigans.
↖
16:51 ben_vulpes !s de raadt
16:51 assbot 35 results for 'de raadt' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=de+raadt
16:52 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23928 @ 0.00056222 = 13.4528 BTC [-]
16:54 mod6 Jacmet: thanks for stopping in.
16:55 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: can't seem to find it in the logz
16:55 Jacmet mod6: you're welcome
16:56 asciilifeform Jacmet: i dare say that linux is only meaningfully alive today in the form of buildroot.
16:56 ben_vulpes Jacmet: another thing worth pointing out are that sha1 and md5 are obsolete
16:57 Jacmet ben_vulpes: yes, the key is from 2009 or so, where those were the defaults
16:58 ben_vulpes whats the connection between key and file hash algos?
16:58 asciilifeform Jacmet: if you open a nonprofit org, esp. in usa, you will be surrounding yourself with, and eventually giving control over various aspects of the project, to people who do not work in good faith.
16:59 asciilifeform as happened with, famously, openbsd.
17:00 asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=16-02-2016#1407023 << thread.
17:00 assbot Logged on 16-02-2016 16:36:23; asciilifeform: now the other thing about openbsd is the incident with theo and that microshit flunkie
17:00 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> make a 4kb key and use it rather than the strange md5 lists or what's that. << RSA too.
17:01 asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=02-12-2015#1335360 << more
17:01 assbot Logged on 02-12-2015 04:13:47; BingoBoingo: "On a personal "hate ramen noodles and tuna" level, I agree. But my good-for-project-good-for-the-world side says the OpenBSD Foundation is more effective at growing the contribution pie and in particular funding the hackathons where great work happens." - Theo De Raadt
17:01 asciilifeform !s bob beck
17:01 assbot 27 results for 'bob beck' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=bob+beck
17:05 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37241 @ 0.00056222 = 20.9376 BTC [-]
17:05 asciilifeform !up Jacmet
17:12 asciilifeform ;;later tell phf http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=release << broken ?
17:12 assbot 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/24l9iYC )
17:12 gribble The operation succeeded.
17:13 phf huh, indeed
17:16 phf asciilifeform: ah, sorry i did a rename
17:16 phf while early in the game, stable, experimental, uploads and deprecated
17:17 phf you want http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=stable
17:17 assbot trb ... ( http://bit.ly/24l9VkL )
17:17 phf actually i don't know how to call them..
17:17 mircea_popescu Jacmet give a looksee at how buildroot is currently used
17:17 mircea_popescu mod6 got a link to the current sh ?
17:17 mod6 yeah.
17:17 * mod6 finds
17:18 mod6 http://www.mod6.net/btcf/build-bitcoind-V99995.sh
17:18 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1mOPSt7 )
17:19 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23200 @ 0.00056651 = 13.143 BTC [+]
17:20 Jacmet mod6: thanks. Any specific reason you guys are still on 2015.05?
17:21 asciilifeform Jacmet: know of any specific reason why we oughta use a newer one ?
17:21 Jacmet mod6: and why the manual download of openssl/db/boost instead of just letting Buildroot do it?
17:21 mod6 np. well, we've been working for quite a while now to get all of this tooling setup the way we need it. we haven't had a reason to move forward with the version.
17:21 Jacmet asciilifeform: newer and shinier ;)
17:21 asciilifeform Jacmet: we permenently froze specific versions.
17:21 asciilifeform of all dependencies.
17:22 asciilifeform the 'why' of this is best illustrated by the heartbleed incident.
17:22 mircea_popescu Jacmet tmsr doth not believe in upgrades. on the contrary, the versions here count towards 0.
17:23 Jacmet asciilifeform: E.G. updated openssl, there's been some security fixes since 1.0.1g
17:23 mod6 <+Jacmet> mod6: and why the manual download of openssl/db/boost instead of just letting Buildroot do it? << actually, one thing I think we're considering is doing a modification to buildroot so that we don't pull its deps over the wan via rsync. is there a way, currently, to just place all of its deps somewhere so it won't rsync?
17:23 asciilifeform Jacmet: we don't use tls for anything, nor ever intend to.
17:24 Jacmet mod6: yes, the download infrastructure in buildroot will only download if the tarball isn't already available in the dl dir, or you can point it to a local mirror
17:24 phf Jacmet: bitcoind uses openssl for low level crypto operations, not actual client facing stuff
17:24 Jacmet asciilifeform: ok
17:24 mod6 Jacmet: oh fantastic, glad i asked.
17:24 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42350 @ 0.0005679 = 24.0506 BTC [+] {3}
17:25 mod6 i was sweating that we were going to have to 'roll our own'.
17:25 mod6 :]
17:26 mircea_popescu moreover, it's marked for replacement. just, iffy thing to replace, the crypto lib.
17:35 mod6 Ok Gentlemen, I've gotta run for a few here. Jacmet: Thanks again for stopping in. When you're ready with your new key, stop on back and we'll help you get setup in the WoT. Cheers!
17:35 mod6 !up Jacmet
17:38 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28528 @ 0.00056222 = 16.039 BTC [-]
17:38 polarbeard mircea_popescu: so no love for da hooks? :) actually I'm not confortable at all using cpp...
17:39 mircea_popescu what do you normally use ?
17:40 polarbeard my daily work involves the rightfully hated javascript
17:40 mircea_popescu oic.
17:40 mircea_popescu pretty alien this whole landscape huh ?
17:41 polarbeard but I usually prefer expressive non-bullshit languages
17:41 polarbeard cpp is full of it
17:41 mircea_popescu i would suspect as far as alf is concerned, javascript is cpp.
17:42 BingoBoingo javascipt is worse, cpp on top of cpp
17:43 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412184 << speaking of which, ever tried tourianski's establishment ?
17:43 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 19:16:07; phf: this place is great http://www.russianturkishbaths.com if you're ever in nyc
17:44 phf no, what's that?
17:45 mircea_popescu mmm danielpbarron's gf was iirc a canadian bath gal.
17:45 mircea_popescu lemme see, should be in logs.
17:46 mircea_popescu well not directly apparent. nevermind i guess
17:47 phf oh, is that some other bathhouse in nyc?
17:47 mircea_popescu might have been vancouver or something.
17:49 phf aah, i'll ask him when he's around, but that's west coast. they have great saunas there
↖
17:50 mircea_popescu i'm sorry, just a vague memory at this point.
17:50 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 152914 @ 0.00057355 = 87.7038 BTC [+] {2}
17:51 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15386 @ 0.00057356 = 8.8248 BTC [+]
17:53 phf fwiw cascade range has a bunch of fantastic hot spring places. there's one next to Seattle, one next to portland, i mean of the the ones i've been too. but there's also numerous holes of course
17:54 asciilifeform http://www.visual6502.org/images/6502/index.html << moar for old thread re: same.
17:54 assbot 6502 Images ... ( http://bit.ly/1L47Tza )
17:54 phf in fact i'm going to breitenbush two weeks from now, in the ben_vulpes area
17:54 * mircea_popescu is not terribly fond of hot springs, for some reason they attract old folks.
17:57 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412261 << that's pretty weird.
17:57 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 20:02:18; jurov: why do i keep getting such obscure stuff...
17:57 phf i used to do the whole 30 minute run through winter forest for a cold plunge in прорубь thing growing up, so i like hotsprings in winter. you get a pretty reasonable crowd around this time too, no idea how it is in summer
17:57 mircea_popescu sounds like perhaps an actual buffer hole or something.
17:58 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22114 @ 0.00057356 = 12.6837 BTC [+]
18:06 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412317 << wtf.
18:06 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 20:19:18; jurov: even system('ls') fails
18:10 BingoBoingo Fiat system https://archive.is/Pw5Yr
18:10 assbot Jared Carrabis on Twitter: "Welp. Here it is. Via the @BostonGlobe, the picture that everyone's going to be talking about tomorrow. https://t.co/FbWPrm8DfH" ... ( http://bit.ly/1L49wg0 )
~ 15 minutes ~
18:26 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412433 << this is where i point and laugh at you and mumble sometrhing about alf's admonition not to eat out of schemes
18:26 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 20:52:04; phf: man, writing scheme is like trying to build an eiffel tower out of toothpicks
18:28 BingoBoingo ;;ticker --market all
18:28 gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 437.7, vol: 11075.47017945 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 434.15, vol: 9701.36175 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 440.53, vol: 43990.17093531 | CampBX BTCUSD last: 440.0, vol: 0.60533968 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 448.2492, vol: 65369.96210000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 432.3158, vol: 870.71229551 | Bitcoin-Central BTCUSD last: 436.63648, vol: 71.6372979 | Volume-weighted last average: (1 more message)
18:28 BingoBoingo ;;more
18:28 gribble 443.61158638
18:29 ben_vulpes phf: popular place with the ru folk in the area
18:29 ben_vulpes heck of a journey tho
18:41 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7900 @ 0.00057396 = 4.5343 BTC [+]
18:48 gernika phf: Had a terrible vegetarian thanksgiving dinner at Breitenbush. I did see a naked woman there though, as a teenager.
18:57 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39300 @ 0.00057396 = 22.5566 BTC [+]
18:59 mircea_popescu what'd you say to her ?
19:05 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 95836 @ 0.00057389 = 54.9993 BTC [-] {2}
19:06 BingoBoingo https://i.sli.mg/8gpczk.png
19:06 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1QaxI0S )
19:18 mircea_popescu asciilifeform for the record this " the reason that source access is needed is the same as the cause of the problem: the inability to modify system behavior non-intrusively. if one could modify OPEN on any given system to acquire new behavior _without_ compiling a new OPEN or, even if you did, without re-linking the entire system (thus the need for dynamic linking and similar solutions, too), source code access would
19:18 mircea_popescu be entirely immaterial." is rank idiocy.
19:18 mircea_popescu he is correct in that foss is mostly a problem unto itself, making the previous situation worse rather than better.
19:19 asciilifeform it is only possible to understand what naggum said if one is familiar with clos.
19:19 mircea_popescu nevertheless, the "solution" he contemplates is of the level of "because inept us-style corporatism displays all the sechelae you'd expect if you got a bunch of farmers to say how cars should look, let's everyone run in traffic!"
19:20 mircea_popescu i do not WISH to run an "open" which may acquire unspecified powers in the future if the caller rubs its belly just right.
19:20 mircea_popescu the principal specification of any machine, not JUST computers, not just software stacks, not just lines of code, is to specify what it can never do.
19:21 asciilifeform naggum also suffered from a kind of garden of eden innocence in re: that he never once showed any sign of understanding sabotage
19:21 mircea_popescu right ?
19:21 asciilifeform aha.
19:22 asciilifeform then again he did pay for src licenses
19:22 asciilifeform and read.
19:22 mircea_popescu what he's talking about it is fractal they shall be delivered thing
19:23 asciilifeform how so?
19:23 mircea_popescu how so. how the fuck are you EVER going to sign off on any code when it is not possible to say what function call will never do ?
19:24 asciilifeform this 'never do' exists only if you burn into rom and then pour concrete around it.
19:25 mircea_popescu currently our substance is drawn specifically from the fact that for the past 2-3 decades, these twerps approached the problem of functionality ("the software doesn't do enough") with nary a clue about the problem of feedback ("the software does too much")
19:25 asciilifeform otherwise you might cat /dev/random > /dev/mem
19:25 asciilifeform and get a different do...
19:26 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the sufficient and necessary concrete is readily available and of an abstract kind. i needn't any actual calcium carbonate to say various things about various bits of code.
19:26 asciilifeform but you do.
19:26 mircea_popescu i just mark it as broken.
19:26 mircea_popescu as for instance with openssl above.
19:26 asciilifeform the promises made by a c machine are false promises.
19:26 asciilifeform and certainly not protocol.
19:26 mircea_popescu this is a separate problem.
19:27 mircea_popescu that the concept is poorly implemented is a separable and in fact separate problem from that the concept is broken
19:28 asciilifeform these are not actually separate, causally
19:28 mircea_popescu we had a few threads about this. i suppose it's still an open q.
19:29 asciilifeform c machine is an exquisite study in what 'broken concept' actually means in practice.
19:29 asciilifeform it is a braindamaged model of computation that breeds fractal braindamage throughout.
19:30 mircea_popescu that may well be so. "with dirty hands no clean pages will be written".
19:30 asciilifeform not even hands, just an arse sliding around, inscribing in fecal ink.
19:32 gernika mircea_popescu: I don't recall saying anything. Probably because I was pretending: "no big deal." or something.
19:32 mircea_popescu teenagers, tsk tsk.
19:35 mircea_popescu "(4) you could communicate your desire for a system-wide improvement to someone who could put it in the official sources and you could add your changes conditionally." << see specifically how he manges the very pointed difference discussed in http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-02-2016#1411186
19:35 assbot Logged on 20-02-2016 22:20:40; mircea_popescu: moe finds bitcoin in 2056, long after the republic prevailed, through his gf at the time. he steals her script, copies her .wot directory and now has a node!
19:35 mircea_popescu i kinda wonder if naggum had lived to see b-a, whethger it'd have been passionate love or some sort of weird hate thing.
19:40 asciilifeform naggum was an old-worlder. in the very specific sense of taleb et al
19:40 asciilifeform for him, quality proggy is something created at a company, by experts, for money.
19:40 mircea_popescu not necessarily wrong.
19:40 asciilifeform aha.
19:41 mircea_popescu not really related to the discussion here, either.
19:41 mircea_popescu he doesn't believe, eg, math, is "something created at mit"
19:41 mircea_popescu even if he may or may not believe any particular building is the result of some people who did some calculations in private for money.
19:41 asciilifeform well not as such. but he very much saw it as something ~not~ created by teenagers in mother's basement
19:41 asciilifeform which is largely true.
19:41 mircea_popescu largely yes.
19:42 mircea_popescu except if everyone had plutonium induced braindamage from the fashion of eating plutonium pills
19:42 mircea_popescu then it would be.
19:42 asciilifeform quite.
19:42 mircea_popescu and lest you think such a thing is "impossible" : ustards ate off lead plates for many years, and even blamed tomatoes for hallucinated poisonousness.
19:42 asciilifeform hell, romans.
19:43 mircea_popescu all this because they really wanted to be as cool as the euros and didn't comprehend that faking it till you make it just gives you saturnism
19:43 mircea_popescu nah, romans used it for plumbing.
19:43 mircea_popescu and wrote down that you're not supposed to flint, michigan.
19:43 asciilifeform iirc also goblets ?
19:43 asciilifeform for the taste
19:44 mircea_popescu iirc that wasn't ever more than say tit implants
19:44 * asciilifeform can see it
19:45 deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 2.94000000 BTC on 'Yes' - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match - http://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#b76
19:56 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13562 @ 0.00056708 = 7.6907 BTC [-]
~ 38 minutes ~
20:35 phf pocorgtfo http://glyf.org/tmp/shiva-swank.png
20:35 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1QsL1W9 )
20:40 asciilifeform phf: very neat, and exactly what i wanted!
20:40 asciilifeform share?
20:45 phf of course
20:46 phf right now it's a bit jury rigged though. most intrusive is the addition of "keywords" to scheme.c, i.e. :foo evaluates to :foo
20:48 asciilifeform for some reason i thought that this was already there, selectably
20:48 asciilifeform hm.
20:48 mircea_popescu oya
20:49 phf they have some package hack foo::bar (and not foo:bar), which mostly just breaks things
20:50 asciilifeform ah.
20:50 asciilifeform thing needs readermacros
20:51 phf yes.
20:51 asciilifeform then you : could simply equal '
21:00 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37563 @ 0.00057387 = 21.5563 BTC [+] {2}
21:04 asciilifeform in other lulz, looked for discussion of the alphago bet, and found ...
21:04 asciilifeform https://www.facebook.com/yudkowsky/posts/10153941386639228
21:04 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1QsMICR )
21:09 deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 1.00000000 BTC on 'Yes' - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match - http://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#b77
21:09 mircea_popescu i'm not gonna click on fb.
21:10 asciilifeform 'I have one bet on at 2:3 against AlphaGo winning against Sedol in March - they get my $667 if AlphaGo wins, I get their $1000 if AlphaGo loses. Does anyone else like those odds? (They originally offered me $1000 to $1500 and I've decided that I regret not taking the full amount.) EDIT: Have reached current betting capacity on Sedol at $1500 to $2250, others may still be taking bets.' << the whole thing.
21:10 asciilifeform dated feb 8.
21:11 mircea_popescu mmmkay...
21:11 mircea_popescu https://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/
21:11 assbot BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match :: 30.73 B (53%) on Yes, 27.63 B (47%) on No | closing in 2 weeks 1 day| weight: 61`697 (100`000 to 1) ... ( http://bit.ly/1QsN9gt )
21:12 mircea_popescu ;;calc ( 30.73 + 27.63) * 443.61158638
21:12 gribble 25889.1721811
21:12 mircea_popescu amusingly bitbet is the largest pool on that topic on the whole internets, nobody seems to be aware of the situation.
21:12 asciilifeform ;;google alphago bet
21:12 gribble BitBet - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match ...: <https://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/>; Computer Go player 'AlphaGo' defeats pro in even game for first time ...: <https://gogameguru.com/alpha-go-fan-hui/>; In a Huge Breakthrough, Google's AI Beats a Top Player at the ...: <http://www.wired.com/2016/01/in-a-huge- (1 more message)
21:12 mircea_popescu actually strike that, they are very aware.
21:13 mircea_popescu even ended up in some slashdotty-like thing w/e it was
21:13 mircea_popescu wired something
21:13 asciilifeform they got this 'studiously ignore' thing going on, tho
21:13 mircea_popescu hey, history is written by a dude Ira and his studious.
21:14 deedbot- [BitBet Bets Bets] 2.28600000 BTC on 'No' - AlphaGo will defeat Lee Sedol overall in March 2016 match - http://bitbet.us/bet/1249/alphago-will-defeat-lee-sedol-overall-in-march/#b78
21:14 mircea_popescu aok o.O
21:25 deedbot- [Trilema] Eulora auction, February the 28th - http://trilema.com/2016/eulora-auction-february-the-28th/
21:34 phf tinyscheme can't read strings longer then #define STRBUFFSIZE 256, hmm
21:34 mircea_popescu ffs.
21:34 mircea_popescu how does this make sense ?
21:42 asciilifeform the buffer has to be a certain length...
21:42 mircea_popescu and this is my problem because c ?
21:43 asciilifeform yes.
21:55 trinque <ben_vulpes> yo hey yo hey << looks like my bouncer took a crap while I was out for the weekend. sup!
21:59 mircea_popescu wb
~ 30 minutes ~
22:29 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82470 @ 0.00057402 = 47.3394 BTC [+] {3}
22:31 trinque http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1411650 << this is because that's not a sig for buildroot; it's an armored signed copy of buildroot's hash
22:31 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 02:30:15; assbot: Logged on 20-02-2016 20:41:35; ben_vulpes: mod6: i am *still* getting this with build-bitcoin-v99995.sh: gpg: WARNING: not a detached signature; file 'buildroot-2015.05.tar.gz' was NOT verified!
22:31 mod6 trinque: wb
22:32 mod6 yah. i realized that lastnight. i think it also has to do with that i was using a derp version of gnupg too
22:32 trinque mod6: good evening, and cool
22:32 mod6 anyway, not sure how i ever mixed that up.
22:33 mod6 anyway, i the latest, we just pulled that out for the time being.
22:38 danielpbarron ;; later tell phf http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=21-02-2016#1412717 << There's one on Fulton Street with great food
22:38 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 22:49:39; phf: aah, i'll ask him when he's around, but that's west coast. they have great saunas there
22:38 gribble The operation succeeded.
22:49 mircea_popescu !up JuliaTourianski_
22:49 JuliaTourianski_ it's been a while
22:49 mircea_popescu how goes ?
22:50 mircea_popescu hey, were you running a russian bath thing or am i completely delusional ?
22:50 JuliaTourianski_ my headache just disappeared. magical!
22:50 JuliaTourianski_ I am still running one
22:50 mircea_popescu where was it ?
22:50 JuliaTourianski_ will be running 2 in the forseeable future
22:51 JuliaTourianski_ Canada
22:51 mircea_popescu yes but which side of the pancake.
22:51 JuliaTourianski_ E
22:52 mircea_popescu so... how about you pay the fine establishment a visit phf ?
22:52 JuliaTourianski_ my mother got a call the other day with some guy asking her if we have glory holes. she had no idea what he meant.
22:52 mircea_popescu lol.
22:53 JuliaTourianski_ phf?
22:53 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=21-02-2016#1412171
22:53 assbot Logged on 21-02-2016 19:08:14; phf: as soon as i can move again, i'm going to make it to russian&turkish baths in nyc. they don't really do saunas on the east coast, but that baths place is awesome
22:54 JuliaTourianski_ I like the fulton st bathhouse in nyc (amazing food), and this one http://www.russianturkishbaths.com/ nice atmosphere, oldschool family run
22:54 assbot AMAZING COMPANY!
22:54 assbot 010813rtbh ... ( http://bit.ly/1VymXp8 )
22:54 JuliaTourianski_ they gave me a discount cuz I'm a fellow owner
22:55 mircea_popescu eh girls get discounts everywhere nudity's even vaguely involved.
22:55 JuliaTourianski_ not true. the unisex nude on in san fran gave me no discount
22:56 mircea_popescu wrong kinda girl. shoulda been gay.
22:56 JuliaTourianski_ all girls are gay
22:56 JuliaTourianski_ if they so choose
22:56 mircea_popescu alright, i give, i got nothing.
22:56 phf of course, i'm always interested in new sauna places
22:57 JuliaTourianski_ ur euro born right
22:57 phf yes, russian
22:57 JuliaTourianski_ Ive been to bathhouses all over
22:58 phf i prefer contrast baths, hot bath, cold plunge, but yeah i've been to all kinds
22:59 JuliaTourianski_ in turkey, we were walking round hoping to go to a hamam the next day..when we saw steam rising from one of the buildings...we inquired to find the oldest haman of turkey! it was amazing. they scrubbed me down so hard. and they giggled at my shyness.
22:59 assbot AMAZING COMPANY!
22:59 JuliaTourianski_ hammam*
23:00 mircea_popescu pretty cool.
23:00 phf is that the one that's few blocks away from hagia sophia?
23:01 JuliaTourianski_ couldnt tell u
23:01 mircea_popescu should be.
23:02 JuliaTourianski_ the general rule is...the more expensive a bathhouse is, the less authentic cuz only white tourists would pay that much to bathe...
23:02 mircea_popescu JuliaTourianski_ did you get that gaming system made ?
23:03 JuliaTourianski_ yes. waiting for new monitor
23:03 JuliaTourianski_ but purse.io has not filled my order for days...
23:03 mircea_popescu the girl/boy ratio in eulora is starting to skew the wrong way!
23:03 phf i've noticed that, there's a place right between the sophia and blue mosque, that's all turist.
23:04 JuliaTourianski_ so why is eulora different than minecraft
23:04 mircea_popescu minecraft just creates shit out of thin air neh ?
23:05 JuliaTourianski_ am i masculine cuz i was addicted to minecraft or feminine because i built a kitchen
23:05 mircea_popescu you're gay for caring!
23:05 JuliaTourianski_ so ghay
23:05 danielpbarron minecraft is way more focused on sandboxing
23:06 mircea_popescu danielpbarron i never played it, but is it inflationary ?
23:06 danielpbarron very
23:06 JuliaTourianski_ do i have to give mp money to have fun in eulora
23:06 mircea_popescu well then that's the difference.
23:06 mircea_popescu JuliaTourianski_ nah atm noobs are making a pretty penny mining.
23:07 JuliaTourianski_ ill give it a shot once my monitor happens
23:07 danielpbarron i used to play on a hardcore pvp server that had a decent economy (for minecraft) and they would have to periodically reset the whole world
23:07 mircea_popescu weren't ppls bitching that purse.io went scam or was that a different thing
23:07 mircea_popescu danielpbarron that's just fucking ridoinculous.
23:07 JuliaTourianski_ not yet
23:09 phf danielpbarron: wait, fullton street in nyc?
23:09 danielpbarron ya
23:09 phf interesting, i've not been to that one
23:10 JuliaTourianski_ great food
23:11 danielpbarron i pulled off some pretty cool raids on that minecraft server; the guy who made it coded this thing you could build out of expensive parts that would like you track down where people were if they stood in one place too long (usually building their big stupid elaborate base)
23:11 mircea_popescu butthurt ensues ?
23:11 danielpbarron got to the point i built a tracker so big i could scan the whole map using binary substitution, and just collected and sold coordinates to other people
23:11 mircea_popescu lol
23:11 phf the one on second ave has pretty good food, but it's really just one guy cooking it. this wallstreetspa place seems like they might have a cook
23:14 JuliaTourianski_ mircea_popescu what do u think of physicals
23:14 mircea_popescu what are those ?
23:15 JuliaTourianski_ physical bitcoin
23:15 mircea_popescu i never cared, myself. nubbins` is the resident expert really.
23:16 JuliaTourianski_ http://www.maxfield.me/blog/
23:16 assbot Blog « Photography, Illustration & Creative Retouching – Portfolio of Maxfield Mellenbruch ... ( http://bit.ly/1SLP2LN )
23:19 mircea_popescu lol i didn't know you were an artist.
23:19 mircea_popescu !rated JuliaTourianski_
23:19 assbot You rated user JuliaTourianski_ on 22-Sep-2014, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: Manages the beer for a family owned Russian bathouse with handmage sausages in Mississauga..
23:19 mircea_popescu ha. voice yourself wouldja.
23:20 danielpbarron the thing with "load your own key" physicals is it defeats at least some of the purpose
23:20 ben_vulpes (hi trinque!)
23:20 danielpbarron although i'm with nubbins` on the whole gpg chain of ownership method
23:21 danielpbarron bitcoin can never exist strictly as a physical token; there needs to be some sort of bank-like entity to put a name on it
23:22 asciilifeform to the extent 'physical coin' is a mechanism for storing actual coin, vs mere decoration, it is a Bad Idea.
23:22 mircea_popescu seems to me rather obvious these are intended as decorative accessories.
23:22 mircea_popescu i can see what the girls are trying to do. it's nb.
23:22 phf seems like it would appeal to the same "commemorative" crowd as in fiat
23:23 mircea_popescu phf no, it's the porsche for a new generation. tho i'm unsure whether anyone here understands or cares to think about what those things ~are~.
↖
23:23 ben_vulpes v. cool, phf.
23:24 ben_vulpes (swank, that is)
23:24 ben_vulpes (swanky, one might say)
23:25 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: waiwut
23:25 mircea_popescu better questions!
23:25 asciilifeform what they are
23:25 asciilifeform .
23:26 mircea_popescu lol ?
23:26 asciilifeform 'veblen good' ?
23:30 mircea_popescu not exactly\
23:30 mircea_popescu let's go at it this way : ever seen how much bums value cell phones ?
23:31 asciilifeform have seen the abstract fact of bum with phone, yes
23:34 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30750 @ 0.00057405 = 17.652 BTC [+]
23:36 punkman danielpbarron: bitcoin can never exist strictly as a physical token; there needs to be some sort of bank-like entity to put a name on it << the keys are always stored on physical tokens. unless you have a brainwallet (and the mind-reading machine has not been invented yet).
23:37 ben_vulpes this is an implementation detail, punkman
23:38 danielpbarron yeah but you don't usually pass around private keys like bank notes
23:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform but the value of the phone for the bum is unrelated to its utility.
23:39 mircea_popescu for one thing - who the fuck is he going to call ? for the other - how is he going to even get it to work ? for yet another, it matters not so much if the thing even works in the first place.
23:39 mircea_popescu now - why is this ?
23:39 asciilifeform i can see it.
23:40 danielpbarron it sorta works with cacasius coins -- the ones that ~he~ loaded. But if each identical looking token is supposed to be loaded by a different entity, there can be no illusion of fungibility between them
23:41 mircea_popescu note that i picked the bum specifically. for derps in "secure neighbourhoods", showing off to the neighbour is arguably a +ev move. who knows, maybe neighbour's daughter comes to do your house work in the nude or something. as faint as it may be - you're not going to get in fucking trouble for being an asshole. not so for bum. for bum, veblen goods are suicide goods.
23:41 mircea_popescu so then what gives ?
23:44 asciilifeform he puts on the play for himself?
23:45 asciilifeform 'i'm still someone'
23:45 mircea_popescu look at "european cars", they've been selling the same damned thing for 30 years now. you ever watch one of their ads ?
23:45 mircea_popescu there's a naked woman in a fur and a shot of some shiny cogs working together.
23:45 mircea_popescu that's all it's been throughout.
23:45 mircea_popescu and they're not pitching to people who could buy the damned cars, but to twentysomething derps in college.
23:46 mircea_popescu fact of the matter is, when it comes to technology we're all bums. nobody can make a fucking car he'd want to drive.
↖
23:46 asciilifeform so that they buy as soon as they are credit-enabled?
23:46 mircea_popescu and this is EXACTLY what elegance is. no fucking farmer in the midwest, building an empire and about to kick the fuherer's teeth in can POSSIBLY be elegant.
23:46 mircea_popescu elegance is specifically the scent of early putrefaction.
23:47 mircea_popescu hence new york was elegant in 1920, by the time it was just starting to no longer matter,
23:47 mircea_popescu not in 1820 when it was kicking pensylvania's teeth in.
23:47 mircea_popescu look at the item in question, it's faintly cog-like, and mysteriously made of parts bla bla. same exact play, for same exact reason.
23:48 mircea_popescu all they need is some sluts in furs smoking out of hookas or some shit.
23:51 mircea_popescu !up JuliaTourianski_
23:51 mircea_popescu didja pm it !up ?
23:51 JuliaTourianski_ for elegance to exist it needs elegant people
23:52 mircea_popescu what's that, women that never queef and dudes that don't go bald ?
23:53 phf andy warhol's gay entourage
23:53 JuliaTourianski_ regarding the kialaras... they're pretty pieces of art (which by wilde's definition is valuable in it of itself) plus they have the btc behind them, so they're an investment.
23:53 mircea_popescu see ? she gets it.
23:54 mircea_popescu they're valuable in themselves plus they make a good investment. furs ftw.
23:54 mircea_popescu anyone seen Les Veinards btw ?
23:54 JuliaTourianski_ wats that
23:55 mircea_popescu splendid bit in there, right in the final sketch, de funes is this breton dude. "ils m'ont liquide!"
23:59 JuliaTourianski_ im writing a post called "It's not that there's no jobs, it's that your standards are too high. "
23:59 punkman I like the Kialara coins, certainly different than all the other crap coins. but why would I buy one signed by Ricky Allman or JuliaTourianski? did you do the art on the back side?
23:59 JuliaTourianski_ yes
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