Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2022-07-26 | 2022-07-28 → ↓
11:04 awt $ticker btc usd
11:04 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $21478.2
~ 1 hours 28 minutes ~
12:33 phf sorry for noise, test
12:34 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-25#1010411 << quod licet iovi, non licet bovi
12:34 bitbot Logged on 2022-07-25 23:35:40 crtdaydreams[jonsykkel|awt]: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-25#1010637 << when mentioned earlier, flamed
12:34 dulapbot Logged on 2022-07-25 22:29:37 phf[asciilifeform]: why not torrent
12:34 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-03-21 crtdaydreams: re DHT/PEST: perhapse we could utilize some form of bittorrent while wrapping i.e. a tracker in pest?
12:34 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-03-21 signpost: time to stop trying to satisfy your urges by making noise, and read *deeply* the pest spec, all of loper-os, and come back with questions or not at all.
12:36 phf asciilifeform, is the bot quoting intentional, or that's just a bug? i can see the argument for both
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12:36 phf but i can also see future where bot quoting becomes superflous, since can have inbandism quoting by hash, where user client does the referencing
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12:38 phf but more to that torrent point, possibly flamed because suggestion sounded like “lets bolt a 10000 line torrent codebase to pest”, where's in my case asciilifeform correctly intuited that suggestion is “wai not use some reduced protocol similar to torrent, reduced to its essentials of chunking and explicit requests b
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12:38 phf y chunk hashes, with whatever else might be useful in torrent protocol, that i'm not aware of yet”
12:42 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-26#1010433 << ironclad, historically ironclad not being all there is the result of my investigations, so i'm not too worried
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12:42 bitbot Logged on 2022-07-26 07:00:13 crtdaydreams[jonsykkel|awt|signpost]: phf: what are you using for crypto might I ask? did you write your own impl. of serpent or are you using ironclad? or some other lib unbeknownst to me
12:43 phf besides serpent one would also need to write sha512, sha256 and hmac. i figured eventually someone might do such a thing, and then we can all drop in replace. otherwise ironclad is good enough™
12:45 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-07-27#1112358 << quintessential quote
12:45 bitbot (asciilifeform) 2022-07-27 gregorynyssa: I have read many books and papers regarding the LISP languages without really using them.
12:45 signpost right, with phf the default assumption is not that he's doing "the x of y" superficial thinking.
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12:58 phf ty signpost
12:58 phf further re ironclad, i'll probably end up extracting relevant bits sooner rather than later, because i want to see if i can get pest going on a genera :D
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~ 25 minutes ~
13:24 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-27#1010473 << bug. billymg actually fixed in his, asciilifeform simply not eaten that patch yet
13:24 bitbot Logged on 2022-07-27 12:36:16 phf[awt]: asciilifeform, is the bot quoting intentional, or that's just a bug? i can see the argument for both
13:25 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-27#1010474 << indeed. the entire irc-flavoured logger thing is similarly superfluous ( logotron oughta display straight from pest db. then order preserved, can fill in missing, etc )
13:25 bitbot Logged on 2022-07-27 12:36:34 phf[awt]: but i can also see future where bot quoting becomes superflous, since can have inbandism quoting by hash, where user client does the referencing
13:26 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-27#1010475 << with the caveat that as asciilifeform understands, the result won't be all that similar to traditional bt ( e.g. lubyism instead of deterministic chunks; l1 peers rather than swarm of randos; what's left.. )
13:26 bitbot Logged on 2022-07-27 12:38:47 phf[awt]: but more to that torrent point, possibly flamed because suggestion sounded like “lets bolt a 10000 line torrent codebase to pest”, where's in my case asciilifeform correctly intuited that suggestion is “wai not use some reduced protocol similar to torrent, reduced to its essentials of chunking and explicit requests b
13:26 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-27#1010477 << asciilifeform distinctly recalls. thing is rather minimal iirc
13:26 bitbot Logged on 2022-07-27 12:42:36 phf[awt]: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-26#1010433 << ironclad, historically ironclad not being all there is the result of my investigations, so i'm not too worried
13:27 asciilifeform fortunately for pestronics need only serpent (which ultra-simple to port from the ada example), sha256 (exists) , and hmac384 (presumably phf already baked one, or discovered where to crib)
13:29 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-27#1010482 << normally asciilifeform associates this w/ young folx, but then found that some continue this kinda 'wandering' right into old age. is, arguably, a function of whether fella eventually 'dares to do sumthing', i.e. nontrivial project where 'could fail', or simply continues 'f
13:29 bitbot Logged on 2022-07-27 12:45:40 signpost: right, with phf the default assumption is not that he's doing "the x of y" superficial thinking.
13:30 asciilifeform nudging sumbody into 'nontrivial project' prolly aint possible, the impetus has to come from inside one's head (per e.g. the norsemen's concept of 'the spirit of loki, which leads men to stand up and recite poetry'(tm))
13:31 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-27#1010484 << wainot, hypothetically on any box where can send/recv ethernet frames, could pest (if at 'toy' performance)
13:31 bitbot Logged on 2022-07-27 12:58:55 phf[awt]: further re ironclad, i'll probably end up extracting relevant bits sooner rather than later, because i want to see if i can get pest going on a genera :D
13:33 asciilifeform further re gregorynyssa -- iirc he went to write a pestron (in java? cobol? or what was it) -- so maybe in fact moving on from 'read many boox!'(tm) to action
~ 15 minutes ~
13:49 phf asciilifeform, i have no idea if the man does things, i thought that particular quote was a little gem. refering to language as “LISP”, read many papers /and books/ not written any. if we had an eqv of bashorg, ought to put the quote there
~ 33 minutes ~
14:22 * asciilifeform encountered over9000 folx like that, at one time arguably was it (at 15yo..)
~ 54 minutes ~
15:16 phf Но не думайте, однако, после этого, чтоб автор этой книги имел когда-нибудь гордую мечту сделаться исправителем людских пороков. Боже его избави от такого невежества! Ему просто
15:16 phf было весело рисовать современного человека, каким он его понимает, и к его и вашему несчастью, слишком часто встречал. Будет и того, что болезнь указана, а как ее излечить — это у
15:17 phf ж бог знает!
15:19 phf odd, bitdash has complete, 3-part message, where nsa logs gave up after two
15:19 asciilifeform phf: loox like last msg 'in purgatory' there
15:20 asciilifeform observe, nao will 'lag' by 1, for a spell
15:20 phf yah
15:20 phf i wonder if my hashes are actually invalid. i've switched from octet vectors to bignum for hashes, and might've messed up the code somewhere…
15:20 asciilifeform iirc this is simply because hearsay eviction (other than by timeout) dun actually work, currently, in blatta
15:21 asciilifeform phf: this is in fact possible, and not only in yours, potentially also in blatta, lol. may account for above
15:21 asciilifeform atm there is no convenient marker of 'this msg's ancestor in fact never showed' in the ui
15:22 asciilifeform this kinda thing will only show up as a 'msg sits in limbo until hearsay timeout'
15:27 phf once i have a bit of free time again, i'm going to add more elaborate packet processing, which will potentially reveal any kind of misunderstandings about selfchains and hearsay and such
15:28 asciilifeform neato
15:28 * asciilifeform catastrophically short on usable freetime atm sadly
15:28 phf at the moment i simply vector-push-extend all broadcast packets to a giant array :D
15:28 phf so it's more like there's not any kind of pest compliance
15:29 phf work™©
15:29 phf oh ffs
15:29 phf works™©
~ 28 minutes ~
15:57 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-27#1112378 << that's factually and historically incorrect, but then what should i expect make a mistake, double down. the transition from all uppercase started to happen sometime at the end of 70s.
15:57 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-07-27 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-27#1010729 << the use of "Lisp" (uppercase L, lowercase "isp") to refer to CL, Scheme, etc. collectively is a "Paul Grahamism."
15:59 phf from my reading of relevant papers, you start seeing e.g. MACLISP refered to as MacLisp or Maclisp around 79, although in private correspondce even earlier
16:01 phf my '84 edition of lisp machine manual refers to various lisps as "Common Lisp" "Zetalisp" "Maclisp" and in general "Lisp"
16:04 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-27#1112380 << no shit, but you're making an idiosyncratic semiotic argument then that the lisp family of languages ought to be referred to as LISP, but again that's not historically accurate. there was a distinct transition from LISP to Lisp _in the 80s_
16:04 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-07-27 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2022-07-27#1010753 << Maclisp/MacLisp was the name of a particular language, not the class of languages.
16:08 phf http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2022-07-27#1112384 << that's a peculiar historical revisionism, that says more about the speaker, than it does about the subject
16:08 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-07-27 gregorynyssa: the cult-following which developed around Paul Graham and Arc shot down the usage of LISP.
16:19 phf if you're being verisimilitude pedantic with your taxonomy, then you ought to be aware that the transition from LISP to Lisp happened as the scope of the ideas covered by lisp concept expanded beyond the initial. the use of acronym LISP tends to imply a focus on traditional lisp subjects like pure sexp asts, metacircular e
16:19 phf valuators, hand written small lisps that highlight the essential features. “Lisp” became more prevalent as the languages matured and diversified, and the subjects of exploration moved significantly beyond “cons cells” and “self modifying code”. the usage cemented not as a result of paul graham, but because in t
16:19 phf he early 2000s continued use of LISP acronym in public forums was an easy tell for the kind of superficial blowhards that are fascinated with some college level aspects of lisp, rather than have interest or ability to pursue practical lisp programming. by then /in papers/ Lisp all but dominated, where's college books and s
16:19 phf hitty introduction tutorials insisted on continued use of LISP acronym.
~ 25 minutes ~
16:44 * asciilifeform associates 'LISP' with dark age of folx sitting on teletypes where 'we only have 1 case, and would be blasphemous to write 'god', so better have 'GOD'' etc
16:49 phf i can kind of see the argument of using LISP to refer to a platonic idea of lisp, or perhaps when one wants to highlight the naive, old school evaluator approach. "we scripted our game with a LISP" can maybe imply that "it's a 100 lines of c, that i picked up from my college book" or similar
16:50 phf but gregorynyssa was clearly refering to what is called, with proper capitalization, “Lisp family of languages”
16:53 phf from chinual 8-JUN-84 “Common Lisp is a Lisp dialect designed to standardize all the various Lisp systems derived from Maclisp”
16:55 phf paip published in 92, “The dialect of Lisp known as Scheme is also gaining popularity […] Other dialects of Lisp such as Franz Lisp, MacLisp, InterLisp, ZetaLisp and Standard Lisp are now considered obsolete.”
16:58 asciilifeform phf: no shortage of these examples. nfi what gregorynyssa was reading, by all signs subsists on a diet of 1970s 'ai for trs-80' maculature, lol
17:03 phf i decided to check some of the books, that i thought would deviate from my point which are also within hand reach. chinual, "connection machine" by w.daniel hillis 1982, paip
17:04 phf quinnec's lisp in small pieces deals with lisp family, implementing core ideas of common lisp and scheme in scheme, he calls it "Lisp family" 1994
17:14 phf ooh, i found a hardcopy with LISP in it, it's the 1982 proceedings, conference on advanced research on vlsi, which has a paper "The SCHEME-81 Architecture -- System and Chip" which i couldn't find online. usage like “In the SCHEME dialect of LISP, procedures are lexically scoped (as in ALGOL-60).”
17:22 phf actually no it was because of "Data Path Generator" by shrobe (who worked on scheme-81 and later on ivory) which comes closest to gregorynyssa's particular usage: in one place “…such as Lisp interpreter of Scheme-81)” presumably refers to a Lisp Machine Lisp, but elsewhere “DPL is a LISP based symbolic layout langu
17:22 phf age…̦” refers to family.
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17:25 phf but actually pretty incosistent, elsewhere talks about “a Lisp expression” when talking about DPL conditions, but also “Daedalus is a novel graphics editor implemented on the MIT Lisp Machine, a powerful 32-bit personal computer, including […] direct support the LISP language”
17:26 phf that's 82 though
17:26 phf alright, enough of this nonsense
17:27 phf also i ran out of hardcopy lisp books
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~ 4 hours 12 minutes ~
21:40 phf http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-07-27#1112431 << escape to where remains a non-rhetorical question
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21:40 bitbot (asciilifeform) 2022-07-27 asciilifeform: signpost: asciilifeform often wonders if there in fact is a 'seekrit' exodus of 'surplus' males from usa into the 'free world'
21:42 phf most escapees i've met are doing пир во время чумы, remote work from georgia because cheap wines and even a popular electronic music venue
21:42 phf or similar
21:43 phf i'm yet to meet “escaped so we can build Rhodesia”, granted this might be a comment on me more than anything
~ 22 minutes ~
22:05 phf hmm, i wonder what's an archetypal “feast at the time of plague” in western tradition. it seems like established imagery, but i don't have a concise phrase for it in english
22:07 phf ^ https://mannysbookofshadows.files.wordpress.com/2020/04/nosferatu-plague-scene.jpg
~ 32 minutes ~
22:39 asciilifeform phf: poe's 'red death', perhaps
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22:41 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-27#1010549 << asciilifeform is at this pt convinced that 'where to feast during plague' is a matter of narrowly personal taste
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22:41 bitbot Logged on 2022-07-27 21:40:00 phf[awt]: http://logs.bitdash.io/asciilifeform/2022-07-27#1112431 << escape to where remains a non-rhetorical question
22:41 asciilifeform for some folx, conceivably, exactly where they happen to be atm is the place.
22:42 asciilifeform and that nobody's 'building rhodesia' (can't resist to question the brand, also, is like to ask 'wai nobody building the hindenburg' rather than 'why not dirigibles', lol)
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22:44 asciilifeform at the risk of pedantism, some folx have concrete personal problems that a coupla months of lang study + plane ticket might reliably solve.
22:44 asciilifeform BB was arguably 'poster child' for this
22:44 asciilifeform !q seen-anywhere BingoBoingo
22:44 dulapbot BingoBoingo last seen in #asciilifeform on 2022-02-28 12:49:43: In the past month US down ~19% versus Brasil's Real, 5.3% versus Peso Uruguay
22:44 asciilifeform (RIP?)
22:46 asciilifeform see e.g. recent thread re parts of eureich which allegedly have 0 tax on btc conversion, 0 'refugees', ~0 street chaos, etc
22:47 asciilifeform if you've a 'mains cable' which stretches there, and can somehow fix yerself up with the correct passport (so can ditch the usa one, supposing even burdened with one) then potentially very promising dest.
22:48 asciilifeform ( if you have usa passport, yer a 'pidor' in so far as eureich is concerned, re banking in particular. asciilifeform 100% confirms, went on ro expedition in '17 concretely for fact-finding re subj )
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22:49 asciilifeform thrd
22:49 bitbot (asciilifeform) 2022-07-17 asciilifeform: kakostan afaik currently most appealing (on paper) orcistan. that is, per asciilifeform's lights, given as can already read ~95% w/out dict & understand ~80
22:50 asciilifeform but again, muchly personal q, conceivably not errybody wants to live in a mountain backwater etc
22:51 asciilifeform some folx seem to give a damn re 'scenes', 'things to do', meatspace social life etc. as mp did ('buenos aires is shithole, no night life!11' etc)
22:52 asciilifeform asciilifeform otoh liked e.g. montevideo but ~not~ the fact that to get so much as a fucking power strip or bag of m3 screws there, had to smuggle it in personally
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22:52 asciilifeform 'like in mars colony'
22:54 asciilifeform some folx (e.g. asciilifeform) 'like languages'. others not, e.g. asciilifeform's anglo phriend who in slovenistan right nao but can't be arsed to get passport b/c 'oh noez lang exam'
22:56 asciilifeform some folx (e.g. phf) natural-born mars colonists, a-ok w/ terraforming desolate wasteland at own risk & expense.
22:56 asciilifeform hats off to these.
22:58 asciilifeform http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2022-07-27#1010548 << asciilifeform went through similar dig, lol, but with results so nearly identical to phf's that won't bother to post
22:58 bitbot Logged on 2022-07-27 17:27:59 phf[awt]: also i ran out of hardcopy lisp books
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