Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2022-06-19 | 2022-06-21 →
03:26 awt $ticker btc usd
03:26 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $19974.91
~ 12 hours 45 minutes ~
16:11 awt $ticker btc usd
16:11 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $20599.04
~ 16 minutes ~
16:27 asciilifeform helloworld
16:32 awt hello
16:32 awt pestbot: ping
16:32 pestbot pong
16:32 asciilifeform seems to have logged
16:32 asciilifeform still seeing the [asciilifeform|asciilifeform...] lolbug
16:33 awt yeah that's fucking annoying
16:33 asciilifeform ( almost certainly hearsay dupes are getting relayed from asciilifeform's station to dulapbot's )
16:33 billymg asciilifeform: regarding syncing of line indices between logotrons, what if we added a field containing the hash of speaker (minus hearsay), chan, timestamp, payload to the db?
16:34 asciilifeform oh and the 'perpetually 1 msg behind' thing again
16:34 awt pestbot: ping
16:34 pestbot pong
16:34 awt Pestbot up to date. Not sure what's going on there.
16:35 * asciilifeform also up to date on both sides
16:35 billymg backfilling that field would also fix the problem of ossasepia and lobbes logs getting out of sync with nsa logs
16:35 bitbot (asciilifeform) 2022-04-27 billymg: i wanted to include ossasepia links too, but out of sync
16:36 awt system times are close?
16:36 asciilifeform on both boxes within 5sec
16:38 asciilifeform current session's dbgbarf
16:39 asciilifeform ( the most obv. q is, wai does it getdata almost erry time ? )
16:41 awt asciilifeform: actually looking at the pestbot logs I'm seeing the exact same thing. Dunno how it responds instantly.
16:41 awt Not seeing it on my main station:
16:47 awt This is the missing message from the first GETDATA request: BROADCAST (asciilifeform) 2022-04-27 billymg: i wanted to include ossasepia links too, but out of sync 2 f6daf3650616b7a533c2c8e04fbcf926c84b6626ec3aab8585479dc7098c0ea9
16:48 awt ok ok hmm maybe has something to do with bounces?
16:49 awt the loggers are how many bounces apart?
16:49 awt the loggers and bots are most likely to be farthest apart
16:50 awt so log quotes aren't making it all the way to the other logger, and possibly poorly connected bots, such as pestbot.
16:52 * asciilifeform found that max_bounces was set to 3 on asciilifeform's station; lessee if changing to 5 does anyffin
16:53 asciilifeform ( per current spec, rec'd value is 5 )
16:53 awt aha default is currently 3
16:53 asciilifeform seems to have cured (or at least temporarily?) the 1-behind thing
16:54 asciilifeform lessee if cured bot echo
16:54 awt Will know next time bitbot quotes
16:54 asciilifeform
16:54 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-20 12:51:34 asciilifeform: lessee if cured bot echo
16:54 asciilifeform echoed on asciilifeform's station ^
16:54 awt Yeah I see it.
16:54 asciilifeform and no longer shits out getdata after erry msg
16:55 asciilifeform pestbot: ping
16:55 pestbot pong
16:55 asciilifeform ^ also seems to work as expected
16:55 asciilifeform ty awt
16:55 awt yw!
16:56 asciilifeform still not obv to asciilifeform why a bounce cut of 3 would cause erry msg by asciilifeform himself to get 1-behind
16:56 asciilifeform bounce dist from asciilifeform's station to dulapbot's is 1
16:56 awt possibly stuck in buffer while waiting for getdata caused by missing log quote.
16:56 asciilifeform oh hm
16:57 asciilifeform the getdata goes to asciilifeform's station tho, neh (where else)
16:57 asciilifeform which oughta answr ~immed
16:57 awt yes - but later messages are stuck in the queue nonetheless until their timestamp passes the expiration
16:57 asciilifeform awt: is it possible that current blatta somehow preserves bounce counts when answering a getdata ?
16:58 asciilifeform ( rather than issuing the correct one, which is always 1 , when answering a getdata )
16:58 asciilifeform err, 0
16:59 awt asciilifeform: bounce count is logged so we can check
16:59 awt it's the integer after the hash
17:00 asciilifeform in the paste, they look to be correct ( if asciilifeform is reading'em right )
17:01 asciilifeform hmm awt is there any mark to distinguish getdata responses in the log from other msgs ?
17:01 asciilifeform ( currently dun seem to be? )
17:02 awt asciilifeform: no.
17:02 asciilifeform aok
17:05 asciilifeform given what asciilifeform can see in the debug log, remains a puzzler wai a bounce cut of 3 on asciilifeform's station would cause the behaviour seen earlier in dulapbot's
17:05 asciilifeform ( where setting to 5 -- appears to cure )
17:05 asciilifeform esp. given that dulapbot's is still set to 3
17:06 awt Possibly blatta only checks the bounce count before rebroadcasting and not on receiving.
17:07 asciilifeform this is correct per current spec fwiw
17:07 * asciilifeform goes to look to make sure
17:07 asciilifeform hm nope, lol
17:08 asciilifeform 'station must reject messages which have experienced more than a preconfigured number of bounces'
17:08 * asciilifeform had fughoteen that he'd in fact remembered to properly specify this, lol
17:09 awt Yeah looks like there's not bounce check on reception in blatta.
17:10 asciilifeform bounce path from pestbot to dulapbot is still 3 tho, no ? (pestbot -> billymg -> asciilifeform -> dulapbot)
17:10 asciilifeform so still can't figure out why a cut of 3 would've caused a loss
17:11 awt Let's test again:
17:11 bitbot Logged on 2022-06-20 17:10:56 asciilifeform: so still can't figure out why a cut of 3 would've caused a loss
17:12 asciilifeform should set on asciilifeform's station to 3 again ?
17:12 asciilifeform (atm is 5)
17:12 awt No GETDATA from pestbot.
17:12 asciilifeform indeed no getdata's issued on its end since set to 5
17:12 asciilifeform (since asciilifeform's station, that is, set to bounce cut 5)
17:13 asciilifeform i'ma set it to 3 again, lessee if same as prior
17:13 asciilifeform done
17:13 asciilifeform
17:13 bitbot Logged on 2022-06-20 17:10:56 asciilifeform: so still can't figure out why a cut of 3 would've caused a loss
17:13 asciilifeform hmm
17:14 asciilifeform made absolutely no diff
17:14 asciilifeform pestbot: ping
17:14 pestbot pong
17:14 asciilifeform still nope!
17:15 asciilifeform ( the failure isn't reproducible by setting asciilifeform's station back to bounce cut 3 )
17:15 awt Maybe if you can find that original log quote that started it off, it might have come via a longer route
17:15 asciilifeform helloworld
17:15 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-20 12:11:51 busybot[asciilifeform]: Current BTC price in USD: $20599.04
17:15 asciilifeform nope
17:16 awt I have the bounce count logged as 2 for the first quote this morning.
17:16 asciilifeform no getdataism at all
17:16 asciilifeform aa there we go
17:17 asciilifeform 1behind again
17:17 asciilifeform
17:18 asciilifeform helloworld
17:18 asciilifeform helloworld2
17:18 asciilifeform helloworld3
17:18 asciilifeform
17:18 asciilifeform nao let's back to 5...
17:18 awt pestbot also sending GETDATAs
17:19 asciilifeform helloworld1a
17:19 asciilifeform helloworld1b
17:19 asciilifeform helloworld1c
17:19 awt You'll need to wait for the buffer to dump
17:19 asciilifeform a
17:19 asciilifeform
17:20 asciilifeform (still 1 behind atm)
17:20 awt order_buffer_check_seconds defaults to 180
17:21 asciilifeform hmm
17:21 awt order_buffer_expiration_seconds defaults to 120
17:23 asciilifeform hm still 1behind
17:24 asciilifeform
17:24 awt << there are way to many GETDATA responses here
17:25 asciilifeform loox similar to dulapbot's, but the latter's has no 'out of order' marks
17:26 awt might need to wait two cycles for the buffer to completely clear and write everything to the long buffer.
17:26 asciilifeform ok
17:29 asciilifeform hm seems to have worked
17:30 awt shot
17:30 bitbot Logged on 2022-06-20 17:29:41 asciilifeform: hm seems to have worked
17:30 awt chaser
17:30 asciilifeform still synced
17:34 awt pestbot had to do a GETDATA when it got 'chaser'
17:34 asciilifeform hm interesting
17:37 awt Which is actually really weird because I do see the log quote prior to the initial receipt of 'chaser' in the pestbot station log.
17:37 asciilifeform awt: seems as if could be a bug triggered by reordered packet arrival
17:43 awt Could be a netchain problem.
17:47 asciilifeform awt: easily, but not yet obv. how, from the debug barf ( all the visible bounce paths were <= 3 long )
17:48 awt yeah I don't think it's the bounce count
17:51 awt Issue seems to arise for stations who speak immediately after a log quote
17:52 asciilifeform hmm, awt , what if effect from netchain 'fork' (entirely permitted situation, but is it handled correctly in blatta?)
17:52 asciilifeform i.e. 2 msgs with shared netchain parent
17:54 awt hmmm
17:56 asciilifeform seems possible: speaker 'a' speaks, and he saw msg 'm', and at ~same time 'b' speaks, but he not seen it yet. 'b' ends up issuing a getdata and embargoing m.
17:56 asciilifeform err, embargoing a's msg
18:00 awt Yes
18:02 * asciilifeform had a thought recently, that just about all of the gnarly embargo buffer logic in pest protocol is only req'd because irc frontend is a 'teletype', i.e. immutable
18:02 asciilifeform if were mutable (a la heathen chats) would not need to embargo, in principle
18:02 asciilifeform simply, we aint there just yet.
18:03 awt what would be an example of mutation?
18:09 asciilifeform awt: well, for starters, all replays; the receipt of any out-of-netchain-order msg; the eviction of a hearsay by an immediate
18:10 asciilifeform ... and messages with absent chain predecessor (net or self) could, in 'mutational' pestron, be displayed immed, rather than buffered
18:10 asciilifeform naturally this would require a custom gui thing, in place of irc teletype, tho.
18:11 awt ah ok gotcha
18:11 asciilifeform ( and a quite different interface for bots, somehow )
18:11 asciilifeform ahaha lol getdataism again
18:11 asciilifeform triggered, evidently, but asciilifeform speaking 'similt' with awt
18:11 asciilifeform *by
18:12 asciilifeform loox like we have a reasonable repro for the bug, lol
18:12 awt indeed
18:12 awt this is something I never tested
18:12 asciilifeform *simult
18:13 asciilifeform also loox as if asciilifeform's station aint answering dulapbot's getdata's most of the time
18:14 asciilifeform illustr.
18:15 asciilifeform and nao 3+ msgs 'behind'
18:15 awt yeah they're likely in the order buffer
18:17 awt You can decrease the interval on the bot station to dump 'em out faster for a temporary fix
18:17 asciilifeform right
18:18 asciilifeform ( high on asciilifeform's wishlist is some means for turning knobs on a bot station w/out disconnecting the bot; but 'can't have errything at 1ce' )
18:20 * asciilifeform current thought : possibly when 'master' mode implemented, bot can take pest cmds from master via direct msg
18:27 awt That would be nice. Wouldn't need another interface, like the thought I just had which is the ability to periodically reload the config from a config file that could be edited.
18:28 asciilifeform that'd be useful, so long as config includes literally all knobbable state
18:28 asciilifeform ( which would probably be a bitch to keep in sync with console-changed knob settings )
18:29 asciilifeform imho 'take cmds from master' would be the Right Thing for 'headless' stations
18:32 awt yep
18:34 asciilifeform awt: theoretically could still operate a pestron via irc frontend, but perhaps the Right Thing would be for the buffer logic to live in a separate glue (given as irc offers no way to represent 'changing the past')
18:34 asciilifeform ... whereas pestron per se could be substantially less 'stateful' than currently
18:36 asciilifeform (conceivably, the hearsay buffer could stay, given as hearsay eviction typically takes place within ~1s, packets are ~never delayed by moar than fraction of a second)
18:37 asciilifeform the [file:///home/stas/pest/FA/b/pest_spec/pest.html#412-order-buffer]['order buffer'] otoh would be superfluous in a 'mutable' pestron.
18:37 asciilifeform grr
18:38 asciilifeform ... the 'order buffer' otoh would be superfluous in a 'mutable' pestron.
18:38 awt that would be really nice
18:39 awt Could create a relatively simple curses app for display
18:39 asciilifeform ( atm order buffer dun add to the 'l2+ spam resistance' of a station at all, cuz contents get flushed to console anyway even if no answer to getdata is received... )
18:40 asciilifeform awt: asciilifeform in particular historically not relishes console irc clients (tho using one atm for pestnet) given as they break cut&paste horridly
18:40 asciilifeform (inserting spurious line endings)
18:41 * asciilifeform also on most machines hasn't a shell which supports utfism
18:42 signpost would be nice if one's pest station provided a sane interface to which w/e UI can be affixed.
18:42 signpost IRC client as UI comes with all sorts of baggage, but the client and server distinctions are still useful.
18:42 asciilifeform signpost: indeed. but in 'mutable' scheme contemplated above, would have to be sumthing other than irc
18:42 asciilifeform afaik there aint any off-shelf substitute
18:43 asciilifeform ( nor do any, afaik, off-shelf chat clients , support concept of a mutable log )
18:43 signpost nah, and this is the proper time to reevaluate, when temporary measure (IRC UI) threatens to backflow into the design.
18:44 asciilifeform ugh moar getdataism for ancient msgs despite having supposedly synced 2d ago on dulapbot
18:44 * signpost just emphasizes that blatta growing a ncurses UI directly would be inferior to blatta providing a local API interface with which to pestulate.
18:45 signpost allows both the ncurses UI and bots to interact with the same station.
18:45 asciilifeform signpost: imho entirely reasonable to separate 'skin' and pestron. simply must remind that there aint atm anyfffin in the way of a suitable 'skin', nor would be particularly simple to bake outta existing chatrons afaik
18:46 signpost nope, 100% agreed.
18:46 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-20 14:39:49 signpost[asciilifeform]: oh, they probably have a page-layout: pls-no-page-numbers-plspls; and so on.
18:46 asciilifeform << this is horrendous and, observe, awt , our logs are again outta sync, despite asciilifeform having given the dulapbot station ample time to sync
18:46 asciilifeform (and by all indications this morning was 100% synced)
18:46 awt asciilifeform: perhaps signpost's message had an old selfchain/netchain.
18:47 asciilifeform possibly, tho doesn't explain why triggered massive cascade of getdata's from dulapbot (which supposedly 'had errything')
18:47 awt in anycase somehow not everything is getting synced to the bot station initially.
18:47 dulapbot Logged on 2022-06-20 14:39:49 signpost[asciilifeform]: oh, they probably have a page-layout: pls-no-page-numbers-plspls; and so on.
18:48 asciilifeform << what these oddities look like on dulapbot end
18:48 signpost dulapbot is just trying to trigger me with rubbing CSS in my face.
18:48 signpost it wont work; I can't even feel it anymore.
18:48 asciilifeform lol
18:48 awt Same GETDATA barrage happening on the pestbot station.
18:48 asciilifeform ^ from above, can clearly see that asciilifeform's station is relaying obvious dupes to dulapbot's
18:49 * asciilifeform resigns to fact of having to zap the #p log on dulap again at some pt, after bug fixed. cuz atm it's again fulla oldrubbish
18:50 awt Seems like netchain handling is bad, since on a new station, some or all messages from a handle don't start syncing until they speak.
18:50 asciilifeform this is why prod
18:51 asciilifeform imho a logotron where gibblets month+ old can randomly appear in the midst of conversation aint of much use (not to mention will insta-desync from e.g. billymg's)
18:52 asciilifeform the whole 'teletype' paradigm is, as signpost points out, leaking into pestronics to much annoyance
18:53 asciilifeform possibly billymg's logger worx correctly because >1 peer. or because had ~100% uptime for ~whole duration of pestnet to date. nfi which. but new stations oughta work even if with 1-peer link , lol
18:54 awt yeah I'm going to have to run some specific tests to figure out what's going on. No idea rn.
18:54 asciilifeform ty awt
18:54 awt np
18:55 * asciilifeform must bbl
18:57 * asciilifeform will leave dulapbot and its station running, possibly can help in awt's debugging. but recs folx not to rely on dulapbot's #p log for any other purpose
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