Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2015-01-05 | 2015-01-07 → ↓
00:05 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17250 @ 0.00063731 = 10.9936 BTC [+]
00:09 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28900 @ 0.00066266 = 19.1509 BTC [+] {2}
00:11 mircea_popescu o look, nubsy
00:11 mircea_popescu finally found the internet end of the cable ?
00:15 mircea_popescu o look, another one lol.
00:21 mircea_popescu neways, enough excitement for one night. laters!
00:27 punkman asciilifeform: not everyone can afford golden toilet, but anyone can have a throne with ipv6. << relevant http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2014/31c3_-_6370_-_en_-_saal_g_-_201412281900_-_internet_of_toilets_-_tbsprs.html#video
00:27 assbot C3TV -Internet of toilets ... ( http://bit.ly/1HD7KNm )
00:37 asciilifeform quotes the dollar officially at 12 bolivars. meanwhile, black rate is ~17 << mega-lol!! >> at one point, iirc, 'vanity' exchange rate of soviet ruble was 12 per usd.
00:38 asciilifeform (yes, people found ways to 'milk' it.)
00:39 asciilifeform https://books.google.com/books?id=Ut_0AgAAQBAJ&lpg=PA44&ots=uzdXPijFi9&dq=ruble%20vanity%20exchange%20rate&pg=PA44#v=onepage&q=ruble%20vanity%20exchange%20rate&f=false << herr orlov's recollections
00:39 assbot The Five Stages of Collapse: Survivors' Toolkit - Dmitry Orlov - Google Books ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMOThs )
00:42 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16487 @ 0.00066355 = 10.9399 BTC [+]
00:44 punkman http://www.routercheck.com/2014/08/14/major-problems-tr-069/ http://media.ccc.de/browse/congress/2014/31c3_-_6166_-_en_-_saal_6_-_201412282145_-_too_many_cooks_-_exploiting_the_internet-of-tr-069-things_-_lior_oppenheim_-_shahar_tal.html
00:44 assbot Major Problems with TR-069 - RouterCheck ... ( http://bit.ly/1HDc5QC )
00:44 assbot C3TV -Too Many Cooks - Exploiting the Internet-of-TR-069-Things ... ( http://bit.ly/1HDc671 )
00:44 punkman so where do I get real router again?
00:45 punkman or rather PCI dsl modem
00:45 asciilifeform 'openwrt' etc, on hardware of reasonable vintage
00:46 asciilifeform build - personally.
00:47 asciilifeform (this gets you over the arguably low bar of having the router be no more exploitable than the machine(s) it is connected to...)
00:47 punkman as in old router/modem thingy?
00:48 asciilifeform as in something that doesn't have a multitude of undocumented internal sub-cpu cores running fuck knows what
00:48 asciilifeform (see earlier 'arm' threads)
00:52 asciilifeform must remind readers that your machines are as 'real' - or unreal - as you are.
00:59 asciilifeform would you buy an x86 pc box and use it with the factory-installed softs? no? then why would you do this with router ?
~ 29 minutes ~
01:29 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26406 @ 0.00066355 = 17.5217 BTC [+]
01:30 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4535 @ 0.00065246 = 2.9589 BTC [-] {2}
01:37 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29515 @ 0.00066764 = 19.7054 BTC [+] {2}
01:50 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12467 @ 0.00066934 = 8.3447 BTC [+]
01:56 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8650 @ 0.00067046 = 5.7995 BTC [+]
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02:14 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10733 @ 0.00066982 = 7.1892 BTC [-]
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02:39 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19700 @ 0.00063473 = 12.5042 BTC [-] {2}
02:48 Bet created: "Light Sweet Crude Oil (WTI) to drop under $40 before Mar 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1096/
02:48 Bet placed: 1 BTC for Yes on "Light Sweet Crude Oil (WTI) to drop under $40 before Mar 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1096/ Odds: 96(Y):4(N) by coin, 96(Y):4(N) by weight. Total bet: 1.12 BTC. Current weight: 99,703.
02:50 cazalla BitBet.us - Rejected - that feeling of failure :\
02:52 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11700 @ 0.00062865 = 7.3552 BTC [-]
02:56 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23000 @ 0.00062519 = 14.3794 BTC [-]
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03:22 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8006 @ 0.00062865 = 5.033 BTC [+]
03:24 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19100 @ 0.00062892 = 12.0124 BTC [+] {2}
03:34 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14244 @ 0.00062903 = 8.9599 BTC [+]
~ 20 minutes ~
03:54 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22900 @ 0.0006405 = 14.6675 BTC [+] {2}
04:06 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8906 @ 0.00063521 = 5.6572 BTC [-]
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04:31 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3350 @ 0.00062969 = 2.1095 BTC [-]
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04:48 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14150 @ 0.00062519 = 8.8464 BTC [-]
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05:14 cazalla woohoo, go to shops, find an intact tower on side of road otw back
05:15 cazalla "property of IBM Australia Credit Limited"
~ 34 minutes ~
05:49 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14700 @ 0.00062687 = 9.215 BTC [+]
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06:37 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6650 @ 0.00062519 = 4.1575 BTC [-]
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06:58 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23193 @ 0.00062446 = 14.4831 BTC [-] {2}
07:04 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22722 @ 0.00063318 = 14.3871 BTC [+] {2}
07:11 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2375 @ 0.00079899 = 1.8976 BTC [+] {2}
~ 18 minutes ~
07:29 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3150 @ 0.00065028 = 2.0484 BTC [+]
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07:44 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18900 @ 0.00064844 = 12.2555 BTC [-] {2}
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08:06 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8400 @ 0.00062913 = 5.2847 BTC [-]
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08:35 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29400 @ 0.00062236 = 18.2974 BTC [-] {2}
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09:28 mike_c ;;later tell jurov re: dec. qntra shares http://dpaste.com/3FJ1DGC
09:28 assbot dpaste: 3FJ1DGC ... ( http://bit.ly/1DtDBNU )
09:28 mike_c oh. doh. stupid gribble
09:42 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2678 @ 0.00061857 = 1.6565 BTC [-]
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10:06 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29300 @ 0.00061615 = 18.0532 BTC [-]
10:14 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39822 @ 0.00062137 = 24.7442 BTC [+] {2}
10:21 TomServo !up nubbins`
~ 20 minutes ~
10:42 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37715 @ 0.0006136 = 23.1419 BTC [-] {3}
10:44 thestringpuller nubbins`!!
10:45 thestringpuller sir nubbins` returns for the btc apocalypse
10:45 nubbins` greetings, fellow wealthy elite
10:46 TomServo !up Naphex
10:49 Naphex thanks
10:51 thestringpuller how goes it nubbins` curator and creator of dee arts
10:54 TomServo !up nubbins`
10:54 TomServo nubbins`: if you're still wanting to see your work in the wild, here you go: http://i.imgur.com/EAXAWHL.jpg
10:54 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1tM62GS )
10:55 nubbins` busy
10:55 nubbins` oh, right on!
10:55 nubbins` #52, that's pretty low
10:56 nubbins` in fact, #2 from the publicly-available ones :D
10:57 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16000 @ 0.00061287 = 9.8059 BTC [-]
10:59 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23200 @ 0.00063966 = 14.8401 BTC [+]
11:00 thestringpuller glad to know you haven't been kidnapped by terrorists mr. nubbins`
11:02 jurov mike_c thanks!
11:06 nubbins` or have i
11:06 mike_c yw. a few bitcents in the tip jar :)
11:07 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8400 @ 0.00061287 = 5.1481 BTC [-]
11:09 jurov ;;later tell mircea_popescu care to send qntr shares over?
11:10 mike_c gribble is still dead
11:11 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10429 @ 0.00063966 = 6.671 BTC [+]
11:17 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25650 @ 0.00063391 = 16.2598 BTC [-] {2}
~ 23 minutes ~
11:40 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15523 @ 0.00063966 = 9.9294 BTC [+]
11:46 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 155 @ 0.00670182 = 1.0388 BTC [-] {9}
11:47 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 127 @ 0.00807821 = 1.0259 BTC [-]
12:01 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21971 @ 0.00064356 = 14.1397 BTC [+] {2}
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12:26 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18244 @ 0.00063088 = 11.5098 BTC [-] {3}
~ 19 minutes ~
12:45 BingoBoingo jurov: http://dpaste.com/1BV7FCV
12:45 assbot dpaste: 1BV7FCV ... ( http://bit.ly/1DfTV7U )
12:45 BingoBoingo Thx
12:48 BingoBoingo !up pete_dushenski
12:48 pete_dushenski ty :)
12:49 jurov BingoBoingo: good but it needs a destination
12:49 jurov it's the same as last month?
12:49 BingoBoingo Yeah
12:54 pete_dushenski lol this is the random trilema post that just popped up for me: http://trilema.com/2013/any-questions/
12:54 assbot Any questions ? pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DfWiaJ )
12:54 pete_dushenski ^fitting
12:55 mike_c oh i miss mpoe-pr: "Yes, for as long as you don't try to take them out they're safe."
12:55 pete_dushenski those years in the trenches...
12:57 pete_dushenski mike_c so anything exciting in the pipeline for btcalpha ?
12:57 mike_c much improved bitbet analyzer coming soon. it is being stubborn about getting finished, but it will happen.
12:57 pete_dushenski a nice
12:58 pete_dushenski i've used it a few times
12:58 pete_dushenski can't say it terribly influenced my decisions, or if it did, not for the better.
12:58 mike_c hehe. more betting!
12:59 pete_dushenski the optimised tangent always encourages what is imo over-betting
12:59 mike_c well, the "correct" amount to bet depends on what you think the % chance of the event happening is.
12:59 pete_dushenski "pot odds"
12:59 mike_c the new analyzer will tell you how much to bet based on your input of % of event happenning.
13:00 pete_dushenski heh i like the sound of that
13:01 pete_dushenski mike_c don't suppose there's been any bidders for wol eh ?
13:02 mike_c nope
13:02 pete_dushenski what did it cost to build ?
13:02 pete_dushenski roughly
13:03 mike_c six months of my life and $5k?
13:04 pete_dushenski let's say you're worth $100k per year? so $55 k.
13:04 mike_c i am worth much more than that.
13:04 pete_dushenski lol this we know ;)
13:04 mike_c (not that i'm bitter)
13:05 pete_dushenski but your net worth != your hypothetical salary either
13:05 pete_dushenski your salary would be based on your skills as applied to this project
13:06 mike_c how much do you think it would cost to hire someone to build something like that and trust that it would be done well?
13:06 mike_c your estimation was $50 / hr. I doubt that is the case.
13:07 pete_dushenski well a decent lawyer is $350/hr
13:07 pete_dushenski let's say we're talking that level of professionalism
13:07 mike_c that is excessive. call it $100/hr.
13:07 pete_dushenski ok, so wol is $105k.
13:07 mike_c feels right
13:08 pete_dushenski hm ya
13:08 pete_dushenski surprisingly close to the ~500 btc ipo
13:08 pete_dushenski if you have $200 btc, which we almost do
13:09 pete_dushenski but of course the cost to build doesn't equal the value of the finished product
13:09 pete_dushenski a useful product should be valued much higher, a useless product much lower
13:10 pete_dushenski anyways, now we know that mike_c is $100/hr!
13:10 mike_c don't believe it. i'm not for hire :)
13:11 assbot Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3XHEG1P.txt )
13:11 BingoBoingo !b 2
13:17 mircea_popescu http://i61.tinypic.com/aczr6x.png < lol
13:17 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dg3cMZ )
13:18 mircea_popescu http://www.bizjournals.com/sanfrancisco/blog/2015/01/xoom-corp-fraud-30m-corporate-cash-cfo.html cazalla / BingoBoingo
13:18 assbot Xoom Corp. CFO resigns after fraudsters steal $30.8M in corporate cash - San Francisco Business Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dg3uDG )
13:18 mircea_popescu pity i hadn't made a derp for THIS one.
13:19 mircea_popescu pete_dushenski: ^fitting << hehe not bad eh.
13:20 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14297 @ 0.00062758 = 8.9725 BTC [-] {2}
13:20 pete_dushenski prescient!
13:20 mircea_popescu lol.
13:21 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11628 @ 0.00065027 = 7.5613 BTC [+] {2}
13:21 mircea_popescu i guess the largest shock to noobs is swallowing the actual history of mp-*, as it was.
13:21 mircea_popescu too livresque for reason.
13:21 mircea_popescu jurov: ;;later tell mircea_popescu care to send qntr shares over? << aye.
~ 15 minutes ~
13:36 BingoBoingo http://qntra.net/2015/01/remittance-company-xoom-loses-corporate-cash-to-fraud/
13:36 assbot Remittance Company Xoom Loses Corporate Cash To Fraud | Qntra.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1IlQryE )
13:37 mircea_popescu check that out, this new year was 1420070400. at some point during ny eve it crossed 1,42 trillion
13:38 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14256 @ 0.000655 = 9.3377 BTC [+]
13:38 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo if you add another whole paragraph about how dollars are inherently unsafe, used by terrorists and probably not going to "make it", culled directly from the idiocy spewed by idiots about btc
13:38 mircea_popescu i'd love you long time.
13:38 scoopbot New post on Qntra.net by Bingo Boingo: http://qntra.net/2015/01/remittance-company-xoom-loses-corporate-cash-to-fraud/
13:39 mircea_popescu should be standard practice for any article mentioning fiat. the msm is doing it to us, obviously we'll be doing it to them. let teh public pick up the pieces.
13:39 BingoBoingo k
13:43 pete_dushenski https://twitter.com/Sathnam/status/552395263655280641
13:43 assbot Love how Zuckerberg talks about books as if they are funky new app he has discovered. From /thetimes http://t.co/rum1YGcSt8
13:43 pete_dushenski and i'm off. cheers!
13:45 mircea_popescu i really don't think they should be called books properly.
13:45 mircea_popescu clearly they infringe on facebook intellectual propertahs.
13:45 BingoBoingo updated
13:47 mircea_popescu i dun think it saved or something ?
13:51 BingoBoingo I didn't add much this time. Gotta think of more lines for future fiat articles.
13:54 mircea_popescu yeh not very good.
13:54 mircea_popescu mainly because it somehow elides that the problem is the dollar.
13:56 mircea_popescu anyway, too lazy to go into the 2012-2013 collection of "media" derpage.
13:57 BingoBoingo Takes time to get the venom ready. There's bound to be other stories to dip in the venom when its ready.
13:58 mircea_popescu tis a point hehe
14:03 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25925 @ 0.00065029 = 16.8588 BTC [-]
14:05 mircea_popescu it occurs to me... it must suck to be a lesbian. i mean a real one, the whatever, .4% demographic.
14:05 scoopbot New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/mpex-smpoe-december-2014-statement/
14:06 mircea_popescu not only are your odds of finding a like minded soul vanishingly tiny, but you're deluged in all the fat idiots who think that they may "hate men", as something that's at their disposal, and it's your job and obligation to humor them, because "you're different".
14:06 mircea_popescu and will raise hell if you dare observe that they're the same stinky, unbearable, impossible idiots that men think they are, pretending lesbianism is not a magical cure.
14:07 mircea_popescu meanwhile gay men have for one thing five to ten times as many legit other gay men to meet, and looser dudes make up "men going alone" clubs instead of deciding they're now gay and the gay community must turn itself into mcdonalds to accomodate them.
14:10 thestringpuller cazalla: back yet?
14:16 bitstein Gavin just posted this. Thought y'all would be interested: http://gavintech.blogspot.com/2015/01/looking-before-scaling-up-leap.html
14:16 assbot GavinTech: Looking before the Scaling Up Leap ... ( http://bit.ly/1xOTk8l )
14:17 asciilifeform axe-time, sword-time, coming closer
14:17 mircea_popescu i can't be arsed to read blogspot junk.
14:18 mircea_popescu maybe if someone important said something. maybe.
14:24 TomServo What would Gavin be referring to when he says "the reference implementation"?
14:24 mircea_popescu systemd, perhaps.
14:24 TomServo heh
14:24 mircea_popescu i dunno that they have much other reference.
14:25 mircea_popescu but anyway, gavin hasn't been making any sense for a long time now.
14:29 TomServo Yes, and reading this makes that ring even more true.
14:37 mircea_popescu kakobrekla check out the power and influence of bitbet. so, there's http://bitbet.us/bet/962/obama-approval-rating-over-45-in-2014/
14:37 assbot BitBet - Obama Approval Rating over 45% in 2014 :: 0.16 B (53%) on Yes, 0.14 B (47%) on No | closed 2 weeks 5 days ago ... ( http://bit.ly/1xOWMjn )
14:37 mircea_popescu now check out gallup : http://www.gallup.com/poll/116479/Barack-Obama-Presidential-Job-Approval.aspx
14:37 assbot Presidential Approval Ratings -- Barack Obama | Gallup Historical Data & Trends ... ( http://bit.ly/1xOWN76 )
14:37 mircea_popescu NEVER throughout the year has it been over 45
14:38 mircea_popescu except they shoved a 46 in there at the end for the first week of 2015. which, of course, includes three days of 2014.
14:38 mircea_popescu this was a coincidence, right ? and gallup actually conducts its polls, like irl, right ?
~ 34 minutes ~
15:12 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17250 @ 0.00061584 = 10.6232 BTC [-]
15:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu achtung
15:19 mircea_popescu hm ?
15:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu incoming pgp
15:19 mircea_popescu coolness.
15:22 kakobrekla yes, the power of coincidence is great power.
15:22 Apocalyptic wtf blogspot doesn't load at all without js, seriously... bitstein could you post a text pastebin ?
15:23 bitstein http://pastebin.com/YfQLnKQz
15:23 assbot Looking before the Scaling Up Leap - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1xBMVyG )
15:23 Apocalyptic thank you
15:24 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5575 @ 0.00062973 = 3.5107 BTC [+]
15:30 jurov BingoBoingo thestringpuller : qntra shares transferred
15:41 mircea_popescu scoopbot -fetch
15:41 mircea_popescu !echo scoopbot -fetch
15:41 mircea_popescu hm.
15:43 thestringpuller jurov: thank you
15:43 mircea_popescu bitstein thanks for the pastebin.
15:43 kakobrekla heh, i sent some ppl to check the logs sometimes, mostly i get back "what language is this, english?"
15:45 mircea_popescu i guess it's time to write a post about all this.
15:46 bitstein You're welcome
15:49 rithm 20mb blocks eh
15:49 rithm 200mb blocks even
15:52 scoopbot New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/oil-theory/
15:52 thestringpuller lol scoopy scoopy doo
15:53 thestringpuller asciilifeform: do we have to bring our own pitchforks or will they be provided for us?
15:53 asciilifeform own
15:53 kakobrekla >Oil does not come out of the ground naturally,
15:53 asciilifeform presently true
15:53 kakobrekla well it was discovered by coming out of the ground naturally.
15:53 asciilifeform was.
15:54 mircea_popescu wtf was the buterin scamcoin called, eleuterium ?
15:54 mircea_popescu eleusys ?
15:54 asciilifeform 'etherium'
15:54 mircea_popescu a ty
15:58 Apocalyptic wasn't it "ethereum" ?
15:58 TomServo Yes.
15:58 asciilifeform hm
16:00 kakobrekla oh wow they had 8 POC implementations so far.
16:01 kakobrekla they will run out of money by the 60th.
16:02 TomServo Another 2k or so left their wallet recently, incidentally.
16:02 kakobrekla how much left?
16:02 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19387 @ 0.00063255 = 12.2632 BTC [+]
16:02 Apocalyptic they will be resupplied as long as derps have money I fear
16:02 kakobrekla left to leave
16:03 asciilifeform waterfall.
16:03 kakobrekla i doubt they will get resupplied tbh
16:03 TomServo 17,521.36256657
16:03 Apocalyptic kakobrekla, wait for the new exclusive presale of new ethers, -50% NOW !
16:03 TomServo Only gone down from the 27,000ish peak around Sep 1
16:03 kakobrekla muh.
16:04 asciilifeform i dare to suggest a possible term for another thing the ethereum folks do; 'chump fracking'
16:05 asciilifeform just as in hydraulic fracturing, foreign substance is pumped into the earth to liberate the goods,
16:05 kakobrekla which is ?
16:05 asciilifeform synthetic chumps (btc stolen by usg organs) is pumped into eth
16:05 kakobrekla paper btc
16:05 kakobrekla ?
16:05 asciilifeform not only to drive waterfall directly, but to create an appearance of a 'happening', 'hot' chumpatron
16:06 asciilifeform and bring in the naturally-occurring but recalcitrant chumpers.
16:06 kakobrekla as far as i understand sibert now runs paper fund
16:06 kakobrekla silbert*
16:08 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13231 @ 0.00061737 = 8.1684 BTC [-] {2}
16:09 kakobrekla how much did he have under his belt anyway, 20k, 200k ? i forgot
16:09 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9681 @ 0.00061415 = 5.9456 BTC [-]
16:12 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo / cazalla : http://trilema.com/2015/if-you-go-on-a-bitcoin-fork-irrespective-which-scammer-proposes-it-you-will-lose-your-bitcoins/
16:12 assbot If you go on a Bitcoin fork, irrespective which scammer proposes it, you will lose your Bitcoins. pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgNTE2 )
16:12 TomServo Found a coidesk article from April saying 100k
16:12 mircea_popescu sort-of news.
16:12 mircea_popescu <kakobrekla> as far as i understand sibert now runs paper fund << kinda my understanding as well. but hey, if his customers are happy with it...
16:12 mircea_popescu oh and bitstein ^
16:15 mircea_popescu now if mod6 an' ben_vulpes + whoever else can contribute get snappy with the actual foudnation work, the beheading of gavin's pretense will come exactly in time for a smooth transition to a muchly superior alternative.
16:15 * asciilifeform feels guilt re: mod6-vuples foundation, almost like it were a bastard son he can't quite afford to feed
16:15 mircea_popescu i dun imagine they'll pretend like they "tested" it in less than a few months, so there's still a season i'd guess.
16:16 * asciilifeform is sitting on a shameful quantity of unfinished patches for their apparatus
16:19 asciilifeform ben_vulpes, mod6, mircea_popescu: which one(s) of you is even doing the merges, anyway ?
16:19 mircea_popescu i thought jurov
16:19 asciilifeform aha
16:19 mircea_popescu wasn't he maintaining the list an errything ?
16:19 asciilifeform list, yes. wasn't sure about the tree itself
16:20 * asciilifeform vaguely recalls ben_vulpes having wangled together an autobuilder of sorts
16:20 mircea_popescu ah
16:25 mircea_popescu and, of course, much like in the case of the "ethereum short" nobody actually bought, here is me looking for counterparties willing to buy gavin-bitcoins on the understanding that the transaction will only be valid on the gavin fork, but not in actual bitcoin.
16:25 asciilifeform the 'gaw' crap boggles my mind. how is this shit even still possible.
16:25 mircea_popescu ideally 1k+ piles.
16:25 asciilifeform it has to be chump fracking.
16:25 mircea_popescu yes, it is.
16:26 kakobrekla gaw is not usg powered
16:27 kakobrekla just greed.
16:27 asciilifeform on the contrary, synthetic chumpfracking fluid is a usg product.
16:27 mircea_popescu stupidity i thought, but yes.
16:27 mircea_popescu who implied us powering ?
16:27 kakobrekla ascii did with the fracking.
16:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nah, they're naturally that clueless.
16:28 mircea_popescu i mean if you must, in a very 3rd hand way, "through ruining public schools" or w/e.
16:28 asciilifeform from whence come the mass of idiot coin, though
16:28 mircea_popescu what brings you over mquin ?
16:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform from the fertile union of a very strong "must succeed" ideology and a very narrow "math is hard" cluelessness.
16:29 mquin mircea_popescu: we seem to be getting questions about this channel and cloaking quite regularly lately
16:29 mircea_popescu !s from:t
16:29 assbot 19 results for 'from:t' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=from%3At
16:29 scoopbot New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/if-you-go-on-a-bitcoin-fork-irrespective-which-scammer-proposes-it-you-will-lose-your-bitcoins/
16:29 mircea_popescu there's the previous discussion with t[homas] ?
16:29 mircea_popescu anyway, includes a pastebin of the #freenode discussion etc.
16:30 kakobrekla so if the majority of miners accepts the fork mpex is out of luck ?
16:30 mircea_popescu nope.
16:30 mircea_popescu if a majority of miners accepts the fork they still have to relay and mine all my txn.
16:30 mircea_popescu for as long as there's one miner that doesn't, however...
16:31 kakobrekla aha youll open a pool.
16:31 mircea_popescu this is one of those requiring absolute consensus.
16:31 mircea_popescu kakobrekla all i need really is a tiny miner. even gpus will do.
16:32 mircea_popescu heck, if 99% of miners move to the fake chain all the better - lower real diff for a while.
16:32 mircea_popescu the fake coins they mine won't actually be worth anything once the fake chain dies. sort-of longest orphan block in history.
16:33 kakobrekla vs the gpu miners :)
16:33 mircea_popescu hey, this is what people with gpus wanted all along, right ? a chance to mine again.
16:33 mircea_popescu if any of the asic farms is stupid enough to update (which is sort-of doubt, but hey, stupidity is bottomless) then they get their wish.
16:33 asciilifeform 'lenin is young again!' (tm)
16:33 mircea_popescu notably, at absolutely no cost. it's like a gift.
16:34 kakobrekla i dont think asics needs upgrading
16:34 mircea_popescu who can say no to gifts.
16:34 mircea_popescu kakobrekla "upgrading" in the limited sense of building on a 1mb+ block.
16:34 mircea_popescu which no miner currently does.
16:35 kakobrekla yes but switching is not something that takes time or resources.
16:35 mircea_popescu well no, switching doesn't. but mining in the dead chain takes as many resources as you're willing to throw at it.
16:35 kakobrekla for pool op is something like apt-get update and done
16:35 mircea_popescu might as well mine the wall.
16:36 mircea_popescu nevertheless, if anyone wants to make a pool for the purpose that can't hurt anything.
16:38 mircea_popescu asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2015/open-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111208
16:38 assbot [OPEN] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgUhLt )
16:39 mircea_popescu artifexd ya was just looking for you in the list lol
16:39 artifexd I have decided that I like this ircd project.
16:39 mircea_popescu o hey.
16:40 mircea_popescu can you actually do it ?
16:40 artifexd I like it to the point of being willing to commit time to do it.
16:40 mircea_popescu am i s/open/artifexd/ ?
16:40 asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2015/open-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111210
16:41 assbot [OPEN] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgV4fg )
16:41 asciilifeform answerd
16:41 artifexd Would you like to discuss in here or keep it in the comments?
16:41 * asciilifeform believes that the scheme as originally described is disastrously mistaken
16:41 mircea_popescu coments best!
16:44 artifexd mircea_popescu> am i s/open/artifexd/ ? << huh?
16:45 rithm port 1337 tho kinda elitist don't you think
16:45 TomServo Nah, just leetist
16:46 rithm 7000 would be more in line as a "standard" irc port with security
16:46 asciilifeform but this isn't irc !
16:46 TomServo a port is a port
16:46 rithm riiiight
16:46 asciilifeform has no one actually -read- the thing ?
16:46 artifexd mircea_popescu> can you actually do it ? << There are mad amounts of detail to work out. That said, yes. I can do it.
16:47 rithm so it's a new rfc and interoperability means nothing
16:47 rithm i forgot it's unicorn land please continue
16:47 kakobrekla i think the idea is to fix shit, not make it more beautiful.
16:49 rithm seems like centralized mechanism to prevent mitm, really only becomes decentralize with more /links
16:49 asciilifeform centralized ?
16:49 asciilifeform rithm: did you actually read mircea_popescu's article ?
16:49 rithm i think i'm looking at it now
16:50 punkman hilarious uncloaking exploits https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y1OHO4FJvKs
16:50 assbot DerbyCon 3 0 2306 Uncloaking Ip Addresses On Irc Derek Callaway - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgWMx6 )
16:50 mircea_popescu artifexd am i editing the thing to reflect you're doin' it.
16:50 rithm b. A list of IPs
16:50 rithm the "thing" scales with /links to other "things"
16:51 mircea_popescu <rithm> port 1337 tho kinda elitist don't you think << yes, i do.
16:52 rithm so the client is the server in this scenario or not? is it more p2p or not because i'm not seeing this definition in the language
16:52 punkman (and some text related to video http://decal.sdf.org/spotfedsonline/ )
16:52 assbot Spot The Fed: Online Edition ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgXcDI )
16:52 rithm traditional irc is clinet/server but this isn't irc
16:52 mircea_popescu there is no "Server"
16:52 mircea_popescu much like in bitcoin, some will run larger clients which people can reliably connect to.
16:52 mircea_popescu but they'd still be running the client code, more or less.
16:53 rithm if it scales verically like "interaction" with this thing creates a new "server" then that doesn't sound centralized
16:53 mircea_popescu <rithm> so it's a new rfc and interoperability means nothing << interoperability with what ?
16:53 asciilifeform active thread on mircea_popescu's site, btw
16:53 rithm not that architecture, but I'm not reading that definition on trilema
16:54 rithm TFA title says ircd but it's not something to interoperate with any known ircd correct
16:54 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8900 @ 0.00061415 = 5.4659 BTC [-]
16:54 mircea_popescu correct.
16:55 asciilifeform perhaps misleading title, 'better ircd', i admit i almost postponed reading it when first saw on account of this
16:55 mircea_popescu ftr, the car was called "a better horse buggy" originally.
16:55 punkman forward secrecy would be nice if possible
16:55 mircea_popescu if one doesn't buy into the entire "branding, even if or especially if before the fact" one's stuck with this. i don't mind it so much.
16:56 mircea_popescu punkman forward secrecy is a one on one affair, mostly. the salt is supposed to implement as much as it's possible, and the lack of signatures.
16:56 mircea_popescu perhaps i don't actually see the whole ball there tho.
16:57 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i argue that all transmissions must be signed, if this is to be the thing it is really meant to be.
16:57 mircea_popescu but seriously, let's move all discussion on the article, otherwise it'll be hard to fish from logs later on
16:57 * mircea_popescu shall make further responses there.
16:59 mircea_popescu http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rk3it/score_so_far_gavins_fork_0btc_mps_fork_killer_1/ << lol ty mr hahs, whoever you are.
16:59 assbot Score so far: Gavin's fork, 0BTC | MP's fork killer, 1 million BTC? : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgYLBR )
17:02 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/ << updated.
17:02 assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1DgZHpO )
17:12 ben_vulpes <mircea_popescu> heck, if 99% of miners move to the fake chain all the better - lower real diff for a while. << why if 99% of miners move onto that chain, would anyone ever move off?
17:13 mircea_popescu because they can't spend the fake btc they "mined"
17:13 mircea_popescu (i don't mean technically, i mean financially, nobody's accepting it for value)
17:14 jurov but if 99% of miners move to the fake chain, then it will take years till difficulty adjusts.. or we§d have to fork it and adjust anyway
17:14 mircea_popescu from the perspective of the blockchain, the situation is identical to "what woud happen if 99% of miners turned their rigs off"
17:15 mircea_popescu well... nothing ? once they turn them back on they can mine again.
17:15 * kakobrekla doesnt have great hopes for this upcoming blockchain size war.
17:15 Apocalyptic jurov, good point
17:16 jurov and how it comes financially? suddenly the garzikcoin stop being excnaged for stuff cuz mircea said so?
17:16 jurov *exchanged
17:16 mircea_popescu no, just, mircea's bitcoin in its gavin aspect is being sold. so miners of gavin chain will have to compete with that.
17:17 punkman btw the irc services library used by freenode is EOL'd
17:17 punkman "There will not be another release cycle after Atheme 7.2. We encourage the community to fork Atheme and choose the most suitable forks to drive IRC forward. To this end, we will maintain Atheme 7.2 as a suitable base for forking until October 31, 2015, with all services terminating on October 31, 2016."
17:17 mircea_popescu and merchants accepting it will have to somehow finance the risk, too.
17:17 Apocalyptic kakobrekla, as in you doubt the outcome will be in favour of b-a ?
17:18 mircea_popescu i kinda doubt they actually have the guts to go through with it,
17:18 mircea_popescu but hey.
17:18 mircea_popescu you don't always get the maximal fun out of situations.
17:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu, artifexd, other interested folks: http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111218
17:19 assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dh3OC1 )
17:19 mircea_popescu jurov that 99% figure is mostly a joke. look at the exchanges as they are, think what even a 50k wall would do at say 30 usd per. how exactly are thjose 99% of miners going to finance operations for a week when their block reward is worth ~750 bux ?
17:20 mircea_popescu at best gavin will manage to crush the gavin-bitcoin to whatever it was in 2012 and that's that.
17:20 mircea_popescu nobody's pouring out peta hashes for free for weeks on end.
17:20 jurov you mean you will dump 50k gavins?
17:20 mircea_popescu i will dump all my bitcoin, on the gavin fork.
17:21 kakobrekla you know why we have miners?
17:21 artifexd asciilifeform: lol
17:21 mircea_popescu show teh us how dumping's actually done. what, dja have any idea how long i pined for an opportuniy to play the easy side of this game ?
17:21 kakobrekla cause they cant do math.
17:21 mircea_popescu kakobrekla yeah, right.
17:22 artifexd asciilifeform: I was typing up that exact same idea
17:22 mircea_popescu not what i've been hearing from teh chinese folks on the topic, but w/e, gavin's more than welcome to persevere in his usg-is-the-world delusions.
17:22 kakobrekla they will in fact mine with ev-
17:22 mircea_popescu kakobrekla for how long ?
17:22 asciilifeform the miners in the sealed mine will mine on body fat for as long as they can.
17:22 mircea_popescu 1mn a day. how long ?
17:22 akisora Thanks. I was wondering how things worked here since gribble is offline
17:23 akisora I can't auth on gribble. Not that I have any ratings
17:23 mircea_popescu they work... barely.
17:23 kakobrekla ill just say my guess is better than sexygingers.
17:23 mircea_popescu well sure.
17:24 mircea_popescu nevertheless, this "they'll mine at -ev" is from the days of gpus.
17:24 kakobrekla nah.
17:24 mircea_popescu otherwise, miner farms are actually pretty stretched as it is, financially.
17:26 asciilifeform artifexd: http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111220
17:26 assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dh5lIy )
17:27 kakobrekla dude, vps is like a dollar a month.
17:27 kakobrekla (for the purpose of bouncer)
17:29 asciilifeform kakobrekla: there are folks about (some even in #b-a) who have a habit of using something other than an actual computer for their daily work (i won't point fingers)
17:29 asciilifeform kakobrekla: they will succumb to the temptation of running the entire demon, and not merely a proxy, on the 'bouncer.'
17:30 kakobrekla i thought nobody even has an actual computer.
17:30 asciilifeform doctor will say to patient 'if it hurts, stop doing it'
17:30 asciilifeform but the entire problem is entirely avoidable
17:30 asciilifeform minimal standard of computer for purpose of this thread
17:30 kakobrekla :)
17:31 asciilifeform box that will compile and run an unpretentious posix demon without major handholding
17:31 kakobrekla context always fucks everything up.
17:32 mircea_popescu no kako, it's u! not context!
17:32 mircea_popescu :D
17:33 mircea_popescu jurov this discussion entirely elides the more important point of "why in the fuck would miners even consider a proposal that inflates their main ware".
17:34 mircea_popescu the block rewards keeps going down. how are they going to make money if there's no pressure on txn to pay ? is gavin going to give them it ?
17:34 Apocalyptic this falls to kako's argument "they can't do math"
17:36 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7950 @ 0.00064331 = 5.1143 BTC [+]
17:36 jurov we don't know who the damn miners actually are anymore
17:36 mircea_popescu Apocalyptic kako's argument needs a "and the govt will print money and give it to them. forever" companion.
17:36 mircea_popescu otherwise, it's as good as the argument that "my horse doesn't need to eat"
17:36 mircea_popescu jurov "we". i kinda do.
17:38 jurov i see. so you are certain these entities are mostly motivated by profit.
17:38 mircea_popescu yes.
17:38 Apocalyptic "rational entities" will be sufficient imo
17:39 mircea_popescu even the statal actors have a limited budget.
17:39 mircea_popescu this war exceeds that.
17:43 asciilifeform the only way enemy could win this hypothetical engagement is if he can set his fork up to 'catabolically break down' the original bitcoin network ( mircea_popescu's army on the board )
17:43 thestringpuller http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/2rji9f/looking_before_the_scaling_up_leap_by_gavin/ << these comments are giving me brain cancer
17:44 asciilifeform say, by engineering a continuous double-spend attempt into normal operation of 'usgcoin' miners
17:44 asciilifeform (double-spend on the 'actual' net, naturally)
17:45 mircea_popescu thestringpuller the lulzy part in there is "clearly the thing that's not needed but we kept repeating that it is, is in fact needed. because...uh..."
17:45 mircea_popescu asciilifeform what'd that do ?
17:47 akisora did Gavin just say there are special rules for coinbase??
17:47 mircea_popescu hm ?
17:48 akisora In the article linked in the reddit thestringpuller posted Gavin said "2. There are special rules for 'coinbase' transactions: there can be only one coinbase transaction per block, it must be the first transaction, etc."
17:48 akisora What the fuck is that? lol
17:49 akisora I don't understand what is going on with that
17:49 Apocalyptic akisora, coinbase transactions, not "Coinbase" the company
17:49 mircea_popescu akisora this was always the case.
17:50 akisora oh okay :)
17:50 mircea_popescu the "coinbase" tx is the tx that pays the miners for the block mined, that 25 btc
17:50 thestringpuller d00d
17:50 thestringpuller my iq is dropping
17:50 thestringpuller i need to stop reading this
17:50 thestringpuller but it's like watching a really bad movie
17:50 thestringpuller you cna't look away
17:53 Bet placed: 2 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under 200$ before Feb" http://bitbet.us/bet/1095/ Odds: 17(Y):83(N) by coin, 18(Y):82(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.03161579 BTC. Current weight: 88,975.
17:55 thestringpuller !up hanbot
17:55 hanbot thx thestringpuller
17:55 thestringpuller np
18:05 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what'd that do ? << if your estimate in 'this was exceeds that [necessary budget]' is correct - it will do nothing.
18:05 asciilifeform *war
18:07 mircea_popescu perhaps.
18:07 mircea_popescu the us has a lengthy history of getting involved in wars it can't afford
18:07 hanbot BingoBoingo http://pastebin.com/npDQM1iT (re xoom piece)
18:07 assbot Despite Xoom's vague assertion that "it doesn't think that customer data or cust - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1yxYKHX )
18:07 mircea_popescu and the us muppets are currently shivering to death in a "democratic" ukraine that CLEARLY had to have its block sizes increased.
18:07 mircea_popescu so... you never know.
18:08 mircea_popescu i always hope on the side of getting to do some raping. and pillaging.
18:08 mircea_popescu ohai hanbot :D
18:08 asciilifeform 'here's a lesson all must learn: first you pillage, then you burn'
18:08 hanbot hallo!
18:09 mircea_popescu lol@ piece.
18:09 mircea_popescu totally should contrib moar to qntra.
18:12 asciilifeform 'going the way of linux' << depressing
18:12 mircea_popescu depression : just another public service i offer.
18:13 asciilifeform 'wagner: free; cyanide - extra five pfennigs'
18:13 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14962 @ 0.00064907 = 9.7114 BTC [+]
18:15 mircea_popescu http://www.faqs.org/faqs/music/birthday-dirge-faq/ btw.
18:15 assbot [FAQ] Lyrics for The Birthday Dirge ... ( http://bit.ly/1yy0yAJ )
18:16 mircea_popescu Burn the castle, storm the keep, kill the women, save the sheep.
18:17 asciilifeform 'May your deeds with sword and axe / Equal those with sheep and yaks.'
18:26 scoopbot New post on Trilema by Mircea Popescu: http://trilema.com/2015/no-such-labs-snsa-november-2014-and-december-2014-joint-statement/
18:30 asciilifeform ty mircea_popescu
18:30 asciilifeform did a series of small asteroids just hit fleanode or what.
18:30 asciilifeform the node i was plugged into - is dead now.
18:32 asciilifeform (incidentally, at least every other fleanode host has broken 'sasl' auth. learn which ones, if your client has 'auto-connect' to #b-a)
18:32 mircea_popescu "Saudi Arabia shipped 54 percent of its crude oil exports to Asia in 2013, with another 17 percent to the United States, according to Saudi Aramco's annual report. It shipped just 5.4 percent to Europe and 6.7 percent to the Mediterranean. In total, crude exports ran at 6.8 million bpd."
18:32 mircea_popescu "petrodollar" indeed lol
18:32 mircea_popescu asciilifeform sasl is dysfunctional anyway.
18:33 asciilifeform well yes. but it is 'duct tape' for the cloak thing.
18:33 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6738 @ 0.00063478 = 4.2771 BTC [-]
18:35 * asciilifeform makes small 'public service announcement' that, with gribble dead, any one of us present company could be hitler.
18:36 asciilifeform or rather, at any time could have been hitler, but previously the fuhrer would have been required to put in a little sweat and pwn fleanode wholesale, whereas now he just needs to break nickserv
18:36 asciilifeform or just slip in a few packets
18:39 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31400 @ 0.00065281 = 20.4982 BTC [+] {5}
~ 27 minutes ~
19:06 asciilifeform http://cryptome.org/2015/01/snowden-nsa-pay-for-silence.htm << mega-lol
19:06 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/13Yw9O5 )
19:08 asciilifeform 'PARASTOO IS INFORMING THAT "CPLD AND FPGA BITSTREAMS" RUNNING THE SECURITY MODULES IN BOTH GROUND STATIONS AND MANY OF THE HOVERING ACTUAL SATELLITES THAT ARE LINKED TO SOME TARGETED NOCs ARE FULLY DECRYPTED ..AND WE FOUND -- WHILE DOING SATANIC LAUGHS -- SOME OF THESE UGLY CODES ARE NOT EVEN COMPATIBLE WITH BASIC NIST'S FIPS SECURITY GRADE GIVEN TO THESE PRODUCTS WITH $+APPLAUSE .'
19:09 asciilifeform ^ good 'dissociated press' (shannonizer) output? or actual human speaking ?
19:09 asciilifeform ( quoted from http://cryptome.org/2015/01/parastoo-opjfk.htm )
19:09 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/13YwznG )
19:09 BingoBoingo !up muh_buttcoins
19:09 muh_buttcoins hi
19:10 BingoBoingo Hallo muh_buttcoins
19:10 asciilifeform any scholars of farsi lang. here ? is above a plausible eng. mistranslation? and if so, of what.
19:10 muh_buttcoins is speculating on the price discouraged here
19:11 BingoBoingo muh_buttcoins: Not entirely
19:11 muh_buttcoins what % of your net wealth do you think is a good amount to invest in bitcoin
19:12 BingoBoingo muh_buttcoins: It depends. What % of your net wealth do you presently depend on for provisioning a roof and some food?
19:12 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30250 @ 0.00064556 = 19.5282 BTC [-] {3}
19:13 muh_buttcoins maybe 3-5%
19:14 mircea_popescu asciilifeform how would someone know if sometyhing's a mistranslation absernt source matrerial ?
19:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: occasionally there are idiomatic residual clues
19:14 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: can't expect hard proof of anything whatsoever, sure.
19:14 asciilifeform what, for instance, is 'doing satanic laughs ?'
19:15 BingoBoingo Ah, in that case prolly no more than 97-95 percent so you don't starve or go homeless. Prolly keep the number lower than that though. Diversify get apartments in different cities around the world, ya know.
19:15 mircea_popescu afaik no farsi in gtranslate, so there is that
19:15 asciilifeform the mere emission of a 'muhahahaha' - or some more specific activity peculiar to reverse-engineering purloined fpga bitstreams ?
19:15 BingoBoingo hanbot: Is that a comment or a article submission?
19:15 mircea_popescu prolly laughing ass off.
19:15 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it is marked 'persian' there.
19:16 mircea_popescu muh_buttcoins http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoin-assets-rules-and-regulations/
19:16 assbot #bitcoin-assets rules and regulations pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/13Yy3yb )
19:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: and works, about as well as russian-english (which is to say, very threadbare)
19:16 mircea_popescu esp 2, interesting in your case.
19:16 mircea_popescu so google for انجام می خندد شیطانی then
19:17 assbot [MPEX] [S.QNTR] 7653 @ 0.00015 = 1.148 BTC [-]
19:18 mircea_popescu check it out, didn't break log! yay.
19:18 * asciilifeform blows dust off textbook
19:18 muh_buttcoins Do you guys think the Bitstamp owners stole the coins and made up the hacked story?
19:19 asciilifeform muh_buttcoins: if you were to meet with proof that it was so, or was not so, would the coins thereby unsteal themselves ?
19:19 asciilifeform muh_buttcoins: i'm genuinely curious as to why you would like to learn the answer to that question
19:20 muh_buttcoins Just seeking opinions on it
19:20 asciilifeform how could you ever hope to learn it?
19:20 mircea_popescu blockchain technologies ?
19:20 muh_buttcoins ...
19:20 muh_buttcoins wat
19:23 mircea_popescu anyway, go read the log, come back in half year or thereabouts.
19:23 asciilifeform one time, isaac asimov (iirc ?) got tired of idiots badgering him with questions re: subjects in which he could not possibly give informed answer, and some of these even retorted with 'please just give me your gut feeling!' to which he answered that he does not think with his gut, and the questioner is welcome to keep the company of those who do - elsewhere.
19:28 kakobrekla lol only now i notice, http://shrani.si/f/47/q8/C6Jp4Tl/cpu-day.png
19:28 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1s39lrX )
19:28 kakobrekla try harder next time.
19:29 mircea_popescu it almost looks liek nippals
19:29 kakobrekla bout 600 ips worth.
19:30 asciilifeform 600?! why so threadbare.
19:30 kakobrekla idk, twas a http flood , wp prolly
19:30 kakobrekla i dont care enough to check the logs.
19:31 asciilifeform there's an interesting similarity in the reactions of the freenode folks (quoted in earlier thread) and that of the wp fool (quoted in recent article on mircea_popescu's site)
19:31 asciilifeform (reaction to learning of ddos)
19:32 kakobrekla prolly same dude that is pestering trilema/qntra these days.
19:32 kakobrekla only bb is up tho :p
19:32 asciilifeform well yes, but the reactions of the 'nah it isn't our fault, and by the way have you tried plugging it in? and it ain't a bug, but a feature, at any rate'
19:32 kakobrekla aha
19:32 mircea_popescu i don't expect "the freenode folks" have technically very much at their disposal. this is the thing, frozen since the days lilo walked the earth.
19:33 mircea_popescu they can sort-of push the levers, they can send over diddled code to whatever "specialists" never to be heard from again,
19:33 mircea_popescu but on the whole... kinda mcdonald-ish, willy nilly.
19:33 asciilifeform there's also the interesting fact (i shall offer no attempt at proof here) that a significant chunk of fleanode traffic is botnet c&c
19:34 asciilifeform 'mcdonalds' is 'democratic' not only for leprous bomzhes, but for rats, mice, roaches.
19:35 mircea_popescu that part nobody can actually do much against.
19:35 mircea_popescu it's akin to saying that there's child porn in the blockchain. yes, of course there is.
19:35 asciilifeform wouldn't suggest that it is their duty to play exterminator
19:35 mircea_popescu what there isn't is "forbidden types of content"
19:35 asciilifeform but when there are more mice than human eater in the restaurant, mass-wise, it reflects poorly.
19:35 mircea_popescu well... humans are expensive.
19:36 artifexd mircea_popescu: Do you envision the ircd project have the end goal of replacing the freenode #b-a channel or is it only supposed to be a way for one individual to communicate with another individual?
19:36 asciilifeform artifexd: answer not obvious from the article ?
19:36 mircea_popescu artifexd it's supposed to replace ircd as a secure, fast and reliable means to communicate directly with others.
19:37 mircea_popescu arguably ircd isn't really any of these, but going by intent rather than practice.
19:37 * asciilifeform also points out that, as written, apparatus is also meant to replace the classical 'wot'
19:37 mircea_popescu obviously, will have to.
19:37 asciilifeform or at least offer a parachute of it.
19:37 mircea_popescu i thought about it for a while, but fundamentally, wot has a lot of trouble existing independent of the forum.
19:38 mircea_popescu such as, in medieval times punishment lists were put out in the marketplace.
19:38 asciilifeform as late as 18th c. actually.
19:38 mircea_popescu right.
19:38 asciilifeform as well as the actual punishments.
19:38 mircea_popescu http://seclists.org/fulldisclosure/2006/Jun/843 << old lilo drama, if anyone's unsatisfied by the piles of bitcoin drama we have fresh on tap.
19:39 assbot Full Disclosure: The truth about Rob Levin aka Lilo ofirc.freenode.net ... ( http://bit.ly/1s3aRdz )
19:39 * asciilifeform has been enjoying 'Seeing Justice Done. The Age of Spectacular Capital Punishment in France.' (Paul Friedland.)
↖
19:39 mircea_popescu (possibly the first in the trend of white trash "do-ologists", something that's apparently coming en vogue what with all the couch surfing entrepreneurs)
19:40 asciilifeform i vaguely recall reading his obituary ?
19:41 mircea_popescu yeah died at some point last decade
19:43 mircea_popescu reading the comments, this new ircd thing is actually fucking exciting.
19:45 scoopbot New post on Qntra.net by hanbot: http://qntra.net/2015/01/the-xoom-theft-and-the-future-of-the-dollar/
19:45 kakobrekla yeah you basically invented ethereum or something
19:46 mircea_popescu eh ?
19:46 kakobrekla >As you well observe, this thing is in fact Bitcoin without the shared public ledger (kept instead as a virtual private ledger by each node).
19:46 kakobrekla very blockchain 2.0
19:47 mircea_popescu heh
19:47 mircea_popescu on a lark i connect to efnet. first server simpyl fails to connect. 2nd dumps this http://pastebin.com/epe6WQBC
19:47 assbot * - Breaking one or more of the following policies will get you * - /Kill'ed an - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1s3c2d0 )
19:47 mircea_popescu srsly ?
19:47 asciilifeform artifexd, others: http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111236
19:47 assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1s3c30w )
19:48 artifexd !s erasure coding
19:48 assbot 5 results for 'erasure coding' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=erasure+coding
19:51 asciilifeform artifexd: there are several known ways of doing a 'fountain code' (term of art) - where a bitstring, B, is transformed into a number, N, of shorter bitstrings, whereby X of N can be collected, in any order, and with certain quantity of errors permissible, to reconstitute B.
19:51 asciilifeform X*N is naturally larger than B. by how much - depends on particular algorithm chosen.
19:53 asciilifeform the most classic, 'naive' algo for this, known to nearly everyone under one name or another, is reed-solomon.
19:53 asciilifeform but very high overhead.
19:54 mircea_popescu right, this is an excessive approach
19:54 asciilifeform this is one of the very few mathematical/computation subfields where there was real progress in the past twenty years.
19:54 artifexd I fear that the more complicated the math, the more likely I am to screw it up.
19:54 asciilifeform something like 'raptor' algorithm gives overhead of, iirc, 3-5%.
19:55 asciilifeform artifexd: a good compromise, probably, would be the Luby transform.
19:55 asciilifeform it can be implemented without unusual effort or mathematical education.
19:57 artifexd Is "can be transmitted via carrier pigeon" really a priority for this project?
19:57 asciilifeform not as such, imho
19:57 mircea_popescu nah.
19:57 asciilifeform but there is no particular reason to glue it to ip on protocol level
19:57 mircea_popescu ideally we keep away from any really dumb ideas that'd prevent moving away from the current situation
19:57 mircea_popescu but otherwisew this is supposed to work today.
19:58 asciilifeform if you can get packet P from your box to other end, using paper letter, but not the net - should be able to do so
19:59 artifexd TCP does offer advantages. Not having to reinvent/reimplement transmission reliability/ordering is not a minor thing.
19:59 mircea_popescu agreed.
20:00 asciilifeform not having to worry about syn floods, etc. plus frustrating most existing traffic analysis widgetry - udp, if done correctly, is a serious win
20:00 asciilifeform the connection-tracking apparatus of tcp is really half the force behind the sting of 'ddos'
20:00 artifexd syn floods are a solved problem
20:00 mircea_popescu it requires someone to do it correctly.
20:01 asciilifeform undergrad-level problem
20:01 mircea_popescu artifexd that all depends. relativelysolved lol
20:02 artifexd Boxes that sit in front of the server that establishes connections and only passes on the connected ones can be bought of the shelf, right?
20:03 mircea_popescu everything can be bought of the shelf neh ?
20:05 asciilifeform incidentally, here's a small idea. instead of transmitting snapshots of global state (of 'channel'), have each packet be a reconciliation of one particular pubkey's history. that way there is no need to reassemble gigantic blob.
20:05 artifexd As far as traffic analysis goes, as long as all of the transmissions are opaque noise (because they are encrypted) and are of constant size, analysis is impossible.
20:06 asciilifeform artifexd: it is also necessary that they have no temporal correlation to anything.
20:06 artifexd Right. But "once a second" is in the first draft of the rfc.
20:06 asciilifeform artifexd: this requires a fixed, steady flow of bits between the two points.
20:07 artifexd Yes.
20:07 mircea_popescu artifexd more's the point, i don't specifically give a shit about "analysis"
20:07 mircea_popescu let the derps analyze it until they fall over. this retreat of person to "anonymity" is exactly the wrong strategic moves.
20:07 mircea_popescu if the state controls the field of identity it doesn't need much more.
20:07 mircea_popescu no, i shan't live by any entities' permission. the state will live by my permission, or go down in a hail of bullets and flame thrower exhaust.
20:08 asciilifeform not suggesting that 'anonymity' warrants complicating design, but if it can be dropped by the gods from the sky at no cost, no reason not to pick up.
20:08 mircea_popescu sure, that much.
20:09 mircea_popescu on a more practical angle, you will note that the various entities relying on "secrecy" are in jail, from the pirate robets to the shrem dude. even "thanking the judge for a justice well done".
20:10 mircea_popescu should be obvious that model does not work. it doesn't, specifically because it caters to the idiocy it proposes very flimsily to be "against".
20:10 asciilifeform 'prison is like the grave, room can be found for everyone' (ru proverb)
20:10 artifexd Fountain codes, insomuch as I don't understand them, complicate the design. Padding the the structure that gets encrypted doesn't.
20:10 artifexd It is also possible that my own ignorance is complicating the design.
20:10 mircea_popescu artifexd nothing prevents the thing to be further upgraded later on.
20:11 artifexd true story
20:11 asciilifeform artifexd: you don't strictly speaking need fountain code in first version of this apparatus.
20:11 mircea_popescu for that matter, we have a much shittier version currently,
20:11 mircea_popescu and it's worked nothing short of splendidly for many years.
20:11 mircea_popescu improvements don't have to be absolute solutions to be useful. they just have to be absolute improvements.
20:11 asciilifeform artifexd: i was trying to suggest another way whereby no packet needs to exceed udp's mtu in size, or be guaranteed to reach its destination in the first try
20:12 artifexd 576 bytes ain't a lot of space.
20:12 asciilifeform artifexd: this would be - to reconcile history per-pubkey, rather than global.
20:13 asciilifeform 576 can hold a 2048-bit (ephemeral rsa key!) sig, a reasonably long key fp, and small payload.
20:13 mircea_popescu another advantage to tcp is that you don't really get to care about mtus and all that.
20:14 asciilifeform also appreciate a fine point:
20:14 mircea_popescu it is in my eyes much more valuable to have a working prototype rapidly, that then can be extended (and nothing will prevent a future client to filter traffic any way itchooses, say by accepting udp only)
20:14 asciilifeform with udp, a box running said protocol cannot be distinguished by enemy from one which is not
20:14 asciilifeform if he is not physically sitting on the wire
20:14 mircea_popescu asciilifeform so ?
20:14 asciilifeform if uninteresting, disregard.
20:14 mircea_popescu if done right, a reasonable expectation will be that any box is running it anyway.
20:15 artifexd Or just put it on port 80
20:15 asciilifeform i like 'unscannable for', not because of any derping re: 'anonymity', but from sheer delight in the morale hit to enemy
20:15 mircea_popescu that's a bit rich.
20:15 asciilifeform who likes things to be countable
20:15 asciilifeform and 'quantifiable'
20:15 asciilifeform 'threat assessment111!!!11'
20:15 mircea_popescu asciilifeform do not code for your enemy lol.
20:16 mircea_popescu we're doing this for ourselves.
20:16 asciilifeform when we make bullet - we make for enemy
20:16 asciilifeform not usually for self
20:16 mircea_popescu this is a tractor not a bullet.
20:16 asciilifeform tractor with 'maxim.'
20:16 mircea_popescu if the owner wieshes, sure.
20:18 asciilifeform i wouldn't bother arguing the udp/tcp point were it not for the fact that this is not a decision that can be easily re-visited.
20:18 asciilifeform for instance, if you immediately go with 4096-bit ephemeral keys, you're already at 512b. for sig alone.
20:18 mircea_popescu why not ?
20:18 mircea_popescu but there can be a later protocol extension covering udp
20:19 mircea_popescu and it will get more eyeballs reading code on the strength of the already existing thing.
20:19 asciilifeform it'll be a bit of a procrustean bed
20:19 mircea_popescu fwiw i wouldn't use sub 4kb keys anyway.
20:19 asciilifeform me neither
20:19 mircea_popescu so then.
20:19 asciilifeform but that was merely one example.
20:20 asciilifeform (perfectly legit) question was 'wtf should we give a damn about udp mtu, it's a bore'
20:21 asciilifeform answer is, for the same reason that, after a certain date, rifle calibers were X inch sixteenth lines and not some random contemporary fellow's little finger.
20:22 asciilifeform with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.
↖ ↖ ↖
20:22 asciilifeform can silently drop it if 'foe.'
20:22 asciilifeform without allocating memory.
20:22 asciilifeform if it is not obvious why this is tremendously valuable, try to think about it for a few minutes.
20:23 * asciilifeform will not waste the gentlemens' time by belabouring the point further
20:23 mircea_popescu dude, it will be 5 years before anyone even figures out there's something to attack.
20:24 asciilifeform actually i envision a department hastily assembled, of folks much like myself but underemployed, set to work on it.
20:25 mircea_popescu heh.
20:25 mircea_popescu in 2016.
20:25 mircea_popescu and they'll fail.
20:25 asciilifeform not even usg as such, needed for this. the crapware folks will readily latch on to anything like a solution to what ails them - which proposed apparatus is; and the antivirus folks will immediately proceed to piss out whatever fluids they can muster, against the problem
20:26 asciilifeform if correctly built, apparatus will remain standing. but the notion that no one will see it fit to pour excrement upon the head of the early incarnation - is a mistake.
20:27 mircea_popescu i'd bet you but we can't use bitbet because it doesn't take gavin btc.
20:27 asciilifeform l0l
20:27 artifexd I'm burning up a lot (ok, more than a few) credits on http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/
20:27 assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqRN9J )
20:27 mircea_popescu artifexd now you are on to my secret plan
20:28 asciilifeform artifexd: iirc comments on trilema don't require credits
20:28 artifexd refreshing the page to see new comments does.
20:28 * asciilifeform confesses that he has never purchased a credit on mircea_popescu's site...
20:29 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18116 @ 0.00063644 = 11.5297 BTC [-]
20:29 mircea_popescu artifexd use one more then, i answer't.
20:30 BingoBoingo https://twitter.com/rogerkver/status/552570734481272832
20:30 assbot While forcing me to pay taxes /USEmbassyBbdos tyrants won't allow me to attend /hashtag/CES2015?src=hash, /hashtag/TNABC?src=hash or anything in the US http://t.co/8dl6qpPjUM
20:30 BingoBoingo https://twitter.com/BitcoinEdu/status/552627964228038656
20:30 assbot The Bitstamp booth at CES today. http://t.co/BaqOaml8UL http://t.co/DrgdEVyoZg
20:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: s/relied/relayed ?
20:31 artifexd Oh! That shifts my interpretation somewhat.
20:31 mircea_popescu is this ver's way of saying he can't afford anything bitcoin-related anymore, not even that thing in miami ?
20:31 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aye ty
20:31 mircea_popescu artifexd i guess in retrospect the use of "for" was misguided. chetty warned me, too.
20:32 mircea_popescu but it's for as in, "i am doing in the name of x, ie, for x"
20:32 artifexd So the "Hi there" part could include destination information in addition to the message. Much like irc does now.
20:33 asciilifeform i'd suggest term 'of', and use mathematical notation subkey(ofkey)
20:33 artifexd XFF?
20:35 asciilifeform artifexd: imho the 'hello' should stick to bare minimum - establishing the right of the interlocutor to speak to what is on the other end.
20:36 asciilifeform if successful (he signed nonce with an ephemeral key for which the machine being spoken to possesses a valid primary wot-key signature, or is in fact transmitting a new ephemeral pubkey signed by such a wotkey) - this creates a session.
20:37 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Seems so. Or it means He's basically Shrem'd except exile instead of jail.
20:37 asciilifeform artifexd: i will not belabour the point, i think you will arrive at the correct answers on your own. they will fall into place in your head.
20:37 mircea_popescu qui facit per alium facit per se sort of "for"
20:37 asciilifeform this is one of those problems where it is almost unavoidable.
20:38 mircea_popescu artifexd yes, it could, of course.
20:40 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2200 @ 0.00063644 = 1.4002 BTC [-]
20:45 BingoBoingo 5Is https://hackerone.com/news/pink-panther
20:45 assbot The Tale of the Privacy Pink Panther - HackerOne ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqSX52 )
20:50 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: how do you plan to cook up a transaction dumping your coins that's valid on the gavinchain but not the mirceachain?
20:50 BingoBoingo ben_vulpes: There are ways...
20:51 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23800 @ 0.00063644 = 15.1473 BTC [-]
20:52 ben_vulpes specifics, though, BingoBoingo
20:52 BingoBoingo First step is to double spend such that confirmed coins from address A end up confirmed to a safe depth at different addresses B and C on the different forked chains.
20:52 BingoBoingo B and C both still being addresses under your control
20:52 BingoBoingo From there... party time.
20:52 Apocalyptic that makes sense
20:53 BingoBoingo Getting the coins differently spent safely to different addresses on each chain is the important part.
20:54 asciilifeform artifexd, mircea_popescu, others - http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111242
20:54 assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqTDHH )
20:55 kakobrekla https://twitter.com/rogerkver/status/552087758370775040 < still looking for trouble i see.
20:55 assbot Which bank will have the foresight to give /krakenfx a USD bank account? /Chase /WellsFargo /BofA_News /usbank /Citibank /HSBC_US /hashtag/bitcoin?src=hash
20:56 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes if one block's large and the other small, all i need a tx that's included in the large block but not the small one. then doublespend it on the small one, which will be rejected necessarily by the large block blockchain
20:57 mircea_popescu now i have bitcoin separated in two addresses, one for each chain.
20:57 mircea_popescu the attempt may fail, but the cost to me of this failure is not significant, so i can keep on trying until it succeeds.
20:58 mircea_popescu the only way to guard against it is, obviously,for the "large" chain to maintain 1:1 identity with the "small" one. because you don't just fork bitcoin.,
20:58 Apocalyptic !up hanbot
20:58 ben_vulpes i still fail to see how you're going to make a txn that gets included in the large block chain and not the small block chain.
20:58 hanbot tyvm
20:58 ben_vulpes anyways! i must off to tango lessons.
20:58 hanbot BingoBoingo oh, i just thought i'd give the paragraph mp described a shot
20:58 mircea_popescu (if it were that simple, teh enemies wouldn't be going through all the gymnastics & eating up all the frogs)
20:58 Apocalyptic yw
20:58 artifexd ben_vulpes: You don't. You keep sending money to yourself until it happens.
20:59 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes what do you mean ? it necessarily will occur.
20:59 mircea_popescu since one contains more txn than the other by definition.
20:59 mircea_popescu suppose i make 50k 1btc txn. they don't fit in a 1mn block. they do fit in a 10mb block. what now ?
21:00 BingoBoingo hanbot: Well, the first bullet on the subject missed and you politely loaded the chamber with a second so why not?
21:00 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: the 'turn on your laptop to prove it isn't filled exclusively with trotyl' thing is rather tiresome. esp. since nothing keeps a miscreant from replacing only, e.g., half of the cells in his battery with plastique of similar shape and density.
21:01 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: but even the public 'state of the art' was an israeli phone, successfully delivered to intended decapitee, which functioned as intended for a few minutes and then detonated on command.
21:01 ben_vulpes i've not the mental horsepower to attack this right now. after tango tho.
21:01 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: it presumably looked 'correct' on xray.
21:01 mircea_popescu artifexd i wonder if for some god-forsaken reason the shitgnomes never actually considered this obviousness.
21:02 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Really for the purpose of passing airport security one could likely replace all but the volume of one cell with substance, power on from coin cells.
21:02 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33088 @ 0.00063644 = 21.0585 BTC [-]
21:02 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo soon enough there's going to be a "no half empty batteries" rule then.
21:03 mircea_popescu i'd lobby for that if i were a battery maker.
21:03 asciilifeform neh
21:03 asciilifeform no batteries, period.
21:03 asciilifeform must rent in flight, if using, and re-purchase on other end.
21:03 asciilifeform this will happen shortly prior to the 'naked anaesthetized flights'
21:03 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: Well i imagine sufficiently resourceful turrorist would make a normal looking to X-Ray evil battery pack
21:04 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: sop. israeli phone, etc
21:05 asciilifeform this entire subject remaining a subject even in light of (reasonably well-known) fact of extant airplanes being remotely pwnable - is perplexing.
21:05 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Right. Prolly won't be long before ISIS seizes a medical xray and does some experimenting to catch up tp 5Is on this front
21:05 asciilifeform 'pwnable' isn't even the right word
21:05 asciilifeform they're approximately what ssl is.
21:06 asciilifeform pre-masterkeyed. this was quietly ushered into being shortly post '9/11' and mostly forgotten about in public.
21:06 artifexd asciilifeform, mircea_popescu, et al: http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111243
21:06 assbot [Artifexd] A better ircd [RFC] pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqUqIr )
21:08 asciilifeform artifexd: http://trilema.com/2015/artifexd-a-better-ircd-rfc/#comment-111244
21:08 kakobrekla 502 Bad Gateway
21:08 artifexd O noes!
21:08 Apocalyptic ^
21:08 asciilifeform damn
21:08 artifexd You broke it
21:08 Apocalyptic the page is too successful
21:11 artifexd Anybody have a good name for this project? ircd isn't going to cut it.
21:12 mike_c why? let the other ircd change it's name.
21:12 asciilifeform mike_c: terrible thing to do.
21:12 mike_c just teasing the bitcoin foundation :D
21:12 asciilifeform mike_c: phoundation - deserved the treatment; old warhorse irc - doesn't
21:14 BingoBoingo ArseD?
21:14 asciilifeform artifexd: if you're up for it, we can continue the thread here while trilema is down
21:15 artifexd Sure
21:15 artifexd What'd you say?
21:15 asciilifeform artifexd: the mechanism for doing what ought to be done has a generic name: 'gossip protocol'
21:15 asciilifeform that is, you utter a certain thing, or rather, sequence of things, and wish for said fact to become 'universal knowledge' at some point
21:16 asciilifeform and it is accomplished by people talking to one another: 'have you heard xxxxx?' 'nope, do tell.' or 'sure, heard all about it.'
21:16 asciilifeform bitcoin implements one variant of this.
21:17 asciilifeform i will argue that you will want to, in general, 'hash-chain' all of your public (type 'a' in my last visible comment) messages.
21:18 mircea_popescu it's down ?!
21:18 asciilifeform hash-chain or some variation on that theme is the only way an operator can be certain of possessing an unbroken chain of what a particular key has uttered.
21:19 artifexd Now you're talking about a lot of back and forth instead of the bundle approach.
21:20 artifexd I could see the value in that if maintaining an unbroken history was important.
21:20 asciilifeform if you take the bundle approach, you are suddenly faced with a multitude of very arbitrary decisions re: what ought to be included in bundle.
21:20 asciilifeform thing is, you need a hard-reliable mechanism regardless of what you do, if only on account of having the WoT in this thing.
21:20 asciilifeform so it may as well apply to everything.
21:20 asciilifeform there is no reason to bring 'net splits' into existence again.
21:20 Apocalyptic so is qntra for me
21:21 mircea_popescu well i just responded...
21:21 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: your site is down as seen from my perch
21:21 artifexd If you do the gossip thing then each server needs to maintain a history (of possibly infinite length)
21:21 asciilifeform like bitcoin.
21:21 mircea_popescu http://www.downforeveryoneorjustme.com/trilema.com
21:21 assbot Down For Everyone Or Just Me -> Check if your website is down or up? ... ( http://bit.ly/1AqVgFd )
21:21 mircea_popescu meanwhile...
21:22 artifexd And now we have a blockchain growth problem.
21:22 asciilifeform how is it a problem ?
21:22 mircea_popescu srsly, no blockchain.
21:22 asciilifeform no blockchain. just chain.
21:22 mircea_popescu the messages should be kept around for a short interval (hour ?) while the user can retain them as long as he wants.
21:22 mircea_popescu but basically the bundle should cover the last hour.
21:24 asciilifeform if no chain: malicious node can selectively drop messages.
21:24 Apocalyptic mircea, I get a timeout for both trilema and qntra, looks like we may have been banned, which is surprising because I didn't refresh the page too quickly
21:24 asciilifeform notice you don't have to store the chain permanently
21:24 asciilifeform just rolling window.
21:24 asciilifeform Apocalyptic: same here
21:24 artifexd An hour? Shit. I was thinking 5 seconds.
21:24 mircea_popescu asciilifeform so ?
21:24 artifexd If a bundle is sent every second.
21:25 mircea_popescu artifexd ah that's a point. my 1hour was outer limit.
21:25 asciilifeform a window of 5 seconds will give quite a few dropped messages.
21:26 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8200 @ 0.00063644 = 5.2188 BTC [-]
21:26 mircea_popescu this is likely actually.
21:26 asciilifeform why not allow a node to store as much history as he wishes to expend on disk
21:26 mircea_popescu because not its job.
21:26 artifexd Why? If you're connected when a message comes across the wire, you get it. If not, you don't. Much like irc now.
21:26 asciilifeform and synchronize based on histories of individual pubkeys
21:26 mircea_popescu because it's chat. if someone wants to log it, that's a diff story.
21:27 asciilifeform the distinction between 'log' and 'allow very high-latency chat' is very thin.
21:27 asciilifeform if i'm on a satellite modem, i doubt that one in ten messages of 5-second window will make it through to my node.
21:28 artifexd Sure it would. If you have a connection to another server, it will send you all the messages it gets. Although I imagine some manner of "screw you, you're too slow" code will be needed eventually.
21:28 asciilifeform this apparatus of yours is not merely ircd with new coat of paint. it is a very different animal mathematically, as you lot will soon realize.
21:29 mircea_popescu it's okay for slow nodes to lose messages
21:29 mircea_popescu this is what the definition of "Slow" is.
21:29 mircea_popescu if i were to connect to irc with a 360 baud modem i would similarily lose messages.
21:29 artifexd asciilifeform: What you want sounds very similar to bitmessage, no?
21:30 asciilifeform perhaps root of disagreement is that i originally contemplated something more along the lines of a very fast usenet, rather than potentially slow chat.
21:30 asciilifeform 'store and forward'
21:30 artifexd usenet is pretty damn fast.
21:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it's not really a log-with-chat.
21:30 mircea_popescu it's a chat.,
21:30 asciilifeform the 300 baud modem loses no usenet messages.
21:30 mircea_popescu yes, because they're not signed nor crypted.
21:30 asciilifeform even when they are.
21:31 artifexd The storage requirements for a usenet server are stupid high.
21:31 asciilifeform except in degenerate case, where modem and owner both crumble to dust before the transmission can finish
21:31 asciilifeform through the ravages of time
21:31 mircea_popescu a 360 baud modem loses 99% of usenet messages out of a pipe which puts out 36kbps worth of messages continuously.
21:31 asciilifeform well yes.
21:31 mircea_popescu how you slice the 99% is uninteresting.
21:32 asciilifeform now answer under what circumstances one can accept a loss of even one packet of WoT computation.
21:32 artifexd Side question: How do you quote a previous comment on trilema?
21:32 mircea_popescu <blockquote>
21:33 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that's in the hello message.
21:33 asciilifeform hence atomic operation, aha
21:33 mircea_popescu each server sends its own view, you compile what interests you.
21:33 asciilifeform inescapably one will end up seeing slightly different WoTs, at least on their peripheries, at different times.
21:34 asciilifeform i doubt that this can be avoided entirely
21:34 mircea_popescu necessarioly.
21:34 mircea_popescu thjere is no such thing as "one" wot.
21:34 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.00063432 = 5.7089 BTC [-] {2}
21:34 mircea_popescu for that matter, a "total score" is nonsense predicated on this mistaken view.
21:34 mircea_popescu there is no center wot.
21:34 asciilifeform only if it, as it does presently, lives in just one specially-designated temple
21:34 mircea_popescu right.
21:34 mircea_popescu which is kind-of why the "total score" nonsense is so hard entrenched.
21:34 mircea_popescu the current implementation favours what is fundamewntally an erroneous view of thew wot as "one thing". it is not one thing.
21:34 asciilifeform i've been wishing that folks would let go of it for quite some time.
21:35 asciilifeform !s kyristor
21:35 assbot 14 results for 'kyristor' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=kyristor
21:35 mircea_popescu as assbot's usage over timne has shown
21:35 asciilifeform before i learned of the wot that we now use.
21:35 asciilifeform (*even before)
21:35 asciilifeform the notion of 'trustworthiness' as a scalar is fundamental to scamatrons of all stripes.
↖
21:35 asciilifeform it isn't a scalar.
21:36 asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-11-2014#917896
21:36 assbot Logged on 12-11-2014 01:24:54; asciilifeform: ^ my ancient failed attempt at 'wot.' was to be used with another (never happened) apparatus, 'sollipse,' for running a 'multiverse' of wots.
21:37 BingoBoingo lol at Slate http://www.slate.com/blogs/the_world_/2015/01/06/pegida_marches_xenophobia_is_going_mainstream_in_germany.html
21:37 assbot PEGIDA marches: Xenophobia is going mainstream in Germany. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kk0Df0 )
21:37 artifexd Piss... trilema is 502ing again
21:37 artifexd Which I can only assume means it ate my comment.
21:38 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: http://www.slate.com/blogs/business_insider/2015/01/05/russian_hedge_fund_founder_disappears_with_all_the_firm_s_money.html?wpisrc=obnetwork << another mega-lol from same site
21:38 assbot Russian hedge fund founder disappears with all the firm's money. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kk0GYd )
21:39 mircea_popescu artifexd umm... i see it but not your comment.
21:39 mircea_popescu is this some routing mishmashing or something ?
21:39 * asciilifeform also cannot connect now
21:39 * asciilifeform probably caught in spam/ddos trap
21:39 mircea_popescu a there it is.
21:39 mircea_popescu it... didn't eat your comment lol
21:39 artifexd It did.
21:40 artifexd I refreshed the post page. :)
21:41 mircea_popescu answer't.
21:41 mircea_popescu lettuce continue this convo while asciilifeform feels all left out :D
21:41 asciilifeform l0l
21:42 Apocalyptic how long are the bans typically scheduled for ?
21:42 mircea_popescu depends, from an hour up
21:43 artifexd Ok. The layers are forming in my head.
21:52 BingoBoingo !up ddddddd
21:58 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 'gossipd' << see 'gossip protocols', very interesting subfield in maths.
21:58 mircea_popescu aham
21:58 asciilifeform highly recommended to anyone who took part in or enjoyed reading this thread.
21:58 mircea_popescu anyway, THAT is why not signed messages.
21:59 mircea_popescu perfect deniability, much better than forward secrecy
21:59 mircea_popescu jurov ^
21:59 asciilifeform still need signed hellos
21:59 mircea_popescu since by very definition gestapo can't trust A B C
21:59 mircea_popescu asciilifeform sure, but not the same thing.
22:00 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: complicates your design a bit, as now you have two classes of message
22:00 asciilifeform instead of one
22:00 mircea_popescu how so ?
22:00 asciilifeform (wot operations still need to be signed, as well as 'hello' session negotiations.)
22:01 mircea_popescu no.
22:01 asciilifeform hm?
22:01 mircea_popescu each server maintains his wot ratings, and theyt are sent out as part of hello procedure
22:01 mircea_popescu each server compiles wot list for use of its user from helos received
22:01 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16600 @ 0.00063295 = 10.507 BTC [-]
22:01 * asciilifeform marches off to thinking room to properly think about this.
22:02 asciilifeform and to pet neglected pet
22:12 artifexd Wait. Wut?
22:12 mircea_popescu which part.
22:12 artifexd You specifically don't want messages signed?
22:13 artifexd For deniability?
22:13 mircea_popescu there's no signing in there, is there ?
22:14 artifexd There is not. I took that as an oversight.
22:14 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=05-01-2015#966081 also.
22:14 assbot Logged on 05-01-2015 17:59:47; davout: i was thinking rely on GPG and simply encode a nonce in the message
22:14 mircea_popescu no, it's not an oversight.
22:14 artifexd When a message A for B C comes over the wire, how can I trust that B actually said C?
22:14 mircea_popescu hm ?
22:14 artifexd Maybe A is trustworthy but got the message from D.
22:14 mircea_popescu so ?
22:15 mircea_popescu his job to police his lists.
22:15 artifexd And D is full of shit.
22:16 artifexd What stops server A from inventing messages by B?
22:16 mircea_popescu don't trust people you don't trust and so you won't have to answer unpleasant questions from people whose trust you value.
22:16 mircea_popescu nothing.
22:17 mircea_popescu in fact, for all you know A sends whole different novels to B and C.
22:17 artifexd That seems... less than ideal.
22:17 mircea_popescu why ?
22:17 artifexd Because we are building a new system from the ground up.
22:17 mircea_popescu right.
22:18 mircea_popescu so ?
22:18 BingoBoingo Is anyone (mike_c?) interested in doing a recap of 2014 in Bitcoin finance?
22:18 mircea_popescu good idea that bb.
22:19 artifexd Everyone is already identified by crypto. Why not ensure that messages that say they are from a keyset actually came from the keyset?
22:19 mircea_popescu because it's chat.
22:19 mircea_popescu do you ordinarily sign contracts with people you chat with in the bus ?
22:19 artifexd Kinda
22:20 mircea_popescu well, i don't. i more often have sex with someone in the bus
22:20 mircea_popescu than sign a contract there.
22:20 kakobrekla dont chat with strangers.
22:20 artifexd If by "sign" you mean "have some effing clue who just said that"
22:20 mircea_popescu for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ?
22:20 mircea_popescu i can use it later.
22:20 mircea_popescu artifexd you have a clue : either your friend, or someone who only exists
22:20 mircea_popescu in the sense your friend sayus he does.
22:20 mircea_popescu this "objective existence of user" is a trap in our task here. it doesn' tserve, it hinders.
22:21 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> for that matter, imagine a "No" string signed. what now ? << This is the big.
22:22 artifexd It would be a timestamped "No".
22:22 mircea_popescu moreover, i wish to take this opportunity and link the important point of the "unsheathe your sword". inasmuch as people proceed on the "user objectively exists" and then try to "create anonimity" the unavoidable result is "anonimity is hard lolz".
22:22 mircea_popescu the only entity served by this nonsense is nsa. users don't actually exist, outside of what the parties you trust say.
22:23 mircea_popescu artifexd so if it is.
22:23 BingoBoingo http://dealbook.nytimes.com/2014/12/30/whistle-blower-awards-lure-wrongdoers-looking-to-score/
22:24 artifexd When you and I have a conversation on here (and gribble is around, and you ident to a key), then later you and I have another conversation (and, again, gribble is around and you ident to the same key), then I can trust that I am talking to the same person I was before.
22:24 artifexd Signing messages would provide that same assurance. But automatically.
22:25 mircea_popescu and if i am in your list and you in mine the same is preserved by gossipd.
22:25 artifexd Wanna be somebody else, grab a new key.
22:25 mircea_popescu without a requirement to sign.
22:25 mircea_popescu however, if you only know asciilifeform and he;'s relying my chat,
22:25 mircea_popescu for all practical purposes i am his 3rd split personality, a figment of his rich imagination.
22:25 artifexd Exactly
22:26 mircea_popescu this is ideal.
22:26 asciilifeform let's see if i misunderstood something.
22:26 asciilifeform in mircea_popescu's scheme, my wot-graph exists as a bitstring that my particular node will disgorge if asked?
22:26 mircea_popescu incidentally, the evolution of this dev session clearly proves the superiority of chat over say bbs, of which forums and trilema comments are implementations.
22:26 asciilifeform rather than permanent blockchain-style world record
22:26 mircea_popescu asciilifeform well, disgorge on handshake but yea
22:27 asciilifeform well then:
22:27 asciilifeform let's imagine the good ship Mircea, a four-reactored former soviet nuke sub;
22:27 asciilifeform a martian death ray takes out a satellite. the ship is now within five day's steam of the next chance for net connection
22:27 mircea_popescu lol. the actual ship mircea is an old barque. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mircea_(ship)
22:27 assbot Mircea (ship) - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1HJOI85 )
22:27 asciilifeform during these five days, how many sc4mz0rs will find themselves temporarily rehabilitated ?
22:28 asciilifeform barque << haha yes, knew this
22:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you still have an old list.
22:28 asciilifeform worse yet, if the boat were to perish in honourable combat, with all hands aboard, the global state of wot shall return to as if he and the crew had never lived ?
22:28 asciilifeform aye i have an old list. but that's quite ad-hoc.
22:28 mircea_popescu which ius no different from the current situation
22:28 asciilifeform and i can't sign it with a fresh mircea-nonce.
22:28 asciilifeform because i am me and not him
22:28 mircea_popescu if i die tomorrow who will maintain my wot ?
22:28 mircea_popescu uhhh... nobody.
22:29 asciilifeform but it stays around as a statue, for so long as nanotube remains ungassed
22:29 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no, but you can sign it with yours, if you wish. which correctly reflects the situation. "here are the words of great X i attest to"
22:29 asciilifeform which in this one respect is an arguable improvement over the hypothetical apparatus
22:29 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: aha!
22:29 mircea_popescu i do not see it.
22:29 mircea_popescu how do you know it's not been diddled ?
22:29 asciilifeform that is an ad-hoc, bug-ridden reimplementation of the blockchain!
22:29 mircea_popescu you'd have to ask an elder or two anyway.
22:29 asciilifeform to borrow a greenspunish,
22:29 asciilifeform *greenspunism
22:30 asciilifeform 'those who will not' xxx 'are doomed to' yyy 'it'
22:30 mircea_popescu inasmuch as my old wot is still signed with my old key, and you have a copy
22:30 mircea_popescu it's as good as current thing, except better cuz signed.
22:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: and then we get medieval-style rediscoveries of 'the latter gospel of mircea'
22:30 asciilifeform why not cut straight to chase.
22:31 mircea_popescu very theoretical possibility, as "the last words" are hard to fake online.
22:31 asciilifeform not so much a concern re: fakes, but losses.
22:31 mircea_popescu for all you know some validly signed material from 2012 satoshi emerges tomorrow. tis what it is.
22:32 mircea_popescu for all you know it can even came in the shape of regular bitcoin txn.
22:32 asciilifeform and say my sub, a considerably poorer vessel, only has connection when on equator. say, one day in 60, in sight of particular satellite.
22:32 mircea_popescu will be honored once known. ignored meanwhiule.
22:32 asciilifeform under the contemplated scheme, i may as well not bother to use wot then
22:32 asciilifeform or would have to station it shore-side somehow
22:33 mircea_popescu well, if you can only net once in 2 months you can only net once in 2 months.
22:33 mircea_popescu some of your stuff will be out of date.
22:33 asciilifeform we again arrive at a system of ad-hoc, bug-ridden relays and informal mirrors
22:33 mircea_popescu i still dun see it.
22:33 mircea_popescu but anyway, relays are strength not weakness here.
22:33 asciilifeform when part of mechanism, by spec and by reliable practice sans hand-holding
22:34 asciilifeform think of the advantage bitcoin has over hawala.
22:34 asciilifeform hawala is more or less the same, but implemented in the informal, mouth-to-ear way contemplated above.
22:35 asciilifeform ('the same' topologically! not mechanically, clearly)
22:35 mircea_popescu what's adequate for moving currency is not adequate for moving words.
22:36 asciilifeform wot, i'd say, falls somewhere between (or floating far in the state-space) from currency or mere words
22:36 mircea_popescu i still can't possibly see what flaw you perceive with the wot part of gossipd
22:36 artifexd So what is the value of this vice a private stock ircd with a gribble?
22:37 asciilifeform the fact that my wot actions disappear when my node loses net
22:37 asciilifeform i think it is ludicrous.
22:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform they don't dood. how do they disappear ?
22:37 asciilifeform disappear until i get plugged back in
22:37 mircea_popescu artifexd thgat it has no central servers, for one.
22:37 asciilifeform which perhaps never, because atomic bomb fell on me.
22:37 mircea_popescu asciilifeform anyone who saw the old ones has a copy!
22:37 mircea_popescu this is just like it is now! everything!
22:37 asciilifeform and what can they do with this copy?
22:38 asciilifeform consult it while forming own wot ratings, informally?
22:38 mircea_popescu anything ? they're signed by you. they're, until anyone hears better, your position.
22:38 asciilifeform by what mechanism are they kept around in the world ?
22:38 asciilifeform someone manually copied it to a text file at some point ?
22:38 mircea_popescu by the same mechanism anything of anyone's kept around in the world : your friends have copies.
22:38 mircea_popescu an' shall remember you.
22:39 mircea_popescu chat is not an instrument to permanence. it's an instrument to chat.
22:39 mircea_popescu permanence is to be ensured by other means
22:39 asciilifeform chat - sure
22:39 asciilifeform wot ??
22:39 mircea_popescu (this doesn't replace notarybot, for instance)
22:39 asciilifeform if wot ratings were archived - it could.
22:39 mircea_popescu anyone can archive them!
22:39 mircea_popescu yourself included.
22:40 asciilifeform can != will reliably
22:40 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17700 @ 0.00063127 = 11.1735 BTC [-] {2}
22:40 mircea_popescu i don't think you will find the computerized means to ensure immutability.
22:40 asciilifeform let's ask - how many folks reading this have archived, e.g., the works of fermat ?
22:40 mircea_popescu but for as long as anyone gives a shit, they'll be there.
22:40 asciilifeform dead tree counts
22:41 asciilifeform probably quite a few folks. but the thing that distinguishes fermat from wot is that wot needs to be at least quasi-'hot' to really work as intended, imho.
22:41 asciilifeform a copy of my wotgraph kept around as a message in a bottle under nitrogen in my brother's house, say, will not really carry out its function as a live reflection of my wot-will.
22:41 asciilifeform in real time.
22:42 mircea_popescu because why not ?
22:42 asciilifeform because it is in a bottle.
22:42 mircea_popescu things change,you know. mayhap people you used to trust are nopw scammers
22:42 mircea_popescu present wot would benefit immensely from some dead hand cleanning as it is.
22:43 asciilifeform this is actually an ancient debate in the maths-of-p2p-nets world
22:43 mircea_popescu i really do not wish to hear how much some long gone loser trusts whatever long gone scammer.
22:43 asciilifeform whether father time should forget
22:43 asciilifeform and if so, how.
22:43 mircea_popescu exactly like indicated. will exists for as long as the hand lives to enforce it
22:43 mircea_popescu once that's gone... main morte.
22:43 mircea_popescu leave the earth to better, later men.
22:44 asciilifeform there are obvious wins to this approach. but opens the question of what, e.g., my brother, is to do with my wotgraph once my ship goes down.
22:44 mircea_popescu whatever he wants.
22:44 mircea_popescu we knowthis because he is here. you, are not.
22:44 asciilifeform assuming he wishes it to march on
22:44 asciilifeform is he to host it on an 'obelisk' node which does nothing else but relay it ?
22:45 mircea_popescu could, easily.
22:45 asciilifeform or adjust his own graph-weights? (that would somewhat defeat the purpose of a wot, loses information)
22:45 mircea_popescu also could, also easily.
22:45 mircea_popescu what information was lost ?
22:45 mircea_popescu the wot reflects wqhat things ARE. not what they were.
22:45 mircea_popescu that's why if right now i change a rating, the old one's gone.
22:46 asciilifeform where the change propagates.
22:46 asciilifeform right now this seems far easier than it will turn out to be on adult apparatus.
22:46 mircea_popescu aha ?
22:47 asciilifeform the 'dynamicity' of new-wot (vs classical wot) creates some very strong incentives for hooligans of all stripes
22:47 asciilifeform to attempt to disrupt signal, locate mirrors
22:47 mircea_popescu i still don't see there's a difference.
22:47 asciilifeform to create temporary warps in the fabric of wot.
22:48 mircea_popescu are you sure those aren't simply the resuilts of "no more central server" ?
22:48 asciilifeform well, in a sense they are; but we're really surrendering to entropy here far more than, imho, is necessary
22:48 mircea_popescu entropy is to be embraced. it's no surender when you manage to flow with it.
22:49 asciilifeform i won't argue that wot moves ought to be retained for all eternity; but will say that some automatic caching is necessary
22:49 mircea_popescu the less you figh entropy while still doing your job, the longer you'll live.
22:49 asciilifeform because things that are tedious and must be done manually, tend to not get done.
22:49 mircea_popescu so anyone's free to implement all the caching one wants.
22:50 asciilifeform let's say that a fair number of node operators wish to cache. now they are stuck retaining (and transmitting, regularly!) a vast number of duplicate copies of many wotgraphs
22:50 mircea_popescu why ?
22:50 mircea_popescu they can cache whichever way they wish/
22:50 asciilifeform not so many ways to choose from if result is to behave functionally live
22:50 asciilifeform (i.e., just as their own live wotgraph behaves)
22:51 asciilifeform in the end, you end up with a poor reimplementation of 'blockchain' anyway
22:51 mircea_popescu yes stan, if you wish to have a blockchain you will end up having to implement one.
22:51 mircea_popescu o.O
22:51 asciilifeform i will let this point prove itself, but was willing to argue for it to possibly save mircea_popescu and artifexd some unnecessary sweat
22:53 artifexd I still haven't processed the wot part of the spec. I'm still trying to understand why you wouldn't sign the messages. It seems to be asking for evil actors.
22:53 asciilifeform http://pastebin.com/w5VYjyBu << possibly very relevant
22:53 assbot THE PETRIFIED WORLD (Robert Sheckley) - Pastebin.com ... ( http://bit.ly/1BxiUBn )
22:54 asciilifeform (1971 story)
22:54 artifexd Other than the argument that a signed "no" could be used for something malicious. Uh... It just means that you said no. It doesn't imply what you said no in response to. Just that you said no.
22:55 asciilifeform this is why i suggested chaining.
22:55 asciilifeform prevents a future forged conversation stitched out of words you have uttered.
22:56 asciilifeform (of signed gibblets, anyway)
22:56 artifexd millisecond timestamps and a counter would do that too.
22:57 mircea_popescu artifexd explain why you WOULD sign them.
22:57 asciilifeform artifexd: next thing you know we're doing lamport clocks.
22:57 artifexd Actually, as fast as I type single second resolution timestamps would be enough.
22:57 mircea_popescu and yes, unixtime timestamps.
22:57 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11344 @ 0.00062984 = 7.1449 BTC [-]
22:57 artifexd Why would I sign messages? Why would I appreciate messages that I receive to be signed?
22:58 mircea_popescu why would you require chat lines be signed.
22:58 mircea_popescu i mean, i understand, "it's how it's done". we're here because the current paradigm is - quite fundamentally - broken.
22:58 artifexd Simple: I would sign all my messages so that if you told me that I said something that wasn't signed, I could legitimately call bullshit.
22:59 mircea_popescu you can call bullshit in the gossipd as well.
22:59 mircea_popescu that's provided.
22:59 asciilifeform let's put it this way - if i wish for my words to successfully relay beyond my own node, i have to sign them with an ephemeral key
22:59 mircea_popescu if you wish to elevate some chat to a contract, you directly can do that too.
22:59 mircea_popescu by signign it.
22:59 asciilifeform how is anything originating in my machine to leave my node without being signed ?
22:59 artifexd I would appreciate signed messages so that I could have some moderate assurance that bob is actually bob and not some asshole evil server.
23:00 mircea_popescu artifexd you have SOME assurance.
23:00 mircea_popescu if you know bob, this is cryptographic.
23:00 mircea_popescu if you do not know bob, that assurance is meaningless anyway.
23:00 asciilifeform ^ not entirely
23:00 artifexd I would have to have a direct connection to bob in order to believe anything with his fingerprint.
23:01 asciilifeform you can still know that bob(today) is (or is not) same as bob(next month)
23:01 mircea_popescu right.
23:01 mircea_popescu which is EXACTLY as it is anyway
23:01 asciilifeform not necessarily same person, but same key (e.g., is same bourbaki)
23:01 mircea_popescu asciilifeform herp.
23:01 mircea_popescu so you can still know... nothing much.
23:01 asciilifeform arguing that this can be useful information
23:01 artifexd Part of the trust is that you can handle a key.
23:01 asciilifeform in some truly perverse cases
23:01 mircea_popescu anything can be useful information.
23:02 mircea_popescu artifexd if you don't know bob, for all you know he's lying to you.
23:02 mircea_popescu ANYWAY.
23:02 mircea_popescu with or without a key. there is no mechanical solution to trust
23:02 mircea_popescu just like there are no mechanically generated random numbers.
23:02 * asciilifeform did not imagine that there were.
23:02 mircea_popescu i am aware the inept consensus today is to think that technology can solve trust.
23:02 artifexd Trust doesn't mean that I take bob's word as gospel.
23:02 mircea_popescu the reason this is even specced is to provide some sanity while everyone wastes their life in that ai quest.
23:03 asciilifeform 'trust' is probably a word that will have to be retired, like phlogiston.
23:03 artifexd Trust in this case means that, as asciilifeform said, bob(today) is bob(next month)
23:03 asciilifeform nooo
23:03 asciilifeform trust is simply an obsolete, pre-scientific word.
↖
23:04 artifexd I mean as in trust the message
23:04 asciilifeform please don't put it on life support, it needs to die
23:04 mircea_popescu artifexd hardly if that.
23:04 mircea_popescu for all you know bob is part of a 500 key ring operated by 5k monkeys.
23:04 artifexd signed messages allow someone to build an identity
23:04 mircea_popescu sure, they do.
23:05 mircea_popescu but more's the point : signed messages allow the world to build an adversative identity of someone.
23:05 mircea_popescu this is pointedly against the purpose of chat.
23:05 artifexd As you have preached in the past, the identity built over time, secured by wot, has value.
23:05 artifexd Take away the ability to build an identity and what's left?
23:06 mircea_popescu it does, and that's exactly what;s happening, in the proper model. people chat. on that chat they build contracts. their contract history is fixed in a wot.
23:06 mircea_popescu there's a great progression at work there.
23:06 artifexd The key in the wot has no relation AT ALL to the message I just received with a fingerprint.
23:06 mircea_popescu such ability is not taken away.
23:06 artifexd Could be him. Could not. Who knows.
23:06 mircea_popescu it does, if the sender is in your list.
23:06 mircea_popescu it does not, if he is not.
23:06 mircea_popescu in the case at hand, i'd know you are you, but i wouldn't know dddddd is anyone in particular.
23:06 mircea_popescu this is correct.
23:07 mircea_popescu because in point of fact ddddd is noone in particular.
23:07 mircea_popescu they even say this, the various random guys the wind blows in. "who are you ?" "nobody in particular".
23:08 thestringpuller !s gribble
23:08 assbot 15680 results for 'gribble' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=gribble
23:08 artifexd How do you imagine bootstrapping this thing?
23:08 artifexd Do we get in here, ident, and pass around ip addresses?
23:09 artifexd Is that the start?
23:09 mircea_popescu pretty much
23:09 mircea_popescu you know, just like "up me please" but not centrally maintained.
23:10 mircea_popescu just ask your friends.
23:10 thestringpuller mircea_popescu: what would the result of someone forking the WoT be?
23:10 mircea_popescu a wot fork ?
23:10 thestringpuller yah
23:10 mircea_popescu right.
23:10 thestringpuller altgribble becomes hitler and makes his own db clones from nanotubes
23:11 thestringpuller some "people" start using it
23:11 thestringpuller but nanotube never comes back
23:11 mircea_popescu what's wrong with using an alt wot ?
23:11 thestringpuller or comes back months later (super worst case)
23:11 thestringpuller that's my question
23:11 mircea_popescu if you trust whoever maintains it... go ahead.
23:11 mircea_popescu i have nfi who even runs altgribble. who is it ?
23:11 thestringpuller well altgribble was generatlized example
23:11 artifexd After the thing is up and running for 6 months. How does some insightful dude off the street get in? Look for a public (and thus completely untrusted) access ircd that will let him connect and hope to build an identity to the point that you say "hey insightful_dude_from_the_street", what's your ip address? I'll let you connect to me because you say useful
23:11 artifexd shit"?
23:12 thestringpuller mexican_gribble etc
23:12 mircea_popescu artifexd either that, or otherwise getting into a relationship with one of the people in
23:12 mircea_popescu how does one get into l1 atm ?
23:12 mircea_popescu l2*
23:13 mircea_popescu how did lampelina come in ? kako added her to his node and said "hey, lampelina is this hot blondy I met in a bar."
23:14 mircea_popescu if she starts doing evil shit like forwarding messages from obama, it'll look like obama: hey dudes, i smoke the c0k! to us,
23:14 artifexd You have to beg for a chance to demonstrate the ability to be interesting before you get a chance to get judged.
23:14 mircea_popescu but it'll look like obama[via lampelina] to kako. who can then go gtfo wtf you smokin beich ?!
23:15 mircea_popescu artifexd you gotta get an up before you can voice. eh ?
23:15 kakobrekla actually snatched from irc not a bar and our gfs make bad examples for this.
23:15 artifexd Yeah.
23:16 mircea_popescu kakobrekla sorry
23:16 artifexd Fuck. What are we discussing.... Oh yeah. Why automatically adding any type of verification to a message is bad.
23:16 mircea_popescu no.
23:16 thestringpuller hanbot: nice qntra submission
23:16 artifexd No?
23:16 mircea_popescu we were discussing why it is good, and it turns out it isn't particularly, and so parsimony dictates it stays out.
23:18 kakobrekla no sorry needed, its just that i dont put my penis into everyone that i would like to irc with.
23:18 artifexd Preventing some douche from Bumfuck, Idaho from impersonating your hard built identity "isn't particularly good"?
23:18 mircea_popescu artifexd this prevention is guaranteed by design as is.
23:19 mircea_popescu he can only impersonate you to folk that don't know you.
23:19 artifexd He can only impersonate me to people who don't have an absolutely direct connection to me.
23:19 mircea_popescu or care to get one or know how.
23:19 mircea_popescu technically, anyone can make a gpg key and name it Mircea Popescu
23:20 mircea_popescu so what if it's the wrong numbers ?
23:20 artifexd That's why the fingerprint and the alias, right? Let the computer notice that the numbers don't match the the numbers that I identify as mircea.
23:21 mircea_popescu for that matter, if we keep the A B C D ; X Y Z K convention, then A can impersonate K to Y only provided B isn't linked to C that is linked to D.
23:21 mircea_popescu artifexd the computer wouldn't know.
23:21 mircea_popescu if i get a fake key of you and sign it... it's good as far as the computer is concerned.
23:21 artifexd Huh? Of course it would.
23:21 mircea_popescu nope.
23:22 mircea_popescu computer only finds through a direct connection.
23:22 artifexd I have a fingerprint. Or a public key. I give that fingerprint or key a name. Anything not that key or fingerprint won't match to the name.
23:22 mircea_popescu according to whom ?
23:23 mircea_popescu asciilifeform lives in a submarine and never connects to you or your friends. i give him my own version of the "Artifex" key. he signs it.
23:23 mircea_popescu bam.
23:23 artifexd What does that have to do with anything>?
23:23 mircea_popescu everything ?
23:24 mircea_popescu it's exactly the scenario you're proposing.
23:24 artifexd Nothing I, as artifexd with my key, say will ever show up as said by the same entity as whatever you say with your artifex key.
23:24 mircea_popescu kakobrekla you know on reflection i'm the other way around ? i wouldn't irc with anyone i put my penis into
23:25 mircea_popescu artifexd that's entirely up to me.
23:25 kakobrekla yeah but you are just weird like that.
23:25 mircea_popescu s/anyone/everyone
23:25 artifexd Sure. If you have two keys in your wot and you want to give them both the same name. Knock yourself out.
23:26 artifexd But *you* have to make the choice to be confusing.
23:26 asciilifeform here's an observation:
23:26 artifexd The system would, without your interference, label the things I say and the things your artifex say as said by seperate entities.
23:26 asciilifeform i am not presently authenticated via 'gribble'
23:26 mircea_popescu artifexd dubious at best.
23:27 asciilifeform how many of the folks present are ready to believe that this 'asciilifeform' is the same animal they are accustomed to enduring the company of in #b-a ?
23:27 asciilifeform and why?
23:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i can tell, you sound just like him.
23:27 asciilifeform well sure.
23:27 asciilifeform but this is an 'informal bug-ridden implementation' of message signing.
23:27 mircea_popescu what, you just bathed in the same bath twice ?
23:27 asciilifeform when i grunt on the impalement pole, i will probably not be able to deny these words either, to the inquisitor, for the same reason
23:27 asciilifeform 'you sound just like him!'
23:27 artifexd dubious? huh? how? the maths are the maths.
23:28 asciilifeform hence the 'adverse identity' thing
23:28 asciilifeform even if we have no sigs
23:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i think you misrepresent the importance of this. currently, I can tell. *I*. Because i'm me, specifically. if you signed, so could preet.
23:28 mircea_popescu you do not wish to make preet any gifts.
23:28 asciilifeform sigs are pure win, for a creature like myself, just about everything that comes out of my mouth is 'signed' enough for inquisitor!
23:28 asciilifeform why not sign for friends?
23:28 mircea_popescu which is why this is an ircd fork rather than whatever, just apt-get it.
23:28 mircea_popescu there is no such thing as "sign for friends" outside of the model detailed in my spec.
23:28 mircea_popescu that's what that is. "signed, but for friends only"
23:29 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.00079058 = 1.5812 BTC [-] {5}
23:29 asciilifeform the only possible solution to preet signing as asciilifeform, or mircea_popescu, or whoever, is to pull the pin when he comes uninvited.
23:29 mircea_popescu mno.
23:29 mircea_popescu consider a bunch of chatlogs from gossipd presented in court.
23:29 mircea_popescu "and then you said so and so" "um how you know this ?" "from node C" "well it lied to you"
23:30 mircea_popescu "no it didn't!!1" "case dismissed" "but yur honor!!1"
23:30 asciilifeform imho it is far from a sure thing that this will so much as add one drop of sweat to a usg inquisitor's work
23:30 artifexd Your argument is that you WANT deniability?
23:30 mircea_popescu artifexd my argument is that deniability must be baked in or not had.
23:30 mircea_popescu and for chat it must be had. and so... it must be baked in.
23:31 artifexd Hmmm.... this is not the project that I thought it was.
23:31 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: there is another way to bake it in.
23:31 BingoBoingo Even preet loses cases
23:31 mircea_popescu artifexd it isn't ?
23:31 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: consider: a subclass of private message where you ask a friend to pass along, to the 'room', some words.
23:31 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aha ?
23:31 asciilifeform explicitly proclaimed as 'not his own'
23:32 asciilifeform the ears - can choose to believe, or not, naturally
23:32 asciilifeform but this is inescapable
23:32 mircea_popescu i don't follow.
23:33 asciilifeform say mircea_popescu wishes to deniably utter the words 'brezhnev sucks'. he then asks me to utter, 'my friend, who wishes to stay unmarked, wishes to inform the ladies and gentlemen of this network that brezhnev sucks'
23:33 asciilifeform we thus have a degree of deniability, about the same as in the case of no messages carrying signatures
23:33 mircea_popescu artifexd suppose you don't reg your name, and someone comes in as artifexd and says things. should you be forced somehow to say if this is the case or not ?
23:33 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i do not wish to stay unmarked.
23:33 asciilifeform (contrieved example)
23:33 mircea_popescu and i don't want "a degree" of deniability.
23:34 asciilifeform as i reckon, same degree as the unsigned-message scenario
23:34 mircea_popescu i want exactly what chat is : absolute deniability to the entire world, save your friends.
23:34 mircea_popescu which is exactly how speech has functioned, since the dawn of time, to create what is known as the free world.
23:34 asciilifeform 'absolutes' are tricky.
23:34 mircea_popescu high time computers conform.
23:34 mircea_popescu not with the spec as given, imo.
23:35 asciilifeform let's work out, using spec as given in mircea_popescu's article: what does an inquisitor know about a particular utterance
23:35 asciilifeform if he were to put a node in his pocket
23:35 asciilifeform or a series of nodes
23:35 mircea_popescu okay.
23:36 asciilifeform to how many possible pubkeys (and presumably, but not automagically, people) can he narrow down the 'brezhnev sucks' ?
23:36 asciilifeform (typically)
23:36 mircea_popescu i dun see how that'd be answered.
23:36 mircea_popescu but i also have little interest in fighting the narrowing down. that's not really a good use of time.
23:37 asciilifeform that's what 'deniability' means, unless i catastrophically misunderstand the concept
23:37 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35000 @ 0.00062617 = 21.916 BTC [-] {2}
23:37 mircea_popescu well, not how i understand it at any rate.
23:37 mircea_popescu deniability is "you X" "no."
23:37 * asciilifeform is transported to grade school mentally
23:38 mircea_popescu as far as it's in the form "either you or A X" the only answer is "i don't care."
23:38 asciilifeform teacher: 'it was one of you boys'
23:38 mircea_popescu "get something substantial and bother me again"
23:39 artifexd How many connections to other servers do you imagine that you will have? You as in you mircea_popescu.
23:39 artifexd 10? 60? 2000?
23:39 artifexd 1?
23:39 * asciilifeform gets a distinct impression that mircea_popescu is still thinking of the adversary as being bound by laws, courts, procedures of evidence-gathering.
23:39 mircea_popescu artifexd anywhere between a few dozen and a few thousands.
23:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i am not thinking of an adversary. i am designing things correctly.
23:40 * asciilifeform rather thinks that this is a military matter, where adversary can afford to ransack and search 100 houses but not 100,000, and hence his gathering bits of info - matters
↖
23:40 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that's a subplot i dun wanna enter into now - this is complex enough as it is - but suffice to say i am persuaded such situations are thermodynamiocally bound to narrow timespaces.
23:40 * asciilifeform would much like to hear more about this later
23:41 mircea_popescu ie, the police state only exists now and again, when the state of technology is poor enough.
23:41 asciilifeform naggum had a piece where he confessed to thinking of 'open source' as a weapon, purpose-built for the destruction of a particular evil (microshit)
↖
23:42 asciilifeform that will have to be re-shaped into something quite else (his words) when enemy is dead
23:42 mircea_popescu artifexd a 1mbps connection, which is reasonably common in households, should be able to support maybe a few hundred connections.
23:42 mircea_popescu then again, the number of people people know is, from memory 1-200.
23:42 mircea_popescu admitting everyone's awake at the same time.
23:42 * asciilifeform still can't escape the feeling that hypothetical apparatus is a weapon, at least for the time being, that must be sharp enough to penetrate a particular tough grizzly hide if it is to carry on to being whatever it was meant to be...
23:43 mircea_popescu and admitting everyone known is known to the same, high degree to warrant a connection.
23:43 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it's merely meant to put chat on a sane footing.
23:43 mircea_popescu since we're fixing ircd, might as well actually do it.
23:44 asciilifeform at the very least, one ought to have the option of (unobtrusively!) signing every line
23:44 asciilifeform i am quite ready to ephemeralkey-sign every line i have uttered in #b-a.
23:44 mircea_popescu i don;'t see what in the spec would prevent anyone from so doing.
23:44 asciilifeform in no small part because i cannot really picture my impalement or reprieve as hinging on attribution of what i've said
23:44 artifexd I would think that instead of a list of ip addresses you would have a list of pubkeys and each pubkey has one (or more) ip addresses assigned to it. When you start up gossipd, it calls out to all the ip addresses in the lists and says "I'm bob, proven by this signature. Prove you are alice, with cryptoproof". If the answering box responds appropriately,
↖
23:44 artifexd cool. Keep the connection. If not, dump it.
23:45 asciilifeform why is it necessary to involve ip addresses ?
23:45 mircea_popescu asciilifeform gotta route packets somehow.
23:45 mircea_popescu artifexd this could also work, as a handshakey sort of thing, sure.
23:45 artifexd As a currently running gossipd, if I get a connection request with "I'm bob. Here's proof", then I accept the connection and add that ip address to my list for that key. (For later connecting to him)
23:45 asciilifeform let's say i communicate over courier.
23:46 asciilifeform what is my 'ip address' then ?
23:46 mircea_popescu spec was simpler on the assumption that since the helo package is keyed to the supposed key of the server, there's no need to challenge
23:46 mircea_popescu if hje can decrypt it's him alright.
23:46 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19498 @ 0.00061581 = 12.0071 BTC [-]
23:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it touches the network somewhere.
23:47 artifexd Sure. Then the handshake doesn't go both ways, but the information shared is the same. I know you have the key you say you have. You know I have the key I say I have.
23:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: when i sign my 'hello' i will have no idea where it will enter the network.
23:47 artifexd I add the ip address to the key so when I start up, I have a place (or places) to look for you.
23:47 asciilifeform it is quite impossible to sign your ip address if you communicate via courier who may stop at one of sixteen ports.
23:48 artifexd asciilifeform: You have to have some way of receiving return messages, right?
23:48 asciilifeform not necessarily
23:48 asciilifeform it could be my final message as boat goes down.
23:48 mircea_popescu asciilifeform then put it in a pastebin
23:48 asciilifeform sent - in bottle.
23:48 mircea_popescu and someone will link it.
23:48 asciilifeform out of band?
23:48 mircea_popescu sure.
23:49 asciilifeform why is this necessary?
23:49 mircea_popescu cause you're tryin to shoehorn nonchat uses of a chat network.
23:49 mircea_popescu so you're going to have to carry the shoe horn yourself.
23:49 asciilifeform by way of a considerably simpler design
23:49 asciilifeform (unitary hello+signature packet)
23:50 artifexd Sure. I have no issue with that.
23:50 mircea_popescu uh.
23:50 mircea_popescu the helo as it is contains some signed material.
23:50 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10500 @ 0.00064399 = 6.7619 BTC [+] {2}
23:50 mircea_popescu what would you sign ?
23:50 * asciilifeform will, likely, happily play with whatever apparatus you folks come up with, but wishes that the choice be an informed one on the part of the implementers, rather than happenstance.
23:51 mircea_popescu o look, 1k lines by 4 am. ben_vulpes will so much love this.
23:51 artifexd Sign whatever you want. As long as the timestamp is recent.
23:51 * mircea_popescu waves.
23:52 mircea_popescu artifexd so how is it different from the project you thouight it was ?
23:52 asciilifeform artifexd: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-01-2015#967274 << basic summary of the thing i was mainly on about.
23:52 assbot Logged on 07-01-2015 01:22:05; asciilifeform: with udp, you can make the 'friend or foe?' decision upon receipt of a single (!) packet.
23:52 artifexd I wasn't imagining so many direct connections.
23:53 mircea_popescu artifexd well, dunbar's number as a general rule.
23:53 artifexd I had imagined few connections, more routing.
23:53 mircea_popescu should fit on consumer box.
23:53 mircea_popescu if anyone runs a mega node, his hardware is his problem
23:54 artifexd I had imagined #b-a but where everyone is ident'd all the time. No impersonating anyone else is remotely possible.
23:54 mircea_popescu this would fit, if you cared to make it fit
23:54 mircea_popescu currently therte's 140 people here.
23:54 * asciilifeform also formed this impression.
23:55 mircea_popescu so... yes.
23:55 artifexd I start up my little process, it makes a connection to one or eight other people and it just works through the magic of maths.
23:55 mircea_popescu nah. too easy to attack that graph.
23:55 asciilifeform who among those present, other than mircea_popescu, wishes to be impersonateable (deniable) by default ?
23:55 artifexd Not I
23:55 asciilifeform not 'democratizing', just probing waters
23:55 mircea_popescu what's the big deal ?
23:56 mircea_popescu i am impersonated all the time, on all sorts of venues.
23:56 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: and you like it ?
23:56 mircea_popescu i have enough experience with it to know it does \exactly nothing.
23:56 asciilifeform i, for one, would much prefer to have there be not the slightest chance that a fuckwit claiming to speak as me, but sans my key, can be believed
23:57 artifexd I think you're accused of being other people more often than you are impersonated.
23:57 mircea_popescu asciilifeform believed is one thing.
23:57 mircea_popescu artifexd this is possible lol. but also a large number.
23:57 artifexd asciilifeform: That is my desire as well
23:57 mircea_popescu it won't be believed (meaningfully).
23:57 asciilifeform will be believed by sufficiently many otherwise-clueful folks
23:57 mircea_popescu what people who have no clue believe resting squarely outside not of your control, but THIS WORLD.
23:57 asciilifeform because signatures are so rare.
23:58 mircea_popescu perhaps this is what irks, such a clear statement of that inconvenient (but nevertheless true) fact
23:58 asciilifeform if signatures were expected, impersonation would be strictly a preet-stole-key-and-i-didnt-pull-pin-in-time matter.
23:58 mircea_popescu like in the case of rg ?
23:58 artifexd What is "preet"?
23:58 mircea_popescu this is an illusion.
23:58 asciilifeform artifexd: an infamous judge where i live
23:58 asciilifeform artifexd: 'kangaroo court'
23:59 asciilifeform artifexd: he specializes in high-profile show trials. quite like roland freisler (top judge in 3rd reich)
23:59 mircea_popescu artifexd the roland freisler of our times, preet bharara. crown's prosecutor for southern ny / rico conspiracy lynchpin.
23:59 artifexd ok
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