#trilema | 2018-11-01

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trilema - 1026d

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01:00	auctionbot	Sell order # 1004 has ENDED: 9.5k wFF q0 SOLD to mod6 for 1.5bn ecu. Attn: mircea_popescu
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		~ 4 hours 33 minutes ~
05:34	deedbot	http://mocky.org/Signs-and-Wonders-Herald-My-Arrival/ << Mocky.org - Signs and Wonders Herald My Arrival
05:36	Mocky	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-01#1868244 thx, fixed
05:36	a111	Logged on 2018-11-01 03:23 mircea_popescu: Mocky pedistrian. << pede.
05:42	Mocky	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-11#1860606 << btw mystery solved, once I discovered my window opens: https://imgur.com/a/s8q4SHE
05:42	a111	Logged on 2018-10-11 13:47 diana_coman: was it the time of day/light that made that "my view" picture so sandy-looking?
05:43	Mocky	orange tint that my eyes seemingly adjusted for
05:46	diana_coman	lol!
		~ 2 hours 36 minutes ~
08:22	deedbot	http://mocky.org/Souq-Waqif/ << Mocky.org - Souq Waqif
		~ 1 hours 49 minutes ~
10:12	mod6	mornin'
10:12	asciilifeform	ohai mod6
10:12	BingoBoingo	Mornin'
10:13	BingoBoingo	Reading the Mocky blog, I do not think I can survive the local sun exposure. Not without locals that make themselves available for oppression more readily
10:13	mod6	!!pay mircea_popescu 1.50000001
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10:13	deedbot	Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/4Eonh/?raw=true
10:16	mod6	!!v 2BB04EA206BDE7D139C9C3E24DE128B9E1FE22A7DECB81CFE322C22BD520A0F9
10:16	deedbot	mod6 paid mircea_popescu 1.50000001
10:16	mod6	Sweet, thanks mircea_popescu!
10:17	mod6	!!ledger mod6
10:17	deedbot	http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/P8Kqn/?raw=true
10:17	mod6	!!sent-invoices
10:17	deedbot	http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/bIL8Y/?raw=true
		~ 36 minutes ~
10:53	deedbot	http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2661 << Loper OS - The Serpent Ciphers Key Schedule Equation System, in Graphical Form.
		~ 16 minutes ~
11:09	deedbot	http://qntra.net/2018/11/pot-to-kettle-please-no-decades-of-pain-that-was-our-schtick/ << Qntra - Pot To Kettle: Please No Decades Of Pain (That Was Our Schtick)
		~ 46 minutes ~
11:55	deedbot	http://mocky.org/Cobbler-Stick-to-Your-Last/ << Mocky.org - Cobbler, stick to your last
11:59	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo " ssemingly". and keks.
12:00	mircea_popescu	"act like a normal nation" aka "don't be a sociopath/psychopath" aka "please recognize incan notions of Holy Mother and Her most reserved role in the playground".
12:00	mircea_popescu	the traditional romanian "o fut pe ma-ta" seems particularily crafted for the occasion of interacting with pantsuit. because, literally, io asta fac : le fut mamica.
		~ 16 minutes ~
12:17	BingoBoingo	ty fxd
12:24	asciilifeform	ohai mircea_popescu
12:24	mod6	hola
12:26	asciilifeform	hey mircea_popescu , did we ever figure out if blumblumshub were worth anything ?
12:28	asciilifeform	subj appears in the l0gz, but nuffin conclusive
12:29	asciilifeform	( the fundamental q is not 'canhaz 4 ring binder?' or 'canhaz 3?' or 'canhaz clean desk' but rather 'canhaz symm cipher whose difficulty reduces to factoring but cheaper than abused-rsa ? ' )
12:37	asciilifeform	more interesting, imho, even, is rabin's system, which (unlike rsa) is equiv to factoring problem, and iirc requires only 4 multiplications to decrypt ( and only 1 squaring to encrypt )
12:38	asciilifeform	( tricky to actually use tho, produces decryption 4 ambiguous outputs, of which only 1 is correct answ )
12:45	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform not really looked into that deeply.
12:49	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i dunno that'd be the end of the world. part of the problem of the usecase (eulora comms) is that you have highly structured inputs.
12:49	mircea_popescu	Mocky "its own".
12:51	mircea_popescu	and it turns out qatar is actually more important for india than india itself realises : it's where the aspie indie elite goes to learn to be "gay", ie, "i can't get any cunt anyway, might as well get used to living with another dude, wardrobe as well as everything else comes cheaper this way, cheap enough in fact for even scum like me to get some".
12:52	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: the 'destructiring problem' is universal to all systems, even rsa
12:52	mircea_popescu	a skill that'll prove most important in their own fucking country, last i heard all the fuckable women they grew locally they exported
12:52	mircea_popescu	leaving aside how they all look like gypsies anyway.
12:53	mircea_popescu	aactually... i guess i should've left that as a comment on the article in q. brb.
12:53	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: imho rabin is worth a look.
12:53	Mocky	mircea_popescu, ok, thx
12:53	asciilifeform	( i've all the necessary logic for it , even : it dun need optimized exponentiations )
12:55	mircea_popescu	Mocky Your comment on the following post is awaiting moderation: http://mocky.org/Souq-Waqif/ << nice cgi work keks
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12:55	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform right but it seems to me trivially easy to select among 4 possibles seeing how you know "this is a game packet, gotta have so and so serial and so and so id etc"
12:55	mircea_popescu	the drawback is that now you mix game code into crypto lib, to discriminate possibles.
12:56	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: ideally you'd have some entirely unrelated mechanism, to do it with ( i dun currently have one to give )
12:57	asciilifeform	or rather,
12:57	mircea_popescu	i suspect you don't have such.
12:57	asciilifeform	actually i do, lol
12:57	mircea_popescu	not in the general case at any rate.
12:57	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform you have what ?
12:57	asciilifeform	as part of the rsa payload, give sequence #, and each rabinism will contain the correct next-seq in the correct-of-four roots
12:58	asciilifeform	( the roots, note, are only available to the fella who has p*q of the n )
12:58	mircea_popescu	sequence is deliberately defined loosely.
12:58	mircea_popescu	only used as ratchet.
12:58	asciilifeform	aha, this one'd be strictly for use in which-root
12:58	asciilifeform	increment with each rabinogram sent.
12:59	asciilifeform	so no need for cryptotron to know about game structures.
13:01	mircea_popescu	so have another layer of transport ?
13:01	asciilifeform	see, rabin dun replace rsa, because of the 4-roots headache; but given as you kick off the 'session' with a rsagram, the latter can contain a bitstring that gives seq #1 . then it gets incremented and appended to payload of each rabinogram, allowing the 4 roots to be distinguished.
13:01	asciilifeform	1 layer.
13:01	mircea_popescu	if 1layer then there's no space for your other-sequence.
13:01	asciilifeform	( session would contain seq & rabinkey )
13:02	mircea_popescu	eulora comms already has a sequence number defined.
13:02	Mocky	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-01#1868297 >> congrats, ur the first person to leave a nameless comment on my blog. I may have to update my cgi to complain now
13:02	a111	Logged on 2018-11-01 16:55 mircea_popescu: Mocky Your comment on the following post is awaiting moderation: http://mocky.org/Souq-Waqif/ << nice cgi work keks
13:02	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: aa i see what you mean
13:02	mircea_popescu	Mocky a win is me.
13:02	asciilifeform	yes you'd need a separate seq counter for rabinism.
13:02	asciilifeform	so far it's the least retarded variant i can think of. ( beats the shit out of sboxism, at any rate )
13:03	mircea_popescu	whatever, retardation is what we deserve.
13:03	asciilifeform	i recommend to at least draw it on paper, before throwing out.
13:03	mircea_popescu	we've been talking about c-s for what, 3+ years ? it's still in the same phase.
13:04	asciilifeform	c-s is expensive on pc
13:04	asciilifeform	( like rsa )
13:05	asciilifeform	the discovery of 3y is that pc is actually pretty slow machine for bignumism once you stop leaking with timings
13:05	mircea_popescu	aanayways.
13:07	asciilifeform	( pretty lulzy, btw, i had nfi mircea_popescu were so attached to serpent, nao i feel sad, it's almost like i killed his dog or wat )
13:12	mircea_popescu	im not attached to serpent in any way other than in the following sense you're well fucking advised to pay attention to : 1. s.mg is a corporation, meaning ith's here to make money. 2. s.mg is also trying, but as a fucking distant second, to be a "good" corporation, however that is politically defined. it doesn't give a fuck about this, not in any deep sense, if the money's good it'll go against policy, and CHANGE policy as i
13:12	mircea_popescu	t's doing it. because this is what la serenissima is all about -- the doge back in venice is more then welcome to wholeheartedly support whatever the fuck the merchants on the blue find correct just and expedient.
13:12	mircea_popescu	3. s.mg tried to be the one fucking thing in its line with encrypted comms, for which purpose it attempted to take some guidance and apply it in practice. NOW, after the money's spent, and the work put in, now smartass-architect comes by to explain "how arches really should be" and "why these arches are terrible". this is worse than useless. not a little worse than useless -- much, MUCH worse than useless. all it does is get
13:12	mircea_popescu	the little architect hung by the neck until dead.
13:12	mircea_popescu	not for his crime of "being smart" and "figuring out the true truth". but for his crime of saying things out of time. because there was a fucking time for this discussion, and it was strictly BEFORE s.mg paid money for people to work their ass off in preference of playing with their kids to get it a serpent.
13:12	mircea_popescu	so the way this is going now -- serpent is going to be perfectly good (tm) for the republic, because the republic is the republic of slow moving, mentally confused morons that miss their opportunities to speak usefully.
13:12	mircea_popescu	how about that!
13:13	mircea_popescu	i ain't about to change the code i have for a theory that might maybe work because the theory behind the code i have might maybe not work according to this drawing.
13:13	mircea_popescu	for all i know, just about the time i'm done uprooting this and planting that, you'll be geniusing the exact same thing about that. i have 0 confidence this won't happen, specifically because of historical evolution, and so...
13:14	*	asciilifeform eats buffer, might take a while
13:23	mircea_popescu	mod6 BingoBoingo send me those deets again, wouldja.
13:25	mircea_popescu	Mocky "After enough conversations with chicks I found the pattern. They talk the same by race, they act the same they think the same. Its like NPCs backed by a bored dialog writer wielding a Markov chain." << honestly, i dunno how much time you spent talking with us-born chickies, but the EXACT SAME THING APPLIES. and they even actively work to create such systematic nonsense, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-31#1867831 bein
13:25	a111	Logged on 2018-10-31 00:12 mircea_popescu: in-group signalling, obviously someone not in-group would not say "drumpf" just like that.
13:25	mircea_popescu	g a point in case. if she's aspiring to "work for the government" she'll tell you about how unfair it is for blacks, if she aspires to work "for tech" she'll tell you how bad homeless are, if she wants to marry and dependopopotamusize she'll tell you handgun stats, whatever.
13:25	mircea_popescu	this notion of "be anyone" etc is entirely fabricated, out of the venom of mother inca and the overactive brains of idle smart boys. nobody agrees with it, nothing agrees with it in practice, it never is nor ever was nor ever could be found in nature... it's like you thinking santa claus is real.
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13:29	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i dun get it , you'd willingly use a broken cipher to make a point ?
13:29	asciilifeform	( why bother with cipher, then, could make 9000x point by 'i'ma plaintext! take that!' )
13:29	mircea_popescu	not quite the same point.
13:30	mircea_popescu	i foresaw this need, in 2015. i put 10 btc behind encouraging people to fix the problem. it died an ignominous death, what i have is serpent, that's what it is.
13:30	mircea_popescu	time doesn't flow fucking backwards.
13:30	asciilifeform	i certainly dun dispute mircea_popescu's right to do it, if he wants.
13:30	mircea_popescu	not a matter of ~want~. i DO NOT HAVE THE OPTION.
13:30	mircea_popescu	i saw the problem, in advance, i did my best to solve it, this is what came out of that.
13:30	mircea_popescu	maybe you're magical and have this option of going back in time, and good for you. i do not.
13:31	asciilifeform	it's how pc/os ended up what it is, neh. buncha folx 'i spent $trillion and nao i Dun Have The Option to stop..'
13:31	mircea_popescu	yup.
13:31	mircea_popescu	that's ~exactly~ how it all worked.
13:32	mircea_popescu	and if you're curious -- the reason they "whisper" is because they have 0 confidence there's any listeners. and listener means a very specific thing : the sort of person who both a) meets the intelligence bar AND!!! ALSO!!!! b) does not hallucinate options. such as "oh, dun need to do this now."
13:32	mod6	mircea_popescu: on it.
13:32	mircea_popescu	i suspect, if you care to know, that you have a major problem in that you only want to work on anything once it's too late. not coincidentally, but structurally, it being too late is principally part of the criteria impelling you to work.
13:33	asciilifeform	what i dun get is wai mircea_popescu thinks he has reached the place where 'no option' , afaik he hasn't baked $trillion asic . conceivably if mircea_popescu ( who 'i will live & die by factoring-is-not-in-P !' ) can reduce problem to factoring-not-in-P, he still has option .
13:33	mircea_popescu	i don't follow the logic.
13:35	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: you haven't launched $billion mars probe with serpent in silicon. so you have option ( not proposing 'let's rabin! right nao!' , it's naturally a measure-7-times-cut-1ce subj )
13:36	asciilifeform	it's a software, neh.
13:37	asciilifeform	unlike the massive pile of pgpgrams-cum-aes we've collectively shat out all over the net, nobody's even ciphered anyffing with serpent of yet, aside from diana_coman's tests
13:37	mod6	mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/WEUIy/?raw=true
13:37	mircea_popescu	what, is this discussion abotu some magic number ?
13:37	mircea_popescu	i said to diana_coman "implement serpent". that's it.
13:38	mircea_popescu	this discussion'd have been useful ~before~. after, it's spurious.
13:38	mod6	mircea_popescu: let me know if you have any questions, ofc.
13:39	mircea_popescu	and yes, ima implement "a cipher alf doesn't like" over alf's objections. because the only way alf'd be a stakeholder in this is... if... he had participated at a usefgul time. not at the time he felt like.
13:40	asciilifeform	i dun see why conjure up the presense that 'didn't participate at useful time' ; asciilifeform attacked problem of 'blockcipherism' ~continuously for 3+ yr.
13:40	asciilifeform	'why didntcha find this sooner' is ridiculous q.
13:41	mircea_popescu	in the sense of "wait for diana_coman to publish ada code and then i'll maybe give it 6 hours of attention". that's your 3years
13:41	mircea_popescu	and it dun fucking work, in practice.
13:41	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: fwiw i tried all kinds of approaches to breaking serpent in '16
13:42	asciilifeform	turning up the (potential! i aint even got a proof yet) weakness of the scheduler algo, took specifically the 'let's fpgaize, i think this is solid!' approach.
13:42	asciilifeform	( and , recall, mircea_popescu almost talked me out of it, 'nobody needs iron disk crypter with questionable serpent' )
13:43	asciilifeform	i found this (potential?) find by carrying out an experiment over mircea_popescu's objection, lol
13:43	mircea_popescu	looky, the past 3 days' work could have been done just as well in 2015 as today.
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13:43	mircea_popescu	the only different element is that today, unlike in 2015 (and not even RIGHT NOW, today as in this year) diana_coman published serpent code.
13:43	mircea_popescu	that's all there is to it.
13:43	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: she published vintage coad straight off my hdd, lol
13:43	asciilifeform	recall thread ?
13:43	mircea_popescu	so then what the fuck happened, by your lights ?
13:44	asciilifeform	i had to algebraize the thing , and have just the right rng bits flip in head , to get the 'ceiling tiles' ( why didn't mircea_popescu get'em in '15 ? )
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13:44	mircea_popescu	is the idea more along then lines of "i knew about this all along, just didn't feel about telling you schmucks anything until after you poured cement" ? rather than "i literally could not be arsed to even look at this until someone poured some cement somewhere so i could pester them then" ?
13:44	mircea_popescu	oh, that's easy, i didn't cuz i can't code.
13:45	asciilifeform	'why didn't you turn over this stone in '15 ?' 'there's 10^100 stones'
13:45	asciilifeform	coad dun come into it, it's a mathematical find
13:45	asciilifeform	and mircea_popescu is a trained maths fella, in fact theoretically moar qualified than asciilifeform to have found it
13:45	asciilifeform	why didn't find ?
13:46	mircea_popescu	understand the position here : code (practice) <-> algos (theory). we currently have actual code for an algo that you persuasively suggest may not be good (but not actually done the work to turn that suggestive theory in practice) and suggest replacement algos (but not done work again). my option is to either put in 0 work for 0 result, or else put in x work for 0 result.
13:46	mircea_popescu	it's, as they call in busioness, "a no brainer" -- i ain't doing jack.
13:46	asciilifeform	i did not say 'let's use nao this replacement'
13:46	mircea_popescu	so what did you say ?
13:46	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu actually kicked off thread where 'could have replacement ? ' so added one to the record, in case a replacement turns out to be needed.
13:46	mircea_popescu	yes, im going to use a shittier-than-hoped for cipher, for lack of alternative.
13:47	mircea_popescu	i did ?!
13:47	asciilifeform	aha, http://trilema.com/2018/so-i-designed-a-block-chipher/
13:47	mircea_popescu	i specificalyl said "time for btmsr cipher competition was 2015 -- it died".
13:47	mircea_popescu	the point there is I DESIGNED IT!!!
13:47	mircea_popescu	im not hiring anyone to do it, not anymore. tried and failed.
13:47	asciilifeform	ok, but did not say 'let's nobody else design block cipher! i hate block ciphers'
13:48	mircea_popescu	let them design all they want.
13:48	asciilifeform	thread was strictly re 'canhaz block ciphers?' , rather than 'let's talk mircea_popescu into switching to $weird'
13:48	mircea_popescu	they can go to a posh afair and show the designs to each other.
13:48	asciilifeform	incidentally if mircea_popescu dun want to read re serp. scheduler, he dun have to !
13:49	asciilifeform	but to rage over 'why not found this in 1998' is imho odd at the very least.
13:49	asciilifeform	could have lived for 100 yrs and looked daily and not found.
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13:49	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform well, maybe your thread. my thread was re "are we fucking idiots ?! we have a foundation that wants to publish statements of the nothing as its only output, we have a bunch of smart people not helping our own industry avoid pitfals, and in this vein forever"
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13:49	mircea_popescu	it's not even clear what makes us so damned good, atm.
13:50	mircea_popescu	why is s.mg better off with republican stack than with java stack ? it's still using serpent!
13:50	mircea_popescu	might as well capitalize on Mocky 's experience turn it into a ruby gem, yes ?
13:50	asciilifeform	imho the 'thing that makes us good' is that we dun do dumb shit like 'we know it's broken but we'll still use it because fuckyou should've discovered yer death ray in 1998'
13:50	asciilifeform	( btw is it obvious that we haven't , at this time, broken anyffing ? or not )
13:51	mircea_popescu	good thing we have strong entreopy, to run serpent off it.
13:51	mircea_popescu	this should be a series of fucking cartoons.
13:51	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform it's obvious, we don't even know serpent is in fact no good, hence "you persuasively suggest may not be good (but not actually done the work to turn that suggestive theory in practice)"
13:51	asciilifeform	i dun actually have pill ! ( i.e. you're in roughly same position as prior )
13:52	asciilifeform	we already ~did~ know that it has no proof of nonretardation, when picked it up
13:52	asciilifeform	so that aint news
13:52	asciilifeform	say tomorrow mircea_popescu finds out that factoring is in P . will rage ? at whom ? what if he finds it himself, without any help ?
13:52	mircea_popescu	i will guaranteedly rage.
13:53	asciilifeform	rage, it's good for circulation. but then come back an' think.
13:53	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform and so would alf, when he finds out http://btcbase.org/log/2017-03-11#1624968 ; and so on.
13:53	a111	Logged on 2017-03-11 00:15 asciilifeform: motherFUCKing whisperers.
13:53	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: you have my word that i did not sit on 'ceiling tiles', posted immediately when got'em.
13:53	asciilifeform	fwiw.
13:53	mircea_popescu	it's healthy, let alone necessary, to rage in certain circumstances. this here being a fine fucking example -- because i still not for a second believe had you earnestly sat ass down in 2015 you couldn't have earned that 10 coin.
13:54	asciilifeform	and if i had'em in 1998, would've posted in '98.
13:54	asciilifeform	cuz wainot.
13:54	mircea_popescu	and i have like a strong suspicion that nothing else you did hence had the same btc/hour return, either.
13:54	asciilifeform	i still dun have a proper 'winner' for that tourney ! and neither does anybody else
13:54	asciilifeform	for all i know it is not even possible.
13:55	asciilifeform	ferfuxxsake we still don't know the complexity class factoring falls into.
13:55	asciilifeform	or whether rsa reduces to factoring.
13:55	asciilifeform	or even whether P != NP.
13:55	mircea_popescu	yes, but wrong approach to it all! "here's why serpent's no good, here's why i don't like dea-aes etc, here's rabin method, imo best" IS something.
13:55	mircea_popescu	whereas nothing is nothing.
13:55	asciilifeform	i dun have a 'it's no good'
13:56	asciilifeform	i have a 'i want to find out what it loox like in algebraic form , let's fpga it'
13:56	mircea_popescu	as much as you have now, could have been had then! for, literally, 1-2 man-days, at teh most. you dispute this ?
13:56	asciilifeform	incidentally 90% written fpgaization
13:56	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: nope.
13:56	asciilifeform	couldn't.
13:56	mircea_popescu	sooo! what portion of this do you dispute ?
13:56	asciilifeform	that 'could have then'
13:57	mircea_popescu	"<mircea_popescu> as much as you have now, could have been had then! for, literally, 1-2 man-days, at teh most. you dispute this ?" "<asciilifeform> mircea_popescu: nope. couldn't" "<mircea_popescu> sooo! what portion of this do you dispute ?" "<asciilifeform> that 'could have then' "
13:57	mircea_popescu	which branch we keep of this contradictory 1=0 ?
13:57	asciilifeform	i suppose if the gods had whispered into my ear 'go algebraize the scheduler, even tho it is not actually needed for any implementation, and you'll find buried treasure', would've dug
13:57	asciilifeform	but they did not .
13:57	mircea_popescu	so a review of extant candidates is not a self-obvious first step in attempting to sit down for such a competition ?
13:58	asciilifeform	reviewed !
13:58	asciilifeform	it's how even ended up with serpent.
13:58	mircea_popescu	but...
13:58	mircea_popescu	reviewed what, oversuperficially ?
13:58	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: from your pov, find is obvious ? ( if obvious, why are we the first to find it ? )
13:59	asciilifeform	if tomorrow i tell mircea_popescu how to build death ray, will rage, 'why didntcha back in '98' ?
13:59	mircea_popescu	here's the one point i am making, overarchingly and i should hope as loudly as humanly possible : ~THERE IS MAJOR BREAKAGE IN THE EVAL FUNCTION~, whereby man looks at 10btc in 2015, thinks "$500" or w/e it was, and then goes "the amt of anti-superficial $500 buys me is one hour, not one day nor one week".
13:59	mircea_popescu	BECAUSE, bitcoin, and ~everything else in the republic this bitcoin is the currency of, ~~~EVERYTHING ELSE~~~~ has a very unlinear time function.
14:00	mircea_popescu	dimes from 2015 are millions in 2020, this sort of thing.
14:00	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i ( and afaik nobody else ) actually put substantial effort into playing in yer tourney
14:00	asciilifeform	so i dun see from where this .
14:00	mircea_popescu	if you swear so i'll believe,
14:00	mircea_popescu	because i like you,
14:00	asciilifeform	i do so swear.
14:00	asciilifeform	in fact i still dig for 'winner' even tho nobody offers prize !
14:00	mircea_popescu	but the manager in me wouldn't never buy it, because management goes a certain way, and distrusts a certain way.
14:00	asciilifeform	cuz i want one for own self
14:01	asciilifeform	i dun work for prizes, medals, mircea_popescu knows this.
		↖
14:01	mircea_popescu	yes, certainly.
14:01	asciilifeform	if i worked for medals, would work in derpistan academy of sciences, rather than with mircea_popescu et al
14:02	mircea_popescu	why, our medals are way the fuck cooler.
14:02	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu mod6: Here's the data center's info to get the wire to them http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/WH2Fe/?raw=true
14:02	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: point being, i actually take the 'causes, not purposes' thing seriously. even have a poster ver. of it, for pet.
14:03	mircea_popescu	but this aside -- i suspect you also don't work... how shall i put this... everyone's eval-er that keeps them from making coffin liners works on some heuristics. and i suspect your heuristics are out of whack with the insanity that is bitcoin. ie, the important and the unimportant don't get all that clearly separated.
14:03	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo ty. will proceed forthwith, shall keep you posted.
14:03	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: dunno about this. even 3y ago i saw 10coin as a fortune.
14:03	asciilifeform	to this day i take erry possible chance to buy some up, when i got with what.
14:04	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: No, thank you for the liquidity
14:04	mircea_popescu	hey, "why didn't you see the goat" is in the end a boundless question, "i just fucking didn't. i don';t know why, obviously it's there, but i did not see it"
14:04	asciilifeform	( and from-whom. in e.g. 2009 i did not have any friends with coin, and loathed to use 'exchanges' )
14:04	mircea_popescu	comes up in eg expert oncologist training lots more than anyone'd like.
14:04	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i'm moar of a coroner than oncologist.
14:04	mircea_popescu	point being, "this spot here"
14:05	mircea_popescu	"why did you not see this spot here"
14:05	asciilifeform	if could always see 'this spot here', folx would live ~4evah
14:05	asciilifeform	'don't cross that road' 'don't get on that plane'
14:06	mircea_popescu	anyway, no, i'm not married to serpent. i don't even fucking like it that much. i even said so!
14:08	asciilifeform	aha!
14:09	mircea_popescu	it does ~seem~ to be weaker than my own intel indicates, but fuck that spot.
		↖
14:10	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: i'm actually ready to believe that we're finders of actual find, rather than 'quimby is laughing'
14:10	asciilifeform	i simply cannot rule out the hypothesis of 'quimby laughs' entirely, is all.
14:11	mircea_popescu	entirely possibly ; wouldn't even be the first time, at that.
14:11	asciilifeform	there is btw a deeper point re key-expanders -- there is a fundamental contradiction between two of the things that folx both want from 'cryptographic hash'. one one hand, they demand 'not reversible', but on other hand they ~also~ demand 'conserves key space'
14:11	mircea_popescu	yes! hence the shredder!
14:11	mircea_popescu	quite exactly fundamental.
14:12	asciilifeform	but if a transform is injective, it is necessarily reversible.
14:12	asciilifeform	but! if it is not injective! then you have collisions waiting for you.
14:12	mircea_popescu	no, cuz could be non-bijective the other way!
14:12	asciilifeform	hm?
14:12	asciilifeform	if there's 1 possible output for each input, then it's an 'sbox' , and reversible ( potentially )
14:13	asciilifeform	the only way to guarantee non-reversibility , is to lose sumthing
14:13	asciilifeform	( e.g. multiplication of primes, is a ~conjectured~ trapdoor, we dun have any provable trapdoors, nobody ever discovered such afaik )
14:14	mircea_popescu	F(A)->B : bijective : each A has one and exactly one B correspondent. injective : each A has one value ; surjective if each B is corresponded.
14:14	mircea_popescu	nfi what anglo terminology is, but -- obviously all bijective functions are reversible ; however there's TWO ways in which to not be bijective.
14:15	asciilifeform	1 is that you lose bits somewhere ; what's the other ?
14:15	mircea_popescu	you reject some plaintexts.
14:15	mircea_popescu	i guess
14:16	asciilifeform	i.e. 'sorry, this won't output a hash' ?
14:16	mircea_popescu	yes.
14:16	asciilifeform	then you still have a hash, simply with unknown input space, neh
14:16	asciilifeform	smaller + unknown.
14:16	mircea_popescu	something like that.
14:16	mircea_popescu	i am mentioning it for completeness. lose ~something~, yes.
14:17	asciilifeform	it's essentially what serpent's ( and afaik errybody's ) key inflater already does. except that it doesn't bother to tell you, simply shits out a colliding output.
14:17	asciilifeform	there'd still be 1 possible output for erry valid input tho
14:17	asciilifeform	( or >1, nothing in re rejecting some inputs, guarantees that there aint )
14:17	mircea_popescu	imo there's a difference between "the hash for this plaintext is undefined" and "we've divided the space of possible plaintexts in synonimy rings for your convenience (which we separated packagely)."
14:18	asciilifeform	it is possible to have a hash like this. simplest example,
14:19	asciilifeform	err, nope. can't presently think of one.
14:19	asciilifeform	( if mircea_popescu can, i promise to read )
14:20	mircea_popescu	anyway, back to it : "blockcipher takes 10 bits of P and no more ; spits out 16 bits of E exactly" a) needs entropy and b) probably reduces to rsa-with-oaep.
14:21	mircea_popescu	ie, not a cipher anymore, becomes blockcrypter.
14:21	asciilifeform	the other point, is that i dun see why even have key-inflaters. use rng for the fucking key, all of it
14:21	mircea_popescu	whole fucking point here is -- we already have strong crypto, can we also get strong (or at least strong-ish) ciphro.
14:21	asciilifeform	why this whitening sadness.
14:21	asciilifeform	design the cipher around the bitness of the key you actually want to use.
14:22	asciilifeform	none of this 'key is 256b but REAL key is 528 bytes' strange
14:24	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: btw here, if we must, is an example of an injective key expander that is physically possible, but requires an exotic object : a rsa pub that nobody has the priv to. then can 'hash-expand' by rsa-enciphering message to it.
14:25	asciilifeform	afaik the only way to approximate this object is to take, e.g., all of l1, and multiply their public mods together.
14:25	asciilifeform	nao i'd still rather have 'the key is the fucking key', but gotta point out for the l0gz that the problem contemplated earlier, is in principle solvable.
14:26	asciilifeform	promisetronic, tho, i dun like it.
14:26	asciilifeform	it smacks of the nonsense the z-whateveritwascalled people, did
14:28	asciilifeform	the 'nobody has priv' is not even a necessary condition, if you can make it so that only the parties who are actually party to the link, have it.
14:29	asciilifeform	then it's a perfectly valid injective expand, for whatever purpose.
14:29	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i dunno this is exotic.
14:29	asciilifeform	right, took me a few sec to see that it aint
14:29	mircea_popescu	imo very good key expander, other than the fact it's kinda slow.
14:29	asciilifeform	not ruinously slow.
14:30	asciilifeform	(cult of 'fast on pc' is how we ended up with all kindsa rubbish. if you want sumthing to be fast, folx, bake iron around it! like civilized folx! )
14:31	mircea_popescu	(the whole idea behind eg http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-30#1867780 is that the only way for this to work is to have both a key AND an input. which... it is.)
14:31	a111	Logged on 2018-10-30 19:50 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform ok, how about this : let K being the key n bits long (say 512), and let f(x) = 2 * K[0] * x ^ n + 3 * K[1] * x ^ n-1 + 5 * K[2] * x ^ n-2 + 7 * K[3] * x ^ n-3 + 11 * K[4] * x ^ n-4 +...+ 3643 * K[n-2] * x ^ 2 + 3659 * K[n-1] * x + 3659. f(x) will produce a pile of bits, this pile is cut in half and xored together, the result is cut in half again. one such half is returned as the prng output ; the other such half
14:31	mircea_popescu	nothing wrong with using the RSA as the f, but idea remains.
14:32	asciilifeform	'rsa as expander' imho is easier to reduce to 'known difficulty' than 'find roots of ~randomly-picked polynomial' is
14:32	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform in fact, as eulora comms mandate the parties know at least one rsa key of each other, it becomes eminently possible to use (session-based!) n1*n2 for this purpose.
14:32	asciilifeform	correct!
14:33	mircea_popescu	in which case yes, it'd seem at least one workable method is for parties to declare F=RSA-n1n2(x) and then use its spew as otp pad for all their stuff.
14:33	asciilifeform	( you want exponentiation, tho, i.e. actual rsa op, or snoop can get n2 by gcd of successive msgs )
14:33	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform n1^n2, sure, same money.
14:34	asciilifeform	back upstack, this is why i even suggested rabinism, it's a less-expensive rsa that actually plugs into this hole.
14:35	mircea_popescu	requires new code being baked, which meh.
14:36	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: if you actually need it, i'ma bake it
14:36	mircea_popescu	that's ok.
14:36	asciilifeform	it's approx 10 lines on top of ch11 .
14:37	asciilifeform	( if mircea_popescu dun need it, i'ma bake it anyway, it's imho a great demo )
14:39	asciilifeform	the simplicity and reducibility-to-factoringishard of rabin is appealing, and wai not bake in advance so as mircea_popescu yr later doesn't 'why didntcha!'
14:41	mircea_popescu	defensive baking!
14:41	asciilifeform	sometimes i suspect that i threw mircea_popescu's 'how hard is $problem' meter out of all possible calibration, given as very often when asciilifeform posts a thing, it is result of year or two of experimentation; and on other hand if i put ~all~ of the intermediates and dead ends into the l0gz, there'd scarcely be any room for anyffing else
14:41	asciilifeform	( as it is asciilifeform floods the l0gz )
14:42	mircea_popescu	yes, well, i'm not calibrated by you wth. srsly, what you did to serpent wasn't stroke of genius, but simply spade work. you dispute this ?!
14:44	mircea_popescu	and very good that you did it, and yes for some-incomprehensible-reason "people" dun seem to be ever doing it, but it's still what it fucking is -- self evident and systematically applicable to any and all other ciphers.
14:45	asciilifeform	spade !
14:46	asciilifeform	pretty much errything i do is spade, mircea_popescu !
14:46	asciilifeform	i aint got so much else than spade.
14:46	mircea_popescu	right.
14:47	asciilifeform	at any rate not proposing that i single-handedly uncalibrate mircea_popescu , i suspect that other folx contribute, lol
14:47	asciilifeform	it's a problem common to pretty much all folx who experiment regularly with techno-crapolade
14:47	mircea_popescu	taking the evident and less fraught example of phuctor -- yes, "tel you what, ima dake djb results and apply!", genius. but "let's actually divide some numbers" absolutely spade, and it is this latter that yielded.
14:48	asciilifeform	all i got is , 99% spade, and occasional bit of 'where to spade'
14:48	asciilifeform	if i had 100% 'where to spade' , we'd be shooting enemy from atomic dirigible with death ray just nao, rather than this thread.
14:49	mircea_popescu	yes, well, the entirety of the morning's discussion reduces to "what the fuck've you been spading, i only hear about serpent-this nao".
14:50	asciilifeform	could have very easily done same amt of spading, and not found. i dun even know if i'll find a reduction of the matrix, just yet.
14:52	asciilifeform	conceivably if asciilifeform were smarter, would've ~began~ with the scheduler, rather than the sboxes
14:52	asciilifeform	in retrospect seems obvious that it's the most questionable bit
14:52	mircea_popescu	i suppose this is a major (if unsurprising) moral of this story : always start with what htey don't discuss.
14:53	asciilifeform	a++ heuristic, can take to the bank
14:53	mircea_popescu	they didn't discuss factored keys re rsa, everything and anything but that -- we went ther,e it yielded.
14:53	asciilifeform	all stage magic , lives in 'where are you being distracted from?'
14:53	mircea_popescu	the point you make re serpent is solid -- discussions, by the dumptruck. of anything and everything BUT. went there, yielded within the week.
14:53	mircea_popescu	gotta become standard republican behaviour, insta-go into the silence.
14:53	asciilifeform	gotta go to the place-being-distracted-from.
14:54	asciilifeform	( it aint always obvious just ~where~ that is, enemy is pretty handy with sleight-of-hand )
14:54	mircea_popescu	yet a picture is starting to emerge.
14:54	asciilifeform	verily
14:55	mircea_popescu	"what's the only salient point of #metoo '''mopvement''' aka morons on usg.ugc sites ?" "that it only attaches to people who don't laugh at them."
14:55	mircea_popescu	and so in this manner, forevermoar.
14:55	asciilifeform	while we're on subj, mircea_popescu had a pretty interesting observation in '16, 'the boecks were rousted because we're on to sumthing, but we dun know precisely what yet'
14:55	asciilifeform	i still dun know precisely what
14:55	mircea_popescu	the problem with "precisely what" being it's elusive.
14:55	asciilifeform	perhaps it's simply the fact of duped p's and q's, but could easily be larger
14:57	asciilifeform	aha
15:02	asciilifeform	btw while we're on subj of spades, asciilifeform is not ( contrary to the apparent picture ) averse to taking input re where to spade.
15:03	mircea_popescu	you're very fucking adverse, cuz you have complicated pre-spading requirements.
15:03	asciilifeform	dun hesitate to say 'hey this smells like buried goodies'
15:03	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: at all times i try to keep some reserve of unallocated spade cycles
15:04	mircea_popescu	im not disputing you're consciously trying to overcome it. but as a factual matter -- yes, very adverse.
15:07	asciilifeform	will also add, some problems my spade dun work on, and take unseemly long time of 'wtf did you do' to even convert into spadeable form with the tooling available to asciilifeform
15:07	mircea_popescu	right.
15:08	asciilifeform	early trb , for instance. i had nfi how to cure the db locks thing until mircea_popescu supplied the pill.
15:09	asciilifeform	prolly would have found it, but who even knows how much digging would have taken.
15:09	mircea_popescu	we're not even talking "magic number only dragons know" sorta items here. take the easy example of "go dig up qatar/uruguay/whatever", not because im trying to underhandedly make you move but because it's a fabulously easy to see example.
15:10	asciilifeform	asciilifeform is not a+++ chukcha talker / polar explorer, this aint a seekrit, that crown goes to others.
15:10	mircea_popescu	yes, but asciilifeform is not because complicated pre-spading requirements, not because asciilifeform ~actually is not~.
15:10	mircea_popescu	and this exact same problem translates in the realm of theoretical work, also.
15:12	asciilifeform	it's a cost of specialization / finite hrs in the day. i suppose i could prolly become a middling-to-ok chukcha talker, instead of what i do nao, if comes to it. but i dun think i will ever be a champ, i dun have the decades of doing it, that other folx have.
15:13	mircea_popescu	except time doesn\t work this way.
15:14	mircea_popescu	take http://btcbase.org/log/2018-08-24#1844323 ; the one thing the bimbo whose summaries you don't like and whose marked improvement over time you disparage had to say was "oh, great idea. we did that at purdue, made a lot of money." she happens to be right, too ; she also hasn't the decades of doing this. or anything else, for that matter -- she can barely speak english.
15:14	a111	Logged on 2018-08-24 18:39 mircea_popescu: a shop of used computer parts is a great complement for a dc op.
15:14	mircea_popescu	time dun do what you think time does.
15:15	asciilifeform	'time' aint a scalar, no, time spend balleting when yer 5 y.o. counts infinitely moar than same when yer 40
15:15	asciilifeform	if what you want is to be world class balletist
15:15	mircea_popescu	the only passible definition of intelligence i am aware of is, "the reunion of fields of human activity where the time-function has no age-relation."
15:16	mircea_popescu	so yes, in ballet. BUT THERE ONLY, for the purposes of this discussion.
15:16	asciilifeform	'can ya play violin?' 'dunno, not tried yet'
15:16	mircea_popescu	yes, basketball-ballet and stripper-ballet and all other ballets.
15:21	asciilifeform	asciilifeform is not , in his opinion, inept to the point of vegetable, but must say that prolly could not do what Mocky did, at least within the budget that he did it in
15:21	asciilifeform	so it is good that there is a Mocky
15:23	asciilifeform	for that matter, earlier, BingoBoingo : a++ terraformer
15:24	mircea_popescu	and this, because Mocky had decades talking to orcs that alf didn't get ?
15:24	mircea_popescu	then men in question would disagree, i suspect.
15:25	asciilifeform	could simply have moar talent
15:25	mircea_popescu	funny thing this tarent, that's at the same time lale and turns out to be arways thele.
15:25	mircea_popescu	or something.
15:26	*	asciilifeform brb,teatime
		~ 17 minutes ~
15:43	Mocky	I didn't have any more experience talking to orcs than chatting up chicks or writing c++, or rebuilding my bike engine back in the day, or fixing a million and one things for the first time. I don't know shit about shit. I never did
15:44	Mocky	i know about raising kids, now that they are grown. and I know about java now that I'm sick of it
15:44	mircea_popescu	kinda how this goes.
15:48	Mocky	but there's no way this kind of spade work is going to be harder than trying to wrap my head around code for hours. I always came out on top of the code, so what I'm not gonna figure out how to talk to people if actually try?
15:51	mircea_popescu	in fact a lot of everything is very much like http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-01#1868412 -- before republic tells you to go figure out talking to people, you don't know you can because you don't know to think to try.
15:51	a111	Logged on 2018-11-01 17:49 asciilifeform: could have lived for 100 yrs and looked daily and not found.
15:55	Mocky	unrelatedly, "In its IPO prospectus, Qatar Aluminium Manufacturing Company said one of the strategic objectives is to maximize shareholder returns by increasing financial returns." -Gulf Times fishwrap
15:55	Mocky	such strategy
15:56	mircea_popescu	hey, if there didn't exist a bunch of unwashed morons polluting san francisco bay area, such obvious statements wouldn't be needed.
15:56	mircea_popescu	buit as it is -- it's good to know they aim to make money as opposed to satisfy the tweeting hordes.
15:57	mircea_popescu	linux, for instance, has a "code of conduct" instead.
		~ 50 minutes ~
16:48	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform speaking of "taking suggestions" : suppose you bake me a proper drop-in gpg replacement. in ada, constant time, does FG-aware keygen, signing, verification, and encryption/decription. 100% rsa, none of the "cipher" bs as per current.
		↖
16:48	mircea_popescu	ima pay s.nsa a coupla bitcoin for your trouble, and donate the result to the republic, in lieu of donating moar money to the dead end foundation.
16:49	mircea_popescu	ideally also has compatibility layer, which allows it to import gpg 2.0 and 1.4 style keys (and converts them to republican format), verify gpg 2.0 and 1.4 sigs and decrypt gpg 2.0 and 1.4 messages (but not encrypt to them).
16:53	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: happens to be exactly what i set out to; on top of that, even got a gpg extractor (currently in py, but slated for adaization) , precisely for same
		↖
16:54	asciilifeform	it is possible that there's some format gnarl that i haven't accounted for , tho, i haven't tried erry elephantine key on it ( should really test by walking phuctor db )
16:54	asciilifeform	definitely fails on uniturds
16:55	asciilifeform	will have to specify the exact meaning of 'drop-in replace' tho, i suspect you dun actually want the keychain bs for instance
16:56	asciilifeform	( or e.g. subkeyism )
16:59	asciilifeform	sounds like 'polish off the bloody bignum thing already!', lol. matrix reduction will have to wait, then.
17:00	mircea_popescu	well, drop-in in the sense that once it's published ima ask trinque for a timetable for moving deedbot to using it ; and future aspirants to registration will have to use it, bake their own equivalent, or get lost.
17:00	asciilifeform	( if, btw, somebody else has the time/inclination to do the latter, i'll only say 'thx'. thing is already in xor-sat form, roll the constant term into the eqn's, set $known-schedule as the output values, and gaussian-reduce... )
17:01	mircea_popescu	nothing wrong with giving that a breather, see where heroes may lie hidden in the woodwork.
17:01	asciilifeform	let the heroes rise!
17:01	asciilifeform	sword -- right there in that stone.
17:01	mircea_popescu	exact sort of thing the very bite-ful "fuck you, world, you're not good enough to play" is articulated out of.
17:01	mircea_popescu	"if you were good enough -- you would have had."
17:02	*	asciilifeform re-rotates desk to ffa pile
		↖
17:03	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: once we have the basic variant going, can then take some of the slowbite out of it with asmism etc
		~ 1 hours 8 minutes ~
18:12	bvt	hi, i have made some exploration of linux syscall interface (using musl) http://bvt-trace.net/2018/10/linux-portability-part-1-exploring-musl-architecture-specific-headers/
18:12	bvt	http://bvt-trace.net/2018/10/linux-portability-part-2-exploring-musl-ifdefs-or-define-pdp_endian-3412/
18:12	bvt	can't say these results are any useful until i write a summary (todo for saturday).
18:13	bvt	i also intend to genesis a ffatronic base64 encoder/decoder that i wrote as an exercise (also todo for the weekend).
18:14	mircea_popescu	trinque can bvt-trace.net be added also plox ?
18:14	mircea_popescu	bvt what's a "bvt" anyway ?
18:14	trinque	sure
18:16	bvt	mircea_popescu: acronym from my name
18:24	BingoBoingo	In local news, some old dryed up bag is talking about how Uruguay should break off relations with Brasil.
18:28	deedbot	http://qntra.net/2018/11/alleged-cia-leaker-schulte-alleged-to-continue-leaking-usg-seekrits-from-jail/ << Qntra - Alleged CIA Leaker Schulte Alleged to Continue Leaking USG Seekrits From Jail
18:29	mircea_popescu	top keks
18:29	BingoBoingo	4real
18:30	asciilifeform	lulzy that they din't simply poison him yet
18:30	asciilifeform	just how much work is it, srsly
18:30	BingoBoingo	Can't afford it
18:30	asciilifeform	milosevich yes, rando no ?
18:30	asciilifeform	what sense does it make.
18:30	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the talking bags don'\t actually do anything or matter in any sense. it's like going "i wonder why dickens' characters didn't murder dickens, he's such a tedious pile of crap"
18:30	BingoBoingo	They only had to poison one milosevich
18:31	mircea_popescu	how THE FUCK are figments of imagination gonna kill some dude ?
18:31	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: erry once in a while when planets align , these dickens chars step out of the page and actually do sumthing, neh
18:31	BingoBoingo	You poison a rando you gotta poison the rando stoolies or pay them off to not notice you poisoned the rando they were told to keep tabs on in exchange for getting prettier twinks in their block
18:31	mircea_popescu	yes, i get it, if those characters lucked out with a better author, they wouldn't be so fork-eyeingly boring and trite and omfg enough already.
18:31	mircea_popescu	but whaty are they to do
18:32	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform neh.
18:32	mircea_popescu	you're contemplating something along the lines of "today nov 1st the sun rose because someone said ''the sun also rises'' in a book"
18:32	asciilifeform	so model is, 'dog barks, caravan moves' ?
18:33	mircea_popescu	quite.
18:33	BingoBoingo	Today the sun did not in fact rise. At some point the thick clouds dispersed and it was already up
18:33	mircea_popescu	ro is "ciinii latra, caravana trece", ie, dogs bark, caravan passes, which imo slightly better.
18:33	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo ikr.
18:35	BingoBoingo	Local medical student was stabbed and body dumped on Playa Ramirez near Parque Rodo. Peruana's interpretation is "Don't walk Playa Pocitos so late at night"
18:35	mircea_popescu	"and if you do, give better head"
18:35	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: lol! why wasn't it, e.g., 'don't menstruate so much' ? betcha victim menstruated!11
18:36	mircea_popescu	fact : no female that sucked a mean cock was ever stabbed at night.
18:36	BingoBoingo	Apparently it was dude medical student
18:36	asciilifeform	lolx2
18:36	mircea_popescu	not even clear anyth9ing's been contradicted :D
18:40	BingoBoingo	I don't know everything going on on the west side of Bulevard Artigas, but on my side the people getting robbed are getting robbed repeatedly because they can't quit their prey behaviors
18:43	BingoBoingo	There's folks who whine in the paper that everyone in their family has been robbed twice, yet they fail to wonder "is something wrong with my family?"
18:45	mircea_popescu	doh.
18:45	mircea_popescu	nothing could ever be wrong with any fambly!!!
18:49	BingoBoingo	Seriously though, asciilifeform has met me in person and confirm I am not built like a person who should be seeking out fights. Yet... It isn't rare to be walking about and the sight of some local dork fires something in the brain roughly equivalent to "they aren't as opprosed as they are signalling they should be"
18:50	BingoBoingo	*oppressed
18:52	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: fwiw asciilifeform walked all around the town, at ~all hrs, not only not stabbed but not even insulted, by orcs
18:53	BingoBoingo	Right, because why when the local orcs themselves are the softest targets
18:53	asciilifeform	i suspect it takes some serious effort to get stabbed in BingoBoingostan
18:54	BingoBoingo	It appears to take the occurrence of a serious cascade of failure.
18:55	BingoBoingo	And most of the self identified repeat victims don't recieve more than whatever bumps were necessary to abscond with their shit
18:59	asciilifeform	whatcha up to these days, shinohai
19:00	BingoBoingo	Ah, here's the latest on the floater https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/novia-del-joven-asesinado-en-parque-rodo-nadie-nace-chorro-no-se-combate-la-violencia-con-mas-violencia--2018103121250
19:00	shinohai	Heya asciilifeform .... stopped in to grab some keyz from deedbot, gonna try and update my trb with yer patches
19:00	trinque	I've lived in some pretty terrible shitholes, always seems that the ones that get picked out on the street wanted to be, on some level
19:01	trinque	hola shinohai
19:01	shinohai	hola trinque que hay de bueno?
19:02	trinque	hackin up the rest of this loser flu that stood no chance.
19:02	trinque	yourself?
19:04	shinohai	Just battled a round of that meself and won. Whiskey and limon ^.^
19:10	mircea_popescu	goldenho little red tab next to this one.
19:12	shinohai	Greetings mircea_popescu
19:13	mircea_popescu	heya.
19:17	*	shinohai feels nostalgic watching a trb happily sing along again ....
		~ 2 hours 16 minutes ~
21:34	billymg	hi all, sorry i've been away for a bit. last weekend ended up being a social one and tonight's the first chance i've had to poke around with vtools
21:36	billymg	managed to press vtools and use vdiff to create a patch of the css tweaks for the "default" theme included in mp-wp http://billymg.com/downloads/mp-wp-css-refine.txt
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21:37	billymg	however, it's not including the file hashes in the diff
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21:43	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: soo asciilifeform had a bit of sleep and wakes up and turns out the serpent thing has a twist ending
21:43	asciilifeform	shall i spoil it or not ?
21:45	asciilifeform	hm, loox like he went to sleep, i suppose i'ma spoil it tomorrow...
21:45	asciilifeform	( but yes it's a proper ending, not a 'more studies needed'(tm)(r) )
21:46	*	asciilifeform bbl,meat
		~ 1 hours 3 minutes ~
22:49	phf	http://btcbase.org/log/2018-11-02#1868722 << must be the dreaded ada/c interop. which version of gnat, which os are you using?
22:49	a111	Logged on 2018-11-02 01:37 billymg: however, it's not including the file hashes in the diff
		~ 27 minutes ~
23:16	billymg	hey phf, i'm using my pizarro rockchip as my current workbench
23:17	billymg	i'm very new to all of this, how do i check the version of gnat?
23:19	phf	billymg: did it come pre installed? you can do gnatmake --version for a point of reference
23:20	billymg	ahh, that would be it then. i don't seem to have ada, etc. installed
23:20	billymg	i'll emerge and try again
23:20	phf	wait, but how did you compile it??
23:21	billymg	compile vtools?
23:22	mircea_popescu	this is a great conversation.
23:23	phf	i suspect you only have the first patch applied, which comes with a makefile, and which will indeed produce a vdiff that doesn't know how to hash
23:24	phf	billymg: at the top of your vtools directory, is there a file called "Makefile" and is there are file called "vdiff.gpr"?
23:25	billymg	a Makefile, yes, but don't see a vdiff.gpr
23:26	billymg	i ran `make` after pressing and got a `vdiff` binary, used that one
23:26	billymg	fwiw, i pressed at the keccak.vpatch level
23:30	asciilifeform	billymg: you can't 'emerge' gnat on the rk, the only known arm64 gnat is ave1's, and presently gotta be hand-emplaced
23:30	billymg	got it
23:31	asciilifeform	it's slated for inclusion in cuntoo, so at some point will come standard on rk, but that day not yet come
23:31	billymg	ok, phf, i pressed again at `vdiff_keccak.vpatch`, now i have those files in my vtools directory
23:31	billymg	and make failed with http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/s3mJ4/?raw=true
23:31	asciilifeform	cuz no gnat, lol
23:32	billymg	right haha
23:32	phf	^
23:32	billymg	makes sense nao
23:33	billymg	mircea_popescu: happy i was able to provide a bit of light entertainment
23:33	phf	vtools_genesis is a very reduced gnu diff, which has a place for hash, but doesn't know how to produce one, until either sha or keccak is attached in later patches
23:37	billymg	phf: ty and apologies for the simple questions. definitely learned a few more things about v this evening
23:38	billymg	is this the right place to start reading to get gnat installed? http://ave1.org/2018/building-gnat-on-musl-no-more-usrincludex86_64-linux-gnu/
23:39	asciilifeform	aha
		~ 15 minutes ~
23:54	mircea_popescu	billymg don't take it the wrong way ; nothing wrong with not knowing things. i don't know most of them either.
23:55	mircea_popescu	and isn't it great that our code of conduct prevents me from actually telling you how i feel about the matter. /sarcasm
23:57	mircea_popescu	(somehow the femtards never seem to figure the fucking obvious, "agreeing to be nice" can only possibly result in folger's friendship and no genuine anything to be had anywhere.... god i fucking hate 'em.)
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