Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-10-01 | 2018-10-03 → ↓
00:36 BingoBoingo https://i.imgtc.com/BXAAdct.jpg
~ 30 minutes ~
01:06 BingoBoingo Session keep alive packet not recieved: BingoBoingo to sleep
~ 1 hours 24 minutes ~
02:30 ben_vulpes taking mimisbrunnr down for a spell
~ 23 minutes ~
02:54 mircea_popescu i never heard of obesity miscarriage before.
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~ 2 hours 11 minutes ~
05:05 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-02#1857131 -> afaik obesity does increase risk of miscarriage
05:05 a111 Logged on 2018-10-02 06:54 mircea_popescu: i never heard of obesity miscarriage before.
~ 39 minutes ~
05:44 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856931 -> today works anytime really, just let me know in the logs
05:44 a111 Logged on 2018-10-01 21:14 asciilifeform: diana_coman, mod6 , lobbes , let BingoBoingo & asciilifeform know when is good day to take down yer units and copy contents to new drives.
05:45 diana_coman BingoBoingo, asciilifeform ^
05:45 ben_vulpes http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/2cESi/?raw=true << dns table update
05:46 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-02#1857110 -> if it's anything like mine, it'll be mostly loud complaints from php because "time zone not set!!!" and similar (apparently php version on the RC is too new for its own good)
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05:46 a111 Logged on 2018-10-02 01:45 asciilifeform: btw lobbes in case you care, it's almost all apache error log...
05:48 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-01#1856937 -> yes, please; also yes, can leave the old disk plugged in to see when it dies, why not (iirc there should still be 1 usb2 empty slot on my RC as the other one has an FG)
05:48 a111 Logged on 2018-10-01 21:17 asciilifeform: diana_coman, mod6 , lobbes , also give signal re whether you want the newer iptables-enabled kernel to go on your boot sd , when we take the boxen down ( iirc we already did mod6's )
05:49 diana_coman the thing is though that at any rate, it won't get the same type of use as it did as main disk so I don't know whether much can be found out from that really
05:49 ben_vulpes those reluctant to diddle /etc/hosts without seeing signed material first may: curl --header 'Host: cascadianhacker.com' 216.151.13.77/dns_update.txt
05:49 diana_coman I suspect there might be more to find out from dissection of the thing
~ 3 hours 48 minutes ~
09:38 mircea_popescu i guess im behind the times in obstetrics.
~ 21 minutes ~
09:59 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes updatered, thx
10:06 asciilifeform !Q later tell BingoBoingo lobbes's drive ready to plug
10:06 lobbesbot asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
10:07 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Ty, headed over
10:07 lobbesbot BingoBoingo: Sent 1 minute ago: <asciilifeform> lobbes's drive ready to plug
10:08 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: btw figure out when you want to do yours
10:09 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-02#1857127 << month and a half... whatcha moving it with , mod6? oxcart ?
10:09 a111 Logged on 2018-10-02 03:10 mod6: Lords and Ladies of TMSR~: Update on 216.151.13.78 (The Bitcoin Foundation's 2nd node), this TRB machine will be shutdown tomorrow morning, to be packed up and brought to texas (it's new home). We anticipate this box to come back online on-or-around November 15th.
10:09 mod6 ben_vulpes: I am shutting down 'lovelace' (the second tbf node) now.
10:09 mod6 I have also pulled '216.151.13.78' off of the Advertised Node list.
10:10 mod6 asciilifeform: ben_vulpes is bringing this with him to texas. He said he'd be able to have it up and running in a rack down there by mid-November.
10:10 asciilifeform aa rack not built yet. aite
10:11 * asciilifeform pictures ben_vulpes's texan fort
10:17 asciilifeform meanwhile, in the trb observatory, http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/trb/10_2_ProcessBlock.txt
10:17 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855101 -> it turns out Eulora actually needs precisely this since its communication protocol specifies different lengths of messages, hm
10:17 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 20:37 asciilifeform: yea i can't picture for what might need variable masses in production
10:18 asciilifeform diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851192
10:18 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 14:26 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i wrote the item originally for gossipd experimentations. udp gives a max practical packet length ( what it is , remains to be determined ) and if given proggy's protocol needs variably-sized ones, you can pad with rng.
10:18 asciilifeform afaik there is no practical reason to actually send variable-length udp.
10:18 diana_coman asciilifeform, clients pay for traffic though so dunno
10:19 asciilifeform diana_coman: i dun think there exists still on planet3 an isp that actually charges per-byte
10:19 asciilifeform ( per TB -- yes. per byte afaik no )
10:19 diana_coman it's not the isp, lol; it's eulora-internal because client can choose how much traffic it generates
10:19 diana_coman but if you force it to pad everything to maxlen it's a bit iffy
10:20 diana_coman every time they simply ask for an object you force them to send over 2048 bytes, ugh
10:20 diana_coman there IS some padding, i.e. it's not entirely arbitrary lengths, no
10:20 asciilifeform diana_coman: a frame is a frame, short packets still occupy one,.
10:20 diana_coman but it's variable lengths..
10:21 asciilifeform i.e. it'll still take 1500.
10:21 asciilifeform even if nominal length is 3.
10:21 mircea_popescu diana_coman working on it.
10:21 mircea_popescu SPEC HAS EVOLVED MEANWHILE!
10:21 asciilifeform ultimately it's diana_coman's proggy, not mine, i can only recommend. imho fixed packets make the coad 9000x simpler, and simplify crapola filtration also. but if diana_coman's application absolutely gotta vary the lengths, then do it..
10:22 diana_coman mircea_popescu, cool; well, it's been 4 months being digested hopefully by everyone around so evolution makes sense!
10:22 mircea_popescu yeah.
10:22 mircea_popescu so far, productive activity, but only made it up to 3.
10:22 diana_coman asciilifeform, it certainly makes the code simpler! if only I could always choose by this criteria though...
10:22 diana_coman anyways, will wait to see the updates
10:23 asciilifeform diana_coman: given that you have rsa in there also, how do you intend to make'em shorter ? or is this strictly re the serpent payloads
10:23 mircea_popescu anyway, re "client pays for traffic" -- yes, but message traffic not packet traffic.
10:23 diana_coman asciilifeform, serpent payloads really; rsa is meant for single use when registering with server pretty much
10:23 mircea_popescu padding wouldn't cost in principle, except if crypto produced then entropy costs.
10:23 mircea_popescu but i expect can have client opt to pad with fixnum.
10:23 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: hm if this is so, then i have nfi why you'd want to try an' shorten packets
10:23 diana_coman asciilifeform, the above wasn't clear until now, it's clarified ...now
10:24 mircea_popescu asciilifeform because the largest packet we ~need~ is 16kb
10:24 diana_coman so then hooray
10:24 mircea_popescu and forcing all packets 16kb may lose us on some routes.
10:24 asciilifeform well i did warn, http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855322 , what else i can say.
10:24 a111 Logged on 2018-09-28 15:12 asciilifeform: even if seems that 100% of 2/3-frag packets make it through in 'laboratory' conditions, still gotta remember that the frag reassembly buffer is the ~exact~ equivalent of the pre-trb 'block orphanage'
10:25 mircea_popescu here's the bojum, explained :
10:25 asciilifeform ( if i were writing this proggy, i'd rather http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855329 . )
10:25 a111 Logged on 2018-09-28 15:57 asciilifeform: imho if you want large messages, oughta have own fragger/reasmer, not the ??? in linux/ciscolade
10:26 mircea_popescu 1. server must be able to acquire RSA key of client. 2. the rsa key of client will have to go in a rsa message, because they presumably don't have serpent keys agreed upon ; 3. the payload for one chunk of rsa key is 1960 bytes, fixed ; 4. the size of a key is 3.x such 1960 byte chunks, meaning 4 chunks. 5. the size of a 4 payload message is 16kb.
10:27 mircea_popescu 6. if you pertmit this 16kb item be chunked, you basically rebuild the tcp ddos bs long discussed here. if it has to be in 1 piece, you can always use or discard on sight.
10:27 mircea_popescu so -- eulora MUST have a 16kb packet in its format.
10:27 asciilifeform i'd still rather reasm'em in the proggy itself, rather than baking in a perma-reliance on the linux nonsense. but i suppose is easy to say, but moar work to actually bake.
10:28 mircea_popescu now, if it also has 1 single size, that means the size of all packets is 16kb
10:28 mircea_popescu this seems nutty.
10:28 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nevermind that. to re-asm you gotta keep chunks.
10:28 mircea_popescu how many chunks am i keeping and for how long ?
10:28 asciilifeform right but if you reasm in own proggy, the chunks actually carry the port # and origin ip.
10:28 mircea_popescu so ?
10:28 asciilifeform whereas if you rely on the udp fragger, only 1 in 4 chunks does, and the rest are not mechanically filtrable.
10:29 mircea_popescu what's "here's a list of 2mn unknown ips" buy me ?
10:29 asciilifeform that you can throw out obvious crapola
10:29 asciilifeform and that you can then use fyootoor fragless ip stack . is all.
10:29 mircea_popescu doesn't take so much work to ask me to hold 16gb of chunks.
10:29 diana_coman asciilifeform, but what's the problem with that? client sends and waits (for as long as it wants) for a reply; whenever it has enough of waiting...sends again; until it makes it
10:30 mircea_popescu this must-have magical packet of 16kb is extremely rare -- basically only sent when new client making new account.
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10:30 mircea_popescu if it has to retry a few times not end of world.
10:30 asciilifeform diana_coman: imho i described the problem with using linux's fragger/defragger in sufficient detail, would rather not clutter the log with a repeat
10:30 mircea_popescu meanwhile if every single 13 byte posupdate takes 16kb... that's insanity.
10:30 mod6 ben_vulpes: bitcoind has been stopped, and lovelace has been shutdown with `shutdown -h now`. Feel free to pack it up whenever you're ready. Thanks.
10:32 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: realize that the linux frag reassembler doesn't give you anything near GB buffer
10:32 asciilifeform once you have any substantial traffic density, it'll simply start dropping.
10:32 mircea_popescu nobody here but you is discussing that.
10:32 asciilifeform ( it's a coupla kB typically )
10:33 mircea_popescu my problem is that i can't ~not~ have 2 sizes of udp packets.
10:33 mircea_popescu diana_coman do you see a way out of this ?
10:35 asciilifeform the way i'd do it, is to have e.g. 1400 byte packets , and they're authenticated (e.g. client gets seekrit 512bit turd, and keccak(turd + payload) is a field in those 1400) , and ~then~ there is a flag for whether the packet is part of a e.g. 8 byte sequence that gotta reasm, or not .
10:35 asciilifeform i.e. internal defragger .
10:35 asciilifeform err, not 8 byte, 8 packet
10:35 mircea_popescu asciilifeform and the attacker sends you sequence-1 packets. and you hold them. and as i said, "doesn't take so much work to ask me to hold 16gb of chunks."
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10:35 asciilifeform attacker can't send anyffing unless he has a valid key
10:36 mircea_popescu i am not so interested in holding on to chunks of future.
10:36 mircea_popescu jesus.
10:36 asciilifeform ( he can send, but it gets tossed in O(1) )
10:36 mircea_popescu looky, we're discontinuing this discussion, because you've not taken the time to familiarize with priors and i don't judge it's worth your time to do so, or mine to make you do so.
10:37 asciilifeform my observation is strictly in re linux defragger gives you no way to filter, whereas hand-sewn -- would. but it is not my intention to prevent folx from pissing on erry possible electric fence, i'ma leave it there.
10:38 asciilifeform and pretty sure i grasp the priors. for instance, the proggy i originally wrote the udp thing for, operated in 64kB chunks.
10:44 asciilifeform rereading http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-02#1857215 -- if you actually gotta take 'new rsa key' from allcomers, and there is no way to have'em know a seekrit bitstring prior , then yes afaik it is impossible to do better than mircea_popescu's algo. ( it is unclear to me what's to prevent enemy from swamping your system with new acct requests and giving you 9000 TB of rsa keys to store, but possibly i missed a detail )
10:44 a111 Logged on 2018-10-02 14:30 mircea_popescu: this must-have magical packet of 16kb is extremely rare -- basically only sent when new client making new account.
10:44 mircea_popescu right!
10:44 mircea_popescu see ? it's not that i hate you, but we gotta talk of the same things to talk to any sort of productive end.
10:45 asciilifeform no i get it
10:46 mircea_popescu here's the bojum with that : soner or later, you gotta meet new people. the DEFINITION of "new people" is "no way to secret prior". so...
10:46 asciilifeform right
10:46 asciilifeform i'd have a separate box for new acct regs, that eats rsagrams..
10:46 mircea_popescu server as it stands now doesn't talk to any new people, hence the "talk to mp" thing in client.
10:46 asciilifeform ( or at least separate nic )
10:47 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the problem degrades gracefully : even if you do have shared rsa key, client sometimes wants to send serpent keys (which go to rsa) and some other times wants to send plain cruft (goes to serpent). so two sizes again
10:47 mircea_popescu i can't have as many interfaces as packet types for crying out loud.
10:48 asciilifeform as i currently understand, the only non-negotiably 'heavy' one is the new acct packet
10:48 asciilifeform so there are 2 fundamental types
10:49 asciilifeform ( the serpent packets are constrained to simply multiples of 128 )
10:50 mircea_popescu well, rsa packets are 4096 bits multiple ; serpent packets are multiples of 128. rsa key exchange is 16kb fix.
10:50 asciilifeform so this'd easily cut into 1 process that eats always 4096bit, and another that eats 16kb.
10:51 asciilifeform ( serpent can pad into 4096 )
10:52 mircea_popescu yes but i can't possibly turn http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855277 into 4096 bit and live.
10:52 a111 Logged on 2018-09-28 05:07 Mocky: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855218 >> players in sight of each other, all getting position updates for all others is *THE* central scaling 'n squared problem' for mmo. 20 byte position sent 4 times per second to 100 players is 8k/s per player. and 4 updates per second is really not enough for good playability when you factor in the round trip lag. 15/s is less draconian (many games send 30-60). 100 players gathered with 15 updates
10:52 mircea_popescu heck, im currently proud i took that 20 down to 13.
10:52 asciilifeform 4096bit is 512byte, you're sending 1500 frame always, even if your nominal packet is 3bytes long. simply how ethernet worx.
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10:53 asciilifeform i.e. the space saving is illusory.
10:53 asciilifeform this is that 'bit-packing variables' thing all over again.
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10:54 mircea_popescu jesus christ you're right aren't you.
10:54 asciilifeform aha! i dun hate mircea_popescu's algo because his name starts with m!111 i simply rtfm'd...
10:55 asciilifeform ( and peeked at what actually moves down my wire.. )
10:55 asciilifeform anyway i'ma bbl, meat.
10:56 mircea_popescu it's funny how "optimization" lures the mind.
11:08 Mocky if you accept 16k new-acct packets seems just as easy to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-02#1857229 but further, if you rely on external frag-reassm it's even easier for attacker to prevent you from accepting *any* new account packets
11:08 a111 Logged on 2018-10-02 14:35 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform and the attacker sends you sequence-1 packets. and you hold them. and as i said, "doesn't take so much work to ask me to hold 16gb of chunks."
11:10 Mocky frag reassembly in-program can use a buffer of specified size, just as is done externally. so excess chunk memory overhead is known up front
11:24 Mocky http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-02#1857260 I see anything like this in the logs, do you have a link?
11:24 a111 Logged on 2018-10-02 14:53 asciilifeform: this is that 'bit-packing variables' thing all over again.
11:24 Mocky *don't see*
11:36 mircea_popescu Mocky http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-18#1851193 or http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-22#1742261 or http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1738259 or etc.
11:36 a111 Logged on 2018-09-18 14:27 mircea_popescu: what it is is certainly <1kb say. wasting the occasional portion of a kb is not so unlike wasting the occasional portion of a 64 bit register to represent a boolean value.
11:36 a111 Logged on 2017-11-22 23:03 mircea_popescu: it's bullshit all the way down, "the 4096 bit block gets cut into 16 sub blocks to be fit into rotorizers that cut each block into 64 bits and process with their 4 bit s boxes". because we're from the fucking cartoons.
11:36 a111 Logged on 2017-11-14 20:35 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform typical pc has the following situation : 64 bit registers, 128 bit memory, 1024 bit disk sectors, 64 mb video buffers, and atop sitting a drunk driver who thinks 8 bits are a byte.
11:38 Mocky ah ok, thx
11:40 mircea_popescu there's more, somewhere i say "meanwhile people figured out the complexity's not worth the saving" and etc. recurrent topic.
11:42 diana_coman Mocky, if I get this right you argue that it's better to do frag internally because can't trust externally to not fuck up the line entirely as attack vector?
11:42 Mocky yes
11:43 mircea_popescu um.
11:45 Mocky e.g. attacker floods with packet frags prevents legitimate frags from ever being reassembled, instead silently dropped, server is none the wiser
11:45 mircea_popescu there are no frags.
11:46 diana_coman he is talking of the new rsa packets that are biggest
11:46 diana_coman so will get presumably fragged
11:46 mircea_popescu iirc 20kb packets made it over test
11:46 Mocky 16k packet -> 1500 MTU
11:46 diana_coman but honestly I don't see that to be such a huge problem
11:46 mircea_popescu Mocky 16kbits, you realise.
11:46 Mocky nope, missed that
11:47 mircea_popescu 4x rsa chunk. 2048 bytes.
11:47 mircea_popescu and in our tests, we saw unfragged 20-50kB packets.
11:48 diana_coman mircea_popescu, uhm, they made it through - presumably fragged though?
11:48 mircea_popescu ie, mtu is two things : no smaller frame shall issue from interface ; and larger packets MAY (but don't have to) travel as multiple frames.
11:48 mircea_popescu diana_coman well, possibly. iirc we didn't specifically check for that.
11:48 diana_coman precisely; I think that in principle there is a possibility of that "attack" but I fail to see that it's worth much really
11:49 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: there are no frames bigger than 1500 ( aside from exotic lans )
11:49 diana_coman so basically what, for as long as attacker can keep flooding , presumably no new accounts although there might still be some that make it through?
11:49 asciilifeform your heavies got fragged & reasmed by receiver
11:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform so interface silently and timely reassembled 50kb packet out of 30 fragments ?
11:49 asciilifeform yes
11:49 mircea_popescu pretty good.
11:50 mircea_popescu anyway, i have no intention to deal with udp flood at gameserver level.
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11:50 Mocky I'd expect frag and auto reassemble to work well in low volume conditions
11:50 asciilifeform try it with saturated receiver tho.
11:50 asciilifeform Mocky: errything worx great with quiet volume.
11:50 mircea_popescu of course... if we used smaller rsa keys we could fit in the mtu...
11:51 diana_coman eulora-sized rsa, hm
11:51 mircea_popescu but i mean... it's for a reason, not just cuz bored.
11:51 mircea_popescu i mean, really, 2048, not 1460 ? written in heavens or what ?
11:54 mircea_popescu suppose i make the rsa packet 1498 bytes. this then means 2996 bit rsa. problem ?
11:56 Mocky well including udp header, like 1470 to 1480 of payload available
11:56 asciilifeform afaik it's not unlike diff b/w a 25 and 50 megatonne nyook
11:56 asciilifeform i.e. large on paper, but ~sams physical effect
11:56 asciilifeform *same
11:58 diana_coman from a practical point of view it does mean that Eulora doesn't use directly TMSR RSA keys though
12:08 mircea_popescu im not sure anyone'd want to use his main key for this anyway
12:09 mircea_popescu but yes, as far as anyone knows 2048 bit keys perfectly safe, now and for the foreseable future (this isn't a comment on koch faux-pgp, which unsafe at any length as well documented in logs qntra and so on).
12:09 diana_coman yes; anyway it's basically a knob to turn, not a big issue in itself
12:09 asciilifeform fwiw asciilifeform is still sitting on top of a 2048b main key
12:09 mircea_popescu i'm going to re-write the rewrite of comms protocol with this new paradigm.
12:09 asciilifeform ( will move when finally kerosene poured on gpg )
12:10 mircea_popescu let's calculate this precisely. so what size is my actual payload here, 1468 reliably ?
12:11 mircea_popescu ( and btw diana_coman it's entirely possible this will mean republic might well inherit the format, seeing how the problem we are dealing with isn't of our own make -- others will run into it too.)
12:12 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 1500(ethernet frame) - 20 byte (ip header) - 8 byte == 1472
12:12 asciilifeform ( 1472 remains for programmable payload )
12:12 mircea_popescu am i absurd in wanting to start from 1499 rather than 1500 ?
12:13 asciilifeform i can't think of why, but it dun do any harm afaik
12:13 mircea_popescu sure it do harm, you lose on some bytes.
12:13 asciilifeform the nic will simply insert a 0 octet
12:13 asciilifeform well yes, in that sense.
12:14 mircea_popescu alright then, ima put 1472 bytes helo packet ; meaning 2944 bit rsa keys.
12:14 Mocky 1472 is what i've used in the past
12:14 asciilifeform Mocky: it's the theoretical max udp-over-ethernet aha
12:14 asciilifeform ( not taking into consideration weirdo lans with 'jumbo' nics etc )
12:16 mircea_popescu diana_coman 2944 bit rsa keys, meaning 1384 bit usable message space in the rsa packet ? with oaep and everything ?
12:17 mircea_popescu !Qcalc 2944 / 1384
12:17 lobbesbot mircea_popescu: 2.12716763006
12:19 mircea_popescu holy shit, what if i can shave it down to 3x ?!
12:19 mircea_popescu !Qcalc 1472/3
12:19 lobbesbot mircea_popescu: 490.666666667
12:19 Mocky http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-02#1857302 >> still will be filtering incoming UDP by known IPs and preferred serpent keys though anyway, correct?
12:19 a111 Logged on 2018-10-02 15:50 mircea_popescu: anyway, i have no intention to deal with udp flood at gameserver level.
12:19 mircea_popescu Mocky nope, by size.
12:20 mircea_popescu rsa-size and serpent-size packets handled, rest discarded (and sources punished)
12:21 Mocky ok but if size matches still have to attempt decryption even if contains garbage?
12:21 mircea_popescu yes.
12:21 mircea_popescu !Qcalc 1472/128
12:21 lobbesbot mircea_popescu: 11.5
12:22 asciilifeform i expect decryptions will be the principal cpu expense of running a rsatronic box. at least until the fyootoor day of fpga etc
12:22 mircea_popescu possibru
12:22 asciilifeform fortunately they parallelize linearly
12:22 mircea_popescu the thing is -- new accounts handled "as resources permit" anyway, so...
12:22 asciilifeform ( farm out to as many cores as you like )
12:25 mircea_popescu ok, so this back of a digital envelope seems to suggest we want : 1. fixed size 1470 byte rsa packets, made to work with 3920-bit rsa (of which i presume the useful message size to be 1872 bit, diana_coman plox to confirm maffs ?). such a packet has then 1696 bits spare for e and bullshit.
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12:26 mircea_popescu 2. fixed size 1408 byte serpent packets.
12:29 diana_coman mircea_popescu, 1872 useful bits in 3920-bit rsa, confirmed
12:36 mircea_popescu is serpent 128 bits or 128 bytes ?
12:38 mircea_popescu bits so then
12:38 mircea_popescu 2. fixed size 1472 byte serpent packets.
12:38 diana_coman bits, yes
12:38 mircea_popescu yuppers. 1470 vs 1472, pretty as can be.
12:39 diana_coman ha, quite
12:48 mircea_popescu in other very sads, the new p.bvulpes machine is VERY fucking slow.
12:51 mircea_popescu * About to connect() to p.bvulpes.com port 80 (#0)
12:51 mircea_popescu * Trying 51.15.42.105... Connection timed out
~ 37 minutes ~
13:28 ben_vulpes that's odd, i'll look
13:29 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes nah, no need, by now i mostly suspect my route was bad.
13:29 ben_vulpes i was going to ask for a traceroute
13:29 ben_vulpes mod6: ack
13:34 asciilifeform lobbes: plox to confirm when satisfied that your rk worx correctly
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~ 18 minutes ~
13:53 deedbot http://bimbo.club/?p=38 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 9/28/2018
13:54 asciilifeform 'Asciilifeform would never recommend the use of 'rsa chips' as they work with only 'toy' key lengths, work in one direction, and have to be manually transported' << agh what
13:55 asciilifeform ~pigeons~ manually transported, nicoleci
13:58 mircea_popescu !!up nicoleci
13:58 deedbot nicoleci voiced for 30 minutes.
13:58 mircea_popescu meanwhile @birdcage, "<nicoleci> im getting so frusterated with these logs <mircea_popescu> yssat ? <nicoleci> i understand every 45th line"
13:58 asciilifeform lol i wouldn't have guessed that it'd be ~that~ line..
13:59 asciilifeform i thought pigeon were universal.
13:59 mircea_popescu she didn't go to kindergarten.
13:59 asciilifeform ( my local ww1 aviation museum has entire glass case of stuffed 'famous' carrier pigeons. so they defo know about'em in usa... )
14:00 mircea_popescu chick's injun, they got their own schools.
14:00 asciilifeform same place where they have the bed the wrights slept in, the shitter they shat in, etc
14:00 asciilifeform lolk
14:04 nicoleci im not going to make excuses for not connecting the pigeon talk, but no fucking clue what http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-28#1855365 means
14:04 a111 Logged on 2018-09-28 16:21 asciilifeform: and i'ma never recommend to anyone the use of heathen 'rsa chips'. not even because they all, without exception, work with only 'toy' key lengths, but because srsly wtf.
14:04 lobbesbot nicoleci: Sent 16 hours and 5 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> s/to/too
14:05 mircea_popescu nicoleci rsa keys are useless when the key is short. do you understand how rsa works ?
14:06 nicoleci mircea_popescu: not at all.
14:06 mircea_popescu alright. can you tell me the prime factors of the number 6 ?
14:16 nicoleci ah 1,2,3,6
14:17 mircea_popescu ok. 1 and 6 we ignore, as they're trivial for our exercise.
↖
14:17 mircea_popescu now, can you tell me the non-trivial prime factors of 221 ? (but without looking anywhere online).
14:18 nicoleci lol, no
14:19 mircea_popescu can you tell me what's 13 * 17 ?
14:20 nicoleci 221
↖
14:20 mircea_popescu right. this is then the rsa problem : it is relatively easy to multiply prime numbers ; it is exceedingly difficult to get them back out of the multiplicated soup
14:21 mircea_popescu this is especially true the larger the prime numbers become. rsa uses this disparity to produce an undefeatable encryptio scheme. the two prime factors (13, 17) are the private (ie, secret) key. their product (221) is the public key.
14:21 mircea_popescu some clever bits of math permit one to encrypt a message with the use of that 221 so that only he who knows 13 * 17 =221 can ever get it back out.
14:22 nicoleci ahh i see
14:22 mircea_popescu yw.
14:23 BingoBoingo Ah, slave priviledge in action. Countless ninjashoguns weep as the combination of right behavior and right parts allows the priviledged to learn in hallowed logs.
14:23 BingoBoingo #WoTInAction
14:24 nicoleci yeah thanks, Master. privilege in knowledge, torture in a chromebook
14:28 mircea_popescu http://trilema.com/2018/euloras-communication-protocol-restated/ << republished to significant change ; diana_coman Mocky asciilifeform an' whoever else may be interested. comments welcome!
14:30 deedbot http://qntra.net/2018/10/university-of-brighton-takes-ambiguous-position-on-program-supporting-coed-to-gentlemen-connections/ << Qntra - University Of Brighton Takes Ambiguous Position On Program Supporting Coed To Gentlemen Connections
14:31 mircea_popescu ahaha
14:31 mircea_popescu the 1 in 6 far exceeds the 1 in 20 or so females worth the fucking in ~anyone's estimation.
14:32 BingoBoingo And yet 100% of them are only 19 once
14:37 BingoBoingo Meanwhile from other mines: "I’m active in supporting LGBT causes. My boyfriend recently said that “this whole LGBT thing has gone way too far” and that he’s no longer sure what to think about same-sex marriage, even though he had thought he supported it. Worse, he said that maybe the original civil rights movement went too far, and perhaps businesses should be allowed to racially discriminate if they want to. In fairnes
↖
14:37 BingoBoingo s, that was in response to me pointing to that as a precedent for LGBT rights, but I’m not sure that makes it better. I’m just aghast. How can I make him see how wrong he is?"
14:37 * asciilifeform loox at mircea_popescu's item..
14:38 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: is the 20 may date intentional ?
14:38 Mocky original pub date
14:38 asciilifeform aaaah edited aite
14:39 mircea_popescu right.
14:41 mircea_popescu BingoBoingo doh. let's check back with the aghast lonely hearts club when we're discussing how business can keep slaves (ie, them) if they feel like it.
14:41 asciilifeform 'n*(4*int64 + int32) (32 bytes each key followed by a 4 byte ID calculated as the keccak hash of the key itself)' << unless i misread, how does one get a 4byte output from keccak ?
14:42 mircea_popescu by setting it to spit out 4 byte output ?
14:43 asciilifeform does diana_coman's keccak do this ? ( aside from the q of what does a 32bit hash output win, it aint exactly hard to collide into a desired 32bit regardless of how you make hash algo.. )
14:43 mircea_popescu but this'd be a collision inside an encrypted packet.
14:43 asciilifeform so moar of a checksum ?
14:43 mircea_popescu im really only using it as an adhoc crc ; possibly should either get rid of it altogether, or implement a proper ec.
14:43 asciilifeform aaah so not asked to be resistant, aite
14:43 mircea_popescu ya
14:44 asciilifeform i'd use ordinary crc32 for such item, much cheaper cpuwise
14:44 mircea_popescu in ~principle~ eve can't even know what serpent keys either server or client are using.
14:44 asciilifeform right
14:44 mircea_popescu but yes, i am seriousl;y considering this.
14:44 * asciilifeform reads the other moving parts...
14:45 asciilifeform 'text, consisting of int32 (keccak hash of top level itemxviii)' << i assume ditto
14:45 mircea_popescu anyways, i shall now torture girls @ beach. will read all comments and everything tonite.
14:45 asciilifeform and in 4.8 same
14:45 asciilifeform aite
14:46 asciilifeform i dun get how 'int8 (equal to 18364757930599072545' worx
14:47 asciilifeform on my planet, 'int8' means 8 bits
14:47 asciilifeform int16 - 16, int32 -- 32, int64 -- 64
14:48 * asciilifeform bbl,meat; will come back to this item
14:53 diana_coman asciilifeform, keccak can spit out as many or as few bits as you want it to, not sure what is you q there re keccak
↖
14:54 diana_coman your*
14:56 diana_coman specifically, bit-level version gives bit-level precision so one can ask for as many bits as they want; workhorse byte-level keccak implementation works at byte-level so it will spit out as many *bytes* as you ask for (see http://www.dianacoman.com/2018/02/08/eucrypt-chapter-9-byte-order-and-bit-disorder-in-keccak/#selection-193.1-197.51 )
15:05 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-02#1857391 -> lol, they are also just... not prime
15:05 a111 Logged on 2018-10-02 18:17 mircea_popescu: ok. 1 and 6 we ignore, as they're trivial for our exercise.
~ 18 minutes ~
15:23 diana_coman http://trilema.com/2018/euloras-communication-protocol-restated/#comment-126805 - waiting in the queue
15:37 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-02#1857438 << ok i wasn't sure whether diana_coman's keccak knew how to output arbitrary bitness. but my other point was that a 32bit hash may as well be crc32, there can be no notion of collision resistance when yer output is 32b.
15:37 a111 Logged on 2018-10-02 18:53 diana_coman: asciilifeform, keccak can spit out as many or as few bits as you want it to, not sure what is you q there re keccak
15:39 asciilifeform diana_coman: can you clarify re the 'int8' thing plox ?
15:44 diana_coman asciilifeform, int8 is indeed meant to be on 8 bits so no idea what that thing there is ; fwiw I added it to my comment on the article with ref to your q here in the logs too because I'm puzzled by it too
15:45 diana_coman re collision yes, it's clearly not collision-resistant
15:45 diana_coman the eucrypt keccak implementation uses an out parameter for output and so it will fill whatever the caller provides
~ 41 minutes ~
16:27 ben_vulpes http://archive.fo/WeQ7Q << ruralia continues to deliver lulz: "booby trapped wheelchair", "hot tub attached to tripwire" "elder abuse"
16:29 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: poor idjit. could've set up proper dynamite, not as if he could sizzle in electric chair twice.
16:31 asciilifeform '.410-guage shotgun pellet' lol.
16:31 ben_vulpes sad fate to be remembered for failing to take out agents of the imperium given ~unlimited time and inclination to prepare.
↖
16:31 asciilifeform Fuck Moar Cousins, i guess..
16:32 ben_vulpes the many sleepless nights of the rural amphet didn't help.
16:34 asciilifeform between rotgut, dope, 6 generations of fucked cousin, mcfood -- not much chance left for brain
~ 30 minutes ~
17:04 deedbot http://bingology.net/2018/10/02/haiku-r1beta1-thoughts/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog - Haiku R1/beta1 Thoughts
17:09 asciilifeform http://bingology.net/2018/10/02/haiku-r1beta1-thoughts/comment-page-1/#comment-504 << BingoBoingo
17:21 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: replied
17:22 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: loox like they lifted various drivers from freebsd, since i last saw
17:23 BingoBoingo Other parts as well.
17:24 asciilifeform so in effect it's freebsd but with an oddball incompatible thing in place of x11
17:24 asciilifeform sorta like an open sores crapple.
17:24 BingoBoingo Well, the microkernel thing is different
17:25 asciilifeform still massive ball o' C
17:25 asciilifeform hence 'like crapple'
17:25 BingoBoingo Sure. Its the sort of thing you'd stick in a lobby to let people check the weather.
17:25 BingoBoingo Or throw on a video playing box
17:25 asciilifeform i'd stick a kernel that dun crash on these..
17:27 asciilifeform and ugggh c++ kernel...
17:27 asciilifeform ( https://github.com/haiku/haiku/tree/master/src/system/kernel << behold and shudder )
17:27 BingoBoingo ugh
17:28 asciilifeform reminds me of 'reactos' ( another oddball 'man alone' item; believe or not : attempt to open sores re-create... winblowz )
17:32 BingoBoingo The big difference between Haiku and ReactOS is in Haiku spreading works (TM)(R). Reactos hasn't made it that far yet.
17:33 asciilifeform spreading worx pretty easily when you lift all of the iron-specific C hairballs from existing open sores
17:33 asciilifeform the q is, what is gained thereby
17:36 BingoBoingo novelty
17:38 asciilifeform possibly i find novelty 'for sake of novelty' to not be auto-attractive; but imho these folx took the same baccilae that made microshit what it is ( cpp kernel, kernelized gui, 'desktopization' ) and somehow supposed that it'd add up to different result than microshit's..
17:39 asciilifeform ( and on top of this imported the worst gnarl from freebsd... )
17:40 asciilifeform seems like there's even 1990s liquishit from the original 'beos' in there.
17:41 BingoBoingo Well, it isn't novelty for the sake of novelty. Novelty for the sake of highlighting how broken Ubuntu is.
17:42 BingoBoingo This piece of weird with all of its flaws... still works better than Ubuntu
17:42 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: even win10 loox pretty good when laid next to shituntu.
17:42 asciilifeform on just about erry metric..
17:43 BingoBoingo Never tried it myself
17:43 asciilifeform wasn't an invitation to try it, lol. but statement of phakt.
17:44 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: i strongly suspect that a box that smoothly runs the haiku thing will also run freebsd..
17:44 trinque huh, I ran one of the early x86 Be versions for a bit, didn't hate.
17:44 asciilifeform trinque: i dun hate. but gotta point out what it is.
17:44 trinque but yes, can't disagree with asciilifeform
17:45 BingoBoingo It ran openbsd fine, runs a linux fine now, FreeBSD was flakey last time I tried it on this one
17:45 asciilifeform at least terry davis was straightforward about not having iron drivers.
17:46 asciilifeform he refrained from importing world's 2nd gnarliest shitstack.
17:47 asciilifeform i favour folx who are honest, 'i dun have drivers', over gabriel_laddels
17:48 BingoBoingo Well, Uncle Terry is the Saint everyone thought Linus was
17:48 trinque pbuh
17:50 BingoBoingo Terry didn't let his daughter's feelz get in the way of his cause
↖
~ 1 hours 33 minutes ~
19:24 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: i suppose that's 1 way to 'saint' -- skipping straight to face to face with odin..
19:24 BingoBoingo TempleOS does exactly as advertised
19:25 BingoBoingo And now terry in in Valhala for it
19:26 * BingoBoingo curious if gabriel ever got that amputation
19:26 asciilifeform meanwhile, in trb observatory, http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/trb/10_2_moar_ProcessBlock.txt << caught up..
19:26 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: for all i know he got head amputation.
19:27 BingoBoingo Or maybe got adlai'd into a rehab
19:28 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: is 186.50.24.80 , castle BingoBoingostein ?
19:29 BingoBoingo It doesn't appear to be at the moment, but it could have been
19:29 asciilifeform aah dynamic
19:29 asciilifeform aite
19:30 asciilifeform ( i have dynamic here also, for some reason local fuckheads want 2x the dough to make static. but it changes 1-2x / year, thus far i live with it )
19:31 BingoBoingo Here dynamic means dynamic
19:33 BingoBoingo It's also possible there's another trb node I haven't put my own eyes on running on a residential connection in this country
19:33 asciilifeform i've been thinking i oughta conjure up moar trb nodez, but erry time i sit down and look to do it, end up thinking 'why give money to heathen derps'. but on other hand it dun do much good to put 9000 nodes all in pizarro. but to which heathen can give moneys without retching..
19:35 asciilifeform trinque's asian noad seems to be well-behaved
19:35 asciilifeform but it for same reason as stated earlier it wouldn't do so much good if i put a noad in same place
19:36 asciilifeform so presently i end up shelving the idea erry time it makes circle round my conveyor
↖
19:37 asciilifeform sooo if anybody ( mircea_popescu ? diana_coman ? ) knows of some place that 1) isn't complete shit 2) doesn't have a trb noad living there yet -- plox to write in.
19:38 asciilifeform ( ideally : on some ~continent~ that dun have one yet, imho )
19:39 asciilifeform diana_coman: do you have one back in 'old blightey' ? or know of a place there where i oughta put one
↖
19:39 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Have an eta on when to do the diana_coman switch?
19:39 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: how about nao.
19:39 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Aite, lemme put pants on
19:39 BingoBoingo And finish this balcony coffee
19:40 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: i'ma meatspace for ~20min, should give you enuff time for leg
19:40 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: when you get to the dc, feel free to pull lobbes's drive from dulap ( label it ) and insert 1) first, diana_coman's 2) 30sec later, the new
~ 20 minutes ~
20:01 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: ping me in #p when ready.
~ 36 minutes ~
20:37 asciilifeform !Q later tell diana_coman your rk is redisked! and running; you may want to stand up yer www server (iirc it doesn't run on boot)
20:37 lobbesbot asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
20:38 asciilifeform diana_coman , lobbes : your old drives are currently in dulap, lemme know when you're ready to have'em reformatted ( so your boxen dun try an' boot from'em instead of the primary ) and reissued to you as secondary disks.
↖
20:38 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: i think this is all for today in the bilge
20:38 BingoBoingo Aite, coming up
20:38 asciilifeform ty BingoBoingo !
20:38 asciilifeform a+++ as usual.
20:48 lobbes http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-02#1857370 << I can confirm rk is working. ty!
20:48 a111 Logged on 2018-10-02 17:34 asciilifeform: lobbes: plox to confirm when satisfied that your rk worx correctly
20:48 lobbes http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-02#1857138 << I can also confirm that this was exaaactly what was in my 40gb error log.. oof (btw ty asciilifeform for teh heads-up)
20:48 a111 Logged on 2018-10-02 09:46 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-02#1857110 -> if it's anything like mine, it'll be mostly loud complaints from php because "time zone not set!!!" and similar (apparently php version on the RC is too new for its own good)
20:48 * asciilifeform bbl,meat
20:49 asciilifeform oh btw, lobbes & diana_coman , dun forget to set your rk's clocks.
20:49 * asciilifeform genuinely bbl
~ 1 hours 16 minutes ~
22:05 BingoBoingo tyvm
~ 18 minutes ~
22:23 lobbes http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-03#1857528 << forgot to respond to this, but you have my a-ok to reformat old drive. and thank you gentlemen for the smooth swap
22:23 a111 Logged on 2018-10-03 00:38 asciilifeform: diana_coman , lobbes : your old drives are currently in dulap, lemme know when you're ready to have'em reformatted ( so your boxen dun try an' boot from'em instead of the primary ) and reissued to you as secondary disks.
22:24 lobbes (obligatory pizarro pitch to log readers: where else can you have 100% context on -why- service is being done on your box, as well as watch it unfold real-time? Compare and contrast with, say, this example from heathenlandia (Edis) >> http://archive.is/NVpIR)
~ 36 minutes ~
23:01 mircea_popescu ikr!
23:03 mircea_popescu the incredible transparency they got going is actually a very strong selling point
23:04 mircea_popescu just needs packaging & being market communicated.
23:18 trinque "we slay incas" while cute, communicates nothing except "you're not in the in-group"
↖
23:19 trinque oughta say something about why the fuck someone wants a republican ISP
~ 20 minutes ~
23:39 asciilifeform trinque: yea the inca thing is placeholder
23:40 asciilifeform trinque: the text to answer 'wai republican isp' exists, unfortunately it's a coupla hundr MB, aka.. the l0gz
23:40 asciilifeform if can think of a way to conpress!
23:41 asciilifeform ( pretty hard, imho, to even begin in language heathens might understand.. )
↖
23:41 asciilifeform *compress
23:42 trinque I'd lean hard on the "we're humans" thing, communicate that
23:42 trinque somebody wants to know what makes an actual human later, great for him
23:44 trinque i.e. there's this fine gentleman BingoBoingo actually in the bowls of the machine, steadfastly giving a shit.
23:45 trinque polymath madman assembling world's only sane ARM hosting, etc
23:46 BingoBoingo Condensing these logs into marketing is a thing being pondered
23:48 * BingoBoingo returns from doing the necessary work of walking the beach at night and tormenting the Peruana by reporting how incredibly safe and secure it was
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