Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-09-28 | 2018-09-30 → ↓
00:08 mircea_popescu not bad!
00:09 mod6 good to hear, Sir.
00:11 mod6 I think you must have an iron stomach -- the ability to publish such specimens of humans and not barf outright.
00:12 mod6 (maybe you did, who am i to judge. lol)
00:14 * mod6 nearly jumped into a bathtub with a toaster
00:15 mod6 And it was her legs that got me, I think.
00:15 * mod6 pukes in a corner
00:22 mod6 sweet, trb is done
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00:22 mod6 this thing -just works-.
00:22 mod6 gotta love it
00:28 mod6 I literally can load the entire block chain in like 8-9 days.
00:28 mod6 -caneat is where it's at.
~ 1 hours 1 minutes ~
01:30 mircea_popescu ducks love eating vomit
01:33 mod6 heheh
~ 1 hours 25 minutes ~
02:58 mod6 does anyone here hunt ducks?
~ 17 minutes ~
03:15 mircea_popescu mod6 http://thewhet.net/2018/09/the-appropriately-proportioned-ballad-of-chimichurri/ !!11
~ 17 minutes ~
03:33 * mod6 looks
03:37 mod6 I like this duck with his dubloons. may his wings carry him swift, and his feet paddle him apt.
~ 42 minutes ~
04:19 mircea_popescu idoubt it'll ever fly, domestic duck as it is.
04:19 mircea_popescu but plox not to hunt anyways, ty!
~ 7 hours 2 minutes ~
11:22 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> but plox not to hunt anyways, ty! << Excellent use of WoT. Ensuring particular duck lives.
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~ 1 hours 22 minutes ~
12:44 BingoBoingo And in the Encouraging News department: Trump can win in Uruguayo Courts Too! https://www.elobservador.com.uy/nota/quedo-sin-efecto-demanda-laboral-en-uruguay-contra-los-trump-201892912227
~ 3 hours 20 minutes ~
16:05 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855554 << bwhahaha.
16:05 a111 Logged on 2018-09-29 15:22 BingoBoingo: <mircea_popescu> but plox not to hunt anyways, ty! << Excellent use of WoT. Ensuring particular duck lives.
16:06 deedbot http://bimbo.club/?p=33 << Bimbo.Club - TMSR Log Summary - 9/24/2018
16:12 asciilifeform ohai mircea_popescu
~ 1 hours 7 minutes ~
17:20 asciilifeform ACHTUNG, panzers ! trb node zoolag will be down for approx 20min for experimental patch bringup, starting 5min from nao.
~ 39 minutes ~
17:59 mircea_popescu how goes.
18:10 asciilifeform grr jurov , 'Signature verification on clearsigned text failed, discarding. Review the message in your sent mail folder for wordwrap or similar mutilations of clearsigned text.'
18:10 asciilifeform and i used the www box !!
18:11 asciilifeform hrm, pasting the txt worked...
18:11 asciilifeform ACHTUNG, panzers!!! http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-September/000312.html << .
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18:13 asciilifeform !Q later tell phf plox to snarf http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-September/000312.html and the predecessor ( mod6's http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-September/000311.html ) into 'experimental'
18:13 lobbesbot asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
18:16 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: item's been on conveyor for a while, will be interesting to shed some light on who's hero and who's zero.
18:16 asciilifeform currently live on zoolag.
18:17 mircea_popescu nb
18:19 asciilifeform prolly oughta also print the peer version hdrs, but that can go in the regrind.
18:19 asciilifeform currently not so hard to see who is 1 of us and who not
18:20 asciilifeform this experiment will work 9000x better once there's several trb folx other than asciilifeform doing it, cuz learning 'block x came from... this-here trb noad' dun tell me much, it'd be useful to know where ~he~ got it, etc
18:21 asciilifeform prelude to actually rebaking the coad that does the address-collectin' (so to prefer folx who actually supply blox, to the dead weight people )
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18:23 asciilifeform i'ma post some grep ProcessBlock debug.log > whogave.txt once it runs for a spell.
18:26 asciilifeform imho set of addrs advertised actively with peers oughta consist solely of 1) people noad operator manually -addnode'd + 2) peers who actually sent in valid blox in recent past
18:26 asciilifeform ( see linked thread. )
18:27 asciilifeform right nao this set consists 99.999....+% of rando liquishit.
18:28 asciilifeform for nao -- simply log'em.
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18:30 mircea_popescu the one useful thing here would be to get trb properly ground already.
18:30 mircea_popescu the current situation is unseemly.
18:31 asciilifeform i'ma guess it's on mod6's conveyor already.
18:33 mircea_popescu mod6 you on it ?
18:34 * asciilifeform bbl:meat
18:44 mircea_popescu meanwhiel in other soviet art, https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/c/cf/Lincoln_Douglas_Debates_1958_issue-4c.jpg
18:48 mod6 hi!
18:48 * mod6 reads the log
18:50 mod6 asciilifeform: ah cool, thank for the post. I'll read/try it when I get a chance.
18:50 mod6 Probably sometime here past month-end.
18:50 mircea_popescu meanwhile in famous speeches,
18:50 mircea_popescu "I am not, nor ever have been, in favor of bringing about in any way the social and political equality of the white and black races, that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbi
18:50 mircea_popescu d the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And in as much as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I as much as any other man am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race. I say upon this occasion I do not perceive that because the white man is to have the superior position the negro should be denied
18:50 mircea_popescu everything. I do not understand that because I do not want a negro woman for a slave I must necessarily want her for a wife. My understanding is that I can just let her alone."
18:50 mircea_popescu (a. lincoln)
18:50 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> the one useful thing here would be to get trb properly ground already. << I'm probably not going to do this until there is a vtron that supports keccak.
18:51 mod6 I want users to be able to get a vtron, as they do now, with v.pl, then build trb in very much the same way they are able to today.
18:51 trinque eh this is no reason to completely halt trb progress meanwhile
18:52 mod6 Why would it be halted?
18:52 mod6 I've been working on it quite a bit.
18:52 trinque I have patches myself which are sitting on the sideline waiting for the manifest, which I was under the impression you're working on
18:52 mod6 No, the manifest was published last week, trinque.
18:52 trinque ah! great! sorry, I missed that
18:52 mod6 Well, there was some issue with the ML message going through, but it's up now.
18:52 trinque got it.
18:53 mod6 http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-September/000311.html
18:53 mod6 I've even got another vpatch I'm about to submit too. Was testing it lastnight, in fact.
18:54 trinque lovely, I'll have to dust off my wallet excision patch and submit too
18:54 trinque ^ not intended for mainline, specific-use branch.
18:54 mod6 Anyway, TRB will live on as SHA512 hashes in vpatches until there is a very clean way to switch. For The Foundation, the switch needs to be very seemless for newbs.
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~ 16 minutes ~
19:11 asciilifeform trinque: manifest is done, i built on it in the experimental item linked earlier
19:12 * trinque sees, was searching for whether not being able to download attachments from ML also slipped by him
19:12 asciilifeform speaking of which, thus far nearly all of zoolag's valid new blox came from one 149.56.19.79
19:12 trinque lolnope, cannot download attachments.
19:13 asciilifeform trinque: they load fine here... do you get eggog ?
19:13 trinque I'm getting a cloudfront error!
19:13 asciilifeform ?!!
19:13 asciilifeform jurov : ??
19:13 asciilifeform jurov: srsly, cloudfront ?!
19:13 mod6 trinque: are you having trouble with the ML?
19:14 mod6 that's weird. it was working better, or so I thought :/
19:14 asciilifeform mod6: i thought it was moved to pizarro ?!
19:14 asciilifeform where the fuck is that thing hosted ?
19:16 mod6 I'm not sure where the mailman front end is hosted.
19:16 mod6 The archive part was moved to the foundation
19:16 mod6 's box at Pizarro.
19:16 asciilifeform mod6: so why is it physically possible for trinque to see cloudfront ?!
19:16 mod6 (at least, I thought so)
19:16 mod6 asciilifeform: I dunno.
19:16 trinque 161.0.121.248 << this appears to be the pizarro box, eh?
19:16 asciilifeform yes
19:16 mod6 jurov: Can you give us an update on all of the above ^?
19:17 asciilifeform trinque: are you behind some peculiar heathen firewall or wat
19:17 trinque per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-01#1846502
19:17 a111 Logged on 2018-09-01 13:13 jurov: Till I set up everything, static mirror of btc-dev mailing list will be here: http://161.0.121.248/ml/btc-dev/
19:17 * asciilifeform brb,meat
19:17 trinque asciilifeform: what do you have for curl 'http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20180923/mod6_excise_hash_truncation.vpatch?sha1=9abdb060135507152b9a5c7c3b8b98966266c5bd'
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19:18 trinque curling instead with the IP works fine over here
19:18 trinque so appears on my end that yes, thing referenced by that domain is on aws
19:18 mod6 i seem to be able to curl that url above, np.
19:19 trinque now I can as well.
19:19 mod6 weird
19:22 trinque http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/bjyXE/?raw=true << not so weird, these all point to cloudfront, amazon's cdn thing
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19:23 trinque that will serve the item if it has it cached, or will otherwise request from the backend, which is apparently faulty
19:23 mircea_popescu * About to connect() to therealbitcoin.org port 80 (#0)
19:23 mircea_popescu * Trying 52.85.74.232... connected
19:24 mircea_popescu ie, amazon isp.
19:24 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855609 << what newbs are these ? the sort of newbs that press from v but not have keccak ?
19:24 a111 Logged on 2018-09-29 22:54 mod6: Anyway, TRB will live on as SHA512 hashes in vpatches until there is a very clean way to switch. For The Foundation, the switch needs to be very seemless for newbs.
19:25 mircea_popescu seems to me the only kind of newb this is is a very old hand determined to sabotage the process. newbs will just take the state of the art.
19:26 mircea_popescu now that we're done with alf's wrecking of the naming convention, gotta deal with mod6 's wrecking of the historical flow ? keccak isn't some fucking optional package on top of mainline usg-provided sha.
19:26 mircea_popescu sha was never fucking mainline. it was an accidental ad-hoc-ism.
19:27 mircea_popescu only existed there AT ALL because nobody cared what is there at some indistinct point in the past.
19:29 mod6 I'm not saying that we shouldn't move to keccak, just would ideally have a tool that supports it.
19:29 trinque which incidentally is a great segue to hey esthlos, when am I getting such a thing with which to cuntoo?
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19:30 trinque would also take a phf item, if v.py is ready to roll with vtools
19:30 mod6 If you want this done asap, can work towards creating vpatches that have keccak.
19:31 mod6 And I don't think I'm try to wreck anything by being methodical.
19:31 mircea_popescu i'd much prefer not to see a flood of sha patches seeing how http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851879 had to exist because "apparently not aware".
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19:31 a111 Logged on 2018-09-19 17:47 mircea_popescu: but anyway : NO NEW WORK ON SHA PLOX. USE KECCAK.
19:32 mod6 Alright.
19:32 phf (i'm not up to date with log) trinque: i can post a patched v.py that works with vtools, i have some free time sunday evening to prep it up
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19:32 lobbesbot phf: Sent 1 hour and 19 minutes ago: <asciilifeform> plox to snarf http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-September/000312.html and the predecessor ( mod6's http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2018-September/000311.html ) into 'experimental'
19:32 mircea_popescu considering the rate of new work on trb approximates epsilon for the march-september interval, it seems to me entirely bullshit, this manufactured problem of "oh, we have no way to contribute because no working keccak".
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19:32 mircea_popescu for one thing -- make the fucking thing, and for the other thing -- last month "oh, we have no way to contribute because -- summer days".
19:33 mod6 I certainly wasn't held back by no keccak. Who said that?
19:33 mod6 Only thing I've been held back by is lack of time as I've been way overwhelemed by all of the Pizarro work.
19:34 mod6 It should get better now that BingoBoingo has taken over management duites.
19:34 mod6 *duties
19:34 mod6 Anyway, if someone wants to take over my role at the foundation, please let me know.
19:34 mircea_popescu i won't even say anything about any of that, seeing how http://btcbase.org/log/2018-06-27#1830030 and so on.
19:34 a111 Logged on 2018-06-27 00:27 mircea_popescu: does the thing have salespeople / funnel up yet ?
19:35 mircea_popescu but as far as the foundation is concerned -- if all it does (ALL IT DOES!!!) is stand up to tell me "oh, we can't follow the keccak because reasons" ima put an end to it in short order.
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19:36 mod6 I actually would have figured you'd want me to ensure a smooth transition with the correct tooling. Not jump into something before we're ready.
19:36 mircea_popescu not even entirely sure what precisely we'd be missing if there was no foundation at all, right off.
19:36 mod6 Alright. If we disband it, what do we do with the coins?
19:38 mircea_popescu exact same as so far, i reckon. winge and whinge and wring our wrists and worry about it.
19:39 mod6 I didn't mean to piss ya off with my comments above, Sir.
19:40 mod6 Maybe it is time to give someone else a turn at the helm of the Foundation, or move to not have a foundaiton at all.
19:40 mircea_popescu nevermind the pissing off, that's not the issue. this foundation item, it got a nest egg from me, and some more donations from other people back in the day. it didn't manage to turn these into either a growing stream of more donations or a growing stream of activity.
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19:40 mod6 This is true, I kicked in 10 BTC of my own, even.
19:40 mircea_popescu it is exactly what it was in its first week, a nomina nuda, bare name, with no more life to it acquired meanwhile than what it starded with. a flying brick.
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19:41 mircea_popescu we can kick it as high as we want, no wings, no life.
19:41 mircea_popescu if i have to run a balance sheet putting the active on one side and passive=delayed-keccak-adoption on the other side, it's coming out in the red as it stands.
19:43 mod6 *nod8
19:45 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855636 << displays the expected payload, trinque
19:45 a111 Logged on 2018-09-29 23:17 trinque: asciilifeform: what do you have for curl 'http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/attachments/20180923/mod6_excise_hash_truncation.vpatch?sha1=9abdb060135507152b9a5c7c3b8b98966266c5bd'
19:45 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855642 << ffs! why!!!!
19:45 a111 Logged on 2018-09-29 23:22 trinque: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/bjyXE/?raw=true << not so weird, these all point to cloudfront, amazon's cdn thing
19:45 asciilifeform jurov wtf
19:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform only displays that if cloudflare decides to proxy it.
19:46 asciilifeform yea but wtf! why does he have a liquishitflare in there !
19:46 asciilifeform who asked for this!
19:46 asciilifeform cuz it wasn't asciilifeform
19:47 mircea_popescu what do you get if you dig therealbitcoin.org ?
19:47 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/r0Xxq/?raw=true
19:47 asciilifeform and that dun look like pizarro !
19:47 mircea_popescu 100% amazon.
19:47 asciilifeform darkest africa.
19:48 mircea_popescu which w/e, i recall this was the case a while back, cheap instance or w/e.
19:48 mircea_popescu ie, not news to me.
19:48 asciilifeform yea but thing was down for week+ , was nominally getting moved into civilized white man hosting
19:48 mircea_popescu i dunno.
19:48 asciilifeform and i was under impression that this was declared done
19:48 trinque you actually have to set up the dork CDN in front of it yourself though
19:49 mod6 Yeah, I thought the thing was fixed and the archives were moved, too. But may have been mistaken.
19:50 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855663 << i'ma hold off on further patches, even experimentals, until regrind, if mircea_popescu says 'hold'
19:50 a111 Logged on 2018-09-29 23:32 mircea_popescu: considering the rate of new work on trb approximates epsilon for the march-september interval, it seems to me entirely bullshit, this manufactured problem of "oh, we have no way to contribute because no working keccak".
19:50 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855658 << this is fair
19:50 a111 Logged on 2018-09-29 23:31 mircea_popescu: i'd much prefer not to see a flood of sha patches seeing how http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-19#1851879 had to exist because "apparently not aware".
19:50 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855661 << pleez post
19:50 a111 Logged on 2018-09-29 23:32 phf: (i'm not up to date with log) trinque: i can post a patched v.py that works with vtools, i have some free time sunday evening to prep it up
19:50 asciilifeform nuffin is won by waiting, phf
19:52 mircea_popescu we won't die till sunday.
19:52 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i disagree, btw, that 'epsilon', march-current is when the aggression thing was deployed & tested to exhaustion, and gave proper ~realtime block propagation for 1st time since trb birth
19:52 asciilifeform it is only in heathendom that 'work' equals 'massive flood of coad'
19:52 mircea_popescu you're right, i'm just pissy.
19:53 asciilifeform i dun blame mircea_popescu for pissy, current state of affairs is bad for blood pressure unequivocably
19:53 mircea_popescu besides, shit's gotta get a critical look now and again, can't be all happy roses permanently.
19:54 asciilifeform without mircea_popescu's occasional bout of 'wtf, people, from where do you hands grow' we'dve sunk long ago imho
19:55 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855679 << heathendom is fulla parasites who are happy to use bitcoin without contributing so much as a farthing to keeping the 1 and only working client going, noose at 11
19:55 a111 Logged on 2018-09-29 23:40 mircea_popescu: nevermind the pissing off, that's not the issue. this foundation item, it got a nest egg from me, and some more donations from other people back in the day. it didn't manage to turn these into either a growing stream of more donations or a growing stream of activity.
19:56 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855681 << the piggy afaik does thus far exactly what it was needed for, which is to pay for civilized hosting so the patches even have where to sit. imho anyffing on top of this is bonus.
19:56 a111 Logged on 2018-09-29 23:40 mircea_popescu: it is exactly what it was in its first week, a nomina nuda, bare name, with no more life to it acquired meanwhile than what it starded with. a flying brick.
19:57 asciilifeform and yes i'd luvv as much as errybody else if a battallion of civilized folx were to materialize out of somewhere and donate, or even run nodes. but they are evidently scarce, mircea_popescu beat the subject of 'sane people ~extinct' just about todeath
19:58 asciilifeform this being said, hey hey ho ho crapflare has gotta go !! jurov !!
19:58 mircea_popescu i dunno that we've exaustively tried that angle, nor do i think we must drop everything and try etc. we're currently well invested, i'm not protesting it.
19:59 mircea_popescu the issue however, is that if mod6 does all the work he does ~as mod6 ~ or as ~the chair of bitcoin foundation~ in the end makes little difference, it's still the exact same work.
19:59 mircea_popescu maybe with some extra overhead he conceivably doesn'\t even need, in the latter case.
20:00 asciilifeform iirc we did the 'civilized' thing where chair is 1 d00d, treasurer -- another, there's at least a nominal procedure for handover, etc , mircea_popescu suggested it and asciilifeform et al saw it as Right Thing
20:01 asciilifeform sorta a raid5, theoretically supposed to help the participants' life expectancy
20:01 mircea_popescu hey, whole republic is built out of trying out the civilised things various empires came up with. some fruit better than others.
20:01 asciilifeform ( enemy wins less from taking out 1 )
20:01 mircea_popescu it's not directly evident to me that foundation as it currently stands is factually more than a permanent drain on mod6 's worktime.
20:02 asciilifeform mod6 : how much time approximately ~does~ it burn ?
20:02 asciilifeform mod6: and wouldja rather be doing sumthing else ?
20:02 mircea_popescu this question is confounded, because he does a lot of copyediting and general maintenance for all sorts of work that'd have to be done anyway,
20:02 asciilifeform mircea_popescu : pretty much erry worthwhile thing can be rewritten as 'permanent burn' of ~somebody~
20:03 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: currently not clear to me how there'd be less work if trb were 'mod6 proj' instaed of 'foundation'
20:03 mircea_popescu in principle. but our values are very much in the vein of debirocratization, after all. somehow i fear it's more of a haskellism than anything.
20:04 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i dunno, hard to evaluate for me.
20:04 asciilifeform is why i left the q for mod6 .
20:05 mod6 <+asciilifeform> mod6 : how much time approximately ~does~ it burn ? << I'm not even sure I can put a number on it exactly. I put a lot of time in. It's a huge responsibility.
20:05 mircea_popescu i kinda have in the back of my mind this impression that poor shane's ended up stuck with a large number of loose ends to juggle.
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20:05 mod6 <+asciilifeform> mod6: and wouldja rather be doing sumthing else ? << Yeah, I think four years is enough, I think someone else should take over.
20:05 mircea_popescu mod6 is it a major source of unhappiness and anxiety in your life ?
20:05 mod6 Fresh ideas, new enthusiasm, etc.
20:05 mod6 mircea_popescu: not at all. I'm proud to do the work.
20:05 asciilifeform mod6: ftr i'm 100% satisfied with your work as trb chair
20:06 asciilifeform and imho last thing trb needs is '9000 new idea'
20:06 mircea_popescu are you practically solo chair these days or do you hold meetings with ben_vulpes and so on ?
20:06 asciilifeform ( imho -- it's a preservation proj , to keep the thing going until trbi etc )
20:06 mod6 I used to collaborate much more with the man, but he's been afk for quite some time.
20:07 mod6 asciilifeform: Correct.
20:07 mircea_popescu mod6 do you want to name someone to join into the chairdom ?
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20:08 mod6 Overall, yes. I think we need to determine if the entire thing is worthwhile.
20:08 mircea_popescu asciilifeform iirc it was kinda chartered with carte blanche, "do whatever, just do". the way history flew it worked out as a sort of "holder of trb project" pretty much yes.
20:09 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: imho thing's quite key to the practicality of errything else we do.
20:09 mod6 People contribute, and do things. It would be very nice to have more consistant help with testing and other things. It hasn't been too bad just doing it myself, but with Pizarro in the picture (esepcially when was acting manager), having to do it all was hard.
20:09 mircea_popescu i mean, let's not get too anachronistic, most of the things that are "forever held true and known" today have been invented last wednesday ; at the time tbf was invented, none of the notions of collaboration meanwhile spawned out of v usage were even apprehended. not even a glimmer in the lords' eyes...
20:10 asciilifeform without rock-solid trb, there is no bitcoin , at least not in any shape i'd particularly care to be connected with.
20:10 mircea_popescu let http://qntra.net/2018/09/power-rangers-inserted-inflation-bug-into-core-bitcoin-network-client-in-2016/ be remembered here.
20:10 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: birth of trb was 100% powered by 'muscle-powered v' of gpg-signed patches, recall.
20:11 asciilifeform so directly ~produced~ v.
20:11 mircea_popescu yup.
20:12 * asciilifeform successfully, if painfully, dissuaded the participants from regressing into heathendom versiontronics
20:13 asciilifeform with substantial help of mircea_popescu , mod6
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20:13 mod6 I think trinque would be a great candidate for Foundation Co-Chair. (As I've said before).
20:14 asciilifeform imho tbf is the single most productive collaboration we've had here to date, without exaggeration
20:14 asciilifeform ( and, to date, at very little cost, at least if measured coinwise )
20:14 asciilifeform mod6: i concur with the nomination
20:14 mircea_popescu certainly it has that advantage, which no pantsuit item ever could point to, of being VERY conservativewly run and as a result decent roi through keeping denominator down.
20:15 mircea_popescu trinque that sound like something you'd wanna do ?
20:23 trinque as it stands the deedbot wallet project is a hand-cranked charity I run, really want to see that thing move towards paid subscription services before I take on something else.
20:24 trinque folks are also going to expect cuntoo leadership out of me shortly.
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20:24 asciilifeform trinque: do you have a subscription model in the works ?
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20:24 trinque yes, hot-wallet will be a subscription service
20:25 asciilifeform trinque: i.e. the item currently in use, where !!pay x y ?
20:26 trinque no, recall I move my arse to a printer and hand crank all !!withdraw currently
20:26 asciilifeform aa!
20:27 trinque beyond hot-wallet-subscription, notions of trb-as-a-service sit, for in-WoT developers that want highly available programming interfaces to a trb fleet
20:29 asciilifeform to date i haven't conceived of how to make trb into a subscription service ( my 1 attempt at the problem was the 'wires' item ) but this should not discourage others
20:33 trinque first thing is to define what the foundation is. steward of patches/seals, ML, yes, what else?
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20:33 trinque would like ben_vulpes to chime in here too.
20:34 asciilifeform there's a http://thebitcoin.foundation/charter.html
20:34 asciilifeform so possibly ought to be starting point, and if need clarification, to then ask mod6 / ben_vulpes .
20:46 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855775 << was the whole idea, hence http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-17#1850988
20:46 a111 Logged on 2018-09-30 00:24 asciilifeform: trinque: do you have a subscription model in the works ?
20:46 a111 Logged on 2018-09-17 19:24 mircea_popescu: trinque is this something you'd be interested in doing ? expand deedbot thusly, maybe charge chans a fee ?
20:46 mircea_popescu but the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855774 point is sound, guy's gonna have a lot on his plate.
20:46 a111 Logged on 2018-09-30 00:24 trinque: folks are also going to expect cuntoo leadership out of me shortly.
20:47 mircea_popescu is there any objection to this, incidentally ? letting trinque be a sort of one man cuntoo foundation ?
20:49 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855782 << no, it's deliberately open ended. let board pick what to do an' do it.
20:49 a111 Logged on 2018-09-30 00:33 trinque: first thing is to define what the foundation is. steward of patches/seals, ML, yes, what else?
20:50 mircea_popescu and that charter is pretty cool!
21:00 ben_vulpes yeah who even wrote that thing :P
21:01 ben_vulpes by and large i saw the responsibility to ensure that the reference bitcoin client source stayed available to the republic, although at the time i recall a more "to everyone" flavor in my own thinking.
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21:03 ben_vulpes for that reason, largely only spending cash on hosting services. recently also a few hardware nodes. it creates work for mod6 in the vein of the monthly reports. perhaps a nutty suggestion, but it could cleanly be wound down (the charter modified), and mod6 to continue the monthly reports on his blog.
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21:04 ben_vulpes this has the advantage of aligning tbf with how things actually work in the republic, as driven forward by the hands of those doing the work.
21:04 ben_vulpes it also carves off an unsightly imho pantsuit wart upon the side of the republic, a "non-profit organization" with names and caftans etc.
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21:07 ben_vulpes (elsewhere, saws buzz, coats of poly are applied, a decade of life-dross triaged and arrangements made to ship the most-valued and useful posessions across the continent continue...)
21:12 trinque yeh, this is why I prefer strapping myself to a business requirement for trb working well, rather than joining up on TBF
~ 18 minutes ~
21:31 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: imho there is nuffin pantsuit at all about it, and it worked a+++ for entire 4y it's been around.
21:32 asciilifeform otoh whether to work it is entirely board's, i.e. mod6 & ben_vulpes decision, not mine, i am not on tbf board
21:33 asciilifeform but ftr i would see death of tbf as a substantial republican defeat
21:33 asciilifeform it dun need, imho, any 'fixing'.
21:33 esthlos http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-29#1855654 << hey trinque, I plan to have this for you by the end of the weekend. hope that works
21:33 a111 Logged on 2018-09-29 23:29 trinque: which incidentally is a great segue to hey esthlos, when am I getting such a thing with which to cuntoo?
21:33 trinque roger that
21:34 ben_vulpes did what, as far as mod6 and i could tell, it needed to.
21:37 esthlos http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-27#1855058 << as to this, the initial release (this weekend) will use gnupatch. I tried to design the thing so that I can swap out the patcher for my own afterwords. eventually my own mcilroy should make its way in.
21:37 a111 Logged on 2018-09-27 17:49 asciilifeform: esthlos's thing calls to gnupatch ?! ugh
21:40 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855796 << to the extent ( and it is a ~substantial~ extent ) that a healthy btc net relies on ~widely~ available sane client, incl yes even for miners, to limit in any way the distribution of trb src is imho catastrophically stupid idea.
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21:40 a111 Logged on 2018-09-30 01:01 ben_vulpes: by and large i saw the responsibility to ensure that the reference bitcoin client source stayed available to the republic, although at the time i recall a more "to everyone" flavor in my own thinking.
21:43 asciilifeform and incidentally the orig funding model, in case folx forgot, is http://thebitcoin.foundation/declaration.txt
21:43 ben_vulpes inner popscu suggests "what, as if its used by anyone outside the republic anyways? if joe blow wants a sane client (which republicans should be mentioning in their blogs etc), he can join the republic and ask for the vpatches." but perhaps i'm undercalibrated.
21:44 asciilifeform the tithe. ( yes problem that currently nobody's raking in megacoinz and has what to tithe. but the principle is sound. )
21:45 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: if heathendom drifts far enuff into prbism, as things are currently we're blockless
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21:45 asciilifeform this is not one of the items where we can say to all of heathendom to fuckoff.
21:46 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: 'ecological' problem.
21:47 asciilifeform the continued convertibility of btc into saecular goods, e.g. rack space, is not separable from healthy 'ecology' sadly.
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21:51 asciilifeform and yes if there were some magical way to get errybody who benefits from tbf and ergo working btc net, to put into the piggy, it'd be splendid, thing could fund even such things as flotillae of noads, or even trbi dev, etc, whoknows. but there is no magic. and it is a lucky thing that tbf in fact has the coin with which to do the bare minimum and host patches ( not on shitazon! jurov ! ) and handful of reliable nodes.
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21:55 ben_vulpes i do not advocate that tbf hide the sauce away, dun fear
21:55 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i'm genuinely curious if i'm missing something subtle .
21:57 asciilifeform the heart of the matter is that nobody cancelled http://trilema.com/2014/the-woes-of-altcoin-or-why-there-is-no-such-thing-as-cryptocurrencies/ theorem.
21:59 asciilifeform can't replace the thing with 'republic only' trbi , not without some yet-unfathomed breakthrough, or, idk, if mircea_popescu takes over brazil, or, whoknows, catastrophic chernobyl that fully demolishes the classical btc net
22:02 ben_vulpes mm, i didn't mean to suggest 'republic only' trb net. it is however a pretty sane client for the extant network, and perhaps there is value in gating access to such a gem from teh hoi polloi. what with trinque's impending hotwallet patches and his demonstration of their value with trb services, the gem will become only of more value.
22:05 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: it's already pretty much as 'gated' as anyhing gets, already to build it heathen must just about change religions
22:05 asciilifeform and yes at least 1 cretin 'stole' trb. what did it get him.
22:05 ben_vulpes so then what loss? if heathen has changed religion what are they doing out of church
22:06 ben_vulpes is there some fetlife for nerds funnel under optimization?
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22:07 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i see no gain from putting any obstacle in front of anyone, heathen, chinese, martian, good, evil, who wants to run trb .
22:08 asciilifeform if idjit breaks it, he can do no harm thereby that prb does not already do; if he runs a valid node, it contributes to strength of the net.
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22:10 asciilifeform whereas when somebody throws coin into a prb wallet, for any reason whatsoever, whether because he is idjit or because we made it harder to avoid, that's coin into usg coffers.
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22:11 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855796 << i think this narrowed down over time in everyone's mind, as the shocking incapacity of "the everyone" to step up to the plate became ever more enshrined in experience.
22:11 a111 Logged on 2018-09-30 01:01 ben_vulpes: by and large i saw the responsibility to ensure that the reference bitcoin client source stayed available to the republic, although at the time i recall a more "to everyone" flavor in my own thinking.
22:11 * mircea_popescu certainly was informed by a lot more "for everyone" pov five or ten years ago.
22:13 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: as for 'premium' noad access, recall how the mircea_popescu 'trbi' thread was born. ( classical btc offers no sweet pill for how to reward node operators. any attempt to charge for 'gets mined faster' inevitably reduces to a game the miners can themselves win, cutting out middlemen )
22:13 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855799 << twasn't obvious it is substantially a wart. i mean, if we end up cutting off everything the pantsuit attempt or attempterd historically to steal the trappings of, we'd be left without words.
22:13 a111 Logged on 2018-09-30 01:04 ben_vulpes: it also carves off an unsightly imho pantsuit wart upon the side of the republic, a "non-profit organization" with names and caftans etc.
22:14 ben_vulpes on the thread of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855797, upon meditation, tbf was willing to host kids' projects at various points. didn't, in the case of lobbes, because he didn't take funding. kids ever-declining cost next to tbfs kitty inclines me to continue considering these projects.
22:14 a111 Logged on 2018-09-30 01:03 ben_vulpes: for that reason, largely only spending cash on hosting services. recently also a few hardware nodes. it creates work for mod6 in the vein of the monthly reports. perhaps a nutty suggestion, but it could cleanly be wound down (the charter modified), and mod6 to continue the monthly reports on his blog.
22:14 mircea_popescu i suppose in a sense it's very much a question come to fore, "wtf is foundation actually expected to do". i know for myself it very much is expected to not do anything like hinder keccak adoption, but this seems both a small and a remote point.
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22:16 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes the seed funding it provided for pizarro for instance seems a very legitimate approach, "if your project has merit you get a little bit from foundation, helps other people commit." this works well in pantsuitlands too, but i suspect because it;s sound objectively.
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22:16 ben_vulpes "ensure access to the mainline set of patches" was the best i ever came up with for an operating thesis.
22:16 mircea_popescu why does access need to be ensured ?
22:16 ben_vulpes heh see thread with asciilifeform
22:17 mircea_popescu i mean, take trilema. it's the job of http://trilema.com/2018/fetlife-the-next-derperation/ morons to a) find it ; b) read it and c) change their lives to fit ; on their own time and on their own dime. it's not fucking trilema's job to "ensure" a b or c for the morons in question.
22:17 mircea_popescu what's this "ensuring" in the end ?
22:18 ben_vulpes http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855843 << absolutely. however i see risk of a tendency to 'lender of last resort' misbehaviors if unchecked (by whom?! forum clearly. which you address in your point re not throwing out everything the pantsuits touch.)
22:18 a111 Logged on 2018-09-30 02:16 mircea_popescu: ben_vulpes the seed funding it provided for pizarro for instance seems a very legitimate approach, "if your project has merit you get a little bit from foundation, helps other people commit." this works well in pantsuitlands too, but i suspect because it;s sound objectively.
22:19 mircea_popescu yeah it certainly can't become the bank of china.
22:20 ben_vulpes pizarro seemed a) worthwhile endeavour b) could be let fail and the experiment run again c) had good odds of rescue mission succeeding for a time.
22:20 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855812 << you can't help people against their will. there is no such thing as "powered text". all text is powerless, the power gotta be with people.
22:20 a111 Logged on 2018-09-30 01:40 asciilifeform: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855796 << to the extent ( and it is a ~substantial~ extent ) that a healthy btc net relies on ~widely~ available sane client, incl yes even for miners, to limit in any way the distribution of trb src is imho catastrophically stupid idea.
22:23 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: i dun propose to 'help' heathens somehow against will. but imho anyffig that in any way makes trb noad harder to stand up than strictly must -- yields terrain to enemy.
22:24 ben_vulpes not surfacing every single person capable of operating a v for subsequent filtering of whether or not they are ready to convert also yields.
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22:25 asciilifeform right nao we only have blox because chinese d00dz i've never heard of, and dun expect to, run ~trb-compat proggies. i've nfi if trb per se helps this state of affairs to continue, but for so long as it continues, oughta at least not interfere, imho.
22:26 ben_vulpes well obviously someone sees the value in it as at least a testbed, what cost to him of registering a key.
22:26 * ben_vulpes must bbl
22:27 asciilifeform this being said, 'mining is a bug'(tm), if i knew how to gruesomely slaughter all miners while keeping something like working bitcoin net, i promise to say how.
22:27 trinque big difference ftr between "lender of last resort" and "startup incubator"
22:27 trinque the latter again, tainted by pantsuit stink, yet businesses do get started.
22:28 asciilifeform trinque: as mircea_popescu observed earlier, if we succumb to logic of 'word taint' we'll quickly turn into the speed of light people
22:28 trinque I agree.
22:28 asciilifeform and there's no return from that shithole
22:30 trinque one thing that looks interesting externally is tbh throwing first doing something to actively seek out non-knuckleheads (yo esthlos, what do you do for a living again?) and see if a quarter or two of float can get folks building things that put hard pressure on trb thriving.
22:30 trinque rather than trying to think of ways to throw money directly at trb. it by itself dun want any, or anything.
22:31 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855842 << actually imho tbf performed 100% to spec even there. i fully expect tbf to be at the ~hindmost~ of all 'exciting new ideaz' adoptions, not forefront. it's a habsburg art gallery, not avant-garde.
22:31 a111 Logged on 2018-09-30 02:14 mircea_popescu: i suppose in a sense it's very much a question come to fore, "wtf is foundation actually expected to do". i know for myself it very much is expected to not do anything like hinder keccak adoption, but this seems both a small and a remote point.
22:32 trinque as the chairs appear to have money, but not time, the investor role seems to fit best.
22:32 asciilifeform trinque: imho not bad idea
22:32 asciilifeform ( tho i cannot presently think of any concretes )
22:33 trinque good investments oughta be able to drive new customers to pizarro for infrastructure.
22:35 trinque *also oughta
22:35 asciilifeform verily
22:36 asciilifeform the 1 gotcha is that most trb-related items afaik constrained by scarcity of skilled l1 hands, not coin as such
22:37 asciilifeform on the 1 occasion when shortage of coin was the burning fire, tbf stepped up and did just this.
22:37 trinque only thing gonna free up l1 hands is wealthier l1
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22:37 asciilifeform trinque: tru. but nobody's about to become mircea_popescu off what's in the tbf piggy as we know it..
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22:38 asciilifeform it's pretty modest atm.
22:39 trinque see what I said about seeding businesses
22:39 trinque didn't say eat the seeds
22:39 asciilifeform rright, but point was orig 'the skilled hands are few and short time'
22:40 asciilifeform a bitcent or 2 doesnt change this.
22:40 trinque their time is short because they're all pulling salaries in shitland
22:41 trinque no offense to anyone involved
22:41 asciilifeform i can speak only for self, but at least in my case it is tru
22:42 trinque pulling bread from shitland, salary or not. so am I
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22:42 asciilifeform and i suppose if other l1 similarly imprisoned but cheaper to ransom than asciilifeform , could potentially make effect
22:43 asciilifeform ( asciilifeform in particular could not ransom even with entire piggy , sadly. but fortunately there are other folx with hands growing from right organ )
22:46 asciilifeform Mocky, for instance, is a very compact but quite competent fella. ( but mircea_popescu already snapped him up for a diff proj )
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22:47 trinque speculative proposal is to have tbf do same snapping up of their l2, see what happens.
22:47 trinque this isn't me gunning for a seed round for myself.
~ 1 hours 8 minutes ~
23:55 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-09-30#1855856 << this is by far the larger concern.
23:55 a111 Logged on 2018-09-30 02:24 ben_vulpes: not surfacing every single person capable of operating a v for subsequent filtering of whether or not they are ready to convert also yields.
23:55 mircea_popescu people using your software that are the usual sort of idiots... you ain't got anything going there.
23:58 mircea_popescu i see the point of hind-front, though ideally not entirely as a time function.
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