Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans


← 2018-07-05 | 2018-07-07 →
04:14 deedbot http://trilema.com/2018/minigame-smg-june-2018-statement/ << Trilema - MiniGame (S.MG), June 2018 Statement
~ 2 hours 59 minutes ~
07:13 deedbot http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-2-no-c/ << ave1 - GNAT Zero Foot Print - Take 2 - No C
~ 1 hours 20 minutes ~
08:34 diana_coman that looks good ave1
~ 50 minutes ~
09:25 ave1 thx diana_coman, It's now very minimal, mostly so that it can be understood as is. I'm working on adding all the code in so that at least ffa can build.
09:26 diana_coman what was exactly you couldn't build with gprbuild and needed the makefile for?
09:29 ave1 the startup.S file, it needs to end up as a separate object file and not part of libgnat.a
09:31 ave1 at least that's my understanding so far (crt1.o etc are also not part of libc.a). But maybe it is fine to put in, I haven't tried it yet.
09:36 diana_coman hmm, but you can in any case just write a .gpr that builds the object files for precisely the files you want, no/
09:36 diana_coman or there's something I don't quite follow there
09:38 diana_coman anyway, this might be premature ; it's more that I'm surprised gprbuild couldn't quite do what you needed
09:42 ave1 it maybe possible to creat a stand-alone object file as target but I haven't found that option yet (so far I worked with libraries and executables).
09:43 ave1 Also, I just checked, it is fine to put the start.o in the libgnat.a so next step may well be that the makefile can be removed again.
09:45 diana_coman cool
09:50 asciilifeform ave1: pretty neat. 1 nitpick, however: generally you don't want memcpy and memmove to be in anything but asm -- otherwise whole proggy is abominably slow ( ada proggy spends quite a bit of time clearing buffers and passing fairly large chunks of data by value )
09:52 ave1 asciilifeform, yes that was my first reaction too. It does does something with word copying though and also individual files can be build without any of the extra gnat checks. So maybe the ada versions can be stand-ins so long as a native asm based version has not been written.
09:53 asciilifeform ave1: also keep in mind that you can't get away with not having the last-resort exception handler -- preconds and asserts demand it
09:53 ave1 the last_change_handler is in there
09:53 asciilifeform hm
09:53 asciilifeform i'll read the whole thing and get back .
09:54 ave1 the examples have two binaries, one simple hw the other triggers a constaint error
09:54 asciilifeform nifty
09:59 ave1 now there was something with asserts, but I'll have to dig this up again and do a few experiments
10:01 asciilifeform ave1: seems like the holy grail, the bare iron gnat, is not far.
10:02 asciilifeform ( init the x64 page table, jump, serial port for i/o )
10:04 ave1 another holy grail, I thought the arm version was it!
10:05 asciilifeform !#s bare metal
10:05 a111 49 results for "bare metal", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=bare%20metal
10:06 asciilifeform ave1: ultimate brass ring is where we can dispense with os (in the usual sense)
10:06 ave1 I have to practice my joke lines
10:06 asciilifeform lol
10:09 ave1 btw, at this point would bare metal arm make more sense than x86? (at least some arm processors seem to be free of blobs and backdoor).
10:09 asciilifeform ave1: x86, arm, mips, at the very least.
10:10 asciilifeform asciilifeform in particular would like a gnat for mips, given as the latter actually fits in an ice40
10:11 asciilifeform i took a shot at building one back in 2016, but ran into a buncha gnarl, which ave1 at this point seems to have mostly resolved
10:11 ave1 yes, did you ever hear anything back from the russian mips producers?
10:12 asciilifeform nope
10:12 asciilifeform not 1 answered.
10:12 ave1 It seems that the American one (Cavium?) is also unobtainable
10:12 asciilifeform the ice40 breakthrough however means that we can be own mips producer.
10:12 asciilifeform it won't be world's fastest, but will work.
10:13 asciilifeform ( and possibly can roll in not only mips, but e.g. a custom instruction for bounds checking )
10:14 ave1 I could see if I can port gnat to qemu-mips
10:15 asciilifeform http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/2RPis/?raw=true << example. schoolbook mips
10:15 ave1 Any MIPS verilog / vhdl code you can point too?
10:15 asciilifeform see above.
10:15 ave1 Answered before asked
10:17 ave1 thx! now if anyone can be bother to design a board with multiple ice40
10:17 asciilifeform 1 will suffice.
10:17 asciilifeform the simplest (text i/o only) mips emul asciilifeform likes, is 'gxemul' , should suffice to test.
10:17 asciilifeform no particular need for qemu.
10:18 ave1 thx, I will look into it
10:19 ave1 I see, I'll have to learn verilog, I did not know you could implement a processor with so little code
10:19 asciilifeform ave1: FUCKGOATS src http://btcbase.org/patches/fg-genesis makes as good an intro to verilogism as any imho
10:20 asciilifeform ( illustrates a (write-only) serial uart, for instance )
10:20 asciilifeform and state machine, etc
10:23 asciilifeform approx same level of complexity as that little mips.
10:24 asciilifeform it eats 71 of the 72 logic cells in the old xilinx cpld.
10:24 asciilifeform ( ice40 is about a dozen times larger )
10:26 asciilifeform ice40, unlike the xilinx cplds, also includes 32kB of onboard sram. so possibly can have small cache, or extra registers, or some other useful item.
10:27 * asciilifeform brb,tea
10:32 ave1 I was reading through the fg design (doing experiments with circuit simulators to see how the RNG might work etc). I'll just continue with the next step.
~ 47 minutes ~
11:20 asciilifeform ave1: iirc you also have an actual FG, can experiment with that.
11:21 asciilifeform ave1: feel free to ask q if you end up puzzled in re particulars.
11:21 asciilifeform ( the src is pedantically, painfully commented, but whoknows )
11:25 asciilifeform ave1: simulator won't give you much useful to work with re analogue rng, considering that it relies on amplification of physical (johnson) noise
~ 25 minutes ~
11:50 asciilifeform in other noose, herr asahara hangs.
11:51 asciilifeform ( took'em... 23 yrs )
~ 40 minutes ~
12:31 trinque asciilifeform: cuntoo tarball uploadin, poast shortly
12:31 asciilifeform oh neat
12:32 asciilifeform !!up Bigtexasbingo
12:32 deedbot Bigtexasbingo voiced for 30 minutes.
12:33 Bigtexasbingo Is it just me or did that French team not look very French
12:33 Bigtexasbingo Fuckkng golden state warriors of Africa
12:34 Bigtexasbingo Nigger all stars versus a country trying to be a nation
12:34 Bigtexasbingo Trampa!!!
12:35 Bigtexasbingo L
12:35 Bigtexasbingo Fraud ball
12:35 mircea_popescu hey, colonial empires. england's all injuns and france's all africans for a coupla centuries now.
12:35 mircea_popescu sadly for the us, they're all latinos. and it shows.
12:38 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832198 << /me following this quite excitedly.
12:38 a111 Logged on 2018-07-06 13:43 ave1: Also, I just checked, it is fine to put the start.o in the libgnat.a so next step may well be that the makefile can be removed again.
12:39 mircea_popescu i like his approach, ftr. tempered ingenuity, wiggle things one at a time towards the greater goal.
12:39 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it's a finger's length of asm away from iron gnat.
12:39 mircea_popescu just about
12:40 mircea_popescu and not even a long finger, he just doesn't comfortably asm is all.
12:40 asciilifeform funnily enuff asciilifeform posted the necessary asm a while back, but grrr can't find in log yet
12:40 mircea_popescu maybe we should asm the log, simplify array access :D
12:40 asciilifeform ( all you gotta do is to bring up the x64 pagetable and the uart, and you're home )
12:41 asciilifeform lol
12:41 mircea_popescu anyway, let him be, this part can be easily patched in later anyway.
12:41 asciilifeform verily
12:45 mircea_popescu did i ever tell you the story of ye olde 8086 friend had that could drop into asm-er from bios ?
12:45 asciilifeform the packard bell thing, with the int19 debugger ?
12:45 mircea_popescu this "iron-gnat", i'm not even sure it's clear what a cool system it could make.
12:46 mircea_popescu asciilifeform possibly.
12:47 mircea_popescu thinking about this, it's fucking evident what difference the online made for the thinking mind. yes i was a child, but child or no child, it didn't occur to me that i must have a gns link to the item that i like. "this" and pointing was an acceptable manner of reference in the 90s, because why the hell wouldn't it be and what's a global namespace anyway.
12:47 mircea_popescu very much the exact opposite of http://trilema.com/2011/ce-am-pierdut-si-voi-n-ati-avut/ discussion.
12:48 mircea_popescu !!up Bigtexasbingo
12:48 deedbot Bigtexasbingo voiced for 30 minutes.
12:48 asciilifeform see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-17#1544272 , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-19#1605443 , elsewhere.
12:48 a111 Logged on 2016-09-17 18:06 asciilifeform: now switching from the depressive tack, to the crackpot track, i ~did~ get high speed uart going on one of those all-in-one amd64 boxes.
12:48 a111 Logged on 2017-01-19 23:35 asciilifeform: theoretically you can, e.g., host www on just an uart.
12:50 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832215 << you definitely do.
12:50 a111 Logged on 2018-07-06 14:06 ave1: I have to practice my joke lines
12:50 Bigtexasbingo Trampa
12:50 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832217 << really ? name one ?
12:50 a111 Logged on 2018-07-06 14:09 ave1: btw, at this point would bare metal arm make more sense than x86? (at least some arm processors seem to be free of blobs and backdoor).
12:51 Bigtexasbingo Just the colo. Rock chips
12:52 mircea_popescu ya well.
12:52 mircea_popescu in other lulz, apparently "screensaver" on "graphical linux", all flavours, BREAKS OPEN PIPES.
12:53 mircea_popescu i don't understand how they propose anyone use those things. "here's a pile of very important features that you must turn off one by one in order to get the box bacl"
12:54 mircea_popescu who the fuck even ships a "screensaver", what is this, the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-05#1831830 future ?!
12:54 a111 Logged on 2018-07-05 17:15 asciilifeform: in fact, this sorta happened, recall the early crt tv and its xray killzone
12:54 Bigtexasbingo Brb, trying to conseguir un nave
12:54 mircea_popescu see Bigtexasbingo , online piracy, gatweay drug to marine piracy.
12:55 mircea_popescu next you'll be having sex, and who knows what other unspeakable horrors banned in boston.
12:56 mircea_popescu Oh, thou demon Drink, thou fell destroyer; thou curse of society, and its greatest annoyer. What hast thou done to society, let me think? I answer thou hast caused the most of ills, thou demon Drink.
12:56 mircea_popescu Thou causeth the mother to neglect her child, also the father to act as he were wild, so that he neglects his loving wife and family dear, by spending his earnings foolishly on whisky, rum and beer.
12:56 mircea_popescu And after spending his earnings foolishly he beats his wife -- the man that promised to protect her during life -- and so the man would if there was no drink in society, for seldom a man beats his wife in a state of sobriety.
12:56 mircea_popescu and so on.
12:57 mircea_popescu o wow that's his irc client ? i thought he literally meant "mother".
12:58 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832227 << this. "not as fast, but at least useful" (tm)
12:58 a111 Logged on 2018-07-06 14:13 asciilifeform: ( and possibly can roll in not only mips, but e.g. a custom instruction for bounds checking )
12:59 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832233 << there's all that discussion of fabric fabrication...
12:59 a111 Logged on 2018-07-06 14:17 ave1: thx! now if anyone can be bother to design a board with multiple ice40
13:06 mircea_popescu phf do you remember why ave1 's thing isn't in http://btcbase.org/patches ?
13:06 mircea_popescu http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-and-zero-foot-print-runtimes/ & now http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-zero-foot-print-take-2-no-c/
13:07 mircea_popescu ave1 re http://ave1.org/2018/gnat-and-zero-foot-print-runtimes/#comment-38 btw, what became of dlopen ?
13:07 asciilifeform ok here goes, ftr : http://loper-os.org/pub/x86-64-toystore-os.tar.gz >> sha512==e292a6d4296bc3cc63d2bc78bb7def807f7c4e9f8e630b292afec00b08c1fc2f8eeff5d074560804828ee7aee8ab5e43e698436c203c990d994863882e51446a
13:07 asciilifeform i will put in the log, what this is, and how to eat it
13:08 mircea_popescu " The hello world example from the previous installment can be build and it's size inspected. It is now at 2.6k (down from 54k) on my computer" aaa yes
13:09 mircea_popescu ave1 "can be built*"
13:09 asciilifeform 'make emu' builds variant that runs in qemu and (if you have x86-64 qemu) boots it. 'make sage' ditto but boots on a cold sage ( see http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1887 & elsewhere ) . 'make sage-warm' boots on a warm sage.
13:09 asciilifeform there is a x86-64 pagetable unit, and uart init. some of the routines are in c, but quite simple to translate. there is a heathen printf, can tear it out, or use for hexdumps etc.
13:09 asciilifeform 'make dis' shits out disasm of whole thing
13:10 asciilifeform 'make emu-dbg' boots in qemu in singlestep mode.
13:10 asciilifeform the demo mainproggy, rom.c, simply prints 'Halted.' to the uart and hangs forever.
13:11 asciilifeform to build , needs nasm + any gcc whatsoever ( gnat oughta work )
13:11 mircea_popescu ^ worth a check btw.
13:11 asciilifeform worx in asciilifeform's old gnat.
13:12 mircea_popescu nice
13:12 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-05#1831980 << no, it's a script that'll build the system from scratch, using a snapshot of external deps
13:12 a111 Logged on 2018-07-05 18:02 asciilifeform: trinque: is your item packaged roughly similarly to my rockchip thing ? (i.e. a tarball that i can unpack onto an empty ext4 , and jump into ) ?
13:12 asciilifeform hmm seems like i forgot to include the sage gdb loaders, 1s
13:13 mircea_popescu a minimal os + custom built fs (doubling as bitcoin specific db ; possibly written as raid firmware at least in part) + proper net driver (i really don't need iptables ad-hoc scripting lang to do what evidently and universally bitcoin node has to do) + grandfather pistols bitcoin code => an actual definitive package.
13:14 mircea_popescu ie, we've managed to stockade it, at least. digestion can then proceed.
13:14 asciilifeform updated the taball, new sha512==6b131ba3529ae9856f0befa260c1a477b068197a9e3b24571308c528bc1373c2ca71f6065e1146dbe9329f115a2fe53469f0d7528a729f73194d75365e7f63f8
13:14 asciilifeform now includes whole thing.
13:15 asciilifeform the interesting from 'iron gnat' etc pov, is the *.asm .
13:15 asciilifeform boot_qemu.asm is the minimal x86-64 init and stage1 loader.
13:16 asciilifeform rom.ld is the linker memorymap magic, also educational, produces a bootable kernel.
13:16 asciilifeform not counting the printf or the makefile, 495 lines.
13:17 asciilifeform *tarball
13:18 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: to bake a e.g. iron trbi, or the like, you'd need to init and talk to the sata card, this is not given in the example ( but not particularly difficult )
13:19 asciilifeform would need nic also ( see the old nic thread )
13:19 ave1 mircea_popescu, dlopen part is from the gnu libc, the init code (even for the static code) in gnu libs depends on functions from the dlopen.o. I think that then causes the whole dlopen.o to be included. I never could get the definite mapping (ld allows you to create a map but it was not helpful)
13:19 asciilifeform the given demo gives you uart and that's it. ( hypothetically could internet over uart, ye olde 'slip/ppp' )
13:19 ave1 I next tried to rip out the specific calls but these caused immediate segfaults
13:19 deedbot http://trinque.org/2018/07/06/cuntoo-bootstrapper-preview/ << trinque - Cuntoo Bootstrapper Preview
13:20 ave1 Then I decided I could better spend my time on musl than trying to salvage anything from gnu libc
13:23 asciilifeform ave1: this is The Right Thing, let glibc go to the bottom of the sea where it belongs.
13:24 trinque anybody that wants to help verify the portage genesis.vpatch later oughta try building the musl gentoo in my post.
13:24 trinque maybe PeterL or danielpbarron want to give it a try too
13:25 mircea_popescu asciilifeform right.
13:25 asciilifeform trinque: currently massaging ch11 of ffa series, right after this will test-fire your opus
13:25 mircea_popescu ave1 yes, just saying, mapping that out would be useful.
13:26 mircea_popescu because as it happens this is ready knob for "distinguish man from child". i can ask people, "but does your '''project''' dlopen" and well...
13:26 trinque asciilifeform: roger
13:27 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: whole thrust behind asciilifeform's initial colonization of musl was to be rid of dlopen() etc
13:27 mircea_popescu at this juncture i feel obligated to http://btcbase.org/log/2018-03-23#1789029
13:27 a111 Logged on 2018-03-23 04:14 douchebag: Okay, why do you guys liek arguing so much? Is this why you guys don't get anything done?
13:27 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you don't say!
13:27 asciilifeform heh
13:32 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832308 << to expand on this, with the linked mips example, already can haz e.g. 32bit cpu with no pipeline, no cache, etc ~but~ fits in ice40.
13:32 a111 Logged on 2018-07-06 16:58 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832227 << this. "not as fast, but at least useful" (tm)
13:33 asciilifeform ice40 + a coupla MB of sram -- and you can (not very quickly, but) crypto.
13:35 asciilifeform should even be enuff gates left over to roll in FG logic.
~ 22 minutes ~
13:58 asciilifeform !!up Bigtexasbingo
13:58 deedbot Bigtexasbingo voiced for 30 minutes.
14:01 mircea_popescu lmao. let's ban him ?
~ 22 minutes ~
14:24 mircea_popescu meanwhile " In 2014 Dundee was recognised by the United Nations as the UK's first UNESCO City of Design for its diverse contributions to fields including medical research, comics and video games."
14:24 mircea_popescu just thought you folks would like to know.
14:26 diana_coman si pentru spiritul tovarasesc!
14:26 mircea_popescu lol
14:26 mircea_popescu au si ei caracal.
~ 18 minutes ~
14:45 asciilifeform caracal?! the african wild cat ??
14:45 mircea_popescu city in the dumb-but-cocky part of romania, famous principally for the "seven wonders of stupidty"
14:45 asciilifeform ahahaha
14:45 mircea_popescu including building in a large crane, that couldn't be extracred any longer
14:45 asciilifeform догоним и перегоним америку (tm)(r)
14:46 mircea_popescu (ro used the prefab construction process -- first, send mining equipment, flatten land ; then, put in rail ; then, roll out a rail crane, and roll prefab on cars up to it ; then move the derivation
14:46 mircea_popescu can make 1mn sqm of hruscheba per week with this
14:46 asciilifeform same method as used here.
14:46 mircea_popescu aha.
14:46 asciilifeform ( in usa hruscheba is build in ~week or 2, as they make from cardboard )
14:47 mircea_popescu these were the original prefab, poured concrete.
14:47 mircea_popescu 20 tons per panel or somesuch.
14:47 asciilifeform well yes, as seen in literally erry place other than usa and perhaps jp )
14:47 asciilifeform ( in montevideo asciilifeform saw perfectly on-spec hruschebas , panels & all )
14:47 mircea_popescu aha.
14:48 mircea_popescu aanyways, shall bbl.
~ 19 minutes ~
15:07 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832296 << curious what this was about. ... open ssh pipes ? i've yet to see this wonder. dollars to doughnuts it's a shituntu etc box with acpi sleep .
15:07 a111 Logged on 2018-07-06 16:52 mircea_popescu: in other lulz, apparently "screensaver" on "graphical linux", all flavours, BREAKS OPEN PIPES.
15:08 asciilifeform winblowz style. can kill it either in bios setup or somewhere in the heathen configs.
15:09 asciilifeform ( or better yet, just say no to shituntu )
~ 2 hours 55 minutes ~
18:04 BingoBoingo The abject sadness in this town
18:07 BingoBoingo Of all the people who could be sad, the Brasileros are saddest
18:13 BingoBoingo Who would have thought Brasileros could be sad about fraudball?
18:13 BingoBoingo Brb still shopping for at least a frigate
~ 50 minutes ~
19:04 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-06#1832312 << there's no reason, i literally just returned from the walk where i remembered some outstanding things i need to do, that was one of them.
19:04 a111 Logged on 2018-07-06 17:06 mircea_popescu: phf do you remember why ave1 's thing isn't in http://btcbase.org/patches ?
19:04 phf i think there's also something from esthlos..
19:05 trinque yep, dood has a vtron
19:06 phf ah yes, i thought there was something else. does his vtron use keccak by the way, or it's still a shasum -a 512 call out?
19:08 trinque as I recall just walks the strings present in that position in the vpatches
19:09 trinque can't say off the top of my head if it works with the keccak ones (oughta), but gotta run for now
19:09 phf ty, i'll take a look anyway
19:13 trinque shells out to patch, perhaps the intent there was to end up with an external patch util that understands vpatch hashes. esthlos, maybe shed light?
19:13 trinque bbl
19:15 phf considering the slow adoption of the keccak approach and also a large number of existing sha512 patches, i'm planning on doing a regrind where i merge the keccak and the sha branches together, so that vpatch/vdiff can produce both hashes on a switch, until further notice.
19:29 phf ave1: http://ave1.org/tarpit/tmsr-pgp-genesis.ave1.sig is missing
19:30 phf !Q later tell ave1 ^
19:30 lobbesbot phf: The operation succeeded.
19:40 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2018-07-02#1831298 << unless you have particular preferences, i'm going to throw it into the same patchset as ircbot. it'll follow the grand ircbot tradition of a genesis that never the less relies on the adjacent patches
19:40 a111 Logged on 2018-07-02 12:07 spyked: ^ phf, can you pl0x add this to the btcbase patch list? and http://lucian.mogosanu.ro/src/trilemabot/ ?
19:47 phf !!key ave1
19:47 deedbot http://wot.deedbot.org/57EE94EA6F2049A47DAFA8568F4CE8F777BC59F9.asc
19:47 phf !!key esthlos
19:47 deedbot http://wot.deedbot.org/EDB93AD2CAB28398010B46D025C71657FDA71DC2.asc
~ 1 hours 28 minutes ~
21:15 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes.
21:20 mircea_popescu phf define slow adoption!!
~ 1 hours 15 minutes ~
22:36 mircea_popescu meanwhile in truly obscure niche news nobody could possibly give a shit about, http://www.laughspin.com/
22:36 mircea_popescu also, .ovh is a tld now.
22:42 mircea_popescu http://www.laughspin.com/lahna-turner-how-i-lost-500-pounds-guest-post/ << this is possibly the shittiest "creative writing" 16yo paper i ever had to score
22:42 mircea_popescu "and i score it F, for get the Fuck off the premises, whore. education's not for everybody."
22:43 asciilifeform holyfuq what is this, scraped from bottom of spam trap ?
22:49 mircea_popescu hey, maybe BingoBoingo wants to talk to dylan for advertising strategic partnership. replace the uberlulzy http://pixel.indieclick.com/annonymous/ block that serves me 3 instances of the same idiotic "Millonarios quieren prohibir este video - ¡Míralo!"
22:49 mircea_popescu anyway, retard's got a personal website, too. "Watch Limeade a comedic homage to Beyonce’s “Lemonade,”. Heartbreak turns into laughter in this comedy visual music album."
~ 53 minutes ~
23:43 deedbot http://blog.lobbesblog.com/2018/07/sales-report-june-2018/ << lobbesblog - Sales Report: June 2018
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