#trilema | 2017-11-16

pest - 1d
trilema - 1017d

Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2017-11-15 | 2017-11-17 → ↓

01:06	BingoBoingo	!~ticker --market all
01:06	jhvh1	BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 7222.59, vol: 14684.62002310 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 7220.0, vol: 60507.0461593 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 7210.0, vol: 7585.25528369 \| Volume-weighted last average: 7219.54311677
01:16	*	BingoBoingo still has more tax law to read, but new rough number is 61.615 USd/week per RU or 267 USd/monthly per RU
		↖
01:19	BingoBoingo	Calculated as 2{[(monthly rack with 22% VAT)/(40 Salable RU)](12 Months)}/(52 weeks)
01:19	BingoBoingo	Figure subject to change as more tax law is digested
01:27	BingoBoingo	This is a reduction of ~21.47% over number from last night taken through weekification and de-fxrisking transform.
		~ 22 minutes ~
01:49	BingoBoingo	And in latest Pantsuit purge developments pro-muscleman can be victim too https://archive.is/vjeDN
		~ 4 hours 38 minutes ~
06:27	apeloyee	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739374 << can you enlighten us about why you believe there's no way to use information about range of factors (because you say so?), and about the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739371 as regards the number field sieve, as this doesn't seem to be published (or perharps for quadratic sieve). elliptic curve does benefit from smaller factors, but if the...
		↖
06:27	a111	Logged on 2017-11-15 23:45 asciilifeform: nope.
06:27	a111	Logged on 2017-11-15 23:43 asciilifeform: and the difficulty of breaking rsa via known methods is proportional to the size of the smallest prime. you oughta know that.
06:27	apeloyee	...factors differ only a few bits in length, it doesn't appear to be better than NFS.
		↖
06:30	apeloyee	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739383 << you can just use 4096*4096 multiplies. It's lulzy to see how you rant about "proper" rsa and demand full-size exponents, but somehow restricting range of p and q is OK.
		↖ ↖
06:30	a111	Logged on 2017-11-15 23:59 asciilifeform: at any rate this is a quite pointless imho discussion, we will NOT be reintroducing normalized integer braindamage.
		~ 1 hours 42 minutes ~
08:13	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739412 << i don't think anything besides the stringing of words is seriously contemplated.
08:13	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 03:30 asciilifeform: ( reading the linked item, it would be impossible to infer that it is ~not~ one )
08:14	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739424 << is the first figure with customer's gear and the second with yours ?
08:14	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 06:16 BingoBoingo still has more tax law to read, but new rough number is 61.615 USd/week per RU or 267 USd/monthly per RU
08:14	mircea_popescu	ah sorry my bad, week/month nm
08:15	mircea_popescu	im getting at least 4, so. proceed.
		↖
08:19	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739432 << factors differing by only a few bits in length aren't particularily unsafe, which is why the original alt-rsa spec involved them (see eg http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-14#1697613 and the eventual end of that discussion.)
08:19	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 11:27 apeloyee: ...factors differ only a few bits in length, it doesn't appear to be better than NFS.
08:19	a111	Logged on 2017-08-14 17:21 mircea_popescu: tmsr rsa standard key is 515 bits, made out of a 257 and a 258 bit long prime.
08:20	mircea_popescu	factors that are very small are trivially a vulnerability, as the 17 example shows. what is "small enough" is somewhat of an open question, but 512 BITS does conceiovably qualify.
08:21	mircea_popescu	there's no argument that informations about range of factors CAN be used. the point is minorily that a) a range of 2045 bits is sufficient and majorily that b) should this range NOT be sufficient, the correct response is to extend IT, rather than to introduce key-substitute mechanisms in the actual encryption scheme.
08:22	mircea_popescu	ie, "you have the following information about any and all factors : they're 11 led, 1 terminated, 2045 true random bits. knock yourself out."
08:26	mircea_popescu	yes, in about 6% of cases the N will come out as 111..., in which case you know that both p and q are actually 1111 1111 led, ie you'll have 2 bits of each. and in 0.001% of cases N will led by FF and have the next bit set, so you'll know both p and q have the first octet set. if you have an extension attack allowing you to parlay 8 leading bits into the prime exposure, you can thereby crack rsa in 0.001% of cases.
08:26	mircea_popescu	as far as anyone knows, something closer to 450 bits is what's actually needed.
08:29	mircea_popescu	this whole thing aside, the only objection to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739433 ie, "produce sets of 2048 bits, check them for primality, if they're prime multiply them and if the product is a suitable N keep them else start over" was http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737682
08:29	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 11:30 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739383 << you can just use 4096*4096 multiplies. It's lulzy to see how you rant about "proper" rsa and demand full-size exponents, but somehow restricting range of p and q is OK.
08:29	a111	Logged on 2017-11-14 15:01 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1737387 << this is alternatively a perfectly acceptable approach ; expensive as all fuck though. prolly should be the standard for homemade keys.
08:38	mircea_popescu	it may appear beneficial to instead produce larger sets, such as of 4096 bits. the UPPER BOUND of the gain from this process is known ; the lower bound of losses from it is not known, because yes if you allow 4096 bit p, q and test, an acceptable N can be composed of the product between 17 and 2^4092 - 177 or whatever it was.
08:38	mircea_popescu	so logically if indeed the larger upper bound was deemed useful we'd move the standard to 8192 bits N with 4096 bit p/q rather than do this.
		~ 18 minutes ~
08:57	mircea_popescu	aaand in other lulz, https://blog.josefsson.org/2016/11/03/why-i-dont-use-2048-or-4096-rsa-key-sizes/
		↖
09:00	mircea_popescu	cultivated enough to mention bernstein&gf curve, uncomprehending enough to "post quantum algorithms". how do these happen, i wish to know.
		↖
09:09	mircea_popescu	other lulz, same source : https://blog.josefsson.org/2017/08/03/vikings-d16-server-first-impressions/ (apparently there's an entire kanzure 's wanker club dedicated to republican hosting ; vikings.net and whatnot. doesn't seem to be actually working though, but i did join their irc, see what happens.
09:21	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739429 << forget public nfsieve. consider ordinary bruteforce ('but how brute force for soomanybits??!' ) on novel physical substrate, or with a heuristic that lets you skip large chunks of space
09:21	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 11:27 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739374 << can you enlighten us about why you believe there's no way to use information about range of factors (because you say so?), and about the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739371 as regards the number field sieve, as this doesn't seem to be published (or perharps for quadratic sieve). elliptic curve does benefit from smaller factors, but if the...
09:22	asciilifeform	'state of the art' means ANY attack that i can describe.
09:22	mircea_popescu	or consider something as simple as phuctor, that already has a lot of "special" primes, however you define special (small, common, whatevewr)
09:22	asciilifeform	aaha.
09:23	mircea_popescu	the importance of a phuctor style primorial+commonkeyset gcding away is somehow easily overlooked by academic minds. but in practical terms it is the first line, degree (or even two!) ahead of haskelism a la gnfs
09:23	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739433 << lol next this fella will say, i suspect, 'why do you restrict the range of N'
09:23	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 11:30 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-15#1739383 << you can just use 4096*4096 multiplies. It's lulzy to see how you rant about "proper" rsa and demand full-size exponents, but somehow restricting range of p and q is OK.
09:24	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform incidentally, bernstein's curve implementation is ALSO free of branching on secret bits, have you seen that thing ?
09:25	asciilifeform	which one
09:25	asciilifeform	he has a buncha
09:26	mircea_popescu	http://ed25519.cr.yp.to/software.html
09:26	mircea_popescu	not entirely clear yet if he just AIMED to avoid all secret bit branching or actulaly managed.
09:26	mircea_popescu	but the attempt is evident.
09:26	asciilifeform	i only see pyturds
09:26	mircea_popescu	yes.
09:26	asciilifeform	crypto in a gclang is an absurdity
09:27	mircea_popescu	yes.
09:27	mircea_popescu	not discussing that part.
09:27	asciilifeform	of course it branches on seekritz
09:27	asciilifeform	or hm you were prolly thinking of the asm one
09:27	mircea_popescu	here, worth pasting : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/UFtzz/?raw=true
09:27	mircea_popescu	consider it pseudocode
09:28	asciilifeform	if e & 1: t = (t*b) % m
09:28	asciilifeform	it ain't pseudocode for anything useful
09:28	mircea_popescu	hater.
09:29	mircea_popescu	exp is not secret
09:30	*	asciilifeform not much into eccism, regards its presence in btc as a bug
09:31	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739455 << not so surprising, considering that bernstein himself is a quantumist
09:31	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 14:00 mircea_popescu: cultivated enough to mention bernstein&gf curve, uncomprehending enough to "post quantum algorithms". how do these happen, i wish to know.
09:32	diana_coman	asciilifeform, what is "eccism" ?
09:32	mircea_popescu	elliptic curve based crypto
09:32	asciilifeform	diana_coman: elliptic curve cipher
09:33	diana_coman	ah, thanks
09:34	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739454 << pretty deep lol , 'I chose a RSA key size of 3925 for my blog' and d00d dun seem to realize that it's exactly a 4096b modulus wit 171 leading zeros ...
09:34	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 13:57 mircea_popescu: aaand in other lulz, https://blog.josefsson.org/2016/11/03/why-i-dont-use-2048-or-4096-rsa-key-sizes/
09:34	mircea_popescu	aha
09:35	mircea_popescu	exactly in the vein above. "understands how to add, thinks 4>5."
09:35	mircea_popescu	how the fuck.
09:35	mircea_popescu	it's like penis cage for the brain, somehow.
09:35	asciilifeform	by refusing to add. 'i'm too clean to touch a shovel' is the likely pathology.
09:36	mircea_popescu	in other ongoing lulzvelopments, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/kP8vH/?raw=true
09:36	asciilifeform	crowdfunding lol
09:37	mircea_popescu	got 3-4k together so far. but they do seem vaguely promising, maybe.
09:37	mircea_popescu	if can be cleanned enough ; always a dubious proposition in english speakers.
09:37	asciilifeform	folx without ideology are like dodo. simply waiting for the ship fulla dogs to land.
09:37	diana_coman	PeterL, did you test your permutation step functions on that keccak implementation? when I feed rho a full-zero state it seems to end up with non-zero output
		↖
09:39	asciilifeform	diana_coman: interesting, and it still passed the test vectors despite this ??
09:39	diana_coman	asciilifeform, serpent passed the test vectors!!
09:39	diana_coman	NOT keccak; serpent
09:39	diana_coman	now torturing keccak and...
09:40	asciilifeform	aaaa
09:40	mircea_popescu	did it pass any others ?
09:42	diana_coman	mircea_popescu, well, he had those step functions private so initially inaccessible; so first I've tried a full test (i.e. input is this, do full keccak round, output should be this): it failed; so then I grunted through exposing the step functions at least at this stage and testing bit by bit;
09:42	mircea_popescu	and first one failed ?
09:42	diana_coman	rho step is second,what can I say; first one passed, yes (theta)
09:42	mircea_popescu	aha.
09:53	diana_coman	rho uses that Rotate_Left function which is imported from gnat; I'd rather not have it in a reference implementation tbh
09:53	diana_coman	I guess I'll test that one now...
09:54	asciilifeform	diana_coman: how do you propose to rotate without it ? as i see it, the language standard simply has a rotate-shaped hole in it
09:57	diana_coman	asciilifeform, I don't yet know the answer to that; I'm still eating Ada so I can't decide either way; still, I don't ...like it, that's all I said; perhaps there is no solution to it, perhaps there is one
09:59	asciilifeform	afaik there isn't a proper solution.
10:01	asciilifeform	it's a single fucking cpu instruction on ~all known cpu. and yet some wrecker saw it fit to exclude it from the language standard.
10:01	asciilifeform	exactly same nonsense as the carry flag thing
		↖
10:02	asciilifeform	motherfuckers, there is not a single comp made in 40 years that doesn't have a carry flag. WHY YOU HID IT
10:02	asciilifeform	it's infuriating
10:03	asciilifeform	gcc offers a built-in rotate 'illicitly', but not a portable access to carry flag. because ALSO run by wreckers.
		↖
10:03	asciilifeform	result is a 4x slower ffa.
10:04	asciilifeform	('use asm' is not an answer, i want, as diana_coman wants, a PORTABLE proggy )
10:07	asciilifeform	diana_coman: the sad fact re gnat is that it is in fact the only ada. being as the 'alternatives' are, without exception, closed winturds.
10:16	diana_coman	asciilifeform, yes, portable is the rub there; I'll read more on ada for now, nothing much to add atm
10:19	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739520 << we can afford to inline asm, seeing how minigame knows what iron it runs it on.
10:19	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 15:01 asciilifeform: exactly same nonsense as the carry flag thing
10:19	mircea_popescu	as a forinstance.
10:20	asciilifeform	discussion was re 'reference implementation'
10:20	asciilifeform	naturally on particular iron you can asm
10:20	mircea_popescu	hey, minigame produced reference implementation of ada keccak can well contain inline asm rotation, and who dun like it can do whatever they will.
		↖
10:20	mircea_popescu	reference means "what works for me" not "what works for others".
10:21	asciilifeform	'reference' has no business baking in whatever quirks of intelism, known & unknown
10:21	mircea_popescu	not per se.
10:21	mircea_popescu	but reference also has no business baking in whatever quirks of "human rights & the fyotoor", known & unknown.
10:22	asciilifeform	imho if you're gonna have asm, may as well write whole thing in it
10:22	mircea_popescu	just as reference implementation will bake in FG, and users of others are responsible for others' quirks.
10:22	asciilifeform	whereas the point of using an algorithmic lang is readability & portability.
10:22	mircea_popescu	where feasible.
10:22	asciilifeform	FG is a straight serial device tho, it doesn't lock you into any particular form
		↖
10:23	mircea_popescu	irrespective.
10:23	asciilifeform	iirc diana_coman simply opens /dev/ttywherever and reads.
10:23	mircea_popescu	aaand asm rotate is a straight asm item, it doesn't lock you etcetera.
10:23	mircea_popescu	"oh but mp, other people do it via shortwave radio" "good for them."
10:23	asciilifeform	lol
10:23	diana_coman	aand found the bug at least on this one: rho initialises Ar(0,0) BUT uses then first thing...Ar(1,0)
		↖
10:24	asciilifeform	diana_coman: PeterL by his own admission didn't test the thing at all
10:24	mircea_popescu	i suppose ye age olde "i didn't know there was interest" at play.
10:24	asciilifeform	i'm a little surprised that any part of it worked.
10:24	diana_coman	asciilifeform, it is straightforward from algo descriptions in the reference
10:25	asciilifeform	evidently not straightforward enuff..
10:25	diana_coman	the ref is quite good in this respect I'd say, not that hard to follow
10:25	diana_coman	well, they did not give you the init of variables wtf!
10:26	asciilifeform	returning to http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739533 , i will point out that inline asm is ~likewise~ a gcc-specific syntax. so if you're marrying gcc you may as well use the existing ( as seen in ffa ) rotate intrinsic.
10:26	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 15:20 mircea_popescu: hey, minigame produced reference implementation of ada keccak can well contain inline asm rotation, and who dun like it can do whatever they will.
10:27	mircea_popescu	maybe i didn't make the inline incantation sufficiently magical, but anyway. "straight asm", what'd you prefer.
10:27	asciilifeform	if yer doing a great deal of hashing , straight asm could be a win
10:27	mircea_popescu	"rotation can be directly an opcode item linked as such", how about that.
10:29	mircea_popescu	tbh, this item aside (it was just given as an ~example~ anyway), i do not expect that on the medium term we will be able to avoid "and here's the special asm library, links at link time with the rest of compiled shit" situations.
		↖
10:30	mircea_popescu	afaik lisp never actually avoided this either.
10:31	hanbot	meanwhile, what do you call a frenchman wearing sandals?
10:31	mircea_popescu	a... hm. a vandal ?
10:31	hanbot	Phillipe Phillope
10:31	mircea_popescu	ahahaha\
10:33	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739542 << this is particularily hysterical given the http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=pl2303x lulz.
10:33	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 15:22 asciilifeform: FG is a straight serial device tho, it doesn't lock you into any particular form
10:41	mircea_popescu	meanwhile in parkour, http://78.media.tumblr.com/494e71a43850359399171b48966b1dea/tumblr_nl5dlpOjCh1up90kvo1_1280.jpg
10:44	asciilifeform	i dun make the pl2303 or the related rubbishes
10:44	asciilifeform	my personal fg is plugged into a serial port.
10:44	asciilifeform	( and is made of junkyard parts, given as the actual FG stock is s.nsa inventory, lol )
10:46	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739561 << possibly i mentioned this, i am making an asm ffa in parallel with the ada item
10:46	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 15:29 mircea_popescu: tbh, this item aside (it was just given as an ~example~ anyway), i do not expect that on the medium term we will be able to avoid "and here's the special asm library, links at link time with the rest of compiled shit" situations.
10:46	asciilifeform	but the latter is to be the reference, and the former -- i 'hand compile' ~from~ the reference
10:50	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform how do you think anyh of that is relevant ?
10:51	mircea_popescu	"my personal fg is plugged into serial port and my personal ada keccak is plugged into iron on which asm works". da fuck special pleading is this.
10:59	apeloyee	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739523 << http://www.ada-auth.org/standards/rm12_w_tc1/html/RM-B-2.html
10:59	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 15:03 asciilifeform: gcc offers a built-in rotate 'illicitly', but not a portable access to carry flag. because ALSO run by wreckers.
11:01	apeloyee	it's a part of the standard, but, sadly, optional.
11:01	apeloyee	however...
11:01	apeloyee	!#s alternatives to gnat
11:01	a111	1 result for "alternatives to gnat", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=alternatives%20to%20gnat
11:09	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: rs232 is a 1960s standard, and doesn't go away simply because wintel stopped including the plug on the mobo. and world's simplest and most widely-supported standard for digital comms, moar so than ethernet ( i have whole pile of devices with 0 nic but several serialports ) , and will remain, regardless of what wintel does.
11:09	asciilifeform	so i dun see how 'special plead'
11:09	asciilifeform	apeloyee: i never grasped the lunacy of 'standard with optional pieces'
11:15	asciilifeform	back to rs232 -- it's the lingua franca . not the most snobbish ibm mainframe (which even eschewed ascii) , nor the most orcish bk0010 , nobody, ever omitted serial port. until 2010s, obummer-era pc junk.
11:16	asciilifeform	if you dun have serial, you dun have a comp, in entirely the same way that if you cannot read latin letters you are not literate.
11:19	asciilifeform	( nitpickers will note that rs232 implies particular voltages . and yes, you need a voltage converter to use ttl (e.g. fg) with actual rs232. which is inevitable, because i did not want to put a 200kHz-oscillating 5v to plusminus12v chip on fg. )
11:19	asciilifeform	you likewise need exactly same voltage converter for pogo , and most other small devices.
11:20	asciilifeform	but the logical protocol is classical rs232, 115200/8/1/noparity.
11:21	asciilifeform	to try to make analogy between world's single most supported electrical standard after 220v mains socket, and intel turdolade, is beyond ludicrous.
11:25	*	asciilifeform bbl, meat
11:32	apeloyee	motherfuckers, there is not a single comp made in 40 years that doesn't have a carry flag. << *excluding non-actual computers.
11:41	apeloyee	risc-v wreckers specified no carry flag, for instance
		↖
		~ 15 minutes ~
11:56	apeloyee	on novel physical substrate << you must be designing not just post-quantum, but post-thermodynamic crypto. :P
12:02	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform and "asm rot" is a standard etc.
12:02	mircea_popescu	"doesn't go away just because intel stops including it" to ~same degree.
12:06	mircea_popescu	to put the point on its proper footing : convention is convention, no different than any other convention. convention doth not become physical law through wide adoption, irrespective how extensive that wideness, in headcount, time, whatever.
12:07	mircea_popescu	if the convention can be "you'll need a serial capable machine", as it HAS to can be, then convention can also be "you'll need a cpu with ror/rol implemnented". whether it is decided to make it so has no bearing on whether it could be decided to make it so. that's a 1 : it could be.
12:09	mircea_popescu	and so back to the original, there can't "not be alternatives" to gnat. leaving aside the in principle argument, there's alternative by example : expose the cpu instruction and woe to anyone who won't/can't/doesn't.
12:16	mircea_popescu	and dang, why is this bch so totally taking over!
12:26	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: point is, that is no longer an ada proggy.
12:27	asciilifeform	you lose the guarantees.
12:27	mircea_popescu	well, the part that's ada is ada and the part that dun work or isn't wanted in ada... isn't ada.
12:27	mircea_popescu	just like irl.
12:28	mircea_popescu	gcc or w/e you use as a compiler,. for instance, also not an ada proggy. ada dun even try what lisp tried and failed to obtain, ie, a full universe.
12:28	asciilifeform	aaactually
12:28	mircea_popescu	yes yes
12:28	asciilifeform	gnat is an ada proggy.
12:28	mircea_popescu	(and provides its own inline asm too)
12:29	asciilifeform	but as we discussed in old thread, the single most serious problem of ada, is that it is quite difficult to implement an adatron. esp if you actually go for standard compliance.
12:29	asciilifeform	it isn't a straight imbecile mapping to the idjit cmachine cpu, as c is.
12:29	mircea_popescu	so then.
12:31	asciilifeform	standard compliance (we also had thread) is a massively underappreciated thing. it is why, e.g., diana_coman was able to take the serpent thing and build it, cleanly and without change, 20+yrs after its writing
12:31	asciilifeform	and why phf is able to execute 40 y.o. macsyma , ditto
12:31	mircea_popescu	history is traditionally anti-valuable to the plebs.
12:31	asciilifeform	( and why my 1980s serial boxen still work, etc )
12:31	asciilifeform	nao this is troo
12:32	mircea_popescu	gets in teh way of all that justwantto.
12:32	asciilifeform	see also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-04#1514935
12:32	a111	Logged on 2016-08-04 19:59 mircea_popescu: but it's certainly quite deep. the vermin doesn't merely aim to a comfortable existence, but more importantly to a memory-less situation.
12:32	mircea_popescu	incidentally, what's the ms-dos gnat compiler ? also gcc ?
12:32	asciilifeform	also
12:32	asciilifeform	it dun do 16bit mode, sadly, tho
12:33	asciilifeform	and afaik nobody ever did
12:33	mircea_popescu	meanwhile in useless tards, https://www.adacore.com/developers/development-log/NF-503-D817-011-gnat
12:33	asciilifeform	i see eggog
12:33	mircea_popescu	me too.
12:33	mircea_popescu	aand in the same vein : http://www.ada-programming.info/ASM_86_file_for_use_with_GNAT_for_MS_DOS_jQxM.html
12:34	asciilifeform	btw http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739595 is entirely correct, and quite surreal
		↖
12:34	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 16:41 apeloyee: risc-v wreckers specified no carry flag, for instance
12:34	mircea_popescu	"Cloudflare Always Online allows you to read this idiotic banner on content which, unlike cloudflare, is actually valuable and no longer around."
12:34	asciilifeform	the wreckers DELIBERATELY, unabashedly wrecked bignum performance for all time on their idiot shitiron
12:34	asciilifeform	'it ruins the pipeline'
12:34	asciilifeform	the sheer epic cixi...
12:35	mircea_popescu	i don't get it, what does carry flag ruin ?
12:35	asciilifeform	'introduces linkage between pipeline stages'
12:35	mircea_popescu	what pipeline ? the cpu execution pipeline ?
12:35	asciilifeform	aha
12:36	mircea_popescu	ok this must be the dumbest thing i heard this week.
12:36	mircea_popescu	why specifically the carry flag as opposed to you know, any other flag ?
12:36	mircea_popescu	and for that matter any register ?
12:36	asciilifeform	it's got no flags iirc.
12:36	asciilifeform	the only way to detect overflow on risc-v is the algo i used in ffa.
		↖
12:36	asciilifeform	with the extra xor and sub etc.
12:37	mircea_popescu	"your mul was executed but we refuse to tell you what it came to because you might end up using that result somewhere" ?
12:37	asciilifeform	aaha.
12:37	asciilifeform	and, it gets 'better', risc-v is the Official(tm)(r) OpenSores cpu arch.
12:37	mircea_popescu	i thought risc had a buncha cond flags
12:37	asciilifeform	other riscs.
12:37	mircea_popescu	ah.
12:37	asciilifeform	but not the Troo RMS Linux Phoundation risc .
12:38	mircea_popescu	apparently there's a lot i don't understand.
12:38	mircea_popescu	such as... why ?
12:38	asciilifeform	why wreckers wreck ?
12:38	mircea_popescu	so there's no SWI in rms-risc ?
12:39	asciilifeform	interrupt ?
12:39	asciilifeform	it has interrupt, and jumps.
12:39	mircea_popescu	no moar BL NV/EQ either ?
12:39	asciilifeform	it's got jumps. but they blow the pipeline.
12:40	mircea_popescu	is this actually used for anything ?
12:40	asciilifeform	it is 'used' for 'being The Next Troo Libre RMStronic Cpu Arch'
12:40	asciilifeform	same as hurd is 'used' .
12:40	mircea_popescu	no but i mean concretely.
12:41	asciilifeform	moar concretely they go around propagandizing that if you build a fpga board you gotta use it, because 'mips is patented' ( in what country ? even in usa patent is 25y ) or 'risc-v is simplest' ( uh, nope ) and other idiocy.
		↖
12:41	asciilifeform	but nobody afaik sells a siliconized hard implementation of it. and i dun expect that anyone will. because wtf.
12:41	mircea_popescu	so conference fodder, a buncha slideshares. cool.
12:42	asciilifeform	they also managed to waste the time of compiler back-end people, linux kernel folx, etc. with it.
12:42	mircea_popescu	can we not talk about it anymore when discussing risc ? the concept isn't actually without merit, as such.
12:42	asciilifeform	so it's a first-class wrecking. sorta like what llvm used to be prior to apple crowning it. riscv is waiting for its apple.
12:42	asciilifeform	risc is a massively broad item
12:43	asciilifeform	i.e. 'reduced instruction set' comp
12:43	mircea_popescu	"this cisc thing is too complex,. make a simple one" "why, so there can within a decade 'exist' a thousand different simplicities ?"
12:43	asciilifeform	'risc-v' is a well-crafted attempt to steal the name, much like gypsies tried to steal even the name of the country they lived in
		↖
12:44	mircea_popescu	ah, the whole "let's call gypsies romani now" thing ?
12:44	asciilifeform	aaha
12:44	mircea_popescu	some dudes organized a "congress" in 1971 in, of course, london.
12:45	mircea_popescu	(amusingly, no romanian gypsies participated)
12:45	mircea_popescu	they did lift a 1930s "gypsies of romania" congress flag tho.
12:47	mircea_popescu	anyway. lulzy outshot of this megalomaniacal protestant thing ("world council of churches").
12:47	asciilifeform	loldon, the go-to leprosorium for 'governments in exile' of all sorts, eh
12:47	asciilifeform	poles, ukrs, gypos
12:48	mircea_popescu	not exactly. the place where pacepas went before dc was established, cca 1970s/1980s
12:48	asciilifeform	it's mildly surprising he didn't end up in london
12:48	asciilifeform	with rezun
12:50	mircea_popescu	ah, right, post-ww2 reorg of gypsies also produced the gelem gelem thing
12:50	asciilifeform	'The lack of a carry bit complicates multiple-precision arithmetic – GMP, MPFR ... RISC-V does not detect or flag most arithmetic errors, including overflow, underflow and divide by zero ... Most popular programming languages do not support checks for integer overﬂow, partly because most architectures impose a signiﬁcant runtime penalty to check for overﬂow on integer arithmetic and partly because modulo arithmetic is sometim
12:50	asciilifeform	es the desired behavior' didjaknow!
12:51	mircea_popescu	twas a dubious time, lots got killed in the war, which is how eg lithuania ended up with ~none
12:51	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform so what do i get from divide by 0 ? rng ?
12:52	asciilifeform	'undefined' i bet.
12:52	mircea_popescu	yes but experimentally.
12:52	*	asciilifeform not tried
12:52	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: https://archive.is/8mp39 << from horse's mouth
12:53	asciilifeform	'-1 was value seen in other simple implementations and drops out of simple hardware implementations.'
12:53	mircea_popescu	so they use the register as an error flagh
12:54	asciilifeform	that's not an error flag -- negative 1 is a legitimate result of dividing, e.g., 100 by -100
12:54	asciilifeform	to say 'error flag' is not in line with reality of the situation -- the only correct answer to div-by-0 is eggog. and eggog != 'returns a value just like actual non-by-0 division might'
12:55	mircea_popescu	what i mean is : the fact that div by 0 produces a non-uniform distribution of bits in the register suggests to me that it is NOT as flagless as it aims to pretend.
12:55	asciilifeform	it isn't distinguishable from a conceivable legit division.
12:55	mircea_popescu	gotta keep up to our representations, neh.
12:55	asciilifeform	fwiw i know why it's -1
12:55	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform i think i do too
12:55	asciilifeform	if you remove the div0 trap from ffa, you end up likewise with a reg full of 1s. it's what knuth division produces when given a 0 divisor.
12:56	mircea_popescu	~not honestly trying to divide.
12:56	asciilifeform	well it 'tries' and tries...
12:56	mircea_popescu	ah, produces all-bits-set huh
12:56	asciilifeform	aha.
12:56	mircea_popescu	ok i take it back, this actually makes sense.
12:58	asciilifeform	!!up gabriel_laddel
12:58	deedbot	gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
12:59	asciilifeform	just when i thought d00d must've vysotskyed long ago
13:01	gabriel_laddel	asciilifeform nah. Same old thing -- selling M, treading bitch niggas and getting ~nowhere fast.
13:01	asciilifeform	gabriel_laddel: why 'getting ~nowhere' despite 'selling' ?
13:02	gabriel_laddel	~1 sale a month since last wave isn't enough.
13:03	gabriel_laddel	Could do more, but my foot is busted & surgery takes ages to schedule b/c US 'healthcare' isn't etc.
13:03	BingoBoingo	<mircea_popescu> im getting at least 4, so. proceed. << Ok, Math/Communication continues
13:04	gabriel_laddel	Speaking of which, am going to be performing self-amputation of right foot as it is in the way + I don't trust or want US doctors.
		↖
13:04	asciilifeform	ugh
13:04	gabriel_laddel	Anyone who gives me good resources (pubmed refs etc) can have the video whenever I get around to it
13:06	BingoBoingo	<mircea_popescu> ah sorry my bad, week/month nm << Number is strictly what the spot on the rack costs. Prototype "Basic Box" (AMD A8 5545 machine) should be arriving today for evaluation.
13:06	BingoBoingo	gabriel_laddel: What's going on with the foot?
13:07	BingoBoingo	Why not strap it into boot and let heal as it may
13:07	mircea_popescu	you can't do self-amputation.
		↖ ↖
13:07	gabriel_laddel	BingoBoingo right heel is totally shattered and collapsed into my upper foot.
13:07	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: iirc ( but for some reason can't find in log ) d00d fell off a roof
13:08	gabriel_laddel	mircea_popescu why not?
13:08	trinque	what the fuck.
13:08	mircea_popescu	the medieval standard is "saw the bone and sink the stump in hot oil". this works, but you'll pass out. has to be a third person.
13:09	mircea_popescu	moreover, the ~ only good thing to come out of the us is trauma medicine.
13:09	mircea_popescu	makes 0 sense to eschew THAT part of it
13:09	BingoBoingo	Also if amputaing taking off only the foot leaves small selection of expensive annoying prostheses. Knee offers more options
13:10	mircea_popescu	trinque tbh i was expecting self-hacking is in the pipeline since about a year ago.
13:10	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo well, half tibia. what knee.
13:10	trinque	some form of self-harm was never in question
13:11	mircea_popescu	anyway. stupid idea, try something else.
13:11	asciilifeform	i dun think we ever heard the full story of the roof thing either
13:11	mircea_popescu	the elliot one or the gabriel one ?
13:11	asciilifeform	the latter
13:11	trinque	whatever comes of it, it's going to compress into "I'm not qualified to be free"
13:12	gabriel_laddel	mircea_popescu Glad I brought this up. Am insured, have option of surgery.
13:12	mircea_popescu	where's that beautiful delusionist mage thing.
13:12	BingoBoingo	gabriel_laddel: Seriously get styling leather boots "Redwing Heritage" or sane world alternative (new, not broken in). Powder limb with with miconazole poweder and strap into the boot.
13:12	asciilifeform	gabriel_laddel: so waitasec wai hacking off own leg then
13:12	mircea_popescu	gabriel_laddel just go into er sometime that's not crazy (ie, not sunday at 4:10 am, not right after a shooting rampage etc. they'll sort it out)
13:12	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Faster!
13:13	gabriel_laddel	asciilifeform surgon irritates me on a personal level + the first time stanford tried it, they fucked up
13:13	mircea_popescu	uh.
13:13	ben_vulpes	how did you even come to fall off the roof, dude?
13:13	trinque	"they fucked up turning my chalk dust of a heel into a foot again"
13:14	*	trinque goes to perform constructive self harm at the gym
13:14	gabriel_laddel	Fed me too much fluid prior to anaesthetic, which flooded lungs when knocked out. Ended up in ICU for 4 days.
13:14	mircea_popescu	lol sounds like you've got a decent malpraxis case.
13:15	BingoBoingo	Seriously, gabriel_laddel How many rack units do you want to lease once lawyer loves the surgeon's butthole a bit?
13:15	gabriel_laddel	BingoBoingo I can't parse that.
13:15	mircea_popescu	lol
13:16	gabriel_laddel	ben_vulpes I jumped from one roof to the other with electricity.
13:16	gabriel_laddel	ben_vulpes grabbed edge but couldn't pull myself up.
13:16	BingoBoingo	gabriel_laddel: You are going to get a lawyer. Your lawyer is going to probe the surgeon's colon with his suing member over that lung fluid thing. You will have money. Might as well rent some rackspace and grow your small business.
13:17	BingoBoingo	<gabriel_laddel> ben_vulpes grabbed edge but couldn't pull myself up. << Most other Americans can't do pull ups either.
13:17	ben_vulpes	that's a pretty novice anaesthesia mistake
13:18	gabriel_laddel	ben_vulpes Stanford hospital is a scary place. They lied to me MANY times about how many xrays I'd get, that they'd let me get copies...
13:18	BingoBoingo	Well, you get copies from copy office
13:19	BingoBoingo	Just haven't knocked the right door to find it yet?
13:19	mircea_popescu	the lung flood anesthesia thing is pretty much textbook medical tort by now.
13:19	ben_vulpes	i wonder if there's some "we're a learning hospital, might kill ya, gonna bill ya" going on
13:19	ben_vulpes	scuse me, "teaching hospital"
13:19	gabriel_laddel	ben_vulpes yep.
13:20	mircea_popescu	"plox sign this here release"
13:20	ben_vulpes	also, does your insurance somehow only cover the stanford hospital?
13:20	mircea_popescu	lulz of all time. "say what ?" "you know, in case anything happens..." "yeees ?"
13:20	gabriel_laddel	ben_vulpes I have nfi. Never used insurance before.
13:20	ben_vulpes	because still on parental plan and they work at the department of bezzletronic edumacation ?
13:20	BingoBoingo	<ben_vulpes> scuse me, "teaching hospital" << Does not indemnify
13:21	gabriel_laddel	Will compile a report with names of doctors & so forth from paperwork I have, this adhoc bs is silly.
13:21	gabriel_laddel	(and my fault, of course)
13:21	ben_vulpes	hey, show up with a crazy story, get a bunch of crazy questions
13:21	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo ben_vulpes wait, wait, they came up with a loophole in the whole "Standard of care" scam ? "as long as you doctor for stanford, you get to opt out of the usg lawyer insanity" ?
13:22	BingoBoingo	gabriel_laddel: Open a phone book. Find the second biggest lawyer ad (i.e. takes one whole page instead of two) call them. today
13:22	ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: i have no idea what eldritch magick the stanford lawyer brigade has worked up
13:22	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: They have not, but they will play like they have until you get specialist lawyer involved
13:22	mircea_popescu	ah. i see.
13:22	ben_vulpes	probably ^
13:22	BingoBoingo	Specialist being exactly the sort of lawyer who runs ads on daytime tv
13:22	ben_vulpes	reminds me, i have my own willful violation of patient privacy case to get the ball rolling on
13:23	ben_vulpes	BingoBoingo: who has a phone book tho
13:23	mircea_popescu	it'd be pretty sweet for them if they manage, imagine the wonder "either slave for us or die out in the insane wilds". ideal stanfordism. kinds see why they'd pretend like it's the case -- in the hopes one day they can make it be the case.
13:23	BingoBoingo	ben_vulpes: Surprisingly most doctor's offices
13:23	BingoBoingo	<gabriel_laddel> Will compile a report with names of doctors & so forth from paperwork I have, this adhoc bs is silly. << You have no need to do this. Lawyer handles
13:24	mircea_popescu	what's the take by now ? 45% ?
13:24	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Unsure. Varies county by county within each state
13:24	mircea_popescu	a
13:25	BingoBoingo	And the attraction of a Stanford for a doctor is exactly "take this salary, we'll put you on our insurance"
13:26	mircea_popescu	aha.
13:27	gabriel_laddel	BingoBoingo having dated an aspiring stanford doctor -- is where the failed engineers go.
13:27	BingoBoingo	This means your remora of a lawyer has to be a specialist at this. It isn't podunk Doctor's malpractice carrier. It's Stanfords.
13:28	BingoBoingo	The key to the US med mal racket however, is speed. You call the fucking lawyer TODAY gabriel_laddel
13:28	gabriel_laddel	BingoBoingo am in el camino hospital right now, getting a phonebook & phone..
13:29	BingoBoingo	!!Up gabriel_laddel
13:29	deedbot	gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes.
13:29	BingoBoingo	gabriel_laddel: Does your room have a TV?
13:29	ben_vulpes	this is a surprising turning point, gabriel_laddel actually taking instruction
13:30	BingoBoingo	gabriel_laddel: If your room has TV watch trashy daytime TV and count the commercials each lawyer has.
13:30	gabriel_laddel	BingoBoingo am here to visit a friend in psyc ward, totally unrelated to my issue.
13:30	ben_vulpes	tmsr as higher power of last resort
13:30	mircea_popescu	meanwhile in strange swellings, http://78.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m1wh8pw3hP1rs9xqgo1_1280.jpg
13:30	BingoBoingo	gabriel_laddel: Still, watch the tv with friend. Have him check your count
13:31	gabriel_laddel	ben_vulpes: tsmr as the only honest, straightforwards, USEFUL collection of humans I'm aware of...
13:31	mircea_popescu	makes two of us.
13:34	ben_vulpes	in other news, the anti-flirt brigade brought a democrat down today; "al franken"
13:34	mircea_popescu	o noes.
13:35	ben_vulpes	but it couldn't happen, pantsuit tools clearly can only ever be used by them against their enemies
		↖
13:35	ben_vulpes	no troo pantsuit!
13:36	mircea_popescu	well, in that they're not so much tools as collected nonsense.
13:36	BingoBoingo	!~ticker market all
13:36	jhvh1	BingoBoingo: (ticker [--bid\|--ask\|--last\|--high\|--low\|--avg\|--vol] [--currency XXX] [--market <market>\|all]) -- Return pretty-printed ticker. Default market is Bitfinex. If one of the result options is given, returns only that numeric result (useful for nesting in calculations). If '--currency XXX' option is given, returns ticker for that three-letter currency code. It is up to you to make sure the code is a valid (1 more message)
13:36	BingoBoingo	!~ticker --market all
13:36	jhvh1	BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 7747.8, vol: 16460.21925547 \| Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 7733.4, vol: 65530.71994791 \| Kraken BTCUSD last: 7630.0, vol: 8159.70132689 \| Volume-weighted last average: 7726.67030894
13:36	mircea_popescu	holy.
13:37	BingoBoingo	<ben_vulpes> in other news, the anti-flirt brigade brought a democrat down today; "al franken" << Oh, is he the one who molested the black muscle guy?
13:37	mircea_popescu	i thought bitcoin cash was taking over, wtf happened.
13:38	BingoBoingo	gabriel_laddel started taking instruction?
		~ 27 minutes ~
14:05	BingoBoingo	!!up PeterL
14:05	deedbot	PeterL voiced for 30 minutes.
14:07	PeterL	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739503 << http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/NrPiu/?raw=true << the 0,0 row is not moved and not shifted (actually the paper calls it shifted by 0), I think the function should return full 0 state if fed a full 0 state
14:07	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 14:37 diana_coman: PeterL, did you test your permutation step functions on that keccak implementation? when I feed rho a full-zero state it seems to end up with non-zero output
14:17	PeterL	I guess that was more answering http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739548
14:17	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 15:23 diana_coman: aand found the bug at least on this one: rho initialises Ar(0,0) BUT uses then first thing...Ar(1,0)
14:18	PeterL	rho starts with setting Ar(0,0) to A(0,0), then loops over the rest of the Ar(0,1) to Ar(4,4) so the function does set all 25 lanes
		↖
14:21	PeterL	A being the input array and Ar being the output array; I was trying to follow notation as in the paper, but they use a and A, which ada does not allow
14:31	asciilifeform	meanwhile, in heathendom, https://twitter.com/getongab/status/930572995306721280
14:35	mircea_popescu	lmao what is this ridiculous nonsense ?
14:35	diana_coman	PeterL, hm; it seems though to end up with funny stuff if the output array is not initialised
14:35	diana_coman	will look at it again
14:36	diana_coman	!!up PeterL
14:36	deedbot	PeterL voiced for 30 minutes.
14:36	mircea_popescu	rando indian is somehow in a position to speak for "ethereum", an on-again-off-again acquarium of rank imbeciles who couldnt manage to as much as paint the basement they inhabited, if it came to it ?
14:36	mircea_popescu	too many failure levels. who the fuck is vinay gupta and what the fuck is ethereum to opine on things ?
14:38	ben_vulpes	> Attempting to make it culturally and socially impossible for neonazis to migrate to the Etherum platform is, in my opinion, necessary for its survival. We cannot censor, but we can and must fight on every other level to dissuade these people from colonizing our utopian efforts.
14:38	mircea_popescu	anyway. pretty fucking epic keks. ethereum became a sort of jokecoin after the rape, which i suppose brings the moral home : rape is educative.
14:38	ben_vulpes	> This is our watch: keep nazis off decentralize uncensorable platforms!
14:39	mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes really, ideal ceo from a comedy gold delivery perspective.
14:39	ben_vulpes	i cannot fathom the confusion of ideas that would lead someone to say such a thing
14:40	ben_vulpes	brain must have cooked through at burning man
14:42	mircea_popescu	the french approach : since we know we can't win, might as well burn the stack down in a memorable way.
14:50	asciilifeform	apre moi le shitdeluge
14:50	mircea_popescu	better than the doge fizzle.
14:50	mircea_popescu	(~100% eth equivalent for the 2015 tardcrowd)
14:52	asciilifeform	oblig: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-09#1735502
14:52	a111	Logged on 2017-11-09 19:39 asciilifeform: meanwhile in entomologies, http://yahozna.dyndns.org/scratch/loser.gif
14:53	asciilifeform	^ inextricably linked in asciilifeform's head nao with phrase 'since we can't win...'
14:53	mircea_popescu	o hey, we have a resolution! http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/vtDXh/?raw=true
14:53	mircea_popescu	(thum being thomas umbach, the one man behind the ~one man orchestra involved)
14:53	asciilifeform	ahahahaha
14:54	mircea_popescu	hey. decisive beats piddly irrespective of any other considerations.
14:54	asciilifeform	was gonna say. at least was upfront.
14:55	asciilifeform	'we're funded privately' << can you say inqtel folx ? yeswecan!
14:55	mircea_popescu	nah, moar likely wife's father sorta deal.
14:55	asciilifeform	inqtel's missing out on the 'next tor' then.
14:56	mircea_popescu	intel can't possibly throw money at every "allied" orcdom's here's-our-rack thing.
14:56	asciilifeform	in-q-tel
14:56	asciilifeform	!#s in-q-tel
14:56	a111	11 results for "in-q-tel", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=in-q-tel
14:56	mircea_popescu	yes yes\
14:56	asciilifeform	and at every no. but not so many of these.
14:57	mircea_popescu	plenty. this is what, 2nd this week ?
14:57	asciilifeform	(i.e. specifically 'fleadom'-flavoured item )
14:57	mircea_popescu	i guess/
14:59	mircea_popescu	reich media/wikipedia greatly overstate both the reach and the capital available to teh gestapo.
15:00	asciilifeform	iirc i dug up & posted the tax filings from inqtel here a few yrs back
15:00	asciilifeform	iirc added up to 100megabux or so / yr
15:01	mircea_popescu	did they get moar "oh usg decided to "sell" keyhole to google thereby inqtel has a coupla mn dollars now" sortas items ?
15:01	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform the number is ~same as say "ethereum market cap". if you trust the printers, it's whatever they print.
15:01	asciilifeform	probably. i have not been keeping up in realtime.
15:02	asciilifeform	and noshit it isn't as if they pay in btc or gold, 100% printolade-powered item
15:02	mircea_popescu	if they find four more of the same thing, they can almost pay for that yacht the current saudi boy wonder beached while driving drunk coupla years ago.
15:02	asciilifeform	and naturally i have nfi what's in the second set of books they keep -- for all i know they ~did~ pay for that yacht.
15:03	mircea_popescu	"apple could buy russia and inqtel could buy a fifth of mohammad bin salman's drunken romp"
15:03	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform no need, saudis are rich. and unlike all the OTHER princes, this one totally uncorrupt and errything :D
15:03	asciilifeform	lol
15:04	mircea_popescu	how fucking dumb teh remains of usg.blue must be to re-do the ~exact~ ukraine failure is anyone's guess...
15:04	mircea_popescu	recall the pics with that tall schmuck and kerry pressed together into a us-made floating sardine can
15:05	asciilifeform	they've been replaying the exact same program ever since it worked for killing the old shoemaker.
15:06	mircea_popescu	what the fuck was his name, the eager brunette cocksucker.
15:07	asciilifeform	usg.blue quite like the stereotypical idjit gambler, wearing ancient crusty shirt he once jackpotted in
15:09	*	mircea_popescu is too lazy to dig the pics up. for all teh diff it makes...
15:17	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform ftr, i'm rather doubtful as to actual usg involvement in that. seems a case of "hitchhiker comes across bute, pushes it into the chasm below". well, it's true that "hitchhiker pushed as hard as he could", but it's also true that he didn;t make or specifically find bute.
15:17	mircea_popescu	geological phenomena are not specifically open to human "performance" claims lest we end up inventing a new set of sun priest outfits for ourselves.
15:18	asciilifeform	in other lulz, asciilifeform unpacks a small crate of b00kz from ru, and finds that the rus-ro dictionary, shrinkwrapped, but inside : item from 1942 !
15:18	mircea_popescu	(ie, the false belief that "i pushed - rock obeyed" is dangerous to the "successful" pusher first and foremost -- in a decade or two he finds himself in the laughable position of kerry & friends)
15:18	mircea_popescu	o hey!
15:19	asciilifeform	i've picked up 'old-new stock' before, but this is somethingelse.
15:21	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: and yes, it was exactly 'jackpot shirt'
15:22	ben_vulpes	> libre
15:22	ben_vulpes	> allergic to notion of nato reich
15:22	ben_vulpes	wat
15:23	asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: exactly like every other 'let's tor, let's wank to isidora whorecraft watshername' folx, neh
15:23	asciilifeform	aka usg.blue
15:26	ben_vulpes	what does 'blue' indicate here?
15:27	asciilifeform	ben_vulpes: iirc originally taken from colours of old usa electoral map
15:28	asciilifeform	here applies to the 'soft power' species of usgcrat ( in contrast with 'red' , 'weapons of mass destruction!' species )
15:28	asciilifeform	think 'tor', 'voice of america', 'internationalkomyooniti' people.
15:28	ben_vulpes	hm
15:28	ben_vulpes	is there some 'color revolution' subtext to it as well?
15:29	asciilifeform	folx in question are the orig authors of the concept, yes
15:31	asciilifeform	https://archive.is/FpOIq << in other 'red' lulz.
15:38	mircea_popescu	ben_vulpes there's this theory whereby usg oligarchy (ie, the pile of fundamentally corrupt underpinnings of the state, as all state ever is based on corruption nad naught else, which is why colonizers attempt to "root out corruption" in colonial posessions) is split into red section (raytheon and friends) and blue section (stanford and friends)
15:40	BingoBoingo	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739440 << Update on the proceeding, not-gypsy letter from self's current bank schedule to arrive in 7-10 days. Puts departure around December 1st. Hunting any other sources of delay out.
		↖
15:40	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 13:15 mircea_popescu: im getting at least 4, so. proceed.
15:41	mircea_popescu	there's a great southpark episode explaining how this false dychotomy is intended to work in practice (i'm a bit couintry & im a bit rock and roll item)
		↖
15:42	mircea_popescu	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T8jvEJngh4M << item
15:45	ben_vulpes	neato BingoBoingo
15:46	mircea_popescu	i r get notice this exists in proper text format, so let's put it in teh archive then http://southpark.wikia.com/wiki/I%27m_a_Little_Bit_Country/Script
		~ 34 minutes ~
16:20	BingoBoingo	ben_vulpes: How many RU are you interested in?
16:21	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo learned teh hard sell at the school of hard knocks.
16:25	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: lol gotta get the rack full to make the math work
16:26	BingoBoingo	Also selling grass seed at the BingoBoingo store
16:28	*	BingoBoingo sells grass seed like so: Are you starting over or overseeding? How big of an area of your covering? These two products are the only things regionally appropriate here. You will buy X bags of A or Y bags of B. Which do you want?
16:29	mircea_popescu	does it work ?
16:33	BingoBoingo	Always.
16:33	BingoBoingo	Protests are met with explanations of their idea's inadequacies.
16:33	mircea_popescu	men and women equally well ?
16:34	BingoBoingo	Works smoothest with women under 40. Old women and old men protest most before surrendering.
16:34	mircea_popescu	the supply store, like a snowball!
16:34	BingoBoingo	Occasional fool goes for "Kentucky 31" tall fescue instead and wonders why their yard looks like a weedy lime green wheat field later
16:36	BingoBoingo	Weed control sales interactions are even more hard ball.
16:37	BingoBoingo	But smoother except for black men who have trouble understanding the mechanics of poisoning and aren't afraid to hide their ignorace through protest.
16:43	deedbot	http://trilema.com/2017/mimi-metallurgico-ferito-nellonore/ << Trilema - Mimi metallurgico ferito nell'onore
		~ 34 minutes ~
17:17	diana_coman	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739830 <- PeterL you are right in that problem with your rho was more subtle: it should set all lanes but it didn't because of how new coordinates were calculated; basically you lose old x in the process and end up calculating newY as 5oldY instead of 2oldX+3*oldY
		↖ ↖
17:17	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 19:18 PeterL: rho starts with setting Ar(0,0) to A(0,0), then loops over the rest of the Ar(0,1) to Ar(4,4) so the function does set all 25 lanes
17:30	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739909 << oh hey BingoBoingo has place to move to in south amer nao ??
17:30	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 20:40 BingoBoingo: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739440 << Update on the proceeding, not-gypsy letter from self's current bank schedule to arrive in 7-10 days. Puts departure around December 1st. Hunting any other sources of delay out.
17:32	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739930 << this was probably the most frequent logical mistake asciilifeform made when writing first draft of ffa ( in particular, the shifts )
17:32	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 22:17 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739830 <- PeterL you are right in that problem with your rho was more subtle: it should set all lanes but it didn't because of how new coordinates were calculated; basically you lose old x in the process and end up calculating newY as 5oldY instead of 2oldX+3*oldY
17:32	asciilifeform	always ask 'what happens if the output and input are same memory'
17:33	asciilifeform	or, worse yet, overlap partially.
17:39	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Have datacenter, working on details that surround that
17:41	asciilifeform	!~later tell ben_vulpes https://github.com/threonorm/simulisp/blob/master/SCHEME-79/SCHEME-79%20Lisp%20on%20a%20chip.pdf << ( yes, pdf, it's an ancient scan, 1981 ) very spiffy review article by sussman re the famous scheme79 chip; also pertinent to anyone writing simple lisptrons of whatever kind
		↖
17:41	jhvh1	asciilifeform: The operation succeeded.
17:41	asciilifeform	spyked ^ et al
17:43	asciilifeform	( see also http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-14#1738302 and elsewhere )
17:43	a111	Logged on 2017-11-14 20:45 phf: it's funny that 36xx series is basically an improved cadr. ivory on the other hand? literally scheme86: they poached both the main guy who worked on the cpu ~and the entire toolset~. ivory was still designed on CADR (rather than smbx), because that's where scheme team designed theirs
17:44	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: neato
17:45	asciilifeform	for some reason asciilifeform immediately pictured BingoBoingo living inside a 42u cabinet, diogenes-style
		↖
17:50	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Well, after whatever hotel comes with flight may be living in hostel dorm for first few months.
		↖
17:50	BingoBoingo	Which will of course cost ~100-150 more than fiscal address will
18:04	PeterL	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739930 << damn, kindergarten level mistake there. I am used to thinking like in python you can do x,y = y, x+y or whatever
18:04	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 22:17 diana_coman: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739830 <- PeterL you are right in that problem with your rho was more subtle: it should set all lanes but it didn't because of how new coordinates were calculated; basically you lose old x in the process and end up calculating newY as 5oldY instead of 2oldX+3*oldY
		~ 1 hours 19 minutes ~
19:24	asciilifeform	in other lulz, http://www.nitehawk.com/rasmit/dsp50.html << 'amateur radio' people. but only linked for the hilarious javascript malware that the dumb schmuck ended up silently hosting, by using 'webcounter' , http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/P3ywj/?raw=true , results in loading http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/Z4dlh/?raw=true crapola ,
19:24	asciilifeform	and invites chumper to install 'incognito internet browser plugin' and other joys
19:26	asciilifeform	culprit : http://www.motigo.com >> 'Create your own website statistics system with visitor counters for free!' etc.
		~ 1 hours 1 minutes ~
20:27	mircea_popescu	not just pdf, but a %20 plagued url like it's windows 95 all over again
20:28	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739945 << dun be ridiculous, more expensive than living on boat.
		↖
20:28	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 22:45 asciilifeform: for some reason asciilifeform immediately pictured BingoBoingo living inside a 42u cabinet, diogenes-style
20:28	mircea_popescu	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739946 << great way to make friends / polish language tho. i'd say mandatory entry point.
20:28	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 22:50 BingoBoingo: asciilifeform: Well, after whatever hotel comes with flight may be living in hostel dorm for first few months.
20:30	mircea_popescu	else if(!("712837" in motigoCounterLoaded)) << lolled.
		~ 23 minutes ~
20:53	asciilifeform	spoiler: it ~randomly infests some % of clicked links
20:54	mircea_popescu	i believe the word is "monetizes".
		~ 1 hours 14 minutes ~
22:09	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Well, I figure hotel that comes with ticket offers a bit of security when it's needed for things to get to rack. Hostel afterwards because moving to Montevideo during high tourist season (fucking Argentines)
22:14	BingoBoingo	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-17#1739954 << Not so expensive given my power needs if I get internet connectivity elsewhere
22:14	a111	Logged on 2017-11-17 01:28 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739945 << dun be ridiculous, more expensive than living on boat.
22:17	mod6	finally ate l0g
22:18	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo hm ?
22:18	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: If I was housing myself in the rack instead of boxes
22:19	mircea_popescu	yeees ?
22:22	*	BingoBoingo wonders what timeline is on more seekritive alf-isp
22:24	BingoBoingo	Anyways collected plan for presence during formative period of TBI in Montevideo is live in hostel, fiscal address and coffee at coworking site, lots of walking
22:28	mircea_popescu	sound like fun ?
22:29	BingoBoingo	Very!
22:31	*	BingoBoingo digesting "Pimsleur" to train write head around core of language since... usuage at the BingoBoingo store tends to focus on small subset.
22:41	mircea_popescu	and in other trilema antiques, http://trilema.com/2012/in-re-hein-hettinga-et-al-v-usofa/#selection-35.0-39.623
		↖
22:45	*	BingoBoingo blogging summary of present status
22:53	asciilifeform	meanwhile asciilifeform learned that the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-10-24#1728402 slogan originated from herr ceaușescu
22:53	a111	Logged on 2017-10-24 22:04 asciilifeform: and also the 'don't know history is like children who don't know their parent' thing
22:53	mircea_popescu	not sure about origination, but sure, used.
22:53	asciilifeform	( graffitiism found all over timis )
22:57	asciilifeform	http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-17#1739973 << whole verdict is interesting read
22:57	a111	Logged on 2017-11-17 03:41 mircea_popescu: and in other trilema antiques, http://trilema.com/2012/in-re-hein-hettinga-et-al-v-usofa/#selection-35.0-39.623
22:57	mircea_popescu	aha
22:57	mircea_popescu	textbook "we give up" by vhs-usa.
22:57	asciilifeform	and on top of this recall that milk in usa tastes like shit. because pasteurized.
22:57	asciilifeform	mandatorily, in all 50 states.
22:58	mircea_popescu	mno. see, i had pasteurized milk, in romania. it was fine. different, but fine
22:58	mircea_popescu	us milk is UHT'd. this is a different process from pasteurization.
22:58	asciilifeform	i had both in most recent voyage, could definitely tell the diff b/w joiana and conventional
22:58	mircea_popescu	yes, because by usg mandate romania moved from pasteurization to uht-ization
22:58	asciilifeform	but yes, both ahead of ultra-premium in usa
22:59	asciilifeform	the only way to get joiana-type in usa is to actually own a cow
22:59	mircea_popescu	uht being "ultra-pasteurization" in the sense sysco is ultra-restaurantization
23:00	mircea_popescu	(chief difference being that heating milk to 135 degrees for a couppa minutes maillards most of the long fats ; whereas classical process, half that temperature, did not nor could not)
23:01	mircea_popescu	(the difference is that 135/1s milk is shelf-stable for up to a year, whereas traditional 72degree/15s milk is shelf stable for maybe two weeks)
23:01	asciilifeform	btw there exists a next step after this, and the typical 'flyover state' denizen already eats it : powder
23:01	asciilifeform	i expect it will be mandatory at some point. that, or soy 'milk'.
23:02	mircea_popescu	anyway. the lower temp thing is 1933 standard, related to the hettinga thing. the process is designed to kill a pathogen that... you don't have to have, and well kept cows don't have.
23:02	asciilifeform	( cows! consider, so ecologically ungodly, or whatever )
23:02	mircea_popescu	it allowed the move away from farmed cows into the abominable us-style groweries
23:02	mircea_popescu	so it is evidently counter-productive, not that anyone ever bothered to point this out.
23:03	asciilifeform	'hatefact'
23:03	mircea_popescu	ie, nobody will ever say "mad cow disease exists because usda introduced mandatory milk pasteurization in 1933 taking advantage of the 'overproduction' of milk the usg generated artificially through fucking the currency"
		↖
23:04	mircea_popescu	notwithstanding that this is entirely factual, humans INVENTED a new, lethal disease for bos primigenus, BECAUSE retarded usg regulation has the unwelcome effect of responsibility divestment.
23:05	mircea_popescu	so you know, usg wants to talk about how "companies don't correctly account for their externalities and global warming", provided of course we don't talk about how usg doesn't correctly account for ITS externalities and kreutzfeld-jakobs.
23:05	mircea_popescu	moar of the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-11-16#1739813
23:05	a111	Logged on 2017-11-16 18:35 ben_vulpes: but it couldn't happen, pantsuit tools clearly can only ever be used by them against their enemies
23:05	asciilifeform	bonus is that pasteurization ( and for that matter anything short of incineration ) does 0 against prion. if it were excreted in milk , usa would be depopulated crater long ago
23:06	mircea_popescu	i lost oxtail soup to these imbeciles, and i will take a pound of flesh and nothing else to make it right.
23:08	*	asciilifeform wonders if gamma sterilization of meat is mandatory yet in usa
23:08	mircea_popescu	it miught be, considering how terrible usda approved meat is these days.
23:09	asciilifeform	was introduced for same reason as milk pasteurization
23:09	asciilifeform	' Electron-beam treated ground beef and poultry probably will be in supermarkets by late spring 2000' << from http://animalscience.psu.edu/extension/meat/pdf/IrradFctSheet.pdf , full lully at http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/i1qmA/?raw=true
23:11	mircea_popescu	in fairness not much different from showing the meat a lot of daytime tv.
23:12	asciilifeform	!#s deinococcus
23:12	a111	2 results for "deinococcus", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=deinococcus
23:12	asciilifeform	^ see also.
23:12	mircea_popescu	whoa, THAT is in the logs ?
23:12	asciilifeform	sure is.
23:12	mircea_popescu	i r impresst.
23:14	asciilifeform	as for 'daytime tv', whacking object with high energy particle ( photon or electron, for this case dun matter ) gives free radical.
23:14	mircea_popescu	but "scientists have reviewed studies", plus denmark, plus the food does not become radioactive. SO ITS OK!
23:15	asciilifeform	( as well as random breakdown strange, a la miller urey tube )
23:15	mircea_popescu	"running windows does not make the monitor punch me in the face, scientists have found. therefore windows legit os."
23:15	asciilifeform	not radioactive, no ( until some joker introduces... neutron sterilization, lol )
23:16	asciilifeform	oh also pretty great for revving up mutation in the surviving microbes
23:16	mircea_popescu	there is that.
23:16	asciilifeform	( process where various microbes were bred for biowar in su, was not wholly dissimilar from the meat sterilizer... )
23:16	mircea_popescu	exactly the process of above, "make regulation to feel important about self in 1933, get new, wholly human made disease by 1973".
23:17	mircea_popescu	by 2040 we'll have "nobody could have predicted" and "usg tards still respectable / government still needed / state still important BECAUSE ALTERNATIVES UNTHINKABLE!!1" as per usual.
23:18	asciilifeform	'Moar Needed Than Ever, Now That We Have Fuckwitz-Brainmelt Disease'
23:18	mircea_popescu	right.
23:18	mircea_popescu	"and who created that ?" "dunno."
23:18	mircea_popescu	"it's not the direct result of having a congress ?"
23:30	deedbot	http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2017/11/16/tbi-mid-november-update/ << Bingo Blog - TBI Mid November Update
23:31	BingoBoingo	^ Summary of what thing is thus far, comment and especially criticism welcome.
23:31	asciilifeform	oh hey hey hey lbj
23:32	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: notbad. other than the 100M ethernet per rack thing
23:34	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: More can be added to rack. Adding connection as symmetrical dedicated is Mucho Dinero. Adding connecection as asymmetrical is less.
23:37	BingoBoingo	And irony of ironies, alf and Bingo flip on bandwidth
23:41	BingoBoingo	Conversation did begin as they all did with 10 to 20 Gbps ask, moved to expected sustained transfer + headroom
23:49	asciilifeform	BingoBoingo: i see 100M per-box as reasonable low end
23:50	asciilifeform	that's wat, 4g per cabinet.
23:51	BingoBoingo	100 Mbps, guaranteed International speed is 3000 USd and change
23:53	BingoBoingo	In Uruguay and in HK.
23:53	asciilifeform	sounds like massive gouge
23:55	asciilifeform	i can picture the backroom convo, 'hey how many zeros can we glue to the gringo's price'
		↖
23:58	BingoBoingo	Hong Kong happy to offer 10 Gbps at that price... for traffic within Hong Kong (rest of PRC, International, 50 Mbps, 100 Mbps still moar)
23:59	mircea_popescu	lel tehboingo, isp.
23:59	mircea_popescu	notbad
23:59	BingoBoingo	tyvm

← 2017-11-15 | 2017-11-17 → ↑