| 00:00 |
BingoBoingo |
<mod6> not sure if i saw that one. will follow up with a blowtorch << Give more time with the heat. |
| |
~ 1 hours 15 minutes ~ |
| 01:15 |
mircea_popescu |
to clarify mod6 : the boiling in tomato juice is a joke/throwback to the old days, when this was the way to dispose of flexible disks (esp the 5 inch ones), where the magnetic zone stands on some cheapo plastic. hard drives haven't used that style of platter for many years now, it's usually doped glass these days. boiling that doesn't do much of anything, but you can just crack the platters with a hammer/wrench whatever. |
| 01:16 |
mircea_popescu |
the idea in both cases is that data storage depends on a very fixed relationship between geometry and magnetic substrate. breaking that (such as through boiling plastic, or cracking glass) is as good an approach as any "direct" method, and what's more stacks with any direct method. |
| |
↖ |
| 01:24 |
mod6 |
ah. |
| 01:25 |
mod6 |
thought there was something serious to the pH of the tomato sauce that would etch? the platters somewhat. |
| 01:25 |
mod6 |
regardless, thanks for pointing that out. |
| |
~ 5 hours 59 minutes ~ |
| 07:25 |
Framedragger |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160829/from:606/to:606#606 << something like this? (default font, i'm not a fan of blitzy web69.0 fonts, either). i'll have some time to write the link citation part for the bot, as well as search, too. won't be today though |
| 07:25 |
Framedragger |
mircea_popescu: and i'll implement these things even if phf's bot becomes more reliable or w/e, because, decentralization!1 |
| |
↖ |
| |
~ 27 minutes ~ |
| 07:53 |
Framedragger |
restarting machine which does the logging to double-check that things reconnect in case of power failure etc., too. |
| 08:08 |
Framedragger |
[test new line in log] |
| 08:08 |
Framedragger |
mkay. |
| 08:10 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-30#1531726 << if enemy finds a small fragment of modern hdd... it may well have 100s of MB, quite readable |
| 08:10 |
a111 |
Logged on 2016-08-30 05:16 mircea_popescu: the idea in both cases is that data storage depends on a very fixed relationship between geometry and magnetic substrate. breaking that (such as through boiling plastic, or cracking glass) is as good an approach as any "direct" method, and what's more stacks with any direct method. |
| 08:11 |
Framedragger |
(final thing - sending SIGKILL and seeing what happens |
| |
~ 49 minutes ~ |
| 09:01 |
asciilifeform |
$up gabriel_laddel |
| 09:01 |
deedbot |
gabriel_laddel voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 09:02 |
gabriel_laddel |
jackdaniel just submitted a working hack around the last showstopping McCLIM bug. |
| 09:02 |
gabriel_laddel |
This leaves 38 forms to be implemented, many of which are simply sitting in the (crappy) franz implementation |
| 09:02 |
gabriel_laddel |
If anyone wants to be WAY ahead of the curve, now would be the time to update your websites stating that you offer CLIM support / build CLIM programs aor start a marketing campaign. |
| 09:03 |
gabriel_laddel |
The tardstalks who put the "commercial support" section on the McCLIM website at the very end of a page for developers (lol: https://common-lisp.net/project/mcclim/involve) will probably take several months to organize. They don't english very well, and someone who does will have quite the advantage. |
| 09:14 |
mircea_popescu |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:143/to:143#143 << that's jus' fine. |
| 09:14 |
mircea_popescu |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:149/to:149#149 << eh, you're thinking of some meta-enemy that lives in a parallel universe where different laws apply. |
| 09:16 |
mircea_popescu |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:158/to:158#158 << it's not clear to me what "clim support" does for a website ; i am certainly not going to expend marketing resources on some item i don't own. this last bit is particularly pernicious, incidentally - is this clim thing even breaking the law ? why the fuck am i supposed to confuse a bunch of usg-tools for my own men ? |
| 09:17 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: i parsed the sentence in same way at first |
| 09:18 |
asciilifeform |
but it looks like gabriel_laddel was speaking of 'clim support' as a type of plumbing service, which presumably he offers. |
| 09:18 |
mircea_popescu |
i suppose it's how this whole "online" thing worked for ever and ever : "corporate" creates a baited hook ; "consumer" mistakes baited hook for fish, gives his trust to google and his data to facebook. what am i, fucken retarded ?! |
| 09:18 |
asciilifeform |
(why he posted this here, and immediately vanished, i do not know.) |
| 09:18 |
mircea_popescu |
the odds of mistaking friend and foe to quite the degree should be evidently dismal. |
| 09:19 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform i don't get it, so like, "electric car recharging" ? in the sense that i'd whitelabel it off him ? |
| 09:19 |
asciilifeform |
nah, in the sense that someone, somewhere, would 'hey i need a climization of proggy, who shall i call...' |
| 09:20 |
mircea_popescu |
and he calls me ? |
| 09:21 |
asciilifeform |
well, spams. |
| 09:21 |
asciilifeform |
'custom reactor vessels! cement poured while you wait! call (...' |
| 09:21 |
mircea_popescu |
ok and then i call gabriel laddel ? |
| 09:21 |
asciilifeform |
presumably. |
| 09:22 |
mircea_popescu |
so how is this different from "in the sense that i'd whitelabel it off him ?" |
| 09:22 |
asciilifeform |
do i understand the term correctly ? whitelabel is something one does with a turnkey (e.g., air compressor) item |
| 09:23 |
mircea_popescu |
well generally, whitelabel is whenever one uses his own connections to market someone else's product as if it were his own. |
| 09:23 |
mircea_popescu |
ie, what supermarkets do with those "supermarket brand" items ; or what everyone on the internet does with their "expertise" etc. |
| 09:23 |
asciilifeform |
dunno if this is a very useful term re 'open sores support' business |
| 09:23 |
mircea_popescu |
the famous "no pirate exposure" pirate-era scams were in fact pirate whitelabels, to allow people to pretend etc. |
| 09:24 |
asciilifeform |
it isn't as if gabriel_laddel has to buy the clim from shanghai and bring it over by boat |
| 09:24 |
mircea_popescu |
it's useful in that it puts in stark contrast the business-idiocy of the whole tower. |
| 09:24 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform presumably he has something of value acquired somehow. |
| 09:25 |
asciilifeform |
by, presumably (i cannot support or undermine his claim, other than perhaps to point out that his 'business' appears to leave him homeless) studying ancient code and making sense thereof |
| 09:25 |
mircea_popescu |
anyway, as a business strategy thing : throwing away 20k to see maybe a group of these "intelligent" retarded kids can get their shit together or not is one thing. oyu may do it or not, but if you do it it's because there's a definite cap on your exposure. even so - it'll be rare. |
| 09:25 |
mircea_popescu |
the notion of acquiring for free unbounded exposure to some group of online retards is mindboggling. |
| 09:26 |
asciilifeform |
where's the unbounded exposure ? |
| 09:26 |
mircea_popescu |
whenever any sort of association is not clearly defined. such as for instance in marriage. |
| 09:27 |
asciilifeform |
i meant in the software deal |
| 09:27 |
mircea_popescu |
if it's "ill give you 20 btc", then that's your cap. if it's "we'll do..." then you're lost. |
| 09:27 |
asciilifeform |
so, say rupture farms pays laddel to write'em a climtronic reactor control panel. |
| 09:27 |
mircea_popescu |
everywhere. do you understand words ? they have meanings. you do not get to alter that, change domains, anything. everywhere means absolutely and without exception everywhere. |
| 09:27 |
asciilifeform |
he writes, delivers. |
| 09:27 |
asciilifeform |
deal is done..? |
| 09:27 |
mircea_popescu |
THEY PAID. |
| 09:27 |
mircea_popescu |
"i'll give you 20 btc" |
| 09:27 |
asciilifeform |
aha? |
| 09:28 |
mircea_popescu |
right. |
| 09:28 |
asciilifeform |
where did he offer a 'marriage' in the 'we'll do... for all time' sense ? |
| 09:28 |
mircea_popescu |
again : it's either x or non x. did he offer x ? |
| 09:30 |
mircea_popescu |
i can't possibly comprehend why simple logic is so hard in practical application, but. unless he says "gimme 20 btc", what he says is "marry me". there are no possible, understand ~possible~ exceptions to this. |
| 09:30 |
asciilifeform |
i assumed that if i were to call him up with a 'i need an x before next tuesday' he will say 'pay y btc' |
| 09:30 |
asciilifeform |
rather than, say, 'it'll be 10btc/hr and i have nfi how long will take' |
| 09:30 |
mircea_popescu |
does not matter. |
| 09:31 |
mircea_popescu |
your assumptions are your worst fucking enemy. |
| 09:31 |
asciilifeform |
also who the hell puts a price on a ???. |
| 09:31 |
asciilifeform |
plumber does not advertise 'ANY problem fixed for 100$' |
| 09:31 |
mircea_popescu |
"if you're not the customer you're the product" "oh yeah, i understand that now" "no you don't" "o look, i hadn't understood it". either you pay, or else you're getting married. these are the options. stop confusing yourself. |
| 09:32 |
asciilifeform |
at any rate i have nfi what he charges. but the pitch looked like an ordinary plumbing ad. |
| 09:32 |
asciilifeform |
vs 'marriage' |
| 09:32 |
mircea_popescu |
the eternal male fantasy of the "free sex", "hook-up", whatever. this is how they use you to build the pyramids, you realise. |
| 09:33 |
asciilifeform |
well yes, chump bait |
| 09:33 |
asciilifeform |
but where is this re: subj ? |
| 09:34 |
mircea_popescu |
what, you think the subject is special ? |
| 09:34 |
asciilifeform |
not 'special' but - afaik - quite unconnected |
| 09:34 |
asciilifeform |
where did laddel offer chump bait ? |
| 09:34 |
asciilifeform |
(or, did he take another's ?) |
| 09:34 |
mircea_popescu |
dude... do you bring the same arguments re thermodynamics ? "yeah, heat so and so, but this is unconnected" |
| 09:35 |
mircea_popescu |
what the fuck is "unconnected" even mean, sovereign from physics laws ? |
| 09:35 |
asciilifeform |
well until one properly boltzmanns and connected heat and motion rigorously, they are 'unconnected' for any useful purpose. |
| 09:35 |
asciilifeform |
so connect plox |
| 09:36 |
Framedragger |
OT: i don't suspect anyone's got any suggestions for a wordpress theme to use (minimalist, gonna be ~3 pages in total, no comment box) for showcasing a newly published (non-electronic) book? |
| 09:36 |
mircea_popescu |
there is no "connect plox", and there is no "unconnected". they exist. that's it. |
| 09:36 |
mircea_popescu |
Framedragger for a small thing like that which will stay small you're best served by spitting out html. |
| 09:36 |
mircea_popescu |
wp theme is good spcifically if you want the same thing over many pages, comment box, post box etc. |
| 09:37 |
asciilifeform |
what i meant was, mircea_popescu's observations about service industries and chumps are entirely, afaik, uncontroversially true, but i dun see how they connect to poor old gabriel_laddel's thing |
| 09:37 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform THEY HAVE UNIVERSAL DOMAIN |
| 09:37 |
Framedragger |
mircea_popescu: you're probably right. problem is, site may need to be expanded later, and i hate re-doing work. but, you're probably right, in the end... |
| 09:37 |
mircea_popescu |
jesus q. christ de la mancha! |
| 09:37 |
mircea_popescu |
Framedragger then stop lying to yourself and draw the design spec correctly. |
| 09:37 |
Framedragger |
>.< "okay" |
| 09:38 |
mircea_popescu |
you lot have a lot in common with adolescent girls, you know this ? |
| 09:39 |
Framedragger |
well my last gf turned out to be sorta-adolescent, so i'm using osmosis as excuse |
| 09:39 |
mircea_popescu |
incidentally, you know that's how they get wet, right ? |
| 09:40 |
mircea_popescu |
cunt osmosis, from blood plasma. |
| 09:40 |
Framedragger |
ahh. thanks for the picture. guess you're right |
| 09:40 |
Framedragger |
pretty cool |
| 09:40 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3199109843356887@naggum.net.html << inevitably comes to mind, re chump bait etc |
| 09:49 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform in fairness : common lisp has managed to shackle an otherwise very intelligent, competent fellow to the position he scored so bad on his tests he got flunked. this is no small performance, seeing how universally reviled and properly bad solutions do not have the sort of problem. |
| 09:49 |
mircea_popescu |
the republican experience with lisp to date is very sorry indeed. |
| |
↖ |
| 09:49 |
asciilifeform |
and 1,000,001 before him. a sharp knife will do that. |
| 09:50 |
asciilifeform |
sorta how 'colt led cowboys to their graves' |
| 09:50 |
mircea_popescu |
a sharp knife will do that, yes. the cursed sword of japan also. |
| 09:51 |
asciilifeform |
i will also point out (and i have entire, lol, www, devoted to subj) that lisp on x86 pc is a sword without a hilt. |
| 09:51 |
asciilifeform |
just blade. you hold it with a towel. |
| 09:51 |
mircea_popescu |
pretty good image, this. |
| 09:51 |
mircea_popescu |
seems to fit experience exactly, also. |
| 09:53 |
asciilifeform |
well, to date experience consists of phf, who uses the buggy cmucl for some peculiar sentimental reason; and of trinque, whose shit appears to work ~100% of the time. |
| 09:53 |
mircea_popescu |
ah trinque was also on lisp huh. there is that. |
| |
↖ |
| 09:54 |
asciilifeform |
and ben_vulpes also had something, but it is not firing on the battlefield atm afaik. |
| 09:54 |
asciilifeform |
(he wrote a cl vtron and possibly other items) |
| 09:58 |
mircea_popescu |
"the Mist plateau is famous for its thick fogs and beautiful women"... wouldn't you expect this not to be the case ? |
| 09:58 |
asciilifeform |
i'm willing to bet that if phf's creation were sat down on a reasonably ~sane~ lisp system, e.g., sbcl, it would run stably. |
| 09:58 |
mircea_popescu |
well maybe he publishes it and you can find out. |
| 10:01 |
asciilifeform |
iirc he recently began to rewrite the whole thing. for much the same reason that i had to rewrite phuctor earlier this year. |
| 10:01 |
mircea_popescu |
anyway, back to the original issue, what exactly is supposed to protect gabriel's present infatuation from being applebaum'd in the arbitrary future ? |
| |
↖ |
| 10:01 |
mircea_popescu |
or what was that schmuck's name. |
| 10:02 |
mircea_popescu |
(pro tip, if your idea is "but mp, tor was actually built by nsa, this thing is just built by some random poor people" you lose at life. what the fuck, the socialists observe propriety lines now ? the whole world was made by their hunchback of a god and gave to them as a gift dontchaknow.) |
| 10:03 |
asciilifeform |
this is a mega-observation, and summarizes why i have 0 interest in involvement in non-tmsr 'open sores' ever again. |
| 10:04 |
asciilifeform |
y'know how rms et al used to say 'publishing without gnu is same as working for microshit for free' ? |
| 10:04 |
asciilifeform |
well, same idea. |
| |
~ 29 minutes ~ |
| 10:33 |
danielpbarron |
mircea_popescu, girl is sister of guy who i play poker with |
| 10:35 |
danielpbarron |
gabriel should make his case to get listed on mpex |
| 10:37 |
asciilifeform |
i'd recommend to him to first solve his house and food problems. |
| 10:37 |
asciilifeform |
would you pay a man to build reactor if his toilet ~never works ? |
| 10:40 |
thestringpuller |
depends on if he's a nuclear physicist pretending to be a plumber or vice versa. |
| 10:40 |
thestringpuller |
nuclear engineer* |
| 10:40 |
asciilifeform |
does not depend. |
| 10:40 |
asciilifeform |
is invariant. |
| 10:41 |
thestringpuller |
It was a joke :P |
| 10:41 |
thestringpuller |
(not a good one) |
| 10:47 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform i see it pretty much the same way. |
| 10:48 |
mircea_popescu |
i have just about 0 interest in working for any of the various cans of usg soup. pre tmsr, i actually didn't work much if at all, and in retrospect i understand it's for this exact reason. |
| 10:49 |
asciilifeform |
same reason, really, why slave labourer in birkenau would fuck off at the conveyor whenever he could. |
| 10:53 |
mircea_popescu |
i dun think it ever took me more than a few days to pay for a month of costa rica or whatever, and this if i was particularly persuaded by the "don't eat from capitals" balabusta angle that month. |
| 10:54 |
mircea_popescu |
in contrast, for the past SIX FUCKING YEARS i've been pulling 100 hour weeks like nobody's business. |
| 10:55 |
mircea_popescu |
and if we count those hours at the 100k estimate, tmsr did more for increasing worldwide productivity than feminism. |
| 10:55 |
asciilifeform |
'motivation from fear is a firecracker, from interest - a nuke' as the americans used to say |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ |
| 10:55 |
mircea_popescu |
aha |
| 10:56 |
mircea_popescu |
what the fuck am i going to be afraid of. |
| 10:57 |
mircea_popescu |
that's the other problem there. motivation of random retard - from fear, firecracker, from interest, nuke. when you go above 95 on the iq scale, what the everloving fuck are you going to put in your firecracker even. |
| 10:57 |
asciilifeform |
saying originally referred to the comparatively laughable output of wage slaves, vs folk who do ~same thing out of actual interest |
| 10:57 |
mircea_popescu |
there's two married exponentials at work here, and the 2nd's even more abrupt. |
| 10:59 |
asciilifeform |
incidentally the traditional interpretation -- 'wage slave will exam-optimize and do the bare minimal job' is imho woefully incomplete: |
| 10:59 |
mircea_popescu |
danielpbarron does sister of friend want to see buenos aires ? |
| 10:59 |
asciilifeform |
the main problem with him is that he is not free to decide that the ~job per se~ is braindamaged |
| 10:59 |
asciilifeform |
and to not do it at all. |
| 10:59 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform i wouldn't trust his decision. that's the point : under 110 or so, you are well advised to not even think about making these sorts of calls. |
| 11:00 |
mircea_popescu |
this of course comes with a corresponding responsibility of smart people to not be fucking retards, but hey. |
| 11:01 |
asciilifeform |
wage worker, whether idiot or grandmaster, is still stuck 'only following orders.' |
| 11:01 |
mircea_popescu |
wage worker grandmaster ? what's this, like engineering ? |
| 11:02 |
asciilifeform |
yeah yeah on mircea_popescu's planet they dun have this, all smart folks sit in recliners and get hand-fed grapes by harembots while idiots labour |
| 11:02 |
mircea_popescu |
look, it's not my fault that a) they misapplied the model and b) you bought into it. |
| 11:03 |
mircea_popescu |
but this "wage working engineer" makes 0 sense. |
| 11:03 |
mircea_popescu |
it only exists because of jwz training of smart kids, making them want to "cleave" brains and responsibility. |
| 11:05 |
asciilifeform |
... who misapplied which model ? |
| 11:08 |
mircea_popescu |
the whole capitalism / industrialism model works on the following principle : idiots (by which we mean virtually everyone) are overwhelmed by the complexity of reality, and so resort to societal heuristics. such as you know, "religion", or else "all girls" agreeing that sucking cock is gross in 9th grade and that only farmhands and mongoloids wouldn't do it in 12th grade. these heuristics are weak, and an intelligent guy can |
| 11:08 |
mircea_popescu |
find a much better blueprint in circumscribed circumstances than the heuristic would provide (the circumstance has to always be limited because otherwise complexity explosion - which yields the principal problem of capitalism, ie disintergration (as the term of art)). |
| 11:09 |
mircea_popescu |
now then. giving intelligent people a tool to break idiots from the social fold (ie, money) results in all sorts of minimums off the wealth-curve (very much like the schroedinger equation, this) being cut off, resulting in more money, resulting in more ships, resulting in conquering china. |
| 11:09 |
mircea_popescu |
this is the whole premise of capitalism : dear retard, don;'t listen to what the priest says to do ; but listen to what the rich guy says to do. |
| 11:10 |
mircea_popescu |
and hence all the "morals" debate of 1600s and 1700s. |
| 11:11 |
mircea_popescu |
this model is built on some axioms. one of which is "dumb people". not smart people. the moment you turn around and try to apply it to engineers you plainly demonstrate you have absolutely no connection to the people who come up with this, but merely cargo cultist, following motions. |
| 11:11 |
asciilifeform |
the setting has 0 connection to the people who came up with it also. |
| 11:11 |
asciilifeform |
i.e. modern usd is not the pound sterling of 1700. |
| 11:11 |
thestringpuller |
$s dma bad |
| 11:11 |
a111 |
2 results for "dma bad", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=dma%20bad |
| 11:12 |
asciilifeform |
and modern 'rich people' are, largely, dressed-up counterfeiters and their chums. |
| 11:12 |
mircea_popescu |
which is why the guy gives the girl money in http://trilema.com/2014/the-romanian-language-for-other-people/ but he doesn't pay cristiana in http://trilema.com/2016/il-magnifico-cornuto/ |
| 11:12 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform sure. |
| 11:14 |
asciilifeform |
so why does it surprise mircea_popescu if folks won't follow a heuristic that was devised in a world which no longer exists ..? |
| 11:14 |
mircea_popescu |
i dunno dude, does ancient greece still exist ? |
| 11:14 |
mircea_popescu |
seems gcd worked just fine for us. |
| 11:15 |
asciilifeform |
gcd still works because - fortunately - nobody cancelled, yet, the integers. |
| 11:15 |
mircea_popescu |
nobody cancelled the wealth curve either, nor the ships and conquer china. |
| 11:15 |
mircea_popescu |
these aren't cancellable. |
| 11:15 |
asciilifeform |
they are cancellable in the same way surface deposits of copper were cancelled. |
| 11:15 |
mircea_popescu |
nope. |
| 11:16 |
mircea_popescu |
they are not cancellable at all ; not even in the same way plants are cancellable. |
| 11:17 |
asciilifeform |
conquest in the old 'rape'n'pillage' sense may be good clean fun, but no longer economically +ev. |
| 11:17 |
mircea_popescu |
conquer china wasn't that. |
| 11:18 |
asciilifeform |
which, then |
| 11:18 |
asciilifeform |
conquest in the 'now they'll work all day for half a bowl of rice and an opium cig' sense ? |
| 11:19 |
mircea_popescu |
no, more in the sense of "now they'll either wear suits or come up with complicated arguments as to why they aren't, because either way they very deeply care". |
| 11:20 |
mircea_popescu |
let's read together from http://trilema.com/2016/mochila-o-muerte/ : "many of the most beautiful Jewesses adults and adolescents, some already naked and others in various states of undress came out of the ghetto ~on their own volition~ and ~~~offered themselves~~~." |
| 11:20 |
mircea_popescu |
history of china throughout the 1900s is exactly this : came out of ghetto, of own volition, and offered self. |
| 11:21 |
mircea_popescu |
the experience is, of course, massively beneficial. moreover, it's also the only way. |
| 11:22 |
asciilifeform |
i may be thick, but i do not see how this can be applied by engineer. |
| 11:22 |
mircea_popescu |
well, there's also no rush. |
| 11:23 |
asciilifeform |
engineer should be also a capitalist, ought to build ships for his own use instead of some jew's ? |
| 11:23 |
asciilifeform |
easier said, than done |
| 11:23 |
asciilifeform |
(in fact, i know of no case where it was done as pictured above. e.g., westinghouse, stopped being engineer quite certainly before becoming successful capitalist.) |
| 11:24 |
mircea_popescu |
"i am an engineer" "good for you" "but i'm poor" "then you aren't an engineer ?" "no, i am, it's just... the environment i come from doesn't allow for engineers. this world is so unfair!" "so then... by coming from an environment that doesn't allow for an engineer, you...aren't one ?" "NO SEE, ENVIOUS RAGE! OTHER PEOPLE ARE IN HEAVEN AND I AM IN HELL!!" |
| |
↖ |
| 11:24 |
asciilifeform |
'Немного обидно, что строят одни, А в море уходят другие.' (tm) (r) re: ship. |
| 11:24 |
mircea_popescu |
tell you what, contrary to what russian speakers thought, soviet union contained no engineers, no teachers, naught else. just whores. |
| 11:25 |
mircea_popescu |
some whores who knew they were whores, and some whores who wasted their life pretending they aren't whores. |
| 11:26 |
asciilifeform |
dunno that industrial 'civilization' contains much else besides whores and their patrons. |
| 11:26 |
mircea_popescu |
"modern democracy" shall we call it likely doesn't. |
| 11:27 |
asciilifeform |
'i'm engineer' 'but you're poor, fuck off' 'i'ma doctor' 'you're poor, piss off' 'i'ma steel magnate' 'lockheed paid you in IOUs, buzz off' 'i'ma ...' |
| 11:28 |
mircea_popescu |
heh. wait till you get into the "i'm an webentrepreneurdesignmarketing" like pim kim what's her face. |
| 11:28 |
asciilifeform |
the 'real deals' live, largely, in imagination, now. |
| 11:28 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform not so. etherape. |
| 11:28 |
mircea_popescu |
the real deals walk the same information superhighway as everyone else. |
| 11:28 |
asciilifeform |
'i'ma pirate.' 'finally, real pro' |
| 11:29 |
mircea_popescu |
"oh but if i had a better car then definitely gf", sayz elliot. and i'm sure he's right hurr. |
| 11:30 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform as ridiculous as it sounds, it's true. the world's upside down, i will not trust an "honest man" because, simply put, http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:256/to:256#256 |
| 11:30 |
mircea_popescu |
lawbreaker (unrepentant) at least provides personal history to back up his independence claim. |
| 11:32 |
asciilifeform |
this is a consistent algo, and has history, but also obvious limitations. |
| 11:32 |
mircea_popescu |
wasn't proposing it as an algo, mere eg. |
| 11:32 |
mircea_popescu |
trust algos are a suspect field. |
| 11:32 |
asciilifeform |
(e.g., actual pirates, had considerable problem recruiting and keeping medic. to the point that it became sop to capture one and let him go immediately when replacement is found.) |
| 11:33 |
mircea_popescu |
which is pretty much how medicine entirely works now. |
| 11:33 |
asciilifeform |
and when something cannot be plundered, one is stuck with what can be produced on a pirate ship. |
| 11:33 |
mircea_popescu |
nah, they had ports throughout - the indian ocean for the portuguese ; the atlantic for the english. |
| 11:33 |
asciilifeform |
while the fun lasted - yes. |
| 11:34 |
mircea_popescu |
and honestly, if i lived in 1700 i'd have lived in pirate port |
| 11:34 |
mod6 |
nice |
| 11:34 |
mircea_popescu |
it lasted more than london lasted, on average. |
| 11:34 |
asciilifeform |
who wouldn't want to live in pirate port, lol |
| 11:34 |
mircea_popescu |
many sorts of people. |
| 11:34 |
mod6 |
lot of trades |
| 11:34 |
asciilifeform |
well for that matter i have trouble picturing a mircea_popescu circa 1700 anywhere other than on proper pirate ~ship~ |
| 11:35 |
mircea_popescu |
why ? i'm not that great a fan of the sea. |
| 11:35 |
asciilifeform |
hm. port, then. |
| 11:35 |
mircea_popescu |
see ? :p |
| 11:37 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-30#1531916 << to briefly revisit subj, i would happily buy a ticket to visit the planet where there are actual engineers, doctors, etc. |
| 11:37 |
a111 |
Logged on 2016-08-30 15:24 mircea_popescu: "i am an engineer" "good for you" "but i'm poor" "then you aren't an engineer ?" "no, i am, it's just... the environment i come from doesn't allow for engineers. this world is so unfair!" "so then... by coming from an environment that doesn't allow for an engineer, you...aren't one ?" "NO SEE, ENVIOUS RAGE! OTHER PEOPLE ARE IN HEAVEN AND I AM IN HELL!!" |
| 11:37 |
asciilifeform |
if only to visit. |
| 11:37 |
asciilifeform |
and at least see what it looks like. |
| 11:38 |
mircea_popescu |
myeah. |
| 11:38 |
mod6 |
the dr i went to see the other day had to be 350 lbs. |
| 11:38 |
mod6 |
was, M.D. |
| 11:39 |
mircea_popescu |
nuts. |
| 11:39 |
mod6 |
she took this blood sample from a "spider bite" of some sort on my hip, dropped it on the floor. |
| 11:39 |
mod6 |
needless to say, I had to fetch it for her. |
| 11:39 |
asciilifeform |
mod6: since when does doctor personally bleed anybody in usa |
| 11:39 |
asciilifeform |
usually a flunkie does this |
| 11:39 |
mod6 |
anyway, she seemed at least smart enough to take the sample and perscibe some antibiotics. |
| 11:39 |
mod6 |
but hard to take such a person srsly. |
| 11:40 |
* |
thestringpuller waits for BingoBoingo commentary |
| 11:40 |
mod6 |
asciilifeform: i dunno. she gingerly tried to bleed me. |
| 11:40 |
mod6 |
i was like, "don't be afraid to squeeze that thing hard." |
| 11:40 |
mod6 |
so, then she gave me 20% more. |
| 11:40 |
mod6 |
im like wtf. |
| 11:40 |
mod6 |
SQUEEZE THAT THING LADY |
| 11:42 |
mircea_popescu |
lol mod6 been in teh marines |
| 11:42 |
mod6 |
lol, naw. just standard lumberjack/hockey player. |
| 11:42 |
mircea_popescu |
"phlebotomist kit is this here submarine hatch. problem ?" |
| 11:42 |
mod6 |
i sure as hell didn't wanna have to go back there though for lack of a "good sample". |
| 11:44 |
asciilifeform |
mircea_popescu: when i toured a ww2 submarine museum-ship, i learned that on board there were steel plates, with matching holes, to bolt to the hatchways when doing a planned dive, in case the hatches leak. somehow i find it hard to picture modern american sailors doing any such thing. osha would have a fit. |
| 11:46 |
mircea_popescu |
iirc they were pretty big on the whole compartimentalization thing. |
| 11:46 |
asciilifeform |
the main hatchways. |
| 11:47 |
mircea_popescu |
it's not a thoroughly unreasonable way to go about it, "what if we spring a leak ?" |
| 11:47 |
asciilifeform |
(compartments, naturally, existed, as they still do on any war ship) |
| 11:47 |
mircea_popescu |
"we close the door on it." "AA would sink again!" |
| 11:47 |
asciilifeform |
fire is a greater fear than leak, today just as in 1700. |
| 11:48 |
mircea_popescu |
yea |
| 11:49 |
asciilifeform |
there were instructions for various scenarios of fire, perma-affixed to the walls, consoles, etc. in various spots around the ship. |
| 11:49 |
asciilifeform |
and they all ended with 'if all other hope is lost, close compartment' |
| 11:50 |
mircea_popescu |
aha |
| 11:50 |
mircea_popescu |
also because oxygen has to be imported, so to speak, it's very efficient firefighting. how long can it burn ? well, while air lasts. |
| 11:52 |
asciilifeform |
the flip side is that you have literally seconds to make the decision re what do do about the fire. |
| 11:52 |
asciilifeform |
*to |
| 11:52 |
asciilifeform |
while air lasts, aha. |
| |
~ 15 minutes ~ |
| 12:08 |
danielpbarron |
mircea_popescu, i'll ask her |
| |
~ 21 minutes ~ |
| 12:29 |
mircea_popescu |
ah, man, that cold slow fire. |
| 12:32 |
trinque |
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-30#1531833 << there are two orthogonal items here. one is the sanity of the language, which begets the brevity Framedragger observed in my code. the second is whether the implementation of that language has been *used* widely enough to expose it to the great filter. |
| 12:32 |
a111 |
Logged on 2016-08-30 13:53 mircea_popescu: ah trinque was also on lisp huh. there is that. |
| 12:32 |
trinque |
it is apparent to me that sbcl has. |
| 12:33 |
trinque |
but having said that, LAMP should not be idly tossed aside. it has seen the world. |
| |
~ 18 minutes ~ |
| 12:51 |
trinque |
$up g_l |
| 12:51 |
deedbot |
g_l voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 12:52 |
g_l |
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-30#1531840 < CLIM fits-in-head, and the final showstopping error (X11 related crap) has been reduced to a simple test case, and is in the process of being solved. |
| 12:52 |
a111 |
Logged on 2016-08-30 14:01 mircea_popescu: anyway, back to the original issue, what exactly is supposed to protect gabriel's present infatuation from being applebaum'd in the arbitrary future ? |
| 12:53 |
asciilifeform |
g_l: really now, fits in head, incl. the font engine crap etc. ? |
| 12:53 |
asciilifeform |
or do we now arbitrarily get to cut a problem down to where all of the actual moving parts are somehow 'elsewhere' ? |
| 12:55 |
g_l |
If you don't want the font engine crap, make a new font engine. This is very much doable by a single man. |
| 12:55 |
asciilifeform |
not taking issue with this claim. |
| 12:55 |
asciilifeform |
but 'fits in head, except for this massive part that presently fits in no head' is not same as 'fits in head' |
| 12:56 |
asciilifeform |
more to the point, i would like to learn what it is that g_l did to clim, and why it had to be done |
| 12:57 |
asciilifeform |
in rough terms |
| 12:57 |
asciilifeform |
because i happen to know that clim was a thing, and worked, so to speak, before. |
| 12:58 |
asciilifeform |
and, in so far as i can see, all of the things that set me to barf in the past - are still there. |
| 12:58 |
asciilifeform |
soooo what is it that changed ? tabs are now spaces ? vice-versa ? what. |
| 12:59 |
g_l |
asciilifeform: I bitched about the two showstopping errors and gas2serra stepped in and solved the first, and is in the process of solving the second. |
| 12:59 |
asciilifeform |
showstopping how ? i built and ran a stock clim in 2007. |
| 12:59 |
g_l |
You can trigger an error that kills the connection to the X server, forcing you to restart the whole lisp image. |
| 13:00 |
asciilifeform |
trigger how ? |
| 13:00 |
g_l |
The other was that text from one application would show up in another when running many applications. |
| 13:00 |
g_l |
asciilifeform: https://github.com/robert-strandh/McCLIM/issues/55 |
| 13:00 |
g_l |
asciilifeform: the second to last post |
| 13:01 |
g_l |
The "text ghosting" issue has been fixed. We (finally) have a quality test case for the final error. |
| 13:02 |
g_l |
When fixed one can program entirely in CLIM. I've fixed up the debugger to eval in frame, added a 'reflective apropos' |
| 13:02 |
g_l |
(the navigator) |
| 13:02 |
asciilifeform |
sooo, can i, say, traverse from x,y coordinate on the screen, to the entire pyramid of objects which produced the pixel at x,y ? |
| 13:02 |
asciilifeform |
without knowing anything about the output in advance |
| 13:03 |
g_l |
Traverse how? |
| 13:03 |
g_l |
Via an output-record (object that has been presented)? |
| 13:03 |
g_l |
sure |
| 13:03 |
asciilifeform |
via x,y |
| 13:03 |
asciilifeform |
integers. |
| 13:04 |
g_l |
yes, there is MAP-OVER-OUTPUT-RECORDS-OVERLAPPING-REGION or some such |
| 13:04 |
g_l |
Though I have not used it. |
| 13:04 |
asciilifeform |
so first i'd get a raw pixel, then - a thing defining a spline inside the glyph, then a glyph, then a character (in the lisp sense), then the routine which produced it.. |
| 13:05 |
g_l |
Not yet. |
| 13:08 |
asciilifeform |
sooooo, who recalls the 'ring signatures' thing? (e.g., http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-05#1422836 ) |
| |
↖ |
| 13:08 |
a111 |
Logged on 2016-03-05 19:28 fluffypony: stealth addresses provide unlinkability, ring signatures provide untraceability |
| 13:09 |
asciilifeform |
https://archive.is/GtLj7 << turns out that fluffypony has been a busy, busy honeybee since leaving us. |
| 13:10 |
asciilifeform |
working hard to set up usg honeypot with dear old roger ver. |
| 13:13 |
Framedragger |
why the fuck is everything a honeypot to you. the technology is interesting for what it's worth. they're leveraging i2p which is interesting if not unquestionable. iirc fluffypony is the project lead list |
| 13:13 |
asciilifeform |
read linked thread. |
| 13:13 |
Framedragger |
in the * |
| 13:14 |
asciilifeform |
and if that doesn't do the trick, consider when object is covered in a pound of flies, does it remain an open question whether it is good to eat ? |
| 13:14 |
asciilifeform |
do you know of any constructive, salvageable item covered in roger vers ? |
| 13:15 |
Framedragger |
linux? |
| 13:15 |
Framedragger |
lol "bitcoin jesus". yea well. people flock, it's what they do |
| 13:15 |
asciilifeform |
they aren't flocking to trb, or mpex, etc. |
| 13:15 |
asciilifeform |
flies - to shit. |
| 13:15 |
Framedragger |
not saying it's a very good signal |
| 13:15 |
davout |
asciilifeform: if you see a lump of steel covered in flies, you brush the flies off and go use that steel for whatever it is you need steel for, no? |
| 13:16 |
asciilifeform |
davout: i took an interest in fluffypony's thing a while back, and did not especially like what i found. |
| 13:17 |
asciilifeform |
see linked thread. |
| 13:17 |
davout |
yeah sure, but that's kind of different from saying 'sucks because roger ver'. ver probably used the bitcoin client before it was set in stone for trb |
| 13:17 |
davout |
the linked article? |
| 13:18 |
asciilifeform |
linked thread, at the head of this one. |
| 13:18 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-30#1532029 << |
| 13:18 |
a111 |
Logged on 2016-08-30 17:08 asciilifeform: sooooo, who recalls the 'ring signatures' thing? (e.g., http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-05#1422836 ) |
| 13:18 |
davout |
danke schön |
| 13:18 |
Framedragger |
asciilifeform: trb and mpex don't make themselves easy to be used by everyone. which YES is a great thing. but it's not because an angelic light shines upon them, repelling all evil. |
| 13:19 |
Framedragger |
it's a design decision - a laudible one, sure |
| 13:19 |
Framedragger |
bitcoin is used by bitcoin jesus, too |
| 13:19 |
asciilifeform |
the funniest thing is that it is not! |
| 13:19 |
asciilifeform |
and hasn't been since, well, 2012 or so. |
| 13:19 |
asciilifeform |
prb is not bitcoin. |
| 13:20 |
Framedragger |
right, right. |
| 13:20 |
Framedragger |
afk for a bit |
| 13:21 |
asciilifeform |
there is no magic light. |
| 13:21 |
asciilifeform |
evil is repelled by determined hands, of actual people, pouring boiling oil every single motherfucking time on rogervers, gavins, AND the horses they ride in on. |
| 13:22 |
asciilifeform |
AND, when practical, on the fleas on the horses. |
| 13:22 |
asciilifeform |
and, when possible, on the baccilae on the fleas. etc. |
| 13:23 |
BingoBoingo |
<Framedragger> OT: i don't suspect anyone's got any suggestions for a wordpress theme to use (minimalist, gonna be ~3 pages in total, no comment box) for showcasing a newly published (non-electronic) book? << Toolbox! |
| 13:23 |
davout |
i remember already reading this monero thread actually |
| 13:26 |
BingoBoingo |
<Framedragger> OT: i don't suspect anyone's got any suggestions for a wordpress theme to use (minimalist, gonna be ~3 pages in total, no comment box) for showcasing a newly published (non-electronic) book? << Toolbox. Just delete the comment boxes and other shit. Small theme so easy to fidn everything you want/need to delete. |
| 13:28 |
BingoBoingo |
<thestringpuller> depends on if he's a nuclear physicist pretending to be a plumber or vice versa. << More plumbers lay hand on reactor parts than physicists |
| 13:28 |
BingoBoingo |
Or engineers |
| 13:29 |
asciilifeform |
davout: 'ring signatures' are not the promised 'invisibility cloak', but more of a smoke grenade. |
| |
↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ ↖ |
| 13:29 |
asciilifeform |
quite analogous, in fact. obstructs friendly ('this tx is mine, i paid you, damnit') as well as enemy visibility. |
| 13:30 |
davout |
the problem i have with monero is the bloat and uncapped block size, not really the crypto itself |
| 13:30 |
asciilifeform |
and only for so long as the smoke hangs in the air (when there is in fact a set of keys-that-could-have-signed) |
| 13:30 |
asciilifeform |
davout: the crud is incidental to the shitcoin |
| 13:30 |
asciilifeform |
i was discussing whether there is any idea worth stealing in monero. |
| 13:30 |
asciilifeform |
and, just as 6 mo. ago, i say that there is not. |
| 13:33 |
BingoBoingo |
<asciilifeform> wage worker, whether idiot or grandmaster, is still stuck 'only following orders.' << /me suspects alf is far removed from actual reality of wage cattle herding on the ground. |
| 13:34 |
asciilifeform |
BingoBoingo: fwiw, i've never been anything other than wage cattle |
| 13:34 |
asciilifeform |
now, perhaps wage bull, rather than chicken, but still livestock. |
| 13:35 |
asciilifeform |
ultimately all of the animals on a farm exist for same reason. |
| 13:37 |
asciilifeform |
$up g_l |
| 13:37 |
deedbot |
g_l voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 13:38 |
g_l |
If anyone wants to do something easy and useful: drop into #clim and or #lisp and pester beach (robert strandh) to add bounties for implementing the remaining 38 CLIM forms and solving the last showstopping error. |
| 13:38 |
asciilifeform |
g_l: why would randos 'pestering' move the thing in any direction ? |
| 13:39 |
g_l |
he operates on an idiot "social consensus" algo |
| 13:39 |
asciilifeform |
and any of the people here would want to get involved with this crock of shit WHY..? |
| 13:39 |
g_l |
well, I got a (major) donor to pester him and suddenly all the talk of "backends" disappeared. |
| 13:40 |
asciilifeform |
g_l: understand that your effort here is having quite the opposite of the intended effect. |
| 13:40 |
g_l |
If you're not interested in CLIM, don't bother. I'm not here to convince you of its utility. |
| 13:40 |
asciilifeform |
well i'd be potentially interested in a sane clim made by sane folk |
| 13:41 |
g_l |
I don't know how you expect to get there without going through a complete CLX backend first. |
| 13:41 |
asciilifeform |
well, let's say g_l (who i give benefit of doubt, he seems to have a head on his shoulders etc) writes one. |
| 13:41 |
asciilifeform |
then - i will certainly try it, and say 'thank you' |
| 13:42 |
g_l |
yofi |
| 13:42 |
g_l |
for the rest of you lispers who have used and like CLIM, |
| 13:42 |
asciilifeform |
but when g_l writes in that 'let's all bus in voters to the polls in shitsackistan' - i must confess, my ears sadly fall down. |
| 13:43 |
g_l |
my bitching already took them (people working on CLIM, nyef, jackdaniel, gas2serra, etc) from "clim on the web, on the playstation, ncurses, gtk!" to "alrighty, let's finish CLX first", and they just need a little bit more of a push. Beach in particular, as he controls the funds |
| 13:43 |
asciilifeform |
'Bill, deliver these good and fervant folk to the polls. And there will be a handsome price for each vote that goes Tammany's way.' -- http://trilema.com/2016/gangs-of-new-york/#selection-75.2-75.131 |
| 13:43 |
BingoBoingo |
<mod6> but hard to take such a person srsly. << Because not a person but a hog. |
| 13:43 |
BingoBoingo |
Oh, hamplanets thinks it can medicine! |
| 13:43 |
thestringpuller |
^- and there it is |
| 13:43 |
thestringpuller |
:D |
| 13:43 |
asciilifeform |
'- You're a great one for the fighting Bill, I know, but you can't fight forever. - I can go down doing it. - And you will. - What did you say? - I said, you're turning you back on the future. - Not our future.' |
| 13:43 |
BingoBoingo |
Doctor heal thyself motherfucker! |
| 13:44 |
* |
g_l off to work.. |
| 13:44 |
asciilifeform |
g_l: who is funding the thing ? |
| 13:44 |
asciilifeform |
and why ? |
| 13:44 |
asciilifeform |
eh. |
| 13:46 |
asciilifeform |
$up g_l |
| 13:46 |
deedbot |
g_l voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 13:46 |
g_l |
https://salt.bountysource.com/teams/mcclim |
| 13:46 |
g_l |
For the record: I totally underestimated the amount of support there was out there for a 100% CL GUI. |
| 13:50 |
asciilifeform |
so why is that campaign run by some bozo, and not g_l ? |
| 13:50 |
asciilifeform |
and what's to stop g_l from opening own |
| 13:50 |
g_l |
because I'm homeless and have 3 closed bank accounts, money locked in paypal etc etc etc etc |
| 13:51 |
BingoBoingo |
<asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: fwiw, i've never been anything other than wage cattle << Then yeah. You've been the wrong kind. |
| 13:51 |
g_l |
They did it all on their own btw. I thought crowdfunding was a terrible idea. |
| 13:51 |
thestringpuller |
g_l: Oh yea. If you are in southeast region I can prob fix the homeless problem temporarily. |
| 13:51 |
thestringpuller |
no use in roaming the streets |
| 13:52 |
g_l |
thestringpuller: being "homeless" in palo alto / atherton / sf / los altos / san jose is not the same thing as in the rest of the country. Am OK, just awful internet and other nonsense. |
| 13:53 |
BingoBoingo |
>b 1 |
| 13:56 |
g_l |
thestringpuller: thank you though. Much appreciated. |
| 13:57 |
asciilifeform |
BingoBoingo: http://cbs12.com/news/local/vladimir-putin-arrested-at-publix << for you. |
| 13:57 |
BingoBoingo |
lol |
| |
~ 27 minutes ~ |
| 14:24 |
BingoBoingo |
$up umoguny |
| 14:24 |
deedbot |
umoguny voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 14:30 |
deedbot |
http://qntra.net/2016/08/us-third-party-candidates-ad-buy-spotted-in-the-wild/ << Qntra - US Third Party Candidate's Ad Buy Spotted In The Wild |
| 14:36 |
BingoBoingo |
^ In bullish for Trump lulz |
| |
~ 40 minutes ~ |
| 15:16 |
Framedragger |
BingoBoingo: ah! thanks for the suggestion. btw did you have any particular grievances with the supposed heir of Toolbox, _s? |
| 15:16 |
Framedragger |
$s _s |
| 15:16 |
a111 |
3 results for "_s", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=_s |
| 15:17 |
BingoBoingo |
I know nothing of it |
| 15:18 |
Framedragger |
https://github.com/Automattic/_s/ - allegedly it's da modern super minimalist theme with minimal css that one is supposed to hack on. toolbox (marked as 'retired', which doesn't really mean that) on themes.wordpress.org links to _s |
| 15:20 |
BingoBoingo |
Well, toolbox was retired because it was the final word on WP themes and they needed makework? What more is there to say on the subject? |
| 15:22 |
Framedragger |
very possibly that's the reason, no disagreement here. it fucking does the job, and has no shitty m0dern gimmicks. |
| 15:36 |
BingoBoingo |
http://www.jameslafond.com/article.php?id=869 |
| 15:44 |
asciilifeform |
BingoBoingo: i think i even mentioned it here, this b00k |
| 15:44 |
asciilifeform |
$s nihil |
| 15:44 |
a111 |
3 results for "nihil", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=nihil |
| 15:44 |
BingoBoingo |
Oh |
| 15:44 |
asciilifeform |
or hm. |
| 15:44 |
asciilifeform |
not in the l0gz... |
| |
~ 19 minutes ~ |
| 16:04 |
BingoBoingo |
;;bc,stats |
| 16:04 |
gribble |
Current Blocks: 427571 | Current Difficulty: 2.2075590833037228E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 429407 | Next Difficulty In: 1836 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 18 hours, and 0 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None |
| 16:04 |
deedbot |
http://qntra.net/2016/08/update-on-some-forking-losers/ << Qntra - Update On Some Forking Losers |
| 16:04 |
BingoBoingo |
;;ticker --market all |
| 16:04 |
gribble |
Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 575.0, vol: 4296.35174874 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 578.88, vol: 7062.93152 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 577.63, vol: 2813.19031732 | GDAX BTCUSD last: 575.05, vol: 4033.43006235 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 577.182232, vol: 72987.02760000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 575.97, vol: 839.15351553 | Gemini BTCUSD last: 576.68, vol: 1210.60809853 | OKCoin BTCUSD last: 578.3536, vol: (1 more message) |
| 16:04 |
BingoBoingo |
;;more |
| 16:04 |
gribble |
448323.883 | Volume-weighted last average: 578.140197372 |
| 16:16 |
mircea_popescu |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:326/to:326#326 < check out the � lol |
| 16:25 |
Framedragger |
damn. www itself is utf-8 proper, but the source of the log (znc) reports that long hyphen as byte 0x96, for whatever reason. this then gets rendered as �. i think i won't dig into znc's mysteries as i'll be planning to move to a different log format anyway (everything to be stored in db for proper search, etc.) |
| 16:25 |
mircea_popescu |
aite. |
| 16:25 |
Framedragger |
– – – |
| 16:26 |
Framedragger |
(..this one's fine) |
| 16:26 |
mircea_popescu |
lemme fish out the original artefact |
| 16:27 |
Framedragger |
oyeah that'd be helpful. but no hurries. |
| 16:27 |
mircea_popescu |
|
| 16:27 |
Framedragger |
btcbase and log.b-a go back to the same date (26th april 2013) |
| 16:28 |
Framedragger |
meaning, i won't be doing anything with the full logs (assuming that's what you mean by the artefact) today |
| 16:28 |
mircea_popescu |
ha-HA! |
| 16:28 |
mircea_popescu |
no, this is what i meant by artefact : |
| 16:28 |
Framedragger |
(btw btcbase's irc line IDs do start with 1, so i guess they are sorta deterministic) |
| 16:28 |
Framedragger |
ah. |
| 16:28 |
mircea_popescu |
|
| 16:28 |
mircea_popescu |
ahahaha. |
| 16:29 |
Framedragger |
oh shit |
| 16:29 |
mircea_popescu |
v |
| 16:29 |
Framedragger |
what |
| 16:29 |
mircea_popescu |
Framedragger mircea_popescu |
| 16:29 |
Framedragger |
? |
| 16:29 |
mircea_popescu |
this is the weirdest shit. so all these display as dashes on my system : both yours, and mine. |
| 16:29 |
mircea_popescu |
yours displays as dash in your log, mine does not. |
| 16:30 |
mircea_popescu |
if i copy/paste yours into the log, it ALSO does not. |
| 16:30 |
asciilifeform |
gotta love uniturds. |
| 16:30 |
mod6 |
woa |
| 16:31 |
Framedragger |
no wait. wait wait. btcbase's log displays them as dashes. my irc client displays them as questionmarks. that original dash - i'd assumed it was a dash from btcbase's log, i now surmise. i get questionmark in irc |
| 16:32 |
mircea_popescu |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:576/to:576#576 << no, you get a dash |
| 16:32 |
Framedragger |
no i copy pasted that from btcbase log, the dumb fella that i am |
| 16:32 |
mircea_popescu |
and i copy/pasted it in turn. |
| 16:32 |
Framedragger |
"(9:29:01 PM) mircea_popescu: ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? ? v" |
| 16:32 |
Framedragger |
from irc log |
| 16:32 |
Framedragger |
..fuck. |
| 16:32 |
mircea_popescu |
the first is copied from my own quote, the second from your own quote. |
| 16:33 |
Framedragger |
...i see. |
| 16:33 |
mircea_popescu |
this is some wtf level voodoo here. i have nfi why they called it utf |
| 16:33 |
mircea_popescu |
should have called it wtf. or i guess �tf |
| 16:33 |
Framedragger |
does, uh, your irc client add a spurious byte just for kicks, or wtf. hm. i also know there are multiple long hyphens / shorter dashes in unicode, maybe some of them don't get recognized by these shit systems |
| 16:34 |
asciilifeform |
бНОПНЯ ВХРЮК? (tm) (r) |
| |
↖ |
| 16:34 |
mircea_popescu |
quite |
| 16:34 |
asciilifeform |
('ВХРЮК' has to be appreciated on own level. picture if a pig could grunt in reverse gear.) |
| 16:34 |
mircea_popescu |
lol |
| 16:34 |
Framedragger |
yeah at least kirilica works. (though vi displays that as [23:34:11] <asciilifeform> бÐ<9d>Ð<9e>Ð<9f>Ð<9d>Я Ð<92>ХРЮÐ<9a>? (tm) (r) because why not) |
| 16:35 |
mircea_popescu |
Framedragger you dunno the reference ? |
| 16:35 |
Framedragger |
apparently not |
| 16:35 |
* |
mircea_popescu lets alf do the honors. |
| 16:36 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=%D0%B1%D0%9D%D0%9E%D0%9F%D0%9D%D0%AF |
| 16:36 |
asciilifeform |
hm, it's dead again isnnit. |
| 16:37 |
mircea_popescu |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:431/to:431#431 << this is a feature of x. |
| 16:37 |
Framedragger |
(for logs, the joys that are unicode and utf-8 encoding, https://qntm.org/unicodings ) |
| 16:37 |
mircea_popescu |
http://lurkmore.ru/ВХРЮК |
| 16:38 |
mircea_popescu |
uh what was it |
| 16:38 |
mircea_popescu |
http://lurkmore.to/%D0%91%D0%9D%D0%9E%D0%9F%D0%9D%D0%AF lol |
| 16:40 |
* |
Framedragger (admits to barely be able to read .ru. can slowly articulate, and sometimes map to meanings) |
| 16:40 |
mircea_popescu |
ah. well, this very similar problem the russkis had in the 90s. |
| 16:40 |
Framedragger |
"ha" |
| 16:40 |
Framedragger |
echo 'Вопрос' | iconv -t cp1251 | iconv -f koi8-r |
| 16:40 |
Framedragger |
"koi8-r" ? |
| 16:41 |
Framedragger |
aha, "issue", encoded in some grotesque way |
| 16:41 |
mircea_popescu |
yeah |
| 16:42 |
Framedragger |
КПРФ -> йопт HAHAHA |
| 16:42 |
Framedragger |
pretty cool! |
| 16:42 |
mircea_popescu |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:450/to:450#450 << i don't think the guy personally has any voice into this whatsoever. see also http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:256/to:256#256 on this topic. basically, there's a very fat, dumb man walking around, and it tried to sit on a chair named eth which caught fire. the fat man still wants to sit, and monero is the one thing looking most like a chair available. it WILL si |
| 16:42 |
mircea_popescu |
t, and rando "fluffypony" has no say in this matter. |
| 16:42 |
mircea_popescu |
asciilifeform do you know the joke with the menstruating she-bear and the animals in the forest ? |
| 16:43 |
asciilifeform |
dun think so ? |
| 16:43 |
mircea_popescu |
rabbit is very very sad, because bear is on period, and well... |
| 16:43 |
mircea_popescu |
gotta use tampons, right ? |
| 16:43 |
mircea_popescu |
a week later, owl is very very sad |
| 16:43 |
mircea_popescu |
"wtf happened to you ?!" |
| 16:43 |
BingoBoingo |
Since deedbot seems sleepy http://qntra.net/2016/08/us-third-party-candidates-ad-buy-spotted-in-the-wild/ http://qntra.net/2016/08/update-on-some-forking-losers/ |
| 16:43 |
mircea_popescu |
"she thinks maxipads are the new rage" |
| 16:44 |
mircea_popescu |
bloomberg was itching to say "forget bitcoin" no fucking matter what. |
| 16:44 |
mircea_popescu |
and obviously, the worst thing that can happen to you is for your project to be leading the next sentence. but hey, the world is so cruel. |
| 16:45 |
trinque |
BingoBoingo: it spouted them |
| 16:45 |
BingoBoingo |
trinque: Did it? |
| 16:45 |
* |
BingoBoingo must have missed |
| 16:45 |
trinque |
20:04:39* @deedbot │ http://qntra.net/2016/08/update-on-some-forking-losers/ << Qntra - Update On Some Forking Losers |
| 16:46 |
mircea_popescu |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:462/to:462#462 << have you seen many lumps of steel covered in flies ? |
| 16:46 |
BingoBoingo |
Oh, I didn't scroll up enough |
| 16:46 |
mircea_popescu |
what, was it a cannonball someone shot into a warship made of solid fly wood ? |
| 16:49 |
BingoBoingo |
<mircea_popescu> http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:462/to:462#462 << have you seen many lumps of steel covered in flies ? << In commercial kitchen, yes! |
| 16:49 |
mircea_popescu |
heh. |
| 16:50 |
mircea_popescu |
anyway, "the technology" is rather uninteresting inasmuch as the project lead deliberately avoided presenting it to the republic, in spite of being invited to do so twice. |
| 16:50 |
mircea_popescu |
so no, prima facie the guy knows the whole thing's dumb. |
| 16:52 |
mircea_popescu |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:471/to:471#471 << you think ? |
| 16:52 |
Framedragger |
mircea_popescu: so it would seem that your irc client *may* be using Windows-1252, because 0x96 in Windows-1252 appears to be – (EN-DASH). but, i'm realllly not sure, because, encoding hell. moving on to other stuff... |
| 16:52 |
trinque |
wtf next tier past "design decision" is imagined there? |
| 16:53 |
mircea_popescu |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:475/to:475#475 << amusingly he's exactly right, although he doesn't know why. bitcoin hasn't been used by roger ver since cca 2013ish because roger ver has been flat broke ever since then. so no practical need, for him. |
| 16:53 |
mircea_popescu |
trinque i dunno, am exploring. |
| 16:54 |
Framedragger |
yeah, well, i may be underestimating the importance of such a 'design decision', in truth. |
| 16:55 |
mircea_popescu |
also, i never new before how much i loved the bot reading out the contents of log lines. |
| 16:55 |
mircea_popescu |
knew* |
| 16:56 |
Framedragger |
:/ |
| 16:56 |
mircea_popescu |
don't stress out eh. |
| 16:56 |
Framedragger |
education |
| 16:57 |
Framedragger |
(yeah i need to finish off a website because i promised to a relative, foolishly, now i gather. because some dude's flying and they need it right nao!!1 and gave promise. such is life) |
| 16:57 |
Framedragger |
flying in to give talk of book* |
| 16:58 |
mircea_popescu |
lol. hey, you're young, but at least not homeless! could have it worse. |
| 16:58 |
Framedragger |
indeed; not complaining too much |
| 16:59 |
mircea_popescu |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:491/to:491#491 << this is actually a very solid objection. the properties promised do not last, which is a very serious problem especially because it simultaneously caters to the idiocy of the webcrowd and to the strengths of the usg. |
| 16:59 |
Framedragger |
(ah, i only now figured that g_l == gabriel laddel) |
| 17:00 |
mircea_popescu |
let's not forget that the imbecile silk road guy actually told cops that "anyone could have sent him fake ids because there existrs silk road". the smoked out elliot rodger generation actually thinks this way. |
| 17:00 |
trinque |
Framedragger: allegedly! |
| 17:00 |
trinque |
could be some other homeless lispmonger |
| 17:01 |
Framedragger |
such mass exile |
| 17:01 |
mircea_popescu |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:506/to:506#506 << i'm frankly curious what'll come of this. |
| 17:02 |
mircea_popescu |
possibly the most precarious attempt to spin plates conceivable. |
| 17:03 |
Framedragger |
(it's midnight in utc+3, so newest log is at http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/today , just pointing this out, and yes things will be optimised laters) |
| 17:06 |
mircea_popescu |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:516/to:516#516 << you seriously don't see the precariousness of this ? if i tomorrow hire a stripper to go to their house and dance until they make it all be in a ruby gem in java, they'll do that, too ? |
| 17:15 |
mircea_popescu |
oh look, a crowdsourcing thing. |
| 17:17 |
mircea_popescu |
http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:543/to:543#543 << lmao more of that same http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20160830/from:645/to:645#645 eh ? fucking ITCHING, it's killing them. |
| 17:18 |
mircea_popescu |
i guess it's pure happenstance there's no cbs headlines about "Hussein Bahamas the Gay Prostitute" and such. |
| 17:19 |
mircea_popescu |
in more down to earth americana, https://archive.is/N4JvF - blondy kidnapped, gang-raped, murdered and fed to gators. pretty girl, too. |
| 17:19 |
asciilifeform |
eh, fed to gators when already dead. |
| 17:19 |
asciilifeform |
snore. |
| 17:22 |
mircea_popescu |
well, sure. the more interesting aspect : pure usg fabrication. like the other two. |
| 17:23 |
asciilifeform |
but neither more nor less so than any other usg prosecution. |
| 17:23 |
asciilifeform |
the accusation is more fantastic than usual, sure. |
| 17:24 |
asciilifeform |
but the relationship to physical facts is every bit as tenuous as in every other court process under the great inca. |
| |
~ 1 hours 33 minutes ~ |
| 18:58 |
mod6 |
ok, so I have this offline build script ready to go. |
| 18:58 |
mod6 |
and I'm gonna put it out there shortly. but just got a long distance in a short a mount of time working on these makefiles today. |
| 18:58 |
mod6 |
so it might be moot, soon. |
| 18:59 |
mod6 |
i'm a bit conflicted; but it might still be some work until the makefiles are fully baked. |
| 19:03 |
mod6 |
oh, and with those turn of the century disks; after grinding them down with the sanding block -- they're like solid aluminum. so i cut them into tiny pieces with these: |
| 19:03 |
mod6 |
https://www.milwaukeetool.com/hand-tools/snips-and-scissors/48-22-4010 |
| |
~ 21 minutes ~ |
| 19:24 |
mod6 |
http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-August/000231.html |
| |
↖ |
| 19:25 |
deedbot |
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/BF36993206C52161E9B40D730F32C683E7B758528EDAAFD0B17C3E1B0CCE28F5 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 11292545407594175178676347015728407315964404798513500904475751592529893233021480868652014808334425655353317917185993496061664578037945011652939076832189037 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '189.112.138.254 (ssh-rsa key from 189.112.138.254 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragge |
| 19:25 |
deedbot |
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/0648EBDEEF3F210D6A081115BD29DC916FCC304D6839A0D142993D704EACB182 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 11292545407594175178676347015728407315964404798513500904475751592529893233021480868652014808334425655353317917185993496061664578037945011652939076832189037 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '200.146.242.241 (ssh-rsa key from 200.146.242.241 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragge |
| 19:25 |
deedbot |
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/2054966AF8F713AEA82E57F5ABF335459A69F7F4F5C78D872AF13A51E058FAB5 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 11292545407594175178676347015728407315964404798513500904475751592529893233021480868652014808334425655353317917185993496061664578037945011652939076832189037 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '187.72.155.221 (ssh-rsa key from 187.72.155.221 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger |
| 19:25 |
deedbot |
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/58FA3607665FE6E88FEDDE7FE0C07F9E56D591CA9431E95899D57A5BA2D51EF3 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 11292545407594175178676347015728407315964404798513500904475751592529893233021480868652014808334425655353317917185993496061664578037945011652939076832189037 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '201.16.189.38 (ssh-rsa key from 201.16.189.38 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on |
| 19:25 |
deedbot |
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/D19454E9B6D21395452944451A4D50C0F7B5EABAB90D532FDF62F7A152856A66 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 11292545407594175178676347015728407315964404798513500904475751592529893233021480868652014808334425655353317917185993496061664578037945011652939076832189037 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '187.72.216.78 (ssh-rsa key from 187.72.216.78 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on |
| 19:27 |
asciilifeform |
much brazil. |
| 19:27 |
asciilifeform |
and this is, ftr, the most blown away in 1 shot to date. |
| |
~ 1 hours 58 minutes ~ |
| 21:26 |
mircea_popescu |
$up ImHash |
| 21:26 |
deedbot |
ImHash voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 21:27 |
mircea_popescu |
so i watched that alphadog movie elliot kid was all infatuated with. |
| 21:27 |
ImHash |
hi I'm from bitcoin talk |
| 21:27 |
mircea_popescu |
jesus christ is it a steaming pile of shit (with bruce willis and sharon stone, incomprehensibly). but the screenplay reads like it was written by reddit. |
| 21:27 |
mircea_popescu |
ImHash welcome ? |
| 21:29 |
ImHash |
what's gpg key? |
| 21:29 |
mircea_popescu |
$google gpg key |
| 21:30 |
deedbot |
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GNU_Privacy_Guard << GNU Privacy Guard - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia | https://www.gnupg.org/ << The GNU Privacy Guard | https://help.github.com/articles/generating-a-new-gpg-key/ << Generating a new GPG key - User Documentation |
| 21:30 |
ImHash |
lol I thought I could ask here :D |
| 21:43 |
mircea_popescu |
and in somewhat other news, http://www.villa-salo.dk/calendar.shtml |
| |
~ 17 minutes ~ |
| 22:00 |
mircea_popescu |
lol shinohai teh tardstalk folk are something else. "ok iam follow instruction your program". dude... buy a fucking period. |
| 22:00 |
mircea_popescu |
the ^ above is running a "fund management program". got a little confused. |
| 22:05 |
asciilifeform |
http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-30#1532275 << very, very neat mod6 . |
| 22:05 |
a111 |
Logged on 2016-08-30 23:24 mod6: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2016-August/000231.html |
| 22:06 |
asciilifeform |
exactly the thing that was needed. |
| 22:08 |
mod6 |
it's about to be moot very soon i think :] |
| 22:09 |
asciilifeform |
how's that |
| 22:09 |
mod6 |
makefiles. i just tested my changes with the deeds in place. works. |
| 22:09 |
mod6 |
needs some polishing, and an appropriate vpatch and such, but yeah, we're close. |
| 22:10 |
mod6 |
see, now, we have two different scripts; one to build while pulling items from the inet, and one for offline builds; the makefiles will combine these two capabilities. |
| 22:11 |
mod6 |
eitherway, works to bridge the gap until that part is complete. |
| 22:12 |
mircea_popescu |
pretty cool. |
| 22:12 |
mod6 |
im super excited. |
| 22:13 |
asciilifeform |
incidentally (and i have nfi whether this is obvious to people) the buildroot portion of rotor, the gcc build, etc. will be quite unnecessary on a box that is running a properly musltronic build built thereby already. |
| 22:13 |
trinque |
deedbot is becoming a package repo of sorts. |
| 22:13 |
mircea_popescu |
trinque somewhat unsurprising a major part of what we want notarized is computer code, in retospect. |
| 22:14 |
asciilifeform |
it is the way it is because it was actually the only way to get a repeatable and musltronic binary built on a heathen box. |
| 22:14 |
asciilifeform |
(i.e. a box where gcc was built on glibc) |
| 22:15 |
trinque |
makefiles don't rebuild the buildroot step more than once, so a gentleman could emplace that just as with the deeds, after having built one |
| 22:15 |
asciilifeform |
the up-side of rotorism is that you can build bitcoin for any cpu that your gcc knows about. |
| 22:16 |
asciilifeform |
trinque: it is unwise to treat binaries as portable. |
| 22:16 |
trinque |
nah, his own |
| 22:16 |
asciilifeform |
or to memorialize them whenever there is any practical alternative. |
| 22:16 |
mircea_popescu |
he did say "After the first time" |
| |
~ 1 hours 12 minutes ~ |
| 23:29 |
deedbot |
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/643A139EF044F87F326F313092BDE22D60C79A81318BABB87AE5C142BC86B939 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 93717621124200192314145705948137075738570941668159058108077267463226172347789 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '189.203.181.7 (ssh-rsa key from 189.203.181.7 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+189.203.181.7@mkj.lt>; |
| 23:29 |
deedbot |
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/839ABB69349BD78F784309DB89D871C3CA284C1EF0E060E1FF3A19BEB3882351 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 93717621124200192314145705948137075738570941668159058108077267463226172347789 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '187.188.126.28 (ssh-rsa key from 187.188.126.28 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+187.188.126.28@mkj.lt |
| 23:29 |
deedbot |
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/9D60710F34429805CA983E018B19C9D0400E3978C6A4F97721303D362A1E9941 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 93717621124200192314145705948137075738570941668159058108077267463226172347789 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '189.203.72.147 (ssh-rsa key from 189.203.72.147 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+189.203.72.147@mkj.lt |
| 23:29 |
deedbot |
http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/F97816E68FFBD245AD39F3509A34B16D8F193D91A6125903354AB4CB383548F3 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 93717621124200192314145705948137075738570941668159058108077267463226172347789 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '189.203.181.149 (ssh-rsa key from 189.203.181.149 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <sshscan-queries+189.203.181.149@mkj |
| 23:29 |
asciilifeform |
mexico. |
| 23:32 |
asciilifeform |
ooooh and, incidentally, |
| 23:32 |
asciilifeform |
$s 93717621124200192314145705948137075738570941668159058108077267463226172347789 |
| 23:32 |
a111 |
10 results for "93717621124200192314145705948137075738570941668159058108077267463226172347789", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=93717621124200192314145705948137075738570941668159058108077267463226172347789 |
| 23:32 |
asciilifeform |
^ just of this. |
| 23:33 |
asciilifeform |
well, 9. |
| 23:34 |
trinque |
would be interesting to see a geoip map of these |
| 23:39 |
BingoBoingo |
$up Palaboy |
| 23:39 |
deedbot |
Palaboy voiced for 30 minutes. |
| 23:48 |
hanbot |
hey mod6 99994 test worked flawlessly for me tonight. also, my testbox seems healthy again, available for further whatevers. |
| 23:57 |
trinque |
asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/3a02c655-f179-42b8-a710-26ec8bd2c0c1/?raw=true << a lot of Juarez. |
| 23:58 |
ben_vulpes |
Framedragger: i would dearly like for the second click on a log timestamp to not populate the "from" query parameter (if that's even what that is in your system) |