Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2015-07-18 | 2015-07-20 → ↓
00:02 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16501 @ 0.00053764 = 8.8716 BTC [-]
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00:25 mod6 `man 1 patch`: -E When patch removes a file, it also attempts to remove any empty ancestor directories. << i can't get it to leave the empty dirs.
00:27 mod6 perhaps we just don't use my submitted patch and then I just prune the baracles by hand in the release source base.
00:27 mod6 leaving the necessary directories.
00:36 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24600 @ 0.00055628 = 13.6845 BTC [+] {2}
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01:42 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20850 @ 0.00055783 = 11.6308 BTC [+]
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02:14 ben_vulpes mod6: were they using .gitignore files as .gitkeeps?
02:15 ben_vulpes btw is it me or was linus retarded for making git work in such a way that one has to stick a file in a dir to get git to keep it around?
02:15 ben_vulpes AND if i'm reading this thread correctly if we blow away the DIR (!?!) compilation fails?
02:15 ben_vulpes the mind boggles
02:16 * ben_vulpes back to drinking with crazyfam
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02:47 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30450 @ 0.00054694 = 16.6543 BTC [-] {2}
02:59 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4950 @ 0.00055783 = 2.7613 BTC [+]
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03:40 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3290 @ 0.00054346 = 1.788 BTC [-]
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03:56 punkman mod6: punkman: I get this error when I try to compile with your patch http://dpaste.com/11G00N1.txt << strange
03:56 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1RGLs5B )
04:04 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18800 @ 0.00055783 = 10.4872 BTC [+]
04:09 punkman oic now, forgot to put ShrinkDebugFile back in after deleting in first version, sorry!
04:15 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7090 @ 0.00055471 = 3.9329 BTC [-]
04:17 jurov ;;isup qntra.net
04:17 gribble qntra.net is down
04:17 jurov down and proud
04:21 mircea_popescu jurov myeah atm being ddos'd on like 4 ips
04:21 mircea_popescu i guess ima just buy a c block
04:22 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13340 @ 0.00055783 = 7.4415 BTC [+]
04:24 jurov how would that help?
04:25 jurov looks like you'll end up with content distribution network and that does not need one c block
04:25 mircea_popescu nah
04:26 mircea_popescu im all for it, let the guy waste his botnet time on qntra, 255 ips at a time, 65536 ips at a time, whatever.
04:26 mircea_popescu not like he's doing any damage to anything but himself.
04:27 jurov you think it's ionly some kids that will exhaust their resources soon?
04:28 * mircea_popescu shrugs.
04:28 jurov otherwise your whole C or even D block may get null routed instead...
04:28 mircea_popescu notrly how this works.
04:38 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27513 @ 0.00055471 = 15.2617 BTC [-]
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06:45 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10250 @ 0.00056131 = 5.7534 BTC [-]
06:52 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43850 @ 0.00055825 = 24.4793 BTC [-]
06:57 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26811 @ 0.00055914 = 14.9911 BTC [+] {2}
06:58 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19489 @ 0.00056284 = 10.9692 BTC [+]
07:03 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206064 << sounds yummy. i'll be attempting deployment and report.
07:03 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 00:22:12; assbot: Logged on 18-07-2015 18:10:58; mod6: <+mircea_popescu> mod6 so what's the plan, turning stator into a release ? << Yeah. I believe 'stator' + { eat/dump block, rm testnet & verifyall } should be the 5.4 release unless anything additional is submitted before we can finish testing & bundling release.
07:04 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28847 @ 0.00055459 = 15.9983 BTC [-] {2}
07:05 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14253 @ 0.00055314 = 7.8839 BTC [-]
07:11 mircea_popescu http://blogs.law.harvard.edu/philg/2015/07/18/what-other-currencies-besides-bitcoin-have-experienced-inverse-debasement-basement/comment-page-1/#comment-267798 for teh lulz
07:11 assbot Philip Greenspun's Weblog » What other currencies besides Bitcoin have experienced inverse debasement? (“basement”?) ... ( http://bit.ly/1RGSg3h )
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07:27 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-07-2015#1205907 << yeah obviously you gotta freeze and release now and again.
07:27 assbot Logged on 18-07-2015 18:33:59; mod6: Anyway, most of the submissions so far have been pretty top notch. We want to encourage people in the WoT to submit patches. If something is submitted but doesn't make it into a release right away, that certainly doesn't mean it won't be pulled in to a later milestone.
07:27 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-07-2015#1205926 << word.
07:27 assbot Logged on 18-07-2015 19:07:35; ben_vulpes: <punkman> I'd really like the debug.log to be parseable, that's the main motivation here << this is an excellent goal. a+ if you crap out an EBNF to go along with it, instead of some "protocol is in the code" parser script.
07:31 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-07-2015#1206026 not even a bad idea, at that.
07:31 assbot Logged on 18-07-2015 21:38:39; felipelalli: keep both online, but when the free version is being attacked at least you have an alternative
07:31 mircea_popescu i guess we're all just holding our breaths for the gossipd
07:34 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206063 << not like there's an obligation on the part of anyone to sign. if people are happy with what signatures they see, they can use. if not, not.
07:34 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 00:22:12; ascii_modem: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-07-2015#1205870 << wai wut - ?? - no one signed that he has read, tested - and straight to release?
07:35 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206080 << lawds have mercies.
07:35 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 00:41:04; ben_vulpes: ;;later tell solrodar hey man i need a hand compiling boost in order to test your callgraph visualizer
07:36 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206120 <<< someone gets it
07:36 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 01:18:02; ben_vulpes: anyways, the drivetrain is incorrect. yes, electrical drive is fantastic for the low-end torque, but regen brakes of engineering necessity must clamp down insanely hard in order to maximize current out of the machines.
07:37 mircea_popescu there are TONS of such problems with the thing. not that they're necessarily unresolvable - maybe they'll get fixed. they won't get fixed however for a pet project that goes about as far as the "be an astronaut" curios.
07:37 punkman fwiw, I've read the patches and it all seems good. I only have reservations about the 2 orphanage burning patches
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07:38 mircea_popescu if you can make a strong statement about some/all, signing's not a bad idea.
07:39 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206146 << i've been mulling over this the whole fucking day, incidentally. if i were ceo of any automaker and the new model made the old models go up in price, i would on the spot fire the entire design team.
07:39 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 01:31:55; pete_dushenski: easily 2-2.5x 2010 prices. easily.
07:39 punkman I'm
07:39 mircea_popescu with actual kicks to the backside, no joking around. "you are done in this industry and your mothers should be ashamed of fucking drunks"
07:39 mircea_popescu and this because if i were the board of an automaker where this happened and the ceo failed to so fire the design team, i'd so fire the ceo.
07:40 mircea_popescu this is failure of an unprecedented scale, i'm not even sure it can be put into words what exactly it means.
07:40 mircea_popescu it is in fact the superlative failure.
07:48 mircea_popescu an' in other news, http://31.media.tumblr.com/6c78f64a9cf079591e14000cf747ece1/tumblr_n2hiv0hJsV1ra163eo7_r1_500.gif
07:48 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1J97Fnw )
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11:41 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16844 @ 0.00054479 = 9.1764 BTC [-]
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12:14 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17162 @ 0.00057475 = 9.8639 BTC [+]
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12:19 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2997 @ 0.00057531 = 1.7242 BTC [+]
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12:49 scoopbot_revived The lulz of today, or "you think it's only some kids that will exhaust their resources soon?" http://trilema.com/2015/the-lulz-of-today-or-you-think-its-only-some-kids-that-will-exhaust-their-resources-soon/
13:03 oglafbot http://oglaf.com/hotdots/
13:03 assbot Hot Dots ... ( http://bit.ly/1fVEtFr )
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13:33 Naphex https://xotika.tv/#/channel173/AliceRichard
13:33 assbot XOtika.TV: Bitcoin adult live streaming community. ... ( http://bit.ly/1KeN1nq )
13:35 danielpbarron Naphex, is it possible to initiate private shows, or at the very least send private messages to the model?
13:38 Naphex danielpbarron: nope
13:38 Naphex why?
13:41 danielpbarron i mean, why not? why does the troll box have to be visible to other wanker?
13:41 danielpbarron isn't the point to tell the girl what you'd like to see
13:42 danielpbarron having to do this on display infront of other guys isn't the most condusive to arousal i would imagine
13:42 danielpbarron or maybe i totally misunderstand the demographic you're looking to attract
13:44 Naphex ah :D didn't know you were that emberrased :)
13:44 Naphex perhaps try a new nickname :p
13:44 Naphex but seriously, at some point i will be adding a private button with pay per minute
13:47 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8967 @ 0.00055614 = 4.9869 BTC [-]
13:54 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22150 @ 0.00055614 = 12.3185 BTC [-]
14:05 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28650 @ 0.00057531 = 16.4826 BTC [+]
14:11 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20650 @ 0.00057569 = 11.888 BTC [+] {3}
14:17 mod6 <+ben_vulpes> mod6: were they using .gitignore files as .gitkeeps? << it seems that way kinda. i guess people tend to use .gitkeep (an unsupported work around instead. but w/e)
14:18 mod6 <+ben_vulpes> AND if i'm reading this thread correctly if we blow away the DIR (!?!) compilation fails? << yeah, it's not really linus or git, it's patch that does the dirty work. and yeah, the makefile depends on being able to write to some of the dirs.
14:19 mod6 <+punkman> oic now, forgot to put ShrinkDebugFile back in after deleting in first version, sorry! << np, just resubmit and i'll give it another try. or even just pass me a version before submit if you like just to be sure it works. np.
14:21 scoopbot_revived Porscheflation and the death of automotive purity. http://www.contravex.com/2015/07/19/porscheflation-and-the-death-of-automotive-purity/
14:22 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91995 @ 0.00054932 = 50.5347 BTC [-] {5}
14:23 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31355 @ 0.00053912 = 16.9041 BTC [-] {3}
14:24 mod6 oh and there is a new Gentoo guide for nomultilib/glibc -- I created it yesterday & trinque verified as well:
14:25 mod6 http://thebitcoin.foundation/gentoo-stage3-amd64-nomultilib-guide.txt
14:25 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1TKHZ3E )
14:25 mod6 http://thebitcoin.foundation/gentoo-stage3-amd64-nomultilib-guide-wFullExamples.txt
14:25 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1TKHZAw )
14:25 asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206294 << share plz
14:25 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 11:37:45; punkman: fwiw, I've read the patches and it all seems good. I only have reservations about the 2 orphanage burning patches
14:26 asciilifeform i've been waiting to hear somebody describe ~some~, even very theoretical, down side for those
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14:27 mod6 So this can be used as a test platform for all the patches, etc. . If you're really ambitious you can install gentoo as above ^^ then use this to pull down the v0.5.3.1 basecode and apply these patches: http://dpaste.com/23VKWD8.txt
14:27 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1CQdaWK )
14:28 mod6 But you'll still have to create your own distfiles + ourlibs then drop in ssl/bdb/boost into distfiles. then pull down stator and build.
14:30 mod6 so yeah this is annoying with `patch`. if you do `patch -p1 --posix < rm_gitignore.patch` it doesn't remove the dirs /or/ the files, just leaves 'em truncated. which is dumb too.
14:31 mod6 i searched lastnight for a looong time to find anything to tell patch to no prune empty directories, but it doesnt seem like an available option.
14:31 mod6 s/no/not/
14:32 asciilifeform mod6: iirc patch cannot remove dirs. which is why i wrote 'chicken' the way i did
14:32 asciilifeform this is all in the logz.
14:32 mod6 it does remove dirs.
14:32 asciilifeform hm
14:32 mod6 check out `man 1 patch` -E
14:32 asciilifeform ah i recall
14:32 asciilifeform it removes files by shitting out the whole file as a minus sign delta
14:32 asciilifeform which pissed me off
14:33 asciilifeform (what kind of imbecile thought that this was appropriate ?!)
14:33 mod6 yeah, it basically zero's out the file, and then it seems to remove the file with -N (diff) and if there is nothing left in the directory, it zaps that as well.
14:34 mod6 lol, yeah it's obnoxious. and i think the only way to solve this is to remove them by hand.
14:34 mod6 but now I'm scared that even if i /do/ remove them by hand, they might get accidentially pruned by a downstream patch (later in time) causing the makefile to puke.
↖ ↖
14:35 asciilifeform wai wat
14:35 asciilifeform i'm still not entirely grasping how all of this came about
14:36 mod6 ben reminded me to add a patch that removes the 5 .gitignore files. seems easy enough, so crated a quick patch, attempted to apply, worked fine -- I didn't notice that it blew away the directories as well though. : obj/test obj/nogui obj-test
14:37 asciilifeform possibly ought to be a shell script rather than patch.
14:37 mod6 here's the patch: http://therealbitcoin.org/ml/btc-dev/2015-July/000125.html
14:37 assbot [BTC-dev] Remove .gitignore files from Reference Implementationcodebase ... ( http://bit.ly/1TKIBX1 )
14:37 asciilifeform unix patch util is diagnosably retarded, we knew this
14:37 mod6 yah, and when applied `patch` ends up removing the dirs along with the .gitignore files because it renderes those directories empty.
14:38 mod6 lol, it's trying to be helpful.
14:38 mod6 "why would you want an empty directory!"
14:38 mod6 smh
14:39 mod6 so... yah, a bash script or removal by hand. would be fine i'd think. but now i gotta test it a bit harder. if we leave empty directories in there, im worred that patch might come along at a later time and be helpful again, removing those object output diretories.
14:39 mod6 unless our solution is to add .keep files in there, which i think kinda sucks.
14:39 mod6 if i want an empty dir, i should be able to have an empty dir
14:41 mod6 anyway i'll work on it. just don't use the rm_gitignore patch.
14:47 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12700 @ 0.00057588 = 7.3137 BTC [+] {2}
14:49 mod6 i might just be dumb. build a test env with http://dpaste.com/23VKWD8.txt and see if anyone can get the rm_gitignore.patch file to apply without removing the obj/test obj/nogui or obj-test dirrs
14:49 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1TKJCy8 )
14:52 mod6 well, thats weird. it seems to remove obj/test and obj/nogui, but NOT obj-test which is left empty?!!?
14:52 mod6 now im really confused.
14:52 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36050 @ 0.00055166 = 19.8873 BTC [-] {2}
14:53 mod6 the only thing in the obj-test directory before applying that patch is '.gitignore' so why wouldn't it be removed like obj/test and obj/nogui?
14:59 mod6 maybe the best option is to add a one line shell script that just does: `find . -name ".gitignore" -exec rm '{}' \;`
14:59 mod6 that'll leave the dirs in place
14:59 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 107450 @ 0.00053397 = 57.3751 BTC [-] {4}
15:02 decimation http://www.washingtonpost.com/business/economy/silicon-valley-struggles-to-hack-its-diversity-problem/2015/07/16/0b0144be-2053-11e5-84d5-eb37ee8eaa61_story.html < lol the 'google is racisis' shoe is dropping, as predicted by anyone with a brain
15:02 assbot Silicon Valley struggles to hack its diversity problem - The Washington Post ... ( http://bit.ly/1CQgdOH )
15:03 decimation "Yahoo disclosed last week that African Americans made up just 2 percent of its workers, while Hispanics stood at 4 percent. Those revelations came days after Facebook reported that in 2014 it had employed just 81 blacks among its 5,500 U.S. workers."
15:03 decimation http://unqualified-reservations.blogspot.com/2013/09/technology-communism-and-brown-scare.html < " Google, of course, claims the fact that it would rather hire out of East Bosnia than East Palo Alto is a competitive trade secret. Well, I suppose. Curiously enough, Apple, Yahoo, and Oracle share the same secret. Ha, ha! Is it a secret to you? It's not a secret to me!"
15:03 assbot Unqualified Reservations: Technology, communism and the Brown Scare ... ( http://bit.ly/1CQghhw )
15:08 asciilifeform ;;later tell mircea_popescu whitehouse .org ?! iirc that was a parody site...
15:08 gribble The operation succeeded.
15:08 decimation I thought it was a porn site
15:08 asciilifeform this re: http://trilema.com/2015/the-lulz-of-today-or-you-think-its-only-some-kids-that-will-exhaust-their-resources-soon
15:08 assbot The lulz of today, or "you think it's only some kids that will exhaust their resources soon?" on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1TKLzL8 )
15:09 decimation also, I don't know what the 'web 2.0' thing he posted a picture of is? is that some kind of dns control panel?
↖
15:10 asciilifeform decimation: i think so
15:14 kakobrekla its https://www.whatsmydns.net
15:14 assbot Global DNS Propagation Checker - What's My DNS? ... ( http://bit.ly/1CQh0iR )
15:15 jurov https://www.distractify.com/top-athletes-go-nude-showcase-amazingly-sculpted-bodies-in-espn-mag-1253697340.html not nsfw but perhaps will do :)
15:15 assbot AMAZING COMPANY!
15:15 assbot Top Athletes Go Nude, Showcase Amazingly Sculpted Bodies in ESPN Mag ... ( http://bit.ly/1CQh6aa )
15:15 asciilifeform so why did mircea_popescu clobber a random derp site ?
15:16 asciilifeform (iirc one of us suggested this experiment nearly a year ago, but noted that the proper whitehouse oughta be used)
15:16 decimation the amusing thing to me is that the 'ddos cannon' is using dns
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15:16 decimation but I too am curious how disabling qntra's dns while clobbering random bystanders helps anybody
15:17 decimation I suppose it kinda has to use dns to defeat trival remappings
15:17 asciilifeform aha
15:20 decimation at any rate, it does seem that the 'content distribution network' approach is the only one that seems to hold up against this kinda crap
15:21 decimation granted, it's expensive to build and maintain, but it was kinda baked into the way the internet works
15:23 decimation why not take the 'pay per page' subscription model one step further? 'pay to route' pakets, in btc?
15:24 asciilifeform have fun with tx fees and hour-long confirmations for packet
15:24 decimation heh, well obviously you would prepay
15:25 jurov and routers verifying sigs for 1e6 packets/sec , rly?
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15:25 asciilifeform jurov: that part's easy.
15:25 decimation you could put a packet counter pretty easily
15:25 decimation automation could talk & update router regularly
15:26 decimation no sigs, just ips
15:26 asciilifeform a stateful solution is ipso facto a wrong solution.
15:26 jurov everyone does spoofed ips
15:26 decimation now, the scammer could discover a 'credited ip' and run down its account
15:26 asciilifeform ^ and for other reasons.
15:26 asciilifeform SIGNATURE IN EVERY MOTHERFUCKING PACKET
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15:26 asciilifeform or no route.
15:26 decimation asciilifeform: well, I agree with that too
15:27 asciilifeform at all levels, too.
15:27 decimation but remember how it was rejected as being 'too friendly to third parties'
15:27 asciilifeform this is also why every packet is rsa-encrypted to the destination's pubkey.
15:28 jurov asciilifeform: how would that cheap 1e6/sec sig verificating router look?
15:28 asciilifeform jurov: asic
15:28 decimation jurov: yeah it would need to be done in custom logic
15:28 decimation jurov: to be fair, cisco does the same thing (custom logic in router)
15:28 jurov of course, but cisco just moves bits and does not do crypto
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15:29 asciilifeform the heroic bandwidths are, imho, unnecessary - the only thing it needs to do extremely quickly is to reject enemy garbage
15:29 decimation ^
15:29 decimation for webpages anyway
15:29 decimation maybe crypto-netflix is later
15:30 decimation asciilifeform: how could you route if the destination were encrypted?
15:30 decimation some kind of onion-routing?
15:30 asciilifeform decimation: wot routing
15:30 asciilifeform 'mother taught me never to speak with strangers' (tm) (r)
15:30 jurov but if you check sigs at destination, then you haven't solved ddos at all
15:31 jurov they need to be checked at places where do 1e6 pkt/sec flow
15:31 asciilifeform jurov: aha. and you check them at line speed.
15:31 asciilifeform with asic
15:31 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39000 @ 0.0005763 = 22.4757 BTC [+] {2}
15:32 jurov any asic that comes even close to that? ecdsa/2048RSA?
15:32 asciilifeform jurov: recall what asic means
15:32 asciilifeform what it means is, designed for the occasion
15:32 decimation sure, you could do line-speed rsa
15:32 asciilifeform none of this is an open problem in any sense
15:33 decimation probably could go to opencores right now and find a crypto block
15:33 asciilifeform decimation: wouldn't go that far
15:33 asciilifeform probably needs to be designed the old-fashioned way, to get real performance
15:33 asciilifeform rather than hll synthesis
15:33 jurov we can do asics that easily do 1e6*1e5 operations per second ?
15:33 jurov (ecdsa is on order of 1e5)
15:33 decimation jurov: 1 gigabit ~= 8333 packets/sec
15:34 asciilifeform jurov: checking sigs parallelizes linearly
15:34 asciilifeform the only thing you need the fast logic for is to mux/demux to the processing pipes
15:35 decimation it might add a tiny bit of latency
15:35 jurov dear decimation these ddoses have tens or hundreds gigabits... and not with 1500 byt packets
↖
15:35 phf build FIDO on top of gossipd ;)
15:36 asciilifeform jurov: understand that the solution has to be deployed as a network, rather than in one point
15:36 asciilifeform a network that a wotless wolf cannot even connect to in any meaningful sense.
15:36 jurov but i understood it will be built on ip anyway
15:36 asciilifeform wolf gets to stay in the forest, outside city walls
15:36 asciilifeform can build on anything you like
15:36 decimation which is roughly the position we are all in, failing to have $$ mil networks
15:37 decimation jurov: why does qntra need more than 1 gigabit
15:37 jurov what if there are million wolves and you must check their sigs?
15:37 jurov decimation: it does not need gigabit!
15:37 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10400 @ 0.00057699 = 6.0007 BTC [+]
15:37 jurov but if you get gigawolves via ip arriginv, how are you getting sheep through?
15:38 asciilifeform jurov: the point is that the million wolves are, in your example, all lining up at one gate
15:38 decimation they have valid sigs?
15:38 asciilifeform why is there only one gate ?
15:38 jurov how does the gate look? like tor enter node?
15:39 asciilifeform approximately
15:39 jurov ah that i wanted to know
15:39 asciilifeform and since we aren't a usg wankatron like tor, there is no reason for all of the 'gates' to be publicly advertised
15:39 asciilifeform or even to remain the same from day to day
15:40 decimation I think ascii is proposing something like tor except everyone knows everyone else, and routes accordingly
15:40 jurov !s cjdns
15:40 assbot 10 results for 'cjdns' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=cjdns
15:41 asciilifeform decimation: this is rather like saying 'proposed something like a chair, except that it flies through space and takes pictures'
15:42 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18100 @ 0.00057699 = 10.4435 BTC [+]
15:42 asciilifeform gossip net is rather more like anarchist 'cells' than anything else.
15:43 phf it's more fidonet with crypto handshakes
↖
15:43 asciilifeform aha
15:44 decimation back in the day, ham radio folks used to run something much like fidonet except completely over shortwave/vhf radio
15:44 asciilifeform but the aspect i'd like to emphasize - one which mircea_popescu thought to be an optional frill and did not include in his spec - is the single-packet authentication.
15:44 asciilifeform it is the one and only pill against ddos
15:44 decimation as I recall his objection is that he didn't want third parties to be able to easily glean identites from packets
15:45 asciilifeform generally speaking, your machine - to an attacker lacking the keys - must look exactly like an empty wall socket to the enemy.
15:45 phf and you want it to be fully stateless?
15:45 asciilifeform decimation: attacker cannot glean identity from an rsa-encrypted packet sent to a known public key
15:45 asciilifeform payload (incl. the signature) is in the crypted blob
↖
15:45 decimation yeah I didn't recall the encrypted part being mentioned before
15:46 decimation clear signatures would
15:46 asciilifeform ~i~ mentioned it
↖
15:46 decimation gonna have to re-read
15:46 asciilifeform again, it wasn't in mircea_popescu's spec
↖
15:46 decimation yeah I was more interested in the argument that generated it
15:47 asciilifeform iirc he still thinks that ip as it exists now can be entirely abstracted over, and that the spec ought not mention details like packets
15:47 decimation my earlier proposal of 'charging per packet routed' is a jungle way of implementing this
15:47 decimation I see ip has here to stay forever, because of the $$ bil it would cost to do otherwise
15:48 decimation maybe even $$ tril
15:49 mircea_popescu asciilifeform well the whole thing's a parody.
15:49 mircea_popescu anyway, wanted to see i can first take down random sites with it
15:49 mircea_popescu not like you're going to see it on wh.gov
15:50 decimation you did force the attacker to lay down one card
15:51 mircea_popescu 23.45.18.92 pings just fine. honestly it'd be sad if it didn't.
15:53 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206352 << obviously, inasmuch as they're the result of lengthy consideration / involved discussion here, their unexpected downsides shouldn't be expected to be provided by us.
15:53 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 18:26:59; asciilifeform: i've been waiting to hear somebody describe ~some~, even very theoretical, down side for those
15:54 mircea_popescu apparently either there's none or everyone else in bitcoin is just watching tv.
15:55 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206370 << this makes sense.
15:55 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 18:34:53; mod6: but now I'm scared that even if i /do/ remove them by hand, they might get accidentially pruned by a downstream patch (later in time) causing the makefile to puke.
15:57 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34200 @ 0.00057753 = 19.7515 BTC [+] {3}
15:58 asciilifeform there is a basic principle which applies equally to the 'orphanage' discussions and to today's ddos thread: NEVER give derps something valuable just for showing up
15:58 asciilifeform in NO possible universe does this lead to anything but grief
15:59 asciilifeform there is NO circumventing this, because ultimately it is a thermodynamic law
15:59 decimation asciilifeform: in this way you can see how the internet 'as is' is doomed to some degree
15:59 asciilifeform decimation: it is as doomed as the cartoon wolf who walks off the cliff and does not necessarily notice - at first
16:00 decimation no, I would argue that the benefits accrue to specific corporations
16:00 mircea_popescu obviously.
16:00 decimation for instance, spam drives everyone to big isp mail hosts, gmail, etc - not only for spam protection but also for 'web of trust'
16:00 asciilifeform decimation: re: the orphanages, if you have them at all, what you're doing is 'i'll store this piece of shit on your say-so, and MAYBE it will be shown to be a valid block (rx) later'
16:01 asciilifeform hence 'jam tomorrow'
16:01 decimation 'web of trust' in this case being the poorly done implmentations of smtp routing
16:01 mircea_popescu decimation riddle me this : you don't like reading dumb "newspapers", but how many good ones were sunk by exactly this before you heard of them ?
16:01 mircea_popescu the process ensures everyone has to swim in the same pisspool.
16:02 decimation yeah it's a fair point
16:02 decimation the pre-digital version was expecting some kind of handout/human attenion being paid to a stranger
16:03 decimation similarly, the 'ddos attackers' end up driving everyone to akamai, etc
16:04 decimation virii/malware benefit mcaffee and usg's 'cyber' budget
16:06 decimation asciilifeform: I predict the bitcoin version will be resolved with some kind of central transaction clearhouse monopoly, sadly
16:06 asciilifeform decimation: in what sense would that look like 'bitcoin' at all ?
16:07 decimation what other option is there?
16:07 decimation spv mining?
16:08 decimation satoshi was being dumb when he failed to program payments for caching
16:08 asciilifeform i still utterly fail to see what is so wrong with classic bitcoin
16:09 decimation umm, didn't you just complain about the orphan problem?
16:09 asciilifeform i shot that problem in the head
16:09 asciilifeform while remaining compatible
16:09 asciilifeform hence it was not part of 'bitcoin' at all.
16:09 decimation hehe good point
16:09 asciilifeform it was just a piece of shit stuck to the skin, not a tumour
16:10 decimation but someone still needs to hold transactions until they 'clear'
16:10 asciilifeform think of it this way - the mempool isn't, by the same token, really 'part of bitcoin' either
16:10 asciilifeform there are 1,001 possible ways to queue up transactions for miners to choose from
16:10 decimation mempool in this case being the gigantic c++ 'map' that holds transactions in memory?
16:11 phf re: orphanage, i'm still investigating, but there's no reason why we can't have a better initial sync block handoff strategy, that doesn't get stock, because some parent in an orphanage subchain failed to get sent out
16:11 asciilifeform the current one mostly works. if sufficiently abused, and folks with actual stake in the matter get sufficiently annoyed, another one will be used
16:11 phf *get stuck
16:11 asciilifeform mircea_popescu suggested at least one alternate scheme, iirc
16:11 asciilifeform phf: in case you missed it, my nodes are not stuck
16:12 decimation I suppose my point (central clearinghouse) is that I foresee some entity like akamai that will 'magic away' this problem for miners, who will all pay for the service
16:12 asciilifeform if the miners want to march into a usg mousetrap, no problem
16:12 asciilifeform it will snap shut, and a new set will be born
16:13 decimation yes, but you would agree that building such a network with an eye toward minimizingn latency everywhere would be expensive
↖
16:13 decimation because miners are gonna want max fees with min latency
16:14 jurov it's not hard for every node to advertise addy for caching fees
↖
16:14 jurov only needs wallet that creates N copies of the tx with N addresses
16:14 jurov let them compete
16:15 decimation jurov, what is 'N'? the length of the cache?
16:15 jurov no, N nodes
16:15 decimation ah I see
16:16 phf asciilifeform: it's not a permanent stuck, but a slowdown. i haven't sent out that orphanage graph that i posted some time ago, because i'm still kicking shit around, but the beahior that you can see from it, is that blocks are sent out as multiple subchains. when a subchain arrives that's missing a parent subchain, it gets rejected many times over and over, until parent subchain is filled in. i think the behavior can be improved by
16:16 phf mucking around with the code that desides what blocks to send to a requesting client
16:16 decimation yeah that's kinda what I'm hinting at I guess
16:16 decimation jurov: I was envision the miners paying for your caches, on the assumption that most folks won't want to pay a third party to clearn bitcoin
16:17 asciilifeform phf: it would be absolutely trivial to send blocks in a sane way to compatible clients. 'embrace & extend' protocol
16:17 jurov most people are not interesting here
16:17 asciilifeform ^^^
16:18 decimation yeah, it's a fair point. that point has been made
16:18 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/pub/gentoo.jpg << for serious gentoo aficionados only !
16:18 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dp23iJ )
16:18 decimation even in the fiat world, actual people transmitting actual money would expect to pay
16:18 phf asciilifeform: well, i wouldn't say "trivial", but yes
16:20 decimation asciilifeform: was that taken at a zoo?
16:20 asciilifeform decimation: aha, where else. central park.
16:20 decimation heh. I admit part of me wants to journey to the falkland islands to see the gentoos
16:21 phf asciilifeform: of course the easiest option is to add a new network command, that does a sane request for initial block chain parts, but i think it can still be done within the framework of current sync model
16:22 asciilifeform i see nothing wrong with a 'get block N' command.
16:22 decimation phf you are thinking 'give me block #N'?
16:22 decimation heh
16:22 decimation asciilifeform: what if you have an ongoing fork?
16:23 asciilifeform then same situation as now
16:23 decimation I suppose the serving node still has some idea of what block N is
16:23 phf where N is the hash or the height?
16:23 asciilifeform height!
16:23 decimation yes
16:23 phf right
16:24 decimation actually such a command would be very useful for a 'fork detector'
16:24 phf well, that's certainly a way to cut gordian knot
16:25 ag3nt_zer0 good day all...
16:26 ag3nt_zer0 I am trying to enter my public key at nosuchlabs.com but am getting an internal server error
16:27 asciilifeform ag3nt_zer0: it is mighty busy
16:27 asciilifeform please do try again
16:27 phf at which point do you stop doing get block # and switch back to current sync process? or never?
16:28 asciilifeform why ever
16:28 ag3nt_zer0 am i supposed to enter the entire text file, including ---Begin Public Key Block----, or just the string of shit? sorry don't know the technical term...
16:29 asciilifeform whole thing
16:29 ag3nt_zer0 thx
16:30 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/pub/gentoo2.jpg << moar gentoo!
16:30 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dp32zk )
16:31 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/pub/ln2.jpg << liquid n2 on the steets of manhattan. every coupla blocks
16:31 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dp37mE )
16:31 asciilifeform the hose disappears into a telco pit
16:32 asciilifeform (why? almost certainly for the same reason as http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-05-2014#656219 where i live)
16:32 assbot Logged on 02-05-2014 21:23:21; asciilifeform: instead, there are tanks of co2 chained to poles here and there
16:32 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21630 @ 0.00057881 = 12.5197 BTC [+]
16:33 punkman mod6: ben reminded me to add a patch that removes the 5 .gitignore files. << I dunno why patch was needed for this, just remove them manually in next release
16:33 asciilifeform long ago, i used to work with dewars quite like these. and never expected to find them on city streets
16:34 asciilifeform https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juZqGU9iuq0
16:34 assbot The Liquid Nitrogen Tanks of New York - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dp3mOu )
16:34 asciilifeform ^ apparently other folks noticed
16:37 asciilifeform when i saw them, i started following the hose, in hopes of finding an ln2 icecream monger !
16:37 asciilifeform (an old university delicacy.)
16:38 punkman asciilifeform: I don't really have a theory. are we sure that nuked orphanage can't cause more wedges?
16:38 asciilifeform punkman: i have yet to conceive of any wedge or other undesirable effect from it, other than a bit of wasted bandwidth
16:38 phf i think maybe getblocks already works like "get block N" where n is block height. client sends out his top block on a chain, and server responds with a sequences (?) of blocks from then on
16:38 asciilifeform (since you can't stop other folks from sending you bastard garbage)
16:44 punkman do they have liquid nitrogen in other US cities?
16:44 punkman seems expensive to maintain
16:44 asciilifeform punkman: here in dc region they use tanks of compressed co2
16:45 asciilifeform the one i spoke of in the linked thread hasn't been changed in... 2yrs
16:45 asciilifeform if not longer
16:45 asciilifeform quite empty
16:45 punkman I have never seen any such thing in europe, perhaps they hide them
16:45 asciilifeform the ones in nyc were fresh, covered in frost
16:45 asciilifeform i do not know how long they have been there, but would dare to guess that it is since the flood a few yrs ago
16:46 asciilifeform punkman: bottled dry gas is not a standard feature of copper phone grid!
16:46 punkman guess it's cheaper than digging out shitty cables and replacing them
16:46 asciilifeform normally, there are dry air machines at the exchange
16:47 asciilifeform they blow straight into cable ducts
16:47 asciilifeform (for fiber, all of this is entirely unnecessary)
16:47 punkman don't fiber bundles have copper sometimes?
16:47 asciilifeform for what ?
16:48 asciilifeform optically-pumped repeaters are sop for... last decade ?
16:48 punkman optically pumped repeaters? that sounds interesting
16:49 punkman https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Optical_communications_repeater
16:49 assbot Optical communications repeater - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kf6tQN )
16:52 Naphex nhttps://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3dumhy/we_are_alice_jessica_victoria_and_brandy_from/
16:56 Naphex that cam on stick thing
16:56 Naphex pretty cool
16:56 mod6 <+punkman> mod6: ben reminded me to add a patch that removes the 5 .gitignore files. << I dunno why patch was needed for this, just remove them manually in next release << yeah, i mentioned that after the fact lastnight. but was discussed here: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206370 << this makes sense.
16:56 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 18:34:53; mod6: but now I'm scared that even if i /do/ remove them by hand, they might get accidentially pruned by a downstream patch (later in time) causing the makefile to puke.
17:00 mod6 <+mod6> so... yah, a bash script or removal by hand. would be fine i'd think. but now i gotta test it a bit harder. if we leave empty directories in there, im worred that patch might come along at a later time and be helpful again, removing those object output diretories. << so if i do remove them by hand, have to ensure that these empty dirs wont get nuked later on accident
17:03 assbot [HAVELOCK] [BTR] 980 @ 0.00111 = 1.0878 BTC
17:07 ag3nt_zer0 !rate phf 1 helpful
17:07 assbot Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/6cbe5193f62deee9
17:09 punkman mod6, nuke the empty dirs, have the build script or makefile create them when it needs them?
17:10 mod6 sure there are other options. nothing quite as simple as "just blow away the .gitignore files"
17:11 mod6 s/simple/clean/
17:11 asciilifeform in other nyooz, 64 connections on s.nsa node - a new record
17:11 mod6 cool!
17:11 asciilifeform we will need more, more of these.
17:12 asciilifeform and a peer discrimination mechanism.
17:12 asciilifeform (something notably absent atm)
17:12 decimation asciilifeform: https://www.newscientist.com/article/dn11907-superconducting-power-line-to-shore-up-new-york-grid < you might have found superconducting electric lines
17:12 assbot Superconducting power line to shore up New York grid - New Scientist ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kf8igD )
17:12 asciilifeform decimation: nah. these were telco holes
17:12 decimation low noise amps is a possibility
17:13 decimation every rf guy knows noise = k*temp*bandwidth
17:13 asciilifeform http://gothamist.com/2008/01/31/nitrogen_tanks.php
↖
17:13 assbot New York's Nitrogen Tanks: Gothamist ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kf8nkx )
17:14 decimation it's odd that they would use nitrogen instead of dry air machine
17:14 decimation maybe they need high pressure or something
17:16 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41350 @ 0.00057956 = 23.9648 BTC [+] {4}
17:16 asciilifeform decimation: cheap, in the short term
17:17 asciilifeform not to mention that dry air machine is a large, central thing, and needs intact ducts
17:17 asciilifeform (the latter are, possibly, no longer there, since the flood)
17:17 decimation yeah, also this google 'answer' http://answers.google.com/answers/threadview?id=309530
17:17 assbot Google Answers: Liquid nitrogen into sewers - why? ... ( http://bit.ly/1Opzt7k )
17:17 decimation "
17:17 decimation "Re: liquid nitrogen...
17:17 decimation Con Ed in New York City puts 160 L dewars on the street and uses the
17:17 decimation cold gas to cool transformer vaults in the summer. The Dewars sit on
17:17 decimation the street all over Manhattan."
17:19 decimation http://www.popsci.com/those-nitrogen-canisters-nyc-streets-are-keeping-your-internet-cables-cool "“We’ve done a lot of work to get these off the street,” Johnson said. “It’s a big expense. This is not our business.” Just refilling the tank costs about $100, Diachok said, which they have to do every day to every three days. Right now in the city, Verizon has 54 tanks at 28 sites, and that number goes up in the winter when t
17:19 assbot Page Unavailable ... ( http://bit.ly/1OpzFTO )
17:20 decimation yeah apparently they also use the expansion of the gas to cool the lines next to hot steam, etc
17:21 asciilifeform collapse bandages.
17:21 decimation heh yeah pretty much. 'oh we installed shit on top of shit, what kind of bandaids can we use to keep the mess running rather than investing in fixing the problem?'
17:22 decimation it's not unlike the ddos/spam problem mentioned earlier - each entity sees the street and sewer vaults as a zone to stuff shit for 'free'
17:23 decimation 'tragedy of the commons'
17:31 ben_vulpes mod6: re gitkeeps do we even know why those empty dirs are necessary for a succesful compile?
↖
17:32 ben_vulpes i've been able to get on the computer for maybe 10 minutes max at a stretch over the past few days, or i'd take a crack at it myself and figure it out
17:33 phf ben_vulpes: because makefile.unix expects them, (search for obj/nogui/%.o: %.cpp, etc.)
17:33 ben_vulpes asciilifeform, punkman, panzers et al
17:33 ben_vulpes so instead of duct taping the thing together perhaps fix the makefile?
17:33 phf it's totally a makefile.unix artifact, since building with cmake/clang works without them
17:33 phf yes please
17:33 ben_vulpes p plz
17:34 ben_vulpes phf later i'll want to pick your brain about compiling boost under clang/os x
17:34 ben_vulpes but you know
17:34 ben_vulpes snorkels and family call
17:34 phf priorities!
17:35 ben_vulpes i am clearly not elite enough to set my own priorities, otherwise i'd be down on the beach with a margarita and my laptop
17:35 ben_vulpes OH WELL
17:35 * ben_vulpes off again
17:36 decimation boost compiles fine with macports
17:36 jurov beach+laptop=onoes
17:36 decimation but macports appears to want to use clang
17:38 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21298 @ 0.00058075 = 12.3688 BTC [+]
17:43 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47400 @ 0.00055534 = 26.3231 BTC [-] {2}
17:46 decimation http://www.thelocal.es/20150716/night-drone-mystery-at-spains-royal-palace " The privacy of Spain’s royal family is being invaded by unmanned aircraft which are using the cover of darkness to venture into airspace above King Felipe’s residence."
17:46 assbot Night drone mystery at Spanish royal palace - The Local ... ( http://bit.ly/1IcNww3 )
17:47 decimation ^ typical solution to 'tragedy of the commons' problem
17:47 decimation or rather this: " Spain’s Ministry of Defence is said to be interested in introducing measures that will prevent drones flying in high-security zones following initiatives in London and Paris."
17:51 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10127 @ 0.00055476 = 5.6181 BTC [-]
17:51 punkman decimation: lol "measures"
18:04 mod6 <+phf> ben_vulpes: because makefile.unix expects them, (search for obj/nogui/%.o: %.cpp, etc.) << ben_vulpes yeah this stuff
↖
18:05 mod6 <+asciilifeform> we will need more, more of these. << indeed
18:11 decimation lol related to the earlier discussions about anti-confederates & anti-nazis: http://www.thelocal.es/20150706/madrid-mayor-to-rid-city-of-franco " Manuela Carmena, the new left-wing mayor of Madrid, is set to get rid of all street signs bearing references to the late dictator Francisco Franco, replacing them with the names of illustrious women and local heroes."
18:11 assbot Madrid mayor to rid city of dictator Franco - The Local ... ( http://bit.ly/1SvXg5U )
18:25 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15000 @ 0.00058075 = 8.7113 BTC [+]
18:28 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 93350 @ 0.00055475 = 51.7859 BTC [-] {2}
18:41 decimation !up _flow_
18:43 decimation 8~
18:58 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20704 @ 0.00058075 = 12.0238 BTC [+]
19:00 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26309 @ 0.00058098 = 15.285 BTC [+] {3}
19:03 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27565 @ 0.00058239 = 16.0536 BTC [+] {2}
19:04 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1871 @ 0.00058339 = 1.0915 BTC [+]
~ 22 minutes ~
19:26 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14547 @ 0.00056253 = 8.1831 BTC [-] {3}
19:27 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69203 @ 0.00055148 = 38.1641 BTC [-] {2}
~ 30 minutes ~
19:58 mod6 i've tried this thing 48 ways from sunday. context diff, unified, truncated files, removed files with/without -E smh
20:00 decimation http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-09-2014#822058 < and often a 'populist' megalomaniac
20:00 assbot Logged on 07-09-2014 20:39:31; decimation: no, but my point is that destroying the structure of power typically empowers some megalomaniac to step in and fix things
20:00 decimation I was thinking about this for awhile today, and about what would have happened if hitler had stopped with poland and consolidated power
20:02 decimation it's pretty likely we would have germany+us+ussr today, or at least they would have been a 'triumvirate' during the cold war
20:02 decimation mod6: did you try removing that line from the makefile.unix that reference the empty dir?
20:03 mod6 there's a bunch of lines that reference it actually, and no, i was hoping to get rid of these barnacles without having to change other files.
20:05 decimation I suspect you are gonna need a shell script, like ascii suggested.
20:05 mircea_popescu decimation dubiuous one could have "consolidated". that's what the soviet union tried. it collapsed. that's what the eu tried. it's collapsing.
20:05 mod6 yeah. well, i think i'll just prune by hand if I do at all. like i was saying earlier, im a bit paranoid now that some script might later accidentially remove the dirs if they're rendered empty.
20:06 mircea_popescu once the war machine stops, all the fringe cocksuckers congeal.
20:06 mircea_popescu the only way poland was worth holding for germany is if they were going into the ukraine. and ukraine in turn, going to moscow. etc.
20:06 mod6 gonna have to test prune by hand, and then test and ensure that these empty dirs will persist indifiniately.
20:06 mircea_popescu otherwise, on their own merits, nobody wants to hold the lands of orcs.
20:06 mod6 *indefiniately
20:06 mircea_popescu indefinitely ?
20:07 mod6 yah that :]
20:07 mircea_popescu :)
20:07 decimation mircea_popescu: alright, perhaps the sudetenland (sorry jurov)
20:07 mod6 don't challenge me to a spelling contest, i'll lose.
20:07 mircea_popescu so a slightly larger germany. still no different from the previous situation.
20:08 mircea_popescu as hitler correctly figured out (and plainly said so) , the only future of germany as a nation lay in the destruiction of britain as an empire.
20:08 decimation yeah, but the main point is that hitler was a populist dictator who actually delievered on his promises to a great degree
20:08 mircea_popescu this turned out to be more expensive than originally thought, but it was done neverthjeless.
20:08 mircea_popescu mno. the notion that hitler was populist is akin to the notion that obama is democratic.
20:08 mircea_popescu sure, the turdmeisters in charge of the herd sell it thus.
20:08 mircea_popescu they'd sell it any other way, makes no difference.
20:09 mircea_popescu they put butter in blue or red or yellow packaging according to what the focus group says. you think butter is "red" ? butter is butter.
20:09 mircea_popescu nobody yet stopped to consider "the real color of butter" for packaging purposes afaik,
20:10 decimation all that might be true, but the nazi platform appeared to mostly be "give to the people all the things" (minus jews, foreigners, etc)
20:10 mircea_popescu you can quote chapter and verse for this notion or are merely relying on what us agitprop and clueless derps like that mcdowell woman in that eddie murphy movie told you ?
20:11 decimation umm, our discussion about this a few nights ago? http://www.contravex.com/2015/07/17/turns-out-you-wanted-hitler-after-all/
20:11 assbot Turns out you wanted Hitler after all. | Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski ... ( http://bit.ly/1fgZ1XL )
20:11 mircea_popescu (great film btw, murphy is the heir to the throne of zamunda, pursues some ugly nigglet in queens. who doesn't like him because he's rich, and to their assheads at the time in the 80s this is a flaw)_
20:11 decimation "7. We demand that the State shall make it its primary duty to provide a livelihood for its citizens. If it should prove impossible to feed the entire population, foreign nationals (non-citizens) must be deported from the Reich."
20:11 decimation "9. All citizens shall have equal rights and duties."
20:11 mircea_popescu still a stretch neh ?
20:12 decimation "
20:12 decimation 13. We demand the nationalization of all businesses which have been formed into corporations (trusts).
20:12 decimation 14. We demand profit-sharing in large industrial enterprises.
20:13 decimation what about hitler is 'against populism'?
20:13 mircea_popescu fuhrerprinzip, for one.
20:13 mircea_popescu i don't recall any sort of voting being held on when to attack, soviet style.
20:14 mircea_popescu not that the guy is pointedly "against populism", admitting for the sake of argument that tyhe concept even holds meaning outside of its proper reference (it is after all a notion of democracy). but then again the bar for "not being x" is not "being patently against x"
20:15 mircea_popescu ("you don't love me anymore" "sure i do" "prove it" "fuck you.")
20:16 mircea_popescu s/fuck you/you made the statement, you prove it/ for any unschooled gals in the audience.
20:16 decimation it's a fair point, he probably didn't believe it in his heart of hearts
20:16 mircea_popescu he didn't act in a supportive manner throughout.
20:17 decimation at any rate, my original point is that it would have been interesting to see german v. the world in an economic war rather than military
20:18 decimation after all, britian capitulated rather quickly to us demands for it to 'decolonize'
20:18 mircea_popescu specifically re 13 : if isis submits a bid to buy out raytheon, this proposal will not go to the shareholders. it will go to a so called "anti trust regulator" or w/e, which will reject it.
20:18 mircea_popescu this is not populism, this is plain old nationalism.
20:19 mircea_popescu only because germany was feigning death at the time.
20:19 mircea_popescu and because exhausted by a decade of war etc
20:19 mircea_popescu otherwise, see orwell : london in 1930 was entering its second decade of pretending ww1 never happenbed anmd "britannia forever"
20:20 decimation yes that's true, also see this http://www.arnoldkling.com/blog/what-im-re-reading-2/
20:20 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1fgZR6T )
20:23 mircea_popescu anyway, zee germans have gained a very petty habit of being miserable to the people they owe gratitude to. no hitler statues, put that kohl fellow in jail...
20:23 mircea_popescu then they sprout cheeky teenagers with "nordic system" delusions. won't fill the void.
20:24 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206406 << dun be hatin' on ma control panels!
20:24 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:09:25; decimation: also, I don't know what the 'web 2.0' thing he posted a picture of is? is that some kind of dns control panel?
20:25 decimation hehe jurov explained it
20:25 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206415 << gotta get teh ips somehow neh.
20:25 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:16:30; decimation: the amusing thing to me is that the 'ddos cannon' is using dns
20:25 decimation yeah, and your 'gambit' confirmed that they do strictly this
20:25 decimation which is valuable to know
20:25 mircea_popescu many things valuable.
20:25 mircea_popescu nuked the parody site rightr off the net, but wh stands.
20:26 mircea_popescu i think they spent a coupla million real dollars on that gateway
20:26 mircea_popescu god only knows what the bill actually was.
20:26 decimation which one? the akamai host you linked?
20:26 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206424 << he has a point there.
20:26 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:25:34; jurov: and routers verifying sigs for 1e6 packets/sec , rly?
20:27 mircea_popescu decimation is 23.45.18.92 akamai ?
20:27 mircea_popescu heh so it is.
20:27 decimation 92.18.45.23.in-addr.arpa. 300INPTRa23-45-18-92.deploy.static.akamaitechnologies.com.
20:27 mircea_popescu well that makes sense then. i was impressed originally.
20:27 decimation which is why it didn't go down, they did spend $x mil, possibly $bil
20:27 mircea_popescu anyway, all this is (as you prolly expect it from shit i do) very much experimental. trying to actually make a site where users can safely use their ips.
20:28 mircea_popescu kinda informative attempt.
20:28 decimation https://blog.cloudflare.com/a-brief-anycast-primer/ < cloudflare describes how they do it
20:28 assbot A Brief Primer on Anycast ... ( http://bit.ly/1fh0oG0 )
20:28 decimation they carefully craft routing tables with all their peers so that they can have multiple hosts with the same ip
20:28 mircea_popescu "But fresh data show that top schools are turning out black and Hispanic graduates with tech degrees at rates significantly higher than they are being hired by leading tech firms.
20:28 mircea_popescu Last year, black students took home 4.1 percent of the bachelor’s degrees in computer science"
20:28 mircea_popescu you gotta be shitting me.
20:29 mircea_popescu they took 4% last year and are in the workforce at 2% ?
20:29 mircea_popescu this is OVERREPRESENTED.
20:29 decimation heh
20:29 decimation not to the shakedown artists
20:29 mircea_popescu whole fucking country is by now the United Republic of Blackmail.
20:30 decimation except, nobody seems to blackmail microsoft for pumping out shit
20:30 mircea_popescu anwyay, the notion that google hires derps with degrees is news to me. i thought nobody got to finish his degree because hired in 3rd year.
↖
20:30 decimation maybe in their young and dumb days, but now they are legendary for their pickiness
20:31 decimation all of the testing amounts to 'unofficial iq tests', as far as I can tell
20:31 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206433 << you're not gonna have "hdtv" on your thing. not that i mind. i wish they stopped making movies over 700mb. you REALLY do not need more than that for an hour of whatever
20:31 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:26:46; asciilifeform: SIGNATURE IN EVERY MOTHERFUCKING PACKET
20:31 mircea_popescu decimation this was the pickiness.
20:31 mircea_popescu "can't afford to not hire this guy now and have him hired by someone later".
20:32 mircea_popescu sort-of like nobody hires 21 yo athletes as entry level.
20:32 decimation heh now the 'movie industry' is going to 4k (3840 x 2160) 3D - in hopes they can hold off piracy, would be my guess
20:32 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206443 << crypto is moving bits.
20:32 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:28:54; jurov: of course, but cisco just moves bits and does not do crypto
20:33 mircea_popescu more like in hopes that social relevancy is tied to "technological advancement".
20:33 mircea_popescu except there is such a thing as spurious detail.
20:33 trinque see: 4k porn
20:33 decimation indeed. my experience is not enhanced by watching the individual whiskars on gandolf's beard
20:33 mircea_popescu moving from asciiart tits to 500kb gifs was a great reason to ditch the diskette and put in a cdrom
20:34 mircea_popescu moving from 2mb gifs to 600mb .avis was a great reason to ditch the cdrom get a dvd
20:34 decimation in fact, there's a point where it hits an 'uncanny valley' and you realize it's all a set with fake shit everywhere
20:34 mircea_popescu but past that... who the fuck cares.
↖
20:34 mircea_popescu yup.
20:34 trinque asciilifeform: got elephant working with postgresql, wasn't too bad
20:34 trinque barfed on berkdb so I skipped it
20:34 decimation which is why 24 fps in a dark room worked for 100 years
20:36 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206472 << not that much bw, just shitty packets.
20:36 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:35:33; jurov: dear decimation these ddoses have tens or hundreds gigabits... and not with 1500 byt packets
20:36 decimation very few providers in the world could even measure 100 gbs ddos
20:36 mircea_popescu 1Mpps has been seen, so... yeah routing over wot will not be a trivial problem. but it does have a trivial solution :
20:36 mircea_popescu only route for peers in your own network.
20:37 mircea_popescu this will make "most of the web" inaccessible to "most people", but only if we measure "most" linearily.
20:37 decimation note that this kinda implies you are building your own network, not using some else's ip routing
20:37 mircea_popescu otherwise, all the web that matters will be visible to all the people who matter.
20:37 mircea_popescu decimation just auto-drop any packets coming from unknown host.
20:38 mircea_popescu you know those hops in the traceroute ? well... the assumption is that they'll just take a packet.
20:38 mircea_popescu this needn't be true.
20:38 mircea_popescu exactly how it works here : we have a public slut (ie, gribble) who will convey a message to anyone, and who can trivially be silenced. otherwise, suppose unknown asks you to convey message to me. well ? why would you.
20:38 decimation yeah I get it
20:38 decimation but how do I plug into this network?
20:38 decimation I doubt comcast will peer directly
20:39 mircea_popescu if you need to ask we do not want to see you.
20:40 mircea_popescu it could trivially work on existing infrastructure really. the ability to ddos only exists on some ports and in some circumstances as it is, because that's what the derps use.
20:40 decimation that was kinda my point about the 'charging per route'
20:40 mircea_popescu server that rejects requests on 80 etc is way harder all of a sudden
20:40 decimation you pay 10 satoshi, get 1e6 packets
20:40 mircea_popescu you don't even need to charge per se. just, PEER. as in, actually.
20:40 mircea_popescu none of this bs "every one walking is my peer".
20:40 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3439 @ 0.00055141 = 1.8963 BTC [-] {2}
20:40 decimation yeah but that still implies physical connection
20:41 mircea_popescu why ?
20:41 decimation someone is gonna have to be in the middle, who may or may not route packets at their pleasure
20:41 mircea_popescu you discard what they route anyway.
20:41 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39323 @ 0.00058395 = 22.9627 BTC [+] {2}
20:42 decimation yes but what if two wot members are peered through several untrusted hosts?
20:42 mircea_popescu what if ?
20:42 decimation the 'untrusted' routers implictly veto packet routing
20:42 decimation or have the power to do so anyway
20:42 mircea_popescu you drop all traffic except port 1337 and check sigs for that so as to only forward stuff to your own peers that they accept.
20:43 mircea_popescu i dun see how they do anything. either they maintain compliance with tcp/ip spec as is, in which case they do nothing
20:43 mircea_popescu or they break it, in which case they kill themselves but we still don't care (for the same reason original internet was robuts - rerouting)
20:43 decimation or, they choose to null route only your stuff
20:43 mircea_popescu that is like suicide for them
20:43 mircea_popescu go ahead, i deeply care.
20:44 decimation how you gonna send anything then?
20:44 mircea_popescu what's next, power rangers will hurt the bitrcoin foundation by not releasing further crap ?
20:44 trinque point would be to define your own network layer, then have multiple transports over which it may be routed
20:44 mircea_popescu this notion that infrastructure has power is ludicrous.
20:44 mircea_popescu you seriously proposing the internet just goes away ?
↖
20:44 trinque as said the existing internet does very much the same thing
20:44 ben_vulpes <decimation> boost compiles fine with macports << i'm a homebrew dood. perhaps this is wrong?
20:44 decimation isn't that exactly what 'ddos protection' and 'spam protect' do?
20:44 mircea_popescu not as far as i see it.
20:44 decimation ben_vulpes: homebrew seemed lame, but I haven't used it much
20:45 ben_vulpes decimation: do you use macports regularly?
20:45 decimation mircea_popescu: okay, suppose your favorite isp null routes your packets (kills your contract)
20:45 mircea_popescu but the very basic "all plaintext email is spam, throw it out" rule would do that.
20:45 decimation who are you gonna use now?
20:45 mircea_popescu im going to sue them, because we have a contract.
20:45 decimation ben_vulpes: yeah I've used it for years now
20:45 mircea_popescu which they have to execute.
20:45 decimation yeah it's a fair point
20:45 decimation if you are in a datacenter you might get this level of service
20:46 mircea_popescu and if they refuse to sign a contract, im going to sue them for refusing to sign a contract, which thewy actually have to do being a de facto monopoluy
20:46 mircea_popescu and if they aren't, im going to use the competition.
20:46 mircea_popescu and so on.
20:46 decimation sure, in most non-orc places alternatives exist
20:46 mircea_popescu there is no requirement the us must remain connected.
20:46 trinque I really don't think not having a b-a satellite network should preclude getting started on gossipd
20:46 trinque heh
20:46 trinque just build it such that it'll work on that too
20:47 mircea_popescu considering what sats cost these days...
20:47 decimation ben_vulpes: I tried to compile the 1.55.0 boost on macports and it didn't work
20:47 trinque well hell, if you're buying :D
20:47 decimation it does compile 1.58 with clang though
20:47 decimation for some reason the final link didn't work with bitcoind, gonna do some more research
20:48 ben_vulpes i suppose that i'm pretty dumb for just downloading the source and expecting that i'll be able to compile it, huh?
20:48 decimation mircea_popescu: sats are getting cheaper, but doing a 'multipoint sat constellation' is still going to be $$$$$
20:48 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206499 << pretty much.
20:48 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:43:32; phf: it's more fidonet with crypto handshakes
20:48 ben_vulpes ;;seen artifexd
20:48 gribble artifexd was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 12 weeks, 4 days, 2 hours, 32 minutes, and 0 seconds ago: <artifexd> I'm comfortable calling it a review. Not just of what it is but what it was and how it got to where it is.
20:48 decimation ^ and a small leo 'store-and-forward' would be cheap
20:48 decimation ben_vulpes: like the stator source?
20:49 decimation I tried that, didn't work on 10.6.8
20:49 mircea_popescu decimation mp's law! when i was born, the first satellite had just cost a fortune. by the time i had my first threesome, they were doing consumer phone via satellite. as i made my self billion, fucing romania launched a satellite on a shoestring budget.
20:49 mircea_popescu before i die i'm going to be farting satellites.
↖
20:49 decimation well, there's a whole movement of 'get space to the people'
20:49 ben_vulpes i thought up an http-auth thing recently: http request headers containing a signed hash of one of the last 2 blocks
20:50 ben_vulpes (signed by a customer or allowed user or someone the service provider likes)
20:50 mircea_popescu why signed ?
20:50 mircea_popescu so like the most ellaborate nonce ever ?
20:50 ben_vulpes vulnerable to a bit of replay
20:50 ben_vulpes mwell point is to gate access to an api without relying on tls
20:50 ben_vulpes or broadcasting credentials in the clear ala http-basic auth
20:51 mircea_popescu http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-07-2015#1206513 << i didn't pour that spec in concrete.
20:51 assbot Logged on 19-07-2015 19:46:27; asciilifeform: again, it wasn't in mircea_popescu's spec
20:51 asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1206831 << mno. that's 'dotcom boom' sop. today - no one without 'straight a' marks is considered, etc.
20:51 assbot Logged on 20-07-2015 00:30:21; mircea_popescu: anwyay, the notion that google hires derps with degrees is news to me. i thought nobody got to finish his degree because hired in 3rd year.
20:51 mircea_popescu asciilifeform but they've also stopped doing anything
20:51 mircea_popescu when's the last time google had a product ?
20:51 trinque I thought they only killed ones they purchased
20:52 ben_vulpes oh get real asciilifeform google facebook and amazon were all chasing my dumb ass at one point and i never had good grades and definitely never finished kawledge
↖
20:52 mircea_popescu they're still living off fucking google ads. which work about as good as an ant blowjob. since then, endless string of failures, briefcase, glass, g+ you name it
20:52 mircea_popescu the mark cubanization of google.
20:52 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: let us not forget "Inbox" or w/e
20:52 trinque ben_vulpes: isn't that something they purchased?
20:52 mircea_popescu actually briefcase was yahoo i guess, the "media company"
20:52 decimation asciilifeform: tonight for dinner I had 'riga' sprat and rye bread (berliner broet)
20:53 mircea_popescu o hey, delicious.
20:53 ben_vulpes no, apple purchased the only decent mail application for ios to preserve their mailnopoly
20:53 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes ios mail still sucks.
20:53 trinque ben_vulpes: http://www.theverge.com/2012/7/20/3172222/google-buys-sparrow-mail
20:53 assbot Google buys Sparrow, current apps will not get any new features | The Verge ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdaDs6 )
20:53 trinque could've been descended from that.
20:53 ben_vulpes because while they can mandate webkit as browser they cannot
20:53 decimation ios mail won't 'push' from gmail servers
20:53 ben_vulpes oh hey it was google
20:53 ben_vulpes my b
20:54 trinque there were a few, apple might've too
20:54 ben_vulpes heh yeah that's right
20:54 trinque dropbox bought "mailbox"
20:54 ben_vulpes my read at the time was "google is raping apple's mail experience"
20:54 ben_vulpes ^^ mircea_popescu
20:54 ben_vulpes i know ios mail is bad.
20:54 decimation yeah, still are apparently
20:54 ben_vulpes i use the gmail application.
20:54 decimation and everyone uses gmail because spam
20:55 decimation it's a 'baptists and bootleggers' situation
20:55 mircea_popescu i don't use gmail and don't have a spam problem. but hey.
20:55 ben_vulpes it, unlike Mail™, sort of works.
20:55 ben_vulpes the touchscreen however is an unredeemable text input device.
20:55 mircea_popescu ^
20:55 ben_vulpes because text is not simply an 'input' problem.
20:55 mircea_popescu "srsly, where's the macro on this thing" "the what ?"
20:55 asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1206934 << one of those things that cannot continue. useful orbits are already very crowded (mainly with garbage.)
20:55 assbot Logged on 20-07-2015 00:49:30; mircea_popescu: before i die i'm going to be farting satellites.
20:55 ben_vulpes but more precisely a 'transformation' thing.
20:56 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: i will build the garbage scows.
20:56 mircea_popescu asciilifeform kinda why space war is inevitable. i see no problem shooting everything else out of orbit to fart my own
20:56 ben_vulpes there are a million ways to pull debris out of orbit.
↖
20:56 ben_vulpes cloud of water
20:56 mircea_popescu oh srsly, oprah can not be broacast anymore now ? bwahahaha mkayt.
20:56 ben_vulpes (for one)
20:56 asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1206950 << you clearly did not actually go to the arse chaser and ask for a job
20:56 assbot Logged on 20-07-2015 00:52:11; ben_vulpes: oh get real asciilifeform google facebook and amazon were all chasing my dumb ass at one point and i never had good grades and definitely never finished kawledge
20:56 ben_vulpes Fe shrapnel
20:57 asciilifeform they chase everyone with a pulse
20:57 asciilifeform hire - the brahmins
20:57 decimation to me the solution to spam is "pay me to read your email in bitcoin"
20:57 trinque just don't accept every soiled napkin as mail
20:57 trinque and done
20:57 ben_vulpes b-a mailservers when
20:57 asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1206988 << go, pull
20:57 assbot Logged on 20-07-2015 00:56:25; ben_vulpes: there are a million ways to pull debris out of orbit.
20:57 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes what did you think dpaste was.
20:58 decimation the stuff below a few hundred km is okay, because it is 'swept' by atmosphere
20:58 ben_vulpes ad hoc bug ridden implementation of half of smtp
20:58 asciilifeform uncle al's orbit-sweeper shotgun is only a matter of time.
20:58 decimation but you need some method of keeping orbit to maintain
20:58 mircea_popescu seems great to me. what's the problem with it ?
20:58 trinque so. seriously. what's the story with artifexd ?
20:58 ben_vulpes trinque: don't bite off gossipd man
20:58 mircea_popescu ;;seen artifexd
20:58 gribble artifexd was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 12 weeks, 4 days, 2 hours, 42 minutes, and 10 seconds ago: <artifexd> I'm comfortable calling it a review. Not just of what it is but what it was and how it got to where it is.
20:59 mircea_popescu trinque guy seemed to be seriously working on it, was gonna say something in a coupla weeks a quarter ago.
20:59 ben_vulpes ;;later tell artifexd yo!
20:59 gribble The operation succeeded.
20:59 asciilifeform this is probably where i confess that ~my~ gossipd is nearly done...
20:59 trinque maybe he is, would just like to hear
20:59 trinque asciilifeform: !!
20:59 ben_vulpes he of many hands
20:59 mircea_popescu but yes, gossipd is the huge sort of project that looks like it'd benefit from a few failure reports from failed attempts before we seriously have a shot.
20:59 asciilifeform hey i started before you folks got hot & bothered
20:59 trinque ben_vulpes: no kidding right?
20:59 mircea_popescu not just because of stuff like the above asciilifeform comment, but also because well... huge.
21:00 ben_vulpes trinque: i think he actually has employees
21:00 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes maybe HE is the one with slavegirls.
21:00 asciilifeform l0lz
21:00 ben_vulpes aha yes actually this makes sense
21:00 ben_vulpes 'pet' has read knr
21:01 mircea_popescu prolly has 588 of them, all the same height, wearing the same mask
21:01 decimation asciilifeform: when buying from the german baker, I commented how my coworkers mock my sprat eating habits. her reply "always with the chicken this, chicken that"
21:01 mircea_popescu bwahaha
21:01 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: that vacuum-packed babe was p lulzy
21:01 asciilifeform decimation reminds me, i gotta resprat
21:01 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: attended another costco today
↖
21:01 decimation 'riga' is definitely smokey, I like it, but 'king oskar' is good too (unsmoked)
21:01 mircea_popescu http://38.media.tumblr.com/c021a1191d8153f73ba1b27bcd9fb28c/tumblr_n5xmsiNmjE1tulo74o5_400.gif << competence and ridiculously infantile tits.
21:01 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdbCbZ )
21:01 ben_vulpes did not get ID'd
21:02 * asciilifeform checks larder, notices a full clip of sprats. pet must have bought a bunch
21:02 ben_vulpes i think everyone can smell your perma-lsd-trip.
21:02 decimation it is weird how most usians are biased against fish in a tin
21:02 asciilifeform decimation: i've yet to locate a supplier for unsmoked
21:02 decimation or fish in general
21:02 trinque decimation: I'll eat it
21:02 trinque happen to like sardines
21:02 asciilifeform decimation: in usa, 'fish in tin' typically means cheap tuna, and one notch above what is fed to cat
21:02 asciilifeform (if that)
21:03 asciilifeform to the point where ru immigrants sometimes are found to have lived on 'cat feed' for months
21:03 mircea_popescu !up DanielBTC
21:03 ben_vulpes (anyways, if anyone cares to poke holes in my proposed ghetto wot httpauthentication mechanism, plz do)
21:03 asciilifeform without being even slightly aware of what it was for
21:03 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i'm still snarfing up the log
21:03 asciilifeform was out, swimming
21:03 decimation asciilifeform: these are usually available in the us (safeway?) http://www.kingoscar.com/products-by-market/usa/usa-sardines/brisling-sardines-in-olive-oil-5.html
21:03 assbot brisling sardines in olive oil » KING OSCAR – THE BEST SEAFOOD IN THE WORLD ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdbMQl )
21:03 ben_vulpes and i snorkeling!
21:03 decimation they sell them as 'brisling sardines' but they are sprat - I am certain of this
21:04 mircea_popescu uh
21:04 mircea_popescu the sprat IS a sardine. that's what they're called in english.
21:04 asciilifeform apparently not quite
21:04 decimation it turns out there's many kinds of 'sardine'
21:04 asciilifeform 'sardine' is a dish
21:04 asciilifeform can be made from more than one animal
21:04 mircea_popescu sprattus sprattus. that's what it is, the brisling
21:05 decimation yes exactly
21:05 decimation but they are sold as sardines in the us because they haven't heard of 'sprat'
21:05 mircea_popescu no dood, sardine is a fish lol
21:05 mircea_popescu you mean sardine' with an accent ?
21:05 asciilifeform a dozen species
21:05 asciilifeform are sold as 'sardine'
21:05 mircea_popescu well sure.
21:05 asciilifeform sprattus is one.
21:06 decimation it's actually almost impossible to tell exactly what kind of fish you are eating in the us
21:06 decimation and from whence it comes
21:06 asciilifeform at some point it will be possible to tell - with a geiger.
21:06 mircea_popescu asciilifeform btw, did we ever discuss what zacusca ended up in romanian ?
21:06 ben_vulpes one of the nicer things about hawaii is the plentify ahi
21:06 ben_vulpes plentiful*
21:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: закуска ?
21:07 mircea_popescu ya.
21:07 decimation yeah hawaii has the best sushi I've eaten
21:07 decimation especially in honolulu where they cater to rich japanese
21:07 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: original ru is, roughly, 'snack you eat when boozing it up'
21:07 asciilifeform and in ro, i presume, means something other ?
21:07 mircea_popescu yes. in romanian is this very specific, traditionally canned vegetable paste
21:07 PeterL So I've been thinking about the mempool: There should be a size limit set in the config for mempool, along with the minFee. Each txn gets scored based on age of coins, amount in txn, size of txn, and fee, etc, once the size limit is reached if a txn does not meet the lowest ranking it is ignored, if it does then the lowest ranked txn is ejected to make space, and every once in a while the oldest and highest ranking txns in the mempool are rebroa
21:07 PeterL to make sure they get included eventually in a block
21:07 mircea_popescu mostly red pepper and baked eggplant
21:07 mircea_popescu o hallo peterl
21:08 decimation for spreading on bread/crackersA?
21:08 PeterL hi
21:08 mircea_popescu decimation quite.
21:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: oh ha, we call that dish икра (as in 'caviar', yes, same word)
21:08 mircea_popescu icre, of course, are hanbot's least favourite romanian food.
21:08 mircea_popescu particularly "icre de crap"
21:08 asciilifeform l0l
21:08 mircea_popescu which yes is a thing.
21:09 ben_vulpes PeterL: you missed the thread where alf pointed out that 'mempool' is not a part of bitcoin.
21:09 mircea_popescu PeterL you know your thinking is a nearly exact restatement of what i said last week ?
21:09 asciilifeform PeterL: mircea_popescu had a scheme quite like the one you described
21:09 asciilifeform ^
21:09 ben_vulpes heh
21:09 PeterL oh, must have missed it
21:10 PeterL but what is bitcoin without transactions?
21:10 asciilifeform it is more or less the obvious solution to 'how to keep a public tx pool'
21:10 asciilifeform PeterL: more than one way to get tx from originator to miner
21:10 mircea_popescu granted, i claim no ownersheep.
21:10 ben_vulpes sync and serve mechanisms are vastly more important.
21:10 trinque or more generally stated... "markets work"
21:10 mircea_popescu just thought the guy may enjoy the notion ?D
21:10 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53400 @ 0.00056171 = 29.9953 BTC [-] {2}
21:10 asciilifeform PeterL: can be carried - directly. via pigeon. sailboat.
21:10 mircea_popescu dude stop confusing can and will be. alf can pick up prostitutes in buenos aires, too.
21:10 asciilifeform mempool is by far the weakest link in the chain we have today
21:10 PeterL yeah, but it makes sense to have -some- relay built into reference version
21:10 mircea_popescu via a sailboat.
21:11 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: "can" lol
21:11 PeterL with my scheme, just set the max-size to 0 and it turns the mempool off
21:11 asciilifeform mircea_popescu has it. sorta like i asked my father, as a small boy, if furniture could speak. answer 'yes, in principle'
21:11 mircea_popescu lol
21:12 mircea_popescu did i ever recount the joke about practice and theory ?
21:12 asciilifeform hm ?
21:12 asciilifeform (what i meant earlier was that tx only needs to get to the destination - miner. if it cannot get there cheaply and easily, it will get there expensively and painfully. but it will get there.)
21:12 mircea_popescu after reading b-a log for the first time, little gavin schmuckssen went to his father
21:12 ben_vulpes http://cnsnews.com/blog/melanie-hunter/pregnant-wnba-star-asks-20k-month-spousal-support-her-wife << ahahaha child support hits the gays
21:12 assbot Pregnant WNBA Star Asks for $20K a Month Spousal Support from Her Wife | CNS News ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdcWLL )
21:12 mircea_popescu "daddy, daddy, i heard these mean kids use two unknown words. theory and practice. do you know what is the difference ?"
21:13 mircea_popescu old man schmuckssen calls over his wife. "honey, there's an arab prince at the door, wants to fuck you silly for a million bucks. what should i say to him ?"
21:13 mircea_popescu "well... uhh... i'd never... you know we're behind on the mortgage and that nsa check is late..."
21:13 mircea_popescu old man schmuckssen calls over his daughter
21:14 mircea_popescu "listen dear, the arab prince has a friend. would you..."
21:14 mircea_popescu YES ! YES!!! she cuts him off
21:14 mircea_popescu "see gavin, in theory we're millionaires.
21:14 mircea_popescu in practice, we're stuck with a coupla whores."
21:14 asciilifeform !b 17
21:14 assbot Last 17 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/21TCSAR.txt )
21:14 ben_vulpes <trinque> asciilifeform: got elephant working with postgresql, wasn't too bad << share!
21:15 trinque ben_vulpes: took some very minimal notes, may share when I feel like I know what I'm doing
21:15 asciilifeform ben_vulpes et al: must warn that abstractions don't actually work. that is, the underlying limitations of your db will 'leak out'.
21:15 asciilifeform that is, updates - dog-slow, for example
21:15 trinque yeah, I expect this
21:15 asciilifeform you may get more of 'this' than you expected.
21:16 asciilifeform but otherwise the thing worx.
21:16 trinque this is an experiment to see whether I can transplant my standard patterns of db use to lisp
21:16 mircea_popescu and to round off that joke, i guess : http://41.media.tumblr.com/b9ef786cc8939eb428859b4018f9eade/tumblr_n1q1hy0e411syt00ao1_1280.jpg
21:16 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Iddql2 )
21:17 asciilifeform trinque: so long as you were not expecting to transplant patterns of lisp to db use - you will be reasonably happy with 'elephant'
21:17 mircea_popescu if not that, what is he expecting
21:17 mircea_popescu using packages starting with the letter "e" ?
21:18 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: background for thread: 'elephant' is this thing that tries to magick away the fact that db exists, by allowing you to mark an arbitrary lisp data structure as 'persistent' and churning it to db behind the scenes
21:19 mircea_popescu right.
21:19 asciilifeform that is, an attempt to simulate 'proper computer' in this specific way.
21:19 trinque I'll admit I got a bit uncomfortable seeing a keyvalue table
21:20 trinque author must've been shy on altering schema
21:20 asciilifeform author was trying to keep dbisms to a minimum.
21:21 * asciilifeform fucking loathes db and everything connected with the notion
21:21 trinque runs directly contarary to your idea of knowing the cost of an operation
21:21 trinque that "table" could be 100 views deep
21:21 asciilifeform not only
21:22 asciilifeform it is a malignancy - in every way, from forcing me to touch and think about turdlangs, to being chock-full of opaque mechanisms and slow as fuck at its fastest
21:22 asciilifeform and folks come to think that it excuses them from knowing jack shit about data structures and choosing right one for a job
21:22 BingoBoingo <decimation> it's actually almost impossible to tell exactly what kind of fish you are eating in the us << Catching own fish is possible
21:24 PeterL The river running through my town has a "don't eat the fish" rule because of some toxic spill upstream from 20 years ago
21:24 trinque asciilifeform: reasoning with sets and their relationships is why I use the db heavily in work
21:24 trinque I have an inkling of being able to do the same thing in lisp, but you know, grew up in the congo, working on it
21:25 ben_vulpes trinque: have you started reading the statice manual?
21:25 asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1207034 << ben_vulpes is a recent convert to 'costco' ?
21:25 assbot Logged on 20-07-2015 01:01:54; ben_vulpes: asciilifeform: attended another costco today
21:26 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: statice may or may not make sense without access to the live animal
21:26 BingoBoingo PeterL: Recently had some "sour crude" leak from a pipe upstream of our reservoir
21:26 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: attended with family who are cult members
21:26 ben_vulpes they were not id'd either
21:26 asciilifeform ah
21:26 ben_vulpes i am however considering a conversion
21:26 trinque ben_vulpes: I have not
21:27 asciilifeform it's roughly a hundy, iirc
21:27 asciilifeform gives you a pass, and one for the woman
21:27 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: re statice, what parts wouldn't make sense? the thing is explained in painstaking detail.
21:27 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: only need one - for the woman
21:27 asciilifeform l0l
21:28 ben_vulpes trinque: go, read. a marvel of technical writing.
21:28 trinque neat
21:28 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: the symbolics books are a marvel of writing.
21:28 ben_vulpes such as i have not seen in my career to date.
21:28 ben_vulpes asciilifeform: i may yet end up with a set because of this reason.
21:28 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: they were, iirc, the first hyperlinked manual (one was expected to read them on the machine - but it came with a paper set!)
21:28 asciilifeform i have the paper
21:28 ben_vulpes the covers are also gorgeous.
21:28 asciilifeform it takes up most of a shelf
21:29 asciilifeform was given to me, for phree, even
21:29 asciilifeform by a phriend.
21:29 asciilifeform gave me his 'alpha', too
21:33 trinque asciilifeform: hm I already see your point, maybe, re: data structures
21:33 trinque I get a tree, in a database!
21:33 trinque you know, without parent_id and "with recursive"
21:34 trinque I've done horrible things working with trees in SQL
21:34 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: http://www.loper-os.org/pub/smbxman.jpg << all but the blue (interlisp, xerox) and orange ('chinanual', for the original mit lisp mach)
21:34 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdfABo )
21:34 trinque so now I'm going to grow to like this, and then I'm going to be stuck later wondering why something I've done is slow
21:36 asciilifeform on the real machine, you could actually execute the examples in the docs browser.
21:37 trinque !up gabriel_laddel
21:37 asciilifeform somebody buy gabriel_laddel a new modem ?
21:37 trinque !up gabriel_laddel
21:37 trinque bueller?
21:38 trinque lol
21:39 ben_vulpes he just got a job writing common lisp
21:39 ben_vulpes fuck him
21:40 ben_vulpes can buy his own damn modem
21:41 gabriel_laddel trinque: lol
21:41 gabriel_laddel trinque: does elephant allow you to redefine classes without restarting?
21:42 gabriel_laddel manardb does everything but that...
21:42 ben_vulpes whoa
21:42 ben_vulpes manardb
21:42 gabriel_laddel supposedly it's fast
21:43 trinque gabriel_laddel: no idea yet; began just now
21:43 trinque lemme see
21:43 decimation ben_vulpes: http://cryto.net/~joepie91/blog/2015/07/19/why-you-should-never-ever-ever-use-mongodb/ < some mongodb hate, made me think of you
21:43 trinque nosql is a fucking sham
21:44 trinque not that sql's great, but every "db" in that whole wave of shit can be forgotten
21:44 asciilifeform ^
21:44 * ben_vulpes twitches
21:44 ben_vulpes that's triggering decimation
21:44 ben_vulpes plz no bully
21:44 asciilifeform and it is also an interesting case study: what kinds of brokenness produce these waves of 'kids who tried their best' (tm)
21:44 asciilifeform like 'mongo'
21:45 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: lemme guess, you're stuck maintaining one of those things ?
21:46 ben_vulpes was at one time
21:46 ben_vulpes client blew their budget on ie8 css compatibility in a half-assed single page js app
21:46 decimation from my own meatwot, the 'benefit' to mongo is that it can scale, because it 'runs twitter' or some shit
21:46 ben_vulpes dude runs whatever
21:46 ben_vulpes this is always a lie
21:47 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2466 @ 0.00058422 = 1.4407 BTC [+]
21:47 ben_vulpes some engineer somewhere in some corp decides to play with it for a week, people who wrote dumbthing get email of concern from said engineer, decide to advertise as "running bigcorp"
21:48 trinque "JS and JSON, therefore ..." << is the process of "design" that shat all this
21:49 decimation lul apparently mongo is 'most popular' http://db-engines.com/en/ranking/document+store
21:49 assbot DB-Engines Ranking - popularity ranking of document stores ... ( http://bit.ly/1Idh7am )
21:49 decimation ^ run moar winblows
21:49 ben_vulpes dafuq
21:49 ben_vulpes is
21:49 ben_vulpes a document store
21:49 ben_vulpes you assholes are winding me up deliberately.
21:49 asciilifeform i can usually tell from talking to a fella who programs - for three minutes - whether he's 'seen the elephant'
21:50 * ben_vulpes has maybe touched the penile bit
21:50 asciilifeform which is to say, in this case, whether he has already had the flash of realization that the shit he is working with sucks because of 'anthropic principle' - that is, if it weren't a crock of shit, he would not have his job...
↖
21:50 decimation asciilifeform: my experience is that much of this kind of thing is only learned by 'tried, fucked me'
21:50 trinque asciilifeform: obligatory reference to fake stroustrup interview
21:50 trinque decimation: yes, I did once choose couchdb when I was 22
21:50 trinque ass still smarts
21:51 decimation actually I did go through the slides on that stroustrup talk
21:51 gabriel_laddel trinque: I met the guy who wrote that. Ugh.
21:51 asciilifeform naggum had a thing re: 'job-creating systems'
21:51 trinque gabriel_laddel: did you punch him in the dick?
21:51 decimation the most amusing bit to me was his little diatribe against garbage collectors
21:51 gabriel_laddel trinque: haha no
21:52 gabriel_laddel me: "lisp makes meta-programming trivial" him: "if it did they'd rule the world already, and therefore I don't have to consider your argument"
21:53 ben_vulpes this is why i don't talk to programmers i don't know about programming.
21:53 asciilifeform 'if yer so smart why aitcha rich'
21:53 asciilifeform (tm) (r)
21:54 decimation stroustrop appears to 'hate' garbage collection because (correctly) hardware fucks him
21:54 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27683 @ 0.00058511 = 16.1976 BTC [+] {2}
21:54 decimation this apparently means 'no garbage collection' not 'no shit hardware'
21:54 asciilifeform he takes the hardware as a given
21:54 trinque he doesn't hate the world enough to say it should change
21:54 gabriel_laddel ;; seen Xemist
21:54 gribble I have not seen Xemist.
21:54 ben_vulpes http://ccl.clozure.com/irc-logs/lisp/2010-10/lisp-2010.10.29.txt << grep for MREMAP
21:54 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqdQDE )
21:55 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 67670 @ 0.00058535 = 39.6106 BTC [+] {2}
21:55 gabriel_laddel ben_vulpes: wtf why are you grepping for that.
21:55 gabriel_laddel does manardb not work out of the box?
21:57 ben_vulpes no sir it does not appear to
21:57 ben_vulpes Symbol "MREMAP" not found in the OSICAT-POSIX package.
21:58 decimation http://www.slideshare.net/curryon/bjarne-stroustrupwhatifanythinghavewelearnedfromc < his talk does show the marks of one bruised by reality
21:58 assbot What – if anything – have we learned from C++? by Bjarne Stroustrup @… ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqeaT9 )
21:58 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 66500 @ 0.00057912 = 38.5115 BTC [-] {2}
21:58 gabriel_laddel ben_vulpes: You can "man mremap"?
21:59 ben_vulpes watch this be an os x problem
21:59 ben_vulpes "No manual entry for mremap"
21:59 ben_vulpes hyuuuuuuu
21:59 asciilifeform didn't ben_vulpes get hold of an actual computer at some point recently ?
22:00 gabriel_laddel OSICAT is a unix bindings library, download/build that program, it'll CFFI some stuff and kosher.
22:01 gabriel_laddel ftr, when using manardb you'll have to force it to init on reboot by creating a junk mmap'ed class.
22:02 asciilifeform ~retch~
22:02 ben_vulpes even on macos?
22:02 gabriel_laddel https://github.com/gabriel-laddel/masamune/blob/master/init.lisp#L31
22:02 assbot masamune/init.lisp at master · gabriel-laddel/masamune · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqeEsp )
22:02 gabriel_laddel ben_vulpes: lolidk prolly
22:02 gabriel_laddel I'm just leaving this in the logs on the off chance someone decides to play around with it.
22:02 ben_vulpes DUDE
22:02 ben_vulpes why can't i have software that works.
22:03 * gabriel_laddel is working on it, but money, time, lazy etc.
22:03 ben_vulpes i feel like herr popescu with apache and his caching layer
22:03 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: because you haven't hardware that works.
22:03 asciilifeform otherwise - could write it.
22:04 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel, for instance, probably believes that he has 'hardware that works.' just as i did, in 2008
22:04 asciilifeform he does not.
22:04 ben_vulpes okay well trinque gabriel_laddel i give up on this lisp persistence thing
22:04 ben_vulpes i'm writing raw sql in my cl going forward
22:04 asciilifeform after he learns that he doesn't, he will probably come to believe that it can be emulated on hardware which almost works.
22:04 trinque there are a hundred large pieces of software already out in the wild begging to be ripped open by something new
22:05 asciilifeform as i did in 2009.
22:05 asciilifeform it cannot.
22:05 trinque old crufty industries that are not interesting to those trying to advance the art of computer science.
22:05 trinque go kill a few of those and fund your computer
22:05 gabriel_laddel haha, I believe no such thing, but I have to deliver "working" (for some value of that word) software to clients irrespective of how hardware behaves.
22:05 gabriel_laddel trinque: bingo!
22:05 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: 'for some value of the word' - you can go do, on microshit, in visual basic, sure.
22:05 asciilifeform i was speaking of ~actually fucking works~
22:05 asciilifeform like the brooklyn bridge works
22:05 gabriel_laddel Or I could use CL, PCLOS, retain my sanity.
22:06 asciilifeform like a colt '45 works
22:07 decimation for example, you can make a syscall and all possible outcomes are foreseen
22:10 gabriel_laddel wat
22:13 decimation if you cannot predict the outcome of a request of the hardware, how can you possibly 'fix it' in software?
22:13 asciilifeform http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3103356827666810@naggum.no.html << obligatory re: cpp
22:13 assbot Re: is CLOS reall OO? - Naggum cll archive ... ( http://bit.ly/1IdjH0i )
22:15 phf my favorite way to do lisp persistence is to just keep everything in memory and do ext:save-lisp from a that does minor amount of saved image management. i learned the trick from avi bryant back when he was writing interesting code
22:15 asciilifeform decimation: hardware can also make certain operations impractically unreliable (e.g., persistence across power toggles) or impractically slow (e.g., all-pointers-are-typed-pointers as on lispm will never happen on x86)
22:15 phf *from a thread
22:15 asciilifeform 'save-lisp-and-die'
22:15 phf yes, but without the instance dying part
22:16 ben_vulpes slad doesn't really address the power toggle thing
22:16 asciilifeform if your working ram is 1) at least as big as your data set 2) connected to own nuke reactor, never loses power - then, great.
22:16 ben_vulpes or lisp instance crashign either, though right?
22:16 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: if your lisp crashes, something is very very wrong in your house
22:16 phf ^
22:16 ben_vulpes hey man i'm a really bad programmer
22:16 ben_vulpes this is such a bold claim!
22:16 asciilifeform i'm a terrible cook. but have never 'crashed' my kitchen yet
22:17 ben_vulpes really? i'm supposed to eat this? that lisp isntances don't crash?
22:17 asciilifeform (it is still standing)
22:17 decimation " I actually think C++ is ideal only for programmers without any ethics.
22:17 decimation you must lie, you are encouraged to declare your private stuff and keep
22:17 decimation the cards very closely to your breast, but if you need access, you just
22:17 phf i've crashed cmucl a few times, but only when i would reach into heap to access vectors directly. acl and lispworks never crash on me
22:17 decimation go ahead and change other people's class definitions. "
22:17 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: i have never succeeded in crashing sbcl, for instance
22:17 decimation lul
22:17 gabriel_laddel it is pretty easy to crash your lisp using CL-OPENGL
22:17 asciilifeform at least, not without doing ffi
22:18 asciilifeform gabriel_laddel: aha, ffi
22:18 decimation gabriel_laddel: sure, because hardware/drivers fuck you
22:18 ben_vulpes hm
22:18 ben_vulpes what about sharing data structures across many instances?
22:18 phf i think the idea here is that some data loss is way cheaper then programmer time. also memory is way cheaper then programmer time. if you have a really critical data stream, just do a write only log, that you can either replay or even just recover manually
22:19 asciilifeform phf: 'write-only log' is what, paper tape ?
22:19 ben_vulpes you're telling me that i should what...just write code?
22:19 trinque maybe means write ahead log?
22:19 phf asciilifeform: essentially
22:21 phf in my experience it's cheaper to literally go a log file and reconstruct data manually the one time your system crash, then introduce uknowable redundancies that tend to increase complexity and ultimately result in the crash, because doesn't fit in head
22:22 asciilifeform phf: go reconstruct blockchain manually.
22:22 asciilifeform this is ludicrous.
22:22 asciilifeform if it can be done manually, economically, i would not be using a fucking computer !
22:23 asciilifeform the answer is ALWAYS, without exception, fits-in-head+does-not-crash+operates-correctly.
22:23 decimation https://youtu.be/pVgM5RzWMOc?t=15s < paper tape reader
22:23 assbot Colossus - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1Oqhm12 )
22:23 asciilifeform if you have something else - you do not have the answer.
22:23 trinque wait a sec
22:23 trinque in elephant I can only "where" on one slot?
22:24 trinque I have to say so far the querying capacity of this thing looks to be on par with couchdb
22:25 phf asciilifeform: that's my answer to. the log is a contingency plan for when the lisp instance fails, which it rarely does. in which case your goal is to reconstruct the state from the time of last save-lisp (say an hour), till the point of crash
22:26 phf the loc on that is in 10s, rather then 1000s + external servers for when your first reaction is to "reach for database"
22:27 trinque I have noticed many times that when someone tries to pry the relational model from my hands, I lose behavior and am then told "you didn't actually need that behavior"
22:27 asciilifeform sop
22:27 asciilifeform https://web.cs.dal.ca/~johnston/poetry/pobble.html << obligatory!
22:27 assbot 'The Pobble Who Has No Toes' - Edward Lear ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqhXzB )
22:28 ben_vulpes i am going to spend 2 years just reading CL tooling documentation before putting anything into production at this rate.
22:28 ben_vulpes Adlai: once told me that the 'log reading' period for CL was well in excess of that for #b-a
22:28 * ben_vulpes empties his cup
22:28 ben_vulpes again
22:29 asciilifeform it is measured in years, yes
22:29 ben_vulpes what about deploying code to servers? just slime-connect to the remote host over an ssh tunnel and then compile the new codebase in?
22:29 trinque asciilifeform: so am I meant to read every damn object into memory just to filter on >1 slot?
22:29 asciilifeform can watch continents drift.
22:29 asciilifeform trinque: if you don't like this, can make own indices
22:29 trinque k
22:30 asciilifeform i don't get this thing were folks expect others to chew for them
22:30 asciilifeform wipe arse too ?
22:30 ben_vulpes zing
22:30 asciilifeform srsly, it is a bad habit imho
22:30 asciilifeform but curable!
22:30 trinque there are loads of repeating patterns in end-user data access
22:30 trinque I am not sorry I used relational as a "gun to fire today"
22:30 ben_vulpes there's a difference between chewing and a tool that abstracts a thing that needs doing
22:30 trinque I'll take a gun to fire tomorrow too
22:31 * ben_vulpes looks at postmodern again
22:31 gabriel_laddel " What I want to be able to do is this.
22:31 gabriel_laddel 1. Turn on the machine.
22:31 gabriel_laddel 2. Work.
22:31 gabriel_laddel 3. Have a bit of fun provided I've done enough of 2, which is rarely, but that's another issue.
22:31 gabriel_laddel When I say 'work', I mean I want to be able to start typing on the screen, and if I feel like putting in a drawing, I draw on the screen. Or I bring something from my scanner on to the screen, or I send something from my screen to someone else. Or I get my Mac to play the tune I've just written on the screen on a synthesiser. Or well, the list obviously is endless. And if I need any particular tool to enable me to d
22:31 gabriel_laddel o anything complicated I simply ask for it. And I mean simply. I should never have to put away the thing I'm working on unless I've actually finished it (fat chance say my publishers) or want to do something else entirely."
22:31 trinque ben_vulpes: it's fine; eats a sql string or sexp version thereof, farts list
22:31 gabriel_laddel -- http://www.douglasadams.com/dna/980707-00-a.html
22:31 assbot DNA/Frank The Vandal ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqikKE )
22:31 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51564 @ 0.00056128 = 28.9418 BTC [-]
22:32 trinque gabriel_laddel: I want to sit down and catalog everything around me according to kind and relationship
22:32 trinque then do arbitrary data analysis over it, and fast, damn it!
22:33 trinque most businesses out there (that make a profit even!) are entirely blind
22:33 trinque or they happened upon a few tools that answered enough of the essential questions that they never bothered asking more
22:33 phf ben_vulpes: re server deploy http://www.nicklevine.org/play/patching-made-easy.html, not the only solution, but pretty cool
22:33 assbot 404 Not Found ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqiBND )
22:35 trinque asciilifeform: that doesn't solve it for me either, really
22:35 trinque many user interfaces are essentially an editor for the where clause, order by, and so on for some query
22:35 trinque the conditionals involved are not necessarily known in advance
22:35 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 87068 @ 0.00056836 = 49.486 BTC [+] {3}
22:36 trinque I don't buy that you should know in advance every interesting question you might ask your data
22:36 ben_vulpes asciilifeform, phf, Adlai, gabriel_laddel: still curious about deploying CL code to running instances
↖
22:36 trinque but perhaps that doesn't follow; I dunno yet
22:36 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 124100 @ 0.00058934 = 73.1371 BTC [+] {4}
22:37 ben_vulpes thanks phf
22:37 trinque couchdb had this too
22:37 ben_vulpes wow i just remembered that gribble integration you wrote
22:37 gabriel_laddel trinque: size of the data sets you're dealing with?
22:37 trinque where an index had to be written for every "query" in advance
22:37 ben_vulpes or was it assbot...
22:38 phf ben_vulpes: it was assbot. i started on gribble, but it doesn't work as well
22:38 trinque gabriel_laddel: could be millions of rows or more; how many widgets does factory X fart out per year?
22:38 trinque what are all the classifications and distinctions involved in doing so?
22:38 trinque how many interesting relationships exist?
22:39 phf gribble returns identical strings for everyone, so there's no way to know if verify request is directed to you or someone else
22:39 gabriel_laddel Allegrocache is the only lisp solution that will work for this size dataset afaik, and I've spent a lot of time looking.
22:39 gabriel_laddel trinque:
22:39 trinque yeah, looked at that
22:40 ben_vulpes or perhaps we want to track quality ratings for *every widget produced*
22:40 ben_vulpes coviariance analysis with shop humidity at the time
22:40 ben_vulpes trains going by
22:40 trinque mhm, should be able to add classifications at will all day long
22:40 trinque and I wanna goddamn *see* the relationships
22:41 trinque or why did I build this cockpit for my business at all?
22:41 trinque so I could memorize it all and go on my gut?
22:41 gabriel_laddel lol
22:43 trinque gabriel_laddel: notably data modeling and analysis is one of the Franz offerings
22:43 trinque didn't surprise me at all
22:47 asciilifeform ben_vulpes, mod6, jurov, mircea_popescu, et al: http://imgur.com/a/ED5Nl
22:47 assbot Miracast Internals - Album on Imgur ... ( http://bit.ly/1OqkIAW )
22:47 asciilifeform (if you have one of these, and it is not obvious how to open it - use a very sharp knife.)
22:48 asciilifeform i found it interesting how the 802.11 module is anchored with just 6 solder balls - wonder what the protocol is
22:49 asciilifeform better pics than mine: http://forum.xda-developers.com/attachment.php?s=64d51233e96e8197f7ed78e398986916&attachmentid=2904114&d=1408479756 and http://forum.xda-developers.com/attachment.php?s=64d51233e96e8197f7ed78e398986916&attachmentid=2904115&d=1408479756
22:49 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Oql4HY )
22:49 assbot ... ( http://bit.ly/1Oql3ne )
22:49 asciilifeform (though his unit is not entirely the same)
22:49 cazalla http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=20-07-2015#1206849 <<< but what about getting a 2nd monitor so you can watch 2 fullscreen pornos at once
22:49 assbot Logged on 20-07-2015 00:34:13; mircea_popescu: but past that... who the fuck cares.
22:50 * trinque imagines cazalla trying to cross his eyes to look at both
22:50 trinque lol
22:54 ben_vulpes v expensive 3d solution
22:55 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51118 @ 0.00056031 = 28.6419 BTC [-] {2}
22:56 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36527 @ 0.00055158 = 20.1476 BTC [-] {2}
23:01 decimation asciilifeform: re: solder balls: unfortunately sop these days
23:01 decimation everything is lightly glued with shit solder
23:01 asciilifeform decimation: in this case it was on account of the 802.11 thing ('realtek') being a separate pcb
23:02 decimation ah yeah I see that
23:02 decimation only on the edges too
23:02 decimation well, what you expect for $12
23:02 asciilifeform the thing works
23:03 asciilifeform i cut it open in search of an obvious test point for uart
23:03 asciilifeform (did not find such)
23:03 decimation I assume that's a bga part (the cpu)
23:03 asciilifeform cpu and ram were both bga
23:03 asciilifeform radio (front), eeprom and vreg (back) - conventional
23:04 decimation sux. they must have ripped out all the debug for production cheapness
23:04 asciilifeform can read out / rewrite the rom if i had a soic16 crocodile (i presently lack one)
23:04 asciilifeform got only the familiar soic8 that everyone has
23:05 asciilifeform there may or may not be a public root exploit for these
23:05 asciilifeform but i hate to rely on these
23:05 decimation yeah, also there are probably hardware variants, according to your research
23:05 asciilifeform on account of them being 'here today, gone tomorrow'
23:05 asciilifeform (as was with 'chromecast')
23:07 decimation obviously somebody is pumping these out by the mega-boat load
23:11 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25757 @ 0.00059018 = 15.2013 BTC [+] {2}
23:12 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2743 @ 0.00059018 = 1.6189 BTC [+]
23:19 gabriel_laddel cazalla: how's the wife/child?
23:22 cazalla gabriel_laddel, good but his tantrums have kicked up a notch and he climbs everything
23:22 cazalla missus wants another but seems last months attempts didn't strike :P
23:23 gabriel_laddel "climbs everything" < good to hear he's healthy
23:25 cazalla he's pretty clever, stacked a couple pillows in order to get up on the tv unit
23:28 cazalla enjoys books too which is good but reading jack and the beanstalk for 20th time each day gets a bit much, he's really picked up with that past 1-2 months bring us books to read him
23:28 gabriel_laddel !
23:28 gabriel_laddel sounds like a smart kid, good for you.
23:29 mod6 asciilifeform: nice pics. protocol? maybe i don't get what you're asking exactly, but it says "D8027G1"
23:29 cazalla well, all parents like to think that of their kids but time will tell, i've read to him each day since he was born
23:30 trinque that's a hell of a step in the right direction
23:30 gabriel_laddel "The History of the Decline and Fall of the Roman Empire"
23:31 gabriel_laddel "The Wheel of Time"
23:31 gabriel_laddel trilema.com
23:31 gabriel_laddel maybe that last one gets pushed back a few years\
23:32 cazalla perhaps trilema when he is a bit older (side note - the story about the boy and the tree is a good one i'll read to him when a little older)
23:32 cazalla http://trilema.com/2013/a-story-of-a-boy-and-a-tree/
23:32 assbot A story of a boy and a tree on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1JaKoRZ )
23:37 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 97300 @ 0.00059067 = 57.4722 BTC [+] {3}
23:40 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36100 @ 0.00059129 = 21.3456 BTC [+] {2}
23:46 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.15099999 = 1.359 BTC [+] {2}
23:46 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 10 @ 0.15090322 = 1.509 BTC [-] {2}
23:49 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 10 @ 0.15099999 = 1.51 BTC [+] {2}
23:49 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 10 @ 0.15090322 = 1.509 BTC [-] {2}
23:51 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 7 @ 0.15099999 = 1.057 BTC [+]
23:52 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 11 @ 0.15090322 = 1.6599 BTC [-] {2}
23:54 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 11 @ 0.15099999 = 1.661 BTC [+] {2}
23:55 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 12 @ 0.15090322 = 1.8108 BTC [-] {2}
23:57 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.15099999 = 1.359 BTC [+]
23:58 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 12 @ 0.15090322 = 1.8108 BTC [-] {2}
23:59 asciilifeform ben_vulpes, mod6, jurov, mircea_popescu, et al: found the test pads on that 'miracast' thing. they were, unsurprisingly, under the sticker.
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