#trilema | 2015-07-07

http://www.occultations.org.nz/

00:00

Occultation Section - Royal Astronomical Society of New Zealand ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ti60yN )

00:00

you'll find the reduction tables for free at .mil

00:01

the point about occultations is that you can get tables of when they are supposed to occur for your area. you don't need a fancy telescope, usually cheap bionoculars would suffice for observation

00:01

find predictions for the time they are to occur and compare with your clock under test

00:03

as asciilifeform pointed out this comparison would involve some time conversions

00:03

indeed

00:03

you'll do best to learn it with out of date info

00:03

very much useless for our current problem, i must again point out

00:03

pogo needs to plug into the wall and immediately fight

00:03

!up Vexual

00:04

asciilifeform: true, but if one person can find time and verify for themselves, they can provide services for others

00:04

i cant see a solution mut mp's

00:04

even hitler can't move the moon's path

00:04

but he can diddle packets in flight

00:04

which is good enough

00:05

let the nodes confirm it

00:05

aye, signed ntp server would be needed

00:05

which gets nuked

00:05

and you're back to square one

00:05

or a large collection of them run by enthusiastic hobbyists

00:05

we have this now

00:05

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53301 @ 0.00054631 = 29.1189 BTC [+] {4}

00:05

it is worthless

00:06

the hobbyists rarely bother with pki ntp

00:06

hardcoded keys suck

00:06

it is gavinism.

00:06

as in, a symmetric pair for time transmission?

00:07

as in having keys in the box at all when it ships

00:07

of any kind

00:07

enemy captures magic private key, game over

00:07

asciilifeform: ever looked at safe stack in your professional adventures?

00:07

mats: nope

00:07

asciilifeform: agreed, which is why you would need several different keys from different providers

00:08

decimation: thing is, we don't have a network where you connect by key instead of by ip

00:08

asciilifeform: https://github.com/zrm/snow < I thought this could be it, but then saw the deps list

00:08

zrm/snow · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1ClX3At )

00:08

mats: what is interesting about it ?

00:08

"snow is a layer 3 virtual network that abstracts the underlying network and allows public keys to be used in place of IP addresses. "

00:09

decimation: looks like a cheap clone of tor-onion

00:09

snore.

00:09

astonishingly useless no matter how implemented

00:09

openssl or not

00:10

because ultimately there are servers and 'magic' ips.

00:10

just like tor dies if the directory servers are ever unplugged.

00:10

(despite pretenses to the contrary)

00:11

moves stack based buffers to another segment, then stores reference

00:11

http://dslab.epfl.ch/pubs/cpi.pdf <<

00:11

... ( http://bit.ly/1Ti6SmV )

00:11

mats: as a rule, i am entirely uninterested in 'mitigations'

↖ ↖

00:11

e.g., 'aslr'

00:11

:(

00:11

because they are expressions of surrender, of 'willing to live with' a pit of liquid shit

00:11

the thing to do with shit is to burn it.

00:12

until nothing remains.

00:12

cost is involved

00:12

not 'live with' it.

00:12

some folks gotta live with it

00:12

others wanna exploit it

00:12

mats: even the exploiting, i find, is deadly boring

00:12

the kind typically done by armies of coolies, 'fuzzing'

00:12

i have no wish to be a coolie.

00:12

or to be present anywhere at all in that supply chain.

00:14

asciilifeform: yeah 'snow' seems to try to maintain a dht across the peers

00:15

decimation: for a successful example of this, see 'kademlia'

00:15

we diverge on this point

00:15

how do you maintain such a dht without giving enemy a dictionary of ips to attack

00:15

thats the primary thing driving my interest in studying windows at all

00:15

decimation: you don't. the notion was that 'too many to hang'

00:16

otherwise i wouldn't subject myself to it

00:16

mats: the fungible coolie 0day isn't the only kind there is, you know

00:16

there is also the 'sui generis'

00:17

the kind you find by looking where literally nobody else has thought to look, perhaps even using tooling that literally no one else has.

00:17

champagnes protected

00:17

and, in the ultimate case, the kind created by somebody who was sure that it would never be looked for.

00:18

some smirking 'plum book' stuffed shirt who thinks that his ph.d. makes him a god

00:18

www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yg-RIOATCbU

00:19

and that the only opponent is 'raghead' in goatfuckistan

00:21

well, i meant exploitation is what interests me

00:21

i don't care about fuzzing at all, folks have much better tooling than i do, and i have no resources of any kind to aid me in that

00:21

aha

00:21

then have to be very particular

00:21

computing power or particularly deep knowledge of the maths theory involved

00:23

if the latter is even necessary, i have no idea

00:23

doesn't hurt to know some maths

00:23

enough to understand, e.g., 'phuctor'

00:23

^failed

00:24

basic discretes is more important

00:24

e.g., my current colleagues were very surprised when i told them about needleman-wunsch and how one can make a non-retarded binary 'diff'

00:24

this was not taught to them

00:26

other pertinent maths include the proof of why 'homomorphic obfuscator' is impossible in the general case

00:26

*

asciilifeform confesses that he did not know this proof, and, as a student, wasted a great deal of time trying to devise such a thing

00:27

and then of course there is basic crypto, but i am deliberately not mentioning it

00:27

anyone else have examples of 'maths an exploiter must know' ?

00:27

the 'byzantine generals' paper.

00:28

i was under the impression 'diff' implements a variation on 'needleman-wunsch'

00:28

lamport (same as of the 'generals') clock.

00:28

can't remember the name of the algo, though

00:28

mats: traditional diff, afaik, did not

00:28

more modern incarnations - hell knows

00:29

it would be useful to know basic algorithms and associated time estimates

00:29

well these every civilized person knows

00:29

heh

00:29

(e.g. what 'O(N)' or 'O(N^2)' means)

00:30

lol

00:30

week one computer science.

00:31

i saw funkensteins man playin, i could smell the 03

00:33

im off to eat an entire large papa johns pizza and re-read chapterhouse (dune)

00:33

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8rrOdcnFbAY <rippin up the stmostphere

00:33

have a good one

00:33

good night

00:36

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11930 @ 0.00054616 = 6.5157 BTC [-]

00:37

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32689 @ 0.00055396 = 18.1084 BTC [+] {2}

00:41

asciilifeform: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/5373714/generate-calling-graph-for-c-code < might be a working candidate

00:41

Generate calling graph for C++ code - Stack Overflow ... ( http://bit.ly/1KNH27p )

00:41

yeah linked it earlier, iirc

00:41

possibly ben_vulpes or trinque might give it a shot

00:42

yeah, gonna take makefile dicking

00:42

*

decimation to bed

00:42

other thing is, ideally the graph would be in some logical arrangement

00:42

rather than just 'what fits'

00:42

*

asciilifeform also to bed

00:43

in fact I built llvm and clang earlier today

00:43

might take a swing at it

~ 15 minutes ~

00:58

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 59109 @ 0.0005361 = 31.6883 BTC [-] {2}

~ 18 minutes ~

01:17

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 50450 @ 0.00054922 = 27.7081 BTC [+] {4}

01:24

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17514 @ 0.000553 = 9.6852 BTC [+]

01:28

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 71400 @ 0.00052548 = 37.5193 BTC [-] {4}

01:29

*

BingoBoingo rebuilding 0.7-ish client for lulzier version string

01:30

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18200 @ 0.00051599 = 9.391 BTC [-]

01:31

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31033 @ 0.00055342 = 17.1743 BTC [+] {2}

01:35

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53500 @ 0.00053942 = 28.859 BTC [-]

01:49

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14752 @ 0.00053942 = 7.9575 BTC [-]

02:01

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23500 @ 0.00054456 = 12.7972 BTC [+] {2}

~ 37 minutes ~

02:39

Vexual, no idea, i think they actually provide the space to others

02:40

!up Vexual

02:40

thats what i thought

02:41

they kinda ghosted after that

02:43

3 months free commercial rent, sublet desks at the same rate, voila

02:44

i havent read the prospectus

02:45

u say they obtained asicminer hashes in jan tho?

02:48

kakobrekla: doyou do AXJO?

02:49

zt has fury and spoonies

02:50

i read it last night.. they want 20 million to buy more miners with

02:50

thats less than dcc

02:51

i think dcc shitcanned their mining or at least onsold their capacity

02:52

yes, but they did it smooth like

02:53

i think maybe the spoonies in iceland is rented

02:53

well that is where bitcoin group claim they mine, that and china

02:53

for something like 0.5% of the hashrate

02:54

i like the model

02:55

dcc chpped hashfast

02:55

well bitcoin group lost like 250k mining so the model is really just finding people to bail em out

02:55

dunno when the lease is up

02:56

ahhh right, i dint red

02:56

http://www.businessinsider.com/russian-farmer-starts-currency-backed-by-potatoes-2015-7

02:56

Russian farmer starts currency backed by potatoes - Business Insider ... ( http://bit.ly/1JKYmez )

02:56

do they mention the office space in melb?

02:59

i like the model

02:59

yeah, that lee guy uses it as proof he has a solid reputation in the bitcoin community.. hai guyz i run a bitcoin meetup so pls gief me 20 mirrion dorrah

03:01

Vexual, see http://i.imgur.com/vvgXA0v.png

03:01

... ( http://bit.ly/1JKYJWt )

03:02

itll sell

03:02

prolly

03:03

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11904 @ 0.00055426 = 6.5979 BTC [+]

03:03

http://malagasyword.org/bins/teny2/kapok

03:04

to have been a fly on the wall

03:06

i think i mentioned the free rent

03:06

capped, can't load shit

03:06

mandarin?

03:08

fkn internets in this country..

03:08

tell me about it

03:09

we should be running more pipes

03:09

asciilifeform: i really fail to grasp for what, precisely, it is, that we need the possibility of falling difficulty. << remember Altcoin? do you prefer the possibility of 1 block per month?

↖ ↖

03:09

part 2 of that report on ndrangheta was on last night, did ya see that Vexual ?

03:10

yes

03:11

!up Vexual

03:11

i liked the general there of private enterprise

03:11

*theme

03:13

i missed the first one

03:13

but the 2nd had less vanstone

03:13

both of em were a bit beat up

03:14

some cop got shot in the head last night in melb too

03:16

so i hear, took a shot gun to the face and walked away unscatched, prob bullshit story

03:16

chase cancelled

03:18

smh carried the story of 2.2 milly paid to courts, no names

03:21

vanstone was on tell today, she looks well ruined

03:21

prob only because it was a joint 4corners/fairfax story

03:23

nothing new

03:24

bbl

03:25

i got in on that private guam pipe, that was a winner

03:26

guam?

03:26

anyway, the bandwitch was already sold

03:27

https://security.gentoo.org/glsa/201507-04

03:27

Gentoo Security ... ( http://bit.ly/1JL0QJY )

03:28

a couple nasty ones in there https://security.gentoo.org/

03:28

Gentoo Security ... ( http://bit.ly/1JL0V0j )

03:28

are those libraries widely used?

03:29

(International Components for Unicode)

03:29

firefox on my system uses it.

03:29

among other things

03:32

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajeL87l3prM

03:34

thats wildly innappropriate

03:35

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38500 @ 0.00055426 = 21.339 BTC [+]

03:38

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EzYdPMVZsRQ

03:51

"professional scholars of international relations" "30 percent of American researchers in the field say that they have a working knowledge of no language other than English, and more than half say that they rarely or never cite non-English sources in their work."

03:58

http://www.openculture.com/2014/10/when-modern-art-was-used-as-torture-during-the-spanish-civil-war.html

03:58

Modern Art Was Used As a Torture Technique in Prison Cells During the Spanish Civil War | Open Culture ... ( http://bit.ly/1dJi6kp )

03:58

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19400 @ 0.00055853 = 10.8355 BTC [+] {2}

~ 17 minutes ~

04:15

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8575 @ 0.00055895 = 4.793 BTC [+]

04:25

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190768 therealaltcoin *does* have a mechanism to scale down difficulty. plenty good does it do.

04:25

Logged on 07-07-2015 07:09:24; punkman: asciilifeform: i really fail to grasp for what, precisely, it is, that we need the possibility of falling difficulty. << remember Altcoin? do you prefer the possibility of 1 block per month?

04:27

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1190188 >> in fact, i did once negrate kako for fake "broker of the year" badges...

04:27

Logged on 06-07-2015 23:09:38; BingoBoingo: kakobrekla: Win response http://www.financemagnates.com/cryptocurrency/trading/uks-fca-issues-warning-against-bitcoin-brokers-bit4x-and-venetfx/

04:28

they aren't still there only cuz mircea_popescu mediated it

04:34

So much history

04:36

such scammer

04:38

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4526 @ 0.00054843 = 2.4822 BTC [-]

04:44

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2335 @ 0.00055897 = 1.3052 BTC [+] {2}

04:45

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23065 @ 0.00056224 = 12.9681 BTC [+]

04:48

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29527 @ 0.00056318 = 16.629 BTC [+] {2}

04:51

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190801 < nobody expects the spanish exhibition

04:51

Logged on 07-07-2015 07:58:09; punkman: http://www.openculture.com/2014/10/when-modern-art-was-used-as-torture-during-the-spanish-civil-war.html

04:53

!b 1

04:53

Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2Y6WYBS.txt )

05:01

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8295 @ 0.0005643 = 4.6809 BTC [+]

05:09

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32924 @ 0.00056697 = 18.6669 BTC [+] {2}

~ 27 minutes ~

05:37

http://blackflagbooks.tumblr.com/

05:37

Black Flag Books ... ( http://bit.ly/1dJr5SI )

05:40

http://news.yahoo.com/apnewsbreak-cosby-said-got-drugs-women-sex-212247466.html

05:40

APNewsBreak: Cosby said he got drugs to give women for sex - Yahoo News ... ( http://bit.ly/1dJrq7V )

05:40

hey hey hey

05:50

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 51300 @ 0.00054806 = 28.1155 BTC [-] {3}

~ 17 minutes ~

06:07

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 36340 @ 0.00055224 = 20.0684 BTC [+]

06:12

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13202 @ 0.00054727 = 7.2251 BTC [-]

06:24

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20797 @ 0.00056001 = 11.6465 BTC [+] {3}

06:36

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 56166 @ 0.00054614 = 30.6745 BTC [-] {2}

06:50

asciilifeform uh. the one published actually encompasses the first fork. i have other chains (also historical) that aren't wedged, but i had thought yours passed that point ?

06:52

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16375 @ 0.00053429 = 8.749 BTC [-]

06:54

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1190152 << cool!

06:54

Logged on 06-07-2015 22:18:29; TomServo: Ahoy all, just wanted to pass long: my 0.5.3 node is humming along, currently reporting blockheight 364171.

06:55

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1190161 << roflmao. "oh hello we are a cutting edge bleedin' tech company. what we do is we put tickets in cloudflare."

06:55

Logged on 06-07-2015 22:34:34; pete_dushenski: "CoinbaseAdrian 30 points an hour ago* : Sorry guys, we're looking into this. It appears to be an issue with our network provider (Cloudflare). We have an urgent ticket open with them and I'll update here with any details." << response to coinbase being offline

06:58

asciilifeform re the entire timing discussion : suppose the pogo gets started always with a realtime switch, -time=14blablabla, and after that gets its time from the most recent block it accepts and checks for next ones being within +-7200 seconds.

06:58

obviously, a kludge.

06:59

I am at height 361167 his morning. Agonizingly slow.

07:00

;;bc,stats

07:00

07:00

i beg your pardon ?

07:00

lol

07:00

Either gribble is off or I am xD

07:00

"o hai folks i'm talking from day after tomorrow. time is moving by really really too slow!!!1"

07:00

lol

07:01

gribble is stuck

07:01

,yeah

07:01

364240 is current height

07:01

i think we should have a network vote.

07:02

everyone that thinks i should have smoked cheese and salmon breakfast, make your blocks v 666

07:02

everyone that thinks i should have creme fraiche and strawberries, make your blocks v 1337

07:02

best way to end up eating pork and beans or something

07:03

https://transfer.sh/9OKMj/fwdqupu.png

07:03

... ( http://bit.ly/1H9YPA8 )

07:04

Lox and eggs for me this morning.

07:04

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190226 << the point that "bitcoin core" = unsafe at any version is really not made often enough.

07:04

Logged on 07-07-2015 00:05:07; BingoBoingo: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3cd4nd/unless_all_major_miners_begin_mining_with_fully/

07:05

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35150 @ 0.00053178 = 18.6921 BTC [-]

07:06

an' in other news, http://36.media.tumblr.com/cd2581c62617b5a509994b1e6cd4c4dd/tumblr_nbetwj6JLL1t0bn4lo1_1280.jpg

07:06

... ( http://bit.ly/1H9ZGRx )

07:06

She looks tall enough to ride this ride.

07:08

Just noticed dat tat

07:08

"Market forces will prevail and miners will have to adapt." loller.

07:08

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19800 @ 0.00053461 = 10.5853 BTC [+] {2}

07:08

i thought reddit didn't believe in "market forces".

07:09

reddit believes *they* are the market force, or so I thought.

07:09

https://blockchain.info/charts/n-transactions

07:09

Bitcoin Number Of transactions Per Day ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ha0HZy )

07:09

apparently 200l+ transactions today

07:09

*200k

07:10

yeah, basically, whenever the market forces do what they expect they're all market-force-y, and when the market forces tell them to go dangle they're all democaca-y

07:10

which is a sort of macaque.

07:10

punkman there's some derps putting in like 1mn txn for 1 btc total fees.

07:10

which has the excellent side effect of taking the piss out of all the redditard "unbanked" who were used to pay 0 fees.

07:11

So that explains the slow tx times today

07:11

been going for weeks.

07:12

does 0.0001 still get you in next block?

07:12

iirc thats what they pay.

07:12

so make it 0.00011 or something.

07:12

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190247 << quite.

07:12

Logged on 07-07-2015 00:09:17; decimation: unfortunately blockheight is only a solid concept in retrospect

07:13

might have been 0.00001 what they paid, i dun recall. look at the backlog should be obvious

07:14

I thought that the 0.1% per 1 BTC transacted was reasonable, as set out in the Declaration of Sovereignty.

07:14

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190265 << a very stupid system incidentally. mirroring the unixtime idiocy. just take the cesium, base everytrhing on that.

07:14

Logged on 07-07-2015 00:13:06; decimation: point being, someone derives time (the iers) from astronomy, sets the cesium, and broadcasts it

07:14

"I run the restaurant from 1996, its a family business. I work here with my father and my mother. We only cook traditional Greek food. We accept Bitcoin for payments. They have come 6-8 people pay with Bitcoin from Spain, France, Italy, Ireland, Luxembourg but i hope for more people with Bitcoins"

07:15

shinohai unrelated things tho. a tx is a tx, it charges by byte.

07:15

6-8 people since 2012 :D

07:15

punkman nb. name/address ?

07:15

http://www.agelos.gr/

07:15

Page Redirection ... ( http://bit.ly/1gl86Qh )

07:15

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190266 << so far the balance of what i got was "man this site is confusing" in various tongues.

07:15

Logged on 07-07-2015 00:13:16; asciilifeform: unrelated: folks competing for mircea_popescu's 1 btc prize for therealbitcoin callgraph can strike 'egypt' utility off the list. it is a worthless pile of shit, which produces worthless piles of shit (at least for cpp proggy)

07:17

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190284 << "if you need it, you'll have to write it" rule of nature stands undisturbed.

07:17

Logged on 07-07-2015 00:17:01; asciilifeform: total waste of time.

07:17

punkman you are greek?

07:17

i suppose we progressed from moore law's to this noore law.

07:17

I'm transgreek

07:17

ahahaha.

07:17

wasn't he from crete ?

07:17

which is greek in the sense etruria is latin ?

07:18

aye, Creta is nice

07:18

*

shinohai imagines punkman as a Spartan

07:19

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190307 << if it makes the svg it made the svg eh.

07:19

Logged on 07-07-2015 00:23:25; asciilifeform: because i won't be running it.

07:19

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190323 << bwahahaha who the fuck does these things.

07:19

Logged on 07-07-2015 00:27:26; asciilifeform: and unable to distinguish between functions of same name in different classes

07:19

greek islands are the best. i very much enjoyed them, perhaps mykonos the most. jurov would love it there, im sure.

07:22

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190359 << i dun get it past "ru govt stole some dude's money".

07:22

Logged on 07-07-2015 01:36:51; asciilifeform: so apparently they had to take the bank by storm.

07:23

99999 Protocol version loller

07:23

BingoBoingo https://getaddr.bitnodes.io/nodes/195.211.154.159-8333/ << lulz mebbe worth a write-up ?

07:23

195.211.154.159:8333 - Bitnodes ... ( http://bit.ly/1gl8Chj )

07:25

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190400 << nah. does not work.

07:25

Logged on 07-07-2015 02:11:39; asciilifeform: difficulty oughta have been defined in relation to the difficulty of the last solved block, solely.

07:25

the "difficulty of last solved block" does not exist

07:26

[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 473 @ 0.00408605 = 1.9327 BTC [-] {2}

07:26

in that difficulty is a statistical measure and statistics of sets of one is undefined.

07:26

difficulty target is a number

07:26

that it is.

07:27

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18700 @ 0.00053144 = 9.9379 BTC [-] {2}

07:27

for students of the bitcoin protocol actually interested in learning how it works, create a list of all block hashes, calculate implied difficulty on that basis, compare to actual difficulty at the time and calculate variance etc. nice graphs to be had.

07:30

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190423 << experimentally, i have a lot more faith in things that barely survive than in Britannia eternal. experimentally, the former do survive, the latter crash on the jagged shores of time.

07:30

Logged on 07-07-2015 02:21:03; asciilifeform: the thing barely survives today, much less ww3

07:31

mircea_popescu: too bad only the dumb&industrious students will do that. the smart&lazy just go to sipa's charts...

07:31

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190434 << the hardware belongs to miners. miners direct the hashing at pools, doing very little validation whatsoever. so, 100% of mining power does in fact not run bitcoin at all.

07:31

Logged on 07-07-2015 02:26:24; asciilifeform: thestringpuller: unless i seriously misunderstand, 50%+ of the hash rate belongs to folks ~who aren't even running bitcoin~ but a toystore version

07:31

then, of THOSE POOLS it turned out that ~50% are too confused to even lie.

07:32

they simply say things that bear an impredictable (to them first of all) relationship to reality.

07:32

Adlai this sort of smartness i'll gladly do without.

07:32

it is the smartness of the nor merely dumb, but unrescuably so.

07:34

(yes, there's a smartness of the dumb, like there's a richness of the poor and a cleanliness of the filthy and honesty of politicians and so on and so forth.)

07:34

eloquence of the mute

07:34

now that actually works.

07:35

http://btc.blockr.io/address/info/1C4Q1RvUb3bzk4aaLVgGccnSnaHYFdESzY

07:35

... ( http://bit.ly/1Ha6VbS )

07:35

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190446 << riiight. hopefully they call them service packs.

07:35

Logged on 07-07-2015 02:45:29; assbot: Why Ubuntu plans to replace traditional Linux packages with something better | PCWorld ... ( http://bit.ly/1HJqEnF )

07:35

heh

07:38

And LOL @ this address: http://btc.blockr.io/address/info/1FUCK1oBgCmbbBjxaybjbEmvkh8RCUdgBx

07:38

... ( http://bit.ly/1gl9uCo )

07:39

lmao decimation ends up putting a dime in the pot ?

07:39

shinohai imagines punkman as a Spartan << here have a cretan instead http://gallery.photo.net/photo/4849567-md.jpg

07:39

... ( http://bit.ly/1gl9Etr )

07:39

vanity address of a stressed tester

07:39

punkman: I like it, he smokes.

07:42

dunno, my txes get confirmed in first block w/o any fees. you people don't know how to curate your outputs.

07:43

kakobrekla you have old coinbases.

07:43

we're talking the problems of poorfags here.

07:43

old, big, curated etc

07:43

aham. but all the curation in the world won

07:43

't help your .5 btc you just got from coinbase.

07:45

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190542 <<==>> http://trilema.com/2014/bitcoin-in-argentina-exactly-nothing-to-do-with-the-derps/

07:45

Logged on 07-07-2015 03:38:12; mats: http://mobile.nytimes.com/2015/05/03/magazine/how-bitcoin-is-disrupting-argentinas-economy.html << news of your celebrity in .ar, bagels7

07:45

Bitcoin in Argentina : exactly nothing to do with the derps on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Ha9vyF )

07:45

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6500 @ 0.0005312 = 3.4528 BTC [-]

07:45

the "press" is on a repeater mode with that crud

07:45

it has exactly 0 reporting value.

07:47

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190599 << you have changed nothing in the scheme, just made its problems perhaps less easy to observe because hey, frantic activity with b inoculars now.

07:47

Logged on 07-07-2015 04:01:47; decimation: find predictions for the time they are to occur and compare with your clock under test

07:47

what is the difference between ntp telling you what time it is and *tp telling you what to observe ?

07:50

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190669 << there are so many of these by now, all it takes is a little phuctor scratching to send the hive crazy.

07:50

Logged on 07-07-2015 04:17:52; asciilifeform: and, in the ultimate case, the kind created by somebody who was sure that it would never be looked for.

07:51

because "people" of the pale complexion have allowed themselves to be trained in such god-awful conformity, and the space of possibilities has lain fallow for so long, to be shat into by alf's smirking plumbooker, that it's getting fucking filled.

07:51

07:51

OneRNG - Hardware Random Number Generator ... ( http://bit.ly/1glaxCo )

07:52

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190686 << i still do not approve of the proof.

07:52

Logged on 07-07-2015 04:26:43; *: asciilifeform confesses that he did not know this proof, and, as a student, wasted a great deal of time trying to devise such a thing

07:52

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190714 << i thought alphabetical the most logical tbh.

07:52

Logged on 07-07-2015 04:42:30; asciilifeform: other thing is, ideally the graph would be in some logical arrangement

07:53

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190747 << heh. buy moar pmbs!!

07:53

Logged on 07-07-2015 06:55:52; cazalla: well bitcoin group lost like 250k mining so the model is really just finding people to bail em out

07:55

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190800 << which explains why they gotta be both "professionals" and "scholars'. random schmucks not a good enough descriptor, specifically ebcause it fits so well.

07:55

Logged on 07-07-2015 07:51:18; punkman: "professional scholars of international relations" "30 percent of American researchers in the field say that they have a working knowledge of no language other than English, and more than half say that they rarely or never cite non-English sources in their work."

07:55

then stolfi wonders whether i want to be this or that title. as if a title is in any way useful or related to me.

07:55

but hey. professional scholars. all that fits in their head are names.

07:55

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12251 @ 0.00053486 = 6.5526 BTC [+]

07:56

the names of the places they'll never see. what exactly is the difference between an academitard and a housewife watching discovery channel i shall never know.

07:56

does US have translators that only speak English?

07:56

they both engage in making predictions, which are about as interesting and useful.

07:56

ahaha

07:57

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23763 @ 0.0005312 = 12.6229 BTC [-]

07:58

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190807 << actually, muh intel found the exact stuff fca derps are derping about today, soime point in 2013. kakobrekla got put through some questioning at the time, which iirc is on the public record

07:58

Logged on 07-07-2015 08:27:37; jurov: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=06-07-2015#1190188 >> in fact, i did once negrate kako for fake "broker of the year" badges...

07:58

in the end it came to exactly the same thing, not scammed anyone to anyone's knowledge, and why exactly would i put so much power in the hands of inept fiat "regulatory bodies"

07:58

it was an old article, I also posted it before I think

07:59

could be.

07:59

can't find it in the logs :(

08:01

in any case i recall f.mpif had an investment with a derivative something for a few months.

08:02

but iirc the star trader quit and the fund closed down or somesuch.

08:03

anyway, if he does the assbot thing i'm definitely going to allow selected l2 people to manage f.mpif pcs.

08:03

should be the fun of all time.

08:03

well, not really quit, but euro decided to go to shit and specifications of fund did not go along with that

08:03

why is assbot wallet needed for mpif pcs?

08:04

punkman cuz i say ?

08:05

kakobrekla a, right, volatility went up right then

08:05

i recall now.

08:05

mircea_popescu: well, sure.

08:05

there was just one possible winning move, short and dont look.

08:06

anyway, im out. bbl.

08:17

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21050 @ 0.00053486 = 11.2588 BTC [+]

~ 17 minutes ~

08:35

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23200 @ 0.00053307 = 12.3672 BTC [-]

~ 26 minutes ~

09:01

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28600 @ 0.00053591 = 15.327 BTC [+] {3}

09:05

http://descrier.co.uk/news/uk/hsbc-employees-sacked-after-staging-isis-style-mock-execution-during-team-building-exercise/

09:05

HSBC employees sacked after staging ISIS-style mock execution during team building exercise | Descrier News ... ( http://bit.ly/1JRt96I )

09:08

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22418 @ 0.0005312 = 11.9084 BTC [-]

~ 19 minutes ~

09:28

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42600 @ 0.00053854 = 22.9418 BTC [+] {3}

~ 24 minutes ~

09:52

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34356 @ 0.0005405 = 18.5694 BTC [+] {2}

09:56

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 60600 @ 0.0005312 = 32.1907 BTC [-]

10:02

nobody can take a joke anymore

10:05

?

10:06

Oh, the article you must mean

10:18

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190832 << yes. node - synced (as discussed yesterday.) wanted copy for study.

10:18

Logged on 07-07-2015 10:50:32; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform uh. the one published actually encompasses the first fork. i have other chains (also historical) that aren't wedged, but i had thought yours passed that point ?

10:19

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190838 << pogo has to work when plugged into the wall! what 'switch' ?!! and you cannot learn ~anything~ about the current time from a purported block. this is circular logic!1111 block is only valid ~if~ within 2h of current time. any backflow can and will result in enemies 'nudging' the time

10:19

Logged on 07-07-2015 10:58:01; mircea_popescu: asciilifeform re the entire timing discussion : suppose the pogo gets started always with a realtime switch, -time=14blablabla, and after that gets its time from the most recent block it accepts and checks for next ones being within +-7200 seconds.

10:19

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20200 @ 0.00053472 = 10.8013 BTC [+]

10:19

'gets its time from the most recent block it accepts' is a logical impossibility given the current algo for 'accept'

10:20

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10050 @ 0.00054057 = 5.4327 BTC [+]

10:21

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190896 << by far the most interesting thing here is that every cpp programmer needs this. and it is available from dozens of vendors, as winblowz turdware of course. because ~nobody else uses cpp~ for anything

10:21

Logged on 07-07-2015 11:17:05; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190284 << "if you need it, you'll have to write it" rule of nature stands undisturbed.

10:22

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190906 << if i can't see how it made it, and repeat the process, it is useless to me

10:22

Logged on 07-07-2015 11:19:01; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190307 << if it makes the svg it made the svg eh.

10:24

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190911 << perhaps i should explain. dude was an odious, moralizing twerp, who played the 'holier than thou' game for ages. ru law requires ministers to declare income. he declared perhaps 1% of it. nailed fair and square. and if there is some way for him to have made that dough other than straight bribery, monkeys will fly from my arse.

10:24

Logged on 07-07-2015 11:22:36; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190359 << i dun get it past "ru govt stole some dude's money".

10:25

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190921 << precisely. what i was suggesting is to monotonically move the target 'harder'.

10:25

Logged on 07-07-2015 11:26:51; punkman: difficulty target is a number

10:26

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52400 @ 0.00054525 = 28.5711 BTC [+] {3}

10:26

say, you get n blocks at a given target, and then the bit slides.

10:26

Whelp looks like I am stuck on block 363726

10:26

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190967 << see logs.

10:26

Logged on 07-07-2015 11:51:46; shinohai: http://onerng.info/

10:26

!s onerng

10:26

11 results for 'onerng' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=onerng

10:27

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190969 << i would very much like to hear why !

10:27

Logged on 07-07-2015 11:52:03; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190686 << i still do not approve of the proof.

10:27

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190971 << absolutely not. the most 'connected' node of the graph ought to live in the center of field of vision, and so forth

10:27

Logged on 07-07-2015 11:52:58; mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190714 << i thought alphabetical the most logical tbh.

10:28

asciilifeform: how do we do infinite growth on the mining side though?

10:28

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190768 << the solution is 'don't be poor.'

10:28

Logged on 07-07-2015 07:09:24; punkman: asciilifeform: i really fail to grasp for what, precisely, it is, that we need the possibility of falling difficulty. << remember Altcoin? do you prefer the possibility of 1 block per month?

10:29

punkman: for what do you need the infinite growth ?

10:29

asciilifeform: monotonically increasing difficulty

10:29

punkman: the solution, i now realize, is difficulty which ratchets based on actual mass of work

10:29

rather than time or block count

10:30

so target would move once sufficient work matches a harder target

10:30

(how to make this recurse correctly is an exercise for the reader)

10:31

as for why anyone would willingly move the target by solving a harder-than-required one - this ought to be obvious

10:31

so I use a lot of hashing power for 1 hour and then make you wait 1 month for next block?

10:31

(miners want to fuck up other miners more than they wish to do anything else, it turns out)

10:32

punkman: this works only if you are the world champion by an unreasonable margin

10:32

which is why it only happens to crackpot altcoins

10:32

where such 'champions' exist

10:33

my point here is that the time thing ~will~ have to be solved, because it is by far the most comically usg-dependent aspect of bitcoin

10:33

network time is an extremely fragile political fiction

10:33

asciilifeform: what about waiting for a few hours to observe several blocks upon pogo boot?

10:33

and to the extent bitcoind depends on it, it is broken by design.

10:34

decimation: the blocks can be 'time travelers'

10:34

transmitted just for the purpose of fucking with pogo

10:34

must understand, time is presently a criterion in whether a block is a block

10:34

wouldn't they be rejected if 2 hours away?

10:34

from what/??

10:34

we have no clock on powerup!

10:35

yes, connect to a couple of remote nodes, wait for several blocks to verify (while keeping your own clock)

10:35

say i feed your pogo the entire sequence of blocks 0,5000 with the period times. now it believes that it's 2009 ?

10:35

decimation: sybils

10:35

srsly

10:35

yes, but your sybil objection applies to all of bitcoin

10:35

not in so far as it depends on proof of work

10:35

rather than clocks

10:36

how does anyeone know they aren't being fed bullshit?

10:36

because proof of work.

10:36

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31276 @ 0.00054622 = 17.0836 BTC [+]

10:36

precisely

10:36

whereas we have no means of agreeing on the time.

10:36

do you trust your own clock on the pogo?

10:37

pogo is able to keep time, in the relative sense, similar to how msdos did (periodic interrupt)

10:37

but has no notion whatsoever of political time on power-up

10:37

asciilifeform: actually, it also happens to non-crackpot altcoins (if such a thing exists), and multipools need to take care not to mine them too hard and kill their own geese

10:37

precisely. pogo starts its own stopwatch, and starts watching for blocks to verify

10:37

https://blockchain.info/block-height/363736 <<< hmmm

10:37

Bitcoin Blocks At Height 363736 ... ( http://bit.ly/1HKcswk )

10:37

decimation: presently, by definition they cannot verify

10:37

over time, a chain is built which contains timestamps and relative timestamps from the pogo

10:37

because clock thinks it is 1969

10:38

and so genesis block is more than 2h in the future

10:38

then the pogo can average the timestamps relative to its own samples of block times

10:38

if you allow purported blocks to set your rtc, you are setting yourself up for a rewind attack

10:38

if you allow it to ever move the rtc at all!

10:38

please think about it

10:38

I agree but the enemy would have to know that this is a pogo vs. other bitcoin node

10:39

and the node feeding bullshit would be easily identified by a running bitcoind

10:39

these guys have had trouble milking the udders off their cows: https://prohashing.com/help.html#payouts-computation

10:39

i can feed you easy blocks from the past and move the average wherever i want

10:39

decimation: once we are in the position of trying to 'identify bullshit' we're lost in the sea.

10:39

the thing is supposed to be solidly automatic.

10:39

with no display, keyboard, or setup ritual

10:40

why not "reject all blocks before timestamp X" for the purpose of setting clock

10:42

the point which i am trying - and apparently failing - to make, is that the bitcoin protocol as we know it requires time to be an invariant, by which blocks are judged

10:42

and never the reverse

10:42

i didn't design the thing

10:42

but it is screamingly apparent from the design

10:42

and breaking it this way is certain to have unforeseen effects

10:42

(some of which i foresee quite clearly)

10:43

if you set the clock based on what is happening on the bitcoin network in any way, you are then in a state of sin.

10:43

(to borrow von neumann's phrase)

10:43

agreed, it is self referential

10:44

but apparently setting it with a sextant is also a terrible idea?

10:44

because needs hands

10:44

it has to plug into the wall and go!

10:44

right, so push button plus astronomer in your wot

10:44

button that does what ?

10:44

hardcoded ip ?

10:45

nope. has clock, you set

10:45

like an alarm clock ?

10:45

sure why not

10:45

pogo has no buttons and no displays.

10:45

well, that's a difficulty

10:45

you go to war with the pogo you have, not the pogo you wish you had, to borrow a bushism

10:45

i'd put an oven oscillator in there, and 50 years of lithium battery, sure

10:45

the only 'fix' in that case is a separate box that serves time, under your own control

10:45

but we haven't this option.

10:45

we haven't any additional hardware

10:46

adding so much as a shoelace to pogo would multiply the cost.

10:46

something like this chip would keep time for a long time http://www.maximintegrated.com/en/products/digital/real-time-clocks/DS3232.html

10:46

DS3232 Extremely Accurate I²C RTC with Integrated Crystal and SRAM - Maxim ... ( http://bit.ly/1HKdmsR )

10:46

there is ~no shortage~ of parts for this

10:46

we just don't have the option to use any of them.

10:47

so much as opening pogo and touching inside multiplies the cost of the operation.

10:47

incidentally, there is even an empty landing pad inside for rtc

10:47

(it was designed for one!)

10:48

but again, having this done would not only multiply the cost of the unit but add many times its cost in logistics to wherever this is done and then again to the destination.

10:49

(...and then someone has to set the fucking clocks and wrap them back in the crate? who will it be? you? me? mircea_popescu?)

10:49

i vote asciilifeform since he doesn't like leaving the house

10:50

the other thing about the whole 'let's piss on the bitcoin protocol and let blockchain move the clock' thing is that it does ~NOT~ guarantee the required accuracy!

10:50

drift by more than 2h and you're not only fucked, but will mislead others

10:50

(depending on how the clock sync is done)

10:50

this is a potentially catastrophic situation

10:51

whereas if you rely on blocks, rather than nodes, you are permitting miners to induce clockdriftforks!

10:51

which promises to be hilarious

10:52

try to remember that we are talking about deploying potentially thousands of these

10:52

the behaviour of these boxes ~actually matters~

10:52

in that extreme dysfunction could actually frag the net

10:53

in the worst case, converting them to sybils in the service of the enemy.

10:53

i do not at present know of a non-retarded solution

10:54

but it will have to come out of somebody's arse

10:54

because the only alternative is retardation

10:55

;;later tell mircea_popescu find the time to visit 'arkakao' and load up on the highest octane sugar-bomb you can! and try to conceive of a solution to this mega-conundrum

10:55

The operation succeeded.

10:56

i shall be doing the equivalent, this week

10:56

because this is a truly dire problem, it cannot be waved away.

11:02

i will leave this with one more analogy: why did marching armies use drummers, instead of having each man push the next fellow, like in a crowded train ?

11:02

letting nodes set own clocks based on what they can see on the net is rather like the train pushers.

11:03

yes, they move...

11:03

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17700 @ 0.00054868 = 9.7116 BTC [+]

11:04

for folks who are seriously working on the problem: i presently suspect that the solution will resemble some mix of 'lamport clock' and 'the firing squad problem'

11:04

so, to summarize. 1. time can't come from net because net ==== usg. 2. time can't come from any additional hw cuz cost

11:04

ntp == usg

11:05

bitcoin net == self-referential

11:05

the objections can be extended to any other protocol

11:05

can't we just use sundials or something

11:05

additional hw could be acceptable if we find somebody selling usb clocks, battery included, for a few bux

11:05

current phoundation version seems different https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/9546a977d354b2ec6cd8455538e68fe4ba343a44/src/main.cpp#L2628

11:05

bitcoin/main.cpp at 9546a977d354b2ec6cd8455538e68fe4ba343a44 · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1JRIhRu )

11:05

thestringpuller: machine with no keyboard, or display, or presumption of literate owner

11:05

I don't see local time in there

11:06

GetMedian https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/blob/ce56f5621a94dcc2159ebe57e43da727eab18e6c/src/chain.h#L232

11:06

bitcoin/chain.h at ce56f5621a94dcc2159ebe57e43da727eab18e6c · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1JRIowv )

11:06

why going to such contortions with time before the rest of proto is secured?

11:06

punkman: we already know that it is a monstrous perversion that has approximately same relation to bitcoin as american 'chocolate' does to chocolate

11:06

jurov: because ~we don't have a workable scheme~ for pogo

11:07

presently

11:07

i'm fine with ntp

11:07

i firmly believe that all of the answers proposed so far are disastrously bad

11:07

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37250 @ 0.00055025 = 20.4968 BTC [+] {2}

11:07

ntp has serious problems even aside from the central control

11:07

as a protocol

11:07

and when there's whispernet, it can do time, too

11:08

hell, n00bz to this channel get ddosed with what else if not a thousand ntp boxes !

11:08

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28573 @ 0.00055872 = 15.9643 BTC [+] {2}

11:09

jurov: i personally am not very interested in building a weapon of war which enemy can turn off, collectively, by flipping a switch

11:09

oh i forgot to add to summary 3. no maintenance

11:10

jurov: unless i am mistaken, the plan was to deploy these to the homes of cooperating civilians

11:10

for 100% unattended operation

11:10

if they're going to ddos known pogo addresses then this has no solution

11:10

don't have known addresses

11:10

or ddos mechanisms which preferentially affect pogo.

11:10

'don't be poor'

11:11

we know the basic shape of the answer, just not the particulars.

11:11

and how'd pogos masquerade? scanning and identifying btc nodes is easy

11:12

who, precisely, can ddos (in the traditional sense) 5,000 ip ?

11:12

usg?

11:12

the 'ddos' i'm concerned with is more that we are setting up a box with unique vulnerabilities

11:12

if it's 5000 residential lines, then it's easy

11:13

the civilians or their isps will stopp cooperate very quickly

11:13

jurov: if they're 5000 residential lines in usa, just send the gasenwagen, aha

11:13

this is not a mechanical problem, yes

11:13

i am concerned with 'pogos will fall like dominoes from simple and cheap nudge' rather than 'in the dark future where being a known bitcoin user merits gassing'

11:13

so, ntp is the least worry atm

11:14

(the latter is an entirely separate conversation)

11:14

ntp means that you now have a multimegabyte leprous turd on your box.

11:15

and that the thing can be taken out of commission entirely by the cheapest mitm.

11:15

btw, just today i got an offer for "small business" connection, it included ToS

11:15

jurov: neato

11:15

guess what did it say? listed allowed server services

11:15

obv. no p2p there

11:16

asciilifeform: don't even need mitm, dozens of DoS vectors in there

11:16

jurov: residential ?

11:16

and "must not disturb other users"

11:16

jurov: classic chumpatron. exists on this side of the atlantic, too

11:16

reading the code is quite discouraging

11:16

'pay double for your residential line! because you are a moron and want to show it off!'

11:16

'get nothing in return but the word 'business' !!'

11:17

and where are these mythincal civilian nonresidential lines pogo is supposed to be on?

11:17

jurov: plenty of folks lease office space. or have a non-retarded isp. etc

11:18

lol, having your employer ddoes, yet better!

11:18

i've been running public node at home for years, in the heart of mordor

11:18

never had problem.

11:18

so, stfu about ddosing then

11:18

I just pay for business class internet so no one bothers me about my activities

11:19

jurov: again, i was speaking of ddos in the sense of 'if it is trivial to take out pogo with a nudge that no one else will notice, it will be done'

11:19

rather than the classical 'ocean of shit down your pipe' sense

11:19

but ntp flood is ocean of shit

11:19

shinohai: jurov just described a 'business class' that ~will bother~

11:19

jurov: flood is not the only known past ntp vuln

11:20

T_T

11:20

what'll folks propose to put on this poor box next? 'samba' ?

11:20

ah, so you suppose someone has ntp 0day in store for us

11:20

familiar with term 'attack surface' ?

11:21

as opposed to "simple as possible, but no simpler"?

11:22

ntp is simple enough in this situation

11:22

what is the shortest known implementation ?

11:22

as in, one that jurov would be willing to read & sign

11:22

must also work on uclibc and, possibly, musl

11:22

and work without invoking dns

11:24

*

asciilifeform bbl

11:25

http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10757575/how-to-write-a-ntp-client

11:25

c - How to write a NTP client? - Stack Overflow ... ( http://bit.ly/1LQjQX7 )

11:25

so there is no way they can increase the block size

11:26

my internet is drained right now relaying blocks, I had to shut my node off

11:26

so i can stream music from my library. these people don't know what they're talking about.

11:27

heh. if you had a pogo, you'd just yank it from power

11:28

i don't see where to find 5000 ppl that would tolerate such bw hog

11:29

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38900 @ 0.00056188 = 21.8571 BTC [+] {2}

11:30

jurov: if i had a pogo i would connect it to the neighbors unsecured wifi XD

11:31

from 0.5.3 source "/// when NTP implemented, change to just nTime = GetAdjustedTime()"

11:31

:P

11:32

thestringpuller wih $10 wifi nic you can route bitcoind there right now, no?

11:35

I don't get it, why do we need to run the ntp daemon to use ntp?

11:35

just use ntpdate to set the clock once and be done

11:35

will work for a year or two

11:36

'civilian' chumper's electricity is probably not more reliable than that anyway

11:37

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40400 @ 0.00055182 = 22.2935 BTC [-]

11:37

and the 'attack surface' consists of a few packets asking for the time

11:38

jurov: yea and assuming the neighbor's wifi is setup to allow incoming connections to 8333

11:39

but the main issue is that my upstream limitations are greater restricted than downstream, so when I relay blocks and tx data esp. when mempool is getting big, it chokes me from doing anything remote (like ssh is even slow)

11:39

if you had sane router like dd-wrt or mikrotik

11:40

you could set ougoing traffic shaper

11:40

mike_c

omg - this better not turn out like the robot ping pong match: http://www.ctvnews.ca/sci-tech/giant-robots-set-to-fight-after-u-s-company-issues-video-challenge-to-japanese-rival-1.2456864

11:40

Giant robots set to fight after U.S. company issues video challenge to Japanese rival | CTV News ... ( http://bit.ly/1HdzqZu )

11:40

I can barely do 20-30kbps up without router getting constipated, at least when seeding torrents

11:41

punkman: jurov i can do up to 600kbps on torrents without seeing constipation

11:41

but bitcoind is demanding like 1mbps

11:42

which is like the upward limits set by the ISP

11:43

the idea is, if you limit the uplink yourself before isp does, you can set priority for misc traffic

11:43

yea. torrent clients (rtorrent) let you limit from within the client

11:44

i don't understand why I should have to set iptable rules

11:45

because bitcoind does not know how to limit itself

11:46

in companies where i did sysadmin, outgoing email was prone to slow everything to crawl with ADSL, and obv setting limits on everyone's email clients was impractical

11:46

after shaping and setting priorities all went fine

11:48

at the cost of slowing email delivery

11:48

'plox to make email faster'

11:50

haha yes. but most of the time it just throttled it from gobbling full 768k down to 600k, not very noticeable

~ 19 minutes ~

12:09

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/ByTeP7JCMAEEymF.jpg <<< ASSet of the day.

12:09

... ( http://bit.ly/1HKlA4a )

12:11

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 82100 @ 0.00055428 = 45.5064 BTC [+] {3}

12:20

http://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid

12:20

I'm a liberal professor, and my liberal students terrify me - Vox ... ( http://bit.ly/1J2tArT )

12:20

loled

~ 15 minutes ~

12:36

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6700 @ 0.00054838 = 3.6741 BTC [-]

12:40

"The real problem: a simplistic, unworkable, and ultimately stifling conception of social justice" << sounds about right.

12:42

lobbes

"So it's not just that students refuse to countenance uncomfortable ideas — they refuse to engage them, period. Engagement is considered unnecessary, as the immediate, emotional reactions of students contain all the analysis and judgment that sensitive issues demand." << ayup

12:42

"All the old, enlightened means of discussion and analysis —from due process to scientific method — are dismissed as being blind to emotional concerns and therefore unfairly skewed toward the interest of straight white males" << moar gold.

12:50

"I have intentionally adjusted my teaching materials as the political winds have shifted." "While I used to pride myself on getting students to question themselves and engage with difficult concepts and texts, I now hesitate. What if this hurts my evaluations and I don't get tenure?"

12:51

yeah what if you don't get tenure

12:56

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7856 @ 0.00056463 = 4.4357 BTC [+]

13:08

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=03-06-2015#1153360 << previous thread

13:08

Logged on 03-06-2015 17:58:37; ben_vulpes: (unrelated: http://www.vox.com/2015/6/3/8706323/college-professor-afraid)

13:16

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34700 @ 0.00056659 = 19.6607 BTC [+] {2}

13:25

punkman | does 0.0001 still get you in next block? << this is what deedbot- pays

13:29

asciilifeform: I got clang to fart out a graphviz dot file; so far, every tool that can eat the thing results in a horrid ball of yarn

13:29

noticed that many of the tools there are more or less the same java program

13:30

!up ascii_field

13:30

I'm not even going to share the result; just take a pen and go nuts on a piece of paper and you'll have it

13:31

trinque: the 'dot' file, does it contain something like a logical flow graph ?

13:31

in whatever format

13:32

yeah it's a directed graph; however, clang also barfed lots of unnamed nodes

13:32

Node0xd2ace8391f0

13:32

so on

13:32

then useless

13:32

yep

13:32

this is so infuriatingly basic

13:32

just want a matrix of what calls what

13:32

https://github.com/zrm/snowhttps://github.com/zrm/snow

13:32

Page not found · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1HLjHlY )

13:33

I cannot see how this tool does not exist

13:33

bleh: https://github.com/zrm/snow

13:33

zrm/snow · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1HLjFKO )

13:33

except that C++ itself foils any attempt

13:33

shinohai: see log

13:33

!s

13:33

Need a search term.

13:33

!s snow

13:33

173 results for 'snow' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=snow

13:33

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-07-2015#1190630

13:33

Logged on 07-07-2015 04:08:49; decimation: asciilifeform: https://github.com/zrm/snow < I thought this could be it, but then saw the deps list

13:33

shinohai,: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1190632

13:33

Logged on 07-07-2015 04:08:54; asciilifeform: mats: what is interesting about it ?

13:34

Hmm missed that. Interesting concept

13:34

nah

13:34

same crud as 'tor'

13:35

for same reason.

13:35

faux p2p

13:37

ascii_field: did you see the awesome glsa on icu yesterday?

13:37

https://security.gentoo.org/glsa/201507-04

13:37

Gentoo Security ... ( http://bit.ly/1JL0QJY )

13:38

notable packages linked against icu on my box include.... firefox

13:38

aha

13:38

lol and chrome has it too

13:38

trinque deedbot now has only enough for 27 blocks?

13:39

jurov: enough of a balance?

13:39

yes

13:39

there are a few other unspent outputs

13:39

it will switch to the next

13:39

oh i see

13:40

and if it gets low, feel free to throw some bitdust in the tank

13:40

should be good for a while though

13:40

I see 0.1028202 BTC

13:42

now that the de-dockerization is complete, I may have it announce its current balance along with newly uploaded deeds

13:46

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22700 @ 0.00056737 = 12.8793 BTC [+] {2}

13:46

trinque: and guess what, rebuilding all the deps of that thing would take a month+ on my box

13:47

and that's ~after~ resolving the circular dependencies

13:48

I will never mock stallman emailing himself static html ever again.

13:48

I've half considered trying to stop using the web so much, aside from maybe syncing certain sites to a local box.

13:49

it's clearly *all* irreparably fucked.

13:52

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7400 @ 0.00056658 = 4.1927 BTC [-]

13:53

.... and how much shitgnomism is rolled into the 'updated' version of 10,001 proggies that will install.

13:57

nowhere clearer than the recent 1m+ lines-changed linux release

13:58

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 58600 @ 0.00056872 = 33.327 BTC [+] {3}

13:59

at this point, any unixlike box with a graphical display may as well be running winblowz

14:06

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16600 @ 0.00056891 = 9.4439 BTC [+] {2}

14:10

!up ascii_field

14:10

everyone who ever made fun of rms deserves to be fed a litre of 'toe jam' now.

14:10

and every day.

14:12

ascii_field i know i'm fed up with random shit depending on random shit, but it's not mere stupidity. it's just them trying to make sure shit permeates everywhere.

14:12

aha

14:12

oh, openssl put out a bug ? best make sure the fucking calculator pulls it in.

14:12

http://www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/drone-fires-burgers-at-the-homeless-in-charity-viral-video-gone-wrong-10372457.html

14:12

Drone fires burgers at the homeless in charity viral video gone wrong - Americas - World - The Independent ... ( http://bit.ly/1HdQJcW )

14:12

elementary.

14:12

anyway, re the switch : let's talk it through.

14:13

*

ascii_field stands up ears

14:13

so, when you start the pogo, you provide it with the human touch, divine spark, politica time.

14:13

this, you have to do. like it or not we dunno how to abstract it away.

14:13

from there on, iut carries on by simply syncing its clock to last accepted block.

14:13

howabout at 4am on a sunday when the mains flickers ?

14:13

yes this opens it up to attack, but

14:13

you take it down and start it over with new magic touch

14:13

congrats, now pogo behaves like the clock on my stove

14:13

inconvenience is not a controlling point here.

14:13

it does yes.

14:13

except with no display !

14:14

what can we do ?

14:14

what, i'm to poll it ?

14:14

its principal function ius being polled anyway

14:14

now it is no longer a civilian box

14:14

i am sorry you can't have candy kalash.

14:14

whole point was 'here let me fuck you and plug this box into your router'

14:15

not 'learn to maintain this steam engine'

14:15

it is held together by the superficial tension of frog entails.

14:15

nevertyheless, that is a marked improvement over the current situation

14:15

i am not sure how this improves on anything

14:15

held together by the superficial tension of hemorhagic diarhea

14:15

illustrate an attack for my benefit.

14:16

isn't there supposed to be a way to send commands to the pogo? otherwise how is it useful to me as a "full node" if I can't query it for blocks/transactions and relay new ones I have created for it?

14:16

with the scheme described, you don't even need an attack

14:16

they never get off the ground at all

14:16

danielpbarron query yes, order notrly.

14:16

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22200 @ 0.00055975 = 12.4265 BTC [-] {2}

14:17

ascii_field is the things' processor freq known ?

14:17

the idea, as i understood it, was to let folks set up nodes without human committment

14:17

mircea_popescu: yes, though i've forgotten the exact number. 500MHz i think it was.

14:17

this obviously can be measured

14:17

it keeps time fine!

14:17

i said this

14:17

i mean, by siomething running on the box in question

14:17

just not when powered down!

14:17

but keeps perfect interrupt-based clock when running

14:17

at least as good as pc

14:18

this doesn't need any magic, it works on trad kernel

14:18

right now.

14:18

and you don't like having to start it by manual command because myeah.

14:18

because these are to be given to folks who will not volunteer any meat commitment

14:18

but will agree to plug in box

14:18

or so was my understanding

14:19

myeah.

14:19

and setting the time to "timestamp of the last block it actually has on disk" is going to what ?

14:19

see today's thread

14:19

plz

14:20

i have. but tell me again.

14:20

for one thing, there may not be any blocks on disk

14:20

repetition is not always a sin.

14:20

for another, it could be days, weeks, months old

14:20

but the next block it gets wouldn't be more than two hours off.

14:20

even if it is months old.

14:20

wat????

14:20

it'll be 2 hrs delta to the last known!

14:20

if last block it has is x, 5 weeks old

14:20

this is elementary

14:20

block x+1 will not be current

14:20

it will be 'from the future'

14:21

it will be 5 weeks old +- 10 minutes

14:21

because machine thinks it is '69

14:21

mno

14:21

ah if nothing on disk yes.

14:21

but we were discussing "block on disk is 5 weeks old"

14:21

and if something on disk, then perhaps it is 2009

14:21

so ?

14:21

from the cpu's pov

14:21

and any incoming block is invalid, because 'from the future'

14:21

the next block to wahtever it has on disk is not going to be too much from the future.

14:21

no.

14:21

>2h --> too far

14:21

according to the traditional bitcoin protocol.

14:21

again : if you have block x, from a year ago, when you get block x+1, the styamp on block x+1 will be, 1year ago + 10 minutes

14:21

realize, time is specified as an invariant

14:22

exactly.

14:22

mircea_popescu: if we lack a clock, we are wide open to replay attack

14:22

illustrate.

14:22

because the box has no idea what year it actually is

14:22

much less what time

14:22

even if you weasel out of this one by hardcoding block hashes, etc

14:23

just build an example wouldja.

14:23

you are still open to crafted, induced clock drift

14:23

fine, example. malicious miner starts crapping out blocks with timestamp more and more off in the future

14:23

little by little, 5000 pogos slide with it

14:23

eventually fork.

14:23

wait a second.

14:23

what % hash does this miner have ?

14:23

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4454 @ 0.0005699 = 2.5383 BTC [+]

14:23

not a proper fork

14:23

but a network split

14:24

where pogo fleet is now own parallel universe

14:24

this is a horribru example. so, miner has 10% of the hash, 10% of the bnlocks are badly timed. what of it, pogo resets on the remainder.

14:24

this isn't an attack.

14:24

resets ?

14:24

why ?

14:25

because you mined block 5, with a bad time, someone else mines 6 with a right time, pogo is now on block 6.

14:25

all it sees is 'block was broadcast, has timestamp t, average it now'

14:25

there is no 'bad time', normally there is 2hrs of 'play' in the gears

14:25

no average. set clock = timestamp of last block

14:25

all the malicious miner needs to do is keep nudging withing the allowed bounds

14:25

you've not yet constructed a credible example.

14:26

let's suppose a powered-up pogo sets clock using first block it sees

14:26

what if said block is a 'martian' block ?

14:26

last it sees on disk.

14:26

not first block it sees.

14:26

clean disk!

14:26

forget that for a moment.

14:26

let's consider the not clean disk situation

14:26

how did the disk become not empty ?

14:26

dropped by god ?

14:26

can you forget that for a moment ?

14:26

ok...

14:27

suppose it's not empty. so, pogo thinks time = last block on disk

14:27

once it accepts a further block, it resets its clock too.

14:27

because you mined block 5, with a bad time, someone else mines 6 << and it will get dropped because pogo considers delta from 5 invalid

14:27

now, this theoretically is vulnerable. but practically, can you construct the attack for me ?

14:27

^^^^

14:27

ok:

14:27

jurov 5 couldn't have been that far off and be accepted from 4.

14:27

whuy not?

14:27

next block is from hitler. it has timestamp of... yesterday.

14:28

it gets rejected

14:28

can't be next block. hitler lost.

14:28

then genuine block appears. it now appears to be 'from the future'

14:28

is rejected.

14:28

nope.

14:28

hitler's block was already rejected.

14:28

why?

14:28

because it was from yesterday.

14:28

how does node know this?

14:28

how old is the chain on disk

14:28

because when hitler block shows up, the disk has a block it ends with

14:29

doesn't matter how old that block is. the block coming after it will be ~10 minutes later.

14:29

in order for it to be rejected. the chain on disk will have to be no more than a day behind

14:29

not so.

14:29

ok, say chain is a week out of date

14:29

lemme model this maybe i'm saying it stupidly.

14:29

on what basis is hitler's block rejected ?

14:29

so, pogo has on disk last block 5, bvlock timestamp 1000

14:29

the cpu clock is currently 1969 midnight

14:29

at real timestamp 5000 pogo starts

14:29

it receives block 6, with timestamp 1010. accepts it.

14:30

it receives alt block 6, timestamp 990. it rejects it

14:30

mircea_popescu: i can see where you're going. but it still can be sunk

14:30

to answer your q : hitler's block is rejected on the basis that it's too far off from the last block pogo accepted.

14:31

well, i suppose maybe it can, but show it to me ?

14:31

hitler uses his week while your node was in the crate to re-mine the blocks from the last place you have on disk, with minimal plausible monotonically stepping time deltas

14:31

you are now four hours, say, behind the actual earth time

14:31

ok. but the expense of this is staggering.

14:31

next block appears to be from the future

14:31

yes. the only way this attack would work is with a major chain replacement investment.

14:32

only staggering if all he has is a week

14:32

i daresay this is within engineering tolerance.

14:32

if he has a year ?

14:32

even if he has a year

14:32

in a year he has to replace a million btc worth of blocks.

14:32

hitler is only half of the problem here

14:32

other half is natural drift

14:32

go on.

14:32

natural drift is a problem, yes, but you reset on each block.

14:32

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191154

14:32

Logged on 07-07-2015 15:02:31; asciilifeform: i will leave this with one more analogy: why did marching armies use drummers, instead of having each man push the next fellow, like in a crowded train ?

14:33

it is a form of dead reckoning, yes. so bad in principle.

14:33

in practice, it's mediated

14:33

so now miners get to move pogo clocks around collectively.

14:33

ie, exactly like drummers (if you think about it, drummers are EXACTLY each guy pushing the other, sound has a speed, and it pushes ears)

14:33

as if miners were not enough of an evil

14:33

they are not an evil you may divorce.

14:34

mircea_popescu: the speed of the sound of the drum is negligible in comparison to the speed at which push wave propagates through a crowd

14:34

exactly what im saying here.

14:34

unless the crowd is in a gasenwagen and behaves like a solid

14:34

natural drift and alt-chain attacks have a cost.

14:34

delay is negligible, rather

14:34

not speed

14:34

lol

14:35

just pointing out that drums were good enough for marching and not good enough for precision bomb strike

14:35

just so here.

14:35

how is the timing attack different from normal orphans?

14:35

orphans are judged on sheer blockchain length

14:36

jurov: mainly in that it affects pogos and nobody else

14:36

pogo will eventually reorganize, and reset the time back to where the for started

14:36

*fork

14:36

ascii_field anyway, mind that pogos are not intended to be THE ONLY solution to relaying. they are just supposed to be a type of solution.

14:36

so yes, the rifle regiment wouldn't survive cavalry charge from the side. alrighty then, put them on a hillltop.

14:37

thing is, i can easily see these becoming 99% of the relay mass

14:37

maybe.

14:38

it's not that i don't appreciate your intellectual purity. it's merely that things must be made as correct as possible and no correcter than that.

14:38

this terrible kludge would probably go well with jurov's

14:38

alone, either is nightmarish

14:39

but together they sorta cancel out

14:39

the only correct solution to the problems of humanity is killing all the people.

14:39

we really want to stop somewhere short of this.

14:39

anyway, not that i'm saying this must be done or anything. but i do not think it'd be the end of the world if it has to be.

14:40

so far there appear to be just these two solutions

14:40

no one else has proposed anything like a third

14:40

yes, but you didn't care much for it. usb timer dongle thinger

14:40

(anything requiring the pogo keeper to have hands and brain is not a solution)

14:40

it has the major problem of costing more money.

14:40

mircea_popescu: may as well ship a pc then!

14:40

quite.

14:41

it is not your fault, or mine, or his, that "the time" does not come engraved in the wave fucntion you know.

14:41

!up ascii_field

14:41

the time is nonsense in the first place.

14:41

that this was a constraint, i warned from day 1

14:41

and i still think that dependence on political time is a serious flaw in bitcoin proper

14:42

also there is my doubt of finding 5000 or how many ppl that won't mind pogo trampling upon their connection and likely inviting attacks

14:42

ok, how about this alternative : put a special time server on the pogo itself, have the pogo sync its time from the list of approved upstream sources.

14:42

(same list as it takes blocks from)

14:42

mircea_popescu: you realize that is exactly how the ntp nodes with which we're ddosed work

14:43

yes i realise. but at least these are our evil nodes rather than obama's evil nodes.

14:43

look, there's only so many corners to a square box.

14:43

so now we're asking for a non-retarded complete reimplementation of ntp.

14:43

i blame you.

14:43

i blame retardatoshi

14:44

anyway. the problem of time (as you rightly observe) is a larger problem than anything bitcoin solves

14:44

thus, can't really blame it for the situation.

14:44

bitcoin did not have to depend on it

14:44

yes, it did.

14:44

what's wrong with monotonic retargeting ?

14:45

didja miss the line where i said you can't have a statistical sample of one ?

14:45

no need for sample

14:45

there is no way to distinguish between a block mined at difficulty x that came out with 9 leading zeroes and a block mined at difficulty 1 that came out randomly with that many zeroes.

14:45

say, anyone who can hash faster than strictly required to win the race, ends up pushing the target towards hardness

14:45

this dies.

14:45

hm?

14:46

this dies, because you will find a random block which is 00000000000000000000000000000f and game over.

14:46

can't replicate your luck.

14:46

for so long as the 'lucky strikes' can't nudge too far

14:46

it lives

14:46

no?

14:46

wrong you are

14:46

luck can come out any way it pleases.

14:46

would be interesting to model this

14:46

go right ahead.

14:46

it is rather reminiscent of 'there is nonzero chance for you to fall through the floor'

14:46

the chance to die approaches infinity much before you even get a third halving

14:47

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19998 @ 0.0005699 = 11.3969 BTC [+]

14:47

you're basically proposing we do a "your rent is a tenth of your income or more, forever. and you play the lottery daily."

14:47

what do you do two weeks after you won the lottery ?

14:47

win it again ? with what money ?

14:48

mircea_popescu: you've described... farming!

14:48

so i have.

14:48

gotta eat every day

14:48

farming, you will notice, died out.

14:48

crop can die, if it wants

14:48

moreover, this retarded version of farming is more like, "Farming done by bacteria colony. doubles every time there's food."

14:48

ie, african farming.

14:48

the 'double' thing is negotiable, potentially

14:49

recall, we are thinking of all possible formulations

14:49

not so negotiable. anyway, you DO need the sampling, and that fucks it all up

14:49

not merely the one we use now

14:49

even so.

14:49

do not let me stand in between you and greatness. but until the day you shit out that magic, it's no magic time.

14:50

not that i seriously disagree with mircea_popescu's intuition, but it is not obviously clear to me that we're speaking of a perpetuum mobile

14:50

perhaps i will need more ice cream to work through this one

14:50

which is why i say.

14:50

go, find.

14:51

i agree, this is very much a 'go, find' rather than 'sure to be found'

14:51

let's imagine, briefly, that i ~do~ find.

14:51

then?

14:51

back at sad farm, there's really little we can do with the bitcoin as it is, other than acquiesce to the filth of human notions of time.

14:51

then maybe it's time for ada.

14:53

incidentally, the answer, if it exists to be found, probably involves what fuller might've labeled 'tensegrity'

14:53

i am maybe not the first but definitely not the last to admit when satoshi did the dumb. nevertheless, here he did no such thing. there is no alternative known to literature, and you can't fault a man for not coming up with a novel star.

14:53

where there is a 'tug of war' among top contenders for pulling difficulty up

14:53

and nobody can get too lucky

14:53

that centralizes

14:53

because it is game theoretically advantageous to have a central scheduler.

14:54

gotta have the prisoner's dilemma come out against it

14:54

that is, for defection to be +ev

14:54

not that bitcoin doesn't centralize, a little. but this is criminal.

14:54

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30009 @ 0.00057011 = 17.1084 BTC [+] {2}

14:54

not sure that can be arranged. prolly can be made to appear it was arranged, but...

14:54

could one design a system where fucking the lizards is always +ev ?

14:54

no.

14:54

this is necessarily the case, if you think about it.

14:55

not lizard unless untouchable ?

14:55

depends how you define it, but there's also the problem of "you're the lizard, bob."

14:55

you know, when the holy paladin marches into the forest to kill the unseen devils that have been upsetting the natural order of the land

14:55

oinly to discover that indeed such devils do exist. him.

14:56

methinks we're at the point here where one could actually build a mathematical thing

14:56

and play with the knobs

14:56

i think it's prolly premature

14:56

but i think we eventually will.

14:58

another suggestion: vectorize the difficulty

14:58

(presently, it is a scalar; but doesn't have to be)

14:59

you are aware of the complexity that introduces in say an attempt at mathematical provability re the entire shenanigan ?

14:59

http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/basni/20026929/902/902_320.jpg

14:59

... ( http://bit.ly/1IHqsGd )

14:59

^ anyone ~not~ know this folktale ?

14:59

"racul, broasca si o stiuca"

14:59

mircea_popescu: actually it may very well be formalizable game-theoretically

15:00

mircea_popescu: yes!!

15:00

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eI08e8UbRBU << there you go, ~ROMANIAN~ oldies.

15:00

Semnal M - Racul, broasca si o stiuca [Romanian Oldies] - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHqA8K )

15:00

*

ascii_field wonders if it was originally a ro tale

15:00

or hell knows, visigoth

15:00

i think it was eastern european folklore

15:00

prolly yidish

15:01

has the flavour, yes

15:01

anyway, took down (as folklore) by one alexandru donici in the 1800s

15:03

proof of work as hilbert space...

15:03

you know the recourse to complexity is an academic habit.

15:03

not complexity !

15:03

what we have now - ~that~ is complexity. just unexamined kind.

15:03

also true.

15:04

when you ~actually~ (vs. academitard-pretend) nail something down - that is a reduction in complexity.

15:04

but you've not nailed something down. you just hope saint hilbert may.

15:04

can't promise this 'before next tuesday'

15:04

but the possibility is there

15:04

all sorts of possibilities are here, provided you don't go into geographical details

15:04

yes, possibly i triggered somebody's allergy by mentioning a maths dude

15:05

no, we're friends with hilbert, and i don't think it's a bad idea, either.

15:05

nevertheless...

15:05

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19200 @ 0.00057071 = 10.9576 BTC [+]

15:06

mircea_popescu: this dies, because you will find a random block which is 00000000000000000000000000000f and game over. << this is incorrect. you don't infer the target from the hash. 256bit target is included in all block headers.

15:06

punkman he wants to infer the target from the hash.

15:07

punkman: we were contemplating a hypothetical clockless blockchain

15:07

where miners slowly make life harder for themselves

15:07

but not too slowly, and not too quickly

15:07

you could very easily have monotonically increasing target

15:07

and - somehow - can't collude

15:07

basically he could be in government : he's decided to externalise the cost he can't bore

15:07

punkman: no good, as pointed out earlier, because finite planet

15:07

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25708 @ 0.00055537 = 14.2775 BTC [-] {2}

15:07

and he's picked the dumbest link to do it to

15:07

wash dc is washing on you alfie.

15:07

mircea_popescu: right now we have usg clock!

15:08

what could possibly be worse

15:08

ascii_field: well yeah that was my objection, need to be able to adjust downward

15:08

chinese miners.

15:08

you remember ? locusts ?

15:08

*

ascii_field feels like he took that potion from lem's 'futurological congress', which makes one realize that he had no robot servants, just leprous wretches dressed in gabage cans clanking around as 'robots'

15:09

and they aren't sweeping the house, but shitting on the carpet

15:09

shweeping.

15:09

aha.

15:10

actually, we have an usg internet, too

15:10

the only new thing in the world is the history you didn't know, and the only thing that's worse than what we have today

15:10

is what comes tomorrow.

15:10

I didn't realize that usg owns time now too

15:10

jurov: it is at least theoretically possible to build a non-usg network

15:10

can't someone in china look at the sky?

15:10

decimation the human idea of time, yes.

15:11

but the mystery of building a non-usg and non-usg-pushable political clock remains, afaik, a mystery

15:11

don't need cesium to keep time to 2hr window

15:11

you don't appreciate the depth of this problem

15:11

^

15:11

think of time as capital, and think you're that anon president that opposed hamilton

15:12

and think "hey, my clock can keep time within two hours, how would those newfangled financial traders and hedge funds render me destitute on the cointinent my fathers conquered ?!?!?!"

15:12

adams?

15:12

mno.

15:12

jefferson.

15:12

"imperial time"

15:13

gotta revert to julian calendar?

15:13

precision is the problem

15:13

umm, okay

15:13

unless you discover a more precise clock, and keep it from the enemy, such that you can exploit his misclicks and take his women

15:13

you ain't got nottin.

15:13

well, if you only used the sun and the rotation of the earth, you would be ~60 seconds of utc (starting around 1960)

15:13

it is not coincidental that "finance" reduced to hft.

15:14

!up ascii_field

15:14

https://blog.8thlight.com/rylan-dirksen/2013/10/04/synchronization-in-a-distributed-system.html << obligatory

15:14

Synchronization in a Distributed System | 8th Light ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHrSjS )

15:14

^ state of the art for p2p ~ordering of events~ - rather than absolute time

15:14

are we worrying about relativistic bitcoin?

15:14

ordering has jack shit to do with timekeeping

15:14

i dunno why people keep mushin them together

15:14

they're like sleeping and fucking

15:14

blockchain doesn't order events based on time

15:14

"oh, happens in bed" "really ? fuck you."

15:15

mircea_popescu: almost all timekeeping is really for ordering!

15:15

including in bitcoin

15:15

doesn't matter!

15:15

why? in hft order doesn't matter?

15:16

punkman it actually DOES order events to some degree based on time.

15:16

hence rejected blocks from the future.

15:16

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191733 << the machine tried to keep folks from 'rewriting history'

15:16

Logged on 07-07-2015 19:14:54; punkman: blockchain doesn't order events based on time

15:16

jurov the way you use the cow's teat is not the alpha and omega of what the cow teat is.

15:16

sorta the whole point

15:16

lamport's achievement was to abstract out some of the attributes of timekeeping we actually ~need~

15:16

sure. but this does not reflect on timekeeping

15:16

it reflects on us.

15:16

aha

15:17

I don't see how lamport clock would help

15:17

it wouldn't.

15:17

not that virtually no one ~actually cares how many seconds it's been since midnight jan 1 1969~

15:17

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69700 @ 0.00057153 = 39.8356 BTC [+] {3}

15:17

ascii_field they don't care now in the manner they don't care about how well oiled their rifle is.

15:18

once it comes to it, they care or they go away.

15:18

just that 'oiled enough'

15:18

like the housewives, you know, "oph, i don;t care about the crisis, my husband does all that money stuff" "orly ? shut up and sit down, goose."

15:19

evidently i failed to make the minor point here

15:19

<ascii_field> so now we're asking for a non-retarded complete reimplementation of ntp. << reimplemented, can't guarentee not retarded in its own way

15:19

the 1969 thing is an arbitrary aspect of the mechanism

15:20

rather than the essential

15:20

well sure.

15:20

ascii_field: you seem to imply that you need to run ntp daemon to use ntp

15:20

to TRUST ntp

15:20

decimation: it is well known that you don't

15:20

can ask for time once, yes

15:20

but from whom?

15:20

exactly

15:20

and if you don't hear an answer ?

15:21

and how do you know the answer did not come from satanic isp ?

15:21

well, there is such a thing as signed ntp

15:21

I'm not sure how simple it would be to implement

15:21

now hitler controls your box

15:21

you know how satoshi would have solved this problem, rigth ?

15:21

don't need to only rely on the ntp reply

15:21

we already know how he solved it

15:21

nono.

15:21

by asking winblows for the time.

15:21

it can be hyptothetical until blocks start rolling in

15:21

hardcode http://whattimeitis.com in the cpp

15:21

Coming Events In Bible Prophecy ... ( http://bit.ly/1J2Lpah )

15:21

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15195 @ 0.00057196 = 8.6909 BTC [+] {2}

15:21

see, i almost guessed.

15:22

hitler cannot change the clock on the pogo

15:22

pogo can record times he observes new blocks since boot

15:22

he can if it treats his signet as ultimate authority

15:22

doesn't need to, treats as man on the street

15:22

in other news i am pleased to inform the general public that my pyromania is progressing nicely.

15:22

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33605 @ 0.00057273 = 19.2466 BTC [+] {2}

15:23

hm?

15:25

listen, can't the thing ask the local isp for time ?

15:25

hitler controls time and your isp

15:25

mircea_popescu: ???!!!?????

15:26

there is no widespread custom of isp running a time server

15:26

really ?

15:26

certainly not on this side of the ocean

15:26

they run dns but not time ?

15:26

aha

15:26

logical.

15:26

conceivably, ~somewhere~ they do

15:26

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12500 @ 0.00055558 = 6.9448 BTC [-]

15:27

last i looked into it my isp actually fed you time, on special port.

15:27

ntp is low-enough traffic that most of the planet asks usg more or less directly

15:27

off of their own atomic clock no less

15:27

and comically, without authentication of any kind

15:27

(also telco and radio provider etc)

15:27

anyone recall old thread about banks getting time from gps antennae ?

15:27

mircea_popescu: all of those could be forged by hitler

15:28

(also without authentication)

15:28

don't even need hitler there. just a kid with an sdr card

15:28

decimation intranet ? notrly.

15:28

are you being parodic ?

15:28

the banks thing really happens

15:28

I'm telling you things I"ve been told

15:29

someone, iirc, discovered that you could move the clock on most 'atm' machines this way

15:29

nobody has told me why I can't observe the position of the sun in the sky, use today's date, and reduce the time

15:29

then setup an ntp server

15:29

decimation: you can do this, and sign the result with your gossipd key, etc. sure

15:30

decimation what i said was that if you use usg-supplied cutouts for that reduction, you're just doing a roundabout ntp call. might as well ask directly

15:30

but this does not exist today.

15:30

and if it did, hitler could simply delay the packet

15:30

realize that we are talking about ~time~

15:30

as in, a printed table?

15:30

mitm can make the answer 1) verify sig correctly 2) be arbitrarily wrong

15:30

what usg cutouts?

15:30

how do you get the calibration data ?

15:31

there exist astronomy libraries like http://www.hs.uni-hamburg.de/DE/Ins/Per/Czesla/PyA/PyA/pyaslDoc/pyasl.html that could be used to make such tables

15:31

Python AstroLib — PyAstronomy 0.8.1 documentation ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHtgDe )

15:31

for your locale ?

15:32

absolutely

15:32

i do not dispute they exist. what i said, again, was that if you use a nist table you're basically querying ntp.

15:32

^^

15:32

well, yes, but the math is not very difficult to verify

15:32

yes, it is :)

15:32

because you need a clock.

15:32

verify against ~what~ ?

15:32

lol

15:32

occultations

15:32

realize that earth time is a political fiction

15:33

well, a convention, but anyway.

15:33

think of it this way

15:33

a political fiction that for the time being is tied to observable astronomic phenomenon

15:33

decimation measures the time, by observing a pulsar

15:33

(one of the most accurate timebases found in nature)

15:33

there's no "truthful" means to breach a convention by getting the REAL reality of it. just like you can't deduce a girl out of her panties.

15:33

but now he wants to ~tell mircea_popescu the time~

15:33

decimation it's "tied" in a conventional manner.

15:33

i.e. how many counts since last time mircea_popescu asked

15:33

and this is where the boojum comes in!

15:33

they are a continent apart

15:34

between, are devils

15:34

nah, they left.

15:34

who can delay the messages at will

15:34

l0l

15:34

so are we putting a pulsar on the pogo usb or what.

15:34

can be a small one off amazon.

15:34

trying to illustrate the notion of 'political time' here

15:35

I can tell him that a mutually observable passing of mercury in front of a star will be at 6pm

15:35

(assuming same hemisphere roughly)

15:35

then it rains

15:35

and one or both of you miss it.

15:35

then waht

15:35

he has a point, he ~can~ sync like that, but only provided he actually did the measurements as to which star himself.

15:35

use hitler's time until it can be verified

15:36

why not use it every day then

15:36

whole problem with bitcoin is that hitler can induce permanent damage by playing with the clock on rare occasions and in localized ways

15:37

not if you only ntp once

15:37

on powerup

15:37

yep

15:37

if only once were a thing.

15:37

then hitler knows exactly when to fuck with ntp!

15:37

when a city loses power

15:37

and then ditch hitler's time once you have synced with block chain and can use its timestamps

15:37

as mircea_popescu points out, 'once' is a many-time thing here

15:37

relative to your pogo's clock

15:37

decimation: i discussed the problem with letting blockchain affect the time, earlier

15:38

ascii_field you still don't like my, "-time=blabla" in start-up call ?

15:38

mircea_popescu: it is inapplicable for pogo

15:38

i propose to wire electrodes up on the pogo chassis and synchronize time using chosen woman's periods

15:38

lulz

15:38

^^^ winner

15:38

except, make pogo go in

15:38

fertility THAT bad in slovakia ?

15:41

l0l

15:42

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191138 << you can't actually mislead anyone

15:42

Logged on 07-07-2015 14:50:38; asciilifeform: drift by more than 2h and you're not only fucked, but will mislead others

15:42

you can't rewrite the blocks.

15:42

mircea_popescu: we were discussion a variant where nodes ask one another

15:42

the one where blocks - sure

15:42

i thought from your prev line you weren't but anywa

15:42

iirc decimation suggested one

15:43

but yes, if using block timestamps, pogos can only be mislead, cannot mislead others (unless some fool were to mine via 'getwork'-ing a pogo!)

15:44

http://www.lindy-usa.com/usb-precision-clock-20984.html << "This item has been discontinued."

15:44

USB Precision Clock ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHuaj1 )

15:44

:(

15:44

!up ascii_field

15:44

*

trinque was born just after everything cool was discontinued

15:44

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191187 << use them in various attacks he means

15:44

Logged on 07-07-2015 15:10:23; jurov: if they're going to ddos known pogo addresses then this has no solution

15:44

trinque: not only discontinued, but costs like 4+ pogos !!!

15:44

oh bah

15:44

i don't feel too good about asking people who trust me to put a box on the net that's open to flooding people.

15:44

the cost is not prohibitive

15:44

plus shipping.

15:44

how poor are people?

15:44

spend more on a heavy night drinking

15:45

trinque: please understand, for this cost you can ship a pc!

15:45

ascii_field that foolk is not so much of a fool

15:45

no need for pogo then!

15:45

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5600 @ 0.00056712 = 3.1759 BTC [+]

15:45

i was entertaining delusions of pogos being used as net propo for small home miners.

15:45

sure but then no sweet usb radio clock

15:45

trinque: the entire point is to use THE $20 BOX WE HAVE

15:45

fine fine

15:45

without turning it into a shittier version of the $150 box phoundation et al have

15:45

that any idiot can have

15:45

that also doesn't keep time./

15:46

pretty sure theirs has rtc

15:46

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191193 << me lol.

15:46

Logged on 07-07-2015 15:12:23; asciilifeform: who, precisely, can ddos (in the traditional sense) 5,000 ip ?

15:46

the 100 usd 'pc engines' board i mentioned a few weeks ago does.

15:46

i did not mean for pogo to promiscuously accept or even emit ntp packets!

15:46

what, you think 1k is a barrier ? 1mn is a barriere. maybe. 1k is not a barrier.

15:47

did not say 'barrier', necessarily, but it does raise the number of bots required

15:47

I guess I percieve the reliance on an ntp server for time as being a much smaller attack surface than relying on operating bitcoind nodes for sync

15:47

jurov i think there is at least one attack where lamer is made to think victim is ntp server

15:47

yes but that does not depend on victim

15:47

the basic, irrecoverable problem with ntp is that one can 'amplify'

15:47

that is, forge a request for the time

15:47

and get more bits back (to victim, that is) than you had to send.

15:48

you mean , pogo issues ntp requests, get million packets within seconds?

15:48

jurov i mean, pogo asks for ntp time, malicious server sayus "ask a.b.c.d" pogo asks.

15:48

jurov: worse. it'll be among those ~sending~ the replies

15:48

one thousand pogos ask.

15:49

ascii_field: it's trival to stop that

15:49

ntp is retarded fractally, on every scale

15:49

decimation: and when new bug is discovered? then?

15:49

and once again, you are talking about the daemon

15:49

i;m not a great fan either ; nevertheless i suspect it is a marginally better solution than the current best which is "just taker block".

15:49

NOT a daemon

15:49

decimation: the variant where it asks on powerup is also retarded

15:49

just a ting that issues one packet, receives one and shuts itself

15:49

for one thing : it costs us 20k to deploy 1k of these. i doubt hitler wants to ruin his ntp for 20k

15:49

because it will happily accept any answer

15:50

mircea_popescu: not to mention also ruin $1000000k commerce in the process

15:50

ntp from random selection among 1,000 ip (not dns, but ip) ntp nodes, PLUS sanity check using blockchain, could be a practical answer.

15:50

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191237 << lmao get out.

15:50

Logged on 07-07-2015 15:22:37; asciilifeform: and work without invoking dns

15:50

fuck dns

15:50

i don't want dns in there. anywhere.

15:50

you can't have ntp without windows solitaire, what world do you live on

15:50

DEPENDENCIES

15:51

all you are doing is asking some shlub for the time

15:51

pour gasoline on them.

15:51

ask 10 randomly, and if they all give nonsense then you are fucked

15:51

might as well buy a telescope and start with your navigation tables

15:51

decimation naaah, average it out

15:51

decimation: the idea is that they will all agree, because you're actually taking to room 101 at your isp

15:51

that's how france kept time up until 1990

15:51

and not any ntp servers at all

15:52

well, it's a separate question about signed ntp requests

15:52

which addresses that issue

15:52

now hitler must pwn random boxes unknown to him beforehand

15:52

the only folks willing to sign ntp (for a fee!) is us navy

15:52

decimation: he does not need to pwn random boxes! only intercept ntp on your line.

15:52

if that, you will actually talk to one bitcoind at isp, too

15:52

what now?

15:52

^ exactly

15:52

jurov: this is harder because proof-of-wortk

15:52

feeds your pogo bullshit too

15:53

a faux blockchain is considerably more of an undertaking to arrange

15:53

not if it controls everything, can make up bullshit chain with 0 difficult

15:53

decimation: is it not obvious that this is far easier to detect via mechanical means ?

15:53

it's certainly more attractive to isp than mucking with ntp

15:53

so ntp is actually emerging towards consensus here ? over alf's dead body /

15:53

mod6 you there ?

15:53

easier than noting wallclock time?

15:53

hell, folks in here were ringing the alarm on account of empty blocks

15:53

before ph0rk was apparent

15:53

yeah. haven't been able to follow for the last 45 minutes though.

15:54

I was yes

15:54

*

mod6 reads scrollback

15:54

maybe I should start watching venus too

15:54

realize, i don't have a better solution than ntp. but it has to be done sanely (no dns; builds under musl or uclibc; doesn't introduce more than a few dozen lines of code; and picks from $bigint ip on powerup; and sanity-checked from blockchain )

15:54

dozen ?

15:55

aahahahahaha

15:55

see jurov's link

15:55

no i really wish to see this

15:55

parsing ntp reply doesn't need lots of code

15:55

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191239

15:55

Logged on 07-07-2015 15:25:42; jurov: http://stackoverflow.com/questions/10757575/how-to-write-a-ntp-client

15:55

^ example

15:55

*

trinque mutters about there being low-frequency radio time signals passing through his body this moment, and cannot find a single distributor for a sane, cheap usb receiver

15:55

the fucking world we live in

15:55

trinque: I've tried too

15:55

trinque: gps has timebase. but any moron can fool it

15:56

came to the conclusion that must do self

15:56

with stronger signal

15:56

actually that's not so horrible as i thought.

15:56

what's #include <arpa/inet.h> ?

15:56

ru, us, others alll broadcast multiple signals

15:56

that's a standard socket header

15:56

decimation: yes, and the kid across the street has the strongest signal

15:56

if he wants to

15:56

for us, ru, cn

15:56

as dumb as it sounds, i thought about ICMP 13 (dispite it being often fw'd) and checking TS against default route.

15:57

how;s that get you time ?

15:57

it returns a timestamp

15:57

not all isp will even let through icmp, no ?

15:57

(often fw'd)

15:57

nobody runs standard unix services anymore

15:58

like finger or chargen

15:58

but... if it's behind a NAT< then you can control the default route

15:58

seems like a sure way to end up with wild numbers

15:58

maybe you set your router to respond to this? i dunno. was a passing thought.

15:58

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191281 << actually was on trilema. http://trilema.com/2015/so-i-found-the-libertard-motherlode/

15:58

Logged on 07-07-2015 16:20:56; mats: loled

15:58

So I found the libertard motherlode on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1TjpCCB )

15:59

mod6 i think this is related to "askl your isp"

15:59

in the best case you end up with a ntp pt

15:59

mod6: anything that requires the operator to even know that routers exist is inapplicable for pogo

16:00

<+mircea_popescu> mod6 i think this is related to "askl your isp" << yeah.

16:00

may as well ask him (her!) to set up a gentoo

16:00

o wait, that was a DIFFERENT liberal professor bitching abotu the hell of their own making

16:00

my bad mats

16:00

<+ascii_field> mod6: anything that requires the operator to even know that routers exist is inapplicable for pogo << yeah was reading what you guys were saying. basically why I didn't bring it up. too hard for mom & pop.

16:01

bad enough that this thing will need upnp

16:01

and will fail to be externally reachable at all a good chunk of the time

16:01

'this system where we take turns accusing each other of being an enemy of the revolution can come around to bite me!'

16:01

@ mircea_popescu I *think* I sent an email correctly in order to purchase some trilema credits

16:02

shinohai didja pay ?

16:02

decimation that's ok, we have a good sense of humour about it.

16:02

yet.

16:02

Was waiting on a reply email. I filled out form but was unsure if it was accepted.

16:03

not liable to get anything unless you pay.

16:03

(why would you, there's no indication it's your email)

16:03

'when the coin in the coffer rings, the soul from purgatory springs' (tm) (r)

16:04

I misunderstand then. I thought an address for deposit is emailed to you.

16:04

*

mircea_popescu looks at this thing

16:05

it's been in place for so long i forgot

16:05

[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 10 @ 0.16325969 = 1.6326 BTC [-]

16:06

folks. "hackedteam" leak is 99% downloaded, but i don't really have a place to publicly host it

16:06

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47151 @ 0.00056758 = 26.762 BTC [+] {2}

16:06

mircea_popescu ^ ?

16:06

if i'm to put it on s3, only private

16:06

not a bad test of how 'bulletproof' mircea_popescu's new fleet of boxes is ?

16:06

shinohai well yeah, you put your email in there, get an email with address. didja ?

16:07

jurov feel free to put it on your binaries acct.

16:07

perhaps untar it first

16:07

so it's browsable

16:07

^

16:07

it's untarred

16:07

not everybody wants the whole ball of shit

16:07

please DO untar it either first or there before publishing

16:07

it comes untarred, i mean

16:07

ah

16:08

aite.

16:08

jurov let me know when it's uploaded so i can mirror it.

16:08

yea, eta 20hours

16:08

lolk

16:09

*

mircea_popescu will put it online under trilema/uploads

16:09

neato!

16:10

in other news, http://41.media.tumblr.com/4b6af150ffaa49ba706d7e0acec667c0/tumblr_n84guwKh6K1t1cjcho1_1280.jpg

16:10

... ( http://bit.ly/1TjroDX )

16:11

mircea_popescu: where was your article with the boy, gurl, two frag grenades, and a length of twine ?

16:11

haha hmmm

16:11

the vectorized difficulty thing made me recall it

16:11

http://trilema.com/2013/the-twu-luv-torture/

16:11

The twu luv torture on Trilema - A blog by Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1Tjrv2m )

16:11

aha!

16:11

ty mircea_popescu

16:12

I love sdf.org, but damn their mail server is so slow.

16:12

just check there's 400G free and 190k inodes

16:12

mircea_popescu: ^

16:12

*

mircea_popescu checks

16:14

I'm currently a bit distracted. I'll re-read all of this discussion on my way back and think about it.

16:14

inodes 58M iused 374K ifree 58M

16:14

Todays crypto financial genius award goes to: http://redd.it/3cfd05

16:14

I took a loan at 25% on prosper and put it on ltc - panic attack from the price going down : litecoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHx47D )

16:14

!up ascii_field

16:14

wtf is 'prosper'

16:15

don't ask and you won't have to find out.

16:15

https://www.prosper.com/

16:15

Prosper | Home ... ( http://bit.ly/1IHx8UL )

16:15

"wtf is citizen dentistry ?" "really ?"

16:15

*

ascii_field true to form, is sorry he found out

16:16

anyway, ima go play my game.

16:16

yallz are missing out!

16:16

mircea_popescu: you need to do sth with the inodes

16:16

o first

16:16

*

shinohai never could get into gaming

16:16

jurov hm ?

16:17

oh, it has 58M inodes? okay then

16:17

jurov you making me the irc game client ?

16:17

yes.

16:17

yay.

16:17

for 2BTC

16:17

hm.

16:17

is it actually going to work ?

16:17

are you providing a "mp satisfaction guarantee" with it ?

16:17

well, you pay after

16:17

then it's a deal.

16:18

maybe i'll catch aneurysm from that cpp turd first

16:18

i see it likely

16:18

wai wat

16:18

(pro tip : it doesn't handle pasting atm har har.)

16:18

was this an open rfc ?

16:18

ascii_field i just asked him yest.

16:18

yes. you don't read trilema?

16:18

ah just for jurov then

16:19

ascii_field i don't want you to be doingm it, you do useful things with your time

16:19

mircea_popescu: fair

16:19

like being unreasonable with the pogos

16:19

though i'll probably end up with the bounty for the callgraph

16:19

if anyone does

16:19

because no one seems to be giving a flying fuck

16:19

and btw, there's 0.5BTC bounty for eulora on mac.

16:19

and that thing needs to happen

16:19

ascii_field: I spent a good part of last evening working on it

16:19

tools are all dogshit

16:19

https://c2.staticflickr.com/4/3073/2767638386_d8efc6fb1f.jpg

16:19

... ( http://bit.ly/1TjsD5W )

16:19

trinque: yes, i recall

16:20

be quick before it gets on my nerves and i'll get some apple machine

16:20

ascii_field i think a few people are trying, but yes, as trinque says

16:20

there is no tool to work with, afaik

16:20

nobody realises they live in a house of shit until they try to go out the door

16:20

*

shinohai > mfw there is no cloud, only someone else's computer ...

16:20

http://qntra.net/2015/07/chain-fork-reveals-bip-process-broken/#comment-30536

16:20

Chain Fork Reveals BIP Process Broken | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1TjsJuf )

16:20

the chart needs to account for literally 100% of the src lines

16:20

and, conversely, contain nothing extraneous

16:21

careful shinohai next you'll buy into the cult koolaid that milk doesn't come from supermarket

16:21

and then where'll you be

16:21

Then I'll have to buy a cow. Or marry one.

16:21

I'm close to the state of Alabama, shouldn't be hard.

16:22

BingoBoingo: surprised it took so long for the shitgang to start rolling out obfuscatory smoke ?

16:22

'it wasn't us, because we're the core devs, and ergo it wasn't us, fuck you'

16:22

mircea_popescu: owait, the task includes copy/paste from/to eulora?

16:22

ascii_field: Well, gavin stopped. I guess now they roll on to the next one.

16:22

wai wut

16:22

stopped what

16:23

ascii_field: Stopped commenting on qntra

16:23

ah

16:24

"

16:24

Obviously something went wrong, but blaming the process, or Bitcoin Core's implementation is disingenious. Neither was this caused by wide use of old software, because old software would simply keep producing v2 blocks, so the change would never have triggered." << Ergo these new multi-block forks aren't happening

16:24

gotta love the philippinos

16:25

can crap out four paragraphs of acceptable english, adding up to nothing at all

16:25

jurov how am i going to speak here if i can't paste the assbot text ?

16:25

BingoBoingo http://qntra.net/2015/07/chain-fork-reveals-bip-process-broken/#comment-30584

16:25

Chain Fork Reveals BIP Process Broken | Qntra ... ( http://bit.ly/1Tjt7ZY )

16:27

BingoBoingo i assume that's laanwj

16:27

Well, he didn't sign the comment

16:27

hence assume.

16:28

because why sign things when you're "in crypto". he's an expert at counting fucking goats

16:28

voats

16:28

"what shall we fuck today ?" "nine"

16:29

*

ascii_field has taken to pronouncing 'goat', 'voat', with accent on syllables, as in 'coax' cabl

16:42

https://blockchain.info/tx/bb41a757f405890fb0f5856228e23b715702d714d59bf2b1feb70d8b2b4e3e08 << 999,657 byte transaction with 9 confirmations.

16:43

blockchain wont load on this end

16:43

.info that is

16:44

ah there it went

16:44

"Warning! this transaction is a double spend. You should be extremely careful when trusting any transactions to/from this sender."

16:46

!up ascii_field

16:46

http://gsg-elektronik.de/?id=92

16:46

GSG-Elektronik - Seagate Dockstar RTC-MOD ... ( http://bit.ly/1flrcFL )

16:46

^ adding the missing rtc crystal & power source to 'dockstart', machine using same chipset as pogo

16:46

not practical for 5,000

16:46

unless someone has a stable of slaves

16:47

http://archlinuxarm.org/forum/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=258&start=10 << english, better photos

16:47

Arch Linux ARM • View topic - Dockstar Pinout SDHC Card and I2C ... ( http://bit.ly/1flrhta )

16:48

'double spend' block is crazy close to 1,000,000 byte over-under here : https://bitbet.us/bet/1093/bitcoin-main-net-block-size-to-increase-in/

16:48

BitBet - Bitcoin main net block size to increase in 2015 :: 3.84 B (13%) on Yes, 25.68 B (87%) on No | closing in 4 months 1 week| weight: 41`573 (100`000 to 1) ... ( http://bit.ly/1flrrAF )

16:51

http://www.plugcomputer.org/405/us/plug-basic/documentation/Plug-DevKit-Reference-Design-Rev1.1.pdf << incidentally, this is the reference design on which 'pogo' is based

16:51

... ( http://bit.ly/1flrVa1 )

16:51

!up flabkebab

16:51

complete schematics and pedantically agonizing docs

16:51

or nm, not complete

16:51

*

ascii_field is quite certain he saw the whole thing somewhere !

16:53

http://www.plugcomputer.org/405/us/plug-basic/documentation/Plug-6.0.1-Schematic.pdf << it

16:53

... ( http://bit.ly/1flsbFP )

16:53

pete_dushenski, guy paid 0 fees to make that thing

16:54

lol ya i guess so eh

16:54

12 confs on it too

16:55

the system works?

16:55

or was that not what the "stress testers" were trying to demonstrate

16:56

http://www.plugcomputer.org/405/us/plug-basic/documentation/Plug-PowerPlug-V1.3.pdf << another version

16:56

... ( http://bit.ly/1eDB5gV )

16:56

the outputs must be old enough to not set off spam filters or whatever

16:56

or the guy knows an actual miner

16:58

i like how the block-filling transaction cost nothing, meanwhile redditards are flipping out that they would have to pay 0.0002 if they actually had bitcoin to spend

16:59

!b 3

16:59

Last 3 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/21VCJX6.txt )

17:00

https://admin.govexec.com/media/gbc/docs/pdfs_edit/price_scheme_2015q3.pdf << 40k euros for 'hacking team' to implant agent to track opponent's bitcoin transactions

17:00

not cheap !

17:00

(sorry about pdfturd)

17:00

danielpbarron: my point exactly; bitcoin's own fee mechanism defends against this bullshit

17:01

if someone really wants to "spam" let him pay the fees sufficient to do so, and he can keep that up for as many blocks as he likes, bidding against every other person who wants in the block

17:02

I have no idea what they think the 'stress test' is meant to demonstrate

17:02

'cept that when the best platform for capitalism ever devised appears, fucktards still think markets wont work within it

17:03

trinque: it is abundantly clear what they are trying to do

17:03

stress test demonstrates 1MB is plenty big to allow for periodic spam attacks, and bigger blocks would make bloat attacks still cheaper

17:03

it being, price themselves out of tx, and then clamour for 'deeeeemooocracy'

17:03

the bloat attack is deliberat

17:03

of course it is

17:03

or make nodes drop off network

17:04

yet I can still get transactions through just fine

17:04

with a pittance of a fee

17:04

it also has the purpose of trying to thin the node herd

17:04

and push more fools onto 'spv'

17:04

for ease of usgification

17:04

sort mempool by fee and fuck the poor?

17:05

i still can't fathom why this wasn't sop from day 1.

17:05

flabkebab

hello

17:06

flabkebab: good afternoon

17:06

ascii_field took time for the drones to be lined up, meetings to be had, coffee to be drunk, etc.

17:06

i have not noticed the "network test" except that my actual full nodes sometimes differ by (sometimes rarely) as much as a few dozen blocks before eventually settling in on the true height. My transaction sending has been uneffected.

17:06

it's not like bureaucracy, y'know, works or anything

17:07

flabkebab

So I've been having a go at the callgraph thing

17:09

!up flabkebab_

17:10

thanks, xchat crashed

17:10

so here is the mess I have so far: http://46.101.49.39/graph.svg

17:10

G ... ( http://bit.ly/1eDDLvf )

17:10

flabkebab_: so you got a callgraph ?

17:10

*

ascii_field looks

17:10

looks better than my rat-king

17:10

that still doesn't look like ~all~ the unique symbols in the tree

17:11

not to mention that it is unreadable

17:11

my patience for 'help the mouse find the cheese' ran out when i was four

↖ ↖

17:11

lol

17:11

not interested in balls of yarn

17:12

ascii_field: it's gonna take something where you can grab a node and have it trace only that one

17:12

trinque: we have this already!!!!

17:12

lxr

17:12

I was using "gephi" for this

17:12

i DON'T WANT that

17:12

no

17:12

want a fucking WALL POSTER

17:12

I mean an interface to the dot

17:12

yeah well the call graph itself is tangled

17:12

hmm

17:12

can probably not be untangled in 2d

17:12

this one doesn't look like it even tried

17:12

I also tried something less... ball-yarny

17:13

Edges too close together and was also unreadbale

17:13

gephi will shake the graph out for ya with various plugins

17:13

*unreadable

17:13

can change attraction params on a node, so on

17:13

still looked like shi

17:13

*shit

17:13

all related objects must be near one another

17:14

mircea_popescu: is the ftp server in the vicinity of your bitcoin node? it went full speed for minutes, then it suddenly throttled to 6kbps

17:14

jurov: room 101

17:14

and it's going up again

17:14

ascii_field: as in, same file, or as in same cluster of linked nodes?

17:14

trinque: technically, packets are diddled in room 641a. room 101 is where they put rats in your face

17:15

flabkebab_: as in, on the picture

17:15

ah right

17:15

look at your picture. would you, personally, get any use out of this ?

17:15

101 diddles *you*

17:15

if the answer is no - what makes you think ~i~ could

17:16

ya I see.

17:16

http://iphome.hhi.de/suehring/tml/doc/lenc/html/image_8h_b1e3d8088c78040d3bf44c9ea3293ed7_cgraph.png << example of a ~readable~ callgraph

17:16

... ( http://bit.ly/1eDEMTS )

17:16

taken, at random, from the net

17:16

I wrote a thing that did a force directed graph for an ebnf once

17:17

but the ebnf I was modeling wasn't convoluted inward on itself this haphazardly

17:17

!up ascii_field

17:17

https://romanegloo.files.wordpress.com/2012/03/callgraph_mmap_region.png << another example

17:17

... ( http://bit.ly/1eDESuV )

17:17

that code is way simpler, or missing nodes

17:17

this does not follow

17:18

lemme see if I can screenshot gephi before my laptop dies

17:18

the graph flabkebab_ showed does not even attempt to place symbols ~anywhere near~ even one of their links !!

17:19

they are just dropped down in columns, in apparently random order

17:19

on the topic of time and the pogo, I should point out that I recently had to update the time on my blue pogo (the one i'm using as a web server / irc client) because it had drifted from the real time by as much as a quarter hour in the few months it had been running continuously

17:19

*

jurov expects a discovery that satoshi cast and called functions from void*

17:20

danielpbarron: this is correct and unsurprising, and blows up the 'ntp once on powerup' thing

17:20

it has interrupt-based timekeeping

17:20

which means that it is severely pushed off course by events outside of its control

17:20

many interrupts - skipped moves of emulated clock

17:20

mircea_popescu ^

17:21

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16250 @ 0.00055754 = 9.06 BTC [-] {2}

17:23

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6300 @ 0.00055558 = 3.5002 BTC [-]

17:29

the callgraph thing is a straight 'travelling salesman' problem

17:29

but gotta minimize the crossings of the paths.

17:30

likewise, the 'bubbles' ought to be sized proportional to their connectivity degree.

17:35

mircea_popescu: one hour of uploading looked like this: http://www.explo.yt/net.jpg

17:35

... ( http://bit.ly/1eDIVar )

17:42

<ascii_field> danielpbarron: this is correct and unsurprising, and blows up the 'ntp once on powerup' thing << query timeserver every modulo(rand) seconds?

17:43

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37800 @ 0.00055432 = 20.9533 BTC [-] {3}

17:45

http://blog.cr4.sh/2015/07/building-reliable-smm-backdoor-for-uefi.html

17:45

My aimful life: Building reliable SMM backdoor for UEFI based platforms ... ( http://bit.ly/1gmuBEr )

17:54

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4400 @ 0.00056168 = 2.4714 BTC [+]

17:55

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52042 @ 0.00055206 = 28.7303 BTC [-] {2}

18:00

!up ascii_field

18:00

BingoBoingo: querying it at all is problematic. see today's thread.

18:00

mats: read that last night. notice how it wants you to build with microshit vs!!!

18:00

what a disgrace

18:01

querying at all is problematic. If it must be queried though best to make the timing of queries less predictable.

18:01

(and before anyone chimes in with 'of course vs' - this is empirically false. can build arbitrarily complicated crapware for winblows with gcc)

18:01

^ like Bitcoin

18:02

i've build drivers for winblows with mingw (gcc)

18:02

it is possible to develop for winblows and remain sane if you treat it like a 'nintendo'

18:02

that is, only for testing

18:03

no one writes code for nintendo ~on~ a nintendo

18:03

i wonder why it failed to build on OS X

18:03

mats: which 'it' ?

18:03

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27024 @ 0.00055973 = 15.1261 BTC [+] {2}

18:03

driver

18:04

ask him

18:07

https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=960.msg13833#msg13833 >> I don't understand, are you under the impression that the program sets the system clock? It doesn't. << Satoshi on bitcoin time

18:07

Warning : Check your system clock (help me) ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZeqSd )

18:07

we know that it doesn't

18:07

danielpbarron: if you missed the thread - it was about how we have no clock on pogo

18:08

i have read it all; just happened upon this relevant thread coincidentally

18:09

in 2010 a very similar conversation was being had over on the forum

18:12

and notice how it ended

18:12

'folks will be expected to use ntp'

18:14

ascii_field: seems like this has to have the information you want >> https://dxr.mozilla.org/mozilla-central/search?q=%2Bcallers%3Amozilla%3A%3Aa11y%3A%3AAccessibleWrap%3A%3AShutdown%28%29

18:14

+callers:mozilla::a11y::AccessibleWrap::Shutdown() - DXR Search ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZfm97 )

18:14

dxr, that is

18:14

uses clang

18:15

that's a virtual method

18:15

wai wat

18:15

so perhaps if I can find where it stores the symbol table, I can get the data out of this vast piece of mozilla

18:15

this is the output of a proggy that can take any cpp tree ?

18:16

yeah

18:16

what does mozilla have to do with it

18:16

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3619 @ 0.00055252 = 1.9996 BTC [-]

18:16

ascii_field: mozilla made dxr

18:16

ah

18:16

presumably to help work on their vast wad o cpp

18:17

https://wiki.mozilla.org/DXR

18:17

DXR - MozillaWiki ... ( http://bit.ly/1CobcNo )

18:17

this is 1/10 the battle

18:17

still gotta do the plot

18:17

sure sure

18:17

I am not declaring victory

18:17

just a radar blip

18:17

*

ascii_field bbl

18:18

https://i.imgur.com/GnZuV5D.jpg

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41950 @ 0.00054687 = 22.9412 BTC [-] {3}

18:23

fluffypony

18:23

... ( http://bit.ly/1CZgEBd )

18:30

lobbesbot

New post: http://nosuchlabs.com/rss Phuctored RSA Modulus, GCD=3 (Alex Sosa ; Xlex Sosa ; ) <http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/4FC297377727D7EDA1512181888ECF02A8A5E5BC9B8406B2BF852B84F32FD55A#75FDFCD03681E98E3B4483A1D89425BD17F03693C768C1179CA1D9D0049467E3>

18:30

... ( http://bit.ly/1eKZkup )

18:37

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18300 @ 0.00055259 = 10.1124 BTC [+] {2}

18:44

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53259 @ 0.00054563 = 29.0597 BTC [-] {3}

18:47

haha holy shit, dxr's "install" method is vagrant

18:48

A FUCKING VM FOR A STATIC HTML GENERATOR

18:48

BECAUSE YOU KNOW, THIS IS HOW THINGS ARE DONE TODAY

18:48

:D

18:49

http://www.agner.org/optimize/

18:49

Software optimization resources. C++ and assembly. Windows, Linux, BSD, Mac OS X ... ( http://bit.ly/1CoeLTW )

18:49

these earth humans need a ritual which tests for mindless imitation in children

18:49

the ritual should be arranged such that imitating someone else without reflecting on the outcome first results in death

18:52

better yet, rather than death, a life of moving heavy objects

18:55

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29450 @ 0.00054391 = 16.0181 BTC [-]

19:04

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22701 @ 0.00054391 = 12.3473 BTC [-]

19:09

scoopbot_revived

Most Serene Republic Begins Advertising Public Blockchain Seed Nodes http://qntra.net/2015/07/most-serene-republic-begins-advertising-public-blockchain-seed-nodes/

19:13

nice one bb

19:13

I wish my node would sync to either IP, as it is I'm stuck atm.

19:15

349k+

19:16

363736 with 0 connections nau

19:17

i seem to remember asciilifeform switching over to -addnode after he got stuck. but let's see what he says about it. i'll probably hit the same issue myself.

19:18

ty pete_dushenski

19:20

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8449 @ 0.00054153 = 4.5754 BTC [-]

19:21

I'll give that a shot mod6, been using -connect

19:21

alright, as you wish. let me know how it goes.

19:22

Of course

19:27

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35900 @ 0.00055278 = 19.8448 BTC [+]

19:29

*

BingoBoingo finally trying to recreate my OpenBSD 0.7.2-ish qt build. Must have lost the original sources that worked somewhere down the line

19:38

Well, not really re-create. Just fucking up the version strings in the name of lulz

19:40

!up devthedev

19:40

It's always in the name of lulz BingoBoingo

19:47

!up Duffer1

19:48

!up btcdrak

19:50

<mod6> i seem to remember asciilifeform switching over to -addnode after he got stuck. but let's see what he says about it. i'll probably hit the same issue myself. << i don't think he did

19:51

my stator's at 225753, btw

19:51

I switched my config to addnode, got unstuck then stopped it

19:53

255903 on stator

19:58

I made the sync fine until that orphaned block on the 4th

20:01

http://fusion.net/story/162651/bitcoin-greece-varoufakis-blockchain/

20:01

Why Greece should befriend its bitcoin foes | Fusion ... ( http://bit.ly/1NMub4S )

20:03

shinohai: My stator testbed is lucky it is too slow to have been anywhere close in time to that having been an issue, though that is still an enduring issue.

20:04

I have a stator build working, just waiting on my pogo to get here first. Using the 0.5.3 RELEASE on my shell

20:07

My stator is just on an awfully underpowered AMD64 machine

20:11

here's something I missed: log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187292

20:13

i'll have to see when i get there i guess.

20:13

it doesn't look like bitcoin is ready for prime time

20:14

Good find mod6, I hadn't got that far back yet

20:16

<mod6> here's something I missed: log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=04-07-2015#1187292 << May have to increase locks limit (why it must be there idk) for reorg robustness

20:19

max_locks & max_objects were bumped from 10000 to 40000 in this patch: http://thebitcoin.foundation/ml/btc-dev/2014-December/000024.html But yeah, perhaps it needs to go higher. I'll dig in when I get wedged.

20:19

... ( http://bit.ly/1NMwFQK )

20:20

for those who don't remember, we used to get stuck at block 252`450 before with only 10000 locks set

20:20

Must have been before I discovered La Serenissima

20:21

it was last december.

20:24

Yeah, it was necessary to keep up with 0.8 normal. May need a still bigger boost for reorgs though.

20:31

[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 268 @ 0.00406002 = 1.0881 BTC [-] {4}

20:33

BingoBoingo: have you tried making static build on openbsd? i seem to recall you were running a bunch of openbsd boxes

20:33

But the whole max locks thing is a mess

20:34

phf: i built on 5.6 but I can't seem to get mine to be be statically built :(

20:34

phf: No, not yet. On OpenBSD I'm running an 0.7.2 derivative with LibreSSL 2.0 just to see how it behaves.

20:34

mod6: is that with the patch i posted to ml?

20:35

it was from a patch, but not from the email you just sent in...

20:35

BingoBoingo: that's a good idea, i decided to punt on it, because i don't fully understand the reasoning behind the whole 1.0.1g freeze

20:36

<mod6> phf: i built on 5.6 but I can't seem to get mine to be be statically built :( << First thing to understand about OpenBSD is that it is a weird unix. Not as weird as Linux, but differently weird.

20:36

mod6: nudge nudge wink wink

20:36

phf: maybe you posted this to the channel? anyway, this is the one I used: http://dpaste.com/28PF9DV.txt

20:36

... ( http://bit.ly/1LRdVAX )

20:36

phf: It sync'd and so far it hasn't forked outside of the ways other Bitcoins have

20:36

ok, so I should just use your patches just posted then

20:37

mod6: yes, though they are conceptually similar to the one from dpaste

20:38

read your readme... so yeah, months and months ago I was able to build a dynamic bitcoind on openbsd, but that was the exact issue after statically linked: seg fault.

20:39

lemme try this out :]

20:39

cool!

20:42

In other news http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2015/07/07/police-investigation-under-way--home--subway-pitchman-jared-fogle/29807473/

20:42

How will Subway pitchman Jared Fogle weather FBI investigation? ... ( http://bit.ly/1NMzYHs )

20:42

^ expect in channel soon?

20:44

Like Shrem?

20:45

lol

20:45

Or does he walk with Brock in YCombinator

20:45

why do all the chimos have a certain look about them?

20:46

Thur Genetics?

20:46

who knows

20:46

there's a sort of pudgy, sunken-eyed, pasty-white I invariably associate with "hide yo kids"

20:48

But still, that isn't the complete type. It's the entire shape of the face: very, very Anglo

20:48

*

funkenstein_ is loving the discussion of time in the logs

20:51

BingoBoingo: http://images6.fanpop.com/image/photos/34400000/The-Queen-And-The-Duke-of-Edinburgh-Arrive-in-Slovenia-queen-elizabeth-ii-34496339-691-1024.jpg

20:51

... ( http://bit.ly/1LRfbUI )

20:51

trinque: Looks just like it

20:51

heh

20:53

!up Luke-Jr

20:56

;;later tell gabriel_laddel was checking my rates, out of interest what is my association with gamingfurry.tumblr.com?

20:56

The operation succeeded.

20:56

Morning all

20:57

Buenos Dias

20:57

*

mod6 has to ramp up on espanol for c4

20:59

I would also like to learn Spanish, on my to do list

21:00

*

williamdunne currently has a neck that looks like Cheetah fur, lovely patterned bruising

21:00

i used to be fairly fluent 10 years ago, now. not so much lol.

21:01

I had compulsory German and French lessons for 4 years in state education. Went about as well as expected. My entire vocabulary in both languages is "Bonjour", "Guten Tag", "Ich habe ein gross hose schlange", and "Ich bin zwolf jahre alt", along with a few words of no use on their own

21:01

haha, sounds familiar.

21:01

williamdunne: ich arbeit im krankenhaus

21:02

there, that about does it for my german

21:02

State education?

21:02

duolingo lol

21:02

took spanish in high school; I can understand more than I can say

21:03

I couldn't even update "Ich bin zwolf jahre alt" to make sense in my current state without the assistance from google translate.

21:03

In fairness, even in RO I could understand half the crap because its still latin

21:03

Reading French is even easier IMO

21:04

I speak fluent Taco Bell

21:04

j/k

21:04

*

williamdunne notably did qualify for a non-state school scholarship at a language school, after passing the aptitude tests. Further highlighting the failure of state education

21:05

"puedo comprender mas que puedo hablar" ??

21:05

*

trinque checks himself with google

21:06

google likes it I guess

21:07

I'm ok with Spanish. Could probably carry on a convo though it has been a while/

21:08

german I've yet to get past the myriad articles

21:08

near as I can tell, there is no logic to them

21:09

I'm always impressed with how well Germans speak English

21:09

you just grow up knowing that "*der* Tisch"

21:09

shinohai: heh maybe it's german easy-mode

21:10

Nearly every one I have met speaks far better English than half the Americans I know.

21:10

having merely dabbled in german, there seems to be a preciseness or specificity to it

21:10

all the articles for example

21:10

"this one out of the set" vs "this one" vs "that" ... so on

21:10

;;later tell mircea_popescu i'm pretty sure i... solved it!

21:10

The operation succeeded.

21:10

asciilifeform: time?

21:10

it.

21:11

doesn't help pogo

21:11

*

trinque sounds the horn

21:11

the ~other~ time

21:11

*

shinohai passes a glass of his Absinthe to asciilifeform

21:11

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191623 << that one

21:11

Logged on 07-07-2015 18:51:43; ascii_field: let's imagine, briefly, that i ~do~ find.

21:11

not sure how much good this'll do anyone.

21:12

that would be second famous margin note, after fermat's

21:12

phf has it

21:12

which is why before saying any more, i will have to model it.

21:12

fascinating

21:13

other folks can perhaps work it out if i say that the solution is based on dynamic 'predator-prey' equilibrium

21:14

the realization comes from the fact that you don't really need accurate time, just an oscillator that is reasonably independence of amplitude

21:14

*independent

21:14

that cannot be slowed or sped up at will by any given participant

21:14

*

asciilifeform off to eat

21:16

lamport clocks?

21:19

http://www.thelocal.de/20150707/german-missiles-taken-over-by-hackers << next war will start and end in a flash

21:19

'Hackers' give orders to German missile battery - The Local ... ( http://bit.ly/1LRh8Au )

21:21

phf: do you patches depend on anything besides stator?

21:22

( i patched in ascii's dump/eat block as well, but got a bunch of errors I didn't get last time ): http://dpaste.com/0C67TTN.txt

21:22

... ( http://bit.ly/1dKPE1v )

21:22

mod6: that's the last part of readme, you want to build with gmake instead of make (pkg_add gmake)

21:22

ooh, wait

21:22

i think that's the errors from environment variables not being set

21:22

oh nevremind.

21:23

i screwed up i don't have realpath installed.

21:27

ok rebuilding

21:31

mod6: which openbsd package provides realpath?

21:31

no idea. i just swapped that stuff out for the fullpath, but gernika reminded me that one can usese readlink -f

21:31

*use

21:35

ah k

21:36

lol hipsters http://www.baltimoresun.com/news/opinion/oped/bs-ed-city-police-20150705-story.html

21:36

Police add insult to injury after mugging - Baltimore Sun ... ( http://bit.ly/1LRi2Nj )

21:38

http://www.independent.co.uk/incoming/article10370250.ece/alternates/w620/6-Yanis-Varoufakis-AFP.jpg << wouldja look at the icons of the current adolescent.

21:38

... ( http://bit.ly/1dKRpMg )

21:38

fucking pizza delivery man ++

21:39

i dunno there's a sadder indictment of the decaying west.

21:39

asciilifeform hm ?

21:40

and since we're on painful imagery, http://40.media.tumblr.com/e8a70299f0c5800ff75710a46e278040/tumblr_mm38px73ds1rdbtrjo2_1280.jpg

21:40

... ( http://bit.ly/1dKRCz2 )

21:42

http://www.counter-currents.com/2013/06/race-in-the-early-films-of-d-w-griffith/

21:42

Andrew Hamilton, "Race in the Early Films of D. W. Griffith" | Counter-Currents Publishing ... ( http://bit.ly/1dKROyb )

21:43

omg what is that photo ? insert and expand ?

21:44

menahem: You must be new here

21:44

ha, fairly. mostly read.

21:44

in that photo is a mechanical pear

21:45

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1192194 << basically holy water.

21:45

Logged on 07-07-2015 21:00:28; pete_dushenski: not cheap !

21:45

ahh ok, used in the mouth!

21:46

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1192198 << it meant to demonstrate bitcoin doesn't work if it doesn't work on the redditards' terms. it managed to demonstrate instead redditards don't matter, even when they pay for the voice.

21:46

Logged on 07-07-2015 21:02:02; trinque: I have no idea what they think the 'stress test' is meant to demonstrate

21:46

which is why this place (ie, bitcoin) is so fucking beautiful.

21:46

also why it's so fucking disconcerting to the welfare mass.

21:46

they truely believe it is a natural truth that their existence is all that's needed.

21:47

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1192416 < i've heard that the reason he lost so much weight at subway was because he was stalking some chick who worked there

21:47

Logged on 08-07-2015 00:42:05; BingoBoingo: In other news http://www.indystar.com/story/news/2015/07/07/police-investigation-under-way--home--subway-pitchman-jared-fogle/29807473/

21:48

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35907 @ 0.000557 = 20.0002 BTC [+] {2}

21:49

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76993 @ 0.00056793 = 43.7266 BTC [+] {4}

21:49

thats the first positive outcome to stalking i've heard of

21:49

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1192212 << because stupid and lazy.

21:49

Logged on 07-07-2015 21:05:13; ascii_field: i still can't fathom why this wasn't sop from day 1.

21:50

lose a shitload of weight, gain eight digits in your bank

21:50

mats you know all the girls i knew for the first i dunno, decade of my life i got through stalking ?

21:50

define stalking

21:51

hiding in the bushes, tracking movements, masturbating to her shadowy figure in the shower?

21:51

well, the most famous and i guess exemplare case is, mp stops car, tells shadow : follow that girl. guy gets an address, mp gets a phone number, talks to puzzled woman. explains that he had her stalked, would she like to have a cup of coffee

21:51

asciilifeform: I'm not sure what you are thinking, but my idea is to use the 10 minute block time as a noisy oscillator

21:51

she says sure, she's going for a cup of coffee. i ask where, she says "tell your guy to find out"

21:51

mad scramble throughout town ensues.

21:52

i would like to assure the concerned public that no flower bouquets were involved in any of this at any point.

21:52

!b 8

21:52

Last 8 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2Q31J0Z.txt )

21:52

Oh good, flowers really would have made the whole situation rather strange

21:53

williamdunne it's a reference.

21:55

pogo can keep time by comparing its clock to the block discovery interval, averaging over a long period

21:56

decimation and expect it to come to what, 9 ?

21:56

;;bc,stats

21:56

21:57

;;calc 364334 / 6/ 24/365

21:57

6.93177321157

21:57

it would take a few difficulty inervals

21:57

it would appear we are no less than a year into the future.

21:57

heh

21:57

what is the rate at which new blocks are found?

21:57

in seconds?

21:58

600

21:58

ideally. irl more like 530ish

21:58

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1192251 << nope. exactly unrelated

21:58

Logged on 07-07-2015 21:14:04; jurov: mircea_popescu: is the ftp server in the vicinity of your bitcoin node? it went full speed for minutes, then it suddenly throttled to 6kbps

21:59

in like utah or some shit

22:00

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1192286 << this.

22:00

Logged on 07-07-2015 21:30:21; ascii_field: likewise, the 'bubbles' ought to be sized proportional to their connectivity degree.

22:01

jurov that's a pretty weird graph considering the gaps aren't even same size o.O

22:02

mircea_popescu: 530 is pretty ideal, no? Sign of difficulty growth

22:03

you could fit a curve instead of line over a given interval

22:03

well ideal in what sense ? it's very unideal for his idea of timekeeping, because it proves (what we already knew) : time is meaningless and political time conventional, and all sorts of nutty fashions can endure a long time. ie, 350k blocks in this case.

22:03

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=07-07-2015#1191982 <-- i thought she was going to jump back into jupiter's head a few days ago.. off on her merry way again

22:03

Logged on 07-07-2015 19:54:23; decimation: maybe I should start watching venus too

22:03

decimation the problem of fitting real time to blocks is in fact going straight to the root of the world. solve it, get nobel.

22:03

funkenstein_: lol

22:03

mircea_popescu: I guess. At the very least the cause of it is good though

22:03

or whatever actual respectable prize the nobel used to be

22:04

eh, it demands some modeling

22:04

noit a bad way to burn time, this assay.

22:04

I did a judging thing at teh loebner prize before. Was pretty lulzy

22:04

i've heard tell of a distributed clock that might meet your needs

22:04

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 69900 @ 0.00057271 = 40.0324 BTC [+] {4}

22:04

heh I got your entendre

22:04

it's a prototype, the code might need some cleaning up

22:04

funkenstein_: what's that

22:05

some financial software or other ;)

22:06

funkenstein_: were you the one studying clock intervals in bitcoin

22:06

yes, i speak of bitcoin :)

22:07

the quantity the a miner needs to report is the time since the last difficulty change

22:07

listen shorty, you read the log ?

22:07

yes, enjoyed it.. sorry you are probably sick of this time talk already

22:07

wel lcause youre approaching it fresh

22:07

other than that quantity, the rest is offset

22:08

yes, magical offset in that you don't know who's lying.

22:08

genesis block tells you most of that offset

22:08

does not. looky here. block is 100, timestamp is 100, allowable max drift is 100.

22:09

block 101 arrives, at timestamp 150, advertising timestamp 101.

22:09

you set your timestamp to 101

22:09

block 102 arrives, at timestamp 200, advertising timestamp 250.

22:09

you reject it and now you're forked.

22:09

the longest chain wins

22:09

no.

22:10

the longest ACCEPTABLE chain wins.

22:10

right right

22:10

kneejerk the dwarf wtf!

22:11

we can't know what procedure miners are using to set their own clocks

22:11

that'd be the problem.

22:11

it's basically a jury duty scenario, you found a block, do your best to tell us what time it is

22:11

that's not how trustless works.

22:12

well I think asciilifeform is formulating a more specific attack so that should be interesting

22:12

<asciilifeform> so much as opening pogo and touching inside multiplies the cost of the operation. << and yet mircea_popescu had this done

22:12

for lulz as far as i can tell

22:13

for tests.

22:13

now if i ask dpb something about it, he can answer sensibly.

22:13

well clearly. just making a joke.

22:14

now, as you say, interested parties could find a rate for diddled pogos.

22:14

and on top of that, his error rate cracking them open is probably zero. small sample size, but...

22:15

no, it's not. he said some bits got broken

22:15

ah, my mistake

22:15

!up Vexual

22:17

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1192433 << bwhahaah

22:17

Logged on 08-07-2015 00:56:00; williamdunne: ;;later tell gabriel_laddel was checking my rates, out of interest what is my association with gamingfurry.tumblr.com?

22:17

the .. .baby face ?

22:17

Furry definitely isn't something I'd label myself with

22:18

it's kinda tricky getting them open. I had to scuff up a credit card and yeah some of the inner clips got cracked

22:18

and it took about an hour to do 12 of them

22:18

I might be into some things, but anthropomorphic animals aren't one of those things

22:18

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-07-2015#1192570 << at the risk of 'fleischmanning', i will say a little about the concept even though i am not yet done working it out

22:18

Logged on 08-07-2015 02:03:34; mircea_popescu: decimation the problem of fitting real time to blocks is in fact going straight to the root of the world. solve it, get nobel.

22:19

won't be earning any 'nobels', there is no way in heaven or hell that it could be retrofitted to bitcoin proper

22:19

take yer time

22:20

*

asciilifeform takes mircea_popescu's advice, hushes

22:20

hehe

22:23

ands now i shall leave you with http://41.media.tumblr.com/5f930017bebc54ed7b2723594a70d5f0/tumblr_n8xsxzmnYv1r8wl2xo1_1280.jpg while i go make moar coarse frangible threads

22:23

... ( http://bit.ly/1DPW3BI )

22:23

ahh shit thats cray. :D

22:34

http://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/tinder-date-woman-finds-novel-6010597

22:34

Tinder date woman finds novel way to hit back at man who told her she was too fat to fancy - Mirror Online ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZxPmc )

22:34

phf: hey it worked! sync'ing now... http://dpaste.com/1SZSGAJ.txt

22:34

... ( http://bit.ly/1CZxQXj )

22:35

mod6, nice!

22:36

yes, this is fantastic really.

22:38

BingoBoingo: could he have been much nicer about it?

22:38

williamdunne: Not at all, bitch needs to stop being a Ham.

22:39

http://bitcoin.stackexchange.com/questions/21730/how-does-the-kimoto-gravity-well-regulate-difficulty << not related either to my idea or to pogo. mechanism used in one crackpot altcoin to dispense with need for absolute clock

22:39

algorithms - How does the Kimoto Gravity Well regulate difficulty? - Bitcoin Stack Exchange ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZy3tA )

22:39

(just need to time a block interval)

22:39

BingoBoingo: Tinder causes this issue, experienced it in RO

22:40

Really

22:40

Aye, which was remarkable really. Didn't see any others. She was very nice and I still talk to her, but headshots and angles are good at lying

22:40

http://blog.vertcoin.org/?p=5 << critic

22:40

Development update | Vertcoin Developers Blog ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZydRx )

22:41

from ~other~ crackpot alt.

22:41

*

asciilifeform changes gloves, gas mask filter

22:43

seemingly a PID controller would be best for difficulty adjustment, however simplicity is a stronger argument

22:43

this, again, isn't even related to what i was thinking of. but encountered by accident.

22:43

* asciilifeform changes gloves, gas mask filter << Shouldn't you step away from the cesium dust first?

22:44

*

asciilifeform has not been keeping track of crackpot 'coins' since 'litecoin'

22:44

speaking thereof: https://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/3ci25k/the_current_spam_attack_on_bitcoin_is_not/

22:44

The current spam attack on Bitcoin is not economically feasible on Litecoin : Bitcoin ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZywvF )

22:46

williamdunne: Here the pic/reality discrepancy is so bad in a lot of cases it is like a fat person killed a normal with similar hair and started living their life.

22:46

BingoBoingo: Yeah, she was definitely the same person. Only the body was not what the angles would have you believe

22:46

Don't believe she was wearing someone else's face either

22:46

https://blockchain.info/address/162TRPRZvdgLVNksMoMyGJsYBfYtB4Q8tM >> who typically gets these ?

22:47

Bitcoin Address 162TRPRZvdgLVNksMoMyGJsYBfYtB4Q8tM ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZyTGB )

22:47

funkenstein_: In his defence, the litecoin solution actually seemed like a pretty good way to handle it

22:47

I mean seriously here, the faces look different. Literally have to be using other people's pictures.

22:47

i mean, why has nobody picked it up

22:47

0.00541 is good money

22:47

BingoBoingo: I don't understand how they don't think "oh, maybe they'll be confused when they see me in person?"

22:50

williamdunne: hollywood gave them broken expectations. The moral they complain about is "look good get laid" when they take the worse insane moral of "the protagonist is witty and spechial"

22:50

!b 5

22:50

Last 5 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/21AC41Z.txt )

22:50

BingoBoingo: like anything else that works even though 'shouldn't', this works

22:51

BingoBoingo: Are you suggesting that our tumblrina protagonist isn't witty, or special like the most specialist of snowflakes

22:54

BingoBoingo: except none of that crud is operative, it works from an elementary 'pigeonhole theorem' - many cocks, few parking spots

22:54

Drinking law in the UK is even more lax than I had realized

22:54

https://www.gov.uk/alcohol-young-people-law

22:54

Alcohol and young people - GOV.UK ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZzPe9 )

22:55

No, example. Drinking at the bar with some friends. One fire up "Tinder" girl with nice pictures takes a cab across the mississippi river and walk into the bar. Diameter more than half her height. Recognizes friend, friend has no idea who she is.

22:56

BingoBoingo: she will get laid that day. whereas 90%+ of normal-looking blokes - won't.

22:56

l337 m4rk3tz

22:56

asciilifeform: Note that in North America gay rights became popular as femal obesity rates spiked

22:56

lol blockchain.info is still posting 1-size blocks

22:57

BingoBoingo: i suspect that everybody who came from the factory with that vernier not glued down, is turning it, yes

22:57

decimation: link ?

22:57

https://blockchain.info/

22:57

Bitcoin Block Explorer - Blockchain.info ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZA5db )

22:57

lol

22:57

2 in the last 30 minutes

22:57

such social commentary

22:57

ph0rkz!!!

22:58

I guess.

22:58

ph0rkr4pht!

22:58

it would be interesting to know how blockchain.info gets its data

22:58

<asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: she will get laid that day. whereas 90%+ of normal-looking blokes - won't. << She apparently even managed to fuck this up. Reportedly gave friend sad handjob and blackmailed for attention the next day with promise of putting out eventually. Was driven to bar in the ghetto and left (could not run to vehicle in time to stop it)

22:58

*

williamdunne for a while no longer has to worry about getting laid

22:58

decimation: carrier pigeon, although it's suffering with pattern baldness

22:58

I hope those 'bitcoin core' dumbfucks are happy with the progress they are making

22:59

<asciilifeform> BingoBoingo: i suspect that everybody who came from the factory with that vernier not glued down, is turning it, yes << 31337 social engineering

22:59

It really is remarkable how blockchain.info didn't go down the goxhole, they just consistently break

22:59

because nobody really relies on it for anything

22:59

hence failure - no problem

23:00

https://blockchain.info/block/00000000000000000abdbee0b1c681c7bd3ebd5753af822fdaf7a6754e154b50

23:00

Bitcoin Block #364343 ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZAcW6 )

23:00

"MyWallet" ?

23:00

https://blockchain.info/block/000000000000000009ba590de2819dd4b4f7741fc4b9fc9d45c2e1e00d0ca6ec

23:00

Bitcoin Block #364339 ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZAdcG )

23:02

interesting 364343 was relayed by 65.182.235.207

23:02

williamdunne: When piuk rolled out blockchain.info it was the best block explorer. Once he stopped doing everything it swiftly went to shit and got Andreas'd

23:02

which is purported to be in canby, oregon

23:03

wasn't that where the bctc guy lived?

23:03

BingoBoingo: I can't tolerate any of them currently. Blockchain.info is constantly broken, and all the others have these horrible gaudy interfaces.

23:04

it appears the coinbase one agrees with blockchain.info https://bitcoin.toshi.io/#block

23:04

Toshi ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZACM6 )

23:04

williamdunne: And this is what temps me to fuck with running an electrum server. To run a private block explorer accountable only to me when it barfs

23:05

BingoBoingo: no bootstrap plz

23:06

WHen have I ever used bootstrap?

23:06

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9000 @ 0.0005515 = 4.9635 BTC [-]

23:06

It seems to be a default option, not a personal accusation

23:06

Qntra style would be lovely <3

23:07

http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/CEB08E08EEF3C71AEC185767B076C306E945E535BE55A8CAAAB9378A9F7CD4D1 << missed by scoopbot ?

23:07

Welcome | Phuctor ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZAQ5O )

23:08

asciilifeform: Scoopbot doesn't deal with phuctor, that's trinquebot

23:08

and what is 'marketplace.i2p' ?

23:08

( as seen in http://nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/4FC297377727D7EDA1512181888ECF02A8A5E5BC9B8406B2BF852B84F32FD55A )

23:08

asciilifeform: I'd presume a marketplace on i2p

23:08

well sure

23:08

but ~what~

23:08

anybody got a box running i2p?

23:08

i can't be arsed

23:09

https://www.reddit.com/r/themarketplace/

23:09

The Market Place - An Anonymous Market Built To Enable Trustless Transactions. ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZB4de )

23:09

mabbeh that one

23:14

asciilifeform: it strikes me that your choice of location is to some degree a 'prisoner's dilemma'.

23:14

?

23:15

everyone in your meatwot could probably get a better deal if they lived somewhere cheaper

23:15

like botswana

23:15

but 'cooperation' in moving together is much more expensive than 'defection' to the local area

23:15

hell, west virginia

23:15

one fella did

23:15

now he sits in car for 4 hours instead of 2

23:15

to be fair, west virginia is a shithole

23:15

heh well that's not very much moving

23:16

trinque: sure, but it wouldn't be if people moved there

23:16

maybe so

23:16

why do they all defect to the big city every day

23:16

it would also cost what maryland costs

23:16

if folks moved there

23:16

most notable thing I recall about WV is that giant teapot

23:16

elementary.

23:16

as soon as you start moving in folks with money, it stops 'being cheap'

23:16

the rent collectors don't sleep

23:17

asciilifeform: partially because more dollars are 'created' to bid up assets

23:17

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-us-canada-33414264

23:17

Canadian flew over Calgary in chair carried by balloons - BBC News ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZBMqN )

23:17

Hilarious, he's being charged for this

23:17

even if dollars were conserved

23:17

I suspect that problem wouldn't be as pronounced with a hard-banking hard currency

23:18

sure, folks would bid up assets, but the vast majority of bids in the wash dc area are 'zombies'

23:18

ie usg passthroughs

23:18

and our collective salaries - aren't ?

23:18

"Mr Boria has been charged with mischief causing danger to life and could face further charges." << wait... his?

23:18

heh good point

23:18

the question is: how much of the money that is 'freshly printed' by the fed or a bank part of the wash dc bid?

23:19

that's theoretically measurable

23:19

at this point, i don't regard any aspect of the whole orchestra as honestly measurable

23:19

other than - just possibly - by the perpetrators

23:19

trinque: Yes, his. Unless they're suggesting his stray garden chair could mysteriously strike someone down

23:19

http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=30-07-2014#778096 << see also

23:19

Logged on 30-07-2014 13:57:29; asciilifeform: g: 'show me the real budget.' a: 'you're asking too much. that's off limits to you.'

23:20

you could multiply direct gov spending by the 'print factor'

23:20

but that would only capture a portion - it would exclude the portion magicked into existance by banks

23:20

what does one get from multiplying one work of fiction by another ?

23:20

heh

23:21

let's multiply width of unicorn's horn at its base by the length of yeti's cock

23:21

equals depth of mermaid's snatch ?

23:21

then map the yeti/uni/heat cock

23:21

I guess it would be a useful as the map that nyt ran which indicated the density of racists over usa

23:22

aha

23:22

*

asciilifeform wonders if they recycled map of communists from '50s or bothered to make a new one

23:23

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/us/f-16-and-small-private-plane-collide-in-midair-over-south-carolina.html < usg cares for its people

23:23

Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZCowG )

23:24

http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/08/us/gun-shaped-iphone-case-is-a-terrible-idea-police-officials-warn.html << in other lulz

23:24

Log In - The New York Times ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZCuEv )

23:25

'Mr. Schumer said a federal law requires toy or imitation guns to feature a highly visible orange mark at the end of the barrel to identify them as harmless. Since the phone case does not have the marker, he said, he would work with customs officials to block its import and sale.' << l0l! srsly?

23:26

1) spray orange paint on 'thompson' 2) pull out in front of police 3) ??? 4) profit!!!111!

23:28

asciilifeform: note that the police are rarely punished for shooting innocents

23:28

http://users.humboldt.edu/mstephens/hate/hate_map.html# < note that 'nigger' correlates with large black populations, similar for others

23:28

Hate Map ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZCQv1 )

23:29

latest memo to police almost certainly reads 'plz shoot only white, thx'

23:30

'chink' doesn't correlate to california at all

23:30

or any place with large asian populations that i'm aware of

23:31

worst app ever

23:31

mats is surprised to discover that unicorn's snatch depth does not correlate with mermaid's cock length ?

23:31

mats: note that the 'normalize by the number of tweets'

23:31

thus effectively discounting the liberal population centers

23:32

thttp://www.hardforkcoin.org << for entomologists only!111!!1

23:32

so the self-serving bastards can come to the conclusion that those rednecks out in the sticks are the real racists

23:32

so what i need an inverse contrast map

23:32

and avoid everything else

23:32

heh yeah

23:32

thats a lot of america

23:32

but i knew that already

23:34

metastudies of tweets <-- totally useless waste of time

23:35

funkenstein_: my favorite study of the issue: http://unamusementpark.com/2011/07/blacks-ruin-fourth-of-july-in-baltimore-media-censor-race/

23:36

Unamusement Park » Blog Archive » Blacks ruin Fourth of July in Baltimore; media censor race ... ( http://bit.ly/1HMCsW0 )

23:36

guy found tweets by black people in baltimore back during fourth of july 2011, when there was violence

23:36

isn't that the fella who got 'beaten to death by accident' in a johannesburg police station ?

23:36

heh it might be

23:36

i recall the liberast blogosphere laughing maniacally about this

23:36

'racist gets just deserts'

23:38

he seems to have posted in janurary

23:39

perhaps it was the one who did 'across difficult country'

23:39

i forget.

23:39

don't give much of a shit any more

23:40

i'm enjoying the tweets on that link, decimation

23:40

ebonics has so much... variety

23:40

i talk with criminal slang

23:42

i read some tweets once, it was when dorian was being collected

23:42

after that i vowed never again

23:44

mats: amusingly 'unamusement park' is totally blacklisted from all search engines

23:48

!up Vexual

23:50

i think alf set his clock

23:51

reminds me of Eddie Murphy's grandmother: "What time is it?"

23:52

it might be an interesting simulation to see what would happen if not only all nodes but all miners had no real clock

23:53

difficulty would stay constant I suppose

23:53

can you describe celestial navigation to decimation?

23:54

well the latitude is easy

23:54

for longitude, i believe there is a book by sobel or something

23:55

http://asteroidoccultation.com/asteroid.htm < you can see local asteroid occulations

23:55

Asteroid Occultation Predictions (Current) ... ( http://bit.ly/1CZEfl2 )

23:55

you can calculate them yourself with winblows turdware and usg provided emphemeris data http://www.lunar-occultations.com/iota/occult4.htm

23:55

... ( http://bit.ly/1CZEigZ )

23:56

longitude requires knowledge of time

23:56

what if your tables are from 1997?

23:57

nothing under magnitude 10, makes it difficult on my canoe

23:58

but I like it anyway

23:58

what canoe?

23:58

how far do you paddle?

23:59

figure of speech

23:59