#trilema | 2015-02-08

capacitive charge being what it is, the 2kw would serve for what exactly ?

00:11

bitcoinquestinos irc is a way to talk to people

00:11

!up BlueMatt

00:11

mircea_popescu: they typically have surge rating of 5-7x

00:11

asciilifeform the generators ?

00:12

mircea_popescu: yeah can't run a/c but you could run fridge

00:12

mircea_popescu: I know I'm asking what is the purpose of this IRC?

00:12

decimation depending on the fridge. i think they make gen friendlier models now.

00:12

bitcoinquestinos this is where bitcoin happens.

00:12

mircea_popescu: but what're they used for: typically stands between user and death from exposure. runs furnace blower/igniter in the cold months; a window ac unit in summer; fridge, a few lights, etc.

00:13

asciilifeform yeah, if it's all resistive charge it's useful.

00:13

yeah if you have a gas furnace, and you can run the blower, you can save your house water lines from freezing

00:13

because it could take days for the incompetents to fix the power lines in poor winter weather

00:13

otherwise i dunno what household can be run on 5kw (bottlenecked at 1.5ish)

00:14

'skeleton' systems as described above.

00:14

that's pretty much it

00:14

decimation eu mostly heats on gas, these micro units that mostly don't need power. either because battery or ingenious.

00:14

mircea_popescu: What do you mean? Is this a place where people find the best way to spend their bitcoins so they can hold tighter?

00:15

bitcoinquestinos mno. i mean, when it's decided that mtgox dies, it;s decided here.

00:15

when it's decided gavin is of no further utility for bitcoin, it's decided here.

00:15

mircea_popescu: is it hydronic heat?

00:15

whenever something happens, or doesn't happen, it starts or doesn't start here.

00:16

decimation i have nfi what that is ? but no, either keep a pilot going, or w/e.

00:16

in the us gas heat is common, but typical large us house has a 'forced air' system that moves heated air around the house

00:16

decimation a yes, turns out it is!

00:16

mircea_propescu: Is everyone here anonymous?

00:16

nah, in europe it's a water pipes and radiators.

00:16

forced air is 'cheaper' to install

00:16

bitcoinquestinos you are anonymous. i'm not.

00:16

otherwise it's a worse solution

00:16

not better in any sense tho.

00:17

bitcoinquestinos: about half the people here have www sites with human name, contact info, etc.

00:17

yeah if all you need to do is heat boiler, then you don't need electricity

00:17

my house in timisoara, the heating system held about a ton of water in the pipes and radiative elements. took about an hour to cool a coupla degrees.

00:17

decimation you sort-of need it for the pump, but it's not so much.

00:17

about ~100W

00:17

this is very uncommon in the us, except for old homes

00:18

*

asciilifeform used to live in an early-1900s house with this type of furnace

00:18

asciilifeform and since it runs maybe five times a day for a quarter of an hour, battery's quite feasible.

00:18

yeah if i had to provide backup power for something like that, would use UPS

00:18

mircea_propescu: What makes you say when Mt gox dies it's decided here?

00:18

you actually had it on batteries?!

00:18

bitcoinquestinos history.

00:19

asciilifeform no, but then again i never had a power outage. if they happened, ups would work fine.

00:19

more expensive units come with their own batteries

00:19

(mostly for the co detector tho)

00:19

mircea_propescu: Can you be more specific?

00:19

bitcoinquestinos i could, but so far i'm not particulrly inclined. the logs are in the topic, peruse at your leisure.

00:20

part of the other reason 'forced air' heat is common in the us is because air conditioning is considered to be a requirement

00:20

six months or a year down the road, we can continue this conversation in a better position.

00:20

decimation i kinda wonder why water circulating systems aren't used for cooling much.

00:21

it'd prolly work better than air systems.

00:21

mircea_popescu: condensation.

00:21

among other reasons

00:21

asciilifeform condensation happens in acs too, what.

00:21

there, it happens in an enclosed space, above a drain.

00:21

yeah, but it's controlled in one spot

00:22

it doesn't have to be MUCH colder to extract heat.

00:22

mircea_popescu clearly does not live in swampland

00:22

ac is only half about heat

00:22

hm

00:22

humidity is the real hell.

00:22

i guess that'd have to be it.

00:22

aye

00:23

humidity is what keeps your natural 'ac' - sweat - from doing much good

00:24

also considered purely in energy efficiency terms, a 'heat pump' is most efficient for heating, and can be 'run backwards' for cooling

00:24

whether a heat pump is good economics or lunacy depends on the region

00:24

the problem is that air source heat pumps can only heat down to a certain ambient temperature

00:24

aye

00:25

I have a friend who swears by the new mitsubishi air source heat pumps

00:25

*

asciilifeform had heat pump in old flat, about 1/3 the size of new house (gas furnace there), actually cost more to run the heat pump

00:25

for roughly similar type of wooden hovel

00:26

they claim to heat (without resistive elements) down to 5 F

00:26

natural gas is considerably cheaper, in this part of the world, than equiv. via heatpump.

00:26

asciilifeform: the heat pump was probably turning on bigass resistor for 'emergency heat'

00:27

decimation: i had it configured to show precisely which mechanism was running at a given time

00:27

(aftermarket controller. i take it from flat to flat)

00:27

it wasn't the resistive heater

00:27

but the fact that heat pump can only extract so much at a given external temp

00:28

the newer japanese units can achieve amazing coefficients of performance

00:28

AMAZING COMPANY!

00:28

and they are to be found where in usa? warren buffett's house ?

00:28

*

kakobrekla has one

00:28

said mitsubishi unit

00:28

typically the most efficient ones are 'mini-split' systems

00:29

which would be somewhat useless in a house already fitted with ducts, granted

00:29

*

asciilifeform takes a very limited interest in exotic hvac tech, as he does not own his buildings, and never will

00:30

hvac is a particular kind of chumpatron in the usa

00:30

mircea_popescu: what is http://mpex.co/

00:30

only a few factories manufacturer the equipment, and they usually only sell to 'licensed installers'

00:30

and the junk is typically built to last about one decade.

00:31

kakobrekla

mitsubishi is the shit as far as these heatpumps go

00:31

kakobrekla: do you have a mini-split system?

00:32

for the interested reader, some theory on heat pumps is here: http://www.withouthotair.com/cE/page_301.shtml

00:32

Ch E Page 301: Sustainable Energy - without the hot air | David MacKay ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMBmAj )

00:33

decimation yeah heat pumps seem a lot better deal than any alternative, yet the least commonly used.

00:34

and in principle can heat/cool to any arbitrary temperature, as long as your compressor's up to it.

00:34

well, in the case of the us (as asciilifeform mentioned) natural gas is much cheaper to install and pretty cheap to run

00:34

but gas + ac ?

00:34

yes, that's very common

00:34

which is kinda retarded

00:34

but is it still cheaper, i mean.

00:35

;;market sell 666

00:35

Bitstamp | A market order to sell 666 bitcoins right now would net 148999.9978 USD and would take the last price down to 223.2300 USD, resulting in an average price of 223.7237 USD/BTC. | Data vintage: 0.0119 seconds

00:35

kakobrekla

decimation we have a heat pump for radiators and hot water for the house and for air i have a separate inverter unit with one external and two internal units.

00:35

kako lives in the house of teh future.

00:35

kakobrekla: yeah I bet that's pretty cheap to run

00:35

but not so cheap to install

00:35

*

kakobrekla not leaving house

00:36

decimation but if one's principal equity is the house, a la us, then it makes sense.

00:37

mircea_popescu: the irony is that for many us citizens, their house is their biggest 'savings account', yet very few consider any other option than what the builder 'decided'

00:37

rather strange, n'est pas.

00:38

leaving alone the weirdness of keeping most of your capital in a nonproductive asset (hey, that's made to be through purely government interventionist means), not even pretend like you're managing it ?

00:39

well, one of the reasons that things are this way is because the 'trades' have a pretty strong chokehold on what gets done

00:39

that's another thing. hire a plumber so he tells you what to do ?!

00:39

What do you guys think is the best capital to acquire?

00:39

yes, gas plus ac

00:40

it is typically built as a system of wall ducts/grilles and massive blower in the cellar (in my case, attic)

00:40

bitcoinquestinos http://trilema.com/2013/bitcoin-assets-rules-and-regulations/ (2.a. of particular interest to you).

00:40

#bitcoin-assets rules and regulations pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/13Yy3yb )

00:40

w.r.t. home builders, any home that's younger than 30-40 years has been built in a carefully-managed chumpatronic environment

00:40

the blower has a steel heat exchanger inside, which is either heated with gas fires or chilled with freon loop, as the season goes

00:40

or for that matter, older than about 60.

00:41

or i guess in between

00:41

yeah, that's fair

00:41

although it's been getting worse

00:41

if one's principal equity is the house << depends which flavour of chumpitude one prefers

00:41

the house i live in is a massive roaring bonfire for money

00:41

asciilifeform that should be some pretty cool steel, that happily takes 100 degree differentials over decades.

00:41

(rented)

00:42

mircea_popescu: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-02-2015#1012439

00:42

Logged on 08-02-2015 05:30:55; asciilifeform: and the junk is typically built to last about one decade.

00:42

mircea_popescu: it's considered normal for the entire system to break every year or two, typically requiring a specially licensed repairman to come out and replace the freon lines

00:42

heh there's that.

00:43

decimation you know, i had an old zil fridge at some point in romania, and the thing had been running for ~25 years, and it never ever leaked.

00:43

and yes, it's every bit the toilet+kitchen combo it soulds like

00:43

*sounds

00:43

i have a remote fitted to mine, and occasionally press the wrong button in half-awake trance

00:43

firing up heat in summer or chillers in winter.

00:44

zil fridge << indestructible. see old soviet fridge thread.

00:44

!s zil

00:44

6 results for 'zil' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=zil

00:44

http://media.englishrussia.com/new_images//zilmuseum-50.jpg << exactly the one in middle

00:44

... ( http://bit.ly/1xMFD6P )

00:44

mircea_popescu: in the us, I'm pretty sure that the manufacturers (who have an oligopoly) cheapen shit up so that it 'breaks' and requires replacement at a rate they select

00:44

asciilifeform http://article.yeeyan.org/view/214657/182505 << check out all the soviet porn

00:44

mircea_popescu: that's a recent zil

00:44

('80s?)

00:44

no ?

00:45

yeah the handle's not right

00:45

we had a curvy, bulbous 1950s unit, that still worked when we left it - '92

00:45

ok, well, very similar 70s model.

00:45

capatob ?

00:45

and a '70s 'minsk' (ditto)

00:45

similar refrigerators were made in the us, and were similarly reliable, made before the 60's

00:45

decimation i know, fallout's full of them :D

00:46

this is all a chumpatron on the 'let's break everyone's window so we can stimulate the window-repair economy' model

00:46

http://holod.made-in-by.by/images/stories/zil-fridge.jpg << the True zil.

00:46

... ( http://bit.ly/1xMGm8c )

00:46

ah, that's an older model.

00:47

interestingly, this type of fridge chassis was formally banned in usa, despite giving a much tighter seal than the magnetic rubber used today

00:47

and the ban was an organized scam

00:47

one of the first 'think of the ch1ldr3nz' idiocies

00:47

in the us, the chumpatron is often kick-started by a government regulation that is sold as 'efficient' or 'safe'

00:48

asciilifeform funny enough, it was heard of in 80s romania. parents insistently warning kids not to do it!

00:48

probably the crap was translated into even eskimo

00:48

catchy meme.

00:48

it is. i wonder why.

00:49

http://forums.drom.ru/house/t1151932955.html << fella wanted to buy, insisted on this same zil, promised $maxint

00:49

Ищу холодильник ЗИЛ-Москва ЗИЛ-Днепр!!!!!! ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMHetf )

00:49

plenty of posts like this

00:49

perhaps because parents are so acutely aware of the type of divorcement between meaning and action that trips up children.

00:50

incidentally, the same that results in c++ bugs.

00:50

just as there are, afaik, no confirmed reports of 'glue sniffing' prior to the media chumpamatics re: same in usa

00:50

circa 1970s

00:50

like, most of 'em. "are you sure you wish to forever lock yourself in ? well...that's what you're doing"

00:50

"your exit pointer is now dangling"

00:51

that's what it is. parents suspect children are about on the level of c programmers, and try to avoid any situations where reality emulates the c compiler.

00:51

http://s003.radikal.ru/i201/1108/14/507b7f02f398.jpg << can'o'sprats in bottom shelf

00:51

... ( http://bit.ly/1xMI4WX )

00:51

hahaha

00:51

hm i had some pics of them too im sure.

00:52

parents... c compiler << obligatory: 'shall be delivered'

00:53

http://s017.radikal.ru/i427/1111/3a/913b2a83d5b1.jpg << zil... cake.

00:53

... ( http://bit.ly/1xMIH2S )

00:53

^ the thing is iconic in ru

00:55

lol

00:55

to a lesser extent also famous are other vintage home appliances, like 'buran' vacuum cleaner - http://kartmen.ru/wp-content/uploads/2013/11/20131126_162658.jpg

00:55

... ( http://bit.ly/1xMJoJB )

00:55

still sits in many a summer 'dacha', used to - would you believe - gather up mosquitoes.

00:56

yes, that thing is entirely steel.

00:56

drop from a 8th story window? no problem.

00:56

grandparents had a buran.

00:56

asciilifeform: actually that's not a bad idea, it doesn't take much breeze to keep mosquitos away

00:56

mircea_popescu: same, lol

00:56

only thing that ever scared me. but i'd quit the room in a hurry

00:57

l0l!

00:57

*

asciilifeform same

00:57

and yes it had a half bowl top and a fat cylinder butt

00:57

and sounded like a jet taking off

00:57

that thing was -loud-

00:57

only when i finally moved to current digs and got a 'shop vac' (industrial thing, picks up swarf in machine shop) finally can match 'buran'.

00:58

asciilifeform http://trilema.com/2010/ce-bea-blogerul/ << my claim to ru citizenship

00:58

Ce bea blogerul ? pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMJW25 )

00:58

for sheer deafening

01:00

mircea_popescu: Daca as bea bere la foc continuu, pe o teava cat gatul direct in stomac, fara sa inghit, tot n-as ajunge nicaieri << this is a national sport in usa, didja know ?

01:00

the corner shop near my old flat even sold the kit

01:00

the head mounted thing ?

01:01

http://www.boozingear.com/media/catalog/product/cache/7/thumbnail/5e06319eda06f020e43594a9c230972d/M/S/MSC-0157b/-Bongzilla-12-Pack-Beer-Bong.jpg << ad

01:01

... ( http://bit.ly/1xMKJ2Z )

01:01

http://s3.amazonaws.com/rapgenius/huge-beer-bong.jpg

01:01

... ( http://bit.ly/1xMKRQ4 )

01:01

etc

01:01

heh.

01:01

by the way, let's help the haters out a little. http://trilema.com/2009/cocktail-flu/

01:01

Cocktail flu pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1xMKXqT )

01:01

yes this is common in 'fraternities' on us university campuses

01:14

!up smidge

01:14

guten morgen

01:21

it's not morgen for me

01:21

unless that means night

01:21

me neither but it would be for folks in germany

01:22

aye

01:22

heil fruhstuck ?

01:22

heh

01:22

with that I bid good evening

01:22

!down decimation

~ 51 minutes ~

02:14

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53600 @ 0.00041105 = 22.0323 BTC [+]

02:18

[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1941 @ 0.00087042 = 1.6895 BTC [-] {8}

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[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1964 @ 0.0008671 = 1.703 BTC [-] {5}

02:22

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 262600 @ 0.00040591 = 106.592 BTC [-] {3}

~ 17 minutes ~

02:40

https://twitter.com/ChipotleTweets lol

02:40

Chipotle (@ChipotleTweets) | Twitter ... ( http://bit.ly/1Kvw6tQ )

~ 16 minutes ~

02:56

fluffypony

lol

~ 16 minutes ~

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[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 5000 @ 0.00084738 = 4.2369 BTC [-] {16}

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[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2010 @ 0.00083698 = 1.6823 BTC [-] {5}

03:18

[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3500 @ 0.00083303 = 2.9156 BTC [-] {2}

~ 35 minutes ~

03:53

ah damn, they got their account back already lol

03:54

that's quite quick considering it took @ElectrumWallet about a month to get that account back

~ 49 minutes ~

04:43

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27100 @ 0.00039999 = 10.8397 BTC [-]

~ 57 minutes ~

05:41

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 210500 @ 0.00041106 = 86.5281 BTC [+] {2}

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[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2000 @ 0.0008001 = 1.6002 BTC [-] {2}

~ 1 hours 58 minutes ~

07:47

[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 211 @ 0.00508131 = 1.0722 BTC [+]

~ 52 minutes ~

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[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 3900 @ 0.00082994 = 3.2368 BTC [-] {5}

08:42

[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1250 @ 0.00082999 = 1.0375 BTC [+] {2}

08:55

that generator discussion..incredible. like, imma here running a server off only a little ups with 99.9% uptime

08:56

when putin arrives everyone will be caught with pants down

09:09

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30988 @ 0.00041189 = 12.7636 BTC [+]

09:20

http://oglaf.com/matter/

09:20

Matter ... ( http://bit.ly/1IuRFgw )

~ 36 minutes ~

09:56

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41450 @ 0.00041189 = 17.0728 BTC [+]

~ 22 minutes ~

10:19

Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Gold to top $1500 before 16 May" http://bitbet.us/bet/1106/ Odds: 18(Y):82(N) by coin, 20(Y):80(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.3 BTC. Current weight: 77,641.

10:19

Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $150 before March" http://bitbet.us/bet/1107/ Odds: 13(Y):87(N) by coin, 18(Y):82(N) by weight. Total bet: 10.58179557 BTC. Current weight: 27,359.

10:19

Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin to drop under $100 before April" http://bitbet.us/bet/1108/ Odds: 15(Y):85(N) by coin, 17(Y):83(N) by weight. Total bet: 12.57696636 BTC. Current weight: 64,327.

~ 16 minutes ~

10:35

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63200 @ 0.00041189 = 26.0314 BTC [+]

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11:20

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49082 @ 0.00040969 = 20.1084 BTC [-]

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11:36

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 32800 @ 0.00040969 = 13.4378 BTC [-]

~ 31 minutes ~

12:07

jurov: when putin arrives everyone will be caught with pants down << everyone still there, at any rate.

12:10

[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 12009 @ 0.00077888 = 9.3536 BTC [-] {30}

12:14

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2968 @ 0.00040969 = 1.216 BTC [-]

12:23

[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 1833 @ 0.00077 = 1.4114 BTC [-] {9}

12:26

[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 315 @ 0.00572587 = 1.8036 BTC [+] {20}

12:28

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 111700 @ 0.0004017 = 44.8699 BTC [-] {2}

12:35

btw, anyone read "[Date: 1601.] Conversation, as it was by the Social Fireside, in the Time of the Tudors." ?

12:46

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8743 @ 0.00040734 = 3.5614 BTC [+]

~ 17 minutes ~

13:03

Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "Bitcoin main net block size to increase in 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1093/ Odds: 20(Y):80(N) by coin, 20(Y):80(N) by weight. Total bet: 2.601 BTC. Current weight: 88,488.

13:03

Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "BTC price to rise above 1oz of gold in 2015" http://bitbet.us/bet/1092/ Odds: 38(Y):62(N) by coin, 39(Y):61(N) by weight. Total bet: 4.127 BTC. Current weight: 89,007.

13:03

Bet placed: 1 BTC for No on "BTC tops all time high before April Fool's" http://bitbet.us/bet/1081/ Odds: 9(Y):91(N) by coin, 10(Y):90(N) by weight. Total bet: 6.0329 BTC. Current weight: 39,234.

13:10

[HAVELOCK] [AMHASH1] 2010 @ 0.00077012 = 1.5479 BTC [-] {8}

13:18

!up gabriel_laddel

13:18

!gettrust assbot gabriel_laddel

13:18

Trust relationship from user assbot to user gabriel_laddel: Level 1: 0, Level 2: 1 via 1 connections. | http://w.b-a.link/trust/assbot/gabriel_laddel | http://w.b-a.link/user/gabriel_laddel

13:18

dude, that thing's lengthy, and not directly obvious why i'd care ?

13:19

then don't bother reading I suppose.

13:19

https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/4952 << skimmed a little. from a purely trolling perspective, it's not bad.

13:19

An experience with NixOS. · Issue #4952 · NixOS/nixpkgs · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1yXi10P )

13:21

"the human's inability to fully comprehend the parsing and syntactical schemes they're able to create" << this is actually a generally valid point, and about half of all problems of humanity come from this impedance mismatch.

13:21

it's also necessarily going to remain there, and for great benefit.

13:22

The last message from me in that thread contains a brief discussion of the "why" of lisp, that is, what separates it from being 'just another language'. Figured I'd post it in here because your previous trilema post discussing reverse polish notation and Erik Naggum + many #b-a messages didn't communicate to me that lisp has 'clicked' yet for many people.

13:22

well yes, fortunately i've cut to it by now. but listen, you gotta be much better at packaging stuff.

13:23

the best chemistry lab, were it to be maintained as a collection of bottles going "stuff" "Good stuff!" "REagenT" etc

13:23

would not really work.

13:23

Thanks for the feedback. I'll keep that in mind.

13:25

and since this is here, allow me to rant, not in your direction particularly but in general,

13:25

that the idiocy of puritanism imposing "modesty" upon the coder (on top of chastity - which by the way, there's nothing great about not "raping" women, being a nice guy, great sense of humor etc. that's a drone.) limit people's ability to do crucial things for their success and the world's hygiene.

13:26

there's nothing wrong with saying "i am great", in principle. competent people do not in the slightest mind the nude affirmation of your naked competency. the error on the topic is amusing, but not the end of the world

13:26

(much like people falling imagine everyone's looking when in fact nobod ycares, so the guy caught overstating his competency imagines the world ended when really - people just had a laugh).

13:27

fluffypony

I feel like replying to that thread with "Yakshemash! Lisp best prostitute in all of Github. You like?"

13:27

it is i suspect off this festered, metastasized modesty that people can't make good summaries, introduce anything properly or generally package well

13:27

fluffypony: lol

13:28

fuck (not heck. fuck!) it's probably even why people don't enjoy writing comments and specs. because they require "this is great" and "im so fucking proud of this" ands "i bet you wouldn't have come up with this in five lifetimes" to be either worth reading or worth writing

13:28

and somehow these natural and necessary modes of speech are "forbidden". /rant.

13:29

fluffypony

mircea_popescu: they're part of the "pat-on-the-back" crowd that constantly need to be told what a good job they're doing else their paltry raison d'être will crumble

13:30

i imagine you know, if you can't say it for yourself, you're stuck trying to find people to support you

13:31

doubleplusungood group creation recipe, this.

13:31

anyway https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/4952#issuecomment-73422170 is where the fun starts.

13:31

An experience with NixOS. · Issue #4952 · NixOS/nixpkgs · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1yXjSTl )

13:31

and wtf is nixos even/

13:32

some idiots decided to redo all of unix's packaging

13:32

using shell scripts and regexes, because types and haskell

13:32

well *nix packaging sucks quite universally.

13:32

ahahaha okay.

13:33

yeah. also, they don't document anything, or so much as tell you that they're going to move the whole C toolchain.

13:33

brb changing the font of the tax code

13:33

which breaks about everything.

13:33

the problem starts in 5th grade. there should be a class called Abstraction.

13:34

kids are expecting to do it and do it well but it's never taught. it's not like expecting virgins to fuck like pros on their first date. it's more like expecting tramps to ballet. spontaneously.

13:39

;;bc,stats

13:39

13:39

314555.

13:40

anyone read "[Date: 1601.] Conversation, as it was by the Social Fireside... << aye.

13:40

(anyone wants? here it is, http://archive.org/stream/160103190gut/3190.txt )

13:40

Full text of "1601" ... ( http://bit.ly/1yXlkoM )

13:42

NixOS << if idiots want to keep trying to 'fly' to the moon by stacking chairs, let them.

13:42

but there is no reason for any thinking person to become involved in any capacity.

13:44

^ Correct. I ended up using it because I needed to quickly build a linux distro and someone told me it could do some things it couldn't really do.

13:44

scam.

13:44

mistakenly posted that issue, not fully grokking how bad of an idea it was

13:44

(nixos, that is )

13:44

eventually learned the hard way.

13:45

"Examples: at what point is appropriate to leave package management up to a language's ecosystem? Is there ever a reason to? " << one hell of a problem.

13:46

Politics is harder than writing code. Who would have thought.

13:46

in MPWorld this is implemented as a sort of api, and languages either talk to it or are stuck doing 100% of the work themselves.

13:46

possibly the best package management system for commonlisp users is 'quicklisp'. essentially bulletproof.

13:46

only correct solution to political problems, b-a ness.

13:47

downloads dependencies, grinds gpg sigs, etc. automatically.

13:47

chetty

it's more like expecting tramps to ballet. spontaneously.//you mean they don't? I see in the movies all the time

13:48

"For instance, for ELF executables, we set the RPATH in the executable such that it will find a statically determined set of library dependencies at runtime, rather than using a dynamic mechanism such as the LD_LIBRARY_PATH environment variable to look up libraries" holy shit.

13:48

this is essentially mitm for the userspace.

13:48

chetty well the movies kinda exist for this purpose.

13:48

thing is, braindamaged languages (they know who they are) have no way of specifying -individual routines- as having dependencies

13:48

!up gabriel_laddel

13:49

likewise, another common form of braindamage is a lack of any fine-grained namespace control

13:49

no but this is out and out "everythingwillbefineism" imported back into the software stack.

13:50

like you know, plaintext emails and unauthed telnet. because "who would ever hijack an account!"

13:50

let's just assume that it's ok to override the user imperatives. because.

13:50

trying to explain that it is quit impossible to have a package management system above the language level that is not dumbed down by support for braindamaged languages.

13:50

asciilifeform i didn;'t mean you, i'm stikk in shock over the quote above

13:51

still*

13:51

wai which

13:51

the elf thing?

13:51

woah.

13:51

yes that.

13:52

mitm for the userspace << funnily, one common purely-userland trick to play on pwned folks is to adjust LD_PRELOAD in their personal shell env

13:53

e.g., substitute a 'readline' that logs keys, etc.

13:53

well yes.

14:02

no need to worry about r00tkit, r00tkit pre-installed!

14:04

"it's not the rootkit, it's the os"

14:14

"There are very few classics in the field of computing. We are at the very beginning of this journey and it hasn't even begun to get interesting yet. IMHO, the Cathedral vs. Bazaar isn't in anyway a dilemma or a classic. Linux was a failure 20 years ago, it is a failure today and any posturing otherwise is just that. "

14:15

the sad reality is that the earlier "linux is a failure but doesn't have to stay that way" is slowly coming to the sobering reality that "it is a failure and systemfuck it."

14:16

Seriously. Where is the tree of all hardware as nodes with drivers as sub nodes? Oh, it doesn't exist? right.

14:16

it's not that it doesn't exist.

14:16

it doesn't exist 30 years later, which 30 years have been spent doing what exactly ?

14:16

fighting hardware.

14:17

'fighting'

14:17

right.

14:17

what I would like to see is an actual fight.

14:17

you need actual men for actual fights.

14:17

ever seen teenagers brawl in the schoolyard ?

14:17

nope.

14:17

"eyes closed and arms flailing"

14:18

as for the fight in our realm, I'd like to buy 10ks of AMD opterons K8 chips and reverse engineer them. Give designs to China.

14:19

*

mircea_popescu still vividly remembers this event when he was maybe 13 or so. this kid "got really psised off" and was going to hit me. every time he launched his fist, he also closed his eyes. every time i'd dodge and he'd mash his fist into the nearby wall. his hits got softer an softer, but he never figured out why exactly he's not making contact.

14:19

!up gabriel_laddel

14:19

hahahaa

14:19

wouldja id already.

14:22

motherfucker!

14:22

"Suppose you're trying to find the best way to structure your description of something. (Examples: choosing the structure for a computer program to perform some task; or choosing the structure for a theory of physics.)

14:22

What you hope to find is the natural structure of what you're describing a structure that affords a really beautiful, simple description. When you strike the natural structure, a sort of resonance occurs, in which various subsidiary problems you may have had with your description just melt away, and the description practically writes itself."

14:22

these kids are so fucking stupid i can't believe i've just read "when you meet the right someone it'll feel special" in code-words.

14:24

what the fuck already, if the planet crossed through a bogon ray one evening in 1988 and made everyone's brain essentially batrachian in nature i could never know.

14:25

...

14:25

I've had that exact experience with programming.

14:25

so what if you did ?

14:26

so did i. what's that do ?

14:26

well, when someone is tweaking the design of something and it produces extremely complex and counter-intuitive behavior I point them to that quote.

14:27

the /feeling/ didn't do anything. It is merely a signal.

14:27

listen here : the fact that it feels right is no indication of it being the best way.

14:27

the fact of it being a pile a kludge is an excellent indication of it not being the best way, but rather heuristic in nature.

14:27

mircea_popescu: ...fighting hardware << aha. linux kernel in one sentence.

14:28

mircea_popescu: so how'd you learn to fuck?

14:28

feelings, and trial and error were not involved at all?

14:28

the entire basis for that quote is the reverbalisation of the concept that "when true love comes around you'll know". empirically, most people do not.

14:28

gabriel_laddel i actually was kinda disinterested in fucking as a young adolescent, was taught by older girls.

14:29

you figure that's relevant ?

14:30

mircea_popescu: yes. you've written about the game of 'balance' wrt fucking. when playing this game you /know/ somehow that you're doing it correctly, via various signals.

14:30

but in any case : what do you figure is the difference bewteen "When you strike the natural structure, a sort of resonance occurs" and "perl is a fine way to do nixos" ?

14:30

after all... when you hit the language with regexp just right you know.

14:30

total lack of exploding computers.

14:31

apparently you no longer need trees here ?

14:31

just you know, pattern match and all will be well (when it's truely well)

14:31

using regexes for that is something like... trying to impregnate a woman through her arse.

14:31

at some point you've just got to try something different.

14:32

but you, in your own description (well, in their description which you seem to underscore) of "how to meta-structure" in fact revert to what is the equivalent of pattern matching.

14:32

this is exactly what perl outputs : "it feels right"

14:32

as for my id, I'm currently fixing <irritant to livelihood>. First chance I get I'm sitting down and sorting out the whole GPG thing. As it stands I was not particularly happy with the documentation it supplied and wasn't sure which parts I'd have to rewrite. My previous key got destroyed in a failed backup becuase I didn't spend enough time on it the first time around. Also, I don't think gossipd is happening via w

14:32

hoever it was, and I'm fairly sure I grok ASCII's plan and will be handling some intro documentation for it + figuring out how the PGP code needs to interface with it exactly.

14:33

Hmm...

14:34

Perhaps that quote was misplaced.

14:34

re game of balance : fucking is an extremely poor metaphora for what we're doing here, because computers are actually turing machines, whereas cunts are not.

14:34

so yes, you can do just fine as a human interacting with humans on broken structure. just as long as it's broken in tolerable places.

14:34

dna is exactly this : worst code ever, wouldn't even parse, let alone compile.

14:36

which is why a flimsy repackaging of "popular advice" that doesn't even work on the fucking plane is horribru. not only it doesn't work in practice, but the mind that tends to make such confusions is probably in a very poor state to think about anything.

14:37

(ps. the lisp notation of basic arithmetic would win "least likely to succeed" "ass-ugliest award" from a vast majority of all the people who understand basic arithmetic. it "doesn't feel right" for almost anyone. 3+4 does.

14:37

so what does this matter ?)

14:37

becuase of the "various subsidiary problems that fall away"

14:38

which most idiots aren't aware of in the first place.

14:38

mebbe i should dig that article where i murder some guy over leaving out the outside paran or something.

14:38

the only reasonable basis for discussing such things is how much power they afford you

14:38

whether "they're right" ? what are you, hitler ?

14:39

the right structure is that structure which expresses the sum total of all the concepts in can express in the smallest total count of expression units. note that both fields being infinite, this is a difficult comparison to evaluate.

14:40

it's even difficult to establish what kids of infinite are involved.

14:40

kinds*

14:41

relevent: http://www.jsoftware.com/papers/tot.htm

14:41

Notation as a Tool of Thought ... ( http://bit.ly/1C7CRvk )

14:42

aye, i suspect notation and structure are actually closer married than we generally realise.

14:42

lisp notation of basic arithmetic << one of the most common n00b failures-to-grok. (+ 1 2 3 4 5) not only puts less mileage on keyboard than 1+2+3+4+5, but nukes the abomination of having arbitrary orders of evaluation

14:42

programmer enters the syntax tree directly.

14:42

Hmm.. This is what I was attempting to communicate.

14:42

asciilifeform but feelings were the criteria.

14:43

pheelingz

14:43

mircea_popescu: eh, that was a footnote.

14:43

That said, I've had the experience several times of reading trilema or the logs, not immediately grokking it, returning a day later to have it all 'click'. I'm thinking that might happen here.

14:43

you know it's not your trial for being a badman, this.

14:44

sorry?

14:44

(I don't parse that)

14:45

all the various foregoing rants are not directed at you personally as if you were somehow in ther wrong on some score.

14:45

wtf is this, we're discussing a footnote in something I posted.

14:45

as for puritanism, sure, not directed at me entirely.

14:45

neither, no.

14:46

anyway : the quote you took carries a certain meaning in its original context (physics - esp "natural" is a term of art in physics) and is an entirely different thing in the new context (coding). i fully agree with the quote as it is on the source blog

14:46

when put together with the nix discussion on github it gives me spots on the spline.

14:46

odd how this works.

14:47

same exact fucking quote, as in, string.

14:47

Ah.

14:47

mircea_popescu: random: but I recall you said you don't like driving so you don't. You're driven. Do you ever "want" to drive in some ideal scenario? A racetrack or something?

14:48

thestringpuller notrly.

14:48

the 'nixos' thing is about the same kind, and degree, of contribution to culture as the soviet dogs with extra heads sewn on. with the difference that the latter still have the former beat in the purpose they're really fit for - chimeras to scare small children with

14:48

guess it's an american phenomenon. I find I hate driving in traffic. But lemme open up a sports car at 120-130 MPH somewhere "Top Gear" style and I have a blast.

14:49

too many action movies as a child I 'spose

14:49

so take up bobsleigh. better for your health.

14:49

" As far as I can tell, were one to extrapolate from the given information to a set of concrete requirements we see that NixOS plans to rewrite the build scripts for every version of every project on unix. Again, this is insane. The correct thing to do in this situation is to realize the utter impossibility of the task that has been set forth and re-evaluate one's approach.[1]" << [1] links to the quote previously d

14:49

iscussed.

14:49

!up gabriel_laddel

14:49

!up gabriel_laddel

14:49

ty

14:49

yep, which is why i said tis not about you.

14:50

in any case : the space of things physics has to represent is in point of fact narrower than the space of things computer programs have to represent.

14:50

we know this to be true, because you can have mmorpgs.

14:51

now the next phase of moon-chair-stacking, that nix may or may not have yet entered, is to decide that the turd they have created and are doomed to dine on is in fact a sausage, and to lash out angrily at folks pointing out the actual facts

14:52

first stage is next stage.

14:53

'yes we reached the moon, who said we weren't talking about that one [points to moon painted on ceiling of mental institution]'

14:53

i think we're in the mental institution. they're outside. cheaper this way, more of them.

14:54

gabriel_laddel you seriously thinking of implementing a sane pgp ?

14:55

mircea_popescu: eventually, yes.

14:55

mircea_popescu: as for now, I just want to have a clear idea of what the interface is, what the problems are etc.

14:55

i wanna read the design documents for this.

14:55

*

asciilifeform wishes to point out that a 'sane pgp' will not be pgp-compatible. because much of the insanity lies in the standard itself.

14:55

this is granted.

14:56

asciilifeform: I'v M-x rembered (or something) the previous thread on the matter for when I return to it.

14:56

;;later tell bingoboingo hey, remember that fish i told you about? hooked and landed it after a few days :)

14:56

The operation succeeded.

14:58

asciilifeform: you had a alternate name for gossipd based on russian theater that had some relation to the nazis. I couldn't find the wiki article again, care to point me to it?

14:58

!up bitstein

14:59

gabriel_laddel i take this is going to be lisp, as in not scheme, not clojure, cl ?

14:59

mircea_popescu: CL + C when necessary.

15:00

do they mix ?

15:00

ya

15:02

https://common-lisp.net/project/cffi/

15:02

CFFI - The Common Foreign Function Interface ... ( http://bit.ly/1C7FP3c )

15:04

gabriel_laddel: not a theatre. the 'red orchestra'

15:05

gabriel_laddel: which wasn't any kind of orchestra but a spy network

15:05

ie, the illegal residents of ww2 ?

15:05

aha

15:05

asciilifeform: thank you, this is what I wanted.

15:06

so total noob here, but. the way cffi works is you compile your c stuff as dynamic objects and then put the headers in your lisp program ? or what ?

15:06

*

asciilifeform has no idea why any of the discussed projects would require cffi

15:07

asciilifeform because the guy says so lol. why else ?

15:08

asciilifeform: gossipd requires C. PGP, CL (at least, this is where I'd start).

15:08

cffi to bridge the two if needed, but only then.

15:09

you mean to bridge ro and gossipd ?

15:09

gabriel_laddel: when i declared that it ought to be writte in c, i meant -entirely-

15:09

so as to fit on ludicrously small embedded machinery

15:09

and have wholly deterministic heapless memory behaviour

15:09

asciilifeform cl can't do these ? :D

15:09

but nowhere is it written that anyone must listen to this

15:10

mircea_popescu: you can write cl without 'cons' but this is like english without letter 'e'

15:11

four vowels should be enough for vryon.

15:11

vrn

15:13

and when i say 'c', i'm not talking about gnarly turdalicious gpg-style c

15:13

but clean c

15:13

obligatory: https://gist.github.com/pete/665971

15:13

Various implementations of the 'cat' command, for comparison. ... ( http://bit.ly/1A70iIK )

15:13

My current plan for dealing with these projects: The haskell package Language.C.AST parses C99 entirely, taking into account all GCC extensions. I'm going to pay someone to add a sexpr backend to it so I can work it into my CL toolchain.

15:13

As for what language I'll be using on any given project, it will be determined entirely by what is correct for the project. If I hack something out in CL, but switch it over to C, I'll do that. If it makes sense to release a protopye that is hacked together C+CL+CFFI I'll do that. In any case, both of these come after getting the #b-a distro finished.

15:13

'clean' as in, i whip out a stick and point to a line, and you can tell my why it's there.

15:14

haskell package <<< pay someone to add a sexpr backend to it so I can work it into my CL toolchain ...

15:14

*

asciilifeform head-desks

15:14

asciilifeform: ?

15:14

what part of 'minimal' is so hard to understand?

15:14

what part of 'fits in head'?

15:14

asciilifeform: Sorry, I was being less than clear - this is only for development.

15:14

sometimes i fantasize about buying an old english castle, turning it into a computing school for nude 18 to 22 yo ladies, and putting alf in charge of it, with a flexible bamboo cane.

15:15

gabriel_laddel, et al: try to remember why all of these things need redoing in the first place

15:15

!

15:15

mircea_popescu: signmeup.

15:15

then after a decade i come by and go... "why did she write this!"

15:15

asciilifeform: You've never desired to query over a bunch of gnarly C code?

15:16

gabriel_laddel: query?

15:16

for the purpose of taking a flamethrower to it and replacing with something sane - grep + eyes has always sufficed

15:16

gabriel_laddel his idea being i suspect that c code you wish to query over should just be quarried over yonder hill

15:16

let the wolves have it.

15:16

any other purpose i'm not the least bit interested in

15:16

aha

15:16

what mircea_popescu ^ said.

15:16

asciilifeform: Yes. Show me all structures that look like this. Pattern match against structures, rewrite them as so.

15:16

automated rewrite is equivalent to original turd

15:16

an automated deturdifier ?

15:16

in that all the turdaliciousness remains in place

15:17

it is like suggesting an automated converter of reddit spew to interesting literature

15:17

*

asciilifeform off to meatspace for a spell, unfortunately not for any reasons pertaining to ancient castles

15:17

meh, it' never work, no character growth.

15:18

asciilifeform: I'm assuming, at least for now, that I'm going to have to /look/ at the current PGP sources (thus the C sexprast ). This has no bearing on what will be released other than - I will do what makes sense given the situation.

15:18

so automated code reader. hey, might work.

15:18

mircea_popescu: I have some code now that converts javascript to parenscript

15:19

it, and nothing else will ever be a substitute for thought.

15:19

merely an aid.

15:19

right, i see what you're doing there.

15:21

!up gabriel_laddel

15:22

"As for what language I'll be using on any given project, it will be determined entirely by what is correct for the project."

15:23

gabriel_laddel: how do you find using parenscript?

15:23

I've tried the clojure/clojurescript combo and was thrilled to be using the same language on both ends

15:24

trinque: Modifying clojurescript is god-awful.

15:24

modifying parenscript isn't terrible.

15:24

gabriel_laddel: the outputted JS is more comprehensible?

15:24

trinque: well, there is that too.

15:25

trinque: in any case, I hate everything about the browser.

15:25

that goes without saying

15:26

the browser is not unlikely what'd have happened if the beduins had discovered dna alteration and there was no interstellar void.

15:27

camels floating in space on half butterfly/half bat wings

15:31

As for PGP, I'm assuming that I'm going to have to spend a decent amount of time with the codebase and reading the spec. Perhaps not.

15:32

..

15:32

Why might one want to see the C ast? Let's say that we've got a codebase like the linux kernel, or opengl drivers. You know that somewhere you've got some stuff that talks to the hardware, but grep returns false positives. You instead pull the ast into memory, query across it for the bits your looking for. False positives now indicate something about the language (i.e., that I don't understand it as well as I though

15:32

t) rather than just a false positive. Again, I've never written C, and perhaps the ast is so complicated that it's actually impossible to get any useful information out of it, but my current experience suggests that having this ability is a good idea. Building something like `slime-who-calls' suddenly becomes simple.

15:32

im not even sure pgp has a spec.

15:33

if you recall it was a hurried samizdat

15:33

kk. I should be discussing this in design documents anyways.

15:36

<mircea_popescu> so take up bobsleigh. better for your health. << or bicycles, more actual physical connection of your meat with the dynamic systems in question. airplanes and helicopters worth looking into as well

15:36

actual planes, how do you call them

15:37

gliders

15:37

oh yeah gliders are also awesome

15:37

i like things without much by way of engine.

15:38

hang gliders esp

15:39

hang glider stability dynamics are interesting, but kinda neutered.

15:39

no i meant for your muscle contact thing

15:39

sorta like the "chair with prop hanging from parasail" design.

15:39

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 81500 @ 0.00040982 = 33.4003 BTC [+]

15:39

well, you gotta move to pilot it

15:39

don't get me wrong, they're fly as hell.

15:40

just...limited subset of the control space.

15:42

!up bitcoinquestions

15:42

got some lulz for me today?

~ 31 minutes ~

16:14

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46105 @ 0.00040611 = 18.7237 BTC [-] {2}

16:16

!up bitcoinquestions

16:16

re: parasail < I've heard of incidents where pilots of parasails fly too close to moving trains. They get caught in the vortex and then crash

16:17

I mean paraglider, not parasail I guess

16:17

If I generate a key on a MAC OS that I use for other purposes is it at all secure? Or should I not even bother generating keys if I'm not on a linux distro?

16:18

danielpbarron

is the machine connected to a network?

16:18

decimation: aeronautics is full of exciting! new! innovative! ways to die.

16:19

i saw a gents quadrotor get sucked into its own downdraft near a wall one time, and slam itself repeatedly into said wall while its pilot tried to rescue it

16:19

bitcoinquestions: it is my understanding that macOs uses freebsd's rng (Yarrow), but you are implictly trusting apple...

16:20

ben_vulpes: yeah we ground-bound folk don't appreciate the air movements around objects

16:22

in particular with paragliding, I think that it attracts a certain set of folk who might not consider safety as a top priority

16:23

there's also the squirrelsuit insanity

16:23

folks who volunteer to jump out of a perfectly good aircraft?

16:25

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5N9t5qOSzCU << this sort of thing

16:25

The best wing suit /skydive from you tube PART1 - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1A2ZFl5 )

16:25

ben_vulpes: fwiw there aren't many orcs in the rural bits of ussa, and one can shoot trespassers on sign in those provinces too << Different kind, even tolkien had different kinds of orcs

16:25

ben_vulpes: lol that's nuts

16:26

it's an interesting use of ground effect though

16:26

that's not ground effect if i understand the mechanism in question correctly.

16:27

GE entails actually riding on a compressed cushion between the foil and the ground, not the lift off the foil alone.

16:27

(again, i am not an expert in this area)

16:27

asciilifeform not so foolish as to think about 'homogeneous enforcement environments', knows that there are, e.g., vast deserts in usa where folks set off trucks full of dynamite for amusement, etc. << Sometimes law enforcement attention comes to these folks too.

16:28

ben_vulpes: yeah I guess that's what I thought was happening when he gets close to the ground, but there's probably not enough of a 'cushion' to do the turns they are doing

16:28

it strikes me that if the wind suddenly shifts they could easily bash their heads into a rock

16:29

it's not really clear to me how close they actually are to terra.

16:29

in some places, very close. those places also look very steep.

16:30

sink rate being a thing; angle of attack being a thing...

16:30

aye

~ 26 minutes ~

16:56

decimation: in the us gas heat is common, but typical large us house has a 'forced air' system that moves heated air around the house << Natural gas backup generators for homes are not unheard of here, occasionally going up to home's normal electricity consumption.

16:57

The things live burried in yard

16:58

BingoBoingo: yeah for whatever reason natural gas distribution seems much more reliable than electric distribution

16:59

bitcoinquestions in general a machine is secure if its secure. linux is not a magic pill. as danielpbarron suggests, not connecting it to the internet helps a lot, but also makes it more difficult.

16:59

decimation: Well failures of the natural gas system tend to be more... catastrophic... I remember as a child the day half of my hometown was evacuated because ditch diggers broke an incoming pipe at the edge of town.

16:59

heh.

16:59

BingoBoingo: yeah that's true. occasionally a house explodes too

16:59

Or city block

17:00

a total of nine exploded in a decade in timisoara (tiny town, 300k)

17:03

Bet created: "Gold below $1175 on March 1st" http://bitbet.us/bet/1118/

17:10

mircea_popescu: the best chemistry lab, were it to be maintained as a collection of bottles going "stuff" "Good stuff!" "REagenT" etc 18:23:12 mircea_popescu: would not really work. << This is why other big cause of home explosion is meth "labs"

17:11

decimation> in particular with paragliding, I think that it attracts a certain set of folk who might not consider safety as a top priority << i think paragliding is much like hunting, a sport intended for empty land.

17:11

you wouldn't go blasting quailshot all over the mall either, would you.

17:12

BingoBoingo yup. people trusting shit to memory that are also actively attackin it chemically.

17:16

BingoBoingo: that Breaking Bad tho

17:16

thestringpuller: Illustrates an important difference. "Anyone can do" and "Few can do well"

17:17

At somepoint I thunk you better call saul

17:19

mircea_popescu still vividly remembers this event when he was maybe 13 or so. this kid "got really psised off" and was going to hit me. every time he launched his fist, he also closed his eyes. every time i'd dodge and he'd mash his fist into the nearby wall. his hits got softer an softer, but he never figured out why exactly he's not making contact. << Silimar event in middle school. Bigger kid pesters me for days about how he's

17:19

going to fight me. When he finally starts throwing punches can't keep his eyes open long enough to hit anything or avoid going to the ground and getting stomped

17:19

i didn't beat him up, it was kinda incongruous. he had no real quarrel, posed no real threat and besides, as far as teh adults were concerned i was a silver spoony gentleman.

17:22

Well, I'd been annoyed by his build up to this event for a few day, twas enough of a greivance.

17:23

makes sense

17:26

School administrator was puzzled by the combatants being "A" students without long disciplinary records didn't see fit to issue discipline to either party as the aggressor learned he wasn't fit to aggress.

17:34

mircea_popescu still vividly remembers this event when he was maybe 13 or so. this kid "got really psised off" and was going to hit me. every time he launched his fist, he also closed his eyes. every time i'd dodge and he'd mash his fist into the nearby wall. his hits got softer an softer, but he never figured out why exactly he's not making contact. << Airstrip One must first be cast into the ocean

17:34

^mircea_popescu: sometimes i fantasize about buying an old english castle, turning it into a computing school for nude 18 to 22 yo ladies, and putting alf in charge of it, with a flexible bamboo cane. << wrong pasta buffer

17:35

lol you think ?

17:38

from the slatestarcodex guy: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ritual_of_the_Calling_of_an_Engineer

17:38

Ritual of the Calling of an Engineer - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia ... ( http://bit.ly/190fPzt )

17:38

"The ritual traces its origins to professor H. E. T. Haultain of the University of Toronto, who believed and persuaded other members of the Engineering Institute of Canada that there needed to be a ceremony and standard of ethics developed for graduating engineers. The need was patently obvious in the light of the Quebec Bridge disasters."

17:39

http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1299 < "One clever soul suggested applying this doctrine to yet a fourth profession, creating a kind of “programmer priest.” Perhaps one day there will indeed be someone you can trust to pronounce – truthfully and competently – that a crypto-system is strong, that a protocol has not been diddled, that your computer serves only a single master."

17:39

Loper OS » Don’t Blame the Mice. ... ( http://bit.ly/190fXPr )

17:41

slowly inching towards that. but more like conclave.

17:50

asciilifeform "In the United States polite letters was a cult of the Brahmins of Boston, with William Dean Howells at the helm of the Atlantic." << Release Date: August 20, 2006 [EBook #3190]

17:50

apparently "brahmin" has a lengthy usage to describe the cult of the dead cow of massachussetts ?

17:51

(produced by one David Widger)

17:52

moldbug repurposed (re-re-repurposed?) the word "brahmin" to mean something like 'modern liberal elite'

17:52

signed Franklin J. Meine

17:52

dead about the time shockley was splitting up.

17:52

decimation this is exactly the usage.

17:53

but before that it was used to describe Massachusetts men who spoke with a particular accent and had a particular affinity with the anglo colonizers

17:53

as in "Boston Brahmin" ?

17:54

aye

17:54

The term was coined by the physician and writer Oliver Wendell Holmes, Sr., in an 1860 article in the Atlantic Monthly.

17:54

ic.

17:55

actual boston brahmins talking > https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfR4DLXYpCw

17:55

A dying race- two Boston Brahmins converse (from AMERICAN TO - YouTube ... ( http://bit.ly/1DU01aK )

17:56

they sound australian to me.

17:56

I guess that's what you get from fifth-generation englishmen removed from england

17:57

perhaps farther removed actually

18:04

thye also sound quite idiotic, in retrospect.

18:04

dickens vs austen ? "o look, my toy car is faster than your toy car!"

18:07

yeah the conversation topic is quite inane.

18:07

mircea_popescu: i love your quotes on the US being broke

18:07

I say that to cops a lot when they pull me over for being black

18:08

does it work out ?

18:08

"You're broke nigga, you gonna really persecute the nigga payin your salary"

18:08

lmao

18:08

!up Quantinium

18:08

yeah, that's a true old courthouse favourite, "i pay your salary"

18:08

Usually cop is like "You got anything valuable in the vehicle?"

18:09

"Or on your person?"

18:10

!up bitcoinquestions

18:10

thestringpuller: they are fishing for some property to indict. maybe the local cops want to have some new toys

18:10

yo i dug through your posts on trilema about how you think Gavin is sabotaging bitcoin or whatever for wanting to increase the block size. Are you afraid of DDOS attacks because there are not enough full nodes?

18:11

bitcoinquestions: could you elaborate on your question?

18:11

!up mandarin

18:12

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52062 @ 0.00039986 = 20.8175 BTC [-] {3}

18:12

i am not afraid.

18:13

!b 1

18:13

Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/37P8WY9.txt )

18:17

danielpbarron

funny he mentions ddos

18:17

it is, isn't it?

18:19

in 1790 mr. ddos would have been on one of the sans-culotte's murder gangs

18:20

hardly.

18:24

well, there's a certain lefty predilection toward paranoia/violence that seems stable over the centuries

18:25

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48450 @ 0.00039723 = 19.2458 BTC [-]

18:26

i suspect it's just narcissistic rage.

18:26

"what do you mean i am stupid ?!?!?!?!"

18:26

'no ur stupid, imma ddos you loic!'

~ 17 minutes ~

18:44

!up bitcoinquestions

18:44

get a cloak will you.

18:44

A cloak?

18:45

You mean hide my IP address?

18:47

yes.

18:49

Were you flooding my IP address?

18:54

nope.

18:54

!s ddos

18:54

485 results for 'ddos' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=ddos

18:55

mircea_popescu: ? I need to know whether or not to call the cable company :D

18:55

this is a recurring topic here.

18:55

there's, intermittently, some unidentified derp that floods noobs

~ 32 minutes ~

19:28

!up bitcoinquestions

19:29

ty

19:29

as I was trying to ask early - why do you not like the change to increase the block size?

19:31

you said that you read my articles, which is nice, but it'd be a lot better if instead of saying you did you showed me you did, by asking meaningful rather than meaninglessly general questions.

19:32

particularly relevant, http://trilema.com/2015/third-pass-addressing-the-more-common-pseudo-arguments-raised-by-the-very-stupid-people-that-like-the-gavin-scamcoin-proposal/

19:32

Third pass addressing the more common pseudo-arguments raised by the very stupid people that like the Gavin scamcoin proposal pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea Popescu. ... ( http://bit.ly/1vzm5Zm )

19:32

"XII. The current 1Mb limit is arbitrary. We want to change it. Please ignore the fact that the discussion is about whether to change or not to change, and please ignore that the onus is on whoever proposes change to justify it. Instead, buy into our pretense that the discussion is about "which arbitrary value". Because we're idiots, and so should be you!"

19:37

mircea_popescu: Okay of course the proponents of the change are the ones who must justify it. But the justification is pretty simple, with a larger block size the network can support more transactions per second. This allows more transactions to be onchain instead of through trusted identities.

19:37

looky here : growing larger implies growing costs. this is a given. a larger bitcoin will somehow be paid for.

19:38

there are two avenues to pay for it. one is, to pay for it in bitcoin. via paying for txn.

19:38

another one is, to pay for it in fiat, via paying for disk space.

19:38

these are, obviously, both going to be employed, in some combination, because the thing is going to grow too huge to allow exclusivity

19:39

unrelated to all of this, a usg mole is proposing to change bitcoin into something unsustainable.

19:39

this is completely differet a matter, and it is not proper to mix it together in the consideration of an actual problem. it is not an actual problem.

19:39

to understand exactly the situation, you have camles and donkeys, and have to carry a billion tons of rubble.

19:40

it is one idea to discuss how to load the donkeyus and the camels respectively, to best do this.

19:40

it is ANOTHER discussion to propose that you pile all the donkeys on top of the camels and then throw the lot in the river.

19:40

both discuss camels and donkeys. both ARE NOT discussions of how to carry your rubble.

19:41

so : a) gavin is in no way involved in bitcoin development ; b) gavin's insanities have nothing to do with bitcoin's problems, and in no case are they solutions. as you'd expect of someone who has nothing to do with it in the first place.

19:46

mircea_popescu: Do you have proof that Gavin and some USG mole is trying to implement some attack on bitcoin? What has made you come to this conclusion?

19:46

not gavin AND.

19:46

gavin's it.

19:46

ah gavin is

19:46

okay

19:47

what has made me come to this conclusion is neither here nor there. i am not proposing anything to you. i have made my own determinations, and if you inquire i tell you the reasons. that's how far that goes.

19:48

Well I am inquiring what your reasons are

19:49

as above.

19:53

mircea_popescu: Ah okay I reread and understand a little better I believe. But why do you assume you need to pay for more disk space in fiat?

19:54

yes, well... are you one of those who imagines bitpay "paid in bitcoin" for whatever sponsorship ?

19:54

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 49824 @ 0.00040615 = 20.236 BTC [+] {2}

19:55

point remains : if the expansion is paid in bitcoin, whosoever wants to participate has to SELL fiast assets and buy bitcoin.

19:55

if on the other hand expansion is paid in "hard drives" chances are whosoevere wants to participate has to SELL bitcoin to buy fiat assets.

19:55

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13426 @ 0.00041313 = 5.5467 BTC [+]

19:59

!up bitcoinquestions

19:59

mircea_popescu: Ah I see. Interesting. That is definitely the case as of today. That being said, let's say I create a company that is able to provide hard drive space for cheaper, but I only accepted payment in BTC. If this company existed would your opinion change?

20:00

how would this work ? you mean you manufacture the hard drives in house ?

20:00

exactly

20:00

exactly schmexactly. there's a difference between the idle imagination of youth and the knowledge of men. for instance : i know but you don't know that the vast majority of hard drives are produced in the same few acres of asian shore.

20:01

and that at one point, when they had a flood, hard drive prices exploded on the market by a factor of 3

20:01

which lasted for a summer.

20:01

and that if i or anyone else decides to bomb that place that's that for new hard drives for a decade or more.

20:05

mircea_popescu: alright fair enough, I was just proposing a hypothetical to make sure I understood your position.

20:05

[MPEX] [S.QNTR] 5000 @ 0.00025459 = 1.273 BTC [+] {2}

20:06

how are you to make them ? where do you buy your raw materials for bitcoin ? where do you hire workers and pay them in bitcoin ?

20:06

on it goes.

20:07

kakobrekla

re that story https://www.backblaze.com/blog/backblaze_drive_farming-2/

20:07

forget that part and think of bandwidth. romania does not have this problem, but the us does. bandwidth accessibility is actually going down, not up, and it looks like it may go away entirely.

20:08

mircea_popescu: yeah man everyday I feel more and more that I need to get out of the US

20:08

so then do.

20:08

!s jews

20:08

343 results for 'jews' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=jews

20:09

mircea_popescu: It isn't that simple, I have loved ones etc.

20:10

right.

20:10

kakobrekla not bad.

20:17

mircea_popescu: Another question I have for you. Are you happier when the BTC price goes up or when it goes down?

20:23

!up GoMaD

20:29

I would do anything to be able to drive the price down because I'm collecting coins, but I was wondering whether or not there's a point where you are happy with your assets in terms of BTC and then just want to increase the value of the coins

20:42

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 63950 @ 0.00039723 = 25.4029 BTC [-]

20:45

bitcoinquestions: having loved ones is a good reason to get out of the US.

20:47

!up bitcoinquestions

20:48

trinque: good point haha. Is this channel all in Romania? How is it there?

20:48

no, I live in the US; can't speak for the others

20:48

bitcoinquestions: This channel has rather good global coverage. Even Africa is included in regular participants. Asian participation is a bit lacking though.

20:49

I will say that listening to those familiar with the soviet collapse has been enlightening

20:51

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41050 @ 0.00039714 = 16.3026 BTC [-] {2}

21:00

anyone reading the hong kong 400m bitcoin loss and wondering why it's not on qntra, difficult to ascertain the facts on this one but it would appear hong kong media are clueless.. speaks to qntra's need for a chinese correspondent

21:06

https://github.com/bitcoin/bitcoin/commit/f19dded6e4bf6b5a345de899863310281846eb61

21:06

Improve robustness of DER recoding code · f19dded · bitcoin/bitcoin · GitHub ... ( http://bit.ly/1Dv287g )

21:06

cazalla: interesting, I expected another coin theft but this looks like typical madoff

21:12

Does everyone in this channel code?

21:15

[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 17 @ 0.101 = 1.717 BTC [-] {3}

21:16

trinque: Questions go so far as to whether the thing even existed/happened

21:18

!up bitcoinquestions Depends on your definitions of everyone and code

21:19

by code I mean knows a little bit of python and by everyone I mean 75%+

21:19

(not python specifically but you get the point)

21:22

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 92574 @ 0.00041313 = 38.2451 BTC [+]

21:23

[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25789 @ 0.00041503 = 10.7032 BTC [+]

21:27

Well, It's still hard to say

21:27

Not everyone advertises everything

21:32

yeah, i guess 75% of me codes

21:34

Question for the foundation: When futzing with bitcoin sources to build more recent phoundation version, changing the constant in alert.cpp to garbage will keep a node so built from recognizing and/or passing a Gavin alert. Yes or no?

21:37

!up agorecki

21:37

BingoBoingo: depends on the patch

21:37

and i don't see any alert.cpp on 0.5.3

21:38

you guys run bitcoin 0.5.3?

21:39

danielpbarron

!s thebitcoin.foundation

21:39

21 results for 'thebitcoin.foundation' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=thebitcoin.foundation

21:40

!s pogostick

21:40

3 results for 'pogostick' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=pogostick

21:40

!s pogoplug

21:40

34 results for 'pogoplug' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=pogoplug

21:40

^that.

21:41

jurov: I'm fucking around on 0.8.6 two lines in alert.cpp in that version possess public keys for verifying "Upgrade Alerts". My gut is telling me that changing the public keys to garbage is going to be the quick dirty way to effectively neuter the alert system in the build. Figure each time I build change the garbage subbing for pubkeys.

21:50

http://btc.yt/lxr/satoshi/source/src/main.cpp?v=0.8.6#3692 after short exploration i found out this

21:50

Satoshi 0.8.6/src/main.cpp ... ( http://bit.ly/16Da1tX )

21:50

i.e. your node would think others misbehave by sending invalid alerts

21:51

better remove whole branch completely

21:51

Ah

21:53

Thanks

22:06

BingoBoingo: alerts were snipped via this patch: http://thebitcoin.foundation/turdmeister-alert-snip.tar.gz -- It's not posted to the btc-dev mailing list yet. This might have been because of issues with messages getting snarffed back in Oct./Nov.

22:06

... ( http://bit.ly/16Dejl2 )

22:07

mod6: Saw that. I'm building a different phoundation version for personal use.

22:07

it seems that alerts were probably moved out to their own file in later versions.

22:07

re: alerts.cpp etc.

22:09

asciilifeform: when you get a chance, you should do a new submission to the list for the alert & win32 patches. thx in advance.

22:13

BingoBoingo: fwiw it looks like alerts.[h/cpp] appear in v0.7.0

22:13

K

22:14

BingoBoingo: My gut is telling me that changing the public keys to garbage is going to be the quick << not that dirty, either.

22:18

!up bitcoinquestions

22:18

everyone can "do a little coding' just like any man could ride a horse in 1800.

22:18

people who can't are simply subhuman.

22:26

!up Newar

~ 27 minutes ~

22:54

i keep getting into arguments about non-people (the ones who would put arm in wood chipper)

22:54

flailing my arms yelling "they aren't people!!!"

23:03

"OMG the blocksize limit is too small" last 6 blocks: 108k 26k 112k 97k 553k and 602k

23:03

!b 1

23:03

Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/3S3Y83J.txt )

~ 26 minutes ~

23:29

!up bitcoinquestions

23:30

mircea_popescu: I did a lot more critical thinking about the blocksize limit and holy shit I feel so dumb for ever thinking Gavin's proposal was a good idea.

23:31

bitcoinquestions: http://i.imgur.com/38BlfVp.png

23:32

And there's no way Gavin doesn't know exactly what he's doing, right? Like is it possible he convinced himself that it was a good idea?

23:32

It's perfectly tricky though - it does at first seem like a good idea.

23:35

It seems like something he could convince the masses to upgrade to, but I'm assuming the miners know better than to let that happen, correct?

23:35

Like is this a real threat?

23:38

it's always possible one convinces himself anything's a good idea.

23:38

see discussion re orwell past few days.

23:41

;;google site:trilema.com woodchipper

23:41

The story of Pointless and Witless pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea ...: <http://trilema.com/2013/the-story-of-pointless-and-witless/>; MPOE, January 2014 Statement pe Trilema - Un blog de Mircea ...: <http://trilema.com/mpoe-january-2014-statement>; Notorious M.P. layin down that subliminal shit, na mean ? pe Trilema ...: <http://trilema.com/notorious-mp-layin-down-that- (1 more message)

23:46

anyone here wanna play bitcoin bounce? It's a simple game I made up to build up trust. Person A sends person B .5 BTC then person B ends the game by either running with the money or returning .5 BTC. Person B can continue the game by sending Person A 1 BTC back. Rinse and repeat.

23:46

The higher you get the higher trust you've established

23:49

...

23:52

so you wanna play musical chairs?

23:53

or is it hot potato...

23:53

The tale is told, too, of a certain woman who performed an aeolian crepitation at a dinner attended by the witty Monsignieur Dupanloup, Bishop of Orleans, and that when, to cover up her lapse, she began to scrape her feet upon the floor, and to make similar noises, the Bishop said, "Do not trouble to find a rhyme, Madam!"

23:56