Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2021-11-20 | 2021-11-22 → ↓
09:29 crtdaydreams o/
09:31 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-17#1066376 << Moot point.
09:31 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-17 10:47:10 signpost: to wish to have been there is to wish to fail with a lost cause. better to know why they failed and fix it.
09:32 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-17#1066394 << If you know other hackers my age, please introduce me.
09:32 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-17 12:04:00 BingoBoingo: And generally the young adults today seem less retarded than self and peers at their age, but maybe I'm just picky about the ones I entertain?
~ 22 minutes ~
09:55 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-17#1066435 << I've been reading a lot of your articles over the past few days, my technical knowledge provides a huge limitation on the intrinsic understanding concepts like C-gates and dataflow computing.
09:55 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-17 15:08:10 asciilifeform: ( and could return en masse, if a sane iron were to be fabbed ! )
09:59 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-17#1066480 << I will take that into careful consideration moving forward.
09:59 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-17 15:32:09 signpost: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-17#1066436 << many of the precocious fail later because narcissism deranges
10:02 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-17#1066494 << Any top 10 tips on how *not* to be a narcissist?
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10:02 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-17 16:12:35 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-17#1066480 << possibly not merely many but most
10:11 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-17#1066582 << /me hasn't actually bought any crypto after dumping shitcoin a few days prior.
10:11 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-17 22:43:08 vex: did you manange to swap your bullshit out for something useful crtdaydreams?
10:14 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-18#1066594 << aight, try me.
10:14 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-18 00:13:53 vex: I am super keen to test certain newbies arthmetic skills
10:19 crtdaydreams http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-18#1066696 << When observed? :P
10:19 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-18 11:29:50 asciilifeform: bistable -- 1 collapses into the other periodically.
~ 5 hours 45 minutes ~
16:05 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-21#1066949 << imho it may be a birth defect. (sometimes latent, like schizos, may need a 'trigger')
16:05 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-21 05:02:34 crtdaydreams: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-17#1066494 << Any top 10 tips on how *not* to be a narcissist?
16:06 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
16:06 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $59433.46
16:06 asciilifeform !w poll
16:06 watchglass Polling 17 nodes...
16:06 watchglass 176.9.59.199:8333 : Could not connect! (Operator: jurov)
16:06 watchglass 185.85.38.54:8333 : Could not connect!
16:06 watchglass 84.16.46.130:8333 : Could not connect!
16:06 watchglass 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=710711
16:06 watchglass 71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.099s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710711 (Operator: asciilifeform)
16:06 watchglass 185.163.46.29:8333 : Could not connect!
16:06 watchglass 213.109.238.156:8333 : Could not connect!
16:06 watchglass 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.111s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710711
16:06 watchglass 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.083s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710711 (Operator: asciilifeform)
16:06 watchglass 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.141s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=710711
16:06 watchglass 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.142s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710711
16:06 watchglass 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=710711 (Operator: whaack)
16:06 watchglass 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.169s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710711
16:06 watchglass 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.194s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710711
16:06 watchglass 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.258s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=710711
16:07 watchglass 103.36.92.112:8333 : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length!
16:07 watchglass 192.151.158.26:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
16:08 asciilifeform continuing this thrd : asciilifeform realized that he neglected to specify what happens when ~no one~ supplies the missing msg within the set time interval. (possibly add to a queue for periodic requests? but when to 'give up' ? can't keep these around 4evah) -- comments invited.
16:08 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-20 17:23:52 asciilifeform: i.e. bitwise agreement, 'we're all sharing wikilicks.tar.gz and hash of it is H'. rather than 'we each have a log history with possibly 10% missing, each in different spot'
16:09 asciilifeform ^ thimbronion et al
16:16 asciilifeform anuther observation -- a station possib. should have some awareness of whether an originated message actually went out before updating own net/self hash. (we dun have 'acks', but a broadcast msg is expected to come back verbatim, given as rebroadcasts are to all peers incl. originator)
16:17 asciilifeform i.e. if you're transmitting but yer cable is unplugged, possibly pest oughta warn, rather than potentially pissing out the msg n days later when you plug back in
~ 1 hours 22 minutes ~
17:40 jonsykkel i dont understand why dedup window is larger than 30min timestump window
17:50 asciilifeform jonsykkel: station clocks are permitted to differ by +/- 15m. this, plus margin.
17:50 punkman I don't have a dedup window in my implementation, only timestamp window
17:50 punkman meaning, anything that passes timestamp window, will be checked against all messages I have on disk
17:56 punkman muh scalabilities "One 256 bit integer costs 20,000 gas to save, which at today’s costs is about $7.50… for one number!"
17:57 punkman how do you even trade shittokens at those prices, I've yet to figure out
17:57 signpost I believe the notion behind having a window is fixed bounds on dedup lookup
17:57 signpost rather than ever-growing
17:58 signpost "all things shall be worst case and worst case fixed"
18:05 jonsykkel asciilifeform: will not worst case be: time() == 100min. receive valid paket A stumped 115min. put in dedup. 30mins later at time() == 130min someone replays A. still passes stump window. so has to be deduped
18:05 asciilifeform signpost: correct
18:05 jonsykkel punkman: cannot someone then assrape ur io by spamming msgs inside stump window?
18:06 asciilifeform jonsykkel: plz elaborate (what means 'time() == 100min' ?)
18:06 jonsykkel asciilifeform: ur own station clock returns 100min
18:06 asciilifeform jonsykkel: timestamps are unix epochal times (64bit)
18:07 jonsykkel yes i mean it can be any offset
18:07 punkman I have an index of msg hashes, if it grows too big I suppose there might be a performance hit. but it's minor optimization at this point
18:08 asciilifeform jonsykkel: the expiration interval is 15min. i.e. nuffin you accept at time t is valid at t+15min.
18:08 asciilifeform jonsykkel: or do i misunderstand your q ?
18:08 asciilifeform punkman: the notion is that a reasonable iron (e.g. 32core 'dulap') oughta be able to process incoming packets at Gb/s
18:09 asciilifeform punkman: this is impractical if an opponent can force you to access disk to do it
18:10 jonsykkel asciilifeform: ill fix my text
18:10 asciilifeform ( see also re subj )
18:11 punkman will be interesting to run some kind of benchmark when I get it back to working
18:12 asciilifeform jonsykkel: keep in mind that the only type of spamola that costs palpable cpu is replays of ~valid~ packets (i.e. from a peer) -- and, of course, packets actually generated by a peer (the solution to this is arguably a 'hog' alarm + unpeer)
18:12 jonsykkel asciilifeform: will not worst case be: time() == t. receive valid paket A stumped t+15min (which is <= t+15min so it passes stump window). put in dedup. 30mins later at time() == t+30min someone replays A. still passes stump window (cuz A.stump == t+15min, which is >= t+30min-15min). so has to be deduped
18:13 asciilifeform s/stumped/stamped neh
18:14 jonsykkel asciilifeform: yes, my question is why the dedup bufer needs to store 1hour worth of hashes+stumps rather than 30min
18:14 asciilifeform and correct, if station received a current+15m packet, it can be replayed 30m later. hence why dedup queue holds 1h min.
18:14 asciilifeform jonsykkel: margin.
18:15 asciilifeform jonsykkel: y'know, how when building bridge and expecting 10 tanks to fit, you build for e.g. 25.
18:15 jonsykkel alrite
18:16 jonsykkel yeah, i guess i cant imagine what exactly would cause margin of 10sec to be insufficient
18:16 * asciilifeform not aware of any extant irons where clock can drift by 10s of min within span of hour, but theoretically possible, for instance.
18:16 asciilifeform 1 simple example -- you realized that yer clock was +15m. and fixed.
18:17 asciilifeform this must not disrupt pest station.
18:17 asciilifeform ( see also )
18:17 jonsykkel well if your clokc is +15m it might as well be +16m, in which case you have bigger problems
18:18 asciilifeform jonsykkel: says right there in spec, that operators are expected to keep within 15m.
18:18 asciilifeform and that this is achievable w/out use of automated ntpisms. which is historically correct.
18:18 jonsykkel this is what i mean, if your clock is +16min relative to peers, all msgs will be rejected so you have bigger problems than dedup margin
18:19 asciilifeform jonsykkel: correct. but operator must be able to set his +15min clock back -15min w/out disrupting station.
18:20 jonsykkel if operator sets to +15min and his peer sets to -15min ur fukd tho
18:20 asciilifeform hence '+/- 15m of each other' verbiage in spec.
18:21 asciilifeform this is the responsibility of the operators, and there's no pill against this.
18:21 jonsykkel ah misread ur last msg
18:21 jonsykkel nvm
18:21 asciilifeform i.e. if you can't be arsed to keep within +/-15m of other people, you can't pest.
18:25 jonsykkel sure, agreed
18:26 asciilifeform jonsykkel: dunno if you were here for the ancient threads re p2p, but 1 key objective is to make protocol that can be readily hardwarized, i.e. can build box which eats packets from street at e.g. 1Gb/s in one hole, and passes only valid packets out of other hole (and vice versa)
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18:27 asciilifeform more interestingly, oughta be able to connect N such boxes (each on diff. ip, or even diff. isp) and connect'em all to 1 station
18:27 asciilifeform i.e. to make ddos as close to physically impossible as possible.
18:28 asciilifeform ( see also . )
18:28 dulapbot Logged on 2021-09-12 13:31:32 asciilifeform: asciilifeform's scheme does not try to do the impossible (e.g. opposable signatures at line rate on pc) but next best thing -- nomoar ddos (reject at Gb/s easily on even 8core box; agnostic of ip, so if you have 9000 nics -- you're in biznis for so long as ~1~ can send/receive packets; rejection of replays; and finally, you get to have a ~reasonable~ if not perfect idea that you're talking at time T to same person as a
18:30 asciilifeform i.e. if you have N nics, connected to N isps, while ~one~ of'em is able to send/receive packets, your station remains in biz.
18:31 asciilifeform (and, importantly, the enemy has no ready means of knowing what N is, because the spares aint in use unless req'd)
18:32 asciilifeform potentially 1 or moar of the links could even be a private line (radio, hell, dialup, whatever)
18:33 asciilifeform jonsykkel: 'secret' objective of pest is to build a wotronic internet parasitically on top of existing comms.
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18:33 jonsykkel http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-21#1067034 << what are the boxes here? idea is that you would do verification and deduping steps on separate hardware?
18:33 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-21 13:26:14 asciilifeform: jonsykkel: dunno if you were here for the ancient threads re p2p, but 1 key objective is to make protocol that can be readily hardwarized, i.e. can build box which eats packets from street at e.g. 1Gb/s in one hole, and passes only valid packets out of other hole (and vice versa)
18:34 asciilifeform jonsykkel: nah. simply 1st pass filter (reject liquishit)
18:34 jonsykkel right, so it spits out deliquishited black packets out of other hole
18:34 asciilifeform aha.
18:35 jonsykkel makes sense
18:36 jonsykkel yeah parasitic internet is good idea, cant wait
18:36 asciilifeform jonsykkel: there's 2 basic effects of ddos. 1 is to simply fill up your line, and effect is similar to a cut cable (you have a 1Gb/s fiber, over9000 bots are sending you rubbish, for total of 100Gb/s, isp's filter kicks in and you have a however long outage on the line.) the other effect is to eat cpu/disk on the victim's end
18:37 asciilifeform the pill against the former is simply to be able to operate over N fallback links, w/out enemy necessarily having any idea of their existence. the pill against the latter is to actually have a protocol where a spamola packet is rejected no later than 1/t, where t is the interval the nic takes to receive the packet.
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18:38 asciilifeform afaik pest is the only published protocol which explicitly mandates both.
18:39 asciilifeform err s/1\/t/t
18:40 asciilifeform jonsykkel: makes sense ?
18:40 jonsykkel right right
18:40 jonsykkel yep
18:40 jonsykkel slow brain takes a while to process
18:41 asciilifeform jonsykkel: dunno how familiar you are with mechanics of ddos; but e.g. tcp makes it quite simple (once somebody gives you a SYN, you're stuck allocating memory to store connection state)
18:42 asciilifeform that's not even to mention items like http servers where any joker can make you thrash disk and eat up 100s of msec per req
18:43 asciilifeform whereas w/ pest station, a stranger can't even ping the box and distinguish ip from a dead one.
18:43 asciilifeform given as it won't answer.
18:44 asciilifeform nobody but a peer has any biz at all knowing that there's a box at $ip.
18:45 asciilifeform likewise, you might be sending from $ip1 nao, but $ip2 on entirely diff. isp 10sec from nao, and the peers don't give a damn. they'll answer to the most recent one which spoke.
18:46 jonsykkel ye this is cool property
18:46 asciilifeform it aint an accidental property, jonsykkel , it's rather fundamental to the design.
18:47 jonsykkel not very familiar with ddos or network stuf in general
18:47 jonsykkel i see i see
18:47 asciilifeform notion is to abstract away as much of the underling physical network as possible.
18:48 asciilifeform cut cable? no prob., so long as your 2 other cables, or gsm modem, etc still live.
18:48 asciilifeform and no need for complicated routers or whatever heavy gear.
18:49 asciilifeform or say yer 'pesting' from a moving vehicle, and 'wardriving' wireless. also noprob.
18:50 * asciilifeform must bbl
18:51 jonsykkel very cool stuff indeed
18:52 jonsykkel looking forward to shortwave pestnet
~ 2 hours 5 minutes ~
20:57 asciilifeform jonsykkel: one could speculate re exotica, e.g. pirateradio boats anchored off coast and transiting pest traffic for btc-paying subscribers; but 'bridge too far' atm.
20:59 asciilifeform ( potentially if yer rockefeller, could even Officially reserve spectrum for this. but again 'bridge too far', i doubt anyone will be doing this in near future )
21:00 jonsykkel hehe
21:00 asciilifeform the bigger picture point is that the 'single packet friend-or-foe' allows for very simple paying-members-only services, in principle.
21:00 jonsykkel one day
21:01 asciilifeform (i.e. stations where you gotta pony up to have yer key in its wot)
21:02 jonsykkel ye will be very easy to interface to anything
21:03 asciilifeform first gotta 1) 100% sane spec 2) 100% compliant implementation which can eat&shit at a reasonable line rate. (seems that these gotta be baked in parallel.)
21:04 asciilifeform then and only then exotica.
21:04 jonsykkel best way to do it anyway, impossible to plan too far ahed imo even for einsteins
21:05 jonsykkel or quality of planning will suffer anyway
21:06 asciilifeform 'Первым делом, первым делом - самолеты, Ну, а девушки? А девушки - потом.'(tm)(r) ('first, first business, are the airplanes, then, and only then, the chix'
21:06 asciilifeform )
21:07 jonsykkel words to live by
21:07 jonsykkel or smth
~ 16 minutes ~
21:23 billymg i've updated the pest info page at http://pest.bitdash.io to include a mirror of asciilifeform's latest 0xFC draft, as well as a mirror of thimbronion's prototype
21:32 billymg accidentally ran the bot modified for pestnet in this chan, let's see if it's working correctly now
21:33 billymg ok, back to normal
21:45 asciilifeform billymg: neato, ty!
21:46 asciilifeform billymg: loox a++ eye-friendly.
21:48 * asciilifeform envisions 1 day possibly someone could make the whole protocol in wall poster form
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21:49 asciilifeform imho is mechanically simple enuff for this to be effective
21:53 asciilifeform re: 0xfc -- considering notion that 'Text' perhaps oughta be renamed to 'Payload'; the orig. name may be misleading in light of binariola payloads being permitted in current ver.
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21:54 asciilifeform would ideally go along with a revision of the verbiage ( word 'payload' is in places used to describe entire Message with respect to a packet , in particular )
21:55 asciilifeform this and other potential confusions oughta be polished away.
21:57 asciilifeform 'Text' oughta refer strictly to the payloads of Messages carrying human-readable strings.
~ 1 hours 4 minutes ~
23:01 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-21#1067095 << cool idea, maybe i'll make some numbered prints and mail 'em out when the spec is finalized
23:01 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-21 16:42:38 asciilifeform: envisions 1 day possibly someone could make the whole protocol in wall poster form
23:02 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-11-21#1067097 << i was thinking the same re: the intro text, "Pest is a peer-to-peer network protocol intended for IRC-style chat."
23:02 dulapbot Logged on 2021-11-21 16:47:03 asciilifeform: re: 0xfc -- considering notion that 'Text' perhaps oughta be renamed to 'Payload'; the orig. name may be misleading in light of binariola payloads being permitted in current ver.
23:04 billymg perhaps, "...intended for decentralized packet routing" or something similar
~ 19 minutes ~
23:24 thimbronion billymg: love the landing page
23:25 billymg thimbronion: thanks!
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