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← 2021-08-22 | 2021-08-24 →
02:52 scoopbot New post on Bingology - The Blog of Aaron 'BingoBoingo' Rogier: Adventures In Video
~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~
03:58 thimbronion Very cool to see bingoboingo in moving picture format
03:59 bingoboingo thimbronion Thank you, definitely substantial room for improvement.
04:02 bingoboingo And if it isn't clear "consumers have come to expect" is driving the decision to record the video in a vertical format.
~ 7 hours 20 minutes ~
11:22 punkman "Over the last 60 years, Visa has built a collection of historic commerce artifacts - from early paper credit cards to the zip-zap machine. Today, as we enter a new era of NFT-commerce, Visa welcomes CryptoPunk #7610 to our collection."
~ 3 hours 24 minutes ~
14:46 thimbronion $ticker btc usd
14:46 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $49762.15
~ 1 hours 41 minutes ~
16:28 PeterL !s update
16:28 PeterL http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-22#1053342 << added
16:28 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-22 07:40:14 cgra: PeterL: by me, you may add it to the scoopbot roll, http://cgra.net/feed
~ 20 minutes ~
16:48 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-22#1053344 << correct.
16:48 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-22 12:41:24 thimbronion: asciilifeform: in your scheme is there a field in the packet that indicates whether or not it should be relayed?
16:49 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-22#1053343 << still haven't tried this item, but fully intend to!
16:49 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-22 12:34:50 scoopbot: New post on Thimbron: Alcuin 9996: Testnet and Bugfixes
16:51 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-22#1053348 << ftr asciilifeform still suspects that 'lolcatvids' could just as effectively be served via a torrent-like mechanism, with 0 centralized cachefarms etc req'd
16:51 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-22 23:57:42 bingoboingo: And if it isn't clear "consumers have come to expect" is driving the decision to record the video in a vertical format.
16:52 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-21#1053332 << wb shinohai
16:52 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-21 19:13:16 shinohai: Good to be back home.
16:52 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-23#1053349 << wtf is a 'cryptopunk' here ?
16:52 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-23 07:18:03 punkman: "Over the last 60 years, Visa has built a collection of historic commerce artifacts - from early paper credit cards to the zip-zap machine. Today, as we enter a new era of NFT-commerce, Visa welcomes CryptoPunk #7610 to our collection."
16:52 asciilifeform $ticker btc usd
16:52 busybot Current BTC price in USD: $49423.18
16:52 asciilifeform !w poll
16:52 watchglass Polling 17 nodes...
16:52 watchglass 185.85.38.54:8333 : Could not connect!
16:52 watchglass 84.16.46.130:8333 : Could not connect!
16:52 watchglass 185.163.46.29:8333 : Could not connect!
16:52 watchglass 205.134.172.26:8333 : Alive: (0.081s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=697216
16:52 watchglass 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.141s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=697216
16:52 watchglass 205.134.172.28:8333 : Alive: (0.083s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Return Addr=0.0.0.0:8333 Blocks=697216 (Operator: whaack)
16:52 watchglass 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.153s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=697216
16:52 watchglass 54.39.156.171:8333 : (ns562940.ip-54-39-156.net) Alive: (0.171s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=697216
16:53 watchglass 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.150s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=697216 (Operator: asciilifeform)
16:53 watchglass 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.234s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=697216
16:53 watchglass 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.220s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=697216
16:53 watchglass 54.38.94.63:8333 : (ns3140226.ip-54-38-94.eu) Alive: (0.331s) V=88888 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.8.88.88/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=697216
16:53 watchglass 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.389s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=697216
16:53 watchglass 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.614s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=697216
16:53 watchglass 71.191.220.241:8333 : (pool-71-191-220-241.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.897s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=697216 (Operator: asciilifeform)
16:53 watchglass 176.9.59.199:8333 : Violated BTC Protocol: Bad header length! (Operator: jurov)
16:54 shinohai asciilifeform: A cryptopunk is where you sell .jpg copy of a head from a 1988 Nintendo game for thousands/millions in ETH
16:54 watchglass 192.151.158.26:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 100 sec.)
16:56 punkman in 2014 terms, cryptopunks are an implementation of "colored coins"
16:57 punkman with people pretending a jpg is equivalent to painted canvas and can be owned/traded
~ 16 minutes ~
17:13 asciilifeform aa these
17:14 asciilifeform punkman: any idea what made that liquishit return ? ( or -- never entirely disappeared at all ? )
17:27 billymg weren't the "cryptokitties" in 2017 the same thing too? i think they just rehash it during each hype cycle to distract from btc and divert funds from btc into eth
17:30 asciilifeform billymg: pyramids, i suspect, 'will be with us always'.
17:30 dulapbot Logged on 2020-05-05 19:32:50 asciilifeform: sergey mavrodi of 'mmm' was at 1 pt richest man in orcistan. and even sat in parliament. still died broke and folx came to shit on his grave.
17:30 asciilifeform a possibly moar interesting observation is that the 'stupid will lose their coin to the smart' prophecy of mp et al did not (detectable) come to pass.
17:31 asciilifeform 'smart' may be a null set.
17:31 asciilifeform (or at any rate among bitcoinists...)
17:31 asciilifeform *detectably
17:33 punkman asciilifeform: is passing just fine
17:34 punkman we can see coins parked at "cold" addresses at increasing rate
17:34 asciilifeform punkman: how wouldja distinguish this from the commonplace 'luser loses his keys' ?
17:35 asciilifeform ( or the also not uncommon 'dies capt.kidd-style w/out sharing key with heir' )
17:35 punkman I'm talking about kilocoin addresses
17:36 asciilifeform punkman: how does mass enter into it ?
17:37 asciilifeform plenty of kilocoin addrs w/ lost (by all indications) keys, incl. likely shitoshi's
17:37 punkman because "microstrategy" is quite less likely to lose key than derp in 2014
17:38 asciilifeform punkman: that microstrategy ? did they publish their addrs ? (why would do this?)
17:38 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-07 19:35:18 mats: microstrategy llc, has the biggest btc stash among public corps https://bitcointreasuries.net
17:38 dulapbot Logged on 2020-10-27 13:54:19 thimbronion: asciilifeform: the claim is that the btc is now in cold storage, in the posession of Microstrategy. They haven't published their storage scheme.
17:43 punkman I'm seeing the addresses accumulate, seeing the news of "microstrategies" buying kilocoins, perhaps the correlation is imagined.
17:43 punkman but my bet is that big players are indeed accumulating
17:45 asciilifeform punkman: imho is interesting to contemplate the q of the theoretical limits of (any) organization's seekrit-keeping capacity.
17:46 punkman the derp that lost 500 btc to "pirate", is losing maybe 0.5 btc to "pirate2021"
17:46 asciilifeform arguably prior to bitcoinism, absolutely no bitstring was of a 10k-2021-btc 'bearer instrument' worth.
17:47 asciilifeform (not even a hypothetical 'pill for rsa' kept at ft meade underneath pillow of lizard hitler's throne, perhaps)
17:48 asciilifeform punkman: re pirate -- probably factual, but presupposes that 'pirate' himself will not lose to anyone
17:48 punkman the derp of integer btc, is not derp of integer bitcent
17:48 punkman *now
17:49 punkman pirate can lose to usg or whoever else, and a bit later it's in hand of "microstrategy" that doesn't play dice or throw away usb key
17:50 asciilifeform punkman: right; so q is, whether microstrategy et al are qualitatively different kinds of organization with somehow infinite secret-keeping ability
17:51 asciilifeform and 100% airtight electronics
17:51 asciilifeform and 100% loyal employees; etc
17:53 asciilifeform ( the song & dance w/ 'multisig' and its pre-btcism equivalents is just that -- for one thing, often enuff a privkey physically exists ~somewhere~ prior to being 'split' ; for other thing, just about erry organization uses some form of 'unprincipled exceptions'; or else 1 or 2 plane crash -> total loss potentially )
18:00 asciilifeform ... there's, imho, an inherent 'engineering contradiction' b/w the traditional 'organizational continuity' of an item like microstrategy or nsa, and the approach req'd to hold on to coin on a decade+ timescale.
18:00 punkman for organization of many people, could say btc is quite like storing physical item worth millions, with the added downside of being much easier to sneak out the building
18:01 asciilifeform ... and impossible to return
18:01 asciilifeform ... and virtually impossible to say (if it were done with even half a brain) who did it or how.
18:02 asciilifeform not to mention that traditional 'xyzmillion dollar items' (e.g. rembrandts) were NOT bearer instruments
18:02 asciilifeform and generally ~useless to steal
18:02 asciilifeform (try fence a rembrandt for anywhere close to its Official value)
18:03 asciilifeform whereas a 10kbtc privkey is worth 10kbtc.
18:05 asciilifeform other interesting aspect (if obvious one) is that the circle to whom a btc privkey is useful, is of almost planetary width ( janitor finds -- he can use) unlike the proverbial h-bomb plans , seekrit formulae etc
18:11 punkman we'll see how the big stashes of 20/21 fare, maybe chinese spies get them like all those "trade secrets" they've been stealing
18:12 asciilifeform punkman: maybe 'we find out', maybe not
18:12 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-09 06:14:47 punkman: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-08#1050664 << good example of "didn't find out, after all". what did we "find out later" about 9/11? even talking about it 20 years later, sort of makes you a weirdo
18:15 asciilifeform (for the thick readers -- just because coin 'moved' does not mean that it changed hands; and conversely, simply because ~hasn't~ moved, does not prove that there is not a second party in possession of privkey... )
18:25 punkman when loss happens, there will be the SFYL
18:25 punkman conversely, if there was no SFYL, did loss even happen
18:26 asciilifeform 'the bezzle'(tm)(r)
18:26 asciilifeform (happened, but 'lazy-evaluated')
18:28 punkman doesn't that guy make the point that "hasn't actually happened before point of evaluation"
18:29 asciilifeform galbraith ?
18:29 punkman yeah
18:29 asciilifeform was his contention, yes
18:31 asciilifeform (imho sophistry. it 'happened' when it happened, just like yer shot when shot, not when fall down)
18:37 * asciilifeform won't be surprised if eventually reich mandates and attempts to enforce key escrow for 'organizational' (i.e. reich-registered orcs) held coinz
18:38 asciilifeform *orgs
18:42 punkman a utxo visualization https://utxo-stats.com/
18:42 punkman if I'm reading the blue part correctly, it's concentrating
18:51 asciilifeform punkman: 'Updated August 03 2019, 16:18 at block height 588457' << rip ?
18:52 punkman seems like I might have to make my own
18:53 asciilifeform ' Each pixel represents a block, where each row is 300 blocks (~50 hours). The orange image displays the number of unspent transaction outputs per block, and the blue shows the combined value in BTC of those outputs.'
18:53 asciilifeform ^ not clear from this that 'concentrating' (at least, per the picture)
18:53 asciilifeform seems opposite -- dispersing ?
18:54 asciilifeform if 'number of unspent outputs per block' -- increasing (as the graphic implies)
18:54 asciilifeform punkman: perhaps whaack could easily make a similar graphic, iirc he recently completed a wwwistic trb block browser
18:55 punkman https://www.blockchain.com/charts/utxo-count from 8mil utxo in 2014 to ~80mil now
18:56 punkman yes the previous visualization is kinda useless
18:56 asciilifeform soo, then where's the 'concentrating' ?
18:57 asciilifeform ( can't deny that it may be happening from avail. evidence -- but cannot say that it is, necessarily, likewise )
18:57 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-23 14:11:20 asciilifeform: (for the thick readers -- just because coin 'moved' does not mean that it changed hands; and conversely, simply because ~hasn't~ moved, does not prove that there is not a second party in possession of privkey... )
18:57 asciilifeform if anything -- seems entirely opposite
18:57 asciilifeform wb bingoboingo
19:09 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-23#1053423 << this property of bitcoin seems like cause for optimism (if you can survive long enough). it would also undermine these kinds of schemes by the reich
19:09 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-23 13:56:08 asciilifeform: ... there's, imho, an inherent 'engineering contradiction' b/w the traditional 'organizational continuity' of an item like microstrategy or nsa, and the approach req'd to hold on to coin on a decade+ timescale.
19:09 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-23 14:33:24 asciilifeform: won't be surprised if eventually reich mandates and attempts to enforce key escrow for 'organizational' (i.e. reich-registered orcs) held coinz
19:10 asciilifeform billymg: 1 caveat is that only ~actual~ bitcoin has this property; papercoin, otoh, behaves similarly to erry other previously known type of paperism
19:11 billymg asciilifeform: right, but this concedes there's an advantage to the individual vs. the organization
19:14 billymg asciilifeform: unrelated, i'm trying to configure dulap with xorg and dwm but one of the deps for xorg isn't found on your repo, 'app-eselect/eselect-mesa-0.0.10-r1'
19:14 billymg i can't remember if dulap is meant strictly as a headless distro or can be configured with dwm
19:16 asciilifeform billymg: there was a box 'with head' among the machines which collectively went into that repo; but it had ancient x
19:18 * asciilifeform recently completed a gentoo box w/ xorg and using circa-2021 packages strictly, save for gcc (where 4.9) and w/out any systemdisms which crept in since the '16 cut date of dulap-gentoo ; so can confirm that it is possible. but sadly no time to document the process atm
19:19 asciilifeform there was a considerable amt of manual fiddling w/ USE flags for individual builds. and mesa defo was on this list.
19:20 asciilifeform here's 1 link re subj; will eventually post the rest
19:20 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-05 15:41:05 asciilifeform: 'Get ride of systemd-tmpfiles'
19:21 asciilifeform ... the process took 2+wks of nights/weekends ftr.
19:21 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-01 21:26:37 asciilifeform: blew days on trying to transplant 'AMDGPU' to dulap-gentoo. so far w/out success.
19:26 billymg asciilifeform: https://g3ngr33n.github.io/systemd-openrc/index.html << this is for excising any remaining traces of systemd from "stock" 2021 gentoo?
19:35 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-23#1053471 << also if the output of this effort is ~= to a "2021 dulap" i'd pay to have a copy
19:35 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-23 15:13:39 asciilifeform: recently completed a gentoo box w/ xorg and using circa-2021 packages strictly, save for gcc (where 4.9) and w/out any systemdisms which crept in since the '16 cut date of dulap-gentoo ; so can confirm that it is possible. but sadly no time to document the process atm
19:45 asciilifeform billymg: i'ma repeat the exercise 'from 0' a la 2016 when i get a chance (if lucky -- december!) and make a new repo w/ the resulting /usr/portage/distfiles and instruction.
19:46 asciilifeform ( if someone beats me to this -- will not be sad, quite opposite )
19:47 billymg asciilifeform: looking forward to it, i really like dulap for its ease of installation
19:47 asciilifeform fwiw contrary to asciilifeform's expectation -- did not need to resort to gcc5 or later for any package (tho is possible to eselect and use evil gcc if req'd; evil-gcc's do build w/ godly one )
19:47 asciilifeform billymg: if you consider disk image as 'easy installation' lol
19:48 billymg asciilifeform: regarding the css for your logger theme, what was the goal for the table? have it always stretch to full width rather than size of elements and centered?
19:48 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-20 15:34:20 asciilifeform: ( to be clear -- is asciilifeform's 'fit width' kludge which turns to soup, rather than billymg's css fix from yest. )
19:48 asciilifeform billymg: wanted to fill width, but to cleanly spill to N rows if req'd
19:49 billymg seems to sort of be working that way, at least in chromium
19:49 asciilifeform seems to work on e.g. x86 chrome ; but on crapple pnojes etc -- crumples into wreck
19:49 billymg ahh
19:49 billymg and what are the reqs for lynx rendering?
19:50 asciilifeform that all links are legible, elementarily
19:50 asciilifeform under all browsers.
19:50 asciilifeform imho is not overly ambitious for simple item like this.
19:51 asciilifeform legible and without horiz. scrolling.
19:51 asciilifeform horizontal scrolling is to be killed with fire and sword.
19:51 billymg asciilifeform: right, but iirc it was also a requirement of yours that the channel links be displayed in a horizontal row in lynx
19:51 asciilifeform one or more horiz rows.
19:51 asciilifeform as req'd to fit'em all.
19:52 asciilifeform (this currently only concerns 'show all' mode obv.)
19:52 billymg right
19:52 billymg ok, i see the problem in ios now lol
19:52 billymg kind of an amusing result
19:53 asciilifeform atm asciilifeform has 1) no idea why breaks on crapple 2) not remotely the time to try to find out. but if anyone does -- plz write in.
19:54 asciilifeform i suspect that The Right Thing there would be to actually crank out multiple tables, w/ say 3 entries each max. and that nuffin short of this will cover 100% of possible browser idiocies.
19:54 billymg asciilifeform: going back to lynx, i can't think of how you'll ever achieve something different than what you have now, since all CSS is ignored
19:54 asciilifeform cssism is arguably bogus approach
19:55 billymg so it's gonna render based off your <table> tag structure only
19:55 asciilifeform billymg: lynx wraps lines tho
19:55 billymg iow works as you want out of the box?
19:55 billymg if so, that's good
19:55 asciilifeform hrm now looks like in lynx -- 1 chan/line
19:56 asciilifeform so no, not as it oughta be
19:56 asciilifeform (in fact entirely wrecked under lynx -- there are not correct line breaks b/w the last-change times and chan names)
19:57 * asciilifeform brb
19:59 billymg asciilifeform: i think that was a result of your latest css changes, see http://logs.bitdash.io in lynx
20:00 billymg (i switched it to the classic theme with <table> chanlist layout temporarily to test this)
20:04 billymg http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-08-23#1053516 << sorry, i meant a result of your latest html changes (CSS has absolutely 0 effect on lynx)
20:04 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-23 15:55:06 billymg: asciilifeform: i think that was a result of your latest css changes, see http://logs.bitdash.io in lynx
20:05 billymg looking at the patch though it looks like you tried a similar approach to what i attempted back when i was working on these themes
20:07 billymg where you keep the channel together with their last active timestamps together in respective table cells (which imo is semantically and ordinally the right approach)
20:08 billymg but breaks in lynx because of its limited table rendering capabilities
20:10 * billymg fought with this for quite some time actually, until eventually gave up and provided two separate chanlist templates, one based on <table> to work with classic.css and to asciilifeform's specs in lynx, and one based on <ul> which renders as a stacked list in lynx (and however you want in graphical browsers, depending on the css)
~ 16 minutes ~
20:27 asciilifeform billymg: i suspect that the Right Thing would be to throw out 'table' and simply hardcode N (e.g. 3) chan/time per line, with paragraph markers, and styled to fit screen width.
20:27 * asciilifeform sadly does not have the cycles to experiment atm
20:27 billymg asciilifeform: i'm happy to help with this
20:27 asciilifeform why ty billymg
20:27 * asciilifeform will try out patch if billymg comes up w/ one
20:28 billymg asciilifeform: not sure how that hardcoded approach would help with lynx though
20:28 asciilifeform billymg: it does seem to faithfully render paragraph breaks. so i expect it would
20:28 billymg asciilifeform: right, but does it send e.g. "viewport width" to the server so the server can calculate the right number of lines to send back
20:29 billymg i was assuming your solution was a server side solution
20:29 asciilifeform billymg: correct -- notion would be to simply stuff e.g. 1st 3 chans/times into a para, then 3 more, etc. generated on server end.
20:29 billymg is 3 arbitrary?
20:29 billymg or based on width of client (if server can somehow know this)
20:30 asciilifeform billymg: conservative guess of 'how many would fit in every known horiz screen width w/out spillage'
20:30 billymg ahhh
20:30 billymg that makes it easy at least
20:30 asciilifeform at this pt i'm convinced that there is not a clean, cross-browser solution to this or to anyffin else, that doesn't reduce to 'pretend it's 1993'
20:30 billymg ok, gonna switch my logger back to its default theme
20:31 asciilifeform cssism tricks ALWAYS, seems, break ~somewhere~
20:31 asciilifeform and unpredictably.
20:31 asciilifeform and if not today, then tomorrow.
20:31 asciilifeform whole concept of 'web standards' is a malignant crock of shit.
20:33 billymg asciilifeform: not disagreeing, but i do know (as a result of being paid to know) how to work around most of these issues
20:33 billymg asciilifeform: i switched mine back to my theme, take a look in lynx and see if you still hate the vertical stacked chan list
20:33 asciilifeform right, but the workarounds have a strong flavour of voodoo -- they consist of incantations which are tested empirically, via brute force, and when they fail -- no rational explanation for why fail (or conversely -- when do not fail) appears to exist anywhere
20:34 asciilifeform billymg: still stacked. (but now -- correctly paired chan/time , at least... )
20:36 billymg asciilifeform: yup, this is my personal preference for lynx. would you be opposed to that for your theme? (if so can nuke chan-list-table.html and users only need to switch css file to go between themes, not also the template file)
20:37 asciilifeform billymg: is improvement over previous. (so long as not changes how graphical browsers display)
20:37 punkman unspent coinbase outputs quite stable around 2mil BTC https://checkonchain.com/btconchain/minerbalance_pricing_usd/minerbalance_pricing_usd_light.html
20:38 asciilifeform punkman: linked graphic seems to concern specifically block reward addrs, neh ?
20:38 billymg asciilifeform: wish you would've told me that months ago when i was working on it! lol
20:38 asciilifeform billymg: i thought q was re porting the lynx fix to asciilifeform's theme
20:39 asciilifeform ( asciilifeform does not like sidebarism in any form and will not use it in his logger instance )
20:39 billymg asciilifeform: it is, i had baked a classic.css theme that worked with this html
20:39 asciilifeform right, my current item is based on same
20:39 asciilifeform billymg: my vpatches are built on top of your item, i thought this was clear
20:41 billymg asciilifeform: yes, was clear, but my patch had two html variants for the chanlist: 'chan-nav-table.html' vs 'chan-nav-list.html'
20:41 dulapbot Logged on 2021-08-23 16:05:46 billymg: fought with this for quite some time actually, until eventually gave up and provided two separate chanlist templates, one based on <table> to work with classic.css and to asciilifeform's specs in lynx, and one based on <ul> which renders as a stacked list in lynx (and however you want in graphical browsers, depending on the css)
20:41 billymg your theme works with the table-based, mine works with the list-based
20:42 asciilifeform billymg: a hm, i thought the list-based piece only worx w/ the sidebaristic 'dark' theme
20:42 billymg this was because i assumed the vertical chan list in lynx was a hard req, and due to lynx's limitations could not get timestamps to sit under chan names without doing two rows (and having a weird tab order of chan, chan1, chan2, chan_ts, chan1_ts, etc...)
20:42 * asciilifeform will have to reread whole thing
20:43 billymg asciilifeform: nope, in fact had a css ready to go that would render in graphical exactly the same as you had on your theme prior
20:43 asciilifeform hmm i thought this ~was~ 'classic.css'
20:43 billymg asciilifeform: it is. two separate considerations: graphical rendering and lynx rendering
20:45 asciilifeform btw asciilifeform must confess that he does not actually use lynx with any serious frequency. simply insists that any wwwtronic item of his ~must~ behave sanely in it, because in practice this ensures reasonable behaviour across graphical browsers.
20:45 asciilifeform it is a kind of procrustean bed for www crapola.
20:45 billymg to keep that 100% 1:1 with your previous theme (in lynx), had to keep the table. in graphical browsers, can switch to <ul> based and render exactly how you had it (and even make the improvements you want, such as auto wrapping)
20:46 asciilifeform billymg: i.e. different browsers would get different html ? ( that's specifically not what asciilifeform wants )
20:46 billymg asciilifeform: no, same html, always
20:46 asciilifeform a
20:47 billymg asciilifeform: the lynx/graphical differences are just a result of lynx completely ignoring any and all css
20:47 * asciilifeform possibly confused re what in the current vpress corresponds to the item in question
20:48 billymg asciilifeform: your latest patch, style_fixes, did away with the two-row chanlist (where, roughly: <tr> chans... </tr> <tr> timestamps... </tr>)
20:48 billymg which is what broke the lynx styling
20:48 billymg i saw you added <br> tags, but lynx ignore those if used inside tables
20:48 asciilifeform billymg: correct. so far i've not found a way to make a multi-row table 'wrap'
20:49 asciilifeform anyways if billymg has an alternative variant, i'ma test it (reasonably quickly)
20:49 * asciilifeform must bbl
20:50 billymg asciilifeform: and in lynx you probably never will, lynx table rendering appears to be meant strictly for tabular data, not for layout tweaking
20:51 billymg asciilifeform: my alt variant that i recommend is what you can see currently on my logger (in lynx, in graphical would be identical to your current theme but with properly wrapping rows)
20:55 billymg asciilifeform: end result would be: 1, in lynx: what you see now on logs.bitdash.io, 2, in graphical: what you see now on logs.nosuchlabs.com. all clients (lynx, chromium, phones, etc.) would receive the same html, no server side tricks
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