Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans

← 2021-07-28 | 2021-07-30 →
00:59 asciilifeform << afaik literally ALL of the current arm products use the SAME turdgpu, 'mali'. because, elementarily, redditware.
00:59 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-28 08:44:20 punkman: << I tried using the "open sores" GPU stuff on an allwinner years ago. didn't work out, bricked the board at some point. went looking for ARM without megaton of blob, didn't find anything. thought "I'll come back in a few years"
00:59 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-27 18:04:13 punkman: "The vast majority of our customers care nothing about open source or closed binary blobs" << yeah I guess the customers just wanted them to pretend about being "open source", and they got exactly what they really wanted
01:00 asciilifeform << ftr the indeterminate-width fields of irc (and similar protocols) don't play well with udp. ( in asciilifeform's thing -- fixed-length fields. for absolutely everything, defined as it were hardware )
01:00 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-28 12:49:53 thimbronion: << Deduping absolutely required, but I think PeterL's comment was about "fixing" IRC.
01:02 asciilifeform << if you think mp wasn't aspiring to 'properly aristocratic' demise, think again. (and not so many of these to choose from -- filthy plebes 'ruined' e.g. dope OD)
01:02 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-28 06:41:11 adlai: << "People who drown don't simply drown because the river was closer to their house than the cliff, but because the drowning specifically has some sort of subconscious meaning or importance."
01:03 asciilifeform << meanwhile chimneys of google (california), microshit (washington), etc. datacenters, continue to belch
01:03 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-28 06:01:10 punkman: and some more: "Dell has stopped shipping certain highly energy-intensive gaming computers to customers in six states with new electricity consumption regulations." "This product cannot be shipped to the states of California, Colorado, Hawaii, Oregon, Vermont or Washington due to power consumption regulations"
01:05 asciilifeform looked at the fishwraps, apparently this concerned two particular 'alienware' 'gaming' boxes. (who the fuck still buys prebuilt desktops?! and why?!)
01:17 asciilifeform << phunphakt, 'gain of function'(tm)(r)(c) work has gone on re: prions for quite some time. (and obv. for same ultimate reason.)
01:17 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-28 15:23:11 punkman: "lab worker named Émilie Jaumain died at age 33, 10 years after pricking her thumb during an experiment with prion-infected mice"
01:20 asciilifeform a++ weapon, theoretically, if could be manufactured mechanically. no detector likely to exist, cannot be destroyed short of combustion, persists in soil for years, not broken down by water, sunlight, etc., no antidote and none even hypothesized to exist.
01:21 asciilifeform and fatal dose, theoretically: 1. (not gram, microgram, etc. but simply 1.)
01:21 asciilifeform of course is weapon that cannot be aimed, but not erryone is put off by this.
~ 1 hours 21 minutes ~
02:42 raw_avocado asciilifeform: what are good household sources of entropy? like coin tosses and stuff or lava lamps?
~ 21 minutes ~
03:04 asciilifeform raw_avocado: depends what means 'good' neh.
03:05 raw_avocado Well lets say i want to generate some Bitcoin private keys
03:05 asciilifeform raw_avocado: if you have nothing but a coin and time -- von neumann's debiasing algo worx just as well with paper and pen as with machines
03:05 raw_avocado Or maybe even a BIP39seed.
03:06 asciilifeform raw_avocado: if you aint in much of a hurry -- the above.
03:06 raw_avocado Well my question is what can i use a source, instead of a coin.
03:08 asciilifeform raw_avocado: there is not an 'official' correct answer to this. lotsa physical effects to choose from, and usable for so long as you understand the tradeoffs.
03:08 asciilifeform i for instance picked johnson noise for FG.
03:08 whaack !s uptime
03:08 scoopbot whaack: time since my last reconnect : 0d 5h 1m
03:09 asciilifeform the reasons for this are amply discussed in the log.
03:09 whaack PeterL: Not sure scoopbot is scoopin'
03:09 whaack manual:
03:10 asciilifeform oh nifty whaack
03:12 whaack raw_avocado: is this an open ended brainstorm type question or a real concern of yours? you could stop a stopwatch if it has miliseconds and record the last few digits a hundred times or so.
03:13 asciilifeform whaack: imho it's a little like asking 'what household object makes the best hammer?' -- buy a fucking hammer.
03:13 whaack lmfao
03:14 raw_avocado whaack: its a brainstorm open ended question
03:14 asciilifeform random bit generation aint hand-to-hand combat, where you use whatever's avail, broken bottles, shoes, etc
03:15 raw_avocado asciilifeform: gotcha
03:15 asciilifeform typically the asker is in a position where he has plenty of time to think & obtain tooling.
03:15 asciilifeform often enuff such thread goes for long enuff that asker could've built FG 2-3 times..
03:15 raw_avocado But ran into this bloke on twitter today uses a deck of cards to generata a bip39 seed, i think its kinda convoluted
03:15 raw_avocado And then i was like what are other thinks like a deck of cards, that could do well.
03:16 asciilifeform raw_avocado: nonbinary outputs are a bitch to debias by hand
03:16 asciilifeform if you find yourself in this position, use coin.
03:17 raw_avocado asciilifeform: i looked over the FG website, but i dont understand what those compenents are and how to solder them together. is there a shopping list available?
03:17 raw_avocado nonbinary outputs are a bitch to debias by hand << just mod 2?
03:18 raw_avocado re use coin << i dont want to find the best practival way, i want other ways that works just as good.
03:18 asciilifeform raw_avocado: start w/ the analogue board.
03:19 raw_avocado asciilifeform: link broke ^^
03:19 asciilifeform raw_avocado: loads fine here.
03:19 asciilifeform raw_avocado: this is nth time -- what are you using for a browser?
03:19 raw_avocado][analogue] << this is not the right one
03:20 asciilifeform raw_avocado: you must have a buggy 'greasemonkey' script or sumthing similar installed on your end. you are the only one who is getting this effect, to date no one reported.
03:20 raw_avocado LimeChat its prolly interpreting the link wrong.
03:20 asciilifeform raw_avocado: read via log www.
03:21 raw_avocado Anyway i saw this, i dot know whose symbols mean, and there is no legend
03:22 asciilifeform raw_avocado: horowitz & hill (or your preferred schoolbook from own country)
03:23 raw_avocado whaack: the milisecods one, yeah exactly stuff like that.
03:23 asciilifeform there is 'no royal road'.
03:24 mats raw_avocado: california
03:24 asciilifeform raw_avocado: i aint trolling. rng is a safety-critical component if you're a rsa or bitcoin user. if you had to jump with a parachute tomorrow, would you ask randos on a forum how to sew one ?
03:25 asciilifeform 'but i dunno how to sew'
03:25 asciilifeform 1st you learn. on something other than parachutes.
03:25 raw_avocado mats: im waiting on a guitar and some other stuff from the US, been months still not here(in the UK currently)
03:25 mats sucks
03:26 asciilifeform raw_avocado: maybe write to diana coman, see if will sell you a FG
03:26 asciilifeform (uk)
03:26 asciilifeform i don't expect she needs hers anymoar
03:27 raw_avocado asciilifeform: yes, you are right, and i am not trying to find a macgyver substitute.
03:27 raw_avocado Ok, ill ping her
03:28 asciilifeform iirc there was another fg user in uk, but the name escapes me, and he got it 2ndhand
03:28 asciilifeform possibly cruciform
03:28 asciilifeform !q seen-anywhere cruciform
03:28 dulapbot cruciform last seen in #ossasepia on 2020-09-21 17:10:25: also, would you kindly recommend an OS to attempt the installation on? I've had a look around republican blogs, and am having trouble finding a known-working one
~ 37 minutes ~
04:06 raw_avocado asciilifeform: i read in some of your posts that you dont think whitening entropy is a good idea. Why?
04:06 raw_avocado I failed to find anywhere any mention of this thing, and in the logs there dosent seem to be a detailed explanation, or maybe i am using the search function wrongly.
04:16 asciilifeform raw_avocado:
04:16 asciilifeform more discussion of this than probably anyone could want.
04:26 raw_avocado 10x
04:35 * asciilifeform to bed.
~ 58 minutes ~
05:34 raw_avocado lol
05:34 dulapbot (trilema) 2015-10-29 mircea_popescu: you want to fuck your computer, that's all there is to it.
~ 43 minutes ~
06:17 verisimilitude I'd like mine added as well, PeterL:
06:19 verisimilitude On that note, I'll link to my latest book review; despite the popular book, I think it turned out rather nice.
~ 1 hours 58 minutes ~
08:18 punkman recently read autobiographical book from famous greek bank robber. quite the character. pulled off helicopter escape twice from same prison. interestingly never killed anyone, even after countless armed encounters with police.
08:18 punkman apparently english version is coming out this year. will share if I get pdf.
08:25 punkman "“I never showed disdain for the value of human life; yet I found the act of taking a life perfectly legitimate and acceptable, under certain circumstances and with good reason, as when “wider” freedom was concerned. Because death is the inescapable consequence of life. On the contrary, causing pain by torturing is something horrible,
08:25 punkman something heinous.”"
08:28 punkman "once you are an outlaw, an ever-increasing amount of resources are required to maintain your freedom". as the banks made the robbing less lucrative, kidnapped a rich dude. "When they dropped him off, Vassilis remembers, Haitoglou left them with a joke: “Guys, if only it didn’t cost that much, I’d very much like to have another adventure with
08:28 punkman you!”"
08:41 punkman fun opsec tale from the book: after another kidnapping, they cracked open a prepaid sim phone. you had to activate this by calling a number. they were driving down the road, guy saw pizza billboard, called pizza place.
08:43 punkman they called in for ransom, eventually got the ransom, let the guy go. many months later they had rented a villa, buried some money in the yard, laying low etc. cops do raid, catch everyone.
08:46 punkman turns out they had later activated a 2nd prepaid phone, accidentally using same pizza place number. so cops were tracing ransom phone that had made only two phone calls before being discarded, pizza place and asking for ransom.
~ 3 hours 48 minutes ~
12:34 PeterL << Hmm, it is not doing the one thing it is supposed to do. I will hack on this a bit and see what is going on.
12:34 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-28 23:09:45 whaack: PeterL: Not sure scoopbot is scoopin'
12:37 PeterL << What is 10x ?
12:37 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-29 00:26:03 raw_avocado: 10x
~ 38 minutes ~
13:15 punkman PeterL: tenx -> thanks
~ 49 minutes ~
14:04 scoopbot New post: The Comms Chronicle
14:04 scoopbot New post: Defeating Vendor Lock-Ins: "Liebert GXT4."
14:04 scoopbot New post: A Review of John McCarthy's Original Lisp Paper
14:06 PeterL sorry about spam, I think it is almost there
14:06 scoopbot New post: Overview of the Paleo Diet
14:15 PeterL scoopbot was just really excited to talk, should be calmer now
14:20 scoopbot New post: Just a Test
14:24 PeterL Aha! Now it works
14:28 PeterL asciilifeform: bug report for watchglass: irc_dbg = cfg.get("irc", "irc_dbg") <-- this should get wrapped in an int()
14:39 asciilifeform PeterL: ty
~ 3 hours 6 minutes ~
17:46 billymg asciilifeform: i finally got around to manually importing the logs for this channel starting from the split:
17:46 billymg asciilifeform: do you mind if i have my bot idle in here so that i can keep the logs on my www in sync?
17:47 asciilifeform billymg: please do. keep in mind that you'll need to patch the logotron.
17:47 dulapbot Logged on 2021-06-16 13:46:57 asciilifeform: << i had to commit this kludge warcrime to get the bot to talk to 'unreal irc'.
17:47 asciilifeform billymg: lemme know if need help with this.
17:47 billymg ok, will give it a shot and let you know if i run into anything
17:55 PeterL asciilifeform: can you add scoopbot to the list of bots for colorizing in the logs?
17:56 asciilifeform PeterL: will do, 1s
17:56 PeterL k, thanks
17:57 asciilifeform PeterL: done
18:09 billymg test
18:10 asciilifeform billymg: seems to work
18:10 bitbot Logged on 2021-07-29 18:13:51 billymg: test
18:10 asciilifeform a++.
18:11 billymg excellent, gonna just restart it to change its command trigger
18:12 billymg !. uptime
18:12 bitbot billymg: time since my last reconnect : 0d 0h 0m
18:12 billymg neat
18:12 billymg i wanted that nick on freenode but it was already taken
18:20 billymg i started getting this error from freenode sometime this morning as well, although it didn't seem to kick me from the network
18:20 billymg it was, however, annoying enough that i turned off that network in my znc config
18:30 raw_avocado asciilifeform: some people telling me that selfies are a good source of entropy, and of course they hash these images
18:30 raw_avocado I am thinking, that cameras reduce noise when taking pictures, and thus reducing entropy, no?
18:31 raw_avocado And if cameras would apply some kind of filer(like reduce brithness or something) that would actually make it easy for an attacker to reduce the space?
~ 22 minutes ~
18:53 punkman camera sensors and software introduce a lot of bias
18:56 punkman you'd want to take multiple photos or video frames
19:02 mats raw_avocado: how long are you gonna go on crowd sourcing information from reddit and quizzing the poor souls in here about the content
19:04 raw_avocado mats: i am coming into contact with this a lot of these topics for the first time, and i am trying to understand whats happening in fact.
19:17 asciilifeform raw_avocado: let's take an elementary failure case and work it out :
19:17 raw_avocado asciilifeform: please do so
19:17 asciilifeform raw_avocado: suppose the camera fails in such a way that you get a stream of zeros instead of the usual frames.
19:18 asciilifeform ( or, equivalently, /dev/whatevercamera is replaced in your program, somehow, with /dev/zero )
19:18 asciilifeform raw_avocado: will you be able to tell that the output is now easily predictable ?
19:18 raw_avocado No
19:19 asciilifeform so then.
19:20 raw_avocado Yeah, but cant i say the same thing about the FG or any source of entropu, what if it fails in some way how can you tell the string is not random?
19:23 asciilifeform raw_avocado: failure in iron rng typically happens in the analogue component. if the digitizer/post-processor 'whitens', the failure will not be detectable (via sample & util such as 'ent') because hash makes even /dev/zero into a soup which passes all statistical tests, despite being trivially predictable.
19:24 asciilifeform raw_avocado: if you had actually read the log pointers, would know this.
19:24 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-29 00:16:25 asciilifeform: raw_avocado:
19:24 raw_avocado Yes i get that part, as in i can hash numbers from 1 to 10^5 and then hash them. If i run tests on that, the statistics pass on the hash function not on the input
19:25 raw_avocado Ive read some of the threads yesturday, not all.
19:26 asciilifeform raw_avocado: camera, in fact, is a fairly good source of entropy. but it gives great temptation to user, to pipe it directly through a hash, so to resemble a MB/s+ rng; but in reality it gives approx. same actual entropy as FG ( < 10kB/s )
19:27 asciilifeform if you apply von neumann debiaser to the bits comprising the frame, as many times as req'd to match the statistical quality of FG's output -- will get similar bandwidth.
19:28 asciilifeform but i've yet to see someone who is using camera as trng do this. (btw if you must do so, copper foil over the objective.)
19:28 raw_avocado Well, the idea was not to use it as an RNG for the box, but use a picture to create a BIP39 seed.
19:29 asciilifeform raw_avocado: lemme get this straight, you simply need what, 256bits of entropy ? once ?
19:29 raw_avocado In this example yes, and the question was if a selfie would serve as a good souce.
19:29 asciilifeform if you had used a coin , would've already been done a while ago, lol
19:29 dulapbot Logged on 2021-07-28 23:05:34 asciilifeform: raw_avocado: if you have nothing but a coin and time -- von neumann's debiasing algo worx just as well with paper and pen as with machines
19:31 asciilifeform raw_avocado: it is still unclear to me whether you are interested in understanding what makes for a 'good source', or simply looking for cookbook recipes
19:31 raw_avocado asciilifeform: i dont need a source of entropy for my use rn. i want to understand how these various methods would work, and how good they would be.
19:32 asciilifeform raw_avocado: moar log pointers, if you're genuinely interested in subj.
19:34 raw_avocado asciilifeform: ok ill do some more reading, and prolly return with dumb questions again
19:34 asciilifeform raw_avocado: i'm happy to answer q's, but would prefer that noobs do some reading 1st and get elementary grasp of the subj.
19:35 asciilifeform ( finally found the particular thread was looking for )
19:35 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-05-22 asciilifeform: and yes, this is still same old tests, nothing magically different about them, there will ~never~ be a mechanical test for 'good rng'
19:36 thimbronion asciilifeform: I'm looking at adding a hash to the UDP packets sent by my toy. My understanding is that in your design, all UDP packets will have a hash of the cyphertext either prepended or appended. Is this correct?
19:37 raw_avocado asciilifeform: 10x
19:41 thimbronion asciilifeform: in more detail the packet will look something like H(C+S) concatenated to C, where S is some shared secret.
~ 19 minutes ~
20:00 punkman thimbronion: is this a checksum?
20:02 thimbronion punkman: it's not checking for errors per se, just that it came from a trusted source.
20:05 asciilifeform thimbronion: it's a little moar complicated, but yes.
20:06 asciilifeform thimbronion: i'ma try and get the spec draft out this weekend, described in some detail this and other moving parts.
20:08 asciilifeform ftr keccak is theoretically immune to length extension attacks. however i haven't a fast implementation of it, and leaving it out of the spec, instead using bad old sha512.
20:08 asciilifeform asciilifeform's protocol comes with a 1byte version field, so theoretically can switch hashes later on.
20:14 thimbronion asciilifeform: thanks.
20:24 magnus punkman: interesting story above re: cell usage by kidnappers
20:25 magnus punkman: gotta wonder whether any of'em had burner and non-burner turned on at the same time
20:25 magnus punkman: tight correlation in carrier tower stats could lead to being ID'd and eventually DX'd...
20:26 magnus assuming DX is not automatic at this point, esp. for cheap burner phones...
~ 53 minutes ~
21:20 whaack billymg: I have a prototype web interface online available here. Some things to note: 1, I've had some issues with my browser giving me security warnings, I think it was because i had a bad virtualhosts file but it may be because points to a different ip than 2) This is a prototype and I wouldn't recommend building off of it right away
21:20 whaack because the api may change from under your feet
21:21 billymg whaack: nice!
21:21 shinohai neato whaack
21:22 whaack ty!
21:25 billymg
21:27 billymg whaack: is there a way to get a machine readable version of the results? (whether tab, space, semicolon, however delimited)?
21:27 billymg csv, json, whatever is easiest / makes the most sense on your end
21:31 whaack billymg: i'm still thinking about the right answer to this. There is a structure atm, it's just a bit cryptic (i.e. first 6 lines for viwe-txn are always the same, so you can get the hash, block height, index, and size, then next line is inputs, then you do a (while nextline is not OUTPUTS readline ... ) etc.
21:32 whaack When I write out the spec I'm likely going to write a python client that can deserialize the info that you can use.
21:34 whaack Gotta go for now , i'll be back on tomorrow or later
21:34 billymg whaack: ah, neato. a python library for interacting with your api would certainly be useful
21:35 billymg looking forward to reading / trying it out
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