Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2021-05-02 | 2021-05-04 → ↓
12:05 billymg asciilifeform: i wrote a simple btc network crawler that uses watchglass for node probing and dumps the results into a postgres db. it's been running since yesterday afternoon, here are some stats so far: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=yTLT
12:06 billymg my reason for doing so was because both bitnodes and coin.dance stopped tracking trb with their crawlers. i used to be able to check from time to time to see how many trb nodes are out there
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12:07 billymg next step is to create a simple www dashboard to display these stats
12:13 asciilifeform billymg: neato. ftr if you recall i wrote 'watchglass' specifically because heathen crawlers deliberately ignore trb
12:14 asciilifeform billymg: i rec to look at the 'peers' knob, can use it to recurse.
12:14 billymg asciilifeform: yep, that's what it's doing
12:14 asciilifeform a
12:14 billymg i started with a seed list of the nodes that you poll in this channel, and all the rest have been grabbed from running peers recursively
12:14 billymg i need to rewrite some of it though, it's not doing it in the most efficient manner currently
12:15 asciilifeform billymg: how didja handle the extra byte in the header from prb nodes ?
12:15 asciilifeform (specifically in 'peers' cmd)
12:15 billymg asciilifeform: hrm, i guess i didn't...
12:15 asciilifeform it makes for illusion of '0 peers' when polling'em
12:15 billymg perhaps that's why so many are returning 0 peers
12:16 billymg and probably why after ~16hrs i'm only up to ~1700 nodes
12:16 asciilifeform see also
12:16 snsabot Logged on 2020-03-01 14:38:20 asciilifeform: shinohai: this btw confirmed. i did experiment, if one sends that extra byte, prb noades do in fact send addrs. (and yes some of'em ipv6, have to be thrown out)
12:17 asciilifeform billymg: of course, if you only want to poll a continuous chain of trb -- the classic behaviour is desirable
12:17 asciilifeform the extra byte is only of concern if you want to poll 'all nodes on planet3' such as are on public net
12:18 billymg asciilifeform: awesome, thanks, i'll look into that
12:19 billymg so currently only works with "TRB Compat" species?
12:19 billymg jumpers=0x1
12:19 asciilifeform iirc whaack was making something like billymg's thing. whaack what happened to that..?
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12:19 asciilifeform billymg: the 'peers' cmd ? correct
12:20 billymg asciilifeform: yeah, for 'peers' cmd -- good to know
12:23 billymg asciilifeform: i think whaack was working on a replacement block explorer. this thing i'm building is much simpler, just a network crawler
12:28 shinohai wb billymg
12:40 billymg shinohai: ty, was caught up with some fiat work for a bit
~ 16 minutes ~
12:56 shinohai Nice work on the crawler, having it dump to postgres db extremely useful.
13:01 billymg thanks, yeah and i plan to publish the patch for it once the code is where i want it. i'm also doing this as part of what will be a recruitment effort
13:01 snsabot (alethepedia) 2021-04-26 billymg: i also created a chan at #billymg a couple days ago, and i'm working on a website to do some recruiting (it will present itself as a more welcoming on-ramp to V and TRB than the logs), hopefully attract some of the not complete morons
13:02 billymg seeing the total trb node count creates a "number go up" metric that might incentivize more people to run trb nodes
13:03 billymg idea is to have a www with these stats and some intro guides/overviews for V and TRB
13:03 billymg and the wot, etc.
13:04 billymg whether or not it actually accomplishes anything, tbd, but i personally want the stats published somewhere so it's worth me doing it
~ 26 minutes ~
13:30 asciilifeform billymg: do ping jurov re this effort, whenever he returns from sea. imho would be a++ use for some of the tbf piggy.
13:34 asciilifeform billymg: while on subj : i'm curious , what your gadget outputs for e.g. SELECT * from nodes where jumpers='0x1' and user_agent not like '%therealbitcoin.org%'
13:35 asciilifeform i.e. what useragents correspond to trb-compat. but NOT trb per se.
13:38 billymg asciilifeform: ack re: pinging jurov. will do
13:38 billymg asciilifeform: query results: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=sMBJ
13:38 asciilifeform billymg: ty!
13:40 asciilifeform this is iirc similar to what i found last yr. the 0.8.x is plausible, these were afaik the last trb-compat (in the header flag bits sense) heathen clients. the 0.10.x/0.11.x tho is, i suspect, camouflaged something-elses -- these do NOT present trb-like flags normally at all
13:41 * asciilifeform suspects that all kinds of custom proggies in the wild present heathen-like useragent, simply to fool crawlers and whatever other heathen peers
13:45 billymg asciilifeform: so clients can spoof jumpers as easily as they can spoof user agent strings?
13:46 asciilifeform billymg: of course. see src.
13:46 asciilifeform it's simply a bitmask sent in the hello packet.
13:47 asciilifeform see 'species_heuristic' routine.
13:47 billymg oh, lol, right. it's right there in watchglass.conf
13:47 asciilifeform aha
13:47 billymg asciilifeform: have you found a heuristic then that is not spoof-able for determining trb-compat?
13:47 asciilifeform billymg: there are of course other obvious indicators of prbism -- the sending of garbage (from trb pov) commands; or the extra byte thing mentioned earlier
13:48 asciilifeform billymg: the 'proof of the pudding is in the eating' -- if a peer behaves ~precisely~ like trb, then for all practical purposes it is indistinguishable. so far not found any that do this but not advertised as trb useragent.
13:49 asciilifeform but will admit that did not search exhaustively or even really systematically.
13:50 asciilifeform billymg: really 'trb heuristic' has to be about ~avoiding~ certain behaviours -- e.g. if peer triggers 'malleus' -- it aint trb. etc
13:53 billymg asciilifeform: ah, interesting. now i'm wondering what the crawler could do to coax a node into sending a 'heathen command' in a reasonable amount of time
13:54 asciilifeform billymg: normally needs no coaxing, it happens within first 10s or so
13:54 verisimilitude What does PRB expand to?
13:54 asciilifeform verisimilitude: was iirc originally mp's term -- expanded variously, 'public relations bitcoin', coupla other decodings
13:55 asciilifeform verisimilitude: it refers to the 'official' client post-2012ish, when project was hijacked by wreckers
13:55 verisimilitude Alright; my first guess included ``phony'', but this doesn't handle the R.
13:55 billymg 'power rangers bitcoin' another iirc -- personally i like the public relations bitcoin expansion
13:56 asciilifeform verisimilitude: trb, in contrast, is a branch of the orig. client maintained by asciilifeform & co. ('co' is currently not large at all..)
13:57 verisimilitude I take it the only reason PRB wouldn't damn Bitcoin is due to the continued use of other clients, right?
13:58 asciilifeform verisimilitude: the answer to this q is not definitively known (to asciilifeform.) i doubt that 'only trb saved': its public footprint was never large. and, there do exist compatible clients, evidently -- is what the survey thrds are largely about
13:59 asciilifeform much of what is publicly 'known' re the bitcoin network factually consists of disinfo, spread by professional disinfo artists
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14:00 asciilifeform the most trivial example, already cited by billymg -- the various public node crawlers hide -- as a matter of policy -- the existence of trb.
14:04 verisimilitude It's the same way when articles mention ``open source'' and never Free Software. Some people could get curious.
14:08 asciilifeform verisimilitude: btw this switcheroo was engineered by a specific judas goat -- eric s. raymond
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14:08 asciilifeform he was paid 30 pieces-of-silver^H^H^H^H^Hmillion$ for it, too
14:09 asciilifeform ( how did he end? see also.. )
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14:09 snsabot Logged on 2021-02-12 20:15:20 asciilifeform: at any rate, very happy to hear that he sold bitcoin. hope to live to see him beg for spare change like eric raymond .
14:09 asciilifeform last i knew -- did not, sadly, hang, unlike the old judas, quite yet
14:13 verisimilitude ESR is strange, in that I respect his soft opinions more than those technical; it's usually reversed.
14:14 asciilifeform verisimilitude: the ideal judas, arguably, is one who has 95% 'good respectable material'
~ 16 minutes ~
14:31 asciilifeform meanwhile, in unrelated lulz : given 'gpu shortage of 2021', prices 2-3x (or moar) vs 'peacetime' commonplace. and nao hilarious scamology : EMPTY BOXES from videocard selling for coupla hundy $ !
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14:32 asciilifeform presumably these are purchased by scammers, to repackage a card with embrittled solder joins (by year+ of shitcoin mining) as 'new' and sell for 600-700 etc
14:32 * asciilifeform can't think of any equally-plausible hypothesis re why empty crates suddenly worth moar than the card itself was in '19
14:37 verisimilitude I'd think fools not paying attention would be the cause.
14:41 asciilifeform verisimilitude: could be part of it
14:49 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035266 << this is amazing. never knew this story.
14:49 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-03 14:09:25 asciilifeform: ( how did he end? see also.. )
14:52 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035264 << was "Cathedral and Bazaar" the main publication where the betrayal was committed?
14:52 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-03 14:08:31 asciilifeform: verisimilitude: btw this switcheroo was engineered by a specific judas goat -- eric s. raymond
14:54 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035261 << I had not believed in this conspiracy of experts giving purposely bad technical advice until you and Popescu came along and proved its existence
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14:54 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-03 13:59:28 asciilifeform: much of what is publicly 'known' re the bitcoin network factually consists of disinfo, spread by professional disinfo artists
14:57 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: re: esr -- was not only 1 publication, but a lengthy campaign of artful misdirection
14:59 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035280 << the unfortunate thing is that, to 100% grasp that the wreckers -- are wreckers, requires to read and grasp the src. and have good model of classical bitcoin in yer head. something that most users did not and prolly will not rise to.
14:59 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-03 14:54:54 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035261 << I had not believed in this conspiracy of experts giving purposely bad technical advice until you and Popescu came along and proved its existence
15:02 asciilifeform without such grasp, it's a contest of pr, of religions, and the folx printing the glossy mags, blathering on tv, etc. normally -- if not 'win', then at least hold ground enough to harvest an endless procession of morons and make life substantially moar complicated even for non-idiots
15:06 whaack http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035219 < project got put to the side for a while. But today I pick up where I left off
15:06 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-03 12:19:15 asciilifeform: iirc whaack was making something like billymg's thing. whaack what happened to that..?
15:06 asciilifeform wb whaack !
15:06 whaack ty
15:06 asciilifeform whaack: lemme know if need help w/ protocol mechanics, etc
15:06 whaack will do
15:07 asciilifeform (imho the wg src is enuff of ref material for subj. but could be mistaken )
15:07 gregorynyssa I was hoping to build something like your Watchglass as well.
15:08 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: imho is a trivial proggy (i baked it from my original log bot, plus a little glue to speak basic trb protocol)
15:09 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: IIRC, you plan to write a complete P2P engine (node) for Bitcin from scratch down the road, is that right?
15:09 whaack looks like my node caught up based on your last !poll... is my node actually doing a service if it struggles to keep up to what seems to be the longest chain?
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15:09 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: i have a good % of one written
15:10 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: here's the db back-end, for instance.
15:10 asciilifeform not attempted, of yet, 'whole node', this needs full ffa for the crypto side, aint there yet.
15:10 * asciilifeform has pov that 'if writing replacement client, it is to have ZERO external linkages'
15:11 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: when that day comes, you will be a hero.
15:11 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: to 3 people, lol
15:12 gregorynyssa =')
15:12 verisimilitude No, I'd also be interested, so four.
15:12 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: i'll readily admit that did not hurry to do this (and still not hurrying) because the orig. trb ~mostly worx~ for all practical purpose
15:12 asciilifeform i've been able to keep it going (i.e. eats fresh blox from planet, sends/receives coinz) w/ trivial changes (most recently, the wedge fix w/ aid of mod6)
15:14 asciilifeform now, otoh, there are things that the asinine architecture of classical trb makes very difficult (e.g., reliable iron walletism; crawling of world tx history; fast but 100% solid block verification) that one could achieve w/ a new one
15:15 asciilifeform problem is that the folx who stand to make substantial dough from such a thing, aint about to pay a broken cent
15:16 asciilifeform see also re the general case.
15:20 gregorynyssa for the node, you plan to use mmap(2) intensively and leverage the huge address-space of x64, is that right?
15:20 gregorynyssa give each block its own permanent virtual memory-address.
15:20 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: for the tx db -- aha. see the 'cryostat' demo, is self-explanatory imho.
15:21 asciilifeform doesn't rely on x86 per se, necessarily. mmapism worx on all archs that have any kind of reasonable mmu.
15:21 gregorynyssa this is bound to save a lot of code compared to TRB.
15:21 asciilifeform aha.
15:21 asciilifeform 'correct notation is worth 80 iq pts'(tm)
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15:22 asciilifeform would run in o(1), too.
15:22 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035316 << was that from Kenneth Iverson? I recall that he said something similar.
15:22 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-03 15:21:46 asciilifeform: 'correct notation is worth 80 iq pts'(tm)
15:22 asciilifeform iirc
15:23 gregorynyssa APL also made liberal use of memory-mapping.
15:23 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: i wasn't aware that apl defined implementation detail on the level of mmu ?
15:24 gregorynyssa not the language itself, but the implementations provided such features.
15:24 asciilifeform eh pretty much all posix-adjacent world provides.
15:25 asciilifeform (in microshit land, dysfunctional, but even there)
15:25 gregorynyssa mmap(2) represents one of the most decisive arguments for why 64 bit computing is desirable or even necessary
15:25 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: dunno about you, but asciilifeform routinely works with data sets which don't come remotely near to fitting in 4GB.
15:26 asciilifeform so i dun see the 'debate' re 'is 64b address necessary'
15:27 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: only a fraction of "big data" work actually requires holding the entire dataset in memory, though.
15:27 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: entirely aware.
15:29 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: in principle can operate on just about any dataset with just about arbitrarily short address width. but yer then stuck emulating a wider cpu in software, via banking and similar hacks.
15:29 verisimilitude How surprising that UNIX provides a decent interface; it only had to take it from Multics.
15:30 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i gotta add that mmapism would not even be necessary on a 3rdlaw-compliant machine.
15:30 asciilifeform ( see also. )
15:31 verisimilitude I've read naught concerning memory-mapping and APL.
15:32 asciilifeform verisimilitude: there could easily be a language where data is presumed to be persistent, and no explicit concept of writing to disk exists. but apl afaik never was such.
15:32 asciilifeform ( there perhaps was a variant where this was the case, given that aplism coexisted with prevalence of magnetic core memories. but was there such a variant? )
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15:33 asciilifeform ^ q for aplists.
15:33 verisimilitude APL's model throws away results afterwards.
15:34 verisimilitude Results may be printed, stored to variable, passed along, and little else.
15:35 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035337 << I was under the impression they had this. will check later.
15:35 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-03 15:32:58 asciilifeform: ( there perhaps was a variant where this was the case, given that aplism coexisted with prevalence of magnetic core memories. but was there such a variant? )
15:37 verisimilitude There's the concept of a workspace, but I don't use them.
15:39 asciilifeform before this escapes :
15:39 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035174 << not sure why to suppose that this was for any other than electoral pr purposes
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15:39 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-02 18:18:42 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035078 << Bush Jr distanced himself from his New England heritage, identified with the South, and converted to Southern-centric denomination. Jeb Bush married a Hispanic Catholic.
15:40 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035176 << of what would you say consists the heritage such as was not-passed-down ?
15:40 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-02 18:19:47 gregorynyssa: not saying you are wrong. wealth + influence are indeed being passed down. but in this case, the Yankee (ie. WASP) heritage is not.
15:40 verisimilitude Those comments on the third law are nearly a decade old now.
15:40 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035185 << my logic here is from first principles. take 2 places where there ~was~ a genuine Troo 100% swap-out of elites : 1790s fr; 1920s ru. quite detectable to naked eye, the effects. in usa at no point such a thing took place afaik.
15:40 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-02 18:25:45 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035174 << what sparked my curiosity was your suggestion (maybe I misinterpreted) that there might be a secret community of very pure Yankees at the top of society.
15:41 asciilifeform verisimilitude: indeed. observe that nothing pertinent in fact , afaik, happened, in entire decade.
15:42 verisimilitude Gee, I've started my work, at the least. Just wait, any year now.
15:42 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035187 << 'invisible' positions. not 100% undetectable tho, no one cancelled 'skull & bones', 'bohemian grove', masons still have a palatial structure in washington which dwarfs the usg buildings, etc
15:42 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-02 18:27:46 gregorynyssa: given lack of Yankees on Supreme Court and other visible positions of authority (incl. academia) the possibility of this pure Yankee community secretly existing would be entertaining.
15:43 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035191 << entirely aware. fwiw i did not get the fundamental idea from him.
15:43 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-02 18:30:14 gregorynyssa: he gets his religious history wrong in many places, such as his reference to the Munster Rebellion, and confusion of Quakerism with Mainline Protestantism.
15:43 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035194 << still, more or less, happening, 'under different sauce'
15:43 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-02 18:41:42 gregorynyssa: they engaged in the shaming of adulterers. they burned witches.
15:45 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-02#1035195 << current lizards impose the evolution, but Humans Exempt(tm)(r) doctrine.
15:45 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-02 18:43:46 gregorynyssa: they believed in Creationism. they would abhor modern psychology/psychiatry b/c of its Behavioralist and Darwinist underpinnings.
15:45 snsabot Logged on 2020-08-12 13:46:36 asciilifeform: the folx butthurt from darwin, split into 2 camps -- 'it didn't happen, see here in bible' and 'it happened, but doesn't matter'
15:45 asciilifeform hmm another regex bug??
15:45 asciilifeform nm
15:46 * asciilifeform all caught up, finally, on l0gz
15:53 verisimilitude A decent solution to these hard problems, asciilifeform, is to use the excesses of hardware to avoid them. If I restricted a system to hundreds of megabytes, say, I could easily take inefficient backups constantly, without needing to solve the real issue.
15:53 asciilifeform verisimilitude: if you recall, this is what the lispm people actually did
15:54 asciilifeform verisimilitude: they endlessly wrote 'worlds' to tape
15:54 asciilifeform (i.e. memory dump of paused machine)
15:54 verisimilitude I wasn't aware.
15:55 asciilifeform this, turns out, is not a substitute for actually solving it. illustrated rather well by e.g. this incident
15:55 snsabot Logged on 2020-07-03 20:25:12 asciilifeform: this sounds great until becomes habit. iirc was why phf never published the orig logger, he found that it was not reducible to a linear src snapshot
15:56 verisimilitude Similarly, a good way to take advantage of fast and reliable enough networks is to make each message small enough to likely fit in a single packet.
15:56 asciilifeform verisimilitude: pretty tight space if including e.g. rsa signatures.
15:56 verisimilitude I'd rather have something limited which works perfectly, than what I've currently.
15:57 asciilifeform (specifically, udp weighing >512b is only variably reliable)
15:57 asciilifeform arguably very separate subj tho, from orig thrd.
15:57 feedbot http://thimbron.com/2021/05/alethepedia-improvements/ << Thimbron -- Alethepedia Improvements
15:58 verisimilitude Elision can help with this, which is my plan. Mine encoding scheme uses four octets for a word and punctuation.
15:59 asciilifeform verisimilitude: compression schemes cannot solve '10 pounds of shit for a 8 pound bag' in the general case.
16:04 verisimilitude I know, although people act as if compressing something inefficient were acceptable.
16:06 asciilifeform verisimilitude: are you old enuff to remember 'doublespace' ?
16:07 asciilifeform ( subj. )
16:07 asciilifeform verisimilitude: point is not simply that compression costs cpu cycles. but that in some % of cases inescapably (and provably) ~must~ result in ~larger~ payload.
16:08 verisimilitude Oh, that page requires very new TLS.
16:08 asciilifeform https://archive.is/wip/5kpsm if/when loads.
16:09 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i'ma summarize. 'doublespace' was a proggy which misleadingly claimed to 'double yer hdd' by transparently compressing/decompressing files
16:09 verisimilitude I don't generally think of Elision as mere compression, but it does use more space when a word is smaller than an index.
16:10 asciilifeform or if a string aint in the index at all
16:11 verisimilitude I discuss this and more in the recently rewritten article.
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16:12 verisimilitude Amusingly, an archive link isn't causing me grief for once.
16:13 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i recall this piece.
16:13 verisimilitude I entirely rewrote it days ago.
16:13 asciilifeform verisimilitude: you may find interesting that in world of mechanized ~music~ in '80s-'90s there appeared solutions falling in erry place in the delineated spectrum
16:14 asciilifeform original 'midi' format contained strictly notes/temporal hints
16:15 asciilifeform later on, however, various folx came out with 'patch' formats (e.g. 'MOD') where the actual instrument samples were carried along, prefixed to the note sequence
16:15 asciilifeform so that composer was not constrained to the predefined instruments, and could use e.g. his dog
16:16 asciilifeform both of these technologies largely forgotten, music commonly nao is distributed as a waveform and not usefully rearrangeable by end 'consumer'.
16:17 asciilifeform fwiw at one pt asciilifeform proposed a similar, to 'MOD', encoding for texts.
16:17 snsabot (trilema) 2017-07-22 asciilifeform: at the cost of a bit of log clutter, let's indulge asciilifeform's crackpottery, and lay out 妓 ( U+5993 : whore ) :
16:17 verisimilitude I'm aware Elision is similar to MIDI, yes. I've already realized that great storage savings require something approaches its source form. Since this is naturally easier to manipulate, copyright cretins will resist it where possible.
16:17 asciilifeform naturally.
16:18 asciilifeform almost a litmus for nifty computerizations : do copyrasts rise up against it ?
16:19 verisimilitude Regardless of any prior art, I independently created this. I'd probably be interested in discussing this other system, once I read those logs.
16:20 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i suspect that quite a few folx independently derived similar schemes.
16:20 asciilifeform but you won't hear about it from 'lugenpress'.
16:23 verisimilitude It may be the case most good ideas are like this, but mine ego greatly enjoys phrasing it as ``independently created'', which is also the truth.
16:23 verisimilitude That log snippet is rather bare.
16:24 asciilifeform verisimilitude: quite a few ideas automagically visit folx who rise to sufficient grasp of $subject
16:24 asciilifeform this is a regular thing and one gets used to processing it w/out emotion (or cannot function well as researcher)
16:25 verisimilitude I firmly believe those who obsess over something, and are capable, will eventually have novel ideas.
16:25 * asciilifeform for instance had an unpublished crackpottery in early 2000s that attempted to solve the same problem as the eventual '09 bitcoinism.
16:26 asciilifeform ^ as did many other folx.
16:27 verisimilitude Unlike other media, text is effectively already shared in its source form, not that I care about the trends.
16:27 asciilifeform then of course there are the 'historic' cases, e.g. where a telegraph in ru existed 7y prior to morse (but 'military secret' derpitude), c. cocks and his rsa (british seekrit) prior to rivest, etc
16:29 asciilifeform in related lulz. (warning -- scanola)
16:30 verisimilitude Give me the gist; I've no PDF reader, currently.
16:31 asciilifeform verisimilitude: lengthy and heavily censored usg internal report re harassment of non-usg cryptographers in era of dawn of pc crypto
16:31 asciilifeform (tldr -- 'denies errything' while 'lady doth protest too much' )
16:34 verisimilitude While I think of it, I do look for systems similar to mine, and have found nothing resembling neither the MMC nor Elision.
16:35 verisimilitude There are some key ideas in Elision that make it a model of language, not typical compression.
16:37 asciilifeform verisimilitude: attempts to conclusively nail down model of even 1 particular natural lang have been nailing practitioners since early '50s. it is -- in very subtle ways -- considerably harder problem than 1st appears.
16:37 snsabot (trilema) 2018-06-21 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: google translator is pretty much same 1970s lultron as produced 'the vodka is tasty but the meat -- rotten' from 'spirit is willing but flesh is weak', famously
16:38 asciilifeform it's where conlang culture (as it exists today, esperantists apart) originated from.
16:40 verisimilitude I'm only modelling what is certain with my methods.
16:41 verisimilitude In particular, ``understanding'' is no part of it.
16:43 asciilifeform maybe i misunderstand, but either you have '0 understanding of input req'd' and then what you got is a text compression scheme; or yer thing is aware of finer structure and therefore does req some understanding of fine structure.
16:43 asciilifeform which is it?
16:46 verisimilitude I'm using the word differently than an AI program would.
16:47 verisimilitude So, as far as English is concerned, it will basically ``compress'' entire words to table indices, and each index could have some metadata for automated grammar checking.
16:47 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i tend to use it in g. chaitin's sense, of 'predict'. e.g. once you understand how one generates 3.14159... , can get any number of digits you like
16:47 verisimilitude Was the rewritten article read?
16:47 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i'ma read it shortly
16:48 * asciilifeform hands atm mostly full
16:49 verisimilitude Now, with Latin, I'd like to pair words with declensions and conjugations, which is better than what can reasonably be done with English.
16:49 verisimilitude It's no rush; I'll still be here.
16:50 verisimilitude I'm becoming so much better with my chording keyboard, asciilifeform; I'm happy to have tried it because of what I've read here.
16:50 asciilifeform a++
16:51 asciilifeform verisimilitude: and this, as i understand, is with a rather rough commercial kbd. picture what could do with a proper (custom) one.
16:51 verisimilitude I've been using it almost exclusively for months.
16:51 asciilifeform neato
16:51 verisimilitude Yes.
16:54 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2017-07-22#1689167 << "why didn't the Chinese think of this themselves" is a recurring question in Sinology.
16:54 snsabot (trilema) 2017-07-22 asciilifeform: i find it interesting that -- afaik -- nobody in actual asia thought of EITHER approach.
16:55 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: i suspect that the answer is invariably '9000 chinese thought of it, but each time 'perp' was horsewhipped, told in no uncertain terms that it won't do, not properly confucian/maoist/etc., and if still didn't get message, beheaded'
16:56 gregorynyssa asciilifeform: something resembling your idea was finally implemented by a Chinese person -- not within China, but at Carnegie Mellon
16:56 gregorynyssa https://chinese-radical-vis.glitch.me/
16:56 gregorynyssa https://chinese-radical-vis.glitch.me//disassembly/index.html
16:56 asciilifeform unsurprised
16:57 gregorynyssa modern China does not have the intellectual self-sufficiency of Russia.
16:57 gregorynyssa science and engineering remain heavily reliant on Chinese citizen who possess American degrees.
16:58 asciilifeform not quite same thing tho, rather narrowly concerned with old 'runic' subcomponents of the hieroglyphs (which , after various reforms/simplifications over centuries, not always readily connectible with the current glyph where nominally used)
16:58 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: the sad thing is that current-day usa is roughly same item as 'stagnation-era' cn
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16:58 gregorynyssa the "Chinese with American degrees" form their own subculture in China, with their own exclusive networks and clubs.
16:58 asciilifeform culturally.
16:59 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035453 << 1971!! haha..
16:59 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-03 16:58:21 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: the sad thing is that current-day usa is roughly same item as 'stagnation-era' cn
16:59 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: dunno where you got the idea that modern-day ru exemplifies some kinda 'intellectual self-sufficiency'
17:00 asciilifeform (quick litmus test for 'independent intellectual culture' -- 'does it have its own os?' -- linux distros not to be counted.)
17:00 gregorynyssa https://www.claritypress.com/product/losing-military-supremacy/
17:00 gregorynyssa for one thing, Losing Military Supremacy (2018) by Andrei Martyanov. I read this book last month.
17:01 gregorynyssa he claims that homegrown Russian engineering community survived Yeltsin-era disturbances, remains very strong.
17:01 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: there's a number of pieces like this. written even prior to 'nam'. the folx who 'need these most', won't read (and if read, will draw 0 conclusion)
17:02 asciilifeform these are rather similar to the b00ks 'on atheism' that were fashionable 20y ago
17:02 asciilifeform a 'usg atheist' does not need the book; a 'usg theist' cannot be helped with a book, probably not even certain that he can be helped with sharp stick up his arse
17:03 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: there's ~0 post-soviet engineering work worth noting in ru afaik.
↖
17:03 asciilifeform what there is, is 'over 9000' mountebanks peddling mildly-repainted su-era works; and of course 3d animations of wunderwaffen.
17:03 gregorynyssa funny that you mention. Martyanov tries very hard to appeal to the "USG theists" with reason.
17:05 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: somehow asciilifeform very often finds self , in meatspace, in the company of 'cold warriors' who (being originally created, in ideological sense, by su emigres) do the 'cat sniffs cat's arse' thing, 'hey, aint putler the devil? how about them 1000 megatonne robotic submarines' and fall down laffing
17:05 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035466 << he gives the S-400 and S-500 as examples
17:05 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-03 17:03:09 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: there's ~0 post-soviet engineering work worth noting in ru afaik.
17:05 asciilifeform these aint in any sense post-su
↖
17:05 asciilifeform even if nominally 'new'
17:05 asciilifeform hell, they're still running on su-era pdp clones
↖
17:06 asciilifeform s-xxx is precisely the kind of thing i'm referring to.
17:06 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035474 << never knew. now that is fascinating.
17:06 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-03 17:05:42 asciilifeform: hell, they're still running on su-era pdp clones
17:07 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035472 << then SU must have been incredible in the 1980s.
17:07 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-03 17:05:20 asciilifeform: these aint in any sense post-su
17:07 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: btw originality in computing in fact died before su folded.
17:07 snsabot (trilema) 2019-09-17 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: re 'face derealization' / 'they gave up, why' -- i was reading not long ago about keldysh (head of sovok academy of sciences, and overall respectable figure, in charge of ~100% of calculative works for space / atomic programs etc. ) BUT at same time is the fella who undertook 'let's ditch native comp archs and copy pdp'. seems like was a checkmate, rather than 'dolchstoss', saw no working alternative , 'we can't affor
17:07 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: '70s.
17:08 asciilifeform had superscalarism, pipelining, etc. prior to cray.
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17:08 asciilifeform then bean counters, as they always do, stepped in, turned errything they touched to shit.
17:09 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/trilema/2019-09-17#1937080 << brutal...
17:09 snsabot (trilema) 2019-09-17 asciilifeform: sure as fuck worx, 1934-1953 worked a+++. but then the 'soft' folx came, and forgot how.
17:10 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035483 << this gives me flashbacks of my college-days reading Hennessy and Patterson. it has been ten years...
17:10 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-03 17:08:07 asciilifeform: had superscalarism, pipelining, etc. prior to cray.
17:11 * asciilifeform also learned on h&p
17:11 asciilifeform in a u.s. uni. was many yrs later somewhat astonished to learn that old orcistan had much of the 'good parts' 10+y earlier
17:12 asciilifeform but of course 'does not count'(tm) 'because reasons'(c).
17:15 gregorynyssa I would be interested in reading those materials one day if/when I have learned Russian.
17:17 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: rather fragmented subject, and (on account of said fragmentation / incomplete presence on www) difficult even for folx who know the lang
17:17 * asciilifeform if had 'infinite' time, would undertake to document subj.
17:19 verisimilitude I notice an inconsistency.
17:19 asciilifeform verisimilitude: elaborate?
17:20 * asciilifeform brb
17:21 verisimilitude To be brief: We understand the issues with the von Neumann model, with pipelining and the like as band-aids, but the Soviet Union was ahead when it was doing these?
17:22 verisimilitude So the Soviet Union was ahead of all others in being bad?
~ 34 minutes ~
17:56 asciilifeform verisimilitude: afaik no one there had gotten as far as to consider rejecting vn model.
17:56 asciilifeform verisimilitude: think, this requires one to emerge from the 20th c. transistor poverty which had produced the model to begin with.
17:57 asciilifeform so from that pov, in fact 'ahead in being bad'.
17:57 verisimilitude Alright.
17:58 asciilifeform there wasn't entirely 0 work in non-vn computation ; in particular, analogue computing lived on long after ~entirely forgotten in the west.
17:58 asciilifeform as late as '70s, asciilifeform's grandfather was building (for own applied phys. worx) hydraulic calculators.
17:59 asciilifeform this 'was not from a good life' however.
17:59 asciilifeform when he got access to digital comp (clone of ibm 360) threw out the hydraulics.
18:09 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2021-05-03#1035296 << very much useful.
18:09 snsabot Logged on 2021-05-03 15:09:33 whaack: looks like my node caught up based on your last !poll... is my node actually doing a service if it struggles to keep up to what seems to be the longest chain?
18:10 asciilifeform there aint so many proper nodes (esp. if one only counts such where owner actually fucking watches the thing and does what it takes to force it to keep up more or less)
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