Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2020-07-25 | 2020-07-27 → ↓
02:02 verisimilitude I'd appreciate help with an Ada generics issue I'm having. I get this error, where X is of course a placeholder; the declarations and generic subprogram declarations match appropriately, so I've been unable to discern what's wrong:
02:02 verisimilitude instantiation cannot provide body for "X"
↖
02:02 verisimilitude "X" conflicts with declaration at ...
~ 2 hours 37 minutes ~
04:39 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-25#1017174 << I felt faint after reading that article. had not heard of Fletcherism before..
04:39 snsabot Logged on 2020-07-25 12:05:00 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: very good point re oopism. and arguably descended, at least in part, from much older american traditions of 'salvation through method'
04:42 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-25#1017176 << I have boycotted GitHub for years now. not surprising though, if all the problems are still there. I try to stay away from Git as well. using Fossil currently, but may switch to V for normal work.
04:42 snsabot Logged on 2020-07-25 12:07:37 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: ... or, read just about any ball of py liquishit on shithub. all the thoroughly redundant oop you could ever want, in there .
04:45 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-25#1017215 << the difficulty of setting up static linking (and cross-compilation) is a deliberate conspiracy by GNU. related to this earlier remark.
↖ ↖
04:45 snsabot Logged on 2020-07-25 13:24:10 asciilifeform: atm it's the only published gnat that bakes 100% static bins.
04:55 gregorynyssa what is stopping us from writing our own implementation of Ada, if I might ask?
↖
~ 7 hours 21 minutes ~
12:16 asciilifeform !q uptime
12:16 snsabot asciilifeform: time since my last reconnect : 0d 1h 56m
12:19 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-26#1017233 << quite impossible to say wtf happened there w/out seeing the proggy (or at least unit)
12:19 snsabot Logged on 2020-07-26 02:02:00 verisimilitude: instantiation cannot provide body for "X"
12:23 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-26#1017239 << there's ~6 years of history here ( and that's simply from asciilifeform's pov, other folx struggled longer. ) in '15, found that glibc project has been operated by wreckers, for years. and deliberately sneaks dyn. loads into 'static' builds. after some work, found cure -- to throw glibc the fuck out.
↖
12:23 snsabot Logged on 2020-07-26 04:45:02 gregorynyssa: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-25#1017215 << the difficulty of setting up static linking (and cross-compilation) is a deliberate conspiracy by GNU. related to this earlier remark.
12:24 asciilifeform i.e. to replace it with compact and ~100% compat. libc 'musl'. (1st requires building gcc, bintools, etc. ~under~ musl, because gcc that has been contaminated with glibc can ~only~ build w/ glibc.. )
12:25 asciilifeform i did this for trb in '15 ; ave1 for gnat in '18; and trinque is taking the subj to logical conclusion and baking a usable 100% glibc-free linuxism
12:28 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-26#1017241 << gnat aint anyffin like e.g. python, it actually conforms (well, tries, if you use for half decade ~will~ find places where doesn't) to the paper standard. i.e. coupla 100 man-years of work in there.
12:28 snsabot Logged on 2020-07-26 04:55:30 gregorynyssa: what is stopping us from writing our own implementation of Ada, if I might ask?
12:29 asciilifeform that being said, i'd rather like, e.g., a gnat w/ non-gcc back-end (i.e. doesn't have to build with C on system)
12:29 asciilifeform or for that matter, to be able to build gnat w/out already having a built gnat
12:30 asciilifeform i suspect it aint happening in this lifetime tho. much too 'heavy' a language for 'write standard-compliant compiler on napkin at lunch break'
12:31 asciilifeform fwiw asciilifeform played w/ gnat for >year (and incl. disasming the output to see how actually compiles) before recommending it to others. it was hands-down best looking horse in the opensores glue factory (and imho still is.)
12:33 asciilifeform ftr full chronicle (from a fella w/ sadly defunkt www) of the effort.
12:34 asciilifeform ( of why recced, that is )
12:34 asciilifeform !q seen-anywhere Mocky
12:34 snsabot Mocky last seen in #trilema on 2020-01-11 19:42:18: getting it back up this weekend
12:34 asciilifeform RIP.
12:37 verisimilitude http://verisimilitudes.net/sha.ads
12:37 asciilifeform verisimilitude: 404
12:37 verisimilitude http://verisimilitudes.net/sha.adb
12:37 verisimilitude Right.
12:37 verisimilitude http://verisimilitudes.net/sha256.ads
12:37 verisimilitude http://verisimilitudes.net/sha256.adb
12:38 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i gotta ask, why does this need genericism ?
12:39 verisimilitude Well, it's a learning exercise, and it has some algorithms which work across types, but identically.
12:39 verisimilitude The padding algorithm has minor variations across bits, octets, and words, which a generic can nicely solve.
12:40 verisimilitude This instantiation issue is the final issue before I can check it more, test, and release.
12:41 asciilifeform normally this kinda thing is handled via System.Storage_Unit and System.Word_Size
12:41 asciilifeform in ffa i did not, specifically because wanted to be able to test 32b variant on 64b irons etc
12:42 asciilifeform but otherwise it does give you what you want w/out genericism (which is hellishly difficult to get right, because unlike e.g. cpp templates, it in fact forces the compiler to prove that yer generic is correct for ALL possible instantiations)
12:43 verisimilitude I similarly have my own reasons for choosing this. In particular, I want to write an entire generic package, but have settled for just SHA256 for now, similarly to my other SHA work across other languages.
12:43 asciilifeform in e.g. 'cryostat', i did it via System.
12:43 verisimilitude So the goal is to finish this, and then genericize the entire thing for the final program.
12:44 asciilifeform btw the above is example of a generic package.
12:45 asciilifeform verisimilitude: genericism doesn't work the way you used it, gotta in fact specify the full thing before it can be instantiated.
12:46 asciilifeform easiest way to keep it straight is to make any genericised item a separate package, as in 'cryostat'.
12:47 verisimilitude The subprogram declarations are already made by that time. So I can't use a generic to provide the body of a declaration in this fashion?
12:49 asciilifeform verisimilitude: 'already made' is a quite strict concept in ada planet. req'd reading.
12:50 verisimilitude Read I'll.
12:51 asciilifeform possibly also helpful page.
12:51 asciilifeform older page on subj, also detailed.
12:53 asciilifeform verisimilitude: will add, even if you get it 100% right, makes proggy ~considerably~ harder to read. imho best avoided unless entirely physically impossible to do the job w/out it (as i found to be the case in 'cryostat', there is absolutely no way to do this w/out making the payload a generic type )
12:54 * asciilifeform at one pt had genericism in ffa, prior to 1st published draft ch's; rewrote to abolish it.
12:55 trinque incidentally, I just tried building ave1's (which really ought to be called GregorR's, as the other guy merely bolted some shit to side, and absconded) and this: http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=UXOI
12:56 trinque I assume this means that the gnat on my host (devuan 'jessie') is too old?
12:56 trinque which is annoying; I selected this vintage de-systemd-ified debian because it had gcc-4.9
12:57 asciilifeform trinque: i've seen this specific eggog when attempting build of adacorpse-style gnat using gnu's
12:57 asciilifeform gnu's is missing a number of pragma knobs, for some unknown reason
12:58 trinque really trying to avoid the stack-chairs-just-so-to-reproduce-results here
12:58 asciilifeform ( and some, not missing as such, but broken evaluation conditions , same effect )
12:58 trinque rather than "install this bog-standard linux from yesteryear, and run x"
12:58 trinque there isn't some gnat flag to tell it to ignore unknown pragmas?
12:59 asciilifeform trinque: iirc there was, but doesn't 100% cure, because of above
12:59 asciilifeform (i.e. thinks 'known' but the eval conditions are defective )
12:59 trinque piss.
12:59 * asciilifeform wrote off gnu's gnat as unsalvageable
13:00 trinque so what's everyone using as magically selected starter bins for gcc/gnat?
13:00 asciilifeform the sadder part is, there was only ever originally 1 gnat. i.e. the gnu folx in all cases started w/ adacorpse's, then fucked it
13:00 asciilifeform trinque: i used adacorpse's '2016' as the starter yeast.
13:00 trinque this must be what I've been running into this whole time.
13:00 asciilifeform entirely possib
13:01 trinque oddly, devuan-host's gnat builds chroot's gnat just fine (using gnu sources).
13:01 trinque chroot gnat then fails to build itself.
13:02 asciilifeform nao ~that~ is interesting.
13:02 trinque that was the error I pasted the other day
13:02 asciilifeform aha, and i still strongly suspect that the build ends up somehow w/ the gnu includes in it
13:02 trinque yup, I think that's likely too
13:03 trinque alright, I suppose I'll modify the recipe to start with adacore's 2016 bins, but boy is that irritating
13:04 * asciilifeform irritated by this ever since ave1 published his item and asciilifeform found that it only builds on essentially-identical adacorpse bin gnat (and itself)
13:04 trinque is there some public source for those still, or is it also going to be something someone has in a shoebox?
13:05 asciilifeform trinque: http://dulap.xyz/ada/
13:05 trinque asciilifeform: is there a reason the gnu one is unacceptable?
13:05 asciilifeform trinque: cuz it, by all indications, is broken in 9000 places
13:05 trinque asciilifeform: no sigs on any of these
13:05 trinque the idea was that I'd start from old debian ISOs anyone can get
13:05 trinque (devuan is but debian without systemd)
13:07 asciilifeform trinque: the only sigs for adacorpse's are theirs (on their www...) and asciilifeform's , for the source per se and the key deps , but certifies strictly that it was what asciilifeform dug up when went to build it back in the day naturally
13:08 trinque not that I don't believe you, but the intent is to publish a bridge, as I did with cuntoo
13:08 asciilifeform trinque: afaik no one succeeded in building adacorpse's on a commonplace gnu-style gnat, to date
13:08 asciilifeform at least not where i could see it.
13:08 asciilifeform all of my own attempts to do this (my initial ada box used gnu's) failed, w/ eggogs very similar to trinque's
13:09 trinque myup
13:12 asciilifeform this kinda thing is why there will be no escape from actually disasming/auditing any safety-critical item actually built w/ gnat (this is the 'secret' of why asciilifeform used maximally strict subset of the lang in ffa -- i.e. prohibited secondary stack, etc. -- to get lean binary)
13:13 asciilifeform and why i got the adaistic standard i/o invocations the hell outta it
13:14 asciilifeform ( see also re subj )
13:14 asciilifeform it's designed to run with skeletal rts (incidentally ave1's example aint bad, i used it for mips port )
13:15 verisimilitude I'm still ignorant of how to correct my issue, unfortunately for me.
13:16 asciilifeform verisimilitude: you'll need to actually read the linked docs re how-to-generic
13:16 verisimilitude I did.
13:16 trinque asciilifeform: http://nosuchlabs.com/pub/gnatdeps/ << the two sets of mpfr, mpc, gmp, etc are also banished in my work
13:16 asciilifeform trinque: neat
13:17 trinque going to have to retrace some steps and see if I can start from their compiler.
13:17 verisimilitude Drinking from the well hasn't yet washed away my ignorance.
13:20 asciilifeform verisimilitude: i'd luvv to say immediately exactly where you made mistake, but the item you posted -- where coupla dozen genericisms inside 1 package -- would take week to unravel
13:21 asciilifeform split'em into packages, then will be apparent immediately where mistake when you try and build
13:22 verisimilitude I get the impression renamings may be necessary.
13:23 verisimilitude I appreciate the help in any case, asciilifeform.
13:24 asciilifeform verisimilitude: think of ada generics as similar to cl macros, but with 9000x moar fascism, i.e. it is ~very~ easy to write a visually-correct proggy w/em that nevertheless chokes the compiler (because it doesn't know how to prove that it is guaranteed correct under the given elaboration order)
13:25 verisimilitude Macros are easier to write half-baked for very specific uses, yes.
13:25 asciilifeform i say this because verisimilitude is cl aficionado and knows that to read proggy w/ anyffin more than trivial macros is quite difficult
13:26 verisimilitude By far the worst aspect of other Common Lisp code is FFI garbage, at which point I usually stop reading.
13:27 asciilifeform verisimilitude: the sad part there is that ffiism is part of all but the most trivial cl proggy (either directly or via libraryism) on acct of the fossilized standard and its failure to include almost any i/o apart from console
13:27 verisimilitude I'm making a distinction between using something implementation-specific and the FFI.
13:28 asciilifeform ah. i see the 2 as entirely similar
13:28 asciilifeform (i.e. when you use sb-posix:.... is quite same thing as using whatever lib , simply diff. set of halfwits wrote it)
13:28 verisimilitude It's better to go without, but it's entirely impossible to do even some trivial things without any, so it's necessary.
13:29 asciilifeform aha
13:29 verisimilitude A way to avoid this is to segment code. So, network code works on streams, but doesn't actually care where they're connected to.
13:30 asciilifeform streams are only a halfway decent abstraction for tcpism tho
13:30 asciilifeform (vs. e.g. udp)
13:30 verisimilitude For that, just only process discrete messages.
13:30 verisimilitude Common Lisp can be very frustrating with its lacking, which makes it all the worse it's still amongst the better options.
13:31 asciilifeform oblig. example for ada, where asciilifeform wrote from 0 a networkism lib specifically to get streams the hell outta where they don't belong, i.e. in processing packet by packet
13:31 verisimilitude It's truly sickening, how complicated doing such basic things is.
13:31 trinque heh.
13:32 * trinque falls inside a bottle
13:33 verisimilitude I've not yet bothered to finish my own UDP abstraction, independent of any system, because I've yet to cut through the CPP jungle and figure out precisely what the Hell several of the structures actually are, but they also vary across operating systems.
13:33 asciilifeform verisimilitude: if yours is to sit on a posixistic os, rather than driving nic iron directly, can use mine as crib sheet -- it includes errything necessary
13:34 asciilifeform there's 0 cpp involved in any of this
13:34 verisimilitude Looking upon most anything in UNIX shows the amateurish design some of my earlier systems went through, but I recognized this and corrected them, whereas UNIX has meat stuck to hooks hanging from the ceiling and ``Oh, ignore the smell.''.
13:34 asciilifeform 100% of the c glue in subj, for ref.
13:34 asciilifeform verisimilitude: indeed it does
13:35 verisimilitude I'm trying to avoid using any actual C, which makes it more difficult, asciilifeform.
13:35 verisimilitude I may need to give in and write C bindings, as with that, though.
13:35 asciilifeform verisimilitude: 0 chance of portability on unixlikes w/out the c bindings, cuz the built-in structs actually vary in size & layout b/w not only irons (endianism etc) but even particular os
13:36 trinque asciilifeform: did anyone back up the adacore-2016 *bins* anywhere?
13:36 verisimilitude I thought I'd use the neat interfacing system of Ada, but even with a ``standard'' type it's needlessly frustrating.
↖
13:36 trinque am I thick, did you already link these?
13:36 trinque their own website does not give an obvious path to anything but 2020
13:36 trinque hay mas futuro
13:37 asciilifeform trinque: they're in the dulap link. (where no sigs). if you specifically want a sig 'this is how it was on asciilifeform's boxen in '17' i can make
13:37 asciilifeform (in re the 2016 bin ball)
13:38 verisimilitude I checked, and there shouldn't be any intra-body elaboration order issues with my generics; I'll bug #ada again.
13:38 trinque asciilifeform: I see gnat-gpl in there, but not adacore. filename?
13:39 trinque http://dulap.xyz/ada/gnat-gpl-2016-x86_64-linux-bin.tar.gz << or is this the correct item?
13:39 asciilifeform that's the gnu one iirc
13:40 trinque yep, thought we needed to start from adacore's
13:40 * trinque boots a dusty machine to see if it's in there
13:44 trinque looks like I have a 2019, not 2016.
13:51 asciilifeform trinque: for extra confusion, adacorpse's was in fact called 'gnat-gpl' . so iirc this was it.
13:52 asciilifeform ( the 'gnu gnat' is the 1 distributed w/ standard gcc )
13:52 * asciilifeform had to dig through paper notes to unearth this..
13:52 trinque oic
13:53 trinque much appreciated!
13:53 * trinque goes to try it.
13:54 trinque http://dulap.xyz/ada/gnat-gpl-2016-x86_64-linux-bin.tar.gz << it.
13:55 asciilifeform oughta be aha
13:57 asciilifeform for triple confusion, they ~all~, afaik, print 'copyright fsf ...' when --version .
13:58 asciilifeform ( gnat --version, that is. while e.g. 'gprbuild --version' afaik ~always~ '(c) adacorpse'... )
13:59 asciilifeform ( ftr : 1 easy litmus re which 1 you have, is whether current ffa builds )
13:59 asciilifeform ^ there, the gcc-bundled gnat barfs on some of the restrict pragmas
14:04 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-26#1017370 << before this slips away: this is doable when there is no struct garbage involved in the particular os calls strictly
14:04 snsabot Logged on 2020-07-26 13:36:05 verisimilitude: I thought I'd use the neat interfacing system of Ada, but even with a ``standard'' type it's needlessly frustrating.
14:06 asciilifeform ( whereas if there ~are~, yer stuck w/ sumthing like this , and .c glue is inevitable if you want the thing to be portable across even 2 vers. of linux, much less elsewhere )
14:07 asciilifeform even in the cryostat example, note that i included note ('won't work on mips') because in fact flags aint standard on the unixlikes, believe or not.
14:07 snsabot (trilema) 2018-10-24 asciilifeform: bvt: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-10-23#1865503 << this is very interesting ! i had nfi that open() had been sabotaged on mips-linux ( observe , in your table, errybody has same flags but for mips )
14:08 asciilifeform there's a quite terrifying amount of this nonsense that turns up when you dig, it is like turning over old firewood
14:08 asciilifeform 9000 species of vermin come out
~ 31 minutes ~
14:40 verisimilitude I'll republish my 2017-06-06 article today or tomorrow, and it's interesting to reflect on the baroque system I created haphazardly. I could see flaws, like wanting it to be impossible to determine the current operating mode, but making note of the side-channels which could be used to determine this, along with other oddities. I did away with this baroque system, but it was a learning experience.
14:41 asciilifeform verisimilitude: imho publishing yer experimental notes is a++ Good Thing. (and nao if you also had comments box on yer www...)
14:41 verisimilitude I look at UNIX systems or the WWW, however, and see this same flavor of nonsense, lack of planning, lack of foresight and proper design, but these systems never did away with it. They kept it, and wrote religious texts praising it, and it's persisted for decades. People can't imagine a room without rotting meat hanging from the ceiling.
14:42 asciilifeform verisimilitude: there was never ~any planning, of whatever kind, in design of unix, it is exact equivalent of the sheet metal towns beggars inhabit in brazil & elsewhere
14:42 verisimilitude Yes, precisely my point. The fork alone is awful.
14:43 verisimilitude I'd a system named ``vapidity'' which collected whatever was sent to a port, and had the HTML form point to that port, since I don't know how to configure my HTTP server; all it collected was spam, however, so I disabled it. If anyone wants to comment, feel free to PM them here and I'll add soon.
14:44 asciilifeform ( interestingly, there is such a town right inside buenos aires, and to this day marked empty on all maps. and i went there and didn't even see it, it is 100% isolated from the 'mainland' except for a coupla 'holes' )
14:45 asciilifeform verisimilitude: if yer concerned w/ spam, the glue trap i use on my www (3rd yr nao) worx a++++
14:45 verisimilitude I must leave for now, but it's always pleasant to chat here. I'll respond to further messages later, so don't hold any because of this.
14:45 asciilifeform aite, laters
14:45 * asciilifeform will also bbl.
~ 6 hours 2 minutes ~
20:48 asciilifeform !w poll
20:48 watchglass Polling 12 nodes...
20:48 watchglass 205.134.172.4:8333 : (172-4.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.082s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640952
20:48 watchglass 205.134.172.27:8333 : Alive: (0.084s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640952 (Operator: asciilifeform)
20:48 watchglass 205.134.172.6:8333 : (172-6.core.ai.net) Alive: (0.061s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640952
20:48 watchglass 108.31.170.3:8333 : (pool-108-31-170-3.washdc.fios.verizon.net) Alive: (0.098s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640952 (Operator: asciilifeform)
20:48 watchglass 192.151.158.26:8333 : Alive: (0.145s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640952
20:48 watchglass 208.94.240.42:8333 : Alive: (0.247s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640952
20:48 watchglass 143.202.160.10:8333 : Alive: (0.282s) V=70001 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.7.0.1/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640952
20:48 watchglass 176.9.59.199:8333 : (static.199.59.9.176.clients.your-server.de) Alive: (0.326s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=235865 (Operator: jurov)
20:48 watchglass 213.109.238.156:8333 : Alive: (0.302s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640951
20:48 watchglass 188.121.168.69:8333 : (rev-188-121-168-69.radiolan.sk) Alive: (0.379s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640952
20:48 watchglass 103.36.92.112:8333 : (terebe.ns01.net) Alive: (0.630s) V=99999 (/therealbitcoin.org:0.9.99.99/) Jumpers=0x1 (TRB-Compat.) Blocks=640952
20:48 watchglass 205.134.172.26:8333 : Busy? (No answer in 20 sec.)
~ 38 minutes ~
21:27 feedbot http://mvdstandard.net/2020/07/colorado-former-presidential-candidate-and-minister-of-exterior-relations-announces-retirement-from-politics/ << The Montevideo Standard -- Colorado Former Presidential Candidate And Minister Of Exterior Relations Announces Retirement From Politics
← 2020-07-25 | 2020-07-27 → ↑

Random(asciilifeform) | Download hourly DB snapshot | Get Source Code

Theme: Light | Dark | System Default