Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2023-08-17 | 2023-08-19 → ↓
00:42 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-08-16#1030270 << `simonstylites` is not the Chinese ML programmer whom I mentioned.
00:42 dulapbot Logged on 2023-08-16 14:36:08 asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-08-15#1029760 << fella claims to be a reader iirc, but not knows that asciilifeform in recent yrs hasn't even always time to answer mail, much less bake machine arch ? trololol
00:42 bitbot Logged on 2023-08-15 23:01:02 simonstylites[signpost|deedbot]: I can't wait to use Loper OS.
00:43 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-08-17#1030313 << It has some advantages over Linux.
00:43 dulapbot Logged on 2023-08-17 15:21:23 asciilifeform: http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-08-17#1029799 << what keeps you on winblows?
00:43 bitbot Logged on 2023-08-17 01:57:16 gregorynyssa[deedbot|signpost]: However, I still use Windows on a daily basis.
00:46 gregorynyssa Aside from my own Linux distribution, Slackware is the best.
00:47 gregorynyssa I mean, best according to my own needs.
00:48 gregorynyssa signpost: I would be glad to speak further about Pentacle since it has some commonality with my own work.
00:51 gregorynyssa I like how GoboLinux places every program in its own folder, in the manner of Windows.
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~ 10 hours 41 minutes ~
11:32 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: signpost's pentacle links statically, you can do precisely same thing there
11:32 asciilifeform ( for that matter, even heathen crapple's os, where nuffin links statically, has 'erry proggy in own dir', this aint exclusive to microshit )
11:37 asciilifeform ... meanwhile, in 'internet of the future' lulz.
11:37 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2022-03-04 asciilifeform: (4) internet of the future(tm)(r)(c), i.e. whitelist and 'license to www' a la aol
11:39 asciilifeform ^ 1 in endless series of tards like weev, who, instead of 'let's p2p hosting', insist on sitting on reichnet and whining about censors...
11:39 dulapbot (trilema) 2017-12-22 deedbot: weevlos voiced for 30 minutes.
~ 4 hours 17 minutes ~
15:57 PeterL http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-08-18#1029887 << is there something stopping you from having separate folders for each program on other distros?
15:57 bitbot Logged on 2023-08-18 00:51:07 gregorynyssa[signpost|deedbot]: I like how GoboLinux places every program in its own folder, in the manner of Windows.
~ 15 minutes ~
16:13 asciilifeform PeterL: on a heathen linux, dynamics libs thrown about in n diff /usr dirs, typically
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16:13 asciilifeform *dynamic
16:16 PeterL so what happens if you move them?
16:17 asciilifeform PeterL: PeterL: e.g. 'libc.so.6: version `GLIBC_2.14' not found' and similar idiocy
16:18 asciilifeform and the dependency hell it creates, often enuff not curable without demolishing ~errything on the box
16:18 PeterL ah, so the program assumes you have the lib it needs instead of bringing it with?
16:18 asciilifeform aha
16:18 PeterL but.. why?
16:18 asciilifeform and absolutely universal on 'modern' distros
16:19 PeterL does it make it more efficient or something?
16:19 asciilifeform PeterL: see logs. nominally 'for seekoority' but factually forced by drepper & his fellow nsa assets to help maintain vuln footprint
16:20 asciilifeform good % of asciilifeform's early trb work was specifically to build statically-linked binary of same
16:21 asciilifeform later on , signpost baked a (initially gentooesque) linux where only musltronic gcc is present
16:21 asciilifeform and the problem goes away entirely
16:21 asciilifeform ( musl being a sane replacement for glibc where drepper's vandlism isn't present and static linking worx 100% )
16:21 asciilifeform *vandalism
16:23 PeterL I suppose I see the benefit of having to only patch a hole found in one place instead of rebuilding every program, is that the correct way this is reasoned?
16:23 asciilifeform was how it was pushed, yes
16:24 asciilifeform (drepper et al of course not bothered to mention that 'upgrade' can ~introduce~ as well as patch hole..)
16:24 PeterL but then you have to worry about a "fix" breaking things that use it?
16:26 asciilifeform see e.g.
16:27 asciilifeform think of 'dynamic linking' this way -- you had a proggy and thought you knew its behaviour space, and nao a total stranger changed arbitrary aspects of how it worx.
16:27 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2020-04-03 shinohai: Latest glibc "update" broke ~75% of coins.
16:27 dulapbot (asciilifeform) 2020-07-26 asciilifeform: http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/asciilifeform/2020-07-26#1017239 << there's ~6 years of history here ( and that's simply from asciilifeform's pov, other folx struggled longer. ) in '15, found that glibc project has been operated by wreckers, for years. and deliberately sneaks dyn. l
16:28 asciilifeform ~best~ case scenario is that it simply bombs on start
16:29 asciilifeform for erry vuln the dreppers claim to fix, they introduce N new ones. once you know this, seeing dynamic linking anywhere near safety-critical proggy (or pretty much anywhere else) oughta induce gag reflex.
16:30 asciilifeform the only place it is ever of practical use is occasions when you wanna run e.g. 'valgrind', where you gotta hijack malloc and free
16:32 asciilifeform ( arguably best proggy from a determinism pov is one ~without any linking whatsoever~, dynamic or static. but there aint many of these, 'm' is the only example asciilifeform can personally give )
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16:34 PeterL dynamiscism seems to be inviting murphey's law
~ 5 hours 41 minutes ~
22:16 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-08-18#1030405 << Under static linking, all of the functions which a program needs are included within the executable.
22:16 gregorynyssa Under dynamic linking, the executable needs other files (dynamic libraries) in order to be executed.
22:17 gregorynyssa Within the community of Windows, the inconvenience of dynamic linking is reduced by distributing .exe and .dll files within the same .zip file.
22:19 dulapbot Logged on 2023-08-18 16:16:35 PeterL[asciilifeform]: ah, so the program assumes you have the lib it needs instead of bringing it with?
22:21 gregorynyssa By always keeping the .exe and .dll files in the same folder, there are no path-related errors.
22:22 gregorynyssa The community of Linux rejects this practice, and insists that the dynamic-library files must be scattered across the filesystem.
22:22 gregorynyssa Thus, when using Linux, you must constantly tinker with filepaths to get executables working.
22:25 gregorynyssa http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-08-18#1029896 << In my opinion, paths should not be hardcoded into executables at all.
22:25 bitbot Logged on 2023-08-18 16:13:12 asciilifeform[4]: PeterL: on a heathen linux, dynamics libs thrown about in n diff /usr dirs, typically
22:25 gregorynyssa It is nearly possible to create a distribution of Linux with zero hardcoded paths within executables.
22:26 gregorynyssa Some traditionally hardcoded paths such as /bin/sh and /etc/fstab are hard to remove, though.
22:29 gregorynyssa http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-08-18#1029923 << From a Determinist perspective, even malloc(3) should not be used.
22:29 bitbot Logged on 2023-08-18 16:32:41 asciilifeform[4]: ( arguably best proggy from a determinism pov is one ~without any linking whatsoever~, dynamic or static. but there aint many of these, 'm' is the only example asciilifeform can personally give )
22:29 gregorynyssa Every program should allocate all of its memory in a single block upon starting up.
22:30 gregorynyssa (This being achieved through ELF segments, not through brk(2).)
~ 33 minutes ~
23:04 asciilifeform gregorynyssa: read the linked proggy, that's precisely what takes place there, lol
23:04 asciilifeform (and not limited to elf segment either)
23:06 asciilifeform nope re any other libcism either
23:06 asciilifeform (builds w/out linking, there's nuffin to link)
23:08 asciilifeform technically invoked ld, but simply to get the elf header in
23:13 asciilifeform ( subj )
~ 44 minutes ~
23:57 gregorynyssa http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-08-18#1030444 << Nicely done.
23:57 dulapbot Logged on 2023-08-18 23:02:08 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: read the linked proggy, that's precisely what takes place there, lol
23:58 gregorynyssa I have not used your M program because I have no MIPS III programs which I need to run.
23:58 gregorynyssa I seem to remember that you wrote M in one or two days, is that right?
23:59 gregorynyssa Was there any particular MIPS III program which you needed to execute?
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