Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-03-26 | 2019-03-28 → ↓
05:30 mircea_popescu and for the rotaku club : https://ro.wikisource.org/wiki/A_zecea_muz%C4%83 (one of caragiale's best satires, utterly destructuring "modern" world.)
~ 5 hours 56 minutes ~
11:26 BingoBoingo Local cop shop burglarized: https://archive.is/Tbxb5
11:39 billymg Mocky: i plan to have my recent remove-tinymce patch updated to go on top of hanbot's this weekend, if you'd like to use for http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-27#1904998
11:39 a111 Logged on 2019-03-27 00:55 Mocky: I'm going to finish moving my blog over to mpwp this week. I expect I'll need some pizarro assistance for go-live. Then Imma post remaining handful of Qatar posts, including video of my address to Doha derpchain gathering.
11:40 billymg a freshly pressed copy of the divergent patch found here http://btcbase.org/patches?patchset=mp-wp&search= has been running on my blog since sunday though
11:41 billymg and i did pretty thorough local QAing before publishing, but having more testers would be great
~ 1 hours 32 minutes ~
13:14 mircea_popescu billymg, if you're happy with it, one thing you could do is patch your testing suite as an alternate patch off mp-wp genesis ; this way people looking to test can just use it (and patch atop it if need be) rather than write from scratch.
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13:14 lobbesbot mircea_popescu: Sent 2 hours and 53 minutes ago: <spyked> http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/mtpZa/?raw=true
13:15 mircea_popescu same goes for whoever else has a good testing suite for whatever they're maintaining : publishing a "devel" branch, including testing and whatever else tooling in that vein is certainly a legitimate use of forking the v tree.
13:16 mircea_popescu this way, someone looking to test presses to both heads and voila. it has the potential to significantly improve the quality of testing done, both in the sense of total and highwater mark.
13:17 mircea_popescu mtpza, srsly ?
13:17 mircea_popescu i guess it wasn't mtpzd, at least....
13:23 BingoBoingo <mircea_popescu> (i kinda suspect BingoBoingo would do a lot better with a partner on the grounds, tbh) << I suspect similar
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13:38 mircea_popescu well in the meanwhile stop burning so much incense on the melancholy temple. idle hands an' all that!!
13:43 BingoBoingo Well, walks are getting easier now that the wind and chill is clearing the locals off the riverwalk
13:44 mircea_popescu it's started here, the wind. it'd be tornado level anywhere else, it freely moves the damned car on the highway, "what the fuck, is my direction shot what the fuck is this ?!" "just windy" "holy shit!"
13:45 BingoBoingo The extremes were more extreme back on the plains of old country, but here the baseline level of air movement is quite a bit higher.
13:49 mircea_popescu !!up grangerstranger
13:49 deedbot grangerstranger voiced for 30 minutes.
13:49 mircea_popescu grangerstranger, who the hell are you then ?
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13:50 diana_coman mircea_popescu: fwiw everything I published v-versioned has the tests included as a subdir with its own .gpr file and all that; I'm not sure a fork of the V-tree is really needed for this (i.e. deleting a whole dir is easier than maintaining a for as far as I see it atm).
13:50 diana_coman a fork not a for, lol
13:51 mircea_popescu diana_coman, word. it's more a thing for something like mp-wp, which is a sort of enduser app so to speak, than something like eucrypt that's basically a library, or in any case a building block intended for use in forging.
13:52 diana_coman I can see it, yes.
13:53 diana_coman re grangerstranger it's really that those never talking actually are ghosts even if poked? what a surprise
13:54 mircea_popescu diana_coman, there's a pronstarlet the naming reminds me of.
13:54 mircea_popescu https://twitter.com/kimmygrangerxxx
13:56 diana_coman eh, what's to stop stealing internet names if images is too hard; but anyway.
13:56 mircea_popescu nothing, certainly.
13:56 diana_coman "Dudes are out here going to the gym to only work out their arms and chest and constantly skip everything below their torso." aahaha
13:57 diana_coman in fairness though,I'd say it's untrue: there's LOTS of dicking around so they...try!
13:57 mircea_popescu easy enough to check, on the other side. but yes, chick's a cut above the usual dickowsy.
13:58 mircea_popescu "My friends: We really need to start talking nicer to eachother 4 minutes later: “You really are a stupid ass bitch”"
14:04 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: afaik 'granger' is today an agricultural gear supplier in usa . ( named after 19th c union thing of some variety )
14:04 asciilifeform so entirely generic string .
14:05 mircea_popescu it was a fleeting momentary thought! such as occurs in my box occasionally! i'm not proposing marriage over here!!1
14:07 grangerstranger what about me?
14:08 grangerstranger unfortunately i got named by friends and it just kinda stuck
14:08 asciilifeform grangerstranger: http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-27#1905120 . very specific q. got answer ?
14:08 a111 Logged on 2019-03-27 17:49 mircea_popescu: grangerstranger, who the hell are you then ?
14:08 mircea_popescu grangerstranger, what do you do for a living and why are you here would be decent starting points.
14:08 grangerstranger im a magical being
14:08 grangerstranger network security
14:08 mircea_popescu a ok.
14:08 mircea_popescu !!down grangerstranger
14:09 asciilifeform gotta wonder re the thought process. door clearly marked 'If you don't know where you are, you shouldn't be here.' eh .
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14:09 mircea_popescu no markings are clear in modern democracy. it's written in the constitution : everyone is to be idemnified for all things they do not read.
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14:23 BingoBoingo ^ Pretty much the divide between Republic and the outside
~ 22 minutes ~
14:46 feedbot http://trilema.com/2019/lavare/ << Trilema -- L'avare
14:54 asciilifeform in other noose ! http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/6rnvA/?raw=true << prelim. smoke test of ch18 example 2048b prime gen. http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/USsFD/?raw=true << sample output with timing. all the primes pass on e.g. wolfram's , if anyone has a favourite 3rdparty litmus, plox to try also when ch18 posted.
14:55 asciilifeform on avg. takes 1 - 50 (worst so far) sec. on the 'standard' test box.
14:56 asciilifeform will post coupla moar outs momentarily.
14:59 asciilifeform http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/4yRiK/?raw=true http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/5NJ3N/?raw=true http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/0jyWs/?raw=true .
15:02 asciilifeform http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/eCTfy/?raw=true http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/gmIsx/?raw=true http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/3184T/?raw=true .
15:03 asciilifeform ^ 6 shots .
15:04 asciilifeform grr, timings didn't make it in; range from <1 to 70sec
15:10 asciilifeform mircea_popescu, diana_coman , et al ^ plox to comment .
15:16 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, what am i commenting on ?
15:17 asciilifeform if the q returned a null, not problem, lol
15:17 asciilifeform example is to illustrate style, i did not particularly doubt that it'd work as described .
15:18 mircea_popescu i dun see the problem, so it takers a minute. current gpg takes as much, and ssh which doesn't is sucja cryptojoke as to not be worth the mention.
15:18 feedbot http://trilema.com/2019/my-very-own-never-before-published-slut-famous-crab-dip-recipe/ << Trilema -- My very own, never before published, slut-famous, crab dip recipe
15:18 asciilifeform the carryaway is that ( with operating fg ) it'll take <2min to bake a 4096bit key .
15:18 asciilifeform on current ffa ( i.e. no asmisms )
15:19 mircea_popescu nb.
15:20 asciilifeform it's ~= the figure i predicted on napkin, but nao has experimental confirm.
15:21 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: funnily enuff, koch takes approx same time, and that's with him not using rng witnesses at all iirc...
15:21 mircea_popescu aha.
15:21 asciilifeform prolly on acct of http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2906 -ism
15:22 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: ssh iirc uses ellipticisms by default, so whole own category of joak
15:25 asciilifeform grr, earlier typo, not ~1s fastest of course, but 16 , lol
15:25 asciilifeform ~16 - ~70 range.
15:27 asciilifeform granted for actual key will want also random e , and will reject some p,q,e triples based on the obvious rule
15:27 asciilifeform ( so i expect will be ~7 min. or so per 4096b key, on iron of this horse )
15:32 asciilifeform for thread-completeness, will add that it is possible to speed up the algo by giving not only 1 'primorial up to width' but it and then whichever number of product(n+1th-prime ... n+i-th prime) that yet again fit in the width, and so forth, for any desired # of small primes, for the initial sieve
15:32 asciilifeform to reduce the # of sad candidates that m-r ends up eating
15:33 asciilifeform ( naturally at no point will the algo complete faster than the time eaten by the given # of m-r rounds specified )
15:35 asciilifeform tbh i cannot however think of when or where i would say 'ugh, 10min is too long for baking a 4096b key'..
15:35 asciilifeform ( when 1st started ffa, was quite ready to live with 'keygen takes hour+' ftr )
15:38 asciilifeform diana_coman back in the day posted old-style mpi timings but i do not know on what irons so cannot readily compare .
15:38 asciilifeform 'A relatively short test run obtained 40 random primes of 2048 bits each in 13274 seconds in total (3.7 hours) meaning on average 331.85 seconds per prime (~6 minutes).'
15:40 asciilifeform ( also had 'an average of 9.78 seconds per M-R run' , on again i dun presently know which irons )
15:40 asciilifeform tho unless i misread, that ^ figure included 16 iterations thereof, rather than 1
15:41 asciilifeform ( in asciilifeform's demo, proggy halts when candidate passes 32 rnds )
15:42 asciilifeform aanyways i expect that when diana_coman gets to eating ch18, we can compare properly .
15:47 diana_coman asciilifeform: timings sounds good to me; I have it on the list to get some timings for comparison when I get to eat full FFA, yes; atm though I can tell for sure that 10 minutes for generating key is both fine and rather fast even.
15:48 asciilifeform diana_coman: no rush, we'll find out how compares on given $iron when you get around to 18 .
15:49 diana_coman on that d1 intel from http://ossasepia.com/2019/02/28/zcx-vs-sjlj-data-set/#selection-113.0-113.85 the tests of eucrypt that generate a key pair take at times ~20 min, just to give an idea
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15:49 asciilifeform that's substantially faster box than mine ftr
15:50 asciilifeform ( mine, used as ref for all ffa figs, is opteron 2393SE @ 3.1G )
15:50 asciilifeform i also built at various points on a heathen i7 (2.8G) and there runs ~2x faster across the board, ftr
15:51 asciilifeform ( the latter not used for any of the published tests, but to simply gauge the effect of 'modern' x86isms . fwiw does have constant-time mul etc )
15:54 * asciilifeform deliberately uses oldest opteron in the torture room as 'standard ffa gauge' , if wasn't obv.
15:55 asciilifeform ftr rk is effectively 2x, as measured, slower than this gauge box , on ffa.
15:56 asciilifeform i expect that as moar folx eat ffa, we will have moar empirical figs to compare.
15:58 asciilifeform fwiw 'speed of ffa' for applications involving modexp ( rsa keygen & enc/dec ) hinges ~entirely on speed of the multiplier unit in $iron .
15:58 asciilifeform ( troo from ch14b and up )
15:59 * asciilifeform bbl,tea
16:07 feedbot http://trilema.com/2019/lavaro/ << Trilema -- L'avaro
~ 1 hours 15 minutes ~
17:23 Mocky billymg: if your tinymce patch is ready this weekend I'll test it with my setup.
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17:27 Mocky I may end up having a follow up vpatch for mpwp as well
17:35 feedbot http://qntra.net/2019/03/british-soldier-faces-charges-over-friendly-fire-in-video-game-exercise/ << Qntra -- British Soldier Faces Charges Over Friendly Fire In Video Game Exercise
17:36 BingoBoingo ^ From Spreadsheets in Space to Field Exercises in Spreadsheets!
17:48 mircea_popescu whole tower of shit's derealizing at a shocking rate.
17:55 BingoBoingo Seriousky, all that's left is shit and graft fulfilled with more shit
~ 1 hours 3 minutes ~
18:58 asciilifeform in other noose, 100 shots of that 2048bit-prime baker : http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/DjaVe/?raw=true ; min=13, max=299, avg=61, median=47 (seconds) .
18:59 asciilifeform ( same params, i.e. pronounced prime if passes m-r with 32 rng-shat witnesses )
18:59 BingoBoingo In still other news, US sheep herd hits an all time low.
19:03 asciilifeform ( for n00bz -- prime gen parallelizes, obv., over as many cpu as you have. but ffa per se does not use threads, tho it can be run inside threads with no added headache )
19:11 asciilifeform 4**(-32) ~= 5.4210e-20 , probability of fatal misfire for 32 rounds of m-r
19:15 asciilifeform i.e. if you run somehow 1 per sec, will eat a coupla dozen moon-size asteroids prior to getting misfire..
19:17 mircea_popescu provided, of course, the witnesses aren't correlated.
19:17 asciilifeform obv
19:18 asciilifeform or rad event in yer irons, also fairly high prob regardless of how you baked rng
19:18 asciilifeform ( high in comparison with the naked 4**-x that is )
19:19 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: interestingly, iirc even to bake 32 liars (having control of the witnesses, presupposes) that 1) all diff 2) work for some n -- is open problem atm
19:20 mircea_popescu afaik there was constructive approach
19:20 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: if you recall where, plz link
19:20 mircea_popescu but also afaik, it doesn't work with "and all same size"
19:21 asciilifeform nah i'd be satisfied with 'here's n, and here's 32 unequal m-r liars for n'
19:21 asciilifeform i recall digging for this, and instead finding conjecture that no canhaz
19:22 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, there's eg ~20mn carmichael numbers under 10^20
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19:23 asciilifeform carmichaels dun have much to do with m-r
19:23 asciilifeform ( it's fermat that chokes on'em )
19:23 mircea_popescu yes ; but by analogy i expect it's possible you have some m-r liars up to the large (4096 bit is a large number) numbers we're dealing wqith
19:24 asciilifeform in m-r, for prime p, 3/4 of the integers are troof-tellers for p
19:24 asciilifeform *at least 3/4
19:24 asciilifeform usually much moar
19:24 feedbot http://trilema.com/2019/gambit/ << Trilema -- Gambit
19:25 mircea_popescu the problem's converse : construct k integers that are false witnesses for the primality of the pq product.
19:25 asciilifeform ( troof-teller i.e. correctly triggers m-r's 'this is composite' litmus )
19:25 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: takes same time as to find m-r false witness for anyffing else
19:26 asciilifeform i.e. throw p*q in m-r , with random witness, and see if correctly outputs 'composite'
19:26 asciilifeform rinse, repeat
19:26 asciilifeform q is whether there is a better algo
19:26 mircea_popescu ima have to dig this up, pretty sure i read up on this (very limited) mewthod of constructing m-r false witnesses for a two-primes product.
19:26 asciilifeform cuz this one is 'geological'
19:27 mircea_popescu the principal problem with it was that they ended up large.
19:27 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: that'd entirely fit the bill, if you find it
19:27 asciilifeform esp. if it runs in human time
19:28 asciilifeform then can say 'enemy who fed you a magic p, and then 32 selected witnesses, can lead you off cliff'
19:28 mircea_popescu there is ~some~ overlap between carmichael and m-r (eg 1729 is a pretty reliable flase witness).
19:28 * asciilifeform quite interested in conceptual diddles on m-r in light of phuctor
19:28 mircea_popescu in fact m-r is a sorta upgraded fermat
19:29 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the operative diff is, 3/4 is lower bound. i.e. there aint a composite where 3/4 of the integers aint proper witness.
19:29 mircea_popescu i just me4ant formally, p ^ n-1 = 1 vs p ^ (n-1)/2 = +-1
19:29 asciilifeform somehow enemy gotta feed you errything other than those 3/4..
19:31 mircea_popescu finding the nontrivial square roots of 1 modulo n is a hard problem ; but constructing some is not. anyway, not right now in the best form to go through archives but will see to this.
19:32 asciilifeform ty mircea_popescu , plox to post if/when find
19:33 mircea_popescu you're in luck!
19:33 mircea_popescu https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0747717185710425
19:33 asciilifeform neato ( tho could've sworn nao that we had it in log... )
19:33 mircea_popescu dood actually lists a 400 digit number to which ~300 items are strong liars
19:33 mircea_popescu (bases of a)
19:34 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, it wouldn't surprise me if we did, no.
19:35 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: dun suppose you have the text lying around?
19:39 mircea_popescu packed somewhere im sure, but im not gonna proceed extracting rightnao.
19:39 asciilifeform aite, if anyone finds, plz post
19:39 asciilifeform iirc i saw this item at some pt, and fella really did bake a p that 'passes m-r' for buncha ~small~ bases
19:40 asciilifeform ( as used in kochisms )
19:41 asciilifeform what'd be interesting is to find algo that bakes a large composite n , and shits forth arbitrary # of 'plausible-looking' large but false witnesses
19:41 asciilifeform ( even moar interesting, would be to find litmus for some variant of this being in use, then could point it at phuctor collection & pull trigger )
19:42 mircea_popescu in more practical terms : about 1/4 of products of strong liars are also strong liars, which is another constructive direction.
19:42 mircea_popescu ie, you don';t have to try "all", but do try all mutual products of all known carmichael numbers.
19:43 asciilifeform iirc it is how the linked item worked
19:43 asciilifeform or something quite like
19:43 * asciilifeform frustrated, could've sworn he saw it with own eyes at some pt
19:45 feedbot http://bingology.net/2019/03/27/peso-watch-march-2019/ << Bingology - BingoBoingo's Blog -- Peso Watch March 2019
19:47 mircea_popescu the http://btcbase.org/log/2019-03-27#1905222 item is relevant, because if you were to enumerate the pairs you'd be looking at 20mn!/2!(20mn-2)!, which is truly a staggering nuymber, of possible liars of a size up to 10^40
19:47 a111 Logged on 2019-03-27 23:22 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform, there's eg ~20mn carmichael numbers under 10^20
19:47 mircea_popescu but even taking a small selection among these to produce a sieve, and then churning a bunch of composites through it, might produce some lulz.
19:48 asciilifeform all of this , as i understand, only is interesting if enemy knows (or can set) which will be your witnesses. cuz by basic m-r , 3/4 of possible inputs for witness will still give correct diagnosis of compositude
19:48 mircea_popescu all of this is only interesting if enemy can set your witnesses, correct.
19:48 mircea_popescu i thought that's what we were looking at.
19:48 asciilifeform right
19:48 asciilifeform in koch for instance.
19:49 asciilifeform will be lulzy if we end up finding that koch's 'whitener' actually optimizes for sad N
19:50 mircea_popescu another piece of the puzzle is that while small numbers are ~perfect~ witnesses for up to a certain value, they become terrible witnesses thereupon, which is why small witnesses are useless in crypto
19:50 mircea_popescu (and also why the usual crowd of http://btcbase.org/log/2019-01-02#1883944 systematically push them)
19:50 a111 Logged on 2019-01-02 18:57 mircea_popescu: what's hilarious is the ever-present http://trilema.com/2017/global-warming-on-triton/#selection-154.0-157.103 whereby they'll imaginarily seat themselves in my seat and start spewing http://btcbase.org/log/2018-05-04#1809349 slash assorted nonsense about "homebrew crypto" lalala.
19:50 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: recall, the derpcrypto folx use not only small, but ~fixed~ witnesses, lol
19:53 asciilifeform ahahaha the 'ohnoez , homebrew crypto' people
19:53 * asciilifeform is almost surprised none of'em left comment in ffa series, 'bbbut didntcha read in schneier, you oughtnt homebrew crypto!11'
20:00 mircea_popescu asciilifeform, the problem with that 3/4 figure is that it's ~an average~ (obtained by a very trivial calculation). there's no known way to evaluate the statistical divergence over a finite set.
20:00 mircea_popescu moreover, it's likely that a set of 100% consecutive liars of arbitrary length can be found.
20:00 asciilifeform mno, ~at least~ 3/4 of numberline provably nails any given composite.
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20:00 mircea_popescu yes of numberline. definitely. but not of "x to y" interval for close x, y.
20:01 asciilifeform correct, it dun tell you where they are.
20:01 mircea_popescu right. and it dun tell you ~to any degree~.
20:01 asciilifeform aha!
20:01 mircea_popescu not at all.
20:01 asciilifeform which is why interesting q
20:01 asciilifeform very little is known re how distributed.
20:01 mircea_popescu right.
20:03 mircea_popescu in any case, to get back to the previous line : afaik all m-r liars are also carmichael numbers.
20:04 mircea_popescu small sets of small liars are trivially produced, eg 1 , 8 , 18 , 47 , 57 , 64 are liars for 5 * 13.
20:05 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2978#selection-3117.1-3141.67 << for 3215031751 : 2, 3, 5, 7 false witnesses in m-r , but none of'em are carmichael (of which smallest is 561)
20:06 mircea_popescu hm.
20:07 mircea_popescu yeah ; more properly : there is a class of numbers that are both carmichael numbers and strong liars.
20:07 asciilifeform recall, carmichael # is where x^(n-1) = 1 mod n for all x that are relatively prime to n
20:07 mircea_popescu yes.
20:07 asciilifeform i.e. x^n = x mod n , ditto
20:08 asciilifeform aha
20:13 mircea_popescu anyway, i guess what i'm tryingto say is that if i were looking to dig among the liar set i'd be mostly trying to guide it by the charmicael set.
20:13 mircea_popescu but i don't have all that great a "whu"
20:13 mircea_popescu why*
20:14 asciilifeform it's what i distinctly recall from that piece, will revisit when i dredge up a copy
20:16 asciilifeform incidentally, and for thread-completeness, gotta add, for certain patterns of failed m-r sequence , you end up with output that gets you a factor. this item is actually on the phuctor conveyor, when i get a free hand to crank it again
20:17 asciilifeform ( for 'honest' prime gen, where there's actually 2 primes of the traditional bitness, this ~never happens. but for others.. )
20:28 trinque hey folks, just a heads-up that castle trinque is running on batteries atm due to a blown transformer. wallet will be around while batteries last, after which we'll be awaiting the mains.
20:32 * mircea_popescu is contemplating having a generating cage made.
20:34 mircea_popescu wouldn't that be hot af ?
20:36 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: generating cage ? i.e. with hupet in large wheel turning gen ?
20:36 mircea_popescu yup.
20:36 trinque this is what I pictured, lol
20:36 trinque awesome
20:37 mircea_popescu well, ideally paired cages, for balance. it is pretty heavy machinery...
20:37 asciilifeform wainot, if they already turn wheels at gym..
20:37 mircea_popescu im totally gonna look into this. what's the big deal, a generator and some welding.
20:37 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: funnily enuff, even cheapo current gen. of gym stationary bikes, actually include gens, they simply dump the current in resistor
20:38 asciilifeform imho mega-waste, oughta come with plug
20:38 mircea_popescu aha!
20:38 asciilifeform so conceivably you dun need a gigantic hamster wheel, could rewire ordinary bike thing
20:38 mircea_popescu but gigantgic hamster wheel in dank cellar quite the pic.
20:39 asciilifeform a healthy biped can put out 100+ watt , sustained, on bike
20:39 asciilifeform but yes
20:39 mircea_popescu i expect more like 3-4-500 in wheel, use bodyweight
20:41 asciilifeform https://archive.is/SvAG5 << wehrmacht , 'tm5a1'
20:43 asciilifeform brits also had, but i dun recall what was called
20:44 feedbot http://qntra.net/2019/03/rescued-migrants-hijack-commercial-vessel-at-sea/ << Qntra -- Rescued Migrants Hijack Commercial Vessel At Sea
20:44 asciilifeform https://archive.is/mTfOP << better pic.
20:47 asciilifeform trinque: i thought you had diesel
20:47 mircea_popescu trinque, as it happens i was gonna do a buncha small payments, but deedb ot not answering to !!withdraw ?
20:48 * asciilifeform does not have diesel, thought about it but ~0 point, given that upstream fiber people seem to only have ~2hr of battery, so went 'i'ma also 2h..'
20:49 mircea_popescu nothing wrong with keeping a spare sat or radio connection. or both i guess
20:49 asciilifeform i have the latter, but it's kept in cold reserve, rather than auto
20:49 * asciilifeform dun like to have moar microwave background than strictly must
20:51 mircea_popescu trinque, http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/xMxQL/?raw=true
20:54 asciilifeform this is 1 of the wins of rk, thing can live on 3W
20:55 asciilifeform i.e. what actual hamster could turn out in his wheel..
20:55 mircea_popescu then again who wants to fuck hamsters.
20:55 asciilifeform point
20:55 mircea_popescu i don't think it's dead though, answers to eg !!key. mayhap something i'm fucking up syntax-wise.
20:56 mircea_popescu got knows wouldn't be first time.
20:57 * asciilifeform pictures castle mircea_popescustein with uboat-style battery room, what with the little cart that one rides lying on back to test electrolyte etc
20:57 asciilifeform funnily enuff, sov nuke vessels still had'em. backup to diesels which in turn backup to the 2 reactors
20:58 asciilifeform was thought, if you have 160 hands on the ship, may as well also battery
20:58 mircea_popescu the thing with subs is that failure means failure, there's no "oh, no brakes, stopped car in ditch".
20:58 mircea_popescu whole thing goes three miles underwater.
20:59 asciilifeform ( seems extravagant, until you remember that you can't submerge on diesels )
20:59 mircea_popescu of course you can, airtanks.
20:59 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 500 m. for the typical
20:59 mircea_popescu even soviets had these
20:59 asciilifeform airtank only good for vertical. battery if you care to also move..
20:59 mircea_popescu no, i mean, air tank to run diesel engine off of.
21:00 mircea_popescu not very far, but >0
21:00 asciilifeform to ~start~ diesel
21:00 mircea_popescu hm
21:00 asciilifeform it was the germans who tried to actually ~run~ ship on compressed air. in ww1. did not ( surprise? ) go far.
21:00 mircea_popescu ~everyone does this now ; im pretty sure soviets also did.
21:01 asciilifeform for torpedo.
21:01 asciilifeform it dun scale.
21:01 mircea_popescu hm
21:01 asciilifeform ( why not, will leave as exercise )
21:01 mircea_popescu in truth, never actually looked into this too closely.
21:02 asciilifeform compressed gas aint so great as energy store, you lose just about errything you put in , to pv = nRT
21:03 asciilifeform there was a sovok train engine with no boiler . for last-mile into factory with combustibles. filled with steam, off-site, went for ~40min after.
21:03 asciilifeform afaik that was the last word on the tech.
21:04 asciilifeform '50s.
21:05 asciilifeform https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLfa43_1WH8 << oblig german diesel air start .
21:05 mircea_popescu not as energy store ; as oxygenation tank.
21:06 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: ~that~ one was jp
21:06 asciilifeform and worked
21:06 asciilifeform afaik modern folx still tryin' to resurrect tech
21:06 mircea_popescu im pretty sure it's common now.
21:06 asciilifeform if it is, i missed
21:07 mircea_popescu the engines won't go very far on it (in no small part because it';s almost never taken to ~water density, ie, 800 or so atmospheres) ; but there's still a lot of air that can be fit in some not-so-huge tanks.
21:07 * asciilifeform aficionado mostly of sovok fleet , not up to date on newfangled
21:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: iirc they used peroxide as oxidizer, rather than compressed o2
21:08 mircea_popescu afaik it's just compressed air, taken when up.
21:08 asciilifeform rright but generally you would not want a bottle of 800atm on a boat that might have to live with depth charges nearby etc
21:09 asciilifeform bad enuff that you gotta have the 400atm ballast cistern
21:09 mircea_popescu afaik it's internally organized much like the "car battery" : a buncha half-liter cells inside a lined tank
21:09 asciilifeform possib that this was done in recent yrs, i missed.
21:10 mircea_popescu all part of work to make silent subs ; even the exhaust gets bottled.
21:11 asciilifeform in '90s americans built little sub with li-ion (french) battery , iirc
21:12 asciilifeform coupla hrs of sail , from ~300kg crate
21:12 asciilifeform nfi what became of this
21:12 asciilifeform ( prolly 'tailhooked' )
21:13 asciilifeform the only source iirc for this item was an old ru report .
21:13 asciilifeform possibly -- vapourware.
21:20 mircea_popescu meanwhile in ancient trilemas, http://trilema.com/2012/o-fata-pe-gustul-meu/
21:20 mircea_popescu "say mp, who was your favourite american ?" "dora dufran"
21:26 trinque mircea_popescu: away from keys atm (sought power) but oughta work now. lmk if not
21:27 mircea_popescu now it answers ty
21:28 trinque cool, np
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