Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-02-17 | 2018-02-19 → ↓
00:02 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784582 << >> http://logs.bvulpes.com/pizarro
00:02 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 04:41 hanbot: n stands: why are they not logged?
00:04 trinque I'd say any judgment of how they're doing (at what, a day in?) is premature.
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00:07 hanbot sure, fine logs starting today. what were the "discussions" variously mentioned, that led to this point? what, if anything, has been the resolution of the problem in which 50% of the ownership refuses to meet own deadlines?
00:07 trinque when the fuck did you want them to start, exactly?
00:07 hanbot possibly i missed earlier logs?
00:09 hanbot trinque i specifically mean the content of i.e. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-17#1784462 , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-17#1784415 , http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-14#1784065
00:09 a111 Logged on 2018-02-17 19:20 mod6: Our plan is to publish what are plan is, we're working on that literally, right now.
00:09 a111 Logged on 2018-02-17 15:22 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: The new management is working out the details for their clean takeover of the remains of BBISP as a new venture. I defer the revelation of details to management.
00:09 a111 Logged on 2018-02-14 20:34 mod6: jurov: We're working out the details on that. Good question though.
00:10 trinque so leaving alf aside, when two folks dive on this boondoggle of a business venture to right it, we're going to suspect their methods and forget their long reputations?
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00:12 hanbot not at all (where's that?). the question is where's the discussion that brought them to the document published today, and if that discussion's private, why?
00:18 trinque earlier diana_coman's bitching they didn't define the day-old business venture. now you're bitching they didn't tell you why they chose that definition, a few hours later.
00:18 trinque I see pointless sniping and nothing further.
00:20 hanbot trinque i'm not asking to be told anything. i'm asking why there were "discussions" over the course of several days that haven't been made public. this isn't to gripe at anyone, this is an attempt to preserve what's possibly the most useful tool of the republic, i.e. logging.
00:21 mod6 Hi hanbot.
00:21 hanbot heya mod6
00:21 mod6 This was my decision.
00:22 mod6 I wanted to give us some space to find out the details, to discuss everything involved. I for one, even having been in #trilema the entire time, and even having read BB's blog posts about BBISP, I still wanted to give BB the space to discuss with us all the details.
00:23 mod6 Things like, what the bills were, where they need to be sent, who would do what. This kind of thing.
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00:24 mod6 Quite frankly, and I hope BB doesn't mind me saying so, we kinda needed to even talk him into it. I think he was in quite a state of dismay at the whole thing. And I find it appropriate that we did that.
00:24 mod6 There isn't anything to hide. We've been forthcoming about the entire venture.
00:24 mod6 Does that satisfy your curiosity?
00:27 hanbot aha. bills & addys and similar stuff being private makes sense; why's who would do what private, though? ah, that kind of "space". yes, it satisfies my curiosity, thank you for clarifying. fwiw i'm not sure what can be gained from "space" as such - often what's most uncomfortable is what best leads to recovery and growth. but obviously your choice(s).
00:27 mod6 I guess I'll also add this: I agree that logging is very important. But lately, in here, emotions have been running high. And while trying to figure out the details, I need to focus and not read through hundreds of lines of cross talk and bickering.
00:28 hanbot is the matter of what's going to be done re asciilifeform's current...stance also private?
00:28 mod6 I don't think so at all. His role is outlined in the drafted document we posted above.
00:29 mod6 Weather men admit wrongdoing or not, my hope is that men learn from the previous mistakes.
00:29 hanbot sure, but given recent refusal to meet deadlines, why would a given customer expect to receive reliable service?
00:29 hanbot ah.
00:30 mod6 Because he said he would. And asciilifeform has done a lot for us over the years. Invaluable things. Dispite, failures. I've failed too, hopefully I'm getting better also.
00:30 hanbot yes, but see, you own up to it.
00:30 mod6 Well, no one is perfect right.
00:31 trinque neh this much is true. I tried to pin alf earlier. he oughta reread that conversation.
00:31 trinque he skitters sideways when certain triggers are hit and changes the subject
00:32 hanbot mod6 indeed. but frankly, i haven't seen him say he would meet deadlines.
00:33 mod6 I have too, and I recently read the entire thread on diana_coman's blog too. The whole thing. I know shortcomings have impacted lots of things. He's not the only one guitly of that. And even though I don't excuse anyones failures, I'm going to forgive. We've gained more than we've lost. In my estimation.
00:35 mod6 I mean look, here's an example: I waited like nearly 4 years for an FG. But he delivered, and it works. It's a marvel, this FG. I think the fact that we have it, and it works, is more important than how long it took to realize.
00:36 trinque gotta also admit that the enemy will not wait for you to be done with your superweapon.
00:36 mod6 After the first "Hey, we're getting FGs for xmas!" And then it didn't come, for like 2 more xmas's... i could have simply negrated him.
00:36 mod6 But I gave him the benefit of the doubt.
00:37 hanbot mod6 i know the strife is unpleasant, and i admire your drive to right things. but there's an actual extant problem here, which, if merely forgiven, lends nothing to the notion the problem will cease.
00:37 trinque hanbot: how do you resolve the man's issue then.
00:37 trinque not a pointed question, an honest one
00:38 trinque because he's the type that apparently cannot dishonor himself by e.g. shipping a less-than-alf fuckgoats
00:38 mod6 <+trinque> gotta also admit that the enemy will not wait for you to be done with your superweapon. << also totally true.
00:39 trinque can say "time manage" and etc but the philosophical structure in his head will not permit works with ideological inconsistency to ship
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00:40 mod6 hanbot: i don't expect anyones "blind spots" or "deficiantcies" to go away over night. we'll work with him to make sure things happen they way they need to do so, when they need to do so.
00:42 mod6 Furthermore, I may be the only investor left in S.NSA, and I would very much like to see it continue.
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00:42 hanbot trinque : as in alcoholism, person wanting to quit has to --want to quit--. that's what i'm not seeing.
00:43 mod6 I would like to see asciilifeform and mircea_popescu somehow come back to the table and continue their very important work together.
00:45 hanbot naturally, eh. me too.
00:45 trinque hanbot: problem of the practitioner is still how to jam that into the sick skull.
00:45 mod6 hanbot: I can't speak for asciilifeform and make him state things. But, perhaps if we kept a public calendar of what is happening when, might give the public some comfort that tasks are getting completed on time.
00:46 trinque or everyone's head comes off.
00:46 mod6 Do you believe that would add some comfort?
00:48 hanbot mod6 i think that's a great idea. i dunno about comfort (and i'm not asking for it, nor is it anyone else's to give me), but it'd certainly add some clarity, and keep things accountable.
00:48 hanbot trinque not only is it a problem of how to jam it in, but who's job is it?
00:49 trinque autodidacticism has been thoroughly trashed in the logs
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00:49 mod6 Alright then. It'll be really helpful I think for all of us. I, for one, literally have like 69000 things to keep up with these days.
00:50 hanbot mod6 at some point many years ago i had a tracker to keep track of my trackers. hang in there.
00:52 mod6 lol
00:52 mod6 ok
00:55 trinque hanbot: I apologize for snapping at you. I think ben_vulpes and mod6 are doing a great thing coming in to try and save the project.
00:55 trinque if someone wants asciilifeform's shares they are apparently for sale; they were offered to me
00:57 trinque probably plenty of ways to improve their process from here, yet the thing was dead in the water, republic declared dead without hosting, and some folks came together against that.
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00:59 mod6 That we did. And I for one, would love to see Mr. Popescu to come back and be the father to the republic.
01:00 hanbot trinque true. i suppose some things can't be learned without an actual beating, delivered by an actual expert whisk. i don't really know to jam it into the sick skull, i guess. and no harm done, i've always appreciated your directness.
01:00 mod6 However, each man gets to decide if he wants to partake in the Republic. Mr. Popescu always said he would eventually leave. And I respect that. Just wish it wasn't in anger.
01:09 trinque night all.
01:23 mod6 night trinque
~ 7 hours 40 minutes ~
09:04 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784630 << i think this isn't a satisfactory description of the issue for two reasons. one is that the man doesn't have merely very exacting standards, but a binome of which half is exacting standards and the other half is looser than a crack whore's butthole.
09:04 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 05:39 trinque: can say "time manage" and etc but the philosophical structure in his head will not permit works with ideological inconsistency to ship
09:04 mircea_popescu think of it, the ~same guy~ who's saying ridiculous, and ridiculously unexamined things about boats, the http protocol and so on is also the same man willing to have mod6 do days' worth of testing with items swapped around to establish nothing in particular.
09:05 mircea_popescu to him, it's not worth to take three seconds of his own time to think $random item through ; but to him it is also worth taking three days of another man's time (and often enough, the misfortunate other man is he himself!) to do nothing in particular with them.
09:05 mircea_popescu the other issue is that the exacting standards part of the binome aren't exacting to a ~rational~ standard, they're exacting to a psychogenic standard. he's perfectly willing to take steps to alienproof his sub because he's seen alien pirates board a sub in a B movie once, that's the standard, what he can ~imagine~ occuring, not so much what he has good reason to believe may occur.
09:05 mircea_popescu i don't, for the record, think there's anything even vaguely like malice involved. i think it's simply ambered childishness, which he has managed to preserve unexamined so long into his adult life because he's never before found himself among people intelligent enough to force him to examine it. the signs of this are ubiquitous and i won't belabour,
09:06 mircea_popescu suffice to point out that evidently enough the whole binome as described is adaptive rather than designed. and it MUST be examined, and it must be repaired, rather than indulging in just as childish deflection. o noes, ~i~ of all people want to drive s.nsa into a wall, fancy that wonder!
09:06 mircea_popescu the slowest release schedule in the world and all the rest of the stuff people don't say because they're affraid i might crack them one if they did say it certainly aren't driving anything into anything, rite. because we're playing Alf's Beginner Transaction Psychopathology and it's all explained in there in the inside of the top of the box!
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09:07 mircea_popescu so no, how about we don't discuss the random nonsense some 9yo captive inside stan would in his panicked despair have us rather occupy ourselves with. instead, exactly in trinque's practical terms : what the fuck am i going to do with a s.nsa resting on the clavicle of a grown man with 9yo shoulders!
09:07 mircea_popescu originally i was going to just call it off, have it liquidated and so on. because yes eventually it has to come to this, nsa was started on the premise that "here is a talented engineer who evidently has little ability to take direction or manage himself, but which we're construing as due to poor prior context and expect will remedy itself, by itself, in short order".
09:07 mircea_popescu what fucking short order, the end of a five year plan is nigh on in sight! by a cool account he's not gotten better at it, arguably he's even gotten worse at it, wut the everloving fuck do ?! tell me, and make sense while doing the telling!
09:09 mircea_popescu otherwise, i think it's sufficiently self-obvious that nobody wants more crappy items. we've enough of those around to last a century. but i also won't sit still while being railroaded into a false choice between crappy items and never items ; if for no other reason then because too many people depend on me being at least slightly smarter than that.
09:10 mircea_popescu that aside : danielpbarron phf what ever became of those fgs ?
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~ 17 minutes ~
09:27 deedbot http://thetarpit.org/posts/y04/06b-dining-in-troglodyte-lands.html << The Tar Pit - How to (not) dine in troglodyte lands in N very simple steps
09:39 BingoBoingo It seems a lot like a case of http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-11#1783251 spread out over a longer timeline. Begun when the blades spun slower and when http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784662 along with flashes of marvelous alien tech could staunch the sating. Here as in BBIsp there is fanaticism for the cause in spades. An open question is whether more involved middle management could improve alf's tasking or is there going to be a
09:39 a111 Logged on 2018-02-11 14:05 mircea_popescu: the reason i'm cutting you out is because we have very poor fit, i'm a "provide general guidance and hangings" sort of manager and you evidently need a mommy, to check whether you packed your lunch and to ask if you need to pee every so often. should you find one you can certainly thrive, but you've not found her in me is all.
09:39 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 14:06 mircea_popescu: the slowest release schedule in the world and all the rest of the stuff people don't say because they're affraid i might crack them one if they did say it certainly aren't driving anything into anything, rite. because we're playing Alf's Beginner Transaction Psychopathology and it's all explained in there in the inside of the top of the box!
09:39 BingoBoingo temperment problem in asciilifeform resisting direction or a middle manager's eyes glossing over and slacking the discipline after glimpses of tech that isn't shit.
09:40 BingoBoingo Boy feelings are complicated and mircea_popescu has well earned another rum and girlie fueled retirement or semi-retirement. Wat do indeed?
09:41 mircea_popescu there's a fundamental difference there bb, in that isp is a thing whereas most of what we're making is noit a thing. making a thing requires following the recipe, whereas making not-yet-a-thing is basically figuring out a recipe.
09:41 mircea_popescu so nsa doesn't in this sense have the same sort of problem. it's a crisis of faith not of management.
09:42 mircea_popescu so in no case what he needs is middle management ; moreover i expect half his problems come from inept fiatworld having its usual "one solution to end all problems".
09:44 BingoBoingo This is a point. During a solid chunk of my formative young adult years my brain was somewhat insulated from a lot of the fiat world crap through having been preserved in cosmoline. And by cosmoline I mean cheap vodka.
09:49 danielpbarron mircea_popescu, the pogos? i sent them and phf has them
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09:49 mircea_popescu alrighty ty.
09:49 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes / mod6 do you want these ? (which one of you do i talk about re day to day bbisp bidniss ?).
09:50 mircea_popescu danielpbarron if they dun want them, do you take backsies ?
09:50 danielpbarron yes
09:50 mircea_popescu cool deal.
~ 24 minutes ~
10:15 shinohai gm #trilema
10:19 BingoBoingo mornin shinohai
10:19 shinohai Buenas dias, k tal?
10:20 BingoBoingo Bien y vos?
10:23 shinohai Bien, gracias. Finally a nice sunny morning after a week of clouds and rain.
10:28 BingoBoingo Disfruta tu clima
~ 1 hours 39 minutes ~
12:08 mircea_popescu !!up freetlas
12:08 deedbot freetlas voiced for 30 minutes.
12:09 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-17#1784449 << i said i was going to check in a coupla times a week!
12:09 a111 Logged on 2018-02-17 19:15 mod6: Upon the failure of bbisp, and Mr. Popescu's leaving TMSR, The Bitcoin Foundation, in a last-ditch effort to save the ISventure and the Republic (http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-13#1783471), has chosen to try to determine how / if it can do this without any outside interference.
12:09 shinohai Afternoon, mircea_popescu .... enjoyed latest trilema thoroughly. Has been week of toucans between you and hanbot ^.^
12:09 mircea_popescu they're pretty fucking cool. apparently there's many species, BUT! most of them have a buzz haircut!
12:09 mircea_popescu hysterical feature on a bird.
12:10 shinohai ikr? Remind me of some villain from Teenage Mutant Ninja Turtles or something.
12:11 mircea_popescu ya
12:11 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-17#1784473 << sure, how does this work ?
12:11 a111 Logged on 2018-02-17 19:30 a111: Logged on 2016-10-04 14:17 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform in other news i registered #loper-os and #asciilifeform defensively ; whenever you feel like building them up say and i'll pass them along.
12:12 mircea_popescu asciilifeform apparently i have to flag you as F on them ; for which we have to both be in. so at your leisure.
12:22 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-17#1784506 << on the strength of metaphor, though. mind you don't end up like the apprentice wizard, discovering with some surprise the spells don't work as immediately as he thought they do.
12:22 a111 Logged on 2018-02-17 19:48 asciilifeform: lobbes: but do they ? the old serene republic, of venice, died to a man. and here we are, picking up the weapons
12:25 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: i'm more interested in the remaining supplies of fuckgoats; can i get a quote for 15 of them?
12:27 mod6 monin', catchin up here.
12:31 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> ben_vulpes / mod6 do you want these ? (which one of you do i talk about re day to day bbisp bidniss ?). << you can talk to me any time about these things, or anything else really.
12:33 mod6 If I don't know the answer straight off, will ask ben_vulpes or whomever needs to be asked.
12:34 mod6 I expect quick turn around on questions -- As when emailing support, most queries can be responded to quickly. Others, maybe take 24-48 hours to have sorted.
12:37 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes phf currently has two dozen that either fly to you or back to dbp, so which is it ?
12:37 ben_vulpes send them to me please, stand by for mailing address
12:38 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes forward it to phf directly ; phf sorry for the bondogle, send me the bill for the mailing ; danielpbarron invoice bbisp cc mod6 for the pile.
12:38 mircea_popescu yay, one thing resolved!
12:38 mod6 Ok nice.
12:38 mod6 I'm assuming the cost for these won't sink us right
12:39 mod6 ?
12:39 mod6 Any idea the cost, ballpark?
12:39 mircea_popescu i am assuming so too. if the bill is balk-worthy we figure something out.
12:39 mod6 Ok sounds good.
12:39 mircea_popescu well, get it out of him.
12:39 mod6 :]
12:40 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-17#1784512 << it goes deeper than this. in a start-up, all debt is bonds and all bonds are convertible, because who the fuck would lend without equity implication to such a thing as a start-up
12:40 a111 Logged on 2018-02-17 19:50 diana_coman: mod6, a stake in something is never "debt only" really the way I see it; honestly, would you offer to take an "iou" while at the same time being totally unwilling to even give advice if asked?
12:41 mircea_popescu anyway ; there's a lot of business experience in disparate fields that has to be handled, and often the handling drives unexpected results and so on. part and parcel of the problem is that bitcoin ain't consumer finance and few people have any notion of anything else in that whole wide field.
12:41 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-17#1784517 << loller.
12:41 a111 Logged on 2018-02-17 19:51 trinque: so reform. take your texan short fuse and lengthen, or what, wrong file, sorry.
12:42 mircea_popescu "you know what's better than tattoos ?" "hm ?" "scars" "but why ?" "at least they're genuine."
12:42 mod6 Fair enough, I may have just looked at the debt to be paid to you at face value -- just a simple bill that needed to be paid, as opposed to 'bonds' or something else.
12:42 mircea_popescu mod6 let's do a side trip here and learn pricing of capital. so what would you say is included in the bill for the use of capital ?
12:43 mod6 Something extra in return.
12:43 ben_vulpes phf: please to send fg's to http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/kcjWc/?raw=true
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12:43 mircea_popescu like, the bill for the use of a hotel room is made up of a) the opportunity cost (what that room would have made if not given to you but to another) and b) the indemnity cost (ie, what all you wore down, ruined, stained and destroyed in there)
12:43 mircea_popescu make sense ?
12:43 mod6 yeah, for sure.
12:44 mircea_popescu if i lend a btc to a guy, in a market where the discount rate (what AVERAGE capital returns are as per a, like the "cost of hotel rooms in this season/city) is 5% and whose survival rate is 33%
12:44 mircea_popescu my capital will then cost 1 * 1.05 * 3 = 4.15. so he has to pay 3.15 to get the 1.
12:44 mircea_popescu that make sense ?
12:45 ben_vulpes (not to derail, but i've moved the Pizarro provisional charter to http://pizarroisp.net/?p=3 , comments actively sought from eg diana_coman hanbot mircea_popescu lobbes )
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12:45 mod6 thanks ben_vulpes
12:45 mircea_popescu i'll catch it with teh rest of the logs.
12:45 mod6 mircea_popescu: yeah, in this sense -- 33% being the indemnity cost?
12:45 mircea_popescu 300%. yes. because 3 * .33 = 1.
12:46 mircea_popescu so now ... the COST of carrying capital as debt goes up immensely as soon as survival rates drop very slightly. start-up are notoriously unsurvivey, and so their debt would cost so much as to ensure their failure.
12:47 mircea_popescu the only possible solution is convertible debt, ie, if they strike it big, you have some sort of claim, for the risk you took. and that is why all start-up debt is really convertible bonds in practice.
12:47 * mod6 reads 2x
12:49 mod6 Alright, so as things in a start-up start to go south business-wise, for whatever reason, i.e. product sucks, whatever, the corresponding revenue/credit crunch makes it more and more difficult to service the debt.
12:50 mod6 (Am I following here?)
12:50 mircea_popescu nobody teaches these (basic, really, should be highschool) notions, and so people don't understand how humanity is, and was built. but bonds are a very sensitive actuarial tool, they react amplifiedly to death danger. whereas equity is a very sensitive to gains. and more generally, finance is worth studying altogether, it makes one smarter.
12:50 mircea_popescu mod6 consider it with numbers. if a guy's survival probability is 95% and the discount rate is 5%, then for every coin he pays to service his debt, HALF covers the 95% and the other half the actual opportunity cost.
12:51 mircea_popescu if his survival rate is 85%, he pays FOUR TIMES the discount rate.
12:51 mircea_popescu (this, incidentally, is why us real estate first time buyers pay 6% even though the fed rate is .75% ; and this is HOW fed rates drive monetary policy. see ?)
12:52 mod6 *nod*
12:53 mircea_popescu anyway, the formula above stands : the capital (1 above) multiplied by the discount rate (1.05 above) multiplied by the survival odds (3 in the 33% survival rate example ; could as well be 10 in the 10% survival rate example, which iirc is what start-ups historically do)
12:53 mircea_popescu because, obviously, if i lend to someone who has 10% chances of surviving, i want 10x my money so i can lend to ten of them and get a (slight, 5% sort of slight) profit.
12:56 mod6 you figure, one in ten should make it, then you get your 5%.
12:57 mircea_popescu right.
13:00 mod6 Alright, well, I think I might be missing something between the lines.
13:01 ben_vulpes for a convertible note like that, how'd you go about setting the conversion rate? lots of yelling?
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13:01 mod6 I may, indeed, need some education on basic finance. When it came to the .8 BTC owed to you, I never figured in anything like that. Are there terms that we were unaware of? Do you feel owed more than .8 BTC?
13:03 mod6 (fwiw, I mearly read ".8 BTC debt to MP" as something of a personal loan to BB since he was owner)
13:04 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-17#1784526 << if i never said this on trilema i regret it, because yes, totally.
13:04 a111 Logged on 2018-02-17 19:53 BingoBoingo: diana_coman: One thing I've learned people watching here... It turns out boys are the shy gender.
13:04 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes it's negotiated at some point. there's lengthy practice on the subject, of course.
13:04 mircea_popescu mod6 the .8 was a cash payment, the matter is entirely resolved.
13:04 mircea_popescu that's why you pay cash, so you don't have to care.
13:04 mod6 Ok, that makes sense to me.
13:05 mircea_popescu but no, it wasn't a personal loan to bb, it was a loan to bb's corp which bb guaranteed ; but which guarantee i let lapse when i sold (ie, didn't transfer to you, ie, yo ucan't now ask him for 2 btc * 8k usd or w/e the exact numbers were)
13:06 mod6 ok. i see.
13:07 mircea_popescu alternatively i might've not sold, and pursue him. this is the sort of option capital offers one -- you can always take your pick of two options in this vein. and if you can't, you've been swindled, not doing business.
13:07 mod6 aha.
13:07 mircea_popescu ie, there is an unbroken tree of outright causes all the way to the prime mover, we don't say "this is a scam" because emotionally.
13:07 mircea_popescu there's criteria.
13:08 mircea_popescu and this is the financial statement of why socialism is always and necessarily a scam, while at it.,
13:11 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-17#1784539 << lol check him out.
13:11 a111 Logged on 2018-02-17 20:01 mod6: This is the moment when you affirm your support, or you do not, and throw your hat in the ring to take the reigns from mod6.
13:12 mod6 Totally srs too tho!
13:14 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784567 << hanbot summarize this wouldja.
13:14 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 01:18 mod6: Also, all, the log for #pizarro is here: http://logs.bvulpes.com/pizarro
13:14 hanbot mircea_popescu sure thing, gimmie a coupla mins
13:21 hanbot mircea_popescu basically they made a constitution ( http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/A5yUZ/?raw=true / just moved to http://pizarroisp.net/?p=3 ) yesterday, there's no releasing of whatever private discussions prior. they're going to do some power testing on customer boxes as a courtesy. ben_vulpes is going to take a few boxes there maybe next month. BingoBoingo "unsnarled" an mp-wp of unknown provenance, sadly he can't use the genesis item yet. some
13:21 hanbot wrangling re buying fg from nsa, who handles suppliers, etc. punkman already there trying to silver-tongue them back into the velvety embrace of pantsuitlandia.
13:21 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784583 << yes, alright, but the problem implicit in all this is that one day customer comes in to complain his box was mysteriously rebooted and the response is "well actually we had a secret agreement to reboot once a year the boxes of people whose key ends in F, so..." ; ie very much a rehash of the http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-08#1599120 problem. because ultimately that's what the empir
13:21 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 04:59 trinque: appears to me the gents are getting things together for a clear, coherent offering.
13:21 a111 Logged on 2017-01-08 04:43 mircea_popescu: now - wut of all of this ? maybe it was the same guy, i guess, maybe there was a conspiracy to reboot the server, i guess, maybe etcetera. i'm unconvinced nor do i see it matters any.
13:21 mircea_popescu e is, "like a republic but with secret agreements". and it proved (again, not to some sort of emo, but in actual practice) to not be good enough.
13:21 mircea_popescu hanbot heh isn't that cute. link re punkman ?
13:22 hanbot http://logs.bvulpes.com/pizarro?d=2018-2-1#304871
13:22 mircea_popescu !!rated punkman
13:22 deedbot mircea_popescu rated punkman -1 at 2016/06/02 13:53:07 << timewaster.
13:22 mircea_popescu o, already huh. well, an upgrade's always welcome
13:23 mircea_popescu !!rate punkman -2 miserable cocksucker.
13:23 deedbot Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/wMOyS/?raw=true
13:23 mircea_popescu speaking of that, hey phf how's the new vdiff coming along ?
↖ ↖
13:26 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes do you want comments here ? or would rather there ?
13:26 ben_vulpes i'd been drafting what turned into the charter from very nearly the very beginning; there's no arrangements or agreements that are not covered in the linked document.
↖
13:26 ben_vulpes there please
13:28 mircea_popescu aite.
13:37 * ben_vulpes back later, looking forward to mircea_popescu's comments
13:42 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes every time i try to comment it says "stale page".
13:42 mircea_popescu i take it the comments never got tested or anything ? anyways.
13:42 mod6 Ok, noted.
13:43 mircea_popescu in other news, ben_vulpes mod6 is there some discussion that was had in foundation board as to the wisdom/opportunity of commitment here ? are you basically trying to stretch capital or how exactly did the logic go ?
13:49 mod6 Yeah, had discussions around it -- The first sentence in paragraph three kinda covers most of it.
13:50 mod6 I'd note that we were a bit reluctant to do this to begin with -- hence the late entrance to the venture. I think we were hoping that others would step and run it, but alas, no one did.
13:50 mircea_popescu so the logic mostly went, "whole shit's on fire, gotta do thing x, thing x takes dough, the only available dough is in this piggy, break it" ?
13:50 mod6 Certainly not.
13:50 ben_vulpes well, i don't quite know what you mean by "stretch capital". republic gotta have an ISP; and it should be able to turn a profit and pay the foundation back. if it fails to do that, it'll be disappointing and i'll probably resign for mismanagement. initially mod6 and i were considering taking the entire venture on through the foundation when asciilifeform offered to match.
13:51 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes fix the comments then i'll explain what i mean by reference to it!
13:51 ben_vulpes yaok, i saw a comment earlier. no idea how it got in there.
13:51 mircea_popescu hm.
13:51 mircea_popescu maybe i'm doing something wrong ?
13:51 ben_vulpes actually i betcha i do know, i had to port the comments widgetry to this theme when i mpwpd myself.
13:52 mircea_popescu "Looks like you tried to comment off a stale page. Reload the article, count to three and try again."
13:52 ben_vulpes yeah, i remember that text from spelunking
13:53 mircea_popescu !--16 queries. 1.578 seconds. << holy hell.
13:53 ben_vulpes try now please
13:53 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes lmao T favicon too eh ?
13:53 ben_vulpes it's a rush job, friend
13:53 mircea_popescu there we go.
13:54 ben_vulpes aha ty
13:55 * mircea_popescu is game to continue discussion of isp there, so. we can talk re foundation here. so mod6 certainly not, but then consider point 4 in http://pizarroisp.net/?p=3&cpage=1#comment-3 ; still no ?
13:55 ben_vulpes this is for the full contract period, mircea_popescu
13:55 mircea_popescu but plox say it there!
13:55 mircea_popescu ill answer an' etc.
13:56 * ben_vulpes shall
13:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784586 << hey, they got till they last, for sure.
13:56 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 05:04 trinque: I'd say any judgment of how they're doing (at what, a day in?) is premature.
13:56 shinohai "We slay Incas" <<< gold
13:57 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784594 << no, not at all. we are however going to ask the difficult questions, so as to spare them future pain at the cost of present embarassment.
13:57 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 05:10 trinque: so leaving alf aside, when two folks dive on this boondoggle of a business venture to right it, we're going to suspect their methods and forget their long reputations?
13:57 mircea_popescu cuz we're of the tribe that believes that a good deal.
13:58 mircea_popescu but they're questions, and no more, barren and not pregnant. "and where did you put the salt" is not "you stole the salt, didn't you".
14:00 * trinque sees no fault in that
14:01 * ben_vulpes glad of the questions
14:01 mod6 Same,
14:01 mod6 s/,/./
14:02 * mircea_popescu digs up how the deedbot rss feed worked
14:04 mircea_popescu for the curious : !!subscribe http://pizarroisp.net/?feed=comments-rss2 should do it.\
14:05 mircea_popescu ( ben_vulpes mind that trilema permits narrower specificity, eg http://trilema.com/2018/experimental-results/feed/ actually feeds only comments ~to that article~.)
14:11 mod6 So by using the foundation's endowment the idea was here, "the foundation is doing something", as opposed to "mod6 doing something". That was the idea.
14:11 mod6 It's no secret that we need mircea_popescu's, hanbot, and S.MG's business.
14:12 mod6 I could step up and remove the foundation from the entire thing, and put in my own coin.
14:12 mircea_popescu so basically the idea was to use the foundation as a shield/ralying flag as may be needed.
14:12 mod6 However, #5 seems like a blocker.
14:12 * ben_vulpes caught interrupt from real live, bbl
14:13 mircea_popescu it's what it's for, after all. mod6 you have to appreciate the outside view, "this item existed for x years, never involved itself, now does. why now and not before ?"
14:13 mod6 I don't think 'sheild/ralying' flag. More of "is this thing useful". Much to your question that I tackled you about a few weeks back.
14:13 mircea_popescu but i think the above is satisfactory.
14:13 mod6 I'm starting to agree that the foundation is not useful.
14:13 mod6 And probably should be somehow put out to pasture.
14:13 mircea_popescu ah, so are you going to thereby find out ?
14:14 mod6 Well, that was the idea. Maybe not a great one.
14:14 mircea_popescu i can follow it.
14:14 phf there seemed to be some miscommunicaton, because the box that i received only contains pogos. in fact http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784667 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784678 http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784730 are at odds with each other
14:14 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 14:10 mircea_popescu: that aside : danielpbarron phf what ever became of those fgs ?
14:14 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 14:49 danielpbarron: mircea_popescu, the pogos? i sent them and phf has them
14:14 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 17:43 ben_vulpes: phf: please to send fg's to http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/kcjWc/?raw=true
14:16 mircea_popescu whoa.
14:16 phf i seem to recall that the original request was for FGs, so i was surprised to see pogos in the box, but they then the point was already moot. (box got here on friday, i picked it up saturday afternoon)
14:16 mircea_popescu danielpbarron what did you send him!
14:16 mircea_popescu phf how many ? 24 ?!
14:17 * mircea_popescu owns too many things, to the point people are getting confused which cask of amontillado to ship.
14:17 mircea_popescu for the record http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784603 doesn't actually square with http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-17#1784318 ; but if you say as ben_vulpes said that http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784794 i will believe, as it neither breaks my bones nor picks my pocket. then it'll get enshrined through the passage of time, and then if we later discover it was not factual we're going to have a fine mess on our hands. so
14:17 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 05:23 mod6: Things like, what the bills were, where they need to be sent, who would do what. This kind of thing.
14:17 a111 Logged on 2018-02-17 04:55 asciilifeform: it so happens that asciilifeform has purchased a 50% stake in bisp. and specifically with one condition: that mircea_popescu (named, concretely) will not be a back-seat driver there.
14:17 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 18:26 ben_vulpes: i'd been drafting what turned into the charter from very nearly the very beginning; there's no arrangements or agreements that are not covered in the linked document.
14:17 mircea_popescu last call on this matter : are the surprises done or is there more exoticism waiting to be sprung on innocents ?
14:18 phf mircea_popescu: yeap, 24
14:18 mircea_popescu phf alrighty, send them back an' send me the bill please.
14:18 phf i believe dpb is in between houses so there will be some time before he has a reliable return address, but we've already agreed to as much
14:19 mircea_popescu it does occur to me that indeed tmsr-isp would make a much better repository of "just in case" iron than danielpbarron who's trying to move. you wanna do anything with my large crate of pogos fellas ?
14:20 mircea_popescu phf yeah, actually, i should prolly take the rest of them from him, rather than stuff back in. they're long overdue. mind holding on to the grosse for a little ?
14:20 * mod6 reads
14:21 phf i can keep them until end of may
14:21 mircea_popescu sounds like plenty and i know from experience it won't be nearly enough. but ty.
14:21 mircea_popescu anyway, to get back to the land of designs for a second : the original idea for tmsr isp was that it'd also function as a holder of valuable (ie, "no longer produced") iron. and it'd carry it on its books, giving it a whole other kind of value.
14:22 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> last call on this matter : are the surprises done or is there more exoticism waiting to be sprung on innocents ? << The only agreement not stated in the charter was indeed, stated in here, that alf doesn't want to be involved with mircea_popescu as backseat driver.
14:22 mircea_popescu is there any interest in this line with current management ? get a storage unit somewhere in uruguay, pile up all the pogos and other non-replenishables ?
↖
14:22 mircea_popescu (the business case for this would be something like "but look at symbolics gear".)
14:22 mod6 ben_vulpes, BingoBoingo, asciilifeform : Keep me honest here, am I missing / forgetting anything else that needs to be unearthed?
14:26 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784792 << i got overwhelmed with vdiff becoming all things to all people, and since 4 year designs are no longer in vogue, i'm going to change the strategy and unblock specific people waiting for me
14:26 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 18:23 mircea_popescu: speaking of that, hey phf how's the new vdiff coming along ?
14:26 mircea_popescu phf sorry, change the strategy and what ?
14:27 phf so by coming wednesday i'll release a c differ, that conforms to current vpatch format, but will hopefully let hanbot finish the wp-mp genesis
14:28 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779901 << prolly what threw him.
↖
14:28 a111 Logged on 2018-02-02 21:26 mircea_popescu: 11 days should be enough for alf to bake the boxes i expect. danielpbarron i think he's better suited as they're right next to each other ; but pending discussion with bb can you fedex some pogos ?
14:29 phf by wednesday after that, i'll add keccak to it, and by yet next wednesday a c patcher that can eat a proper vpatch
14:30 phf mircea_popescu: well, i know that hanbot is waiting for a vdiffer that can actually produce a genesis from what she has, current one fails because of the whole -- regexing
14:30 mircea_popescu yep.
14:30 mircea_popescu so that you know, ben_vulpes can just press a v tree when he needs to stand one up. and so on.
14:30 mircea_popescu and since there can never be a better time than the present time : following up on asciilifeform's expert advice, i bought a crate of pogos um... about three years ago, jan/feb 2015, ie when the bitcoin was ~400. they're just as rare now as they were then, and they could have been bought today for the ~same i paid for them then. meaning i lost 95 bitcents to the bitcoin on this deal, for howevermany bitcoins i cared to sink i
14:30 mircea_popescu nto it. let the experience sink in, BECAUSE THERE IS NO OTHER PERSONALITY THAN HISTORY AND NO OTHER GUIDE THAN EXPERIENCE.
14:35 * mircea_popescu dug it up ye ancient manifest. there's 112 A3 and 10 A1s, of which iirc jurov got a dozen back then, so i assume there's 76 and 10 left ; and 24 a3s with phf. ie a coupla grand in today's fiats.
14:35 mircea_popescu phf sounds like a plan.
14:37 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784737 <- I've left a comment there
14:37 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 17:45 ben_vulpes: (not to derail, but i've moved the Pizarro provisional charter to http://pizarroisp.net/?p=3 , comments actively sought from eg diana_coman hanbot mircea_popescu lobbes )
14:38 mod6 thanks diana_coman
14:38 mod6 I'm not seeing it show up yet, maybe copy that text just to be sure. I think we're still working out the kinks on that.
14:38 mod6 Oh there it is.
14:38 mod6 Nevermind.
14:39 mod6 Solid question, we'll address that in the next draft, if there is even to be one.
14:45 * asciilifeform tuned in , ate logs, unfortunately hasn't just now the time to answer the quality flameage, is in the middle of a quite intricate job atm
14:58 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784632 << improbable, there's what, 100s of btc outstanding.
14:58 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 05:42 mod6: Furthermore, I may be the only investor left in S.NSA, and I would very much like to see it continue.
15:00 mod6 Fair enough. I still would like to see it continue.
15:00 mod6 :]
15:03 mircea_popescu in other news : as work on eucrypt is winding down -- the whole item is just about complete, needs serpent and we've decided to add an oaep-rsa wrapper (mostly as a pretext to do some ada-c interop testing), so roughly speaking by end of month it should actually be done -- we're moving on to shaping up the eulora client-server comms model. this will mostly be a design discussion, will take place in #eulora, prolly take up som
15:03 mircea_popescu e portion of the month of march. those with domain knowledge are very much invited to participate.
15:04 mircea_popescu also, building further the (summary) testing infrastructure currently provided is imo a legitimate way to patch upon the tree once complete ; and such work will prolly get sealed.
15:06 BingoBoingo <mod6> ben_vulpes, BingoBoingo, asciilifeform : Keep me honest here, am I missing / forgetting anything else that needs to be unearthed? << BingoBoingo sent a tarball of fiat side paperwork, datacenter and BingoBoingo's South America allowance paid through march. Emotional back and forth on BingoBoingo's part of the sort where "Uruguayos can all fuck themselves" to "This place isn't so bad, but all the Uruguayos can go fuck themselves".
15:06 BingoBoingo BingoBoingo's insistence on submitting to active management, particularly from ben_vulpes in light of his experience..
15:07 mircea_popescu lol so why not blog it, i enjoy telling that sorta thing.
15:08 BingoBoingo mircea_popescu: I'm getting dental work done tomorrow. I would like to blog the experience of turning 32 in Montevideo with Pictures, but I guess that can be a separate blog.
15:08 mircea_popescu you mean separate article ?
15:08 BingoBoingo Yeah
15:09 mircea_popescu sure, whatever you feel like. that's what the fucking blog is there for : whatever you feel like.
15:10 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784642 << only as a solitary adventure.
15:10 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 05:49 trinque: autodidacticism has been thoroughly trashed in the logs
15:10 BingoBoingo Fuck it, I will bake post now.
15:11 mod6 I've gotta do a few chores around here, bbs.
15:17 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784649 << quite admirable, fo sho.
15:17 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 05:57 trinque: probably plenty of ways to improve their process from here, yet the thing was dead in the water, republic declared dead without hosting, and some folks came together against that.
~ 55 minutes ~
16:12 danielpbarron http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-18#1784884 << i am confused. was i supposed to send FGs? i can do this, but they are mine to sell whereas the pogos are yours. it is unclear to me what they should sell for, except that many went for 400 USD on ebay
16:12 a111 Logged on 2018-02-18 19:28 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-02-02#1779901 << prolly what threw him.
~ 16 minutes ~
16:29 mircea_popescu danielpbarron yes, the idea back then was to send 24 fgs so as to supply 2each for the at the time dozen boxes i was trying to ship over. the latter part fell through, but as i thought the former part was still executed, and in phf's hands, i was trying to unwind it.
16:29 mircea_popescu as there's nothing there to unwind, there's no moar problem though.
~ 24 minutes ~
16:54 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: responded
~ 35 minutes ~
17:29 deedbot http://www.thedrinkingrecord.com/2018/02/18/turning-32-in-montevideo/ << Bingo Blog - Turning 32 In Montevideo
~ 15 minutes ~
17:45 ben_vulpes phf: http://logs.bvulpes.com/pizarro?d=2018-2-18#305493
17:48 ben_vulpes diana_coman: answered
18:02 * ben_vulpes off for several hours
~ 21 minutes ~
18:23 hanbot <mircea_popescu> "Looks like you tried to comment off a stale page. Reload the article, count to three and try again." << for future reference, mp-wp comment fix is in the edit here: http://thewhet.net/2017/10/a-compendium-of-possibly-helpful-stuffs-for-erecting-mircea-popescus-wordpress-with-nearly-free-speech-hosting/ , and will be a patch once that project can move again.
↖
18:30 hanbot phf> so by coming wednesday i'll release a c differ, that conforms to current vpatch format, but will hopefully let hanbot finish the wp-mp genesis << kickass, looking forward to it.
~ 3 hours 25 minutes ~
21:56 mircea_popescu !!up fromloper
21:56 deedbot fromloper voiced for 30 minutes.
21:56 fromloper Thank you.
21:56 mircea_popescu sure. what's up ?
21:57 fromloper I have several questions, mostly for Stan, but since you are here, is Mpex still functional?
21:57 mircea_popescu yes.
21:58 fromloper Interesting, although I feel the 50 btc fee might be a bit high nowadays for attracting new users.
21:59 mircea_popescu doesn't seem to hurt airbus.
22:03 fromloper I guess. My main question for your community here concerns OS security. Basically, is OpenVMS too good to be true?
22:06 fromloper It's written in a combination of three highly insecure languages (C, VAX macro, and BLISS), yet it averages very low bug counts.
22:10 fromloper Maybe no one here knows, but I figured it's worth a shot asking. Your community seems very knowledgeable and security conscious.
22:11 shinohai I've heard of it, but wasn't interested because closed source.
22:16 mircea_popescu !#s openvms
22:16 a111 8 results for "openvms", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=openvms
22:25 fromloper I joke that the OS is actually cursed since every CPU arch that it has been ported to has died relatively fast. Since it's being ported right now to x86_64 I hope I'm actually right.
~ 1 hours 31 minutes ~
23:56 deedbot http://www.contravex.com/2018/02/18/the-shape-of-dust-settling/ << Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski - The shape of dust settling.
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