Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-12-01 | 2016-12-03 → ↓
00:18 deedbot http://qntra.net/2016/12/bitcoin-network-difficulty-up-1-76-in-modest-increase/ << Qntra - Bitcoin Network Difficulty Up ~1.76% In Modest Increase
~ 39 minutes ~
00:58 pete_dushenski many congrats to asciilifeform and mircea_popescu on squeeking in under the nth xmas deadline for #fuckgoats. looking forward to getting my hands on one, whatever batch that may be. will probably order a few and give as gifts to sufficiently nerdy friends.
00:59 pete_dushenski http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-29#1574565 << this is right in my backyard. also alma mater. nfi what the 'ssdpdev' program or specialty is, however.
00:59 a111 Logged on 2016-11-29 16:13 deedbot: http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/E739A834E2CE6339A7D05EEDB78D8485695F6AA890225B692F2561197FFFFBE5 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1522...2357 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '142.244.231.80 (ssh-rsa key from 142.244.231.80 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (ssdpdev1.srv.ualberta.ca. CA AB)
01:00 pete_dushenski !~ticker --market all --currency rmb
01:00 jhvh1 pete_dushenski: BTCChina BTCRMB last: 5436.69, vol: 2209723.55590000 | Volume-weighted last average: 5436.69
01:04 pete_dushenski also props to trinque for the wot visualiser. nifty bidness, that.
01:04 * pete_dushenski goes to update blog with link to wot.deedbot
01:08 pete_dushenski speaking of blogs, this comment came in recently with a link to an reuters piece about how the tsx had just turfed canadian scammer king anthony di iorio as their 'chief digital officer', just as i told them to do exactly five months ago. so goddam golden. mega-satisfying even though i didn't make a penny off the prediction.
01:09 pete_dushenski of course they framed it as fat tony 'leaving to pursue his other blockchain projects' but his days are officially over.
01:10 pete_dushenski refresher for those who are less familiar with fat tony : he was the lead pre-mine scammer behind ethereum. he basically handpicked the autistic alien vitalik and shoved his greasy wop hand up the poor kid's butt and played him like kermit the frog.
01:14 pete_dushenski o hey james mattis as secretary of defense.
01:16 mats mattis is legendary among marines
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01:18 pete_dushenski good pick then eh
01:19 mats although there's that incident involving an ODA group asking for medevac, being refused by mattis, forcing usaf to fly in from k2 with an unrested crew that didn't have maps
01:21 mats http://www.thedailybeast.com/articles/2010/01/18/the-green-berets-who-saved-karzai.html
01:22 mats some say he wouldn't have refused, if it had been marines in the fight
01:23 mats fwiw, it reads like he made a good call, with the information he had at the time
01:31 mats anyway, i don't believe that combat vets (or vets of any kind) are suitable for public service in this manner
01:35 mats the zero defect approach to officer evaluation reports and utter lack of experience managing money in a large org are not good traits
01:37 mats they're encouraged to spend, not manage
01:39 pete_dushenski interesting. for the ignorant, what's the 'zero defect approach' ?
01:43 mats http://btcbase.org/log/2015-05-19#1137707
01:43 a111 Logged on 2015-05-19 02:03 mats: there is this thing known as "zero defect" officers
01:44 mats http://council.smallwarsjournal.com/showthread.php?t=9485
01:46 * pete_dushenski reads
01:47 mats >Top-down training directives and strategies combined with brief leader development experiences for junior officers leads to a perception that micromanagement is pervasive. They do not believe they are being afforded sufficient opportunity to learn from the results of their own decisions and actions.
01:49 pete_dushenski aha
01:51 pete_dushenski isn't such a faulty approach something mattis could do away with ? or too embedded ?
01:54 mats risk aversion runs deep in the officer corps, it's hard to say
02:00 pete_dushenski maybe a russian invasion, or at least a smattering of carpet bombing campaigns, will straighten out their obsession with risk aversion. but that might be a few decades off. unlikely trump can live that long, even if i wouldn't be surprised if he put an end to the two-term limit.
~ 41 minutes ~
02:41 pete_dushenski "That's the Unicode world, a world where impotence was legislated a litte further" << mircea_popescu, missing 'l'
02:42 pete_dushenski unless its majick mikroskopick invisabru unicode 'l' tucked in there in martian font.
02:42 pete_dushenski it's*
02:49 pete_dushenski http://archive.is/uGJTp << 'cybercriminals' going under the 'avalanche' banner are 'dismantled' by doj, europol, eurojust and... icann. moar dns plz!
~ 17 minutes ~
03:07 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-29#1574600 << i'll pass, busy as well :) glory awaits someone!
03:07 a111 Logged on 2016-11-29 16:50 trinque: maybe Framedragger's bag
03:07 Framedragger congratulations on FUCKGOATS, asciilifeform and mircea_popescu
03:17 ben_vulpes jurov: cloudfront errors at the ml again
03:19 Framedragger (meanwhile in SK, great image interpretations: http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/k1/IMG_20161202_151045296.jpg / http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/k1/IMG_20161202_152418040_HDR.jpg / http://fd.mkj.lt/stuff/k1/IMG_20161202_152455846.jpg)
03:19 Framedragger body image*
~ 2 hours 2 minutes ~
05:22 mircea_popescu mostly him.
05:36 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576123 << isn't he the guy that started the whole wedding bombing trend ?
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05:36 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 06:16 mats: mattis is legendary among marines
05:42 mircea_popescu incidentally, the rise and fall of the theranos lizzard club may be of interest to the alf minded.
05:43 mircea_popescu !!up Beausoleil
05:43 deedbot Beausoleil voiced for 30 minutes.
~ 17 minutes ~
06:00 shinohai Buenas dias mircea_popescu !
06:01 mircea_popescu hhhola!
06:13 jurov mod6: fxd, when their cloudtron IP addresses change, must me manually updated in their firewall
06:14 jurov *must be
06:16 jurov btw, if you saw news.ycombinator recently, a third of frontpage were about AWS. interesting noone noticed (or was muffled, dunno).
06:16 Framedragger (oh god, i'll come back from asia believing that lithuania should seriously suck china's cock as much as possible so that it could *maybe* get bought by them. like, that's the best option for them. idem poland, only that the latter are way ahead (and a tad bit more autonomous from bruxelles.usa) (e.g.: coaxing chinese to invest into gdansk port; .lt's port is just about done.))
06:20 Framedragger (there is that feeling (maybe just a feeling) that folx here (.ko) always have some spare cash. (i mean like jb financial group, etc.) whereas in yurop, everything's on the brink of bankruptcy, disaster's around the corner.)
06:22 mircea_popescu doh.
06:22 mircea_popescu they say traveling opens the mind of youth.
06:24 Framedragger after reflecting upon economic cycles and the crashes to come, ii have presently assumed a state of relative tranquillity...
06:25 shinohai How's Korea Framedragger had any mole de perro yet? xD
06:26 Framedragger it's pretty cool :) what's that tho? i am most uncultured. lots of octopus, fish, assorted seafood was had, tho :)
06:26 mircea_popescu dog.
06:26 Framedragger also potato pancakes. but we have those in .lt. .lt is basically just potatoes.
06:26 mircea_popescu eh don't be too harsh, you also have potato dumplings with a little cheese in them.
06:26 shinohai I had iguana while I was in central america, about as exotic as I got with the locals
06:26 mircea_popescu that's almost like not potato
06:27 Framedragger mircea_popescu: totally. i hear you. and lots of sour cream. like srsly lots. to ease the potatoes in
06:27 * mircea_popescu comes from dairy country, likes girls with big tits and eats a cup o' sour cream a day.
06:28 mircea_popescu (srsly, napolact, the transylvania milk and dairy factory, sells sour cream in these 600g buckets.)
06:28 Framedragger never had a thing for large asses and boobs. maybe 'cause i'm quite small...
06:28 Framedragger lol not bad
06:28 mircea_popescu oh im sorry. 900g.
06:29 Framedragger hmm i guess you can, like, spill that on girls, etc.; i can see that.
06:29 shinohai The work of a milkmaid is honorable work http://i.imgur.com/fZs0RHz.jpg
06:29 mircea_popescu i wonder if i wrote my sandwich down
06:31 Framedragger !#s closely watched trains
06:31 a111 0 results for "closely watched trains", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=closely%20watched%20trains
06:31 mircea_popescu apparently not. anyway, the mp sandwich includes a layer of sour cream.
06:32 Framedragger this randomly reminded me of this film ^ from czechoslovakia. mircea_popescu probably knows. there's a scene with the guy stamping the girl in the train station. it's beautiful. (but for srsly. 1960s .cz film, you know)
06:32 Framedragger hahaha cool.
06:32 mircea_popescu i dun think i saw it.
06:32 Framedragger totally recommend it, even if my film-recommendation-credit has run dry
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06:33 mircea_popescu lol. it's ok, films are hard to come by.
06:33 Framedragger great cinematography
06:33 Framedragger .cz new wave
06:33 mircea_popescu anyway, i thought .lt also did pigs.
06:34 Framedragger ohya. fat everywhere, lots of pig, yes indeed. there is that.
06:34 mircea_popescu very acceptabru cuisine.
06:34 Framedragger (i need to uh reconnect with my kin-nature or sth, forgot)
06:34 Framedragger hard agricultural work <-> fat
06:35 Framedragger of the same kind is fatty polish kvašnica soup. quite good.
06:35 Framedragger (dunno how it's spelt)
06:36 mircea_popescu eh, i'm more partial to drier, vegetable heavy, lovage ladden شوربا-style things.
06:37 * mircea_popescu can't stand azn soups for all the fucking oil they put in there.
06:38 Framedragger the oil is quite present... also did you just spell porridge in arabic script?
06:38 mircea_popescu it's an ancient persian dish, sour meat and vegetable broth.
06:38 Framedragger ah, sounds excellent.
06:38 * Framedragger will go to iran some day
06:39 mircea_popescu very well spread in the old world, it's çorba in turkish, ciorba in romanian, i would identify it as the core of cultural identity for non-western europe.
06:39 mircea_popescu much like castration is the cultural identity of western europe.
06:40 Framedragger interestingly i find the .ko boyz quite subdued, i mean in all kinds of senses incl libido, but that may very well be a very superficial impression
06:41 Framedragger (boyz = various youth)
06:41 mircea_popescu azns. the penii are mostly to pee with.
06:41 Framedragger i guess i should try to talk to girls here huh
06:41 Framedragger didn't really get the chance. except for in retrospect missed opportunities :/
06:42 mircea_popescu dude...
06:42 mircea_popescu drop all the stupid computer shit right now and go out and talk to all the girls you see.
06:42 mircea_popescu wtf is this dumb shit, they ain't got computers where you live ?
06:43 Framedragger "i'm coding". yeahyeah. i'm off to the DMZ/JSC tomorrow which is sth i wanted to go to. will have opportunity
06:43 Framedragger maybe even tonight. you're right.
06:43 mircea_popescu nevermind tomorrow.
06:43 mircea_popescu what possible fucking outcome can you obtain from "coding".
06:44 Framedragger gonna sound dumb, but not sure where i could go. i hate clubbing. i guess i should find nice places etc
06:44 mircea_popescu just walk.
06:44 mircea_popescu you don't have to ~go~ somewhere to meet people, especially not in ancient inhabited places like asia.
06:46 Framedragger that's, like, good advice. makes sense
06:47 mircea_popescu "and yet here i am."
06:48 Framedragger gun wrap up.
06:57 Framedragger (oh also, shot from a real gun for first time yesterday. pretty cool. never thought there'd be that much of a gun powder smell, and flash of light.)
07:07 * mircea_popescu idly wonders if the hama massacre and hafez' socialist roots have anything to do with the junior bashar's poor reception in the us and ru support. the father did create an unique network of alawites all through the 80s...
07:08 mircea_popescu Framedragger not quite as seen on tv huh.
07:09 Framedragger yeah. good to have a concrete reference in mind i guess.
~ 20 minutes ~
07:30 mircea_popescu incidentally, isn't it remarkable the ustardian social media isn't up in arms about all the sex discrimination going on in iraq ? why, pray tell, ONLY MALES "of fighting age" are being suspected ?
07:36 mircea_popescu anyway. the battle for mosul, originally slated to end about a month ago, and then upgraded to end about today, has been upgraded again to take "months" hence. i think i want a refund.
07:39 mircea_popescu (for the innocent : there was a 2015 "we'll take mosul in spring" thing, also. you never hear anything about it today BECAUSE the key of usg behaviour is exactly http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-17#1523269 : they make one a year. if this year's fails then "it never really happened" ; if it succeeds then "see, we always win, told you so!")
07:39 a111 Logged on 2016-08-17 17:02 mircea_popescu: Framedragger the reason there's a lot of credence in phf's perhaps harsh criticism is http://trilema.com/2014/how-to-make-money-on-the-internet-while-pretending-you-know-what-youre-talking-about-and-accumulating-a-legion-of-mindless-followers-for-fun-and-profit/
~ 16 minutes ~
07:56 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/829D7AF9CA36744B0FA7458BD2E8394CC37B685C25AF7AEC8D0DB44D507482A9 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1549...3469 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '89.203.206.158 (ssh-rsa key from 89.203.206.158 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (static-89-203-206-158.ktkadan.cz. CZ)
08:01 mircea_popescu !!up walter_
08:01 deedbot walter_ voiced for 30 minutes.
08:03 walter_ Thanks. Anybody watching the XVC drama?
08:04 mircea_popescu dun think so. what's xvc ?
08:04 walter_ another altcoin
08:04 mircea_popescu anything good ?
08:05 mircea_popescu !#s vcash
08:05 a111 0 results for "vcash", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=vcash
08:05 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7D71650BD79BBD83129590245BD93C5B90619E785ED717D688FCFB9FAFD50818 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1531...2837 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '94.125.180.127 (ssh-rsa key from 94.125.180.127 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (mail.vitorla.com. HU)
08:05 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/420578B02866959FA7F8E8C36B827E824A0B9CF6EFDFA6FD1E85669A01980BB8 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 2552...9923 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '46.17.239.6 (ssh-rsa key from 46.17.239.6 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (46.17.239.6.liquidtelecom.net. GB)
08:05 walter_ yes, seems not discussed here, found nothing on qntra as well
08:07 walter_ cannot tell if "good", but what got me interested is it was 1. written from scratch, 2. advertised "innovation" (fast transactions, hybrid PoW/PoS), 3. main dev sounds arrogant but competent
08:07 mircea_popescu lmao, what's with this anon derps taking pseudonyms from fiction ? john connor, really ?
08:08 walter_ last week was full of entertaining events for this coin
08:09 walter_ is it appropriate to discuss alts here?
08:09 mircea_popescu it's appropriate to discuss whatever's interesting.
08:10 mircea_popescu anywya, so obscure altcoin dropped 50% or something and there's some drama.
08:10 shinohai Sounds like the same thing that happens with almost *every altcoin
~ 51 minutes ~
09:02 mircea_popescu !!deed http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/KH6NE/?raw=true
09:02 mircea_popescu !!deed http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/rsbcG/?raw=true
09:03 deedbot accepted: 1
09:03 deedbot accepted: 1
~ 21 minutes ~
09:25 asciilifeform http://www.bbc.com/news/technology-38181158 << in other lulz
09:26 mircea_popescu "fake news" ie "not officially sanctioned lies"
09:26 asciilifeform 'Sally Lehrman, founder of the Trust Project - an organisation set up to re-establish trust in mainstream media - told the BBC: "We don't know enough yet to know how it affected the election but we do know that fake news travels rapidly and it can change the conversation, not just by misinforming people but by focusing attention on something that may not be the issue. "It is a real danger to democracy."'
09:26 asciilifeform noshit
09:27 mircea_popescu "thios website is considered a questionable source" being the giveaway. i suppose the idea is thetimes.whitehouse.gov is unquestionable ?
09:27 mircea_popescu "i and other open source contributors" sez mr. sieradski. open source is starting to be quite shameful an association by now.
09:28 asciilifeform oh noez, not the tritler wh!111 cnn, nyt !!
09:31 asciilifeform latest word is that a list of sov^H^H^Hru 'stooges' is in the works, and who knows, isp filter
09:31 asciilifeform will be a lul to watch.
09:31 mircea_popescu oya.
09:31 mircea_popescu recall the 90s when all the bitching was on about china's firewall ?
09:31 asciilifeform aha!
09:32 mircea_popescu apparently the fact that it never worked worth a shit doesn't deter anyone. bureaucrats are not just stupid - but committed to stay that way.
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09:32 asciilifeform hey - it's doubling down, or wagner+cyanide
09:33 asciilifeform afaik there is not a third
09:33 mircea_popescu at least wagner is good music.
09:33 mircea_popescu "doubling down" has a meaning, it's not "everything idiots do when not doing wagner+cyanide"
09:33 mircea_popescu just like investment has a meaning, it's not "anything idiots spend money on"
09:34 asciilifeform and 'programming ain't what php rats do' etc
09:35 asciilifeform everything ~had~, once, a meaning.
09:49 * mircea_popescu looks up meaning in gns, is unaffected.
09:56 mircea_popescu trinque here's a strategic point for your consideration : eulora will move to a rsa auth model sometime next year. this means the client generates itself a key, and talks to the server. i don't want to create a special deedbot for eulora, and so, how do we best interoperate them so that i have rate and deeds in-game ? (ideally the wot visualisations and other such beauty also)
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09:56 thestringpuller Not that it does anything but no error when submitting blank form >> http://i.imgur.com/3mXz6CR.png
09:57 asciilifeform thestringpuller: that's a default eggog
09:58 thestringpuller asciilifeform: if you submit non-GPG it give you pretty error. again not that it matters...just a thing.
09:59 mircea_popescu not a very flattering eggog at that.
10:02 asciilifeform will fix, brb, tea.
~ 28 minutes ~
10:31 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/7D71650BD79BBD83129590245BD93C5B90619E785ED717D688FCFB9FAFD50818 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1425...1713 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '94.125.180.127 (ssh-rsa key from 94.125.180.127 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (mail.vitorla.com. HU)
10:31 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/420578B02866959FA7F8E8C36B827E824A0B9CF6EFDFA6FD1E85669A01980BB8 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1430...1099 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '46.17.239.6 (ssh-rsa key from 46.17.239.6 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (46.17.239.6.liquidtelecom.net. GB)
10:37 mod6 <+jurov> mod6: fxd, when their cloudtron IP addresses change, must me manually updated in their firewall << ah, thanks jurov!
10:37 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> dog. << lmao
10:41 BingoBoingo Butts
10:44 asciilifeform thestringpuller, mircea_popescu , et al: should be fixed nao.
10:44 asciilifeform abuse at will
10:47 asciilifeform ty for the eagle eye, thestringpuller .
10:48 asciilifeform and if anyone else notices an oddity of this kind, please ping asciilifeform .
10:49 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576270 << imho this thread is worth expanding -- i remain unconvinced that chinese great firewall 'never worked'. it -- works, on the target audience.
10:49 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 14:32 mircea_popescu: apparently the fact that it never worked worth a shit doesn't deter anyone. bureaucrats are not just stupid - but committed to stay that way.
10:49 asciilifeform that is to say, 'casual user' cattle browsing 'the news' on their pnojes while waiting for the train.
10:51 mircea_popescu everything works "on the target audience", especially if that's defined so as to make it seem to work. in which vein see also http://trilema.com/2016/consumerism-is-not-the-answer-though-it-will-put-you-to-sleep-or-american-history-x/#selection-91.0-111.1
10:52 asciilifeform well judge for yourself -- usg 'demoocracy'-spreading via twatter/arsebook/etc was successfully zapped. and no, not merely via 'great wall', but it was 'part of the balanced diet' of how.
10:53 mircea_popescu i don't perceive this.
10:53 mircea_popescu it spread exactly as much as it spread in poland.
10:53 asciilifeform consider the pathetic failure of the hk 'colour revolution'.
10:54 mircea_popescu stupid naturally herds together, and to very much the same degree. there isn't anything you can do about it, and ftr the shepherd FOLLOWS the herd, doesn't lead it. he may imagine he leads it, if it makes him feel better about living in the middle of nowhere among a pile of animal dung, but whatevers.
10:54 mircea_popescu asciilifeform consider you just said pnoje above. this settles the point.
10:55 mircea_popescu not like they're sitting around wearing kimonos and laughing at the idiocy of dicking around with a small plastic lavalamp.
10:55 asciilifeform i dun have a good eye inside cn. but from outside it would appear that it still belongs to the chinese, and is resistant to twitterocratization
10:56 mircea_popescu "the chinese" you use doesn't existg.
10:56 asciilifeform quite possibly.
10:56 mircea_popescu does the us "belong to americans" ?
10:56 asciilifeform it belongs to the earthworms.
10:56 mircea_popescu who, venezuelans ?
10:57 mircea_popescu syrian "color revolution" also fails. does syria belong to "the syrians" ?
10:57 asciilifeform 'the americans' are no moar a civilization, to whom a continent can belong, than 'the romans' are today.
10:57 mircea_popescu who are these syrians / chinese / whatevers things belong to.
10:57 asciilifeform ditto 'the syrians'
10:58 mircea_popescu and the chinese can't afford to get married because bitch wants place to spawn and place to spawn within icbm distance of anything worth one's time cost 1mn+ ie five lifetimes.
10:58 mircea_popescu worse situation than sf. what exactly wasn't exported ?
10:58 mircea_popescu communist china worked like communist romania, fwiw.
10:58 asciilifeform if this is so (and i'll take mircea_popescu's intel for its word) they are on the american train to nowhere, then.
10:58 mircea_popescu stupid is on stupid train to stupid.
10:58 mircea_popescu this ain't about to change.
10:59 asciilifeform speaking of 'great walls', http://insights.ubuntu.com/2016/12/01/taking-a-stand-against-unstable-risky-unofficial-ubuntu-images/
10:59 mircea_popescu heh.
11:01 asciilifeform and in yet-other lulz, http://qntra.net/2016/12/no-such-labs-unveils-fuckgoats/#comment-80421
11:02 mircea_popescu did you see the guy who had a "for free just as good version" consisting of buying a software radio thing (for slightly more than what FUCKGOATS costs) and you know, listening to man made "entropy"
11:03 asciilifeform i have that radio
11:03 mircea_popescu if any kind of divinity existed this sort of truth-symmetrical idiocy would provoke thunderstorms.
11:03 asciilifeform it was ultra-popular at one time, and remains useful 'poor man's sigint' tool
11:04 asciilifeform world's cheapest 40MHz-2GHz receiver (with terrible snr, but what can you do)
11:07 mircea_popescu aha.
11:07 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/829D7AF9CA36744B0FA7458BD2E8394CC37B685C25AF7AEC8D0DB44D507482A9 << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1535...4373 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '89.203.206.158 (ssh-rsa key from 89.203.206.158 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (static-89-203-206-158.ktkadan.cz. CZ)
11:07 mircea_popescu i suppose getting two tuned to the same frequency and then debiasing them together may result in something (precisely because taking advantage of n in that horrible snr). otherwise with a single item... tough.
11:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: problem is not that you cannot turn a radio-in-faraday-cage into a baroque version of FUCKGOATS
11:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: problem is that the thing hangs on a megatonne of open Sores shitware that is >trb-sized
11:09 asciilifeform that nobody has read, or ever will read,
11:09 asciilifeform nor is it quite known wtf is inside the chip
11:09 asciilifeform a quite separate problem, and anyone who ACTUALLY owns the rtlsdr unit knows of it, is the usb
11:09 asciilifeform thing interferes with itself quite painfully
11:11 mircea_popescu aha. hence my comment re thunderstorms and truth-symmetrical.
11:16 asciilifeform though i may have explained this before, long ago in the l0gz, it is NOT difficult to make a quite acceptable trng
11:17 asciilifeform the difficulty comes when you wish to make one that remains cryptologically acceptable when it becomes a mass-produced and published product.
11:18 asciilifeform to take example, if mircea_popescu generates keys using cuntmusculature noise, using dildonic myographs, this is bulletproof UNTIL enemy finds out and sends specially-trained pulsator gurls to long-game infiltrate harem etc.
11:18 mircea_popescu aha.
11:19 mircea_popescu come to think about it - maybe i should do exactly that.
11:19 mircea_popescu get the enemy incentives correctly alligned.
11:20 * asciilifeform pictures a dildonic analogue end for FUCKGOATS
11:21 asciilifeform i still wonder how come nobody, afaik, ever even once sold rng where the debiaser and analogue halves came apart.
11:21 asciilifeform it is pretty obvious cut imho.
11:24 mircea_popescu before the republic nobody seriously contemplated, let alone put resources towards, most sane ends and goals.
11:24 thestringpuller in shitfone news: http://arstechnica.com/security/2016/11/1-million-android-accounts-compromised-by-android-malware-called-gooligan/
11:24 mircea_popescu and this includes "cyberpunks" and whatever else - they still thought in terms of "the country" and bartlesian "in the end '''real''' life aka socialism prevails"
11:25 asciilifeform thestringpuller: iirc this was in the l0gz a few days ago
11:25 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: the 'suckless' folx , afaik, came the closest
11:25 mircea_popescu possibru
~ 16 minutes ~
11:41 deedbot http://trilema.com/2016/minigame-smg-november-2016-statement/ << Trilema - MiniGame (S.MG), November 2016 Statement
11:47 asciilifeform https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=phyqYbmiWUo << in other chtonian horrors
11:48 asciilifeform ^ dope experts! which dope was responsible ?
~ 28 minutes ~
12:16 mircea_popescu jenkem
12:17 mircea_popescu wtf is with the whiny beseeching voice omfg.
12:17 asciilifeform ikr?
12:17 asciilifeform though it may be for theatrical effect, considering subj
12:24 mircea_popescu "A report from BuzzFeed found that, in the final three months of the US presidential campaign, the top-performing fake election news stories on Facebook generated more engagement than the top stories from major news outlets such as the New York Times, Washington Post, Huffington Post, NBC News and others." <<->> http://trilema.com/2016/the-war-with-the-press/
12:24 mircea_popescu somehow the OBVIOUS inference isn't drawn from this.
12:25 mircea_popescu the very evident "new york times, washington / huffington post etc do not produce strings worth more per megabyte than any other markov process" is elided in favour of "we shall label this failure of ours in terms of an external phenomenon and posture really convincingly about it". really, is it "being investigated" ? who the fuck is the agent in that agentless phrase and who the fuck's gonna supply the army.
12:25 asciilifeform what obvious, wreckerz!11111 listening to voice of ame^H^H^Hrt on illicitly modified radios in kitchens
12:27 mircea_popescu Sally Lehrman, founder of the Trust Project - an organisation set up to re-establish trust in mainstream media - told the BBC: "We don't know enough yet to know how it affected the election but we do know that fake news travels rapidly and it can change the conversation, not just by misinforming people but by focusing attention on something that may not be the issue. It is a real danger to democracy."
12:27 mircea_popescu so fucking endearing i swear.
12:27 asciilifeform was in today's log..
12:28 mircea_popescu o look, they "hosted a hackathon"
12:28 phf "misinforming people"
12:28 mircea_popescu can i just buy a hackathon keychain already ?
12:28 * asciilifeform to this very day has nfi what precisely is a 'hackathon'
12:28 mircea_popescu they're looking to farm trust. ANYTHING but the fucking obvious - stop supporting socialism already!
12:28 asciilifeform for some reason i always picture it as one of those basque wood-chopping competitions
12:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform i imagine what they mean by hackathon is one of those pbs donation drives. except instead of girls at phones now they have boys at keyboards.
12:30 mircea_popescu as per "boys worth bent bottlecap per head ; girls slightly more" economic imperative.
12:32 phf hackathon is a period of time for exclusively remote teams to get together and work on some problems that benefit from face to face, or more generally a period of uninterrupted work done by an asynchronous team. that's the original and the only meaning in the spirit of "consult the dictionary"
12:32 mircea_popescu no, that's a gathering.
12:32 mircea_popescu the 0day scene did these in the 80s
12:33 mircea_popescu i'd say the release groups being the first and to date the best example of async teams solving problems that benefit from face to face.
12:35 phf true, i was a small child then, but my first exposure to gatherings were through demoscene
12:35 phf (in the 90s)
12:35 mircea_popescu and since we're on it, i'd say the scene was the early republic, not derpy "cyberpunks/cypherpuns/whatever"
12:36 * asciilifeform watched the 'demos', but had nfi where they came from and how they were made.
12:36 asciilifeform quite a few marvels of asm
12:36 asciilifeform and of mathematical wizardry.
12:37 mircea_popescu europe, mostly.
12:37 mircea_popescu back when /me still had a lot of faith in humanity, /me still didn't give a rat's ass about the us.
12:40 asciilifeform iirc 'amiga' was still king in '80s europe
12:40 asciilifeform (west europe)
12:40 mircea_popescu nah, z80, usually as a commodore
12:41 asciilifeform commodore (with the exception of the weirdo dual-cpu variant of the '128', and an expander cartridge for 64 ) -- never sold a z80
12:41 phf i heard about amiga prods, but at least in moscows i didn't know anyone who had it
12:41 asciilifeform afaik ~nobody had an amiga in sovblok
12:42 phf i mean all the tools were ports from amiga. "nah, you don't use photoshop, here's this thing that we ported from amiga"
12:42 asciilifeform deluxepaint!11111
12:42 mircea_popescu ah right you are, the 64 was the mos
12:42 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: 6510 (6502 variant with 6 extra programmable pins)
12:43 asciilifeform nothing was wasted, one of the pins controlled ultra-cheap tape deck i/o, the rest - banked addr space
12:43 phf asciilifeform: yep, grafx2 in its DOS incarnation
12:43 asciilifeform (which is how you could USE all 64k , you could switch off the rom on the c64)
12:44 mircea_popescu aha.
12:44 asciilifeform phf: actually i had ~standard~ deluxepaint for msdos
12:44 asciilifeform it was ported.
12:45 phf i might've seen that, but i don't think i saw it until after i moved to u.s.
12:46 mircea_popescu "Keep in mind we do all this, because we can and because we like the thrilling excitement of winning over the other competing groups. We absolutely don't do all these releases, to please the general user that rather want to spend their cash on updating to the latest hardware, and see's the scene releases as a source to play all these games for free." << all the way down to despising the consumer / i just want to jwz.
12:47 asciilifeform at one point virii artists etc. also worked like this
12:47 mircea_popescu at one point everything worth the mention worked like this ; it being the only way things can work.
12:47 mircea_popescu the common man is here to be cut up and the meat fried, not running fucking "democracies" and making "choices" and whatnot.
12:49 asciilifeform imho the interesting question is why it always seems to turn from one into the other
12:49 mircea_popescu cuz kids want to get in.
12:49 asciilifeform (from 'demo scene' to 'spamola scene')
12:49 phf i remember taking linear algebra course in u.s. college, sort of mildly excited "finally learn this shit proper!" just to realize that my level of knowledge by then was grad research level. stopped showing up half way through, just taking tests..
12:53 phf but i was going to say, amusingly enough the whole "cyberpunk/cypherpunk/whatever" thing came from san francisco, and that's what all the jwzs grew up with. "mondo" which later became "boing boing" (and had a blog with same name in the early 2000s) http://theendofbeing.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/defd4d784f2e7c1978d81b99904c7869_large.jpg http://sangbleumagazine.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2014/05/Mondo-1.jpg
12:54 asciilifeform lel deadtree digerati mags
12:54 phf was sort of notorious for publishing "cyber speculative" nonsense in the style of whatshisname, rock singer
12:54 mircea_popescu myeah. essentially california didn't start sucking now, or last year, or last decade. intellectually speaking it was always nothing. it sucked in 1990 like it sucked in 1960 and 1930.
12:54 asciilifeform funnily enough asciilifeform never touched one, except for a very sad mid-2000s post-degringolade issue of '2600'
12:54 asciilifeform gurl had it
12:55 phf billy idol
12:55 phf "floppy drives are so HOT this year"
12:57 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: california may have sucked , but apparently evil martians put shockley and fairchild there as a joke upon us earthlings , to see 'what if idiot farmer wins lottery'
12:57 asciilifeform and so we have it.
12:57 mircea_popescu and it ran off to china.
12:57 mircea_popescu suprise surprise, lottery windfall finds its way out
12:58 mircea_popescu and for the record, this has been ongoing. in 1916 it was EXACTLY the same nonsense "oh, california is coming in a big way, let's move the theatrical company over".
12:58 mircea_popescu place's been coming in a big way since the 1859 gold find put it on the map, and throughout this century and a half it never ammounted to more than high rents and jam tomorrow.
12:59 asciilifeform so now the high rents are in pekin.
12:59 asciilifeform (as per earlier thread)
12:59 asciilifeform possibly 'california' is doomed to exist somewhere, even if it has legs and occasionally moves..?
13:00 mircea_popescu about 2k for a 900sqft furnished in downtown shanghai
13:00 asciilifeform ~= here
13:01 asciilifeform (with possible difference that, last i heard, shanghai flat doesn't always come with breathable air)
13:01 mircea_popescu neither does washington
13:01 asciilifeform mircea_popescu is misinformed, we get air here, but now on other hand, water...
13:01 mircea_popescu ah!
13:02 asciilifeform post-industial hellholes like (most of) usa have great air.
13:02 asciilifeform *industrial
13:11 mircea_popescu oomfg artstudio!
13:11 ben_vulpes but the sunsets are so boring now
13:11 mircea_popescu jesus.
13:11 * mircea_popescu just ran emulated artstudio
13:11 * asciilifeform occasionally STILL runs emulated 'deluxepaint'
13:12 asciilifeform it beats the shit out of 'gimp' et al in some respects
13:12 * phf uses grafx2 port as main and only graphics editor
13:14 mircea_popescu i can't say i ever used either that much to tell, but i did fuck around with art studio a lot as a 6 yo
~ 17 minutes ~
13:32 mircea_popescu phf incidentally, to round the thing, let's compare the 90s compo with the 2010s hackathon. o, that's right, these lame kids come from schools with no grades! the concept of there being a winner, of choice and hierarchy is all but lost.
13:32 mircea_popescu i see! heh.
13:32 mircea_popescu the focus moves from achievement to "we were physically together tapping keys for a time" i nthe exact same sense iranian women hang out together in the kitchen. "participative experience".
13:33 mircea_popescu the only possible end result of which is being fucked.
13:37 phf "i have this idea for a project, maybe i'll complete it by the end, or maybe i won't even start, so what are you working on?"
13:38 mircea_popescu "i got a bun in the oven, or maybe i'm just late, does ivan still drink ?"
13:38 phf hehe
13:39 mats http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576153 yup.
13:39 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 10:36 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576123 << isn't he the guy that started the whole wedding bombing trend ?
13:39 mats at least half a dozen by my count
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13:45 phf i met this small family of germans on a vacation growing up, and they were very visceral, roughing and tumbling with each other, and when i joined in their play, it was tough, they'd punch hard and try and sink you in the pool, but they acted same way with each other and just generally enjoyed what was happening. in fact i'm pretty sure they took it easy on me. i remembering thinking that they were like wolf cubs (they were from Dresden
13:45 phf so Berlin boys at the same hotel would rag on them, but from remote, because thems berlins boys were much more into talking)
13:47 phf people i knew back home were much more into verbal sparring, but following the same principles, you enter into dialog take a lot of abuse hope to come out on top, but at the end everyone's friends
13:48 asciilifeform i thought that all children played like this...
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13:48 phf when i came to u.s. my biggest surprise was that locals are into neither. you try and rough them up they think you some kind of crazy person, you try and get them into a debate they get all scared and confused.
13:49 phf asciilifeform: well, not unless both forms of behavior are "developmental issues"
13:49 trinque US is not a homogenous ball of gray goo
13:49 trinque sounds perfectly southern to me
13:50 phf trinque: yes yes that's why i prefer going sporting with rednecks and southerners, they don't cry about things
13:50 asciilifeform aha, in the 'black schools' there is neverending fight, like in a prison, and even bouncers to pry apart especially eager folk. and everyone with 'room temperature iq' however you measure it, also
↖
13:50 * trinque prefers rednecks as well
13:51 * asciilifeform mostly prefers distance, garden, solitude.
13:51 trinque Tacoma Washington suddenly sprung to mind
13:52 phf or olympia
13:53 trinque in the mountains up there'd be great for hermitage
13:53 asciilifeform on dirigible - yet moar. and on mars - more still.
14:01 * mats has a great travel poster of olympus mons
14:01 mats https://www.flickr.com/photos/spacex/17504334828
14:02 mats spacex got the idea from this set: http://www.jpl.nasa.gov/visions-of-the-future
14:03 asciilifeform 'spacex' is every bit as usg as nasa, but is part of the 2000s 'lean usg', if you will, concept; sorta like thiel's palantir is 'lean nsa'
14:03 mats i'd have asked that canadian fella to print all the spacex and nasa sets on canvas but he had to go and be retarded, so...
14:03 asciilifeform they are in the gorbachev 'kooperativ' phase
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14:03 asciilifeform where 'we will do same retarded Empire thing but CHEAPER, EFFICIENT' because 'private'
14:05 trinque mats: that series of posters was pretty damn good
14:07 mats i have half a dozen of them hanging and another ten or eleven in a crate
14:08 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-01#1561465 << also re spacex
14:08 a111 Logged on 2016-11-01 21:29 asciilifeform: trinque: consider: a 'saturn' and the maersk cargo fleet cost similarly. but they are unlike: 'saturn' is a cult/religious object (in the sense where nobody seriously attempts to calculate its roi) , rather more like the great pyramids.
14:13 mats this will sound naive, but humans in outer space represents an ideal of social cooperation and unity of purpose - against the environment trying to kill us - that i feel we've long since lost
↖
14:14 phf apropos https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LSHtoild-Q4
14:15 mats i mean specifically the folks ~in space~ rather than those on earth, aspiring to be there. no longer taking free air, water, food for granted, cooperating to survive in vacuum or organizing as a society to terraform $planet
14:16 phf according neil stephenson in such a situation only womens will survive
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14:19 mats in what novel
14:19 phf seveneves
14:20 phf also http://btcbase.org/log/2016-03-29#1441666
14:20 a111 Logged on 2016-03-29 17:58 asciilifeform: phf: seveneves was a misery
14:21 ben_vulpes mats: also entirely unprecedented
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14:21 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576279 << I'm certainly open to discussing this. I'll give it some thought and then raise the thread.
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14:21 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 14:56 mircea_popescu: trinque here's a strategic point for your consideration : eulora will move to a rsa auth model sometime next year. this means the client generates itself a key, and talks to the server. i don't want to create a special deedbot for eulora, and so, how do we best interoperate them so that i have rate and deeds in-game ? (ideally the wot visualisations and other such beauty also)
14:23 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2016-11-28#1574049 << worth bringing this in too, in considering WoT as more widely-used infrastructure
14:23 a111 Logged on 2016-11-28 18:37 asciilifeform: wot rating is the one scenario that most screamingly calls for attributable proclamation.
14:24 trinque I lean towards flipping the model to "decrypt and sign this command + OTP" vs "decrypt and send in the clear this OTP"
↖
14:24 trinque especially as relates to the payments system
14:25 trinque in regards to WoT, it allows me to at any time rebuild the graph with certainty
14:26 mats ben_vulpes: certainly.
14:28 mats i grew up violently scolded whenever i'd leave meat on bones, grains of rice behind on the plate, and i've carried this discipline through to adulthood
14:29 trinque how does scarcity evaluate to cooperation and unity in your mind?
14:29 mats simultaneously growing up in america among the wastage and vast consumption culture, the whole thing is ugly to its core
14:30 * trinque would not hate life as a space pirate
14:30 mats in vaccuum - every grain is consumed, every ml of urine recovered
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14:36 trinque http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/Lm39N?raw=true << attributable and ordered rating
14:37 phf what's the 441599?
14:37 trinque block height
14:37 phf ah
14:38 trinque could just as well have been "1"
14:38 trinque but I like the stardate being present
14:39 trinque if ratings were this kind of material I could chatter them to anyone interested as they are received, and conceivably "only chatter me things about the L2 of <key>"
↖
14:40 trinque under the present scheme I could do the same, but have to trust the wire to be honest, or find a better wire, which proceeds towards dragging gossipd in as a dependency
14:41 danielpbarron this is counter the the gossipd model of "i heard so-and-so said whatever"
14:41 trinque I understood it to be able to do both attributable and non-attributable statements
14:42 trinque but at any rate, making the WoT something that can be rebuilt from public information when I am dead is a good thing
↖
14:43 danielpbarron so then dump your copy of it and sign it periodically
14:44 trinque that is in no way equivalent
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14:47 trinque in one case, both parties can verify a rating using the rating material itself.
14:48 trinque in the other, we must trust my server is perfect, our logs are perfect, and so on
14:48 danielpbarron i don't see the benefit in signing the rating string; if it gets mitm'd it won't match on the bot's end and the user will clearly see something is amiss
14:49 asciilifeform ratings are the one clearest case for 'must stand alone'
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14:49 danielpbarron there is no "verifying a rating" beyond asking the rater yourself
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14:49 asciilifeform as in, you should be able to verify it solely by possessing the rating + the pubkey of the rater.
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14:49 trinque danielpbarron: how do you justify signing anything by this logic ?
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14:49 asciilifeform ^
14:49 trinque verifying his signature *is asking him*
14:50 danielpbarron trinque, so that two parties can know they have the same text
14:50 asciilifeform i dun see the 'win' from encouraging people to byzantiate and twofaced lie and give different answer to X and to Y regarding how they rate Z.
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14:50 danielpbarron no, verifying the sig is asking who he once was
14:50 asciilifeform ergo -- sign the fucking rating.
14:52 danielpbarron i thought this was already done in the log : suppose i give +5 one day and -10 the next? without the latter it would appear i trust the guy -- WITH SIGNATURE!!!
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14:52 asciilifeform danielpbarron: guess what, if you had flown to alpha centauri before mtgox died... etc
14:53 asciilifeform there is not a cure for this, other than to stay 'in the light cone'
14:53 trinque danielpbarron: I recently signed my IPs for various servers
14:53 trinque if I go change them, yes, signed material does not update
14:53 trinque which does not invalidate that at the time of signature they were precisely the statement I made
14:54 trinque your observation is misapplied; the signature does not say "for all time"
14:54 asciilifeform a signature simply states that 'at time t, the following...'
14:54 trinque it says "this was precisely the state of this text at time"
14:54 trinque aha
14:54 asciilifeform or, more rigorously, 'at time >= t'
14:54 asciilifeform because the only reasonably rigid 'nail' to nail it down with is blockhash
14:55 trinque and lets not soften the definitions of things because "o no too hard"
14:55 danielpbarron that's what sigs are for, one-off "maje sure you get this text unmolested" ; ~not~ here is a public record of official signed things
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14:55 trinque you'll have to define your terms if you want to proceed
14:55 trinque wtf does "official signed things" mean here
14:55 danielpbarron like your WoT ratings
14:56 trinque how do I currently know by looking at my database that no item in it was altered by somebody spraying bits into my server via network card -> dma
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14:56 trinque or for that matter verify anything I got from assbot or prior
14:57 danielpbarron compare it with a signed backup you made?
14:57 danielpbarron after somebody complains that it's showing the wrong thing
14:59 asciilifeform danielpbarron's argument, if i understand it, is that folx are doomed to have to ask, e.g., mircea_popescu directly, for mircea_popescu's ratings, because otherwise enemy can win against, e.g., danielpbarron, by locking him inside a bottle where mircea_popescu's ancient and long-revoked rating of magicaltux still stands because signed ??
15:00 trinque this bottle is also somehow distinct from the bottle where deedbot is currently lying to him
15:00 danielpbarron yes that's part of it
15:00 asciilifeform trinque: that is the weak point, precisely
15:00 asciilifeform he is already in this bottle
15:01 asciilifeform and the more unsigned payload one relies upon, the more so you live in the bottle.
15:01 asciilifeform when mircea_popescu wrote the piece where 'sex -- with people, business -- with keys' - what does danielpbarron suppose he meant ?
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15:02 danielpbarron the ratings are a guide. the WoT is people. do you think this whole chat has been mitm'd for the last howevermany years and nobody noticed?
15:02 asciilifeform the wot is made of what? not of ratings ?
15:03 trinque lets walk it the other direction
15:03 danielpbarron the rating guides you to the person who you may they request signed materian
15:03 trinque danielpbarron: what if I just allow whoever currently is set as "nick" to rate as "nick"
15:03 trinque if not why not
15:03 phf what i got from the argument last time is that wot ratings don't need that sort of meticulous bureaucratic audit trail. my personal inclination is to of course specify and sign and process (plus it would be cool to have own fork of wot maintained by own means), but i'm not sure i disagree with the first point
15:04 trinque "don't need" is the sort of squishy lazy compromise that'd better have a reason
15:04 trinque or else get off ass and do better
15:04 mats FUCKGOATS is impressive, thanks asciilifeform
15:04 trinque this fucking "don't need" argument is why people md5, https, whatever
15:04 * mats prepares order
15:05 trinque I am still waiting to hear why I shouldn't just rely on freenode's auth system to process ratings
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15:05 danielpbarron trinque, not; at least in current model only the bot is the iffy part. my decryption of the string proves tothe bot that i am me
15:05 trinque after all good enough
15:05 trinque I am aware of how the bot works; answer my actual question
15:06 phf trinque: we trust you, it's in the wot. and if you break the wot we'll rate you negatively using the wot :)
15:06 trinque so we've found the "sweet spot" where we have removed enough untrustworthy components and might as well settle down and have kids / get fat here?
15:06 trinque phf: yeah I'm not taking responsibility for the next exploit in all this garbage tyvm
15:11 asciilifeform trinque: ratings are one of the very few things for which the case for signature is screamingly clear
15:11 trinque I'd have thought so.
15:11 asciilifeform yes, enemy can lock you in a cave and show you old ratings until you die of old age
15:11 trinque perhaps danielpbarron thinks we should prune our blockchains of all blocks without unspent outputs too
15:11 trinque because we all know the system has always worked
15:11 asciilifeform and if you are dumb enough not to notice that you are in the cave, and relied on unsigned ratings, he can now also show you wholly-fictitious ones.
15:11 phf trinque: why not? my responsibility, the log, failed as a combination of things inside of my control and outside of my control. i apologized and tried better next time. it's not a bad system.
15:12 trinque phf: we agree there.
15:12 trinque what I mean is, you were not impaled.
15:12 trinque :p
15:12 trinque so then why is danielpbarron getting in the way of me trying "better next time"
15:13 trinque in advance, rather than once upon a fuckup
15:13 mats eagerness
15:13 asciilifeform mircea_popescu's original 'gossiptronic' argument -- and i suppose he can elaborate when he wakes up -- was that a signature is a kind of autonomous and indestructible truth-telling robot, that can be of use to the enemy if one is not careful about when you create it and out of what
15:14 phf he's arguing a position against yours. he's not getting in your way. perhaps he's trying to say that he's not particularly eager to have dozens of his own signatures floating around with some opaque digital data in there directed at machine?
15:14 danielpbarron ^
15:14 asciilifeform a signed rating is a correct use of the robot. in fact vtronics consists entirely of this type of thing
15:14 trinque I didn't hear a position other than "not needed"
15:14 trinque that isn't a statement with content
15:14 asciilifeform when i sign phf's patch, i have 'posrated' the patch.
15:14 trinque aha
15:15 danielpbarron my argument isn't "not needed" ; it's that it's dangerous
15:15 asciilifeform danielpbarron: please paint a picture for us, of the danger
15:15 asciilifeform a gedankenexperiment.
15:15 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576544
15:15 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:55 danielpbarron: that's what sigs are for, one-off "maje sure you get this text unmolested" ; ~not~ here is a public record of official signed things
15:16 asciilifeform one reason why signatures are a uniquely useful things is that they can outlive creator.
15:16 phf ratings are meaningless though without the creator
15:17 asciilifeform here's where apparently i disagree.
15:17 danielpbarron i don't see how that's useful in the WoT
15:17 asciilifeform they are of no use without creator's pubkey, yes.
15:17 trinque the fact is preserved that he who had this key said X
↖
15:17 asciilifeform with signatures a 'donation of constantine' scenario falls immediately out.
15:17 phf asciilifeform: no no that's sort of like the "what's the wot" article. the "number is meaningless without asking the creator" part
15:17 trinque if you put something in the signed material that gives when, that, also
15:17 asciilifeform phf: forget the number. there are only 3 numbers that matter, -1,0,1.
15:18 trinque k conflated here is "this was said" vs "what it means"
15:18 asciilifeform and these --- matter.
15:18 trinque I am only interested in the hardening of the former
15:19 asciilifeform granted i can easily see how danielpbarron might have come upon his position, given as he practices a religion based on stuffing words into the mouth of long-dead fella
15:19 danielpbarron i think it's even dangerous to use sigs to preserve things in stone like that. shouldn't be more than a tool to ensure we're talking about the same text. tge signed material doesn't enforce itself. otherwise we're off into smart contract territory
15:20 asciilifeform without these 'stones', there is no one who is talking.
15:20 asciilifeform only idiots sitting in caves and each watching unique apocryphal usg film of his own.
15:20 phf this is a very beurocratic position
15:20 * asciilifeform bbl, the lattices are here!!
15:21 phf you're redefining the meaning of wot "for sekuriti!!1"
15:22 trinque "meh, data integrity is your job :^)" << >> "alright, I want fucking signed material then"
15:22 trinque this is emphatically "I just want to" use it the way it is
15:23 phf you don't want to even hear the opposing side so resort to constructing strawmen
15:23 trinque what did I not hear, exactly?
15:24 danielpbarron signed ratings, to me, seems like it mostly benifits random newcomer/evesdropper with little to no benefit for actual users
15:24 trinque phf: how the fuck do I parse a statement like that ^
15:24 trinque where does it fit in the model of the discussion so far ?
15:24 trinque it's just another ad hoc "I feel X"
15:24 phf trinque: i ~understood~ what he said, and it's an additional point unrelated to his previous argumnt
15:26 mats strong words here, lets be pals
15:26 trinque who's negrating anyone ?
15:26 danielpbarron i've been reading the log for years. i'd very much like to see someone hack the bot and change ratings. let enemy make a fool of himself
15:27 trinque "he can fuck my wife; his dick's small anyway"
15:27 trinque lel
15:27 jurov lol actually it was not hacked. just forked.
15:28 jurov and good luck for someone comingoutside to determine from ratings wtf happened with bitbet
15:28 jurov *from outside
15:29 jurov was that the argiument?
15:29 danielpbarron the fork happened in the channel. we all read about it. whereas a hack would have no context to back the rating up
15:29 phf the architecture ~right now~ is as secure as your setup. there's no way to mitm wot ratings. if there's an error in wot, there's not even a point to start a stink. you go and fix the rating if you changed it drunk, or you let trinque know that there's some serious issue. we unroll last week's signed wot and proceed from there
15:30 phf the proposed alternative provides a verifiable audit trail of all the ratings made by everyone, without necessary solving mitm problems
15:31 danielpbarron it was my understanding that we specifically don't want such an audit trail
15:31 phf that was the conclusion of the thread last time we had this conversation, yes
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15:31 trinque speak instead of what you want, eh?
15:32 danielpbarron i agree with that conclusion
15:32 trinque great, but I'm discussing providing something as a service as a matter of business.
15:33 trinque I'm not going to provide Eulora infrastructure with a standard of "if something fucks up, eh, we'll go back and fix it later"
15:34 phf i missed the part where wot was going to be integrated into eulora? i know that deedbot was mentioned
15:34 danielpbarron the eulora rsa isn't the same as WoT is it?
15:35 danielpbarron i mean i'm not gonna put my key on a networked machine
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15:35 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576492 << twas the very beginning of the discussin.
15:35 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:21 trinque: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576279 << I'm certainly open to discussing this. I'll give it some thought and then raise the thread.
15:35 trinque *ioin
15:35 trinque eh fuck, lag
15:35 danielpbarron so i assumed people would still have to resister their actual key with the bot prior to getting their eulora account
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15:36 trinque says rates and deeds in-game there
15:37 danielpbarron ok. so then let eulora dump and sign its ratings periodically. i don't see why you shouldn't trust it to give you the correct data
15:37 trinque you are arguing *from* a conclusion rather than towards one
15:38 trinque so give me your perspective from the other direction.
15:38 phf trinque: he doesn't want an audit trail of ratings.
15:38 trinque why!!!
15:38 trinque that is a purpose. "so that I do not have an audit trail"
15:39 trinque and I already know, "because then people can grab an item from the trail and say that's HEAD"
15:39 danielpbarron i agree the ratings should be signed when sent over wire (to preserve the text) but there is no reason the sigs need to be around each individual rating
15:39 trinque imagine I'm a bot saying why after every danielpbarron
15:40 trinque because it is upon me to keep the integrity of the db?
15:40 trinque if so, I say fine, I choose the tool called cryptography to do so
15:40 danielpbarron trinque, also because fuck anyone who wants my ratings. anyone who has business in seeing them already has means to
15:40 phf trinque: because ratings doesn't have meaning at all outside of rater
15:40 phf *don't
15:41 phf ~i~ see it as an equivalent of signing and stamping every page of notebook "for integrity"
15:41 phf *of my notebook
15:41 trinque it is not your notebook; I am holding it
15:42 trinque why is my claim "this is page x of phf's notebook" good enough here, but my claim "phf paid me 1000 BTC" is not good enough ?
15:42 phf it's a metaphor, you can find all kinds of ways to invalidate it, i was hoping it might clarify understanding
15:42 trinque sure, I'm just sparring back!
15:42 trinque works pretty well I hear
15:43 phf yes, but i understand you, and you don't understand me, there's really no point in sparing until there's a mutual disagreement over shared understanding. this is like sparring 101
15:44 asciilifeform not one of you is taking seriously the 'how to leave a good looking and proper corpse' problem, are you.
15:44 asciilifeform reminds me of tale from albert speer's book about ruins
15:44 asciilifeform during dinner with hitler et al, speer (among other things, reichsminister of architecture) made a comment about 'one problem, our concrete houses will leave very poor ruins'
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15:45 asciilifeform table fell silent, because omfg defeatism wtf
15:45 phf asciilifeform: i understood your take and i think that wot is a poor defense against "good looking corpse" problem
15:45 asciilifeform but fuhrer wisely replied, 'it is true, we must think about how to leave good ruins, no one lives forever.'
15:45 asciilifeform supposedly.
15:45 * asciilifeform wasn't there.
15:46 asciilifeform phf: if pubkey is preserved, and privkey of dead man -- well-destroyed, suddenly the 'donation of constantine' problem evaporates.
↖
15:46 trinque phf: I understood, and it would make more sense then to have a way of querying phf for his notebook
15:46 asciilifeform i would like to hear some kind of logical counter to this statement. and still have not.
15:47 trinque there's all this theatrical "I rated X in public" and it's written with finger in sand
15:47 phf i think it's entirely petty and pointless to use wot as a weaponized shunning
15:47 asciilifeform weaponized shunning is the only effective weapon.
15:47 asciilifeform all of asciilifeform's tech, v, yet-unreleased items, resolve ultimately to it.
15:48 asciilifeform it is how we build a universe with semi-permeable walls, vermin on one side, people - on other.
15:48 trinque certainly uncovers a source of disagreement.
15:48 * trinque also in favor of cryptographic mark of cain
15:48 asciilifeform danielpbarron , i think, also believes in mechanized shunning, but takes it further yet, and would like to deny enemy access to ratings also
15:49 asciilifeform but it is not clear to me that this wins more than it costs.
15:50 phf a magic talisman against badmen
15:50 asciilifeform keep in mind, in a fully gossiptronic wot as pictured by danielpbarron , your knowledge of anything outside of your l1 is ~0.
15:50 asciilifeform 100% apocrypha.
15:51 asciilifeform phf: talismans are problematic not only when they do not work, but especially when they ~do~. e.g., washing hands -- worx
15:51 asciilifeform and then there are the compulsives who wash 50x day, etc.
15:51 asciilifeform penicillin at one point was also 'talisman that worked'
15:51 asciilifeform not many more dangerous power tools than a... working talisman.
15:52 trinque this was the problem mod6 had with signing the dependency turds thrown into deedbot
15:52 asciilifeform folx will throw any thought of indirect costs out of their heads, when 'talisman worx!1111'
15:52 trinque ended up with disclaimer at top saying "I do not love these; I merely state that they exist"
15:53 trinque I see this as the meaning of a rating already. "This exists"
15:53 asciilifeform trinque: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1545 << oblig
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15:53 trinque if I say "I love my wife" in it, then I do; signing "wife exists" doesn't mean I love her
15:53 trinque asciilifeform: aha, wherever this data exists it is not implied by a sig
15:53 asciilifeform (absolutely mandatory reading for this thread imho, and it is unfortunate that the piece was lost in the cacophony of the bbet disaster)
15:53 trinque *the mere presence of
15:54 trinque signing is the cryptographic act of observation
15:54 asciilifeform a sig is a tool of the dead as well as of the living.
15:55 phf well, what's the thinking here? that after your death all negrated entities are "possible suspects"?
15:55 phf traditionally this is solved with "obama dun did it, i hear him knocking on the door"
15:57 trinque if my dead grandfather hated someone, I would most certainly care about that given that he was a man I respected.
↖
15:57 trinque that fact is useful after he is gone.
15:57 phf well, if that's a common understanding, then i don't understand mp's what is wot article
15:57 asciilifeform phf: the thinking is that nobody should be able to create an asciilifeform-signed vpatch after he is dead. omfg, this is hard concept?!
15:58 phf asciilifeform: when did vpatch come in? what the fuck
15:58 asciilifeform it is an instance of same material.
↖
15:58 asciilifeform a rating.
15:58 deedbot http://cascadianhacker.com/software-maintenance-costs-and-depreciation-schedules << CH - Software Maintenance Costs and Depreciation Schedules
15:58 asciilifeform just of a piece of text vs. another d00d's pubkey.
15:58 trinque before another bout of triggering happens, I think this well defines the debate
15:58 phf ~ratings are meaningless outside of rater~ this is our fundamental disagreement
15:58 trinque are ratings ephemeral indications to consult the author or are they permanent marks
15:59 phf right
15:59 asciilifeform phf: i think we may have more fundamental disagreement:
15:59 asciilifeform what constitutes 'the rater'
15:59 asciilifeform is it necessarily a living, breathing man ?
15:59 asciilifeform we have already established that it is possible to live and to cease to live as rater ( a d00d in prison, or gabriel_laddel, or, or)
16:00 asciilifeform or the d00dz whose keys i phuctored
16:00 trinque it is also not necessary to say that because ratings exist in the past I must care about them as much as those more recent
16:00 trinque what was said being distinct from how I evaluate it
16:00 asciilifeform i, and this is i suppose no secret to anyone , am a 'past-oriented' fella.
16:01 phf asciilifeform: well, but what's the "more fundamental disagreement" stated?
16:01 asciilifeform phf: in my cosmography, a 'rater' is a pubkey
↖
16:01 asciilifeform not a man.
16:01 asciilifeform it is, for instance, conceivable , from the pov of you folx, that asciilifeform is a bourbaki.
16:01 asciilifeform make 0 diff .
16:02 asciilifeform *makes
16:03 phf i don't know if we disagree there, but i don't see how that makes a difference
16:03 phf if i were to give a pubkey to a111 and it starts rating people based on how many btcbase references they make a day (there's a quota!)
16:04 phf i'm not going to go asking a111 what he meant by it, and i would laugh to anyone who'd try
16:05 asciilifeform this example is only an example in so far as it would be a pretty pointless mechanism
16:05 asciilifeform but picture , for instance, if phuctor bot rated keys that were phuctored, in the moment of.
↖
16:05 asciilifeform (leaving aside that there is no effective means for securing a private key at a datacentre box )
16:05 trinque useful, and for all time
16:06 phf but what am i going to do with that knowledge? i'd still have to ask somebody (presumably you) to both proove overwnship of phuctor bot and to explain to me what those ratings mean. or else you have a document that you prepared that explains the logic, etc.
16:06 asciilifeform yes, it is ~impossible to make a robot-who-rates , with tech as i currently understand it. does not change the fact that perma-ratings are a fundamentally stronger building material than 'go and ask him and see if he feels like telling you the truth'
16:07 trinque asciilifeform: release gossipd already so I can write a DHT for it !1!!1 solves WoT, solves "DNS", solves ...
16:07 trinque :D
16:07 asciilifeform phf: you would simply need to HAVE ASKED me 20 years ago for pubkey.
16:07 asciilifeform or maybe i graffiti'd it on the moon. or in corpses in group photo in afghan. wherever.
16:07 asciilifeform it is not so hard to preserve a few kBit permanently.
16:07 phf asciilifeform: ok, my point was that i don't see how that's a more fundamental than "no rating outside of rater"
16:08 asciilifeform the way i read danielpbarron's thought, was that he sees 'rater' as necessarily a living entity ready to carry on conversation.
16:08 asciilifeform whereas i - as simply a pubkey.
16:08 asciilifeform that might belong to a long-dead great grandfather.
16:11 phf oh so you were saying fundamental disagreement between you and danielpbarron rather than me
16:13 phf well, dpb dropped out of this conversation, and i apparently have isolated understanding of wot.
16:18 trinque at least now we're in a position to discuss the cost/benefit of a forgetful WoT.
16:20 trinque if it is better to forget, lets make that explicit. when/why, and not just as an artifact of being built on shoddy computing infrastructure.
↖
16:20 phf for me wot is a partial externalization of a hawala network and as far as -1,0,1 is concerned ~perhaps~ indicates prevalent opinions among the people whose opinion i value, but by convention only. in this sense the wot follows the lords and not the other way around. it has some practical use like serving as a door bouncer and ostensibly letting newbs know who to talk to.
16:22 trinque it becomes hard to distinguish from the gossipd-graph, eh?
16:23 trinque I could see an argument that the WoT evolves into the gossipd graph.
16:23 trinque and then yes, can't talk to a deadman in either case.
16:25 trinque whereas I see them as distinct; wot is the history of my past and present gossipd connections, and indications of what I thought of them
16:29 phf neither current wot nor gossipd spec wot have the history component, because if you go by "there's no rating outside of rater" past ratings make absolutely no difference.
16:30 trinque I meant "I used to be peered with / do business with / talk to X, but may no longer"
16:30 trinque it is my history with the person eval'd to what I deem the present state
16:31 phf well, speaking of history audit trail does introduce explicit history where there wasn't any
16:31 trinque it does.
16:31 trinque something else comes to mind; there exists in our logs a person named trinque who is not the present trinque
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16:32 trinque we keep the logs, presumably forever
16:32 trinque why?
16:32 trinque if ratings are ephemeral, seems logs must also be. relevant here that we tend to rate in the logs.
16:32 * mircea_popescu waves. i shall write this short i woke up with and read all this!
16:33 * trinque enjoyed
16:33 trinque back in a bit
16:36 mircea_popescu aaand we find teh english has no equivalent of ojina/užina wtf is this bs.
16:36 mircea_popescu how is a squire supposed to fatten into a sphere properly if there's no meal between lunch and dinner ?
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16:47 diana_coman isn't that tea?
16:47 diana_coman scones and butter and what-not
16:48 mircea_popescu aha.
16:48 mircea_popescu must be
16:50 danielpbarron re preserving log: we don't sign each line we send. but feel free to sign the whole thing
17:04 danielpbarron !~bible matthew 8:22
17:04 jhvh1 danielpbarron: [KJV] Matthew 8:22 :: But Jesus said unto him, Follow me; and let the dead bury their dead.
17:05 asciilifeform http://wtop.com/montgomery-county/2016/11/trump-supporter-15-beaten-during-rockville-protest/slide/1/ << in other lelz
17:05 * asciilifeform actually went to this school. or rather, diff one by same name that used to stand in the empty lot next to that one.
17:06 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576455 << running the "oh, that wasn't a wedding, who goes out in the desert to have weddings (outside of weirdo californians) and there was no leftover food or musical instruments or anything)" side by side with the AP footage showing all the lively colored bedding and pots and pans and various bits of goatfucker musical instruments is quite the COIN exercise.
17:06 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 18:39 mats: at least half a dozen by my count
17:07 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576789 << holy fuck your ужин is b/w lunch & dinner ?! like english tea??
17:07 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 21:36 mircea_popescu: how is a squire supposed to fatten into a sphere properly if there's no meal between lunch and dinner ?
17:07 asciilifeform ours is before bed !
17:07 mircea_popescu you go to bed with the chickens ?
17:08 mircea_popescu civilised people have artificial light, stay up longer.
17:08 asciilifeform i have nfi when chicken goes to bed
17:08 asciilifeform i think american chickens get lamps
17:08 mircea_popescu with the light. you can put a chick to sleep right now by covering its head. the brain is eye-powered like in frogs.
17:08 asciilifeform anyway no, you don't go straight to bed after it, but it happens 1-3h prior
17:08 mircea_popescu so what's between lunch and dinner ?
17:10 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576459 << i certainly did as a kid.
17:10 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 18:48 asciilifeform: i thought that all children played like this...
17:20 deedbot http://trilema.com/2016/esteemed-james-l-caldwell/ << Trilema - Esteemed James L. Caldwell...
17:22 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576465 << i dunno what prisons you've been in, but nobody can be arsed to do the whole bickering bs as far as i saw.
17:22 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 18:50 asciilifeform: aha, in the 'black schools' there is neverending fight, like in a prison, and even bouncers to pry apart especially eager folk. and everyone with 'room temperature iq' however you measure it, also
17:22 mircea_popescu not that it's bad for kids, though it does promote some tilt towards the tomboyish look in girls that i don't find welcome.
17:23 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576477 << if only. gorby has smarter people.
17:23 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:03 asciilifeform: they are in the gorbachev 'kooperativ' phase
17:24 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576483 << i dun think it's particularly naive.
17:24 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:13 mats: this will sound naive, but humans in outer space represents an ideal of social cooperation and unity of purpose - against the environment trying to kill us - that i feel we've long since lost
17:26 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576486 << this is ~rank nonsense. the closest approximation is the west, where women were traded for tobacco, or every other colonisation event. where, each and every time, women started as merchandise.
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17:26 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:16 phf: according neil stephenson in such a situation only womens will survive
17:27 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576491 << it is very much precedented, by the age of sail. EXACTLY the same "men, on a boat, cooperating, not taking the ale and ribracks for granted" etc.
17:27 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:21 ben_vulpes: mats: also entirely unprecedented
17:30 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576496 << this is a bad idea, for multiple reasons. one of them being that it requires to give sign capacity to the clients, which is deeply undesirable ; another being that it encourages a retarded notion/expectation of repudiability.
17:30 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:24 trinque: I lean towards flipping the model to "decrypt and sign this command + OTP" vs "decrypt and send in the clear this OTP"
17:33 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576504 << to add... flavour to this, /me will on occasion go to pee, find girl taking bath, pee on girl rather than in the usual place. not only is it ecological and great for the hair, but it's a lot easier to aim.
17:33 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:30 mats: in vaccuum - every grain is consumed, every ml of urine recovered
17:34 ben_vulpes boats, huh. /me smacks self
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17:34 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576511 << yes but it would require client to know all sorts of things client doesn't want to know about.
17:34 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:39 trinque: if ratings were this kind of material I could chatter them to anyone interested as they are received, and conceivably "only chatter me things about the L2 of <key>"
17:35 mircea_popescu why so violent ben_vulpes !
17:36 ben_vulpes a lifetime of communist-repressed masculinity leaking out i suppose
17:36 mircea_popescu lol.
17:37 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576517 << they're not equivalent but imo his is the better solution. though i'm not even sure what the problem is.
17:37 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:44 trinque: that is in no way equivalent
17:37 ben_vulpes ("fewer than eight cylinders? communist. more than eight cylinders? communist." tm r those car guys)
17:37 * mircea_popescu awaits teh man to return.
17:39 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576521 << they are ?! why ? i have no intention for my rating of X to be opposable to me. it is information i provide free of charge and on an as-is basis, literally saying "if you're trying to eval X i may be able to help". it would be the height of impudence for y to demand something on the basis of "i have this here signed thing".
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17:39 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 asciilifeform: ratings are the one clearest case for 'must stand alone'
17:40 asciilifeform what can i say, whoever wants to turn his ratings into promisetronium -- can.
17:40 mircea_popescu this theoretical problem is evinced in practice by the expiration problem - what do you do about all the ratings i may have signed ? so you have rating for x at time t, what's this say ? is it correct or isn't it correct ?
17:40 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nothing prevents me from putting in ratings as deeds ; nor anyone else. yet few do.
17:40 asciilifeform because gymnastics.
17:40 mircea_popescu the old distinction between fact and fiction prevails. ratings are not facts.
17:41 ben_vulpes oh come now you had the keys out when decrypting deedbot's pad
17:41 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes but the item does not sign anything.
17:41 ben_vulpes the keys are out already, spend five seconds to write a thing if it matters to you.
17:41 mircea_popescu yes i had the keys out. but to pee not to make johnny little brothers.
17:42 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: for all you know, i can decrypt by sending via diode into the nuke vault, but to SIGN i gotta take the rocket out to access the modulus.
17:42 ben_vulpes if 'gymnastics', then does it really matter?
17:42 ben_vulpes a right.
17:43 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576515 << it is not a good thing in any sense. think for a moment : if the ratings are live, which is to say, they actually do stand up to their purpose of "if you try to eval x ask these people", then those people will re-advertise. if they do not, then they should have been deleted in the first place.
17:43 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:42 trinque: but at any rate, making the WoT something that can be rebuilt from public information when I am dead is a good thing
17:44 mircea_popescu there's absolutely no valuable information that would be lost if you fucked up the db today and we had to re-do it. just inconvenience to a lot of live people, but it's of the nature of "tee hee i garbled everyone's shopping lists as found on the fridge" not of the "tee hee i burned all extant aramaic manuscripts".
17:48 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576522 << aha, very much this. http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576523 << no, really, it's actually design so you verify it by asking the rater. if anyone ever goes "wtf" we know we have a problem.
17:48 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 danielpbarron: there is no "verifying a rating" beyond asking the rater yourself
17:48 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 asciilifeform: as in, you should be able to verify it solely by possessing the rating + the pubkey of the rater.
17:48 trinque I address my counterposition to this in thread.
17:48 trinque the hardware is all shit, and lies
17:48 trinque so then it tends towards why warehouse this at all
17:48 trinque if we are not warehousing cryptographic facts
17:49 trinque I am for example not willing to do the wallet if fucking up the db is possible.
17:49 mircea_popescu because we've decided to live in the world as it is rather than wait for someone else (who ?) to make a better one
17:50 mircea_popescu trinque what do you mean by fucking up the db in that context as something else was being contemplated when i said it ?
17:51 trinque in the case of both WoT and wallet, from an engineers perspective I have a database which changes state when outside parties tell it.
17:51 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576524 << you sign facts ; opinions are not facts ; what is a "cryptographic fact" in your usage above ?
17:51 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:49 trinque: danielpbarron: how do you justify signing anything by this logic ?
17:51 mircea_popescu aha.
17:51 trinque it is a fact that I have spoken this opinion at this time
17:51 mircea_popescu a rating you mean ? but a rating isn't an opinion, it's an advertisement. much like an offer in a magazine is a tender not a deal.
17:52 trinque the bare state of the data is the fact meant
17:52 trinque not the encoded meaning
17:52 mircea_popescu but the bare state of data isn't a fact ;/
17:53 trinque please explain?
17:54 trinque I have here a machine with levers on it which can be pulled via proven control of a given key
17:54 trinque except that it has also secret levers which can be pulled over the network card with a magic packet and all other sorts of nonsense
17:55 trinque only defense against this I can see is warehousing what was said and being able to verify that it was said out of band
17:56 asciilifeform i'm with trinque re 'a signed opinion is a fact.' if i take 1TB from my rng and sign it, that is a perma-fossilized piece of my volition.
17:56 asciilifeform even if no one knows wtf i thought i was doing .
17:57 trinque i.e. I immediately spray all signed material to a box whose only function is to back up the pile of signed incoming statements, and over a serial diode.
17:57 trinque in the case of the wallet, I have something I can verify before and every time I move coin
18:00 trinque this model is also applicable using OTP, I'm aware, but while it proves something to *me*, it doesn't prove it to anyone else.
18:01 trinque hm. you know what. if I stockpile encrypted OTP material which is also encrypted to my own key, I suppose it does the same.
18:01 trinque provided other people see me send this encrypted OTP to another
18:03 * trinque takes it back. seems to require access to my private key for anyone else to believe it.
18:05 mircea_popescu asciilifeform a pile of rng bits IS a fact.
18:06 asciilifeform and so is a rategram.
18:06 mircea_popescu trinque so basically, to understand this, the problem you are working against is this situation where you are tricked into making false payments by a secret owner of your hardware ?
18:06 trinque exactly.
18:07 trinque narrowing the hole for that.
18:07 mircea_popescu asciilifeform no. and this confusion between fact and fiction driven by the engineering perspective that "oh it is a fact TO ME" eventually ends up with usg and the "fact" of "fake media"
18:07 mircea_popescu trinque is this different from "you were tricked into making false payments by secret owner of all rsa keys" ?
18:07 asciilifeform sooo pray tell why the transformator that can turn rng bits into fact, breaks its teeth against a rategram.
18:08 mircea_popescu asciilifeform nothing transforms the rng bits into fact. they were fact, from the beginning, owing to the absence of meaning.
18:08 mircea_popescu but the rategram is not a fact, it's just meaning.
18:08 trinque mircea_popescu: there are many enemies with many means of attack
18:08 mircea_popescu trinque i believe the correct pill to this would be to keep the moving sums small, rather than fucking the mechanism.
18:09 trinque is not the binary number which represents a rating a fact, which encodes a meaning?
18:09 mircea_popescu ie, when dealing with unquantifiable unknown risks, methodological approaches are costs with no benefit./
18:09 mircea_popescu trinque facts don't encode anything. that's what it's like to be a fact - you may only be interpreted, but exist outside and above any meaning.
18:09 asciilifeform and my rating ' mircea_popescu : +9999: best buddy, died in vietnam but not forgotten , my only trustworthy supplier of mersenne primes, there shall be no more but those he signed for me ' is equally 'fact' and certifiable as any rng bit
18:10 mats http://www.wsj.com/articles/u-s-to-forgive-at-least-108-billion-in-student-debt-in-coming-years-1480501802 << holy shit, where is usg going to find 100bn
18:10 asciilifeform mats: from the nonexistent 'retirements' the owed money was to supposedly pay for.
18:10 mircea_popescu mats bannon got 1trn, they'll manage.
18:10 asciilifeform mats: and every other obligation usg will gleefully default on, like fdr on his gold bonds
18:11 mats mircea_popescu: talking about killing medicare?
18:11 mircea_popescu no whatever infrastructure development fund, i have nfi, the whole thing's vague as fake hair.
18:11 mats well, cutting off its legs
18:12 mats asciilifeform: i wonder how many people actually thought entitlements like SS, Medicare, would live forever...
18:12 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576528 << they have to. there is no "one" answer. suppose the case where i rate someone X as a 3 because i dunno, we go fishing. suppose A asks me about X because he's contemplating going hunting, and B asks me about X because he's contemplating playing chess.
18:12 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:50 asciilifeform: i dun see the 'win' from encouraging people to byzantiate and twofaced lie and give different answer to X and to Y regarding how they rate Z.
18:13 asciilifeform mats: i dunno that many folx walk around with notions of 'thousand year reich' directly present in their heads. but 'will last long enough for ME' is probably common delusion.
18:13 mircea_popescu to A i shall say "and he doesn't snore" and to B i shall say "he's a patient sort"
18:13 mircea_popescu this notion that ratings encode some sort of single unified pointed scalar truth has got to die already. it's not only very stupid, it's actually in the way.
18:13 asciilifeform i am beginning to suspect that different folx want different and possibly incompatible things from the concept of wot.
18:13 * trinque thought no such thing
18:14 mircea_popescu asciilifeform illustrate ?
18:14 mircea_popescu trinque i don't think you did, but we ended up with a whole front here and since we're discussing it let's discuss altogether.
18:14 trinque certainly
18:15 mircea_popescu asciilifeform and note that the only fact in your list of facts is my dying. which imparts some fact-flavour to the rest of the string.
18:15 trinque but asciilifeform yes, along the ephemeral/gossip vs mark-of-cain fault line?
18:15 asciilifeform i'ma let trinque illustrate, since my current understanding is that he sees the pov, and it is easier to have socratic thread with 2 rather than 3
18:15 mircea_popescu hmmkay.
18:16 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576531 << this is a major problem, folks can then create alt-chans in which alt-wots live AND YOU CAN VERIFY - ITS SIGNED!
18:16 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:52 danielpbarron: i thought this was already done in the log : suppose i give +5 one day and -10 the next? without the latter it would appear i trust the guy -- WITH SIGNATURE!!!
18:16 trinque signed does not mean true in my view.
18:16 mircea_popescu i'm not about to give the wolf a falx on top of everything.
18:16 mircea_popescu trinque what does it mean then ?
18:17 trinque it only means "this statement was made"
18:17 trinque by the holder of the pen^H^H^Hkey
18:17 trinque maybe you signed contract A at one point, then signed B which brought about termination of A, and I don't have B
18:17 mircea_popescu there have to be layers. my hitting return is "this statement was made" ; my signing should be "this statement was made with a view of it being opposable to the maker".
18:17 asciilifeform my basic problem with unsigned-ratings is that enemy can fabricate a fictional me from WHOLE CLOTH rather than being stuck with selected pieces of what i actually did.
18:17 trinque doesn't mean A is still in effect
18:18 asciilifeform (as in the 'old ratings shown to man trapped in cave' scene.)
18:18 trinque that I hold signed material does not say something about the state of the world
18:18 mircea_popescu asciilifeform enemy already does this ; so does your gf. everyone you come into contact with is fabricating a fictional you from the whole cloth of their head.
18:18 trinque only about the existence of that material in the eyes of the signer
18:18 mircea_popescu which is how there exist these washpo that is a reputable source, qntra that is a spamsite etc.
18:19 asciilifeform with pubkey crypto it is possible to make a rigorous reality with tall buildings in it, with steel frames, instead of this ubiquitous liquishit.
18:19 mircea_popescu trinque the problem here is like so : if you don't sign the stuff, you have a river, which will have to be forded. people wanting to get across know what they're doing - fording a river.
18:19 mircea_popescu if you construct the signing infrastructure, there's a river with a railway bridge. however, segments may be missing ; and this can't be known.
18:20 mircea_popescu people approaching this other river will drown.
18:23 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576548 << you don't ; nor is it your business to. this is simply not a service you offer.
18:23 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 19:56 trinque: how do I currently know by looking at my database that no item in it was altered by somebody spraying bits into my server via network card -> dma
18:23 mircea_popescu all i want to know from you if such a situation is discovered is if you did it or not.
18:24 mircea_popescu and there's a damned good reason you don't, nor is it a service you offer : the difficulty of "looking at the data, establish its validity" exceeds building the ai.
18:25 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what means 'with a view of it being opposable to the maker' ?
18:27 mircea_popescu well see part of the problem is merchant law. so : there's two kinds of writs, one of which can be opposed to the author, which is to say if he later makes a claim, anyone with standing (like the guy he's making the claim against) can oppose the writ.
18:27 mats asciilifeform: http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/4mzjk/?raw=true
18:27 mircea_popescu "you owe me 5 guilders" "this writ says i don't". "i never meant for my daughter to be chained to the post naked for all comers" "then why does this offer her ?" etc.
18:27 trinque I can see that I'm opposing massive precedent behind what signing means.
18:27 trinque it's a fair point
18:28 mircea_popescu it's not just precedent, either. it has its own sort of contorted but domain-appropriate logic.
18:28 asciilifeform oh ty mats
18:28 asciilifeform mats: where'dya get thhis
18:28 asciilifeform oh nm, found, in the end.
18:29 mircea_popescu anyway. merchant law, which incidentally i advise all curious minds to review, not only long predates civil law or the british mandaciousa attempts to enact a systematized "common law" as older than it was - but actually informed all legal work of the states. they basically stole the merchant's code much like the french stole the templar's wealth.
18:29 mircea_popescu not that there's anything wrong with stealing from the wise.
18:30 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what'd be a use case for 'non-opposable writ' ?
18:30 mircea_popescu this line.
18:30 asciilifeform other than napkin drawing in restaurant.
18:31 asciilifeform or that time when ben_vulpes explained to mats how trinque killed and shinohai ate kennedy.
18:31 mircea_popescu and herein included - all my ratings. you can not at some point come and say "X scammed me of a btc and you had him rated +1 therefore you owe me some cents"
18:32 trinque this I can see, much better than earlier protests that "it's not necessary", meaning no ill towards danielpbarron
18:32 asciilifeform but how would that even make sense
18:32 mircea_popescu in fact, you can not at any point raise any objection to any of my ratings. they're whatever they are and you're more than welcome to go hang, there's no "detrimental reliance" on them for you.
18:32 trinque it would be flooding the world with things you have to one by one argue against in court, more or less
18:32 mircea_popescu and in the process making a serious court impossible.
18:32 * trinque sees entirely
18:33 mircea_popescu there's two reasons one does not wish to be cavallier with signed matter. one is purely technological, as discussed briefly above, but the more important one is ecology of the republic of the mind. you wish to make THE STRICT MINIMUM of signed statements you can get by with AND NOT A SINGLE MORE.
18:35 mircea_popescu and re the facts/fiction discussion : a very good rule of thumb to distinguish fact from fiction is right here - can it be opposed to anyone ? for instance, trump's election is a fact, and here it is a fact because i have opposed it to alf to force him to reconsider his political evaluator.
18:35 mircea_popescu whether he did or didn't or did a bum job of it or anything isn't even at issue - the oppositive quality of facts distingushes them from mere meaning just like the thumb stands out on the hand.
18:36 mircea_popescu and for this reason ratings can't have to be signed - they can never be opposed to the maker.
↖
18:36 mircea_popescu so that settles that. nevertheless, orders to pay CAN have to be signed, because obviously they will be opposed to the maker during settling of accounts.
18:37 mircea_popescu whether they also should is i suppose in discussion here ?
18:37 trinque right, so then I've cleaved the nature of the two systems in my own mind.
18:39 * shinohai munches on Kennedy's forearm in lieu of popcorn
18:39 trinque I certainly would want to be able to show that I moved even latte money in accordance with someone's agreement.
18:39 asciilifeform there are several quite obvious scenarios where 1) i would like a reliable picture of what someone else rated 2) it is impractical to converse. one, discussed earlier, is death. another -- long voyages, at sea, on the run from nazis, with partizans in the forest, etc.
18:39 mircea_popescu i don't have a very strong opinion on the signing of payment orders. i suppose it's a tradeoff of convenience vs corectness.
18:39 trinque or "every user of this system accepts my judgement on the movement of coin wholly, or uses something else"
18:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform the ratings of dead people are meaningless in the marketplace ; and only interesting to the inept historian.
18:40 trinque I suppose that's fine too
18:40 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: here is i think where we disagree irreconcilably, 99% of everything i learned that i see as worth knowing came from dead folx.
18:40 asciilifeform and in particular from dead wots.
18:40 mircea_popescu trinque that's the consideration here. if you have the signatures, evidently people can trust you with larger sums, but how much larger i can not say ; but evidently you will need the management in place to be able to produce the materials on challenge.
18:40 trinque perhaps a man can sign his own wot time to time
18:41 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes, but they were not ratings.
18:42 mircea_popescu trinque you can even have a system of "orders over X value or nth in a day have to be clearsigned" and have the user set X and n ?
18:42 trinque I like that.
18:42 mircea_popescu can't possibly be any complaints, with such a scheme.
18:43 mircea_popescu "this account is authorised to draft up to 3 times sums up to 1 btc through direct command" and have people send you a signed thing to bump it.
18:47 trinque asciilifeform: if one wanted to make a statement for all time about a key, there's always a deed.
18:48 asciilifeform trinque: this doesn't solve the ~expectation~ problem
18:51 trinque which?
18:54 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576558 << well as it turns out, ratings are a lot closer to sexual intercourse than previously realised ; but in any sense what i meant was the point of reference (ie, i will fuck this curvaceous lady as the body presents itself and do business with fa9fblabla, which are the two presentations of the supposed same but otherwise uncapturable spirit). i didn't mean business BY the keys when i s
18:54 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 20:01 asciilifeform: when mircea_popescu wrote the piece where 'sex -- with people, business -- with keys' - what does danielpbarron suppose he meant ?
18:54 mircea_popescu aid business WITH the keys. the manner of conducting business is left to the faculty of the merchant ; at issue is the reference point of said business.
18:59 hanbot <mircea_popescu> asciilifeform the ratings of dead people are meaningless in the marketplace ; and only interesting to the inept historian. << i have a hard time agreeing with this; even should death prevent a rating reflective of the current state of things, a past rating from a ghost could still be "meaningful" in its distance from w/e the current status -is-, no?
18:59 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576821 << we had an early thread where asciilifeform and i commiserated over how much "seveneves" sucked (seven eves, get it!1)
18:59 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 22:26 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576486 << this is ~rank nonsense. the closest approximation is the west, where women were traded for tobacco, or every other colonisation event. where, each and every time, women started as merchandise.
18:59 mircea_popescu hanbot can you read dead languages ? if not, why not ?
18:59 hanbot "this guy sucks" vs "this guy was demonstrably awesome and got hit by the suckray"
18:59 asciilifeform hanbot: i was defending this pov for past 2hrs, apparently to quite deaf ears.
19:00 asciilifeform phf: the b00k sucked in ways that are difficult to even put into words.
19:00 hanbot mircea_popescu depends on what exactly you mean by "read". it's not the case that i can't extract any value from them. it's certainly the case i wouldn't wager i wholly comprehend. and whatever's in between i'm not sure i'd call "meaningless"
19:00 trinque but, the value of his past statements does not mean they are necessarily part of "the wot"
19:01 asciilifeform somehow stephenson absorbed every possible poison from reddit etc. in past few years.
19:01 mircea_popescu so were bellbottoms the suck, or demonstrably awesome but hit by suck ray ?
19:01 hanbot lol. depends what fashion mavens, if any, one listens to.
19:02 mircea_popescu the problem of interpreting structures of meaning without survivors is not trivial. which is why i said inept historian - the monumental tasks more often attract the idiots who don't comprehend scale than actually talented people who can take bites of reality the size of the moon.
19:03 asciilifeform can't speak for others, generally i like to be in the business of supplying moon biters, but also would not mind giving idiots gigantic guns with which to shoot themselves.
19:03 mircea_popescu in any case - merchants, always of the strict practical persuasion, have no use for them ; and most of the "history" ie, retellings they produce is speculative.
19:03 asciilifeform merchants - for good or ill - live in the 'now'.
19:03 asciilifeform which is how they end up behaving like plankton, and living and dying with the tide.
19:04 mircea_popescu something like that. it's a little complicated, because there is some transcendence even in trade.
19:04 mircea_popescu ie, it's fully a liberal profession. (in some readings, a liberal profession is one where the sufficiently skilled practitioner eventually meets god.)
19:05 mircea_popescu o look phf, i can't link to the story of turbulent flow BECAUSE ITS NOT IN YOUR LOGS!11
19:05 asciilifeform the one with von karman ??
19:05 mircea_popescu the one.
19:06 asciilifeform it isn't, fwiw, in kako's either.
19:06 mircea_popescu darn. did we hallucinate this then ?
19:06 asciilifeform it may have been in a mircea_popescu-asciilifeform pmfest
19:06 phf (it's a comment about lack of pre-kako logs in btcbase perhaps)
19:06 mircea_popescu im damned sure it was in the chan.
19:07 asciilifeform iirc the retelling i am familiar with is due to uncle al.
19:08 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-19#567906
19:08 a111 Logged on 2014-03-19 19:04 asciilifeform: and, finally, his moment arrived! von Kármán surrendered his orange ticket, took a deep breath, and said, "God, explain turbulence." Theodore von Kármán spent the rest of eternity burning in Hell.'
19:08 asciilifeform ^
19:08 mircea_popescu aha! ahahaha!
19:08 mircea_popescu sorry phf false alarm :)
19:08 asciilifeform not found on account of orcacola!
19:08 mircea_popescu no, i actually searched for "turbulent flow" as opposed to "turbulence"
19:08 asciilifeform бнопня вхрюк!
19:11 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576571 << "with keys, not necessarily by keys" ehehe. sometimes i'm rather grateful i'm right here to know wtf i meant by stuff i said. ye know, hanbot ? :D
19:11 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 20:05 trinque: I am still waiting to hear why I shouldn't just rely on freenode's auth system to process ratings
19:13 hanbot >D
19:19 asciilifeform meanwhile, so i get a crate with the infamous 'lattice ice' fpga. and go and set up the OPEN SORES!!!11111!!!! toolchain. and lo and behold, it not only bristles with CODE OF CUNTDOCT!!111 etc., but... won't even build
19:19 mircea_popescu lol at beating danielpbarron gets in logs. dat trinque dude packs some punch does he.
19:19 asciilifeform because wants 'clang'
19:19 asciilifeform and llvm
19:20 mircea_popescu mind pasting the code ?
19:20 asciilifeform http://www.clifford.at/icestorm << subj
19:20 mircea_popescu of conduct i mean.
19:20 asciilifeform aite,1s
19:20 asciilifeform https://github.com/cliffordwolf/icestorm/blob/master/CodeOfConduct
19:21 mircea_popescu oh it's for them. i thought they had one for the luser lol. aaanyway, "The use of sexualized language or imagery and unwelcome sexual attention or advances" << epic shit; i hope this spreads.
19:22 * mircea_popescu chuckles at his own pun.
19:23 asciilifeform thing is a MASSIVE megaturd also.
19:24 asciilifeform ~100M of src.
19:24 asciilifeform when all added up.
19:24 mircea_popescu that fits in a fpga ?!
19:24 asciilifeform no!
19:24 BingoBoingo From the local police blotter: "Five juveniles, a 9-year-old boy, a 10-year-old boy, two 11-year-old boys, and a 10-year-old girl, all of Highland, were charged with destroying property for allegedly breaking light bulbs on Christmas displays belonging to the city"
19:24 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: it's the verilog compiler.
19:24 mircea_popescu ah the toolchain
19:26 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576609 << well, logs are one thing, not quite same as ratings.
19:26 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 20:17 trinque: the fact is preserved that he who had this key said X
19:27 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576829 << https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=V6_oEmG7DzU
19:27 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 22:34 ben_vulpes: boats, huh. /me smacks self
19:28 asciilifeform and holy shit it is annoying, i will have to make entirely new box to run that thing on.
19:30 asciilifeform literally not a single one of my active gentoo boxes will 'emerge' clang...
19:30 asciilifeform they all get mired in circular dependency hell.
19:31 asciilifeform i will point out that, for all of the horror of the 100% closed and ~15 GB (yes) mass of the xilinx dev chain, it runs on ANY LINUX BOX
19:32 asciilifeform nor does it ask to become root, nor does it ask you to fuck with your global compiler set
19:34 asciilifeform oh and as if this were not enough, 'icestorm' wants also:
19:34 asciilifeform python3
19:36 shinohai ewww
~ 50 minutes ~
20:26 shinohai Life imitates art: http://archive.is/pg5B6
↖
20:35 phf http://btcbase.org/log/2016-09-28#1549612 << so normal action is ^AACTION ... ^A, turns that when the line is too long it gets cut off (which is normal behavior) but in case of action none of client seem to do the regular split, meanwhile the irc server cutsoff terminating ^A, which breaks most parsers (including mine)
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20:35 a111 Logged on 2016-09-28 08:17 Framedragger: aha, i wonder if the sending irc client encoded msg in some strange charset, and ACTION was *not* technically the first set of characters in that message, from point of view of znc.
20:36 phf in case of znc you get the wonky ^ACTION ... lines
20:44 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/935C281E93290085CEF5E89EA683BF22ADF83017C0C76A563E494485929B1BFB << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 2169...8033 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '195.225.241.126 (ssh-rsa key from 195.225.241.126 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown DE)
20:44 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/678090924806DAD56D7DC5111D33E4B7E22C62E7D43813D17ED89BB06ECD4CDE << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 2515...0321 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '198.102.73.67 (ssh-rsa key from 198.102.73.67 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (blacklist.day.org. US)
20:46 ben_vulpes deploying major rewrite of mimisbrunnr.
20:48 ben_vulpes and back
20:51 ben_vulpes rewriting things is my fave. giant pile of ones own poop to shovel, and at the end of the day nothing should have changed as far as non codemonkeys can tell.
20:54 * phf 0 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 1 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 2 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 3 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 4 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 5 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 6 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 7 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 8 a b c d e f g h i j k l
20:56 asciilifeform phf: test pattern?
20:57 phf yeah, but it's not giving me expected result :/
21:00 phf asciilifeform: actually is the last letter in that pattern l or m?
21:00 ben_vulpes i see an l
21:00 asciilifeform l
21:00 phf kk
21:02 phf ah no there yo go http://log.mkj.lt/trilema/20161203/#74
21:02 scriba Logged on 2016-12-03: [01:54:50] <phf> ACTION 0 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 1 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 2 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 3 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 4 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 5 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 6 a b c d e f g h i j k l m
21:02 scriba n o p q r s t u v w x y z 7 a b c d e f g h i j k l m n o p q r s t u v w x y z 8 a b c d e f g h i j k l
~ 29 minutes ~
21:31 ben_vulpes http://cascadianhacker.com/ad-hoc-routing-another-benefit-to-life-in-the-republic?preview=true&preview_id=235&preview_nonce=46dc0db338#comment-56 << /me waves at nubbins`
21:33 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: prolly ol' kako
21:34 asciilifeform ( d00d lives in a parallel world where , e.g., mpex is dead, and ready to tell any old-timer randomly reappearing in his chan - as they sometimes do - that it vanished long ago, etc )
21:36 shinohai !~btc.blocks 400000
21:36 jhvh1 http://mimisbrunnr.cascadianhacker.com/blocks/400000
21:36 shinohai fixed ben_vulpes
21:36 ben_vulpes neato shinohai
21:36 ben_vulpes consider plugging mimisbrunnr into tslb?
21:36 * ben_vulpes off, ride is here
21:41 phf asciilifeform: it's in line with what he said his goals were "to warn people"
21:43 phf i checked b-a log because somebody mentioned activity, a few weeks ago and it's literally the same conversation. i remember he tried directly intervening, "warning" cockli guy i think, and cockli's reaction was "you seem like a crazy dude with an agenda", but i guess a strategy of "mpex is long gong and nobody heard from mp" probably works better
21:51 jurov O.o mpex isn't dead?
21:53 phf nice try
22:02 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576646 << was that the gossipd one ?
22:02 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 20:31 phf: that was the conclusion of the thread last time we had this conversation, yes
22:03 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576653 << the way i have this sketched in my head is that you ~as your avatar~ have a presence that's distinct from you ~as your freenode nick~.
22:03 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 20:35 danielpbarron: i mean i'm not gonna put my key on a networked machine
22:04 mircea_popescu you will have to have ~a~ key online as a matter of course for the client to connect ; but it doesn't have to be THE key in any sense.
22:11 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576658 << the way i intend THAT to work is that client connects to server, by sending encrypted magic packet which includes its fp ; if server has that fp it sends challenge string and logs in the player ; if server has not that fp it sends challenge string and proceeds ot character creation. nice and streamlined.
22:11 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 20:35 danielpbarron: so i assumed people would still have to resister their actual key with the bot prior to getting their eulora account
22:16 mircea_popescu basically this will include a (hopefully improved) rsa implementation as part of the client. the details still very much in air.
22:19 mircea_popescu one particular angle would be that if we generate republic-rsa keys (see http://btcbase.org/log/2016-08-18#1524210 eg) as opposed to koch-rsa keys then yes eulora server will have to dump its privately maintained wot to deedbot periodically ; but on the upside we get very cheap transition to the new format while maintaining all the backwards compatibility one could want.
22:19 a111 Logged on 2016-08-18 12:32 mircea_popescu: asciilifeform since we're on this btw, the way i want tmsr-rsa key generation to work is as follows : a contains a number of entropy bytes specified by user in tmsr-rsa.conf read whenever tmsr-rsa.conf specifies (such as urandom); b contains a base-tmsr string specified by user. c = base-tmsr(a).b ; p = nextprime(cut(sha512(c),257)) ; process is repeated for q = nextprime (cut(sha512(c'),258));
22:19 mircea_popescu and we can have nice things such as fixed time keygen, such as "key generation takes 24 hours - come back tomorrow".
22:28 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576690 << too many ifs ; and for that matter the problem of "what to do with the intestate" is unsolvable in the general sense. the best approach is for the man to write a fucking testament already. there's deedbot for this purpose, it is wrong to you know, have an ethereum-powered mechanism to decide FOR gauss what of the coffin liners should be rescued.
22:28 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 20:46 asciilifeform: phf: if pubkey is preserved, and privkey of dead man -- well-destroyed, suddenly the 'donation of constantine' problem evaporates.
22:30 mod6 just finished catching up on mega-log
22:31 mircea_popescu had fun ?
22:31 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576713 << i read it at the time. i didn't like it among other things because it exhibits unbounded complexity. iirc we discussed this briefly back then.
22:31 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 20:53 asciilifeform: trinque: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1545 << oblig
22:33 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> and herein included - all my ratings. you can not at some point come and say "X scammed me of a btc and you had him rated +1 therefore you owe me some cents" << while reading, this is what I was thinking too. We've seen many times where someone reputable has a positive rating for X, and then later X scams out. These ratings can't act as a guarantee; which would place the rater in some leg
22:33 mod6 al jeopardy.
22:33 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576722 << and what if he thought your grandmother was sexy ?
22:33 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 20:57 trinque: if my dead grandfather hated someone, I would most certainly care about that given that he was a man I respected.
22:33 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/935C281E93290085CEF5E89EA683BF22ADF83017C0C76A563E494485929B1BFB << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1370...7267 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '195.225.241.126 (ssh-rsa key from 195.225.241.126 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (Unknown DE)
22:33 deedbot http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/678090924806DAD56D7DC5111D33E4B7E22C62E7D43813D17ED89BB06ECD4CDE << Recent Phuctorings. - Phuctored: 1560...2357 divides RSA Moduli belonging to '198.102.73.67 (ssh-rsa key from 198.102.73.67 (13-14 June 2016 extraction) for Phuctor import. Ask asciilifeform or framedragger on Freenode, or email fd at mkj dot lt) <ssh...lt>; ' (blacklist.day.org. US)
22:34 mircea_popescu mod6 not only that, but there's a lot of flexibility required in actual human intercourse. "x is a great drunk and a miserable father, so has - from daughter and + from me. i'm friends with the daughter and we fuck occasionally. problem ?"
22:34 mircea_popescu the wot isn't a computable graph. i mean it's drawable, obviously, and the drawing's not futile, but just because the machine can draw it dun mean the machine grasps it.
22:35 mod6 yeah, i see.
22:35 mod6 this reminds me of this line in your unicode paper.
22:36 mircea_popescu and ironically i can give a negative evaluation in spite of my positive rating - other lady friend asks me about having kids with the guy - i'll tell her about daugther ; and if the daughter's not a total futz, if her drinking friend asks about dad he'll get a + notwithstanding he's an asshole. or maybe won't, depending on how much of an asshole he is generally. but there's the ambiguity.
22:37 mod6 yeah.
22:38 mod6 i get trinque's worry; that he'll wake up and find his wallet emptied out; and he wants a pill against that. the preposed solution is fine for that. but signed ratings is not the answer imho.
22:38 mircea_popescu i think actually he was perfectly satisfied with what we arrived at.
↖
22:39 mod6 it's even happened to me. i rated a guy with positive rating, he didn't scam me at all. but he apparently scammed some other people.
22:39 mod6 should I be hung up by my heels for that?
22:39 mircea_popescu there's the case of aethero, perhaps the best illustration of this. guy had a top 10 rating by any abstract measurement, lots of ratings from many people.
22:40 mod6 especially when my transcation happened before his other "scammy" dealings
↖
22:40 mircea_popescu and of course there's the case of pirate, which hanbot actually analysed at length on the forum years ago, in retort to some idiot going "o see, the wot doesn't work, pirate had high rating"
22:40 mircea_popescu yes, he had a high rating consisting of 500 idiots going "he doubled my moneyz!!!"
22:40 mircea_popescu hurr.
22:40 mod6 yeah.
22:41 mod6 lol seen it all.
22:44 mod6 btw, lol @ washitistan
22:44 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576727 << no, actually it isn't. the signed V element is actually a deed ; it gets maintained by an alternative mechanism than the deeds because we're still working with all this shit and trying to figure it out. but fundamentally, it is a deed not a rating.
22:44 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 20:58 asciilifeform: it is an instance of same material.
22:44 mircea_popescu mod6 :p
22:47 mod6 I agree there too. When you sign a vpatch, you're saying, "I, have read (or wrote) this, and I place my seal upon it as it is correct and right." Not, "mod6 wrote this thing, I rate him a '+1 Cool Guy' for effort."
22:48 mircea_popescu yeah srsly
22:49 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576744 << this i think is entirely undisputed.
22:49 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 21:01 asciilifeform: phf: in my cosmography, a 'rater' is a pubkey
22:50 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576753 << this is not altogether a bad idea, except of course for the fact that the derps aren't in the wot.
22:50 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 21:05 asciilifeform: but picture , for instance, if phuctor bot rated keys that were phuctored, in the moment of.
22:50 mircea_popescu so kinda too much effort for ~no payout.
22:52 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576770 << except this is how memory works - shoddy computing infrastructure is how you forget.
22:52 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 21:20 trinque: if it is better to forget, lets make that explicit. when/why, and not just as an artifact of being built on shoddy computing infrastructure.
22:54 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-02#1576781 << actually, it IS the present trinque, and must be. in order to voice itself, the guy named trinque must talk to deedbot, and reply with the right challenge. so yes we forced the shitty freenode name system into a very strong thing.
22:54 a111 Logged on 2016-12-02 21:31 trinque: something else comes to mind; there exists in our logs a person named trinque who is not the present trinque
22:55 mircea_popescu if you stop showing up, and some other dude for some reason ends up with your nick, such as through asking freenode for it say, he won't be able to voice himself - which encourages him to get a "fresh" nick.
22:55 mircea_popescu so the whole scheme fails correctly.
22:56 asciilifeform i thought he was referring to a pre- +m trinque
22:56 asciilifeform at some point in prehistory
22:56 trinque no, was referring to myself with different opinions
22:56 asciilifeform aah
22:56 * asciilifeform looked for one, in vain, in ancient l0gz
22:56 mod6 i thought also that i remembered some guy who tried to hijack your nick or something.
22:56 mod6 back in like '13
22:57 trinque point was that there was permanent history in logs, ephemerality in ratings, but we've since discussed that distinction at length.
22:58 mod6 So, changing subjects for a minute... I have these lamport battle-ready pub/priv keys made.
22:59 mod6 I should clearsign the pubkey with my pgp-pubkey and deedbot this, aha?
22:59 asciilifeform mod6: seems like the thing to do , neh ?
22:59 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-03#1577133 << aha, I am.
22:59 a111 Logged on 2016-12-03 03:38 mircea_popescu: i think actually he was perfectly satisfied with what we arrived at.
23:00 mod6 Yah, and then should I need it, I can use the lamport priv key to send a message "hey, it's mod6. my new pgpkey fp is: ABCDEF1234567890..."
23:00 mod6 right?
23:00 mircea_popescu yeah, there's gonna be a bit of overlap/restating agreement as i go through the whole pile. sorry bout the department of redundancy department.
23:01 mircea_popescu but re the whole "each pope gets fisherman ring - and it is destroyed on death" alf concern - yes, having one's privkeys destroyed properly is pretty much the only worldly charge of men.
23:02 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-03#1577137 << evaluating people based on their ~ratings~ is imho 'coarse error in pilotage'
23:02 a111 Logged on 2016-12-03 03:40 mod6: especially when my transcation happened before his other "scammy" dealings
23:02 asciilifeform (their ratings of others)
23:03 mircea_popescu so if some guy shows up and negrates me you derive no information from this ?
23:03 mod6 i agree, but it tends to happen. that still doesn't take away that my rating is ~not~ a guarantee of anything.
23:04 mircea_popescu suppose what's his face with the blog shows up, +rates koch and that other idiot, and -rates you and mod6
23:04 mircea_popescu am i to not infer nuttin ?
23:04 asciilifeform maybe he just like folx without a's or 6's in their name.
23:04 asciilifeform *likes
23:04 mod6 haha
23:05 mircea_popescu granted, maybe.\
23:05 mircea_popescu more generally, maybe he's confused, maybe he's unhinged, maybe he's an asshole, but there's no bright mind promise in there.
23:05 mod6 i beleive that mentally, when you read a rating, you grok this text on some level, which invokes some type of response. i can be ignored, sure, but it happened never the less.
23:08 mircea_popescu mod6 i confess i've not gotten my head altogether around the lamport thing.
23:08 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: what part did not make immediate sense ?
23:08 asciilifeform it's world's simplest pubkey sig scheme
23:09 asciilifeform and is provably as strong as your hash (can be any hash you like)
23:09 asciilifeform (to break n-bit lamportron, you need n collisions AT ONCE)
23:09 mircea_popescu no no, it makes sense in what it is. its implications though, are far reaching. even something as simple as "how strong is your hash"
23:10 asciilifeform i'll point out that i can forge , e.g., gpg signature from mircea_popescu if i find ONE collision
23:10 mircea_popescu it's no criticism whatsoever, it's confession. i'm working on it.
23:10 asciilifeform http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1762 << link for anyone who has nfi what is this thread.
23:10 mircea_popescu asciilifeform you mean, "if i find aes collision, i can replace signed text with (longer) signed text" ?
23:11 mod6 since it's confession time: I read asciilifeform's post probably 5 times total. Following through all of the steps at least 2x to get the hang of what was going on there, and reviewing the code.
23:11 asciilifeform sha512 collision
23:11 mircea_popescu aha right.
23:11 mircea_popescu still, it'd be pretty evident.
23:11 asciilifeform or, alternatively, a much easier sha1 collision, in which case i only fool ~all extant gpg clients~ but not a d00d with magnifying glass actually multiplying out the rsa
23:12 mircea_popescu "o look, mp often signs 85 kb strings of random letters"
23:12 mod6 I like what it does, and it seems to make sense in the case where I might need this one single time. To prevent against cryptographic death, I can generate this key pair, sign it with my PGP key, and then send a one time message of my new PGP key fp to save me from hitting the ground.
23:12 asciilifeform mod6: the parachute isn't risk-free, if you hid it somewhere where enemy may turn it up, it can be worse than useless
23:13 mircea_popescu ^
23:13 mircea_popescu as far as you know... "the implications" go.
23:13 asciilifeform fwiw i thought this was quite clear.
23:13 mircea_popescu certainly.
23:13 mod6 yeah, all those considerations are valid too asciilifeform
23:13 asciilifeform has same downfall as keeping a spare pgp key a la mircea_popescu's
23:14 mircea_popescu well yes, the advantage being you don't have to know aforehand what you intend to use
23:14 asciilifeform probably i ought to have called it a cryptographic ejection seat
23:14 mod6 It's weight of responsibility of protecting yet another key, or the possibility of being locked out of heaven.
23:15 asciilifeform mod6: lamportron is not merely 'spare key' but to ensure against a specific scenario, rsacalypse
23:16 asciilifeform i delved into subj seriously for first time after the close call in august
23:16 mod6 and we've seen how close the rsacalypse. i feel like we were right there a few months back.
23:16 mod6 yes. indeed.
23:16 asciilifeform picture if i ~had~ found that i can derive everybody's 1.4.10 priv.
23:16 mircea_popescu asciilifeform in my mind this drove the reaction of alt-rsa in eulora, for instance.
23:17 asciilifeform right
23:19 mod6 !!deed http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/GotIs/?raw=true
23:20 deedbot accepted: 1
23:21 mircea_popescu you know it's not a bad idea ot have recitals for these things.
23:21 mircea_popescu "here is so and so made for this and that" etc.
23:23 mod6 ah, shit. i guess i agree. maybe I should have put a line in the top of that thing.
23:24 mircea_popescu remember for next time.
23:24 mod6 fair enough, i can just throw in another i suppose.
23:24 asciilifeform nono 1s
23:24 mod6 aight, will remember for next time though.
23:25 asciilifeform !!deed http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/5r5gk/?raw=true
23:25 deedbot accepted: 1
23:26 asciilifeform now gotta test, does this verify-mod6 after stripped of asciilifeform's pgpsig ?
23:27 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-03#1577071 << bwahaha
23:27 a111 Logged on 2016-12-03 01:26 shinohai: Life imitates art: http://archive.is/pg5B6
23:29 mod6 asciilifeform: your sig verifies, mine does not, unless you remove the '- ' infront of the '------' lines
23:29 mod6 then it does verify.
23:35 mod6 you are backing us away from "number of seconds from 'midnight' of rsacalypse" one step at a time. first lamport, then FUCKGOATS, each step helps.
↖
23:36 mod6 so, thanks for all your efforts. i appreciate it.
23:36 trinque pretty sure --decrypt unwraps those
23:36 trinque on signed material
23:36 mircea_popescu in other lulz : supermax prison in colorado holds among the child eaters &c a 70yo gent who for some reason plead guilty to "being a cuban agent for 30 years", two years after retiring from his job and three years after saying that the us-uk "special relationship" is a joke on the us side.
23:36 mod6 lemme try that trinque
23:37 asciilifeform did they put the d00d who was picked up for 'child pr0n' the day he demonstrated the glock-on-quadcopter ?
↖
23:37 asciilifeform in same prison
23:37 mircea_popescu prolly diff one.
23:38 mod6 trinque: that does fix that ya.
23:38 mircea_popescu asciilifeform bonus points - got caught by... undercover operation! fancy this wonder.
23:41 trinque http://btcbase.org/log/2016-12-03#1577240 << oblig https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7sXPmz9b4lM
23:41 a111 Logged on 2016-12-03 04:35 mod6: you are backing us away from "number of seconds from 'midnight' of rsacalypse" one step at a time. first lamport, then FUCKGOATS, each step helps.
23:53 mod6 ah iron maiden
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