Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2016-07-12 | 2016-07-14 → ↓
00:05 * mircea_popescu wonders at this novel tendency of us military types to call traditional warfare "kinetic".
00:05 mircea_popescu what the fuck are these people thinking ? they're seeing themselves as some sort of 17th century naval artillery dudes, firing kugels at one another ? there's nothing kinetic about weapons in use today, they're all thermic.
00:06 mircea_popescu even the fucking nukes are thermic weapons. what kinetic ?
00:10 Joshua-I rail guns? lol
00:10 mircea_popescu firing what, greatcoat buttons ?
00:10 Joshua-I Pretty kinetic until they're not
00:10 mircea_popescu kinetic usually denotes macroscopic moving items not fucking ions
00:12 Joshua-I def. macro?
00:12 mircea_popescu well you know, large enough to not have to apply qm.
00:12 mircea_popescu in fairness i guess they are researching rail guns to fire bullet-like items
00:23 mats it sounds kewl
00:23 mircea_popescu i guess that's as good a reason as any
00:23 mircea_popescu has the added benefit that it makes me think they have no fucking idea what they're talking about.
00:24 mats i wonder about the feasibility of railgun-assisted orbital launches
00:24 mircea_popescu mats you're not the first. that thing's been a solution in search of a problem since ~1916.
00:24 mircea_popescu it dun work worth a shit, electromagnetism is a self-limiting disease so to speak, but hey.
00:25 ben_vulpes not to mention the accelerations involved make it more or less entirely impractical for anything other than raw materials.
00:25 mircea_popescu 100g and over was it ?
00:26 ben_vulpes at that point, you may as well save on fab and engineering costs and submerge a hydrogen gun right under the water
00:26 mats being able to hurl a rock at enormous speeds over the horizon seems like a useful capability
00:26 mircea_popescu anyway, iirc us navy launched a breadbox sized item at about 10km/s or somesuch. cost a little more than a littoral com-sunkship.
00:26 ben_vulpes bonus, you can point the latter. not so much for either the cannon or railgun.
00:26 ben_vulpes mats: sure, but how do rockets not solve this better and more cheaply
00:26 mats its a solution to certain tactical problems, but none in the civilian arena
00:26 mircea_popescu none in the physical area, more like it.
00:27 ben_vulpes the *single best bet* on orbital advances in my lifetime is the mach-5 airbreather.
00:27 mircea_popescu not much air in useful orbit is there ?
00:28 mats ben_vulpes: well, they tend to be unguided
00:28 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: once it leaves compressible atmo, it cuts over to internal o2 supply fed directly into the *same* combustion chambers.
00:28 ben_vulpes ssto
00:28 mats but idk anything about rocketry, so i'll stop here
00:28 ben_vulpes mats: why would one want an unguided projectile?
00:29 mircea_popescu sounds like some pretty intense engineering required.
00:29 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: and how.
00:29 ben_vulpes the only new part of the whole system is the precooler to take air at mach5 and cool it without frosting everything over.
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00:29 mats i suppose the real advantage would be the raw kinetic energy being delivered
00:30 ben_vulpes /maybe/
00:30 ben_vulpes drag is proportional to v^2
00:30 mats i wonder how useful it is as a bunker buster
00:30 ben_vulpes the further away your target is, the less useful the railgun and the more useful the classic icbm.
00:30 ben_vulpes ramjet if you want to stay low.
00:30 ben_vulpes (less useful because a) drag losses and b) accuracy)
00:31 ben_vulpes but like cold fusion, railguns keep usg contractors in the procurement pipeline.
00:31 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502295 << this is just about not happening. mass conserves, water is stable. whatcha gonna do, add urea, make lsd in flight ?
00:31 a111 Logged on 2016-07-13 04:29 ben_vulpes: the only new part of the whole system is the precooler to take air at mach5 and cool it without frosting everything over.
00:32 ben_vulpes add glycol, drop the freezing point.
00:32 mats you've got him now, he's going to talk about rockets for hours
00:32 mircea_popescu mats it's very hard to beat plain and simple fire-air bombs. you gotta put electricity through coils to make the projectile go magnetically, electricity which you got from a combustion generator in the first place.you're about five transforms away, might as well just put the same gasoline in a bottle and throw it at the enemy.
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00:33 asciilifeform iirc attraction of railgun was : shooting at ~incoming~ rockets etc
00:33 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes it's a simple problem of mass conservation though. if your compression factor is 1:10, say, and you burn 1 ton of fuel, you then therefore get a cubic kilometer worth of air, which will contain a ton and a half of water, what do you do with it. it doesn't burn, it doesn't go away. nowwut.
00:33 ben_vulpes mats: rude
00:33 asciilifeform but go, aim
00:34 mircea_popescu asciilifeform that's pretty insane seeing how rocket can maneuver.
00:34 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: turns to steam helps with isp
00:34 ben_vulpes srsly this is kindergarten rocket chem
00:34 ben_vulpes see also peroxide motors
00:34 mircea_popescu i never heard of an aspiring rocket.
00:35 ben_vulpes "horatio"
00:35 asciilifeform ramjet?
00:35 mircea_popescu nor for that matter of a water-oxidizer mix
00:35 ben_vulpes no silly it's not /water-oxidiser/
00:35 ben_vulpes it's internal h2 plus ambient air
00:35 mircea_popescu $google horatio the rocket
00:35 deedbot http://www.iwhistory.org.uk/rockets/ << John Dennett: Isle of Wight Rocket Man | http://www.csifiles.com/reviews/csi/no_mans_land.shtml << CSI Files - CSI: Miami--'No Man's Land' | http://www.horatiotodds.com/dining/ << Dining — Horatio Todd's
00:35 ben_vulpes $google more things under heaven and earth
00:35 deedbot http://www.shakespeare-online.com/quickquotes/quickquotehamletdreamt.html << There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio | http://www.enotes.com/shakespeare-quotes/there-more-things-heaven-earth-horatio << There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio - Shakespeare ... | https://www.quora.com/Shakespeare-once-said-There-are-more-things-in-heaven-and-earth-Horatio-than-are-dreamt-of-in-your-philosophy-How-should-skeptics-best-address-this-ques
00:35 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes yes yes. the comparison of the engine to the rocket is flawed. because the rocket doesn't aspire [random gunk] from atmosphere.
00:36 mircea_popescu atmosphere contains water. this is a problem, because mass.
00:36 ben_vulpes mass in rocket exhaust is a /good thing/ ffs.
00:36 asciilifeform the n2 is also not good for much
00:36 mircea_popescu yes, if you get it to go there. yes.
00:37 ben_vulpes the only reason is because von braun was a savage.
00:37 mircea_popescu but your problem was that it dun wanna go, it wanna freeze over your assemblages
00:37 ben_vulpes it wants to freeze over the intercooler hooked to the h2.
00:37 ben_vulpes keep it from doing that, you have cold, high pressure ambient gas you can dump into a steady state reaction chamber.
00:38 mircea_popescu werll for that money, keep gas from growing fat after marriage, you got desktop cold fusion.
00:38 ben_vulpes and so long as there is o2, it *will* burn.
00:40 ben_vulpes so, keep water from precipitating out of the gas coming in, cool it rapidly by dumping the heat into the h2, react h2 and o2 (and yes, some h2o), you have an air-breathing rocket that (yes, nominally) can operate in atmosphere with out consuming onboard o2 all the way up to mach 5.
00:40 ben_vulpes leave atmo, cut over to internal fuel supply.
00:40 mircea_popescu it's a fine theory, now show me the item.
00:40 ben_vulpes if it works (and what, the brits can't do anything, clearly), it's the only improvement with legs over the classic rocket.
00:41 mircea_popescu i'll grant that it has more chances of being useful than the coil gun ; which isn't saying much.
00:41 ben_vulpes that's all i'm saying.
00:41 mircea_popescu :)))
00:41 ben_vulpes high stair!
00:42 mircea_popescu btw, you folks know teh epic bill cosby series on parenting ?
00:42 ben_vulpes "chocolate cake!"
00:42 mircea_popescu right.
00:42 mircea_popescu chocolate cake and braindamage.
00:43 mircea_popescu also in the news http://www.engrish.com/wp-content/uploads//2015/12/once-it-eats.jpg
00:45 ben_vulpes what, for the novice parents, is the braindamage in cosby's routine?
00:46 * ben_vulpes has not heard the thing since his youth. on vinyl!
00:47 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502308 << to put numbers on this : as it recently came out in debate with alf, diesel generators get ~40% efficiency if large enough (closer to my guess than yours! ha-HA!) ; depending on the coil design the resulting electricity will be transferred to projectile somewhere around 1 to 5% efficiency. to go higher air-cored assemblages are excluded because of the high reluctance of the damned
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00:47 a111 Logged on 2016-07-13 04:32 mircea_popescu: mats it's very hard to beat plain and simple fire-air bombs. you gotta put electricity through coils to make the projectile go magnetically, electricity which you got from a combustion generator in the first place.you're about five transforms away, might as well just put the same gasoline in a bottle and throw it at the enemy.
00:47 mircea_popescu thing - and proper cored items are way the fuck too expensive to be destroyed over three firings.
00:47 mircea_popescu by and large for every 100 J worth of gas you're putting in, you're getting out ~1J of ~muzzle velocity~. then as ben_vulpes pointed out correctly you lose most of this to air friction (longer range ? MUCH MORE FRICTION!), so you deliver maybe 1kJ or 2 per MJ expended.
00:48 mircea_popescu if you just dump the fuel on enemy, you get 500x bang for the buck. eventually you cook him, through whatever bunker. it's why there's no bunkers in the sun.
00:48 mircea_popescu ben_vulpes he says the words, "because kids have brain damage".
00:49 ben_vulpes aha yes!
00:49 ben_vulpes "it's BRAIN DAMAGE!!!1"
00:49 mircea_popescu aha.
00:49 mats there is the benefit of a nuclear reactor driving the gun
00:50 mats i see your point though
00:50 mircea_popescu oh and the caper : obviously the coil is a lc oscillator. the remainder 95 to 99% energy doesn't simply disappear. it COMES BACK in the circuit. going... the other way.
00:50 mircea_popescu mats yeah, in a post-oil world all sorts of things might make more sense.
00:51 mats what do you mean by post-oil
00:51 mats something better or scarcity?
00:51 mircea_popescu as in, if there's no oil.
00:52 mircea_popescu eh, there's not ever going to be something better.
00:52 mircea_popescu much like the current "something better" wall materials kids kick holes into aren't better than brick and concrete. even if some claim otherwise.
00:55 mircea_popescu but otherwise - i have here this battery, contained in a thin PET cover, ready to do ~1,2 MJ at my command. go, construct battery, compressed coil, box of covenant or lavey's teeth assemblage that can do a mj and fit in a gallon.
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00:56 mircea_popescu we'll discuss stability afterwards, as a sign of me not thinking i'll have to.
01:00 Joshua-I this?
01:00 mircea_popescu it's just a bucket of gasoline.
01:02 Joshua-I Must be a big bucket
01:03 mircea_popescu one gallon.
01:03 Joshua-I Spoke too soon v. surprised
01:03 ben_vulpes gasoline's like 40 Mj/kg
01:03 mircea_popescu lol like 5 trillion!11
01:04 ben_vulpes today we learn that mircea_popescu has tiny bukkits
01:04 mircea_popescu it's a puke bucket.
01:04 ben_vulpes ha!
01:04 Joshua-I Puke in MJ plz
01:04 mircea_popescu i have many types of buckets.
01:04 ben_vulpes i witnesesd a feller at burning man receive the moniker of 'princess buckets' one time.
01:05 mircea_popescu i even have a 6 ounce, two-man bukkake bukket.
01:05 Joshua-I Two man? Sounds too intimate
01:05 ben_vulpes i strolled out of my tent at ~9a to him drinking directly from the bottle. said, "i'm drunk! what do you think about that?" "psh, you're nowhere near drunk"
01:05 mircea_popescu well, a one man bukkake's just called "i don't want kids" neh ?
01:06 ben_vulpes two more hours of that, i leave to go toodle around on vehicles on the desert. come back, he's asleep on the couch, head deep in five gallons of orange.
01:06 mircea_popescu ew
01:06 ben_vulpes pulls his head out, whines plaintively, "may i have another bucket please?"
01:06 Joshua-I Orange?
01:06 ben_vulpes "another bucket?! what are you a princess?"
01:06 Joshua-I Oh
01:06 ben_vulpes "PRINCESS BUCKETS!"
01:06 mircea_popescu lmao
01:06 Joshua-I My brain is wacked out tn lol
01:06 mircea_popescu this sounds just like the shittier fraternity on campus.
01:07 ben_vulpes Joshua-I: i did not know that tungsten was psychoactive
01:07 mircea_popescu one man's tonite's another man's wolfram
01:07 ben_vulpes i didn't *make* him drink
01:07 ben_vulpes i just told him he wasn't drunk yet.
01:07 mircea_popescu tort law of portland begs to differ!
01:07 mats you devil you
01:08 Joshua-I Well it sounds pretty tame for burning man
01:08 ben_vulpes Joshua-I: well yes, i'm sharing it.
01:09 mats mircea_popescu: on the matter of post-oil, i do wonder what the world would look like in 10, 100 years after cold fusion
01:09 mats i'm not gonna volunteer, but i think humans wanna get off this rock and thats not a terrible idea
01:09 mircea_popescu prolly every cavortess or w/e her name was living in hypercube houses
01:09 Joshua-I I hope it looks even more ridiculous than it does now
01:10 Joshua-I Absurdist capitalism will dominate!
01:10 mircea_popescu doing post-quantum computing reddit.
01:10 mats your pessimism is refreshing
01:11 mircea_popescu it's not pessimism just because i didn't vote for change!
01:11 mats alright alright
01:11 mircea_popescu anyway, i'm off to bed. take it lezzy.
01:11 Joshua-I peace
01:11 mats good idea
01:12 Joshua-I I will return to ebbits and curry
01:13 Joshua-I http://www.ebbits.net/strip/2013.01.28
~ 38 minutes ~
01:51 BingoBoingo "Taylor appeared at an arraignment Monday in St. Louis County Circuit Court, telling Judge Joseph Dueker that he wanted to represent himself “pro per.” The legal term to represent oneself is “pro se.” Dueker told him he didn’t know what “pro per” meant and gave Taylor until July 27 to decide how he will be represented."
02:01 deedbot [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 230213975110617197067377 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Stephen Domorod III (Stephen at Domorod dot Org) <stephen@domorod.org>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/CD894142C4313393598D2A7B35E2A61D9CD4C6ACC0214D508203C9CDA8A65195
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~ 5 hours ~
07:02 mircea_popescu this guy links the most retarded comics...
07:02 shinohai lel
07:02 shinohai I just don't get ebbits
07:04 mircea_popescu you mean other than "i want to make a comic and don't perceive i should invest into drawing or writing skills, whoever loves me loves for me!" ?
07:04 mircea_popescu it's the comic equivalent of a fat ugly woman that doesn't wash or ever shut up.
07:07 shinohai http://shop.heavymetal.com/shm/images/278.jpg
~ 15 minutes ~
07:22 mircea_popescu i guess
07:27 mircea_popescu mats hanbot http://trilema.com/2013/so-whos-running-the-courts-circus/#comment-118065 cheers!
07:28 mircea_popescu $rated mats
07:28 deedbot mircea_popescu rated mats 2 at 2015/04/07 21:29:49 << http://trilema.com/2013/so-whos-running-the-courts-circus/#comment-113478 ; helping people get pogos, stuff.
07:28 mircea_popescu coo.
~ 16 minutes ~
07:44 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-12#1502117 << myeah, maybe it's not even that much of a problem; just, lame..
07:44 a111 Logged on 2016-07-12 17:49 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-12#1502056 << this is what you get for sending ustards to college. they "adapt" what they read to the "practical needs" in their environment. problem ?
07:44 mircea_popescu quite lame.
07:46 mircea_popescu btw you looking into teh v ?
07:47 Framedragger mircea_popescu: not yet, and that's due to lack of time, and generally lazy vibes over the summer (a festival or two, reading books etc) i know i should take a careful look at v, and i dun want to botch it, hence terribly slow with it
07:47 mircea_popescu no prob. just didn't want for you to get teh idea i just said that to give you busywork or somesuch. the thing's actually important.
07:48 shinohai V'ify all the things
07:48 Framedragger this may sound like bait, but.... could you not just use signed commits in git, and enforce use of those commits, and use `git blame`? is the argument against this the usual "git is a shitload of code, best to start anew [and also without existing political associations re. github etc.]", or sth more than that?
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07:48 Framedragger mircea_popescu: yeah, acknowledged
07:48 mircea_popescu shinohai for srs, your wp eventually gets a v mode!
07:49 Framedragger ^ but re my q, i should first understand v...
07:49 mircea_popescu Framedragger as to your words, the political association of git is at best with linus & the linux folk, i dun see what it has to do with github anymore than sunsets have to do with bad photography. but as to the actual issue : on one hand there's a ton of code there ; on the other there's absent functionality.
07:50 mircea_popescu in such a situation we sometimes decide to hammer a source into usability (such as, bitcoin, eulora, etc). but just as often decide to write de novo. how exactly this decision is made is not exactly specified.
07:50 Framedragger regarding the association: previously i got the impression that you thought git and github are now being confused and hence best to get rid of git and start anew anyway. maybe wrong impression
07:50 shinohai Don't worry, v and t make github obsolete
07:50 mircea_popescu link ?
07:51 * mircea_popescu is always keen to discuss later interpretations of what he actually said at some point.
07:51 Framedragger how do i search for multiple words associated by OR, not AND? $s works for this but btcbase's search doesn't, right?
07:51 mircea_popescu it proved to be hands down the #1 most productive learning technique in the harem over the years. i expect it works universally.
07:52 mircea_popescu Framedragger "" gives literal matches, otherwise words are or'd together.
07:52 Framedragger aok
07:52 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=fuck+mother << mircea_popescu: "fuck your mother"
07:52 Framedragger searchin'
07:56 mircea_popescu and in other news, http://67.media.tumblr.com/eaa45c186f01e7a30c279a9234dff8a7/tumblr_nq3j82wF251sw3gf6o3_500.gif
07:56 Framedragger mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-05-20#1469423 fwiw but it's now much. i'm now convinced i had originally misinterpreted. at that point i was assuming that you had basically thrown out git in your mind as useless as it had been tainted with too strong an association with github. if that even makes sense.
07:56 a111 Logged on 2016-05-20 15:53 mircea_popescu: Framedragger actually, the process of creating github and then confusing git for github, aka embrace and extinguish / "rms-ing" is also amply discussed in teh logs :)
07:56 mircea_popescu :)
07:57 mircea_popescu makes perfect sense, which is why the process of searching etc is worthwhile.
07:58 Framedragger for shizzle
07:58 mircea_popescu trilema's even worse, there i have the time to elaborately bait people. here i'm stuck with much shorter intervals.
08:00 Framedragger heh, yeah, i see what you mean. trilema allows for more elaborate.. structures
08:01 mircea_popescu interpretation being just about the only art worth the time.
08:02 deedbot [Trilema] The humiliation intensifies - http://trilema.com/2016/the-humiliation-intensifies/
08:03 Framedragger heh. i listened to a weirdo almost-atonal musical piece yesterday by a friend who's doing sonology / electronic music (yeah such precise terms, i know). it was fkin great, lots of effort but worth it methinks. but then, the point is that this also counts as 'interpretation', possibly
08:03 Framedragger 'cause you do have to really follow and think about the concepts used in the thing if you want to enjoy it beyond the superficial-level "wow such pretty noise"
08:03 Framedragger and prolly retink them laters as you relisten etc
~ 54 minutes ~
08:58 mircea_popescu yeah. just, i'm generally too lazy for non-verbal arts.
~ 1 hours 12 minutes ~
10:11 danielpbarron $up Bigbootycutefeet
10:11 deedbot Bigbootycutefeet voiced for 30 minutes.
~ 58 minutes ~
11:09 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502371 << sorta why 'future with fusion' would still include synthetic liquid fuels (made, however inefficiently, from atmospheric co2 and h2 from water)
11:09 a111 Logged on 2016-07-13 04:55 mircea_popescu: but otherwise - i have here this battery, contained in a thin PET cover, ready to do ~1,2 MJ at my command. go, construct battery, compressed coil, box of covenant or lavey's teeth assemblage that can do a mj and fit in a gallon.
11:11 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502423 << mirrored crud
11:11 a111 Logged on 2016-07-13 06:01 deedbot: [Recent Phuctorings.] Phuctored: 230213975110617197067377 divides RSA Moduli belonging to 'Stephen Domorod III (Stephen at Domorod dot Org) <stephen@domorod.org>; ' - http://phuctor.nosuchlabs.com/gpgkey/CD894142C4313393598D2A7B35E2A61D9CD4C6ACC0214D508203C9CDA8A65195
11:12 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502442 << the resemblance to git is wholly superficial. this probably deserves an article..
11:12 a111 Logged on 2016-07-13 11:48 Framedragger: this may sound like bait, but.... could you not just use signed commits in git, and enforce use of those commits, and use `git blame`? is the argument against this the usual "git is a shitload of code, best to start anew [and also without existing political associations re. github etc.]", or sth more than that?
11:16 asciilifeform Framedragger et al: consider, there is no concept of a 'repo' in v. nor of pulling, nor pushing, nor merging. in fact the thing (as properly implemented) doesn't make any use of network at all.
11:16 asciilifeform it is entirely up to the operator how to go about getting v patches onto his box.
11:16 asciilifeform can write them himself, or send via carrier pigeon, if he likes
11:18 asciilifeform nor does the thing force a particular type of crypto signature - any program that functions similarly to pgp, generating a detached signature, can be used.
11:19 asciilifeform the 'let's use git without central repo, and pass around signed diffs' thing was suggested ages ago, and i wrote v specifically to shoot it in the head; because signed standard diffs, that can be applied 'fuzzily', are evil. v diffs contain hash-on-entry and hash-on-exit, and if either doesn't match, it is a no go.
11:19 asciilifeform this is quite deliberate.
11:20 asciilifeform consider: you wouldn't sign a contract that has convenient blank pages for the counterparty to add whatever the fuck he wants into , later
11:21 asciilifeform ;;later tell Framedragger http://cascadianhacker.com/blog/2016/02/07_v-tronics-101-a-gentle-introduction-to-the-most-serene-republic-of-bitcoins-cryptographically-backed-version-control-system.html << ben_vulpes wrote a spiffy intro to v.
11:21 gribble The operation succeeded.
11:33 Framedragger thanks asciilifeform
11:34 Framedragger watching linux kernel dev be managed with v may, i imagine, be a sight of entertainment, but then something tells me alf et al. are against such monolithic codebases in the first place
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11:34 asciilifeform not only this,
11:35 asciilifeform but i am against code bases of that scale, for any reason whatsoever
11:35 asciilifeform it is idiocy, just like the idea of a continent-sized office building is
11:35 asciilifeform there is no actual problem that warrants a system of that complexity.
11:36 asciilifeform it is purely a product of sloth, vanity, and deliberate вредительство.
11:37 Framedragger so in the case of an os kernel, you'd just make sure to break down the source into codebase modules so to speak?
11:37 asciilifeform linux is already largely broken into modules. that is not the problem.
11:37 asciilifeform the problem is that there is more than ~10,000 lines of it.
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11:37 asciilifeform PERIOD.
11:37 Framedragger i guess the fact that you need to arrive at a single kernel executable file does not hinder this (cf. all those exokernel projects, not that exokernel architecture is the right approach)
11:38 Framedragger riiiight
11:38 asciilifeform and most of it is only there because of hardware idiocy.
11:38 asciilifeform (why do 1,001 sound cards need to exist?)
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11:38 Framedragger linus chose to do the whole 'driver is part of kernel' thing, yeah.
11:38 Framedragger well, it's hard to disagree, on second thought.
11:38 asciilifeform on x86, or any other platform with dma, all drivers are 'part of the kernel' whether honestly stated or not.
11:39 Framedragger i mean, why not maintain them separately etc
11:39 asciilifeform which is to say, i can overwrite any byte in physical ram from within a driver.
11:39 Framedragger sure
11:39 asciilifeform because they are all part of the kernel.
11:39 asciilifeform because idiot iron.
11:39 Framedragger ring0 enuf for everyone
11:40 asciilifeform rings have 0 to do with it. in pc arch, every device on the bus can issue dma cycles and clobber ram.
11:41 Framedragger ah, right i see what you mean
11:41 Framedragger hmh i guess they can...
11:41 Framedragger admirable architecture, that
11:42 asciilifeform ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502353 << efficiency has 0 to do with it! calculate, for lulz, the efficiency of making gunpowder and then launching a projectile with it. (it is in single-digit %, at best.) big fat whoop that the gunpowder-making happens on land. the real reason for railgun is illustrated by the failure of the german Hochdruckpumpe cannon.
11:42 a111 Logged on 2016-07-13 04:47 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502308 << to put numbers on this : as it recently came out in debate with alf, diesel generators get ~40% efficiency if large enough (closer to my guess than yours! ha-HA!) ; depending on the coil design the resulting electricity will be transferred to projectile somewhere around 1 to 5% efficiency. to go higher air-cored assemblages are excluded because of the high reluctance of the damned
11:42 gribble The operation succeeded.
11:47 asciilifeform ;;later tell mircea_popescu unlike any type of cannon, railgun imposes no limit on projectile energy. that is the whole reason for it.
↖
11:47 gribble The operation succeeded.
11:54 mats mircea_popescu, mod6: thanks for your contribution to the courts project!
11:58 mod6 o7
12:01 shinohai o/ mod6
12:04 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502490 << actually im sure linus would fucking love it, and ~the only reason he's not forcing it is that he doesn't grok it exists.
↖
12:04 a111 Logged on 2016-07-13 15:34 Framedragger: watching linux kernel dev be managed with v may, i imagine, be a sight of entertainment, but then something tells me alf et al. are against such monolithic codebases in the first place
12:04 mircea_popescu and the fuckwit parade will consider it tantamount to the bad touch.
12:05 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502503 << for the ~same reason 10`001 "approaches to interpreting the wot graph" must exist.
12:05 a111 Logged on 2016-07-13 15:38 asciilifeform: (why do 1,001 sound cards need to exist?)
12:07 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502520 << eh, in "theory", which is to say "in the peculiar fictitious narrative some people jack off to". the limiting factor for both is drag, and it ain't going away. "oh but what if we're shooting spherical chickens in a vacuum" "you're still better off with a rocket stfu".
12:07 a111 Logged on 2016-07-13 15:47 asciilifeform: ;;later tell mircea_popescu unlike any type of cannon, railgun imposes no limit on projectile energy. that is the whole reason for it.
12:07 mircea_popescu which is why nukes are rockets rather than bullets, be those bullets accelerated chemically, magnetically or whichever other way.
12:08 mircea_popescu that's the only projectile of unlimited energy : a rocket. because it slides under the door of air friction.
12:08 asciilifeform actually it is because of the Hochdruckpumpe problem (ain't no barrel thick enough for icbm 'bullet') but also limit on g-force for complicated mechanism like nuke.
12:08 asciilifeform and rocket is every bit as subject to drag as bullet.
12:08 mircea_popescu phh.
12:08 mircea_popescu just because they couldn't in 1920 doesn't mean they can't today.
12:09 asciilifeform more so, because it large, carries fuel.
12:09 mircea_popescu asciilifeform not every bit, no. because drag goes up ^1/3 with mass and ^3 with speed.
12:09 mircea_popescu so you're better off hiding the energy in mass than in speed.
12:09 mircea_popescu hence rocket rather than bullet.
12:10 asciilifeform bullet is cheap. hence the lure.
12:10 asciilifeform fire 1,001 for cost of 1 rocket.
12:10 mircea_popescu sure. much like chinese shoes are cheap.
12:10 mircea_popescu same lure.
12:10 asciilifeform from pov of usg, rocket suffers from ww2 torpedo problem:
12:11 asciilifeform most targets (e.g., sampans) weren't worth a torpedo.
12:11 mircea_popescu if it's not worth hitting with a ~$1k rocket, it's sure as fuck not worth hitting with a ~200k railgun shot.
12:11 asciilifeform 200k?!
12:11 mircea_popescu but, in all war, the cost of ammo is mostly a cost of opportunity.
12:12 mircea_popescu 90% of it goes into "getting a guy there to do it" and 1% or so into "cartridge price tag"
↖
12:13 mircea_popescu asciilifeform yes. they are insanely expensive. you're thinking "oh, it's like a gun, hence railgun". no, it's not. your gun fires a magazine, then needs cleaning, then fires another and will do 10k cycles or more. the rail gun fires one thing, needs servicing, and will do maybe 3 ? 5 ? 12 ?
12:13 asciilifeform half the point was, no barrel, no cleaning, etc
12:13 mircea_popescu then the capacitors need replacing, the diodes are burned out and the whole thing's gunked over.
12:13 mircea_popescu more cleanning than with normal rifle.
12:14 asciilifeform but in usg implementation, even ordinary rifle, recall, needs 50x the servicing anybody would expect.
12:14 mircea_popescu rifle gets residue from the propellant. rail gun is magnetic, gets all residue from environment, also creates new residue out of solids.
12:22 asciilifeform afaik there are no ferrous metals in the prototype, nor do there need to be
12:24 asciilifeform but http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502551 is a point, and it is why folks can't resist the desire to build gigantic cannons - expands the circle of 'there to do it'
12:24 a111 Logged on 2016-07-13 16:12 mircea_popescu: 90% of it goes into "getting a guy there to do it" and 1% or so into "cartridge price tag"
12:24 Framedragger http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502525 << hmm ok.. even his workflow wouldn't differ much now that i think of it.. he reviews patches sent via email etc. and he sure as fuck uses his wot fiercely. so, yeah..
12:24 a111 Logged on 2016-07-13 16:04 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-13#1502490 << actually im sure linus would fucking love it, and ~the only reason he's not forcing it is that he doesn't grok it exists.
~ 42 minutes ~
13:07 Framedragger oh the sweet naivete and woes of internet's ephemeral aspects: has anyone (re)read the bitcoin foundations declaration of independence recently? http://thebitcoin.foundation/declaration.txt that link tied to taxation of bitcoin profits does not work anymore, for example. i guess the declaration's main matter was in spirit anyway
13:15 trinque Framedragger: myup, deeds.bitcoin-assets.com no longer points to deedbot.org
13:19 Framedragger yeah i know (http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=26-06-2016#1451011)
~ 26 minutes ~
13:45 mircea_popescu Framedragger quite.
13:46 mircea_popescu http://deeds.bitcoin-assets.com/deed/9ULZPc7yeZ9fQEA1aZ73H6mcv1s2C4gYFAbNTb5urovj << bwahahah
13:47 mircea_popescu possibly it was http://deedbot.org/deed-2014-11-02-20-47-08.txt ?
~ 30 minutes ~
14:17 jurov no it's not, tresurer contract was separate deed
14:18 mircea_popescu oh right was the contract
14:18 jurov iirc it was in first deedbot incarnation and i had to pester the deeds.b-a second deedbot incarnation to reupload it
14:19 jurov we are now at fourth deedbot or such?
14:20 mircea_popescu http://deedbot.org/deed-2014-11-03-22-31-27.txt ?
14:21 trinque jurov remembers nothing except maybe having complained about something or other, and it being very bothersome.
14:21 trinque lol
14:22 jurov trinque yes that sounds right
14:22 jurov and yes, deed-2014-11-03-22-31-27.txt is it
14:26 Framedragger asciilifeform: i have moar ssh keys for ya: http://95.85.10.71:8000/all/openpgp/ssh_openpgp_diff_2016-07-13.tar (diff from that 10M bunch, i.e. only new ones) 920M file, 1.82M new ssh keys.
↖
14:27 Framedragger this concludes the ipv4 ssh key scan (the new keys are due to re-scan + the previously-excluded hetzner hosting ip ranges). i may rescan in a couple of weeks or a month to see how many new etc (and in general it would be a good and interesting exercise, etc.) some kind of writeup will follow...eventually
14:28 * Framedragger off to town
14:33 Framedragger (oh, and 1. will sign a checksum at some point (soon); and 2. the tarball contains three compressed files which expand into three dirs, with ~600k files per dir; one file = one openpgp key, same as last time)
14:34 mircea_popescu http://deedbot.org/deed-2014-11-08-18-41-54.txt << other tyhings i found
14:35 mod6 yeah.
14:36 ben_vulpes 2014
14:36 ben_vulpes dag
14:36 mircea_popescu oya.
14:37 mircea_popescu imagine, 2nd anniversary of independence coming up soonish
14:37 mod6 not far off!
14:37 ben_vulpes awkwardly far from all astronomical cycle dates.
14:38 Framedragger asciilifeform: and signature (updated checksums file to include the new ssh_openpgp_all_2016-06-20.tar): http://95.85.10.71:8000/all/openpgp/SHA256SUMS.txt
14:39 Framedragger *to include the new ssh_openpgp_diff_2016-07-13.tar is what i meant
14:42 mod6 This year, the anniversary of the declaration is on Election Day in the US. lol. We should go and stand in places and read this outloud like they used to do after the signing in 1776.
14:43 mircea_popescu sure. know of any art spaces with hot chicks ?
14:43 ben_vulpes notbad mod6
14:44 mod6 There's maybe a few congregating spots dedicated to art, et. al. here where I'm at. Probably in most places.
14:44 mod6 Hot chicks? If one is lucky.
14:44 mircea_popescu so pick one and go do a poetry reading
14:45 mod6 Not a bad idea.
14:51 shinohai Hear Ye, Hear Ye
14:53 mod6 ^
~ 2 hours 56 minutes ~
17:49 mircea_popescu speaking of rockets etc, we ever do http://outerzone.co.uk/latest/plan_thumbs.asp ?
17:58 asciilifeform mircea_popescu: neato. old-school drawings
17:59 asciilifeform reminds me of ancient 'machine guns of the world' 133337 w4r3z rar, with scanz of old ink prints for same
18:02 phf that is awesome
18:03 phf we've been building kites with my girlfriend, i might pick up one of those plans for next project
18:03 shinohai ;;later tell mod6 471a2ce942966a575f00d310ed4a0be4f5f58f57d6d56caaa4bf55d7ea7e72f3f79c36f88fd84bd6f72198b5a841fb8f568c7679940d85d3030afe1fb022d0ec bitcoind
18:03 gribble The operation succeeded.
18:04 asciilifeform shinohai: you are unlikely to get bitwise-repeatable binary: gcc embeds turds
18:06 phf asciilifeform: which reminds me, is that at linker level or assembler? because i wanted to try generating intermediate S files, and if that's where turds are, perhaps stripping them programmatically
18:06 asciilifeform iirc linker.
18:07 shinohai force of habit. anyway, it built. twice
18:07 asciilifeform possibly a properly-built rotor will give same turdwise output on all boxes.
18:11 phf right getting identical environment as far as gcc is concerned
~ 1 hours 39 minutes ~
19:50 mircea_popescu asciilifeform aha, serious collection too.
19:52 mircea_popescu phf many of them not really much work beyond "cylindrical kite". light wood structure + wax paper.
~ 27 minutes ~
20:20 asciilifeform in other lulz, https://www.deepdotweb.com/2016/07/13/new-partnership-aims-to-put-an-end-to-child-porn-related-bitcoin-use
20:20 mircea_popescu still with this ?
20:20 asciilifeform 'Recently, the IWF provided Elliptic a database of bitcoin addresses that they identified with child porn. With this information, Elliptic can identify those illegal activities on the blockchain (bitcoin’s public ledger of transactions). James Smith, CEO of Elliptic said this regarding their involvement: “This is the first time anybody has started identifying these crimes in bitcoin and flagging them up in a system like ours. Thi
20:20 asciilifeform s is a great step … towards our goal of getting rid of any sort of illicit activity in bitcoin.”'
20:20 asciilifeform apparently it never runs out !1111
20:20 mircea_popescu it's not even worth dignifying with a mixing campaign.
20:21 asciilifeform presumably there is a pile of payola available to favoured sons, in this particular flavour.
20:21 mircea_popescu me has had plan drawn up to include small donation to verboten list in all txn processed for what, 3years now ? as anti-this pill.
20:21 mircea_popescu has yet to actually justify deployment.
20:22 asciilifeform find list, fire away, why not
20:22 mircea_popescu and in other "venture capital backed entrepreneurial ideas re bitcoin aka blockchain technologees + their respective lamestream media coverage" news, http://67.media.tumblr.com/fdc9fa6c79e206b6caa9c8f1715cb2e8/tumblr_njzceuR9H71tonrdjo10_r1_500.gif
20:23 asciilifeform if the blacklist peddlers have half a brain, they distribute the thing as hashes
20:23 asciilifeform but hell knows.
20:23 mircea_popescu asciilifeform there's relatively few addresses actually in use, you can crack their hash in a minute or two.
20:23 asciilifeform tru.
20:24 mircea_popescu if they had half a brain they'd give up the pretense and go learn how to do plumbing or something useful more alligned with their intellectual capabilities.
↖
20:24 mircea_popescu clearly, they do not have even that half a brain.
20:24 asciilifeform it's a 'tin woman'
20:24 asciilifeform 'i have a fine portrait of the pharaoh machined from pure shitanium' 'have $1m'
20:25 asciilifeform and, quite possibly, they envision it turning into $100m when 'made mandatory for legit exchanges' etc
20:26 mircea_popescu sure, sure, and then microsoft can buy it for a trillion and then etcetera.
20:27 mircea_popescu if not for hope, how would the jam-tomorrow socialism exist.
20:27 asciilifeform hoap.
20:27 mircea_popescu hoap & jew soap.
~ 41 minutes ~
21:09 mircea_popescu june 15th : "nato runs massive baltic exercise, with little russian meddling" ; july 6th : "putin's military buildup in the baltic stokes invasion fears".
21:10 mircea_popescu teh lady doth protest too much, when the fuck did the "modern democracies" bloc turn into such a fucking lapdog ?
21:10 BingoBoingo ;;bc,stats
21:10 gribble Current Blocks: 420625 | Current Difficulty: 2.133989253313239E11 | Next Difficulty At Block: 421343 | Next Difficulty In: 718 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 5 days, 15 hours, 41 minutes, and 6 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: None | Estimated Percent Change: None
21:10 BingoBoingo ;;ticker --market all
21:10 gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 656.26, vol: 6512.33113135 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 645.002, vol: 4973.66621 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 655.49, vol: 17213.09171584 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 654.59771, vol: 23276.70420000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 655.92, vol: 929.06917542 | Volume-weighted last average: 654.213758389
21:17 BingoBoingo So, surveying the neighborhood after the latest round of wind thinned the tree canopy was in the right place and time to see powerline arc and catch fire
21:19 BingoBoingo http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-14#1502631 << But drain/waste/vent side. Dun want those monkeys playing with natural gas and I'll do my own supply side tyvm.
21:19 a111 Logged on 2016-07-14 00:24 mircea_popescu: if they had half a brain they'd give up the pretense and go learn how to do plumbing or something useful more alligned with their intellectual capabilities.
21:19 mircea_popescu sure.
21:23 BingoBoingo I find it disturbing how many "people" out in the wild have no idea that natural gas piping is a subset of plumbing
21:35 BingoBoingo https://archive.is/pRwfQ
21:38 mod6 shinohai: hey thanks for giving that a try!
21:39 mod6 so last week buildroot's site was down (for about a day) and currently the dang sourceforge site doesn't seem to be allowing curl to grab the boost lib.
21:40 mod6 trinque was nice enough to host all four of the deps that we require on deedbot.org; openssl, bdb, boost, and buildroot.
21:40 mod6 So I've updated the forthcoming V99994 to pull these from deedbot.org as opposed to their respective places out in the tubes.
21:41 mod6 If anyone wants to test this along with us, let me know. Will provide you a link. Want to ensure that it works well before we deedbot the new build script.
21:42 mod6 As far as the Makefiles are concerned, we're having good success there (other than the remote sites for the deps), and will probably be making the same deedbot.org updates to that as well.
21:42 shinohai built thrice mod6 Deb, gentoo, and Arch
21:42 mod6 great work! i build mine on gentoo, and seemed to work good this AM.
21:42 mod6 or maybe that was lastnight. either way.
21:42 mod6 65
21:42 mod6 ^5
21:43 mod6 Will provide further updates on the makefiles project as I have them. Stay tuned.
21:43 mod6 Salud!
21:46 shinohai if my router dies ill b back online whenever i whip comcast into shape.
21:52 mod6 give 'em hell
21:58 mircea_popescu mod6 did you check/sign the copies ?
↖ ↖ ↖
21:59 mod6 they are not signed at this time. the build script in its current form, will pull the dep from deedbot.org and check the SHA512 against what is hardcoded into the script. if it matches, we continue, if not we die.
22:00 mod6 I could create a clearsigned manifest that could reside on deedbot.org that could be also pulled down, verified and used.
22:00 mircea_popescu hm
22:01 mircea_popescu yeah what i;m thinking is, since this "we gotta import crap" thing is going to continue, might as well put some sort of deed process into it
22:01 mod6 I'm a bit hesitant to "sign" a file outright that I don't have carnal knowledge of -- say openssl - at least without a disclaimer that says "I am only confirming the SHA512 of this artifact is ABCDEF1234... This does not mean that I have read that code and it ``fits in head''."
22:01 mircea_popescu hence why it'd be a deed rather than a v diff.
22:01 mod6 So was thinking a clearsigned manifest could do the trick there.
22:02 mod6 So, a clearsigned manifest that holds the URL and the SHA512 that I attest is correct then, deedbotted?
22:02 mircea_popescu yeah, it would in this instance, but it'll become unmanageable in short order. because it's not just one such item
22:03 mircea_popescu what i'm thinking is : the binary/payload in question, base64'd, deedbotted, and the build script modified to take an optional parameter to "allow deedbot import from known signatures" and then it can have a $ifdef for "buildoot"="deedbot.soandso"
22:03 mircea_popescu and it knows that if the flag is on, it goes to where deed so and so is and checks it, debases it, unzips it etc.
22:04 mircea_popescu make any sense ?
22:04 mircea_popescu could have a standard disclaimer up top, have it ignore #s or w/e.
22:04 mod6 one caveat here, I want this to be the last release of the build script -- so I don't wanna do any heavy lifting here. Would rather put such effort into the makefiles instead.
22:05 mircea_popescu makefiles also works yes. i'm thinking more in the mid term than for the next version necessarily.
22:05 mod6 Makefiles will also solve alf's complaint about "shouldn't pull these from the web at all."
22:05 mircea_popescu at least this'd allow some basis for proper management of this mess, rather than current adhocness
22:06 mircea_popescu (i'm not saying you're making a mess, i'm just saying - we're stuck with all this grandfathered in bullshit, such as boost, openssh, who the fuck knows what else even. qt ffs.)
↖
22:06 BingoBoingo From the mines, a respite https://i.imgur.com/OrGKuRv.jpg
22:07 mod6 mircea_popescu: yeah, for sure. i reading though the above here...
22:07 mod6 i think you have the same idea as i've been pondering...
22:07 mod6 let me see if I can make sense of it and say it back:
22:07 mircea_popescu aha!
22:07 mircea_popescu well it's just sense i say1
22:07 mod6 we make base64 encodings of the artifacts. we deedbot those, they are signed.
22:08 mircea_popescu right
22:09 mod6 a person wants to build, presumably with the makefiles, but could be a build script... they pass the builder a flag that says "get these deps for me automatically", at which time, it'll go and fetch the deed(s) and verify them, decode them, and place them in the correct place and continue building.
↖
22:09 mod6 Or not, and they place the deps in there by hand, on their own. Then continue building.
22:09 mircea_popescu only if signed by people you trust the sigs of
22:09 mod6 Ok, so .wot directory is required here.
22:09 mircea_popescu ya
22:09 mircea_popescu since we got it, use it neh ?
22:10 mod6 Yeah, it certainly has to be there.
22:10 mod6 for the buildscript and the makefiles. so that makes sense.
22:11 mod6 trinque: is there a max length for deeds? (just curious about the above ^, some of these might be mightly large)
↖
22:12 mircea_popescu an you put a number on that ?
22:12 mod6 mircea_popescu: thanks for your input here, its high time that we get away from the adhoc nature of this build process.
22:12 mod6 sure, lemme see here...
22:12 mircea_popescu slowly but wsurely you know ?
22:12 mircea_popescu mod6 specifically, iirc it's tens of mb not gb. amirite ?
22:13 mircea_popescu and in other ethedao news, today toelik butt-erin releases DA CONE! https://media.giphy.com/media/hYXKE2SGWmYIU/giphy.gif
22:15 mod6 $ wc -l boost_1_52_0.tar.bz2.base64
22:15 mod6 954767 boost_1_52_0.tar.bz2.base64
22:15 mod6 $ du -sh boost_1_52_0.tar.bz2.base64
22:15 mod6 71M boost_1_52_0.tar.bz2.base64
22:15 mod6 $ du -sh boost_1_52_0.tar.bz2
22:15 mod6 52M boost_1_52_0.tar.bz2
22:16 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> mod6 specifically, iirc it's tens of mb not gb. amirite ? << Yes, Sir.
22:19 mod6 So hopefully that'll be just fine.
22:22 mod6 <+mircea_popescu> at least this'd allow some basis for proper management of this mess, rather than current adhocness << the nice part about the makefiles and your preposed solution is that we would finally have a solution in place for all of this.
22:22 mircea_popescu ya not the end of the world. pretty big though. see what trinqwue says
22:22 mircea_popescu mod6 aha
22:23 mod6 it really has been like herding cats to get all of the build infrastructure into place.
22:23 mircea_popescu i bet
22:23 mod6 it'll be nice to be able to move forward from this part.
22:23 mircea_popescu but hoenstly seems to be actually coming together
22:24 mod6 it is. slowly, but surely.
22:24 mod6 which isn't a bad thing; i'd rather do it slow & careful, than fast and reckless.
22:24 mircea_popescu ya
22:24 mod6 building up tons of technical debt that I (or someone) has to fix eventually anyway.
22:25 mod6 let's fast-forward for a minute and pretend that your solution is implemented.
22:25 mod6 and the makefiles are complete.
22:26 mircea_popescu ok
22:26 mod6 this really leaves one last question that has to be thought through before we move on; Do we place the makefiles into trb's tree, or do we place them in their own tree? I've thought about this quite a bit. And there are tradeoffs to both.
22:27 mircea_popescu it seems to me they should be in trb tree. which tradeoffs do you see ?
22:27 mod6 The one staring me in the face is this: If we place them in trb's tree, we'll be adding vpatch after vpatch to the source base to update the makefiles as they require to be updated. Having them in their own tree could elimiate cruft in trb.
22:28 mod6 The thing is, they /are/ really a part of trb itself.
22:28 mircea_popescu this isn't properly called cruft tho.
22:28 mod6 true, not actual cruft no, just changes.
22:28 mircea_popescu if item x, whatever it may be, can only be used to do Y then it belongs in Y's tree
22:29 mircea_popescu 1 thing, 1 tree.
22:29 mod6 I started there for sure. Once I actually did this, it works, no problem with that. Was just trying to think, "what will the tree look like in 10 years, 20 years?"
22:30 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-14#1502685 << what has mircea_popescu been smoking?? there is no qt in trb
22:30 a111 Logged on 2016-07-14 02:06 mircea_popescu: (i'm not saying you're making a mess, i'm just saying - we're stuck with all this grandfathered in bullshit, such as boost, openssh, who the fuck knows what else even. qt ffs.)
22:30 mod6 Anyway, got some time to mull it over. :]
22:30 mircea_popescu eventually people will build management trees on top of this. much like phf's "make deedbot lines print out gray".
22:30 asciilifeform the deps are strictly: 1) gcc 2) some libc (musl works ok) 3) boost 4) openssl 5) bdb.
22:30 mod6 I tend to agree, overall though. It should belong with trb.
22:30 mircea_popescu "make makefile changes print out blue" or w/e
22:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform just sayin'!
22:31 mircea_popescu at some point, there actually was, iirc
22:31 mircea_popescu or was it the xwidgets w/e that thing is called ?
22:31 asciilifeform before the great cleansing
22:31 mircea_popescu i was making a point omaigerd.
22:31 asciilifeform my point was that we actually have a handle on ~all~ the deps
22:31 asciilifeform in the sense of enumeration.
22:32 mircea_popescu yes, we do.
22:33 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-14#1502694 << i'd make the downloader, if there must be one, a separate script.
22:33 a111 Logged on 2016-07-14 02:09 mod6: a person wants to build, presumably with the makefiles, but could be a build script... they pass the builder a flag that says "get these deps for me automatically", at which time, it'll go and fetch the deed(s) and verify them, decode them, and place them in the correct place and continue building.
22:33 asciilifeform sign that.
22:34 asciilifeform this 'here are the turds' thing are not something that ought to become habit.
22:34 mircea_popescu meh. becomes opaque.
22:34 mircea_popescu "oh, it's the downloader".
22:34 mod6 i can see this both ways too. i still wrestle with the whole "V Mirror" thing too.
22:35 mod6 its the difference between "easy" and "manual".
22:35 asciilifeform it was the 'sign tarballs of liquishit' thing that led me to http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1545
22:35 mircea_popescu yeah well.
22:35 mod6 mechanically checked and verified, but something i wrestle with none the less.
22:36 mircea_popescu look, we can't not sign the things - these asswipes KEEP CHANGING THEM
22:36 mircea_popescu that's why i want them stored in deedbot and sealed up.
22:36 mod6 I do tend to favor that, as opposed to signing my own death warrant.
22:37 asciilifeform pretty sure i signed a set of rotor dep hashes a while back.
22:37 asciilifeform possibly even deedbotted - though i have not been able to turn up the link
22:37 mod6 As far as the "V Mirror" thing, that I know alf hates, I move forward on the basis that one doesn't have to use it, even though it is there. This may not be ideal, but it's bridge between both "easy" and "manual"
↖ ↖ ↖
22:37 mod6 A compromise.
22:37 asciilifeform there is a reason i dun like it
22:38 mircea_popescu mod6 which v mirror thing is this ?
22:38 asciilifeform my position is that the customary degree of automagic: 'auto-fetch latest widget from central repo!11' - is not something that ought to be kept.
22:38 mod6 Yes, you believe that one should read and verify these vpatches on their own, place them in by what they say, and who wrote them. Instead of getting a big ball of wax automatically.
22:38 asciilifeform it is a psychologically-destructive habit
22:39 mircea_popescu asciilifeform gotta cut the branches in the proper order lest you break your teeth.
22:39 mod6 I tend to agree with you -- but i believe that the entire thing reduces to a "downloader script" outside of V if I remove the mirrors part.
22:39 asciilifeform and in many cases, in particular the one now contemplated, is wholly unnecessary: fetching the trb deps is a once-per-machine thing
22:39 asciilifeform there is NO reason to download them on every build
22:39 asciilifeform you do it when you buy a new disk. that's it.
22:39 mod6 So i feel like it's one or the other. People need a way to press one button and build -- not everyone is clued.
22:40 asciilifeform and ideally, from ~your other disk~
22:40 asciilifeform not from the net.
22:40 mircea_popescu this is a point - script should prolly check for local cache first
22:40 asciilifeform aha.
22:40 mircea_popescu "we only need what wed don't have"
22:40 mod6 Yeah, the makefiles will do this. It'll check the "shit" folder and what not, and look. If there continue, if not, halt. UNLESS, the -go-get-the-shit flag is passed in the invocation.
22:41 mod6 Then it'll continue with Mr. P.'s perscription above.
22:41 mircea_popescu works.
22:42 mod6 To me, this seems to satisfy the requirements we've been kicking around for a while.
22:43 mod6 asciilifeform: agreed?
22:43 mircea_popescu yeah definite progress here.
22:43 mircea_popescu the fence is quasi complete
22:43 asciilifeform definitely improvement over 'calls curl on my box with no nic'
22:43 mod6 fair enough, Sir.
22:44 asciilifeform also i have this notion that we already had this, in some draft version, and i lost it.
22:44 mod6 Thanks for both of your input this evening.
22:44 mircea_popescu shoulda deedbotted it
22:44 mircea_popescu since you're too poor to have blog
22:44 mircea_popescu :D
22:44 asciilifeform l0l aha
22:44 mod6 asciilifeform: i believe that perhaps your stator script did something of the like.
22:44 mod6 or rotor? i'd have to look.
22:44 asciilifeform nah, it just expected them to be there
22:44 asciilifeform i never had auto-loader of anything iirc.
22:45 mod6 oh thats right, it just expected you to do this manually. which i automated.
22:45 mod6 got it.
22:45 mod6 'tis been a while.
22:45 mod6 Anyway, this is great! I aught to write this up and put this into the ticket notes.
22:46 mircea_popescu *thumbsup*
22:59 mod6 %h
22:59 tb0t <%a|%add> <project> <code> "<subject>" "<notes>" [ante] | <%e|%edit> <project> <id> <code> "<subject>" "<notes>" [ante] | <%r|%remove> <project> <id> | <%p|%print> <project> <id> | <%pp|%print_projects> | <%pc|%print_codes>
23:00 mod6 %p trb 12
23:00 tb0t Project: trb, ID: 12, Type: F, Subject: Makefiles for building full orchastra, Antecedents: , Notes:
23:00 mod6 %e trb 12 F "Makefiles for building full orchastra" "http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-14#1502667"
23:00 a111 Logged on 2016-07-14 01:58 mircea_popescu: mod6 did you check/sign the copies ?
23:01 mod6 %p trb 12
23:01 tb0t Project: trb, ID: 12, Type: F, Subject: Makefiles for building full orchastra, Antecedents: , Notes:
23:02 mod6 dafaq
23:05 mod6 %p trb 12
23:05 tb0t Project: trb, ID: 12, Type: F, Subject: Makefiles for building full orchastra, Antecedents: , Notes: http://btcbase.org/log/2016-07-14#1502667
23:05 a111 Logged on 2016-07-14 01:58 mircea_popescu: mod6 did you check/sign the copies ?
23:05 mod6 weird. i'll have to look into that.
~ 36 minutes ~
23:41 deedbot [Qntra] Windows Print Spooler Vulnerability Spent 20 Years Unaddressed - http://qntra.net/2016/07/windows-print-spooler-vulnerability-spent-20-years-unaddressed/
23:45 deedbot [» Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] Modernists: Fixing self-made problems since 1964. And before. - http://www.contravex.com/2016/07/13/modernists-fixing-self-made-problems-since-1964-and-before/
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