---

search trilema search all chans

---

00:00	justJanne	Using only 16-bit Keys, cause everything else would be overkill.
00:00	BingoBoingo	In the calculus series classes test questions were taken from the homework, which was conducive to drinking whiskey before tests.
00:00	justJanne	For RSA you obviously need groups, spaces, bodies, rings, etc.
00:01	mircea_popescu	or rote.
00:01	justJanne	Bbl.
00:08	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-05-2015#1135682 << because the last mile MUST be decentralized
00:08	assbot	Logged on 17-05-2015 23:34:39; williamdunne: Read the article, and I still don't see how that makes it bad for the last mile
00:08	mircea_popescu	that's the entire fucking point.
00:08	mircea_popescu	having a central (marketplace = central) for it is about as stupid as fire extinguishers loaded with gasoline.
00:10	BingoBoingo	On standby for errors http://qntra.net/2015/05/weak-4096-bit-rsa-key-in-strong-set-factored-more-factored-keys-follow/
00:11	mircea_popescu	it all stems from a very funamental confusion as to what things are andwhat technology can do. the idea being that technology = magic, and so it can change the nature of things. take marketplaces, which are by nature centralizing, and magic them into being decentralising. meanwhile irl, technology works to increase quantitatively, not to alter qualitatively.
00:11	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-05-2015#1135686 << first=best only if(only)
00:11	assbot	Logged on 17-05-2015 23:39:53; pete_dushenski: williamdunne i really have nfi what the first trade was. if you say it's weed, we'll go with that, but that doesn't mean that first=best
00:12	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-05-2015#1135696 << maybe they could make them also fly, i'd donate.
00:12	assbot	Logged on 17-05-2015 23:41:43; williamdunne: Disagree with the cause, but pretty cool project IMIO
00:16	BingoBoingo	!up btcg
00:25	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1135741 << check it out, jdif > 9000!
00:25	assbot	Logged on 18-05-2015 00:14:21; ben_vulpes: trying out a new fried chicken joint
00:27	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1135769 << what, pray tell, is a ticky tacky.
00:27	assbot	Logged on 18-05-2015 00:38:24; pete_dushenski: "solidarity forever", "ticky tacky houses", etc.
00:27	mircea_popescu	something to do with bare adolescentine breasts, one would hope, for the sake of everyone's sanity ?
00:27	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22750 @ 0.00028902 = 6.5752 BTC [+] {2}
00:29	danielpbarron	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VUoXtddNPAM <- ticky tacky
00:30	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1135802 << is that FURRY road ?
00:30	assbot	Logged on 18-05-2015 00:58:08; mats: http://www.metacritic.com/movie/mad-max-fury-road << surprised metacritic treats it so well
00:32	mircea_popescu	danielpbarron i'm not closer to comprehension
00:33	mircea_popescu	but she's REALLY bad. i mean sweet singer of michigan level bad.
00:34	danielpbarron	I think it's like this -> http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=12-05-2015#1129306
00:34	assbot	Logged on 12-05-2015 22:05:41; mircea_popescu: "here i sit in a prefab vinyl siding plebhousing unit, burning a 50 dollar bill" ?
00:34	mircea_popescu	ah ic.
00:36	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1135840 << learned to maff in kindergarten, check (c3 folks know what this is about lolk) ; reverse-hacked leet online haxxors, exposed irc chatroom, check. alfie baby...
00:36	assbot	Logged on 18-05-2015 01:35:23; justJanne: Sometimes when I get DDoSd I run nmap against the attacking servers, one time I found a small IRC server with only one channel, in which were 256 clients all with just a number as name, and one other client sending specific commands every few minutes
00:38	asciilifeform	l0lwut
00:39	asciilifeform	256 clients all with just a number as name... << SOP. one (at least formerly common) botkit which did this was 'athena.' many others likewise.
00:39	asciilifeform	barbaric but reasonably resilient (herder would hardcode several boxes to act as irc servers, several controlled by himself normally and a few reasonably lax public irctrons)
00:41	asciilifeform	an example of this animal: http://www.trojanbotnet.com/2014/04/botnet-irc-silly-bot-16-c-irc-bot-new.html
00:42	asciilifeform	(just google 'slowloris' - for some reason ddos command was always given this name)
00:47	asciilifeform	https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9562170 << mildly interesting
00:48	asciilifeform	'During that time, attackers were able to monitor the activities of anyone using the kernel.org servers known as Hera and Odin1, as well as personal computers belonging to senior Linux developer H. Peter Anvin. The self-injecting rootkit known as Phalanx had access to a wealth of sensitive data, possibly including private keys used to sign and decrypt e-mails and remotely log in to servers. A follow-up advisory a few weeks lat
00:48	asciilifeform	er opened the possibility that still other developers may have fallen prey to the attackers.'
00:58	BingoBoingo	https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=9562918
00:59	*	asciilifeform caught up with log, links, overwhelmed by sheer retardation of the pg wank circus, maxxed out dosimeter
01:03	BingoBoingo	Probably for the best
01:10	asciilifeform	pete_dushenski: the animals in the photo at bottom of your latest article look like guinea pigs
		~ 18 minutes ~
01:29	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 38800 @ 0.0002857 = 11.0852 BTC [-] {3}
01:43	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30650 @ 0.00027879 = 8.5449 BTC [-] {3}
		~ 15 minutes ~
01:59	asciilifeform	http://www.theregister.co.uk/2015/05/18/big_rsa_keys_are_vulnerable_says_researcher << more lulz
02:00	asciilifeform	the mis-spellings are a deliberate trollage, or what.
02:00	asciilifeform	'phunctor' ?!
02:00	BingoBoingo	lolocoaster
02:01	asciilifeform	anyone with an account (yes, they require one even for 'anonymous' comments) is welcome to post one.
02:04	asciilifeform	https://archive.is/Bp6Wh << cached
02:05	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform notice that idiots are doing their pressing. "If I wanted to poison HPA with a fake key, why would I create a degenerate one? A fake key with strong factors would have gone unnoticed, at least by this analysis"
02:05	mircea_popescu	right, because poisoning hpa was the idea, not poisoning others.
02:05	mircea_popescu	team meade scores another hit on their imaginary, wildly irrelevant scoreboard. for which they get paid. with tax dollars. by idiots.
02:06	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform not deliberate trolalge, deliberate damage control. can't google misspelled terms
02:06	asciilifeform	ahahahahaha
02:06	asciilifeform	http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1504 << updated
02:07	mircea_popescu	again. team meade scores another hit on their imaginary, wildly irrelevant scoreboard.
02:07	mats	this is badly written
02:07	mats	as though no editor was involved at all
02:07	asciilifeform	mats: haste - makes waste
02:07	asciilifeform	or how'd it go
02:07	mircea_popescu	‘Holy shit, they broke RSA!’ or ‘This is false advertising, they didn’t really do anything!’ imbeciles, << no but it's THE CONTROVERSY
02:07	mircea_popescu	aaaaand fort meade scoressssss again!111 on their ...
02:09	mats	'phunctor', thins instead of things, using 'Loper-OS' and 'Loper-os', shitloads of passive tense sentences...
02:09	asciilifeform	they must employ the residents of a home for the profoundly retarded
02:09	asciilifeform	is the inescapable conclusion.
02:09	mats	er, passive voice.
02:12	asciilifeform	for anyone still awake, i'm presently wondering re: how the rotten keys behave in autoverifier scripts (debian ? etc)
02:13	asciilifeform	worth considering - where are they likely to come into play (as fetched from sks)
02:13	mircea_popescu	hmm, anyone has a ready link to the discussion of the reddit deleting the blockchain thing because they had so much fucking consensus it ended up imploding under their feet ?
02:13	mircea_popescu	worth a test.
02:17	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: it's a screenshot image, linked in a trilema article
02:17	asciilifeform	can't recall presently, where.
02:18	mircea_popescu	ah was trilema huh. brb
02:19	BingoBoingo	http://www.reddit.com/r/programming/comments/36c3ac/weak_4096_bit_rsa_key_in_strong_set_factored_more/
02:20	mircea_popescu	and in the daily 8cha lulz, https://8ch.net/btc/res/33.html#198
02:21	asciilifeform	what even.
02:22	mircea_popescu	i dunno but it seems serious.
02:22	mircea_popescu	halp halp i've been lyfthreatenet across hte internets
02:22	mircea_popescu	this constitutes harassment in zoe quinn degree. i now must have my own oprah show.
02:36	asciilifeform	http://cryptome.org/2015/05/eg-gs.pdf << unrelated l0ltr0n
02:38	asciilifeform	http://dpaste.com/167XKEJ#wrap << text
02:39	mircea_popescu	!up joshbuddy
02:47	mircea_popescu	in other news, the next batch of usg dept of internet outsourcers, to replace the current batch of third worlders : http://i.imgur.com/9EG2jYA.gifv
02:51	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 62159 @ 0.00027873 = 17.3256 BTC [-] {2}
		~ 23 minutes ~
03:14	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48250 @ 0.00027944 = 13.483 BTC [+]
03:18	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14474 @ 0.00028126 = 4.071 BTC [+] {2}
03:19	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21200 @ 0.00028787 = 6.1028 BTC [+]
		~ 19 minutes ~
03:39	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 35200 @ 0.00027723 = 9.7585 BTC [-] {2}
03:47	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 48100 @ 0.00029087 = 13.9908 BTC [+]
03:50	mircea_popescu	!up zlrth
04:03	BingoBoingo	!up referredbyloper
04:09	mircea_popescu	!up LC^
04:10	mircea_popescu	LC^ go ahead ?
04:11	LC^	mircea_popescu: Hi. Can we chat privately?
04:11	mircea_popescu	i don't know you, so no.
04:13	LC^	I'm a journalist. I shared my identity via privmsg.
04:13	mircea_popescu	that's fine, but it doesn't help.
04:13	mircea_popescu	the right move would be to get in the wot, cultivate your presence here afterr which next time you may have an angle.
04:13	mircea_popescu	at the moment, you do not.
04:17	LC^	I want to write an article about your Phuctor-related findings.
04:17	mircea_popescu	cool.
04:18	BingoBoingo	LC^: You may also want to hang around for when Stan wakes up
04:18	LC^	so wanted to get your opinion on the issues that have been raised, mainly that the first key was not signed by the owner so was likely added by someone else, with or without malicious intent.
04:19	LC^	and whether the other keys that have been factored are similar
04:19	LC^	or are there indications that they've been generated by a broken generator
04:19	LC^	I guess that is the main problem you're trying to highlight, correct? that some generators might be broken and generate weak keys
04:20	mircea_popescu	there is at least one key with a p over nine digits.
04:21	mircea_popescu	there are all sorts of classes of broken keys, which we're obviously still sorting through.
04:21	mircea_popescu	that aside, the question of how exactly weak keys came to be, and what are they doing there and so on and so forth is not nearly as uninteresting as the usg agency would like to make it.
04:23	LC^	are you suggesting that some software was intentionally sabotaged to produce weak keys?
04:23	mircea_popescu	i am plainly saying that while the weak keys incontrovertibly exist, it's unclear why they exist. someone put the effort into making them, which is not exactly trivial.
04:25	LC^	OK, but can they actually be used? some argued that the weak key supposedly belonging to hpa can't be used to decrypt emails or other data encrypting by him because it was not signed by his real key
04:27	LC^	can it be used for impersonation?
04:27	mircea_popescu	this is factually correct. it is also not the whole story.
04:27	LC^	OK, what is the whole story?
04:27	mircea_popescu	one of the more interesting constructions as to the possible intended uses is, a tandem arrangement. it would work like so :
04:27	LC^	I'm just trying to understand what the risk is here and why would someone create such keys, intentionally
04:27	mircea_popescu	suppose someone needs to talk to hpa - either to verify his signature or to send him encrypted communications.
04:28	LC^	ok..
04:28	mircea_popescu	with a correctly working pgp implementation, the user connects ot a sks server, discards the wrong key and proceeds as expected.
04:28	mircea_popescu	if however his pgp implementation is compromised in a specific way, the wrong key on the server may very well be the magic packet, causing it to behave in an unexpected - and not otherwise detectable - manner.
04:29	mircea_popescu	such as, encrypt to it, or email the NSA, or whatever else.
04:29	mircea_popescu	this sort of thing (the so called "fail to pass" testing) is the exact sort of stuff we've seen from the nsa to date, and so it would mesh with that experience.
04:29	LC^	I see, so the key would serve as an exploit of sorts or a trigger
04:29	mircea_popescu	but it is a theory - until someone produces such a diddled implementation it stays a theory.
04:29	mircea_popescu	LC^ essentially.
04:30	mircea_popescu	in any case, the idea that hpa is the target of that attack - if indeed it is an attack - are at best naive and at worst disinfo.
04:30	mircea_popescu	clearly people looking at/for him would be the target, if anything.
04:31	mircea_popescu	this, of course, is not the only mechanism that would allow such a key to exist. nevertheless, alternative explanations border on the risible.
04:31	LC^	particularly people looking to send him highly confidential info that would need to be encrypted
04:31	mircea_popescu	especially amusingm, the "key was damaged in transit" one. people p2p HD movies all day, nobody's seen this. gpg data moves around as archives - try flipping a byte in an archive see if you can stil lget the content. etc.
04:31	mircea_popescu	LC^ yes.
04:33	mircea_popescu	understand, opsec is extremely weak all over. including among supposedly experienced hackers. so, a simple scenario : guy with owned userland gpg sends secret info to hpa, it is magically encrypted to wrong key, email sniffed en route, secret is now known, but only to the people knowing what to look for. hpa responds with something like bad key, guy re-encrypts it and resends it.
04:33	mircea_popescu	he never knows he's been compromised.
04:33	mircea_popescu	nobody keeps track of "mysterious" errors etc.
04:35	LC^	there are parts in some archive formats you can modify and the archive will still work, though year I understand your point, the suggested theory of damaged in transit would suggest random damaging not controlled modification
04:35	mircea_popescu	how often have you moved a file across the tubes ? how often did it have a magically changed byte ?
04:35	mircea_popescu	because i did lots of the former and the latter never occured.
04:36	LC^	OK, what about the other keys? Are they similar to hpa's key? in the sense that they've been attached to other keys, but lack the proper signature?
04:36	mircea_popescu	there are other people matching exactly hpa's profile (high value foss target) with keys apparently added in the same manner. not too many.
04:36	mircea_popescu	there are also other types.
04:38	LC^	how many keys have you found so far? do you plan to disclose the owners of the other keys that are similar to hpa's? it doesn't seem to be a big risk there for the owners
04:39	*	adlai thinks a better question could be, "just quite how little human and computer labor did this experiment take?"
04:39	mircea_popescu	there's been a total of three pairs, so six total keys to date. i have little doubt that as the program progresses through the list, more will be found. generally, the idea is to discuss this with the owners and them only.
04:40	mircea_popescu	the case of hpa was exceptional because at the time the lightning struck (and understand just how unlikely the event we had on our hands this morning was), a call had to be made.
04:40	mircea_popescu	in that particular circumstance, where an outside but present chance existed that the box was compromised itself.
04:40	mircea_popescu	!up LC^
04:41	mircea_popescu	we might consider publishing the "harmless" keys, but for one thing i am not altogether convinced they're so harmless, and for another, much more interesting would be a hunt for diddled php implementations.
04:41	mircea_popescu	now THAT would be something if found.
04:42	LC^	have you attempted to notify the owners yet and have you had any responses from them?
04:42	mircea_popescu	adlai i would guess something between 50 and 100 BTC's worth of S.NSA engineer's time, and maybe a few months-box worth of hardware.
04:42	mircea_popescu	LC^ yes and no.
04:43	mircea_popescu	not terribly costly, considering what "VC" firms spend and what they get for it.
04:44	LC^	so do you expect your findings to inspire such a hunt?
04:44	mircea_popescu	it's already underway. but, the more the merrier. this is the sort of thing where one can make a difference.
04:44	mircea_popescu	clicking on cat pics, and derping about what zoe whoever said about imaginary feminist issues is a waste of one's youth.
04:44	mircea_popescu	this however... this is something where raising awareness actually does something.
04:45	mircea_popescu	!up referredbyloper
04:48	mircea_popescu	ehh, diddled php implementations << obviously i mean pgp not php.
04:48	mircea_popescu	who the hell came up with the idea of putting these together even ;/
04:49	mircea_popescu	lol
04:49	mircea_popescu	!up wiz
04:51	LC^	mircea_popescu: thx for answering my questions so far. I have to jump on a call, but if I decide to go ahead with an article on this and have additional questions I'll look for you around here.
04:52	mircea_popescu	sure.
05:00	mircea_popescu	http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/7/73/South_Vietnam_Map.jpg << such a lulzy map.
05:01	mircea_popescu	pro tip : the north won.
05:04	mircea_popescu	!up msdkc
05:14	mircea_popescu	!up referredbyloper
05:17	mircea_popescu	mats http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/26/Girl_volunteers_of_the_People's_Self-Defense_Force_of_Kien_Dien%2C_a_hamlet_of_Ben_Cat_district_50_kilometers_north_of_Sai_-_NARA_-_541865.tif/lossy-page1-250px-Girl_volunteers_of_the_People's_Self-Defense_Force_of_Kien_Dien%2C_a_hamlet_of_Ben_Cat_district_50_kilometers_north_of_Sai_-_NARA_-_541865.tif.jpg << check out that grip.
05:31	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24028 @ 0.00028967 = 6.9602 BTC [-]
05:33	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 39500 @ 0.00028997 = 11.4538 BTC [+]
05:40	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37350 @ 0.00028967 = 10.8192 BTC [-]
05:55	mircea_popescu	!up Mugge
05:55	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 41650 @ 0.00028997 = 12.0773 BTC [+]
05:56	kakobrekla	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1135996 < hm ?
05:56	assbot	Logged on 18-05-2015 03:05:47; mircea_popescu: kakobrekla hey, is something the matter with assbot ?
05:56	mircea_popescu	was kinda slow/suffering for a while. seems ok now.
05:57	mircea_popescu	http://www.btcalpha.com/wot/
05:58	kakobrekla	thats freenodes issue
05:58	mircea_popescu	does it not do titles anymore ?
05:58	kakobrekla	titels are depending on log1 iirc
05:59	mircea_popescu	oh that still dead ?
05:59	kakobrekla	apparently
06:00	mircea_popescu	dja need me to reset pw or something there ?
06:01	kakobrekla	dunno it was sorta almost working until you started to fiddle with varnish
06:01	kakobrekla	since then nfi
06:02	kakobrekla	brb
06:03	mircea_popescu	sorry!
		~ 16 minutes ~
06:19	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30700 @ 0.00028997 = 8.9021 BTC [+]
		~ 22 minutes ~
06:42	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19200 @ 0.00028997 = 5.5674 BTC [+]
06:48	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17820 @ 0.00028997 = 5.1673 BTC [+]
06:54	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22788 @ 0.00028976 = 6.6031 BTC [-] {2}
07:05	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-02-2015#1035777 << this is one for kakobrekla
07:05	assbot	Logged on 28-02-2015 01:55:22; cazalla: so i made a bitbet under the influence and couldn't fund it until later, i assume 0 conf address listed for it in /propositions/ is the address of which i need to fund?
07:05	cazalla	he answered it from memory but why necro that?
07:06	kakobrekla	click on the 0conf amount
07:06	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=28-02-2015#1035818 << meet the slavegirls sometime.
07:06	assbot	Logged on 28-02-2015 02:20:09; trinque: flushing with fear on command is to my knowledge not possible
07:07	mircea_popescu	cazalla shit i was doing a very old log lol.
07:07	mircea_popescu	sorry.
07:12	mircea_popescu	http://arstechnica.com/security/2013/09/who-rooted-kernel-org-servers-two-years-ago-how-did-it-happen-and-why/
07:13	mircea_popescu	"More than two years after unknown hackers gained unfettered access over multiple computers used to maintain and distribute the Linux operating system kernel, officials still haven't released a promised autopsy about what happened."
07:13	mircea_popescu	case exactly mirrored by freenode : about a year after they lost at least one server to what appeared like quite the nsa, and promising a full investigation, nothing's been released.
07:27	mircea_popescu	!up deface
07:27	mircea_popescu	mike_c https://8ch.net/btc/index.html << it's live.
07:36	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1135914 << i dun recall who put it in, mebbe davout but at any rate from what i've seen they couldn't get consensus behind the "inaccurate title" theory, or w/e it's called there. so that didn't werk.
07:36	assbot	Logged on 18-05-2015 02:45:11; decimation: Note that your headline was dinged for being inaccurate, while this guy's blog is more inaccurate by his own admission
		~ 24 minutes ~
08:01	mircea_popescu	cazalla i find from 8chan that you suck. link related https://8ch.net/btc/res/33.html#212
08:02	cazalla	bwahaha
08:02	cazalla	what can i say other than he's right.. 9/10 aussies i met on 4chan love nothing more than shit posting
08:03	mircea_popescu	?rate cazalla -2 australian which is bad
08:11	cazalla	r u trying to shit post me back or wot m8
08:11	mircea_popescu	lol
		~ 22 minutes ~
08:33	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7107 @ 0.00027649 = 1.965 BTC [-] {2}
		~ 18 minutes ~
08:52	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34300 @ 0.00027934 = 9.5814 BTC [+]
08:54	justJanne	Anyone read http://thiébaud.fr/robots.txt.html yet?
08:55	justJanne	I’m downloading all those hidden state.gov documents right now
08:56	mircea_popescu	ahaha good idea
08:57	mircea_popescu	"look in robots.txt for directories that derps inadvertently exposed"
		~ 15 minutes ~
09:13	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 46450 @ 0.00028017 = 13.0139 BTC [+] {4}
09:15	jurov	https://www.cryptocoinsnews.com/1-bitcoin-community-controls-99-bitcoin-wealth/ but warning, causes brainhurt
09:16	asciilifeform	jurov: i regret to say that i may have been responsible for the first such article.
09:17	asciilifeform	(though it, in turn, used data from a paper, cited therein)
		~ 15 minutes ~
09:32	jurov	"made me reminisce about the old days of Occupy Wall Street".. like, it was 20 years ago?
09:33	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5650 @ 0.00028691 = 1.621 BTC [+]
09:33	asciilifeform	jurov: the derpfest in question was so blatantly an organized 'astroturf' affair that it vanished as thoroughly as anything from 20 yrs ago
09:33	mircea_popescu	dude, three year's a lifetime for these ephemerides
09:35	jurov	ye olde tea partie
09:36	asciilifeform	pee partie
09:41	asciilifeform	http://www.securitylab.ru/news/472954.php << disgraceful. even here.
09:42	asciilifeform	motherfuckers.
09:42	asciilifeform	'phunctor' aha
09:52	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13950 @ 0.00028743 = 4.0096 BTC [+] {2}
09:56	mats	mircea_popescu: terrible trigger discipline
09:58	mats	looks like she has her finger in the well
10:01	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37003 @ 0.00028278 = 10.4637 BTC [-]
10:05	mats	and as an aside the high ready position is inferior
10:06	asciilifeform	mats: good position for folks with terrible trigger discipline ?
10:07	asciilifeform	let'em drill the sky full of holes instead of the fella behind or in front
10:08	mike_c	ads look like they're working (technically at least). we'll see if 8chan'ers have any money.
10:10	mats	their fire will be less accurate in a firefight after a day's patrol due to muscle fatigue
10:11	mircea_popescu	mats she holds it like it's a broom
10:12	asciilifeform	obligatory >>> http://ic.pics.livejournal.com/pdu/17573280/45724/45724_900.jpg
10:13	mats	mircea_popescu: oh, lol
10:23	asciilifeform	http://news.softpedia.com/news/Researchers-Break-RSA-4096-Bit-Keys-481475.shtml << oddly, one fishwrap got the name spelled.
		↖
10:27	mats	http://imgur.com/bXPjbOf
10:30	mats	http://www.hawaiinewsnow.com/story/29086710/emergency-crews-responding-to-downed-aircraft-near-bellows-air-force-base
10:31	mats	osprey falls outta the sky, again
		↖
10:38	mats	http://www.janes.com/article/51469/russia-s-armour-revolution
10:52	mats	http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/18/world/middleeast/isis-ramadi-iraq.html Ramadi falls against IS
		↖
10:55	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16650 @ 0.00028347 = 4.7198 BTC [+]
10:55	mats	http://www.chinadaily.com.cn/china/2015-05/18/content_20752740.htm Chinese economic reform for 2015
10:59	mats	http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/5/16/former-egyptian-president-morsi-sentenced-to-death.html
		↖
11:00	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18878 @ 0.00028278 = 5.3383 BTC [-]
11:00	mod6	8 broken keys now eh?
11:05	justJanne	8 broken subkeys, it seems.
11:05	justJanne	Most of them don't seem to be valid.
11:07	mod6	how do you know they're subkeys? did I miss this in the log?
11:08	mike_c	it was discussed on hacker news. looks like there are a handful of invalid subkeys on the sks servers
11:09	mod6	oh yeah, i saw that on outside sites.
11:09	mod6	thx
11:10	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.00028347 = 3.2316 BTC [+]
		~ 30 minutes ~
11:41	asciilifeform	;;later tell mircea_popescu observation: the only thing that doesn't parallelize linearly is the multiplication (still parallelizes as previously discussed, by split into cache-sized batches across cores.) but gcd against a known product does parallelize linearly...
11:41	gribble	The operation succeeded.
11:41	asciilifeform	;;later tell mircea_popescu we put this in next ver. and retest whole orchestra weekly..
11:41	gribble	The operation succeeded.
		~ 16 minutes ~
11:58	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47200 @ 0.00028347 = 13.3798 BTC [+]
12:04	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17692 @ 0.00028278 = 5.0029 BTC [-]
12:18	hanbot	BingoBoingo Weak 4096 Bit... suggested edits: "the compromised key in question was" / question which was ; " not only on their total length of the key" / the total length ; "two very large prime number" / numbers ; "subverted by an adversary from the key's generation" / range from the key's ; "what failings of they keyserver" / the keyserver ; "they have yet to factored by" / yet to be factored ; "this highlight a number of" / highlights
12:18	hanbot	& nice work
12:18	gribble	Error: "nice" is not a valid command.
12:19	ben_vulpes	buenos dias
12:20	hanbot	hola
12:21	justJanne	soo many bots :o
12:22	*	hanbot is mostly human
12:29	trinque	asciilifeform: turns out dieharder uses internal glibc preprocessor directives which cause it to explode when built as c99
12:30	trinque	looks easy enough to fix so I'll probably take a crack at it at some point
12:31	trinque	--std=c99 kicks on __STRICT_ANSI__ which affects whether __USE_MISC is defined in features.h
12:34	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 37188 @ 0.00028265 = 10.5112 BTC [-] {2}
		~ 43 minutes ~
13:18	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52300 @ 0.00028347 = 14.8255 BTC [+]
		~ 15 minutes ~
13:33	danielpbarron	!up ascii_field
13:34	ascii_field	ty danielpbarron
13:41	danielpbarron	!up joshbuddy
13:50	trinque	mcclim just blew my mind
13:50	ascii_field	trinque: enjoy the rare experience of encountering one's first non-retarded example of something (in this case, gui programming) for the first time.
13:51	trinque	ascii_field: I recall somebody "doing" this by bolting webkit to a terminal emulator :p
13:51	trinque	I have lived in a sea of shit
13:52	trinque	ascii_field: incorporating the command line model into GUI programming is very cool
13:52	trinque	and the idea that this GUI widget corresponds directly to some piece of data
13:52	trinque	I am merely scratching the surface of what I'm looking at, so far
13:52	trinque	seems one could do an incredible database editor in this environment
13:53	trinque	run a query, it barfs the results with appropriate widgets given the type of data
13:53	trinque	you can click foreign keys to traverse them, so on
13:55	ben_vulpes	sign me up
14:01	BingoBoingo	hanbot: Patched, thanks
14:03	ascii_field	;;later tell decimation does phrase 'grenzenlos naiv' have any idiomatic meaning on top of the obvious ?
14:03	gribble	The operation succeeded.
14:04	BingoBoingo	!up ascii_field
14:12	ascii_field	so, one of the recent phucked keys contains two subkeys, both of which are phucked. and the self-sig is... valid.
14:12	trinque	incredible
14:12	ascii_field	but it was cosmic rays, dontcha know.
14:12	trinque	anyone interesting?
14:12	ascii_field	did you know that cosmic rays could perform signatures ?
14:13	trinque	I just learned that yesterday from the fine folks at HN
14:13	ascii_field	we should like to harness this engine of undiscovered computronic might
14:13	ascii_field	nah, this one doesn't purport to belong to anyone famous
14:15	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27550 @ 0.00028719 = 7.9121 BTC [+] {2}
		~ 17 minutes ~
14:33	BingoBoingo	!up gares
14:36	BingoBoingo	!up ascii_field
14:39	ascii_field	BingoBoingo: got an account at 'the register' ?
14:39	BingoBoingo	Nah
14:39	ascii_field	^ anyone else ?
14:40	ascii_field	curious if anyone tried to point out their 'mistake'
14:44	decimation	ascii_field: not to my limited knowledge. "boundlessly naive"/"unlimited innocence" or something like that.
14:44	ascii_field	ty decimation
14:44	decimation	apparently the phrased was used in a song http://lyricstranslate.com/en/meine-welt-my-world.html-0
14:45	ben_vulpes	ascii_field: the new phukkery implies bad keygeneration in the wild, correct?
14:45	ascii_field	ben_vulpes: presently the samples of interest fall into several categories
14:46	ascii_field	at least one falls under the classical 'generated and correctly signed with dud key'
14:47	ascii_field	several have invalid self-sigs and for a subset of these, a non-rotten antecedent key can be found (as pointed out by the peanut gallery)
14:48	ascii_field	the remainder lack any self-sigs and -will- import
14:48	decimation	ascii_field: someone on the hn comments also listed the diff between the two keys, and it was 32-bits long
14:48	ascii_field	decimation: this is not a consistent pattern across the entire set.
14:49	decimation	right, but if a cosmic ray were to zing through a ram stick, I wouldn't expect a 32 bit word to change completely?
14:50	ascii_field	decimation: most of my observations thus far are not even remotely consistent with 'bit rot.'
14:50	Apocalyptic	<ascii_field> at least one falls under the classical 'generated and correctly signed with dud key' // is that key at least a classic RSA key, meaning its modulus consists of only 2 prime factors as opposed to the case discussed yesterday ?
14:51	ascii_field	Apocalyptic, decimation: i will let mircea_popescu include this and other interesting zoological specimens in his next article.
14:51	Apocalyptic	ascii_field, noted, thanks
14:51	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30239 @ 0.00028066 = 8.4869 BTC [-]
14:52	Apocalyptic	I would like to point out that unless yesterday's modulus was fully factored, which I have no knowledge of, we actually didn't factor the invalid subkey discussed
14:54	ascii_field	Apocalyptic: feel free to perform, e.g., miller-rabin on the larger factor
14:54	Apocalyptic	ascii_field, I did some trivial factoring on the reminder, got 2 more primes
14:55	ascii_field	primes? so there we go.
14:55	ascii_field	factored.
14:55	Apocalyptic	but there is still this huge reminder, which is certainly not prime, that remains to be factored
14:55	Apocalyptic	ascii_field, no, not only primes
14:55	ascii_field	Apocalyptic: try pollard-rho
14:56	Apocalyptic	on a 311 decimal base number I have my doubts, even msieve refuses to crunch it
		↖
14:56	Apocalyptic	*311- digits
14:56	ascii_field	specifically pollard-rho.
14:56	Apocalyptic	but i'll look at it later
14:56	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 52200 @ 0.00027691 = 14.4547 BTC [-] {3}
14:57	Apocalyptic	(the full factoring is interesting because it's the only way to compute the private exponent d)
		↖
14:57	ascii_field	Apocalyptic: i was saving this exercise for after we demonstrate that one could 1) sign with the dud key 2) it would verify on some broken pgptron, somewhere
14:59	ascii_field	the other thing is,
14:59	ascii_field	one of the state-of-art factorizers, lenstra's elliptic curve factorization,
14:59	Apocalyptic	"for after we demonstrate that one could 1) sign with the dud key" wait you can sign without fully factoring N ? this is news to me
14:59	ascii_field	depends on size of -smallest- factors
15:00	Apocalyptic	ascii_field, i thought these it was pretty much NFS all the way
15:00	Apocalyptic	*these days
15:00	ascii_field	Apocalyptic: yes, because folks are presumed to be using sane keys
15:00	ascii_field	consisting of -large- primes
15:01	Pierre_Rochard	little intermission to discuss -assets instead of pgp for a sec: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rdhNkv4ryuM (background on the meme: http://knowyourmeme.com/memes/pepe-the-frog )
15:03	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10000 @ 0.00027596 = 2.7596 BTC [-]
15:03	Pierre_Rochard	more seriously (?) : https://medium.com/@21dotco/a-bitcoin-miner-in-every-device-and-in-every-hand-e315b40f2821
15:04	Apocalyptic	anyway the remainding part I have is not divisible by primes below something like 1 billion if I remember my tests correctly, may still qualify as -small- though
15:04	ascii_field	Pierre_Rochard: http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=13-05-2015#1130899 << relevant thread.
15:04	assbot	Logged on 13-05-2015 21:42:17; asciilifeform: re: '21' etc >> 'The cornerstone of the strategy as presented would have been the release of consumer products that would turn power from wall sockets into bitcoin through the widespread dissemination of bitcoin mining chips.' << -somebody- clearly reads the 2013 #b-a logs.
15:04	Pierre_Rochard	yup, read it, this is their latest post with more details
15:04	Apocalyptic	ascii_field, can you comment on <Apocalyptic> "for after we demonstrate that one could 1) sign with the dud key" wait you can sign without fully factoring N ? this is news to me
15:04	Apocalyptic	or did I misunderstand what you were saying ?
15:04	ascii_field	Apocalyptic: which part is new to you ?
15:04	Apocalyptic	ascii_field, the part where you can sign, which implies knowledge of the private exponent d without having fully factored the modulus N
15:05	Apocalyptic	afaik you need to have phi(N) to get d from e, and computing phi(N) is equivalently hard as getting the factorization of N
15:05	ascii_field	Apocalyptic: see earlier link re: lenstra. there are algos which are optimized for the kind of scenario which appears to exist here (a multitude of smaller primes rather than two extremely large ones)
15:06	Apocalyptic	so I don't get how you can save this factorization exercice for after you sign something...
15:06	ascii_field	thus i conjecture that full factorization can be had, at reasonable cost, if there is a reason to attempt it
15:06	Apocalyptic	I'm not disputing that
15:06	Apocalyptic	i'm disputing you can sign anything without having it first
15:06	ascii_field	and what i meant was that one must demonstrate that one could import the pubkey, somewhere, and verify material that was signed with it
15:07	Apocalyptic	!up ascii_field
15:07	Apocalyptic	I misunderstood what you were saying then
15:08	ascii_field	i will say more later, promise.
15:09	mircea_popescu	ascii_field sounds great.
15:11	Apocalyptic	ascii_field, i'm still thinking about your "exercice for the reader" from yesterday as to how get $othersmuckQ without at least doing a division for every modulus encountered
15:11	ascii_field	Apocalyptic: if you come up with answer to this, please wake me up
15:11	Apocalyptic	heh, so there is none known to you ?
15:12	ascii_field	Apocalyptic: not atm. but i'm currently occupied with other things
15:12	Apocalyptic	oh, I thought you knew the answer and it was a challenge
15:12	ascii_field	l0l
15:12	Apocalyptic	i'm nearly convinced there isn't by now
15:12	Apocalyptic	by the very design of the product
15:16	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27450 @ 0.00027585 = 7.5721 BTC [-] {2}
15:18	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136361 << amusingly , that was for a while romania's warez source.
15:18	assbot	Logged on 18-05-2015 14:23:20; asciilifeform: http://news.softpedia.com/news/Researchers-Break-RSA-4096-Bit-Keys-481475.shtml << oddly, one fishwrap got the name spelled.
15:18	ascii_field	they had, what was it, crackable 'demos' ?
15:18	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136364 wow.
15:18	assbot	Logged on 18-05-2015 14:31:30; mats: osprey falls outta the sky, again
15:18	mircea_popescu	ascii_field somfinlikethat
15:19	ascii_field	mircea_popescu: so in other news one of the keys from last night has a valid sig
15:19	ascii_field	and 2/2 moduli phucked
15:19	ascii_field	'cosmic rays!!!111!!1'
15:19	ascii_field	didjaknow they can sign
15:19	mircea_popescu	yeah yeah. idiots.
15:20	mircea_popescu	but this is why you want "the internet" to have its time to proffer its reactions.
15:20	mircea_popescu	if you let them "agree" to "the reasonable" "explanation" you can laugh at them later. if you don't, it's gonna be "oh srsly we presented this before stanford" all over again
15:21	ascii_field	betcha they're already working on the necessary 'powerpoint.'
15:21	mircea_popescu	obviously, nobody is going to have to explain to anybody why they lied or anything, but hey. free internet!
15:21	ascii_field	retro-dated.
15:21	mircea_popescu	i don't think they can work this fast.
15:21	mircea_popescu	which is kinda the point.
15:22	ascii_field	in yet other news, one of the invalid-sig keys is a careful reduction of key size by 1 bit, and very interesting pattern of modifications to public N (not one-bit-flip and not from-this-point, but regularly spaced)
15:22	ascii_field	the reduction requires altering a header field
15:22	ascii_field	(if you've memorized rfc2440 by now you know this)
15:23	ascii_field	cosmic rays know how to do this also, we learn
15:23	ascii_field	we should stop settling for small change and take this to the astrophysicists
15:23	ascii_field	they will be happy to learn just how clever cosmic ray is
15:23	trinque	self aware cosmic rays... sounds like greg egan
15:24	trinque	ascii_field: gentoo maintainer says dieharder is too fucked to fix https://bugs.gentoo.org/show_bug.cgi?id=531268
15:25	deedbot-	[Trilema] On how the factored 4096 RSA keys story was handled, and what it means to you. - http://trilema.com/2015/on-how-the-factored-4096-rsa-keys-story-was-handled-and-what-it-means-to-you/
15:26	mircea_popescu	trinque because this is optional now.
15:26	ascii_field	'unfixable' ahahahahaha
15:26	trinque	yep, lol
15:26	mircea_popescu	"we'll just have a world without diehard. should be fine as long as ux is good"
15:26	ascii_field	how about he's locked in a room and only fed once it runs.
15:26	ascii_field	how about that.
15:26	mircea_popescu	ascii_field well, you know how that goes. "within the constraints". "you can't have this and nsa so this can't be had"
15:26	trinque	I've "fixed" it locally which is to say it builds
15:26	trinque	does sound like the project could use cleanup beyond that
15:26	trinque	but yeah, convenient right?
15:26	trinque	as scoopbot is not back I assume deedbot- is the new guy for that too?
15:26	mircea_popescu	ever since the us got on this kick about retards using things, stuff that's not for retards has been at a disadvantage.
15:26	ascii_field	actively ghettoized and eventually gassed, is more like it
15:26	mircea_popescu	trinque i dunno what you two did there. what did you do ?
15:26	ascii_field	obligatory: http://www.xach.com/naggum/articles/3203922895939197@naggum.net.html
15:27	trinque	mircea_popescu: I noticed scoopbot was absent for a while, and after many complaints just loaded the feeds plugin into tenyks
15:27	mircea_popescu	btw, anyone with a slashdot acct ? plox to dump the above link ?
15:27	trinque	mircea_popescu: I told william I'd turn it off if his was returning, but it hasn't
15:33	hanbot	!up ascii_field
15:35	ascii_field	ty hanbot.
15:36	trinque	"In closing, for the tl;dr / eli5 / etc crowd : this article is not for you. Go back to doing the dishes, we'll wake you up once you need to buy a new flag." << fucking glorious.
15:36	mircea_popescu	im so sick of this "retards are people too" bullshit by now i can't begin to tell you.
15:37	mircea_popescu	actually that softpedia piece is notbad.jpg
15:37	mircea_popescu	we actually see anything wrong with it even ?
15:40	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20700 @ 0.00027975 = 5.7908 BTC [+] {2}
15:41	mircea_popescu	"Or perhaps they did that stupid human trick that never fails: If you have excess funds, procreate until you no longer have excess funds, then share the funds equally until you all die." << afaik this was never done in practice, outside of easter island. not that women everywhere didn't endlessly & forever try. but anyway, re the ancient women broken strat discussion, THIS is a fine statement of the problem.
15:42	davout	trinque: yea, cracked me up too
15:45	davout	ben_vulpes: in everyday life you can say "en vélo" and "à vélo", you won't sound retarded either way, the correct way is "à vélo" though, "en voiture", "en avion", "à cheval". depends on whether you're inside or not
		↖
15:45	mircea_popescu	depends on whether you're riding it or not.
15:46	davout	e.g. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eoHjQs6C4UY
15:47	mircea_popescu	how did jonas travel ? a or en ?
15:47	mircea_popescu	a baleine, amirite ?
15:48	davout	en baleine
15:48	mircea_popescu	o srsly ?
15:48	davout	that how i'd say it
15:48	ascii_field	'It doesn't work when Nadia Heninger goes to sell Phuctor before Stanford - Nadia Heninger doesn't own Phuctor, and the actual owners are very much present and very much capable to bitchslap her into oblivion.' << actually, 'crime pays.' chick gets a phd and cushy sinecure, etc.
		↖ ↖
15:48	davout	but the more i look into this issue, the murkier it looks
15:48	mircea_popescu	if it pays so well how come you're not there aha.
15:48	mircea_popescu	davout :) you have been blessed by the b-a fairy.
15:49	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6000 @ 0.00028346 = 1.7008 BTC [+]
15:49	ascii_field	mircea_popescu: i was drummed out of academia while reasonably young, for the crime of not-giving-a-rat's-arse
15:49	davout	there seems to be something to waht mircea_popescu's saying wrt to 'riding', but it doesn't look that's the full story, i found another source that says both "en/à vélo" are correct
15:49	mircea_popescu	!up stoon
15:49	davout	mircea_popescu: i wish the b-a fairy gave me more money, instead of more hair
15:50	davout	http://www.lefigaro.fr/livres/2011/02/10/03005-20110210ARTFIG00483--cheval-et-en-velo.php
15:51	mircea_popescu	davout i think this is one of those stories of old world privilege meanwhile abandoned because impractical and who gives a shit. just don't make it sur, that's niggerspeak
15:51	ascii_field	davout: b-a fairy only hands out honourable deaths
15:51	ascii_field	to the deserving.
15:51	mircea_popescu	and murk to everyone else.
15:51	mircea_popescu	hence, "murk moar".
15:51	davout	ascii_field: yea, hopefully i end up in decentrally corwdfunded valhalla
15:51	davout	mircea_popescu: re niggerspeak, totally
15:51	ascii_field	http://i.imgur.com/O3F9CF5.jpg << relevant
15:52	BingoBoingo	http://slashdot.org/submission/4440577/the-problem-of-teaching-the-controversy-in-infosec
15:53	mircea_popescu	i notice alf is very chan-oriented these days. picrelated all day from this fellow.
15:53	mircea_popescu	BingoBoingo curious how that goes.
15:53	ascii_field	mircea_popescu: i typically get'em from diametric
15:53	mircea_popescu	what's your score yet, three ?
15:53	mircea_popescu	ascii_field what is that even, "fuckhead throne" ?
15:53	ascii_field	aha
15:53	davout	ascii_field: oh god, the chair
15:53	ascii_field	original being, approximately, http://hellogiggles.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/07/03/hbo-game-of-thrones-iron-throne-lifesize-replica-03.jpg
15:54	mircea_popescu	hahaha
15:54	trinque	the one with dicks would be more relevant to the show... most plot-oriented softcore porn ever created
15:54	davout	;;later tell pete_dushenski http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136554
15:54	assbot	Logged on 18-05-2015 19:45:42; davout: ben_vulpes: in everyday life you can say "en vélo" and "à vélo", you won't sound retarded either way, the correct way is "à vélo" though, "en voiture", "en avion", "à cheval". depends on whether you're inside or not
15:54	gribble	The operation succeeded.
15:54	mircea_popescu	is game of thrones the one with a dumb bitch that's the hero in spite of not doing anything ? (outside of feelings)
15:54	mircea_popescu	gladiatorial combat something something
15:55	davout	mircea_popescu: it has complex psychology11!
15:55	trinque	mircea_popescu: yep, she's going around freeing teh peoples, torching the previous rulers with dragons
15:55	mircea_popescu	occupy dragonclutch ?
15:56	mircea_popescu	"we are the 1 herp, because percents are a jdif conspiracy"
15:56	trinque	lol
15:56	trinque	total circlejerk character
15:57	mircea_popescu	by now, im not so sure of the mental health of tv watchers anyway. i guess it's prolly best not disturb them.
15:57	trinque	I have a half-baked notion that people in the US like this show because they are aware of 200 years of history, if that, and only of their own dirt
15:57	mircea_popescu	who knows what zombiecalypse lies in wait
15:58	mircea_popescu	mike_c how's teh traffix mah bruther ? too much ?
16:00	mike_c	71k hits
16:01	mircea_popescu	if it needs to be scaled down you say, i scale.
16:01	mike_c	box is still standing. yet another reason I need to move to BISP though. it seems ok for now.
16:01	mircea_popescu	kk
16:02	BingoBoingo	http://www.ajc.com/news/news/atlanta-cops-probe-lewd-appearance-of-obnoxious-bu/nmFNq/
16:04	mircea_popescu	Shook was on the scene, telling 11Alive’s Duffie Dixon that the image was “highly disturbing, aggravating, obnoxious and illegal.”
16:04	mircea_popescu	cocks ? srsly ?
16:06	BingoBoingo	mircea_popescu: Appears to have been oatse
16:06	BingoBoingo	*goatse
16:06	mircea_popescu	oh oh
16:06	mircea_popescu	aghagaga way to go goatse!
16:09	davout	mircea_popescu: btw
16:09	davout	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=17-05-2015#1134563
16:09	assbot	Logged on 17-05-2015 13:41:39; davout: ;;later tell mircea_popescu http://i.imgur.com/g5ci4oK.png <<< the paymium banner
16:09	davout	also pls to X.EUR
16:09	mircea_popescu	ah yes the eur. aite on it.
16:10	mircea_popescu	davout what is it, paymium.com ?
16:10	davout	yes
16:12	mircea_popescu	davout banner's live.
16:13	davout	nice! ty!
16:13	mircea_popescu	btw copypaste ^ now there's a banner to a respectable exchange in the rotation, people can buy btc there.
16:13	davout	no amerifags though
16:13	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12098 @ 0.0002765 = 3.3451 BTC [-]
16:14	mircea_popescu	ah, is it like us-banned.jpg ?
16:14	davout	yeah, we do europe, technically EEA + CH
16:14	davout	americans are a big no-no
16:14	davout	because fatca
16:14	mircea_popescu	must suck to be one by now.
16:16	davout	so the bitbet banners are generated dynamically from the bets?
16:17	mircea_popescu	ayup. mike_c got some serious magic going there, im impresst.
16:18	davout	it *is* impressive
16:18	mircea_popescu	it all started with kakobrekla 's sane design, which json etc.
16:18	mircea_popescu	but it's a tower of cool to shake the very foundations of "web 2.0" idiocy.
16:19	mircea_popescu	organically grown, too.
16:19	mike_c	thanks! nice things can happen when there is a good foundation to work from.
16:22	mod6	yeah, good work!
16:22	mircea_popescu	how's huntin' mod6 ?
16:24	mod6	ah! good :]
16:25	BingoBoingo	Florida and DC Aids capitals of the US http://www.cdc.gov/pcd/issues/2015/14_0395.htm
16:26	mod6	aside from keeping up with the unfolding nosuchlabs work, within 7000 blocks of my next regression benchmark being finished. should have some new charts to look at in 24 hours.
16:26	mod6	s/regression/performance/
16:26	asciilifeform	!up ascii_field
16:26	ascii_field	'accidental discharges of firearms' l0l
16:26	ascii_field	'legal intervention'
16:27	mod6	And as far as the gentoo stuff goes, I kinda had to put that on hold for a minute. I'm going to finish the rest of that up on real hardware. But to do so, I gotta drive across town and buy a new box. I might wait until after the 1st to continue this front.
16:27	mircea_popescu	why do anons on trilema prefer to name themselves obama-something ?
16:28	mircea_popescu	mod6 i feel you. here's me kinda having to put gentoo on hold for a... minute : http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=07-05-2015#1123691
16:28	assbot	Logged on 07-05-2015 05:21:17; mircea_popescu: this is unlikely to EVER change. i tried to move it to gentoo but the attempt burned, toppled and sunk into the swamp.
16:30	mircea_popescu	https://8ch.net/btc/res/222.html#226 << holy shit that thing has a face.
16:36	mod6	mircea_popescu: ahh, yeah. having gone through the gauntlet already on the thing at least a dozen times in aws, and also now having re-read the Gentoo-Handbook, i feel like I'm very close on this. To complete the guide, i wanna test out all of the steps on real hardware so the steps are accurate. I believe it'll entail something like creating a USB boot image, then booting off of that, then creating a stage3 in a chroot, then deploying that to
16:37	trinque	^ sounds sane
16:37	mod6	and trinque, thanks for all your help :]
16:37	trinque	if you're booting from USB you can make the chroot a mount of the thing's own partitions
16:37	trinque	rather than a copy step; might've been what you meant
16:38	trinque	mod6: no problem!
16:38	mod6	ah, yeah. that makes sense.
16:39	mod6	anyway, i have high hopes that some of these steps could even be automated to aliviate the pain of building this by hand.
16:43	*	mircea_popescu follows eagerly.
16:43	mircea_popescu	!up Ginux
16:50	ben_vulpes	trinque: what the actual fuck "not worth maintaining"
16:50	ben_vulpes	forgive the ignorance, but what's wrong with the ebuild from 2 months ago?
16:55	trinque	ben_vulpes: the actual dieharder code uses glibc internals in a way that used to work, now does not due to as yet undiscovered source of rust, with vague indications that compiling with std=c99 has implications for glibc
16:56	mircea_popescu	he raged at this in logs past few days.
16:56	mircea_popescu	eventually idea was to ulibc
16:57	trinque	mircea_popescu: does seem that we keep encountering the rot of glibc
16:59	trinque	ben_vulpes: that said a working dieharder can be built with my naive patch listed in that bug report
17:08	trinque	ben_vulpes: oh and... several weak results from the consumer hardware I have laying around
17:08	trinque	so "not worth maintaining" my ass
17:09	trinque	I'll chew on the thing for a while and see what comes of it
17:09	*	mircea_popescu follows eagerly-er.
17:14	asciilifeform	!up ascii_field
17:15	ascii_field	trinque: if you are a n00b to dieharder, i must remind you that just about anything looks like 'weak result'
17:15	trinque	total n00b
17:15	ascii_field	it is a comparative, rather than absolute measure
17:15	mircea_popescu	ah good point. mind that merely a failed test is of itself meaningless
17:15	mircea_popescu	you must have a theory as to what exactly would it do before you can actually say a rng was shown weak by dieharder.
17:16	ascii_field	i will also add that, e.g., digits of 'pi', are beautifully entropic per dieharder and most anything else
17:16	mircea_popescu	(if you think about it : an entropy source that always pass tests is by definition not entropic. see last year's amusement with the "guess number" toy alf made)
17:16	mircea_popescu	passes*
17:16	ascii_field	!s fips
17:17	assbot	8 results for 'fips' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=fips
17:17	ascii_field	^ related lulz
17:17	ascii_field	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=08-04-2014#609173
17:17	assbot	Logged on 08-04-2014 03:16:07; asciilifeform: don't be the schmuck who builds rng which throws away batches of bits that fail some test
17:18	trinque	interesting; I'll consider the dieharder source code a starting point for further research.
17:18	*	trinque afk for a bit
17:23	mircea_popescu	!up Jautenim
17:24	Jautenim	thank you mr p
17:25	mircea_popescu	sure. who're you ?
17:27	Jautenim	lurker at contravex, trilema & the logs for some time now
17:28	mircea_popescu	aha
17:29	ben_vulpes	trinque: i still have no idea how to do a local overlay for a package pulled from portage
17:29	ben_vulpes	naive attempts totally failed
17:29	justJanne	@ascii_field, about pi: No, pi is not a good source of entropy
17:29	ascii_field	justJanne: as if this needed saying
17:29	ascii_field	justJanne: but you will notice that it -passes tests-
17:29	justJanne	LOL
17:30	ascii_field	ergo, utility for battlefield crypto does not reduce to mathematical tests
17:30	mircea_popescu	justJanne the application here is that, if i give you a string of random numbers which unknown to you are the nth digit of pi onwards, you may think you have entropy by "tests".
17:31	justJanne	the issue with pi is that it is a very slow RNG
17:31	justJanne	and not really good.
17:31	mircea_popescu	absolutely 0 good.
17:31	ascii_field	justJanne: nothing to do with 'slow' (baily-borwein-plouffe algo is fast, gives nth digit)
17:31	mxtm	why would pi be an entropy source
17:31	mxtm	it's the same always
17:31	mxtm	just never ending
17:31	ascii_field	but with the fact that once enemy catches on, he will laugh himself to death (this being your only hope)
17:32	justJanne	also true
17:32	Jautenim	I came to ask what are the rough requirements
17:32	Apocalyptic	<mxtm> it's the same always // what
17:32	Jautenim	for running a 0.5.3.1 node
17:32	ascii_field	mircea_popescu: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/19/health/a-way-to-brew-morphine-raises-concerns-over-regulation.html?_r=1 << mega-l0l
17:33	mxtm	Apocalyptic: the nth digit of pi doesn't change
17:33	mircea_popescu	Jautenim atm it's practically running on a pogo, so very low.
17:33	Apocalyptic	it is actually conjectured that pi contains all the possible finite sequences you can think of
17:33	mxtm	yes, but when
17:33	Apocalyptic	mxtm, no shit, why would it change ?
17:33	ascii_field	Apocalyptic: not merely 'pi', but all transcendentals
17:33	mircea_popescu	Apocalyptic this is the case for all
17:33	Apocalyptic	ascii_field, of course
17:33	mircea_popescu	god damned.
17:33	mxtm	Apocalyptic: then how would it be an entropy source
17:33	mxtm	if it doesn't change
17:33	Apocalyptic	mxtm, you read the digits onward...
17:34	mircea_popescu	!up gares
17:34	mircea_popescu	mxtm it's not a REAL entropy source. it's a defined sequence that may be confused for an entropy source, if one's definition of entropy is test based.
17:34	mircea_popescu	read carefully wha was said
17:34	ben_vulpes	Jautenim: not a great deal, i think mod6 ran one in less than 200MB of RAM recently, but that was with asciilifeform's 'orphanage thermonuke'
17:34	mxtm	yeah, that's what i was trying to convey, it's a defined sequence
17:35	ascii_field	'The yeasts could be locked in secure laboratories, worked on by screened employees. Sharing them with other scientists without government permission could be outlawed.' << what even.
17:35	*	ascii_field falls down
17:36	Apocalyptic	mxtm, Mersenne twister seeded with a strong seed is also a defined sequence
17:36	Apocalyptic	still used as prng
17:36	mircea_popescu	prngs not what we're discussing here tho.
17:37	Apocalyptic	yeah, he seems to argue that since it's deterministic it's no good
17:38	Apocalyptic	but that isn't relevant to the "tests" discussed
17:38	Jautenim	I'm planning to rent a cheap vps and run it more or less full time
17:38	Jautenim	in order to help testing
17:38	mircea_popescu	Jautenim or you could order a pogo and help that effort along ?
17:38	Jautenim	lemme know if I can help
17:38	mircea_popescu	it's like 10bux
17:38	mircea_popescu	!s pogo
17:38	assbot	461 results for 'pogo' : http://s.b-a.link/?q=pogo
17:38	ascii_field	Apocalyptic: the precaution taught in school is that 'prng is bad because enemy might learn the seed.' which is a 'lie of omission' - given the existence of a relation between bit N and bit N+1, enemy may have the means to infer N+1 (and N-1) from N
17:38	mircea_popescu	^ see that.
17:39	Jautenim	mircea_popescu can they be ordered from teh EU?
17:39	mircea_popescu	hm, i recall there were supply problems in the eu. but maybe worth a try.
17:40	mircea_popescu	at any rate cheaper than a vps.
17:40	mircea_popescu	i mean if you have your own iron you don't need it's one thing, but otherwise... best own the box.
17:40	mircea_popescu	in other news, "In the newt species Notophthalmus viridescens, males carry out a courtship behavior called amplexus. It consists of males capturing females that do not want to mate with them and using their hind limbs to grasp the females by their pectoral regions." << check out the newt pua!
17:41	Jautenim	I'll look into it
17:42	mircea_popescu	"Male guppies (Poecilia reticulata) have been observed to forcefully copulate with females by trying to insert their gonopodium (male sex organ) into female’s genital pores, whether or not they are accepting. Sometimes, male guppies also try to forcefully mate with Skiffia bilineata (goodeid) females, which resemble guppy females and tend to share the same habitat, even when guppy females are available. A possible ex
17:42	mircea_popescu	planation for this is the deeper genital cavity of S. bilineata, which stimulates the males more than when mating with guppy females."
17:42	mircea_popescu	^ dedicated slut species, omg.
17:42	Jautenim	apropos
17:42	Jautenim	!register 32FE1E61B1C711186CA378DEFD8981F1BC41ABB9
17:42	assbot	Searching pgp.mit.edu for key with fingerprint: 32FE1E61B1C711186CA378DEFD8981F1BC41ABB9. This may take a few moments.
17:42	assbot	Key BC41ABB9 / "Marcel Hernandez (1MA) <e6990620@gmail.com>" successfully imported.
17:42	assbot	Registration successful.
17:43	mircea_popescu	!rate Jautenim 1 New blood.
17:43	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/da18ca543b26d634
17:44	mircea_popescu	!v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.Jautenim.1:a7148df60687a19ff87c1d6fee176454f47e22b3605b0b356515b3dfd39ba98d
17:44	assbot	Successfully added a rating of 1 for Jautenim with note: New blood.
17:49	danielpbarron	!up referredbyloper
17:50	justJanne	okay, I’m kinda in a hurry – anyone know a fast way to do two-out-of-three in boolean logic with less than 5 operators?
17:51	mircea_popescu	!up ETIST
17:51	mircea_popescu	lol cheating on homework already!
17:51	justJanne	nah,
17:51	justJanne	okay, kinda.
17:51	justJanne	yes >_>
17:51	trinque	ahaha
17:51	mxtm	haha
17:52	justJanne	the question was to implement the < operator on int with boolean logic
17:52	justJanne	we got it down to 8 operations, but others got it in 7
17:52	justJanne	the only optimizable place would be the point where we do a two-out-of-three logic
17:52	asciilifeform	!up ascii_field
17:52	ascii_field	justJanne: 'we' ?!!!
17:53	justJanne	currently (a & (b | c)) | (b & c)
17:53	mircea_popescu	talmud eh.
17:53	justJanne	ascii_field: homework is done in groups of two here at uni, so people learn how to do teamwork
17:53	*	mircea_popescu foretold.
17:53	trinque	learn how to pass the whole class
17:53	justJanne	Yeah, that’s not the issue.
17:54	trinque	teaches the best to hold back too; that's always good
17:54	mircea_popescu	justJanne your currently is 4 not 8 ? am i confused ?
17:54	justJanne	mircea_popescu: the overall question is to implement the < operator
17:54	justJanne	https://paste.kde.org/pbyoq0axp
17:55	justJanne	as you see, 8 ops
17:56	mircea_popescu	lmao
17:56	mircea_popescu	switch order around, get rid of not, 7.
17:56	justJanne	not possible.
17:57	justJanne	remember, we are working with ints
17:57	justJanne	so the ! is necessary there to turn -1 into 1
17:57	mircea_popescu	doesn't ! turn false into true ?!
17:58	justJanne	kinda.
17:58	justJanne	this is C.
17:58	mircea_popescu	return (( (x & (l1 | ny)) | (l1 & ny) ) >> 31);
17:58	justJanne	so everything that is not 0 is automatically true
17:58	mircea_popescu	what's that do.
17:58	justJanne	it would return 0 or -1
17:58	mircea_popescu	so then...
17:58	justJanne	as >> moves the sign
17:58	justJanne	so you need to do +1 or !
17:58	mircea_popescu	<justJanne> so everything that is not 0 is automatically true < ?
17:59	justJanne	yes
17:59	mircea_popescu	i think you're being german :D
17:59	justJanne	5 is true.
17:59	justJanne	2 is true.
17:59	mircea_popescu	-1 ?
17:59	justJanne	1 is true.
17:59	justJanne	-10000 is true
17:59	justJanne	0 is false
17:59	mircea_popescu	so then the fucntion returns true, false.
17:59	justJanne	(kinda)
17:59	justJanne	c has no true, nor real false. But it can return 1 or 0
17:59	mircea_popescu	you want 7 or don't you ?
17:59	justJanne	yes
18:00	justJanne	but it’s too late anyway
18:00	mircea_popescu	this is where a bring young mind learns what C really is all about :D
18:01	justJanne	we did lots of optimizations in the past weeks, homework this week is "you have this blob of binary, find out what it does, circumvent its checks"
18:01	ascii_field	justJanne: that last one was called 'the bomb' where i went to school
18:01	ascii_field	traditional exercise
18:02	ascii_field	it's really just a ritualized version of the familiar cracking of w4r3z
18:03	justJanne	yeah.
18:04	justJanne	I spent the past days doing the same – actually cracking DRM of Tidal
18:04	justJanne	but then I discovered they have an unobfuscated android app, so I got lazy and started instead decompiling that one
18:05	ascii_field	justJanne: traditionally copy protection is implemented, where the rubber hits the road, by poor schmucks who aren't dumb enough to believe that it 'works' but still gotta collect that salary, and so 'are only following orderz'
18:05	ascii_field	hence tends to be... lackluster
18:05	mircea_popescu	kinda funny that drm never got as clever as viruses. even back when both these were clever, the ms-dos era.
18:06	justJanne	the in-browser DRM is a native binary that is pretty much stripped of any information, actually kinda hard to use, but the Android version of almost everything is stupid
18:06	ascii_field	(there are notable exceptions, e.g., ilfak guilfanov)
18:06	justJanne	(yes, Tidal uses a native plugin for in-browser DRM)
18:06	mircea_popescu	justJanne what is tidal even ?
18:06	justJanne	A music streaming service that streams lossless unedited FLAC files
18:06	justJanne	about 1344kbps quality
18:07	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 105100 @ 0.00027668 = 29.0791 BTC [+] {4}
18:07	ascii_field	if lossless, why not pull'em out of /dev/pcm
18:07	justJanne	I wanted a way to scrape them.
18:07	trinque	streaming service that got whoever's still considered "famous" in music together, stamped their faces on the thing
18:07	mircea_popescu	aha
18:07	trinque	"so totally not spotify you see"
18:07	justJanne	I found a way, but now I have a few thousand files encrypted, the corresponding PBKDF2WithHmacSHA1 encryption keys, but was too lazy to find the client-side salt for that
18:08	justJanne	and the sound quality, tbh, is great. Just not worth 20$ a month
18:09	trinque	ah I guess jay-z owns it
18:10	mircea_popescu	is this the guy that owns burning man ?
18:11	trinque	heh looks like there's some noise about dr dre being behind burning man
18:11	trinque	damned hilarious if so, dunno about that
18:12	mircea_popescu	oh different one k nm
18:13	*	mircea_popescu can't distinguish rappers
18:13	justJanne	The difference between Dr Dre and Jay Z? Jay Z’s product actually is something more than marketing speech
18:13	ben_vulpes	wowee justJanne with the opinions
18:13	justJanne	I mean, Beats are just cheap Philips headphones with a bass boost.
18:13	justJanne	literally
18:14	trinque	jay-z is probably the best of the rapper-turned-entrepreneurs, yes
18:14	ben_vulpes	anyways, Tidal was a flip onto Jay Z who has yet to learn how horrifically expensive software is to build and maintain in fiatland.
18:14	mircea_popescu	lawl.
18:14	trinque	yup, the people who listen to him and beyonce aren't even paying for spotify
18:15	mircea_popescu	wow beyonce is still a thing ?
18:15	mircea_popescu	this is the hot model woman from 10 years ago right ?
18:15	ben_vulpes	he'll blow a billi, and never touch software again.
18:15	ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: mami's still lookin good!
18:15	trinque	haha hear hear!
18:15	mircea_popescu	digital or irl ?
18:15	ben_vulpes	last i saw was the hbo special
18:16	mircea_popescu	dawg im impressed, this is like black madonna material.
18:16	ben_vulpes	3+ hours of high-octane beyonce wiggle
18:16	justJanne	ben_vulpes: still, compared to all those 9000$ expensive audio cables, or Beats headphones, lossless FLAC has an advantage over 128kbps mp3
		↖
18:16	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 42222 @ 0.00027343 = 11.5448 BTC [-] {2}
18:16	mircea_popescu	who ever knew of a black hottie outlast a decade.
18:16	trinque	justJanne: yeah just average consumer derp is not going to tell the difference between that and spotify's ogg-whatever
18:16	*	ben_vulpes has yet to outlast a decade
18:16	mircea_popescu	ahahaha wut. SKIN LIGHTENING ?
18:16	trinque	and will just see 10 bucks more than the 10 bucks I'm already not paying
18:17	mircea_popescu	you gotta be kidding me.
18:17	justJanne	trinque: lol
18:17	mircea_popescu	is she inviting preteens over to her estate next ?
18:17	justJanne	yeah, still – Tidal is the first service providing CD quality.
18:17	ben_vulpes	mircea_popescu: sauce
18:17	mircea_popescu	http://gossipmagazines.net/beyonce-plastic-surgery/
18:18	ben_vulpes	justJanne: sure if you discount gnutella.
18:18	justJanne	ben_vulpes: we’re talking about services that have a chance of mainstream adoption.
18:18	justJanne	gnutella has as much chances of mainstream adoption as Gentoo has
18:18	ben_vulpes	bitch please back in the day gnutella /was/ mainstream
18:18	ben_vulpes	just because nobody uses it anymore, well.
18:18	trinque	who remembers direct connect?
18:18	trinque	and winmx?
18:19	ben_vulpes	we're getting old, trinque
18:19	trinque	man that was a glorious age of the internet
18:19	mircea_popescu	<justJanne> gnutella has as much chances of mainstream adoption as Gentoo has << ouch-zing-ouch
18:19	ben_vulpes	soon we'll be grumpy like mircea_popescu
18:19	trinque	ben_vulpes: goddamn kids don't understand the unlimited buffet that was the intertubes
18:19	justJanne	still is!
18:19	mircea_popescu	justJanne he doesn't mean pr0n hon.
18:19	justJanne	oh.
18:20	trinque	lol
18:20	mircea_popescu	!b 2
18:20	assbot	Last 2 lines bashed and pending review. ( http://dpaste.com/2FGH014.txt )
18:20	mircea_popescu	shit stop messing up my bash ppls!
18:20	ben_vulpes	c-c-c-c-c
18:20	ben_vulpes	-combo breaker!
18:20	trinque	kazaa was when the idiots all joined the party and ruined it
18:20	mircea_popescu	stop being raceys trinque
18:20	justJanne	hey, at least nowadays the web is getting better again.
18:20	ben_vulpes	bwahahahaha
18:20	ben_vulpes	ah
18:20	ben_vulpes	ho
18:20	trinque	I apologize for my senseless outburst of hate
18:20	ben_vulpes	hee hee hee
18:21	trinque	justJanne: is not youngin
18:21	justJanne	Almost every video service hosts plain video files instead of flash-based players for .flv videos anymore
18:21	mircea_popescu	^
18:21	mircea_popescu	solid point she has there bitches.
18:21	ben_vulpes	justJanne: have you been following the glibc travails?
18:21	justJanne	nah.
18:21	trinque	yeah I'll grant browsers are going further towards "open techmology" whatever that means
18:21	mircea_popescu	what now ? owned by a 19yo girl ? not even speaking her mother tongue ? HOW!!1 do you expect to end up bitter like me this wya ?
18:22	trinque	hilarious also that the shit getting put into the browser is effectively whatw as in flash
18:22	justJanne	trinque: not necessarily.
18:22	mircea_popescu	im really impressed with stuff like gyfcat or w/e that was called.
18:22	justJanne	Now I can just grep through the JS, find the link to the .mp4, and wget it, and watch it offline
18:22	justJanne	I remember the sad days of having to decompile swf objects just to rip a video.
18:22	justJanne	or using *cringe* realplayer
18:22	mircea_popescu	and 8chan was, to my surprise, chock full of html5 videos that work just fine.
18:22	mircea_popescu	youtube does not work for me, but 8chan does.
18:23	trinque	flash was just another ecmascript runtime thing
18:23	trinque	with a canvas like the canvas tag
18:23	mircea_popescu	justJanne wait, the sad days from when you were... 9 ?
18:23	trinque	and of course DRM and other shit
18:23	justJanne	mircea_popescu: yes?
18:23	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13150 @ 0.00027341 = 3.5953 BTC [-]
18:23	trinque	I'm not saying the browser isn't adding features; I'm saying it's aping the tired ways of a previous generation
18:23	mircea_popescu	you were ripping flash vids before your voice changed. wtf is this!
18:23	trinque	there's nothing "new" about html5
18:23	mircea_popescu	trinque other than the fact it works.
18:23	justJanne	of course not.
18:24	justJanne	although, there is something new
18:24	mircea_popescu	!rated copypaste
18:24	assbot	You rated user copypaste on 13-May-2015, with a rating of 1, and supplied these additional notes: Presumably, 8chan owner.
18:24	justJanne	people writing in-browser apps that don’t support linking
18:24	mircea_popescu	!rate copypaste 2 Confirmed for the ever-awesome HotWheels.
18:24	assbot	Request successful, get your OTP: http://w.b-a.link/otp/82ddd601d1ac8005
18:24	trinque	justJanne: points out the conflict between the web-as-document-store and web-as-app-things
18:25	mircea_popescu	!v assbot:mircea_popescu.rate.copypaste.2:dd03f79f93681af647a8dddf4f7c2f32fd9dc2470a2bedda0f600cc1b5da14a7
18:25	assbot	Successfully updated the rating for copypaste from 1 to 2 with note: Confirmed for the ever-awesome HotWheels.
18:25	trinque	anyhow what are we addressing here. I was reminiscing about opennap servers
18:25	justJanne	trinque: one funny example: http://i.imgur.com/k9BZPhT.png
18:26	justJanne	(screenshot from DDG)
18:26	trinque	that looks like someone's stupid js data bindey thing fucked up
18:26	trinque	what am I looking for
18:26	justJanne	exactly
18:26	justJanne	JS webapps that do everything in-browser
18:27	justJanne	makes the job a lot harder for crawlers
18:27	trinque	I approve of you having independently discovered that this is a shit way to do things.
18:27	justJanne	when my crawler stopped working due to this,
18:27	trinque	subcategory of... JS is an appalling language and bolted to the DOM it's even worse
18:28	mircea_popescu	trinque i dunno dood, i love the select thing on trilema.
18:28	mircea_popescu	first time i ever used js.
18:28	justJanne	JS has some nice parts.
18:28	justJanne	like that it encourages them to use more functional code
18:28	adlai	justJanne: dunno, it seems obvious that if you want to crawl the luser-visible web, you simulate the luser, not curl
18:28	justJanne	adlai: yes, but in 2008 you could just curl the web and get it all
18:29	mircea_popescu	and in 2010 you could cpu mine
18:29	justJanne	in 2010 you could throw wget -r on the new york times and get, after a few weeks, half of the web.
18:29	mircea_popescu	more like a fifth, and if using slashdot.
18:29	justJanne	if your parents didn’t kill you for the dialup bill, though
18:29	trinque	mircea_popescu: I can't argue with HTML being a decent way of publishing articles; seems to have worked out pretty well
18:30	trinque	I do think many "web apps" of today would do better to be written as native code which just opens a socket for data
18:30	mircea_popescu	trinque the selector thing is specific js tho, and it does something not afaik doable in html per se
18:30	mircea_popescu	something that i want so badly, i would never give up
18:30	trinque	s/HTML/HTML+CSS+JS/
18:31	trinque	the conflict there is the same one as in SQL
18:31	trinque	"end user programming"
18:31	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 40800 @ 0.0002726 = 11.1221 BTC [-] {2}
18:31	trinque	so you've got one group of derps demanding the thing be "intuitive" to "those people"
18:31	trinque	and you've got other people trying to use the things as proper programming tools
18:32	justJanne	it’s not just limited to that.
18:32	trinque	the browser's a fine document thing and it should stop there before it hurts someone
18:32	justJanne	you might end up with governmental websites using JS for access control.
18:32	justJanne	and governments then passing laws that "circumventing client-side access control" becomes a crime
18:32	trinque	meh
18:32	trinque	prove I did it
18:32	trinque	I don't think anyone in government could form those sentences
18:33	mircea_popescu	you don't understand how the law works, trinque
18:33	trinque	it is *real*!!!
18:33	mircea_popescu	here's a simple explanation catering to you specifically : it's not a truth finding mechanism, it's a consensus building mechanism.
18:33	mircea_popescu	it's point is not to produce sicence, but to prevent people from clobbering each other.
18:33	mircea_popescu	geddit ?
18:33	justJanne	we’re talking here about a government where the chancellor has a PhD in Quantum Chemistry – obviously not stupid, but evil.
18:34	trinque	mircea_popescu: yes that makes sense re: law
18:34	mircea_popescu	so "prove i did it" has a very simple counter : if you weigh the same as a duck
18:34	mircea_popescu	you're made of wood
18:34	trinque	ahahaha
18:34	mircea_popescu	and therefore, my bitch!
18:35	trinque	of course; it's something I may run into or not, but I will not try to make sense of wooden ducks
18:35	mircea_popescu	best burn down any large scales of that kind.
18:35	trinque	justJanne: someone requires I use thing X as part of my browser, and that's the day I stop using browsers
18:35	justJanne	the law literally says "if you access an electronical data computation system unauthorized"
18:35	mircea_popescu	what, like you stopped using glibc ?
18:35	mircea_popescu	:D
18:35	justJanne	where authorized isn’t defined
18:36	mircea_popescu	justJanne blessfully, relatively few people live in that sort of shithole. speaking of which, do you have plans to escape ?
18:36	justJanne	nah. It’s good enough. And at least streaming illegal movies is legal here
18:36	mircea_popescu	heh.
18:36	*	trinque emits a parse error
18:36	trinque	mircea_popescu: and someday yes!
18:36	mircea_popescu	trinque see ? someday, sure.
18:37	*	justJanne read that as trinique.see() ? someday : sure
18:37	trinque	heh maybe if the last two terms are swapped
18:38	mircea_popescu	justJanne https://kuschku.de/frozen/royal-insignia-of-arendelle/ << you made this ?
18:39	justJanne	a friend did, but I collected them
18:39	justJanne	I didn’t draw them
18:39	mircea_popescu	http://i.imgur.com/VSjAh04.png << ahaha epic
18:40	mircea_popescu	she draws just like a 19yo too.
18:40	justJanne	>_>
18:40	justJanne	I’m not good at it, k?
18:40	mircea_popescu	you're fine.
18:40	justJanne	I did sketch this, though: http://i.imgur.com/xCr9iTz.png
18:41	mircea_popescu	they do a trick, for frozen cgi, which is very hard to do by hand, where they fold her face in a particular moe pattern. amusingly enough - this is very similar to how pharma works, because it involves searching the space of possible facefolds for something that's not in the uncanny valley and works.
18:41	justJanne	I know, I spent 1 year in a dozen frozen fan chats
18:41	justJanne	I’ve seen the movie 13 times in cinema >_>
18:41	mircea_popescu	is it actually that good ?
18:42	mircea_popescu	what is it even, like rapunzel v2.0 ?
18:42	mod6	there's ~20 hours you'll never get back
18:42	mircea_popescu	dude let the woman have her childhood. i listened to fucking iron maiden!
18:42	justJanne	nah, spending one year in those chats, 24/7 is something I’ll never get back.
18:42	mod6	haha
18:42	trinque	what do you mean "listened"
18:42	mircea_popescu	lol. oh, i see, IM is ok, frozen isn't. k. brb.
18:43	mircea_popescu	http://www.metalinsider.net/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/04/Iron-Maiden-Seventh-Son-Of-A-Seventh-Son-300x300.jpg << melted.
18:44	mircea_popescu	aaaand im now stuck with clairvoyant. well done internets o.O
18:47	danielpbarron	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136872 << I used to collect flac albums like a decade ago -- surprised to hear it's even still a thing; let alone has official commercial backing
18:47	assbot	Logged on 18-05-2015 22:16:09; justJanne: ben_vulpes: still, compared to all those 9000$ expensive audio cables, or Beats headphones, lossless FLAC has an advantage over 128kbps mp3
18:47	trinque	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MB6JSmYcN2I << goddamn the shredding
18:48	justJanne	danielpbarron: it makes sense to have 1400kbps FLAC, as that’s CD quality
18:48	trinque	I like how youtube has every damn everything on it, and continues to exist
18:48	trinque	meanwhile grooveshark rots on a spike somewhere
18:48	trinque	danielpbarron: I once lost like 400gb of flacs
18:48	danielpbarron	oh I get the advantages to lossless; I even went out of my way to buy special hardware (fancy headphones and an iPhone-style device with custom firmware)
18:48	trinque	the tears
18:49	danielpbarron	yeah i lost all my flac files when i forgot i had them on a harddrive i used to make the RAID in my full node
18:49	danielpbarron	so it goes..
18:49	justJanne	danielpbarron: I have cheap Sennheiser HD 449 headphones and a normal phone, works well enough
18:49	trinque	lol yeah I formatted the drive too
18:49	trinque	to help some chick upgrade her OS
18:49	trinque	that was a lesson
18:49	*	kakobrekla still hangs on ~1500 flac albums
18:50	danielpbarron	i'm not into music enough to care about these things anymore
18:50	justJanne	for some years I had a script that wipes a random harddrive at a random time
18:50	justJanne	helps making sure backups work
18:50	trinque	man I need a good amount of raging out to metal per day
18:50	justJanne	though one day the script wiped the drive itself was on, never found it again
18:50	trinque	LOL
18:52	justJanne	<insert short rant about ALSA only allowing 44.1kHz and 16-bit audio here>
18:54	kakobrekla	speaking of flac and tidal; http://test.tidalhifi.com
18:57	mod6	;;bc,stats
18:57	gribble	Current Blocks: 357052 | Current Difficulty: 4.880748724468138E10 | Next Difficulty At Block: 358847 | Next Difficulty In: 1795 blocks | Next Difficulty In About: 1 week, 5 days, 13 hours, 15 minutes, and 31 seconds | Next Difficulty Estimate: 49340718499.3 | Estimated Percent Change: 1.09252
18:57	jurov	ls -l
		↖
18:58	mod6	cannot access #bitcoin-assets: No such file or directory
18:58	mircea_popescu	sudo ls -l
19:00	deedbot-	[Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski » Contravex: A blog by Pete Dushenski] Victoria’s nature. - http://www.contravex.com/2015/05/18/victorias-nature/
19:01	justJanne	mkdir -p #bitcoin-assets && cat /dev/urandom | tr -dc a-zA-Z0-9 > #bitcoin-assets/random
19:01	mod6	haha
19:02	mircea_popescu	i take that as a personal insult!
19:03	mod6	asciilifeform: heh, now these 21 guys are saying they wanna make embeddable mining chips for smart phones. glwt. seeing as how they run out of power in like 9 minutes as it is.
19:03	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136366 << no mercenaries even this time ?
19:03	assbot	Logged on 18-05-2015 14:52:59; mats: http://www.nytimes.com/2015/05/18/world/middleeast/isis-ramadi-iraq.html Ramadi falls against IS
19:03	justJanne	mod6: power is not the issue.
		↖
19:03	justJanne	heat is.
19:04	mircea_popescu	mod6 the entire toaster miner thing was lulzy to begin with, but smartphone coronat opus.
19:04	justJanne	your phone will burn through your clothes. And then ignite everything around it, before becoming a blob of molten lava
19:04	mircea_popescu	justJanne sounds pretty cool. how much for one ?
19:04	justJanne	mircea_popescu: they aren’t for sale yet, but if you want to get a taste, you can buy an AMD GPU
19:05	mircea_popescu	heh. bitcoin ran on those for yers you know.
19:05	mircea_popescu	some guy even got brain damage from heat stroke
19:05	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136369 << or as we like to call this, "he got von flondored"
19:05	assbot	Logged on 18-05-2015 14:59:18; mats: http://america.aljazeera.com/articles/2015/5/16/former-egyptian-president-morsi-sentenced-to-death.html
19:06	mircea_popescu	!up btc
19:06	mircea_popescu	!up btcg
19:06	btcg	thanks
19:06	mircea_popescu	aha.
19:06	jurov	ben_vulpes: what was the problem with the overlay?
19:07	btcg	random question: what do you folks think of the proposed embedded mining from 21?
19:07	btcg	i wonder how they'll run a full node, i guess there's the ~1.2 gig pruned node
19:07	ben_vulpes	jurov: i don't think i actually understand how they're supposed to work.
19:08	btcg	i saw mod6's comment how would a phone support a full node
19:08	mats	mircea_popescu: wait six months i guess
19:08	ben_vulpes	https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Overlay/Local_overlay << i followed this and a few other guides, but failed to get anything that looked like it would let me hack on the diehard source
19:09	danielpbarron	btcg, chip doesn't need full node to mine; all chips probably phone home to central node for the next header to work on
19:09	trinque	ben_vulpes: if you want to hack best just stick the source in your home directory
19:09	mircea_popescu	mats curious if egypt actually goes the way of turkey or mopre like syria
19:09	trinque	making an ebuild is more along the lines of packaging up your thing and shipping it
19:09	jurov	ben_vulpes: what failed?
19:09	mircea_popescu	btcg that it's ridiculous.
19:09	btcg	ahh, like electrum heh
19:09	trinque	there are a few magical files that need to be inside /usr/local/portage or wherever the overlay may be
19:09	mircea_popescu	no. like a fuckable fridge.
19:10	mircea_popescu	even admitting you could make this, who in his right mind wants to fuck the food storebox.
19:10	jurov	ben_vulpes: but yes, hacking on the source is best in your homedir. only after it compiles there, feed to portage
19:10	trinque	mircea_popescu: there's an (american?) phenomenon there where innovating means crapping together however many things that already existed, and calling it something new
19:10	mircea_popescu	anyone made homeless linux yet ? where you DON'T get a home dir ?
19:11	mircea_popescu	trinque you don't say.
19:11	mircea_popescu	"it's like x but for y" ?
19:11	jurov	export ROOT=/dev/null
19:11	btcg	i was hoping a water heater that pays for itself, by using miner heat, but embeddable chip, if their centralized servers have issue, eeek
19:11	trinque	mircea_popescu: seems like what happens to the imitators when there's nothing good to imitate
19:11	trinque	re-feeds on itself for a few cycles and there's nothing left
19:12	jurov	btcg: if you can synthsize it from ECL chips, no prob
19:12	trinque	uber for facebooks
19:12	mircea_popescu	btcg you seen the log discussion on this topic ?
19:12	ben_vulpes	jurov: more or less getting `emerge` to work with my sources. but...
19:12	btcg	ahh, i'll read it thanks
19:12	ben_vulpes	<jurov> ben_vulpes: but yes, hacking on the source is best in your homedir. only after it compiles there, feed to portage << this first
19:12	btcg	i usually just read it at leisure decided to jump in here
19:12	mircea_popescu	btcg do two things. read http://trilema.com/2013/youre-gonna-have-to-learn-that-variety-speak/ and then read http://log.bitcoin-assets.com
19:14	mircea_popescu	aha.
19:14	trinque	ben_vulpes: https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Overlay#Manually_setting_overlay_locations << gotta put some files places and configure make.conf
19:15	ben_vulpes	blee i did
19:15	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com//?date=10-05-2015#1127543 < fpr instance.
19:15	assbot	Logged on 10-05-2015 23:16:02; mircea_popescu: toaster is kinda dumb, but ceramic tiles for warm floor is worth doing.
19:15	ben_vulpes	also i read ELSEWHERE on the gentoo wiki that PORTDIR_OVERLAY is deprecated
19:15	jurov	btcg: and if it is not only gentoo problem, you can skip portage and go annoy upstream
19:15	ben_vulpes	so i don't know mang
19:15	trinque	deprecated for what
19:15	justJanne	trinque: that is very much true @ the apple-strategy argument
19:15	mats	mircea_popescu: i'm inclined to believe egypt will follow syria
19:15	mircea_popescu	seems safe bet.
19:15	trinque	ben_vulpes: god damn it; I smell shitgnoes
19:15	trinque	*gnomes
19:15	trinque	https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Project:Portage/Sync << they're adding "plugins"
19:16	ben_vulpes	nigga iono
19:16	trinque	fuck it all; everyone has to bolt a dick massager to everything
19:16	ben_vulpes	some "overlay for morons" gentoo wiki page
19:16	btcg	jurov apologies i am not on gentoo sir
19:16	ben_vulpes	https://wiki.gentoo.org/wiki/Overlay/Local_overlay << "Note: The old method of setting the 'PORTDIR_OVERLAY' variable in make.conf is deprecated and should not be used."
19:17	jurov	btcg sry it was to ben
19:17	mircea_popescu	trinque:--std=c99 kicks on __STRICT_ANSI__ which affects whether __USE_MISC is defined in features.h << such a great explanation of wtf is wrong with all this shit.
19:17	trinque	justJanne: it's the whole socialist world's strategy
19:17	trinque	with scare quotes
19:17	trinque	best stated by mircea_popescu re: reproduce until there isn't anything extra, then divide it all until dead
19:17	mircea_popescu	naggum.
19:17	justJanne	trinque: it makes me especially angry when this is combined with programmers who call themselves "engineers", but whose products stop working after just a decade
19:17	trinque	ah that was his?
19:17	mircea_popescu	yup.
19:17	mircea_popescu	fwiw, i happen to believe it is actually the correct strategy,
19:17	mircea_popescu	just, correct from a game theoretic perspective of genetics, not of individual humans.
19:17	trinque	it's what animal populations do right? boom and bust
19:17	trinque	justJanne: the problem there is economic; why give a shit what happens next year? we'll all be dead
19:18	justJanne	trinque: that’s one issue, sadly.
19:18	justJanne	in the past years, technology got worse
19:18	justJanne	microwave from 1980 still works, TV from '96 as well, PC from '98 is still in use.
19:18	justJanne	but phone from 2007 is EOL
19:18	mircea_popescu	actually, glengarry moss had that one right : http://trilema.com/2014/weak-sauce/#selection-765.0-767.186
19:22	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1136459 << i agree, this is one of the better derivative works to be had on the basis of the phuctor results.
19:22	assbot	Logged on 18-05-2015 18:57:06; Apocalyptic: (the full factoring is interesting because it's the only way to compute the private exponent d)
19:22	ben_vulpes	<justJanne> your phone will burn through your clothes. And then ignite everything around it, before becoming a blob of molten lava << israelis came up with this one iirc
19:22	mircea_popescu	fully investigate the keys in question, cornerstone of which is, get d.
19:25	mircea_popescu	Pierre_Rochard holy shiot wtf is that.
19:26	mircea_popescu	!up ko__
19:28	trinque	http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/05/18/us-mideast-crisis-iraq-idUSKBN0O20M020150518 "U.S. Secretary of State John Kerry said it was a "target of opportunity," that could be retaken in a matter of days, and U.S. officials insisted there would be no change in strategy despite a failure to make major advances against Islamic State."
19:29	trinque	does seem like if anything coherent is intended at all, it's to provoke a larger regional war
19:30	trinque	oh the irony that would be if someday the middle east is united in its hatred for the united states
19:30	mircea_popescu	such vietnam
19:32	mircea_popescu	to streamline administration ~~~and deregulate power to lower levels~~~
19:33	mircea_popescu	china will be un-fucking-stoppable.
19:34	trinque	http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2015-05/18/c_134248403.htm << that'n eh?
19:35	trinque	sounds like they're going to put the fork in the dollar
19:35	mircea_popescu	if they implement even halfway...
19:37	justJanne	meh.
19:38	justJanne	the US is financing the saudi’s, who sell ISIS weapons, so technically the US is financing ISIS anyway
19:38	trinque	I think the Saudi's deserve some credit for the swindle there
19:38	mircea_popescu	"your dad brought you clothes, which you traded for drugs, so technically your dad bought you drugs"
19:39	justJanne	if the dad still gives you clothes, even though he knows what you’re doing...
19:39	justJanne	and the US is also selling weapons to the saudis directly, which they sold directly to ISIS
19:42	trinque	probably some faction of bastards in the US is actually aware of this, and others are not
19:42	trinque	there's not one coherent "they" to consider in regards to the country
19:43	justJanne	yeah, it’s not something the population can do anything against. it’s just inevitable with 2 parties that are both quite corrupt
19:43	justJanne	not that Germany would be better, with people like Gerhard Schröder >_>
19:44	mircea_popescu	is he bad ?
19:45	justJanne	He was a German chancellor in the social democrats party who reduced welfare spending, removed any kind of minimum wage ideas, added laws for some businesses, and changed several laws so that Gazprom could build a pipeline.
19:45	justJanne	the day after his time as chancellor ended, he got a job at Gazprom
19:45	justJanne	this guy betrayed everyone who voted for thim, and the rest of Germany, too
19:45	mircea_popescu	seems like they're all splendid ideas ?
19:46	justJanne	nope. Reducing unemployment money, removing minimum wage, etc is definitely not "good"
19:46	mircea_popescu	why not ?
19:46	justJanne	because everyone should have equal chances
19:47	mircea_popescu	why ?
19:47	jurov	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=18-05-2015#1137062 lmao i have only now noticed
19:47	assbot	Logged on 18-05-2015 22:57:22; jurov: ls -l
19:47	justJanne	because no one should have a disadvantage from choices they didn’t make.
19:47	mircea_popescu	so ?
19:47	justJanne	just because your parents are poor doesn’t mean you should have worse chances in life
19:47	mircea_popescu	why not ?
19:47	justJanne	because you aren’t responsible
19:48	mircea_popescu	of course you are. you work hard and save to give your kids a better chance.
19:48	justJanne	do you want to punish people for stuff they didn’t do, choices they didn’t make?
19:48	mircea_popescu	you don't expect every kids have equal chances, because that removes any incentive for you to do anything.
19:48	mircea_popescu	just float around.
19:48	justJanne	no, it doesn’t.
19:48	justJanne	nowadays we have basic income here even.
19:48	justJanne	people still work.
19:48	mircea_popescu	i punish people for what they are rather than what they want to be all the time.
19:48	mircea_popescu	heck, my whole life's built around this principle.
19:48	justJanne	then you might want to rethink your life.
19:49	mircea_popescu	one of us, at any rate.
19:49	justJanne	let’s say it like this, not even the literal nazis had such a right-wing idea about society. And they are nazis.
		↖
19:49	mircea_popescu	i know.
19:49	mircea_popescu	admittedly, i'm more like a 1700s mind.
		↖
19:49	justJanne	anyway, it works here.
19:50	mircea_popescu	to me, the difference between soviets and nazis is nil : both were socialists.
19:50	mircea_popescu	no, it doesn't. that's the fallacy of "we can't compare to any alternatives, as thery don't exist - so it works fine!!1"
19:50	mircea_popescu	ever read candide ?
19:50	justJanne	like 90% of all firemen here, for example, work for free. volunteers. No pay, nothing. They risk their lives for nothing, while still having a normal job at the same time.
19:50	trinque	why should they not be paid for dangerous work?
19:51	justJanne	because they are volunteers.
		↖
19:51	mircea_popescu	moreover, why is some people's preference a basis for law ?
19:51	mircea_popescu	let those firemen do whatever the fuck they please and pay me.
19:51	justJanne	the idea is: if society is well enough,
19:51	justJanne	then people will work literally for free,
19:51	mircea_popescu	society is about as meaningful a concept as baby jesus.
19:51	justJanne	just to provide a benefit for everyone
19:51	mircea_popescu	and yes, people behave stupidly all the time
19:51	mircea_popescu	this is no valid argument.
19:51	justJanne	it’s not stupid.
19:51	mircea_popescu	says who ?
19:52	justJanne	everyone?
19:52	mircea_popescu	apparently not.
19:52	justJanne	obviously it works well in the countries with the highest standard of living –
19:52	mircea_popescu	(and here we go again, The Narrative is fragile)
19:52	justJanne	all across scandinavia and central europe
19:52	mircea_popescu	no, it works absolutely nowhere.
19:53	mircea_popescu	just, some people are momentarily insulated from the effects of their stupidity.
19:53	justJanne	No.
19:53	mircea_popescu	just like - unprotected sex works fine "in those places where syplhilis hasn't appeared yet".
19:53	mircea_popescu	sure. won't last. by the very nature of what unprotected sex is, it won't last.
19:53	justJanne	that’s not the thing.
19:53	justJanne	this system of society has lasted for centuries
19:53	mircea_popescu	nope. it's barely five decades old, and already cracking.
19:53	justJanne	the volunteering fire brigade system has existed since the 1400s
19:54	mircea_popescu	ah, that. again : let those firemen do whatever the fuck they please and pay me.
19:54	justJanne	the consumer cooperatives operating non-profit chains of grocery stores have also existed since the 1800s
19:54	mircea_popescu	and necrophillic pedophillia has existed since 50`000 years ago.
19:54	mircea_popescu	so what of it ?
19:55	justJanne	It’s obviously more stable than the economical system plagued of bubble bursts that is existing at Wall Street nowadays
19:55	mircea_popescu	the system you discuss IS the other system you discuss.
19:55	mircea_popescu	there's no difference there, just a meaningless distinction.
19:55	justJanne	no.
19:56	mircea_popescu	well, if you manage to survive emotionally, your stay in #b-a is bound to be instructive.
19:56	justJanne	the first system I discuss in scandinavia or central europe is a place where 60% of the companies have existed for centuries, have long term neither profit nor losses, and no growth
19:56	justJanne	which isn’t really necessary
19:56	justJanne	tbh, it’s the only really sustainable way
19:57	trinque	sounds like an environment where it'd be difficult to get anything new started
19:57	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 53750 @ 0.00027982 = 15.0403 BTC [+] {2}
19:57	justJanne	not really. There are many startups here, actually.
19:58	justJanne	the thing is that most of these don’t aim for a huge profit,
19:58	justJanne	but aim for slow growth and a sustainable profit.
19:58	trinque	oh youngin
19:59	justJanne	yes, that actually works.
19:59	justJanne	you don’t need to aim for 1 billion users with your 5 people startup to be sustainable
19:59	trinque	you'll get no argument from me on that
19:59	trinque	but that is not tantamount to saying "therefore social democracy"
19:59	trinque	not even close
19:59	justJanne	ofc nto.
19:59	justJanne	not
19:59	justJanne	we are at a completely different point now
19:59	justJanne	sadly.
20:00	jurov	https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EO5ectGTcOU justJanne: the "sustained" was just your luck that usg needed to prop you up
20:01	trinque	if we presuppose that the only way to start a business will be having someone bankroll you, we're already lost
20:01	trinque	central planning has limitations which will mean that you get far fewer "startups"
20:01	justJanne	trinque: that is socialism
20:01	justJanne	not social democracy
20:01	justJanne	social democracy consists of a social market:
20:01	trinque	justJanne: you just misunderstand my definition of central planning
20:01	justJanne	essentially a free market, but with 50% taxes and basic income
20:01	trinque	uh huh and who determined those are the magic numbers?
20:02	trinque	give me a low cost of living and don't tax the shit out of me and I'll start all kinds of businesses
20:02	justJanne	the people? that’s why you have (a) elections and (b) public polls on them?
20:02	justJanne	we have a party that aims for that.
20:02	trinque	determining that 50% taxes is the magic number is not soviet because "the people"
20:02	justJanne	they got less than 4% of the votes last election
20:03	danielpbarron	the people are stupid
20:03	justJanne	no. they just know that one day they might lose their job,
20:03	trinque	danielpbarron: heh I always like "surgery by your peers" as a thought experiment
20:03	justJanne	and that it is preferable to be safe over having high returns
20:03	trinque	justJanne: you are completely ignoring the financial considerations involved
20:04	trinque	and substituting "consent" for that
20:04	justJanne	trinque: you get all those 50% taxes back to you. In free child daycare, free healthcare, etc.
		↖
20:04	danielpbarron	high returns is a safeguard against starving when you lose your job; it leads to savings
20:04	BingoBoingo	asciilifeform: Morphine yeast seems like a bigger blow to the fiat order than 3D guns and shovel AK's for sure
20:05	justJanne	danielpbarron: unless you lose it all, and have no money and are starving
20:05	trinque	danielpbarron: and results in a person that can *make decisions*
20:05	trinque	justJanne: then you made bad decisions
20:05	trinque	or someone else did
20:05	justJanne	yes.
20:05	justJanne	but society is there to save you from the consequences of bad decisions ;P
20:05	trinque	so how did I get involved in that?
20:05	danielpbarron	why should someone who is prone to "lose it all" be propped up by his more productive neighbors?
20:05	justJanne	especially when you aren’t responsible
20:05	trinque	justJanne: so out of this bundle of bad decisons how do good ones emerge?
20:06	trinque	danielpbarron: because govt is the new god and he can save us from even death
20:06	trinque	or she, I guess these days
20:06	justJanne	danielpbarron: because they have a chance to work later on again?
20:06	danielpbarron	this notion that you can be born "not responsible" is the false axiom from which you base further positions
20:06	justJanne	it is more profitable, for example, to put criminals into a trade school and let them work again than to put them into a prison
20:07	mats	why should society save you from yourself? that's not sustainable in the least.
20:07	trinque	justJanne: you cannot assert such things absent the financial considerations
20:08	trinque	we can imagine all sorts of ideal scenarios if we're free to disregard parts of reality we don't like
20:08	jurov	yeah, it is actually true providing shelter to homeless is cheaper than let them die and dispose of properly
20:08	justJanne	so, in your minds, the Comcast/ATT/Verizon oligopol is good?
20:08	mats	oligopolies are not inherently evil, you know.
20:08	trinque	justJanne: what keeps them from being outcompeted?
20:08	danielpbarron	justJanne, your society is a prison; that is, the one in which there is no individual and only the considerations of the lowest common denominator
20:08	trinque	too much noise; one point at a time.
20:09	justJanne	trinque: cost.
20:09	trinque	incorrect
20:09	justJanne	the starting cost is extreme.
20:09	justJanne	and the oligopols lobby corrupt politicians, too
20:09	trinque	justJanne: are you familiar with "regulatory capture"
20:09	trinque	sure cost but what makes it expensive
20:09	justJanne	and yes, mats, in my opinion all monopolies or oligopolies are inherently evil
20:09	trinque	but not governments
20:09	mats	justJanne: because "its not fair"?
20:10	trinque	the largest of them
20:10	justJanne	mats: yes.
20:10	mats	because everyone should get a shot at being a telecoms company!
20:10	justJanne	mats: yes, but you have to ask the question different.
20:10	cazalla	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137291 <<< i wouldn't send my dog to free childcare let alone my actually son
20:10	assbot	Logged on 19-05-2015 00:04:29; justJanne: trinque: you get all those 50% taxes back to you. In free child daycare, free healthcare, etc.
20:10	mats	sign me up. i don't know shit, but i can carry a gun. am i qualified?
20:10	mats	could do, like, perimeter security for a base station.
20:10	justJanne	mats: yes. my ISP I use right now is 5 geeks in a basement.
20:10	justJanne	I get 100/40mbps for 10$ a monht
20:11	justJanne	and they are profitable
20:11	cazalla	you might pay $100 to them in tax but you sure as fuck don't get back $100 worth of childcare when it's free
20:11	trinque	try doing radio experiments in your garage and see how long it takes for the FCC to show up
20:11	mod6	asciilifeform: thx for posting the werker
20:11	justJanne	cazalla: you haven’ŧ seen childcare here, I have – I was in it just 13 years ago ;P
20:11	cazalla	it shows
20:11	jurov	cazalla: so you'll pay $1000 for childcare instead?
20:11	mats	justJanne: b-but don't you believe in freedom?
20:12	mats	its entirely possible that monopolies, oligopolies will naturally arise in conditions of voluntary trade
20:12	justJanne	mats: your freedom ends where the freedom of the others begins
20:12	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 91076 @ 0.0002709 = 24.6725 BTC [-] {4}
20:12	mats	and you want, what, a coalition of retards (e.g. bureaucrats and commoners) to manage allocation of capital?
20:12	justJanne	no.
20:12	mats	but you'd bust that up, if you ran things.
20:13	justJanne	no.
20:13	justJanne	the current situation is ideal.
20:13	mats	but they're evil. you must fight evil.
20:13	justJanne	neither side is evil.
20:13	justJanne	only sith deal in absolutes
20:13	danielpbarron	what is the current situation?
20:13	hanbot	except monopolies?
20:13	trinque	danielpbarron: social democracy
20:13	justJanne	monopolies aren’t really "evil", they just develop out of greed
20:14	hanbot	butr you said...
20:14	justJanne	the issue with monopolies is that the companies behind it try to do everything in their mind to avoid competition.
20:14	justJanne	which is inherently evil
20:14	trinque	justJanne: you find me a "monopoly" in history that didn't have govt protection
20:14	justJanne	and rarely monopolies every arise without this
20:14	justJanne	trinque: Google on the search market
20:14	hanbot	how about jealous wives?
		↖
20:14	trinque	justJanne: fucking lol
20:14	trinque	you have no idea what a monopoly is
20:15	cazalla	jurov, nope, i'm anti-childcare, kids should be home with their parents, not strangers and other swine
20:15	trinque	it's not "oh no they're winning"
20:15	danielpbarron	she has no idea what "evil" is
20:15	mats	the point of being a business is to brutally murder your competition. there's no avoidance going on.
20:15	cazalla	my point was more that the idea that you get back what you pay in taxes by way of free healthcare and childcare is retarded
20:15	mats	it just happens that the moat is too high for joe commoner to cross.
20:15	jurov	cazalla: the $1000 figure stays even more so if you're to stay home
20:16	jurov	and if you pay your own doctor
20:16	jurov	own teacher
20:16	jurov	etc...
20:16	danielpbarron	cazalla, it's practically a mathematical proof : the further detached money gets from the person it is meant to benefit, the less efficiently it will be spent
20:16	justJanne	that’s why politicians are supposed to be normal people.
20:16	justJanne	my state’s governor uses the same bus as me every morning
20:16	danielpbarron	and i'm supposed to have a flying car already
20:16	cazalla	jurov, i would if i could, but i can't afford my own doctor.. i can afford to keep kid out of childcare
20:16	trinque	justJanne: many of the phrases you use are propaganda terms with no well defined meaning
20:17	trinque	"normal people" among them
20:17	justJanne	trinque: I am talking about "anyone can become politician"
20:17	cazalla	if you're gonna put your kids in childcare, ya may as well just kill em now and save yourself years of pain
20:17	trinque	justJanne: and derpy uncle Biden rode amtrak
20:17	jurov	and you trinque cazalla danielpbarron are talking about some ideal you can't afford anyway
20:17	trinque	so what
20:17	trinque	jurov: eh?
20:17	danielpbarron	i don't want to live in your socialist hell-hole where every man rides the same urine-smelling bus no matter how productive he is
20:17	trinque	jurov: if I had a kid right now I'd be able to pay for it just fine
20:18	justJanne	danielpbarron: it’s not urine-smelling, lol.
20:18	danielpbarron	yet..
20:18	justJanne	even the 10yo busses aren’t.
20:18	jurov	danielpbarron: go on
20:18	justJanne	because people don’t do that.
20:18	trinque	issue isn't the smell of piss
20:18	jurov	danielpbarron: how we live in north korea
20:19	trinque	justJanne: the issue is your assumption that you have call to involve yourself in my affairs
20:19	trinque	as this aggregate "the people"
20:19	trinque	I say come and take it.
20:19	justJanne	Ah, the english article for "social democracy" is actually wrong
20:19	*	trinque departs for now
20:19	justJanne	please read https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nordic_model instead
20:20	justJanne	that’s what I’m referring to
20:20	trinque	I will, bbl
20:20	danielpbarron	whatever you're referring to, the monstrosity has 50% tax rate!
20:20	justJanne	44% here right now.
20:20	danielpbarron	disgusting
20:20	justJanne	and that’s including insurance
20:20	trinque	shit it's effectively 50 in the states too
20:20	trinque	danielpbarron: ^
20:21	justJanne	and life savings
20:21	justJanne	and retirement funds
20:21	jurov	danielpbarron: you will get separated from your money either way
20:21	trinque	and that's not counting the yearly evaporation of weath through currency debasement
20:21	danielpbarron	what do you mean it includes life savings?
20:21	justJanne	retirement funds, sorry
20:21	justJanne	translation is hard ;P
20:21	trinque	danielpbarron: people can't think for themselves and store away for the future
20:21	cazalla	justJanne, ya know what shit won't be there when you're older, right?
20:21	danielpbarron	right but how does it include that if it's taxes? the government forces you to have a savings plan?
20:21	trinque	so you just breed an irresponsible generation of fools and somehow those same fools don't inhabit the govt and make sure everyone has savings
20:21	justJanne	kinda, but not.
20:22	*	trinque pulls himself away
20:22	mats	i get that you grew up in a soft place, and believe all folks deserve a fair shot at doing whatever it is they feel
20:22	mats	its a beautiful notion. its also not going to happen unless we go post-scarcity, upon which we will revisit the whole thing
20:22	danielpbarron	except it's a very specific shot as per what the normal people voted on
20:22	justJanne	there are some laws: (a) every insurance has to provide a basic plan for the same price, (b) everyone has to have at least this plan, or more
20:22	mats	'star trek' is a hell for some folks.
20:22	trinque	I'll prefer my firefly class vessel thank you
20:23	mats	yer a leaf on the wind
20:23	jurov	justJanne: do you know what this nordic model did to one Eric Naggum?
20:23	justJanne	mats: Star Trek is heaven, and an amazing solution. Although I’m thinking DS9 Star Trek, not TOS Star Trek
20:23	assbot	AMAZING COMPANY!
20:23	mats	'solution'
20:23	trinque	mats: goddamn when jayne tears up over his very own riot
20:23	trinque	best tv there ever was
20:23	mats	replace with fantasy, man.
20:24	justJanne	mats: DS9-Star Trek is pretty much real.
20:24	danielpbarron	no wonder you think this can work; you saw it work on TV!
20:24	mats	trinque: its good stuff, i've watched every ep prob a half dozen times
20:24	justJanne	with a combination of free trade (think Quark), and basic life enough for everyone
20:24	danielpbarron	you know star trek is a work of fiction, right? those were all a bunch of professional liars
20:24	justJanne	yes, ofc.
20:24	danielpbarron	i don't think you fully grasp that
20:24	mats	you want free trade, but no monopolies or oligopolies.
20:25	justJanne	although, tbh, when watching politicians speak, you ask yourself who is the larger liar
20:25	danielpbarron	you're the one advocating for politicians
20:25	justJanne	mats: yes.
20:25	justJanne	read the nordic model again ;P
20:25	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29900 @ 0.00027017 = 8.0781 BTC [-]
20:25	mats	nordic model works because you live in a universe that appears utterly detached from economic reality
20:26	justJanne	the idea is that you have basic life just enough for everyone available,
20:26	jurov	danielpbarron: so you get to keep all your money, i ask again?
20:26	justJanne	and then you have a highly competitive, almost unrestricted market for the rest
20:26	danielpbarron	what money?
20:26	mats	because, well, benefits of superior geography.
20:26	jurov	danielpbarron: since you so hate taxes
20:27	mats	where the fuck are you going to raise capital for basic income in somalia?
20:27	jurov	mats leave that to billg
20:27	mats	somalia's not so different from the rest of the world. quite a bit ahead of its time, really
20:27	danielpbarron	justJanne, people who fall on hard times should be compelled into slavery by their more productive neighbors; they should not get to treat the whole community like their undeserved slave
20:28	danielpbarron	jurov, all but 0.1% of it :p
20:28	justJanne	you misuse the word "community"
20:28	justJanne	you can only live, and work, because of the people around you
20:28	mats	shall we talk about monopolies that benefit the commoners?
20:28	justJanne	and the same way the other way round
20:28	danielpbarron	no, I can work and live despite the people around me
20:28	justJanne	ah, the good old "I can live in a cave" defense
20:29	justJanne	I wonder how you’d do without the people taking away your trash, the people putting out the fires, the people cleaning your streets
20:29	danielpbarron	there wouldn't be streets if it were just me
20:29	danielpbarron	the situation would be so entirely different as to be impossible to compare
20:30	mats	lets use the US Postal Service as a model. something like 200 junk mailers are responsible for pumping $billions into the thing, and they pay a pretty penny to be able to shit in your box at commercial rates (in US, cost of letter is $0.49 -- junk mailers pay 5x that)
20:30	justJanne	let’s talk about different, benefitial monopolies.
20:31	mats	without junk mailers, we'd be paying several dollars apiece just to send letters. DHL, FedEx, ... simply couldn't exist without the USPS in USA
20:31	justJanne	nah, not really.
20:31	mats	because they are responsible for last mile delivery in many cases.
20:31	mats	yes, absolutely really.
20:31	justJanne	DHL makes most of its profit in one single place.
20:31	justJanne	in the place where Deutsche Post DHL has its main business:
20:31	justJanne	parcel and delivery service in Europe
20:32	justJanne	yes, they can transport a package for 20$ across the continent over night, and make a profit.
20:32	justJanne	sadly, the workers make nothing more than basic income from it
20:33	danielpbarron	sadly? why is that sad?
20:33	jurov	yes, raise minimal wages, fire everyone, replace with machines
20:33	justJanne	no,
20:33	justJanne	it is sad because under your assumptions those people shouldn’t work at all
20:34	justJanne	they make no more money,
20:34	justJanne	and spend their time!
20:34	mats	this is exactly how it is in the US.
20:34	justJanne	Then why do they still work?
20:34	mats	they don't.
20:35	mats	~8mn draw supplementary security income, for example.
20:35	mats	folks in various programs draw $300-600/mo in govt kindness, and being worthless as they are,
20:35	justJanne	So, it's better to provide straight out subsidies than to have minimum wage?
20:35	justJanne	A minimum wage might encourage the company to actually be more efficient.
20:36	mats	would rather take it than work at McDonalds for just shy of a thousand bux a month
20:36	mats	subsidies AND minimum wages are a shit idea.
20:37	mats	you follow? let the market set the conditions.
20:37	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79500 @ 0.00026941 = 21.4181 BTC [-]
20:37	justJanne	Minimum wage doesn't hurt the market.
20:37	danielpbarron	justJanne, a minimum wage prices the cheap labor out of the market (the company will prefer not to hire them at all)
20:38	justJanne	Yes.
20:38	mats	you're high if you think setting a price floor in a market doesn't unduly affect market conditions
20:38	danielpbarron	so instead of making [not enough money], they will make 0.
20:39	mats	its time to give up the childish fantasies and carefully reexamine your beliefs
20:39	jurov	And high rents and other life costs won't "unduly affect market conditions"?
20:39	jurov	Pls explain
20:39	*	BingoBoingo still imagining tumblr folk brewing their own Laudnum. If opiate abuse is already straining the fiat world so...
20:40	justJanne	The median German pays less money for health care than the median US person.
20:40	justJanne	You pay more. And get less.
20:40	justJanne	You have higher taxes,
20:40	justJanne	And less free education or healthcare.
20:40	justJanne	and less welfare.
20:40	danielpbarron	i don't think anyone here is taking the side that the U.S. is a good example of how things should be
20:41	justJanne	It's not a childish fantasy of it's the currently best working system.
20:41	justJanne	If you want total anarchy, go to somalia, they live it.
20:41	BingoBoingo	Nah, go to Ferguson. They have community solidarity!!!
20:41	danielpbarron	it's a population that is still only a couple generations off from having the crap kicked out of it
20:41	justJanne	And if you break your leg and can't work for a month, you starve to death.
20:42	mats	jurov: you addressing me there with the quote?
20:42	jurov	mats, yes
20:42	danielpbarron	justJanne, I'm all for keeping people alive that would have otherwise starved to death. They just gotta be humbled by the experience; they aren't entitled to the help.
20:42	justJanne	They are.
20:43	justJanne	Because they played before 59% taxes for others.
20:43	justJanne	*50%
20:43	mats	jurov: i don't follow. so, because rent is high, folks should get a min wage/basic income
20:43	jurov	no mats. i'm saying you're going to be separated from your money either way
20:44	danielpbarron	justJanne, the point being, there are more solutions besides "let starve to death" and "steal from everyone to keep them alive"
20:44	jurov	so it does not make sense to argue either way
20:44	justJanne	danielpbarron: it's not stealing.
20:44	justJanne	If you want, you can move to Togo, or Monsanto City, or the Bahamas.
20:45	justJanne	And, as you stated, you deserve to be punished for being born here.
20:45	mats	it does matter, because govt involvement destroys price efficiency
20:45	justJanne	Not really true, either.
20:45	justJanne	It is often true,
20:45	mats	cost of living being high or wutever is immaterial, i think.
20:45	justJanne	But not necessary.
20:46	jurov	mats, you're not the first nor last fantsaizing of system without "govt involvement"
20:46	justJanne	Reminds me of Deutsche Bahn. A large railway company. Everything was fine, perfectly on time, cheap, profitable.
20:46	jurov	somehow, nothign came out of that
20:46	BingoBoingo	Eh, Monsanto's no so bad. The only problem with glyphosate is it doesn't always kill plants dead enough.
20:46	justJanne	Then they went to stock market and became a private company.
20:46	justJanne	Now Deutsche Bahn is slow, never on time, expensive, and not much more profitable either.
20:48	justJanne	Every. Single. Time. A governmentally owned institution got sold to a US investor they either closed down 2 days later, became shit, or just expensive.
		↖
20:48	justJanne	Every. Time.
20:48	mats	i recommend a stint as a govt employee
		↖
20:48	jurov	justJanne: it was govt involvement, dotcha know? :DDDD
20:48	danielpbarron	i think the key words in that story are "US investor"
20:49	justJanne	I don't care if the government owns the trains, as long as they are 100% on time, cheap, and fast.
20:49	danielpbarron	even if they are sometimes used to haul off political dissidents?
20:50	justJanne	That is not a part of the discussion.
20:50	jurov	lol, as if private enterprises never hauled political dissidents
20:50	justJanne	If the government rents a train for that (like Hitler did, the companies profited heavily) or if they own them (like the GDR did), changes nothing.
20:51	justJanne	But a governmental monopoly is always better than a private monopoly.
20:52	jurov	that's very bad statement
20:52	justJanne	Not really.
20:52	danielpbarron	that can't be true, and only appears to be because you use the united states as your example of the alternative
20:52	jurov	i have personal memories of govt monopolies in czechoslovakia
20:53	justJanne	And? Were they replaced by private competition or a private monopoly?
20:53	jurov	depends, some. but the is not the problem
20:53	justJanne	Assuming no corruption,
20:54	jurov	when everything is govt monopoly people who need autonomy, mastery and purpose suffer badly
20:54	justJanne	The private monopoly will have an incentive to provide the worst service possible, at the highest possible price.
20:54	justJanne	Yes.
20:54	justJanne	Most of the things need to be a competition, others need to be nonprofit monopolies.
20:55	danielpbarron	what's so bad about "the worst service possible" anyway ?
20:55	justJanne	Like the railway tracks, those can be nonprofit monopolies, while dozens of rail operators can rent them.
20:55	justJanne	danielpbarron: because that's shit?
20:55	justJanne	You want trains that operate every 20 minutes, at 240km/h, for 19€ across Europe,
20:55	danielpbarron	no, your totalitiarian government that forces me to raise my kids the normal way is what's bad
20:56	justJanne	Not shitty stuff.
20:56	justJanne	danielpbarron: you aren't forced to. You can also raise your children at home, ofc.
20:56	justJanne	At full pay.
20:56	mike_c	<+justJanne> Assuming no corruption, << this is where we enter star trek land?
20:56	justJanne	mike_c: kinda. But corruption makes discussion always useless.
		↖
20:56	mike_c	exactly
20:57	justJanne	Especially as the amount of corruption is very different on where you are, and when.
20:58	justJanne	But again, the idea of the Nordic model is huge personal freedom, at the same time a stable society that provides a great basis for everyone.
20:58	justJanne	And the personal freedom in the Nordic model is larger than in the US.
		↖
20:59	justJanne	Yes, somalia has more personal freedom, but again, try living there.
20:59	danielpbarron	you keep comparing your thing to the US
20:59	justJanne	Because the US is a reference point as worst case civilized country.
		↖
20:59	danielpbarron	shouldn't you compare your thing to my thing? (the thing i'm proposing)
21:00	justJanne	So, perfect free anarchy?
21:00	justJanne	Can you provide a real life example?
21:00	danielpbarron	The Most Serene Republic
21:00	danielpbarron	this channel is the example
21:00	justJanne	We don't accept fictional systems here, only ones that exist in reality.
21:00	justJanne	For this discussion.
21:01	danielpbarron	that's rich coming from a trekkie
21:01	justJanne	As everyone can claim their model would work.
21:01	BingoBoingo	To be fair Corruption is what makes the world go round
21:01	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26500 @ 0.00026779 = 7.0964 BTC [-] {2}
21:02	danielpbarron	justJanne, your model works for as long as there is fiat money to manipulate
21:02	danielpbarron	which isn't for very much longer
21:02	justJanne	Not necessarily.
21:02	justJanne	The Nordic model works without currency.
21:02	justJanne	And, tbh, here no one cares about bitcoin.
21:02	danielpbarron	but does it work with bitcoin?
21:02	justJanne	Too high transfer fees, too slow transfers.
21:02	danielpbarron	that's ok, bitcoin doesn't care about them either
21:03	justJanne	But yeah, it would work with bitcoin.
21:03	danielpbarron	but you can't get your 50% from me..
21:04	justJanne	Why not?
21:04	danielpbarron	what is there to take?
21:04	justJanne	Your employer has to send that money to the govt.
		↖
21:04	danielpbarron	nobody owns any bitcoin
21:04	justJanne	You never see the 50%
21:04	danielpbarron	suppose my employer doesn't
21:04	danielpbarron	because my employer doesn't have a physical basis of operations
21:05	justJanne	Then you will have to pay them.
21:05	danielpbarron	and he claims juristiction in the Most Serene Republic, and not your joke of a country
21:05	danielpbarron	pay them what?
21:05	danielpbarron	how do you know I have even been paid?
21:05	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 44648 @ 0.00026546 = 11.8523 BTC [-] {2}
21:05	jurov	you don't pay for shelter, food nor transport?
21:06	justJanne	If you earn money in this country, work here (physical place of employer counts), or use your money, it will be taxed.
21:06	justJanne	If you earn your money outside, only use it outside, and so on,
21:06	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 171621 @ 0.00026204 = 44.9716 BTC [-] {3}
21:06	justJanne	You are technically a tourist.
21:06	danielpbarron	why would anyone want to be based out of your country and pay 50% when they can be based out of The Most Serene Republic and pay only 0.1% ?
21:07	jurov	will The Most Serene Republic cover your medical expenses in case of accident?
		↖
21:07	justJanne	The question is:
21:07	danielpbarron	jurov, those services will be provided by WoT members eventually I hope
21:07	jurov	well, i'm not holding my breath there
21:07	justJanne	Why should they live in the serene republic, where your insurance can run off with all your money, when they can live here, and have guaranteed healthcare?
21:08	danielpbarron	it's not a matter of where to live, but where to claim juristiction
21:08	justJanne	Nah.
21:08	justJanne	Where they do their physical work, rent a flat, but food — those things are taxes.
21:09	danielpbarron	but the reason is: keep 49.9% of your income and use the savings to buy healthcare later if you need it
21:09	justJanne	*taxed
21:09	justJanne	And what if you can't afford it at that point?
		↖
21:09	justJanne	Your system is flawed.
21:09	danielpbarron	then i become a slave or die i guess
21:09	justJanne	It helps make the rich richer,
21:09	danielpbarron	the rich should be richer
21:09	justJanne	And the poor poorer.
21:09	danielpbarron	the poor should be poorer
21:09	justJanne	But society is people,
21:09	justJanne	And people deserve to be treated equal.
21:09	danielpbarron	no they don't
21:10	justJanne	Then go live in the US.
21:10	danielpbarron	I do
21:10	danielpbarron	it's not what you imagine it is
21:10	justJanne	In a few years, the US will have reached the level of freedom that somalia has.
21:11	BingoBoingo	"people" kinda suck http://www.reddit.com/r/fatpeoplestories/comments/366c7c/tlc_my_ass/
21:12	justJanne	Tbh, I like cities where you have to use the bike.
21:12	justJanne	With less than 47% of the people owning cars, and everyone using bikes, public transport, and walking, the amount of overweight people reduces drastically.
		↖
21:14	justJanne	Okay, bbl, it's 3am
21:14	danielpbarron	i ride a bike everywhere in the spring/summer
21:14	BingoBoingo	Bikes don't have a clear niche where the really beat pedestrianism, motorcarriages, or rocket plane
21:14	justJanne	They do.
21:14	danielpbarron	oh they clearly beat walking
21:15	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 79745 @ 0.00026136 = 20.8422 BTC [-]
21:15	BingoBoingo	I dunno anything beats walking.
		↖
21:15	jurov	!up joshbuddy
21:15	justJanne	If you have small narrow streets, distances between 10 and 15 km, and a huge amount of people on tiny space,
		↖
21:15	justJanne	Bike is the only solution. (Or public transport)
21:15	BingoBoingo	Or walk longer, speed is overrated
21:16	danielpbarron	i bike amongst a sea of cars (ct shoreline gets crazy in the summer)
21:16	justJanne	Not helpful at 10-15km distance.
21:16	BingoBoingo	That's not really all that far on foot
21:16	justJanne	Almost all parcel companies, pizza delivery services, etc use bikes Jere for that reason.
21:16	justJanne	BingoBoingo: I walk that much daily, I know.
21:17	BingoBoingo	Sure
21:17	justJanne	Still it's not a distance that makes a car useful, but would be ideal for biking.
21:17	justJanne	Anyway, 3am, bbl
21:18	danielpbarron	car beats bike if money isn't a consideration
21:19	BingoBoingo	http://imperatortempus42.tumblr.com/post/119286272196/punk-con-winnieportleyrind
21:20	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 258100 @ 0.00025836 = 66.6827 BTC [-] {7}
21:27	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 72000 @ 0.00026137 = 18.8186 BTC [+]
21:30	BingoBoingo	!up pet_dushenski
21:30	BingoBoingo	!up pete_dushenski
21:36	pete_dushenski	oh hello world.
21:37	pete_dushenski	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=19-05-2015#1137550 << fact.
21:37	assbot	Logged on 19-05-2015 00:48:25; mats: i recommend a stint as a govt employee
21:38	pete_dushenski	a year, mebbe a year and a half is perfectly sufficient to understand the insanity-on-a-stick that is state-run anything.
21:39	mod6	all you need is one trip to the post office
21:39	pete_dushenski	canada post is actually decent.
21:40	pete_dushenski	post offices are just a special counter in a corner of pharmacies
21:41	midnightmagic	Medicine here is good too, as are government-run car insurance corps which have superior prices to private enterprises elsewhere in Canada.
21:43	midnightmagic	Stats canada provides superior-quality reports to private enterprise. Environment Canada is the source for pretty much all weather everywhere in Canada.. Health Canada has very little politics in it, necessarily.
21:44	pete_dushenski	gov-run services in canada also service relatively few people and are unforgivably expensive.
21:44	pete_dushenski	and the relative quality of their output compared to the derpy canadian private enterprises still doesn't speak to how poorly they're run.
21:45	pete_dushenski	they're mostly funded and staffed to the rafters.
21:45	pete_dushenski	and they're awful to work for if you have ambition and half a functioning intellect.
21:50	mats	i witnessed a pretty serious amount of theft and graft, even at the company level in .mil
21:50	mats	can't imagine the kind of devilry a bent brigade quartermaster or commander can get up to
21:52	decimation	mats: ever seen sgt bilko?
21:52	mats	nah, heard of it though, i'll add it to ma list
21:54	decimation	it's funny. the troupe of the corrupt supply sergeant probably has a good basis in fact
21:55	decimation	of course, 'corrupt' can mean 'good at acquiring stuff without respect to derpy rules'
21:55	mats	it absolutely does
21:55	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 77750 @ 0.00027022 = 21.0096 BTC [+] {2}
21:56	decimation	"Stats canada provides superior-quality reports to private enterprise." < what private enterprise provides reports on derpy bureaucracy?
21:59	pete_dushenski	lol right. "we make the best reports on the things we ate for breakfast. they're quite unparalleled in detail and accuracy."
21:59	mats	in my short stint, i shit you not, things like uparmored vehicles, munitions, and all sorts of tactical gear (e.g. night vision goggles, range finders, body armor) vanished into thin air, leaving the commander on the hook
22:00	mats	this occurred under the management of three supply dudes, each of them who successively transferred to another unit before shit hit the fan, and to my knowledge nobody's been locked up yet
		↖
22:01	decimation	mats did you see that econtalk link I posted about lying in the military
22:01	mats	no
22:02	decimation	http://www.econtalk.org/archives/2015/04/leonard_wong_on.html
22:03	mats	yup
22:03	mats	there is this thing known as "zero defect" officers
		↖
22:03	decimation	yeah he talks about that
22:03	decimation	'everyone knows' they are lying
22:03	mats	because of the structure of officer corps, evaluations bear enormous weight, and you simply cannot ever fuck up
22:03	mats	because its "up or out", if you aren't worthy of a promotion according to n metrics, you gtfo
22:03	decimation	yep. Really us mil's problem is that is majorly officer heavy
22:04	decimation	if some random staff officer can demand that every 2lt must sign for whatever derpy training or equipment kind invalidates the 'chain of command'
22:04	decimation	which is imaginary anyway
22:06	mats	well, in that instance, company/batt/brigade cdr is responsible for managing an effective command environment
22:07	decimation	sure, and rather than trusting in his judgment, usg sees fit to shower him with thousands of 'requirements'
22:07	mats	the ugly status of officer corps is why i didn't stay in ROTC in univ
22:08	decimation	they talk the talk, but the actual 'walk' is 'play the bureaucratic/democratic politics game'
22:17	mats	the skimming going on was incredible lol
22:18	mats	even the cooks were doing it
22:18	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 101000 @ 0.0002657 = 26.8357 BTC [-] {2}
22:19	danielpbarron	!up O2made
22:19	mats	fuckers would feed us pasta, one or two meatballs, and week old salad as often as they could
22:19	mats	meanwhile they pocket 70% of what the unit actually allotted for a meal
22:21	decimation	mats: I shudder to think about what the rest of usg is up to
22:22	mats	pallets of MREs would regularly go missing at the end of field exercises
22:22	decimation	pallets
22:22	decimation	I guess you could sell on ebay
22:22	mats	which is why you can buy MREs for three bux when USG pays twelve per iirc
22:23	mats	yeah eBay
		~ 15 minutes ~
22:38	mats	http://www.ebay.com/itm/2-Cases-of-Military-MREs-1-A-and-1-B-6-2014-insp-date-24meals-/141611644330
22:39	mats	check out the seller's profile
22:39	mats	this guy definitely knows a bent supply dude
22:39	decimation	one wonders why the hell usg doesn't investigate this kind of stuff
22:39	decimation	I guess they are 'too busy'
22:40	BingoBoingo	Guy seems awfully close to Leonard Wood
22:40	mats	fort lost in the woods -- never again.
22:43	*	mats fondly remembers training event where we were forced to go MOPP 3 (overboots, gas mask, most of the NBC gear) with body armor and run around the track on a summer afternoon
22:44	decimation	I had a friend who went to 'real' MOPP training - he was suited in a room with VX gas.
22:45	decimation	he said it took several hours to donn/duff the gear
22:45	mats	i have a hard time believing VX was used in a training event
22:45	decimation	he might have been bullshitting
		↖
22:45	BingoBoingo	This weekend I was traveling the still more southern parts of illinois, saw the first wild armadillo I've seen east of the missippi
22:45	mats	when you can just dissolve a tablet of CS in a spray bottle
22:46	decimation	http://www.gettyimages.com/detail/news-photo/army-soldiers-participate-in-mopp-gear-exchange-their-final-news-photo/1940525
22:47	BingoBoingo	The wild of armadillo was of course in it's natural state dead on the side of the road
22:47	decimation	"Soldiers from all branches of the Armed Forces, civilian first responders, and some foreign military attend the chemical school for training in various types of chemical detection and survival through several courses including practice in a hot zone where actual toxic agents such as the Sarin and VX nerve agents."
22:47	decimation	you couldn't pay me enough for that shit
22:47	mats	guys in the chemical corps were some of the most crazy ive ever met
22:48	decimation	there's no doubt that a 'real' chemical attack is gonna result in alot of deaths
22:48	decimation	the game is just to minimize it I guess
22:49	mats	chemical weapons are only useful for propaganda
		↖
22:50	mats	absurdly expensive compared to the cost of a 5.56 round
22:51	decimation	under the right conditions I guess they could kill alot of people
22:52	decimation	the main problem with chemical weapons is the 'moral debt' they incur
22:52	decimation	you start gasing the enemy's cities, he can nuke/gas yours
23:04	trinque	antisocialist thread went about as I thought
23:04	trinque	glad I drank wine at ben_vulpes' office instead
23:04	trinque	:D
23:06	decimation	I suspect one cannot be against 'basic income' and 'insurance for all' without being a nazi in modern germany
		↖
23:07	trinque	yeah I'm sure that informs the "modern" sensibilities
23:07	trinque	dad beat mom, son is a radical feminist
23:11	mats	fun fact: there is a Turing-complete printer control VM in the winders kernel
23:12	*	trinque autisms in the corner
23:12	decimation	http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Europe/2010/0302/US-grants-German-homeschoolers-asylum.-Will-others-follow "But German media have portrayed the case as an insult to the German system. Many Germans are shocked to learn that 1.5 million children in the US are homeschooled and that the practice is legal in countries like France, Italy, and Ireland.
23:13	trinque	mats: windows' spooler thing has a language in it?
23:13	decimation	^ more nordic freedom
23:14	mats	trinque: yep.
23:15	trinque	well that's good.
23:16	trinque	this extensibility thing is braindamage
23:16	trinque	dev is insecure about whether his app covers all cases so he does things like that, builds a goddamn scripting layer into the thing because you know printing needs that
23:17	trinque	then 5 years later that's a part of history and you can't change that, who are you?
23:17	mats	another fun fact: there's also a Turing-complete PostScript VM in the kernel
23:17	trinque	NT or linux?
23:17	mats	^___^
23:17	mats	NT.
23:17	BingoBoingo	I thought you were going to say both
23:17	trinque	history will hold that Windows was specifically intended for maximal didling
23:17	trinque	*diddling
23:18	mats	i dunno all that much about linux tbh
23:19	trinque	BingoBoingo: this probably means CUPS is too
23:19	trinque	postscript is probably itself turing complete
23:19	trinque	yup it is
23:19	BingoBoingo	CUPS is weird. Sometimes it just works, othertimes catches fire.
23:20	trinque	the perception is probably due to myriad shitty filters and ppd's by printer manufacturers
23:20	mats	you'd think there's not a good reason for the kernel to need PostScript
23:20	trinque	apparently there are good reasons for all kinds of rape these days
23:20	mats	but... you need it for printer stuff and fonts
23:21	mats	for the enterprising d00d there r a number of 0days in there
23:22	mats	go get em before server 2003 EOL
23:22	trinque	nah after's even better
23:22	trinque	you know nobody that fields that crap upgrades anything
23:23	trinque	next time you're in a restaurant try to spot the XP running on the terminals
23:23	trinque	I've seen 2k
23:25	trinque	praise to the guy still using the DOS point of sale... I bet nobody knows how to break into that anymore
23:30	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20108 @ 0.00025339 = 5.0952 BTC [-]
23:33	mats	uh huh

---