#alethepedia | 2020-10-01

"I would imagine many of them would also hypocritically denounce the explicit espousal of racist ideologies. With racism, you don't say it, you just do it."

01:55

"Rock stars live in true whining heaven. They can whine incessantly (check out Bono whining about Third World debt---he thinks starving Africans who borrowed wealth from other nations should not have to pay it back; in the meantime, the RIAA sues 12-year-old honor students if they download Bono's recordings) while still scoring an endless parade of high-quality chicks."

01:55

"I wonder---does Bono think starving Africans have a right to steal his music? Or should they only be free to steal from banks?"

01:55

The writer is good at noticing connections between events.

~ 7 hours 54 minutes ~

09:50

!s danimal

09:50

5 results

09:50

http://hardwick.fi/ilkka/d8.htm

09:50

Danimal Archive

09:50

...Posts *Danimal* archive, part 8 *Danimal* archive, part 7 *Danimal* archive, part 6 *Danimal* archive, part 5 *Danimal* archive, part 4 *Danimal* archive, part 3 Who is the *Danimal*? *Danimal* archive, part 2 *Danimal* archive...

09:50

http://hardwick.fi/ilkka/16v0830.htm

09:50

Sixteen Volts: Lucky Ilkka

09:50

...*Danimal* Archive, since next to The *Danimal* I am merely a pale shadow, hardly worthy of even mentioning in the same paragraph.The *Danimal*...

09:50

...Detection Crooked Timber *Danimal* *Danimal* Archive Diggdot EconLog...

09:50

All results can be found at http://paste.deedbot.org/?id=Z26A

~ 25 minutes ~

10:16

Seems to be the coiner of the term "sexual marketplace"

~ 1 hours 26 minutes ~

11:43

gregorynyssa: see also.

~ 2 hours 44 minutes ~

14:27

it looks like Ilkka has some views rather similar to those of Dr Jordan Peterson.

14:28

I only realized after reading part of that ilkka.txt file.

14:35

gregorynyssa: not familiar w/ peterson

14:37

( oblig: various old threads re the finn )

14:37

so this author is a Finnish person living in Canada?

14:38

what year were these anecdotes from, if I might ask?

14:38

Peterson is a member of the "Intellectual Dork Web"

14:39

gregorynyssa: apologies if sowed confusion : danimal was pseudonym of an american, who lived in iirc ohio. he was active on usenet in early 2000s. ilkka kokkarinen, otoh, a finn, emigrated to canada and to this day (afaik) teaches comp sci. was censored twice, once sued and reinstated, 2nd time -- apparently perma-hushed

14:40

kokkarinen preserved some of danimal's usenet articles on his (long-gone, but variously mirrored) www .

14:42

had also a book of short pieces, based on his www. was censored. the link on asciilifeform's www which formerly went to kokkarinen's www, currently points to warez ocr txt of that book.

14:54

that is interesting to hear. I wonder why he was sued..

14:57

I grew up near the border with Ontario, and had visited there quite a few times.

14:57

never studied or worked in Canada, though.

15:01

gregorynyssa: he wasn't sued -- was sacked from his professorship. sued (successfully) for reinstatement. 2nd time -- nfi. 'made offer that can't refuse'(tm) presumably.

15:03

that makes sense. similar incidents had happened, back at UIUC.

15:06

I am not necessarily in general agreement with all of Mencius Moldbug's views,

15:06

but the man's writings really woke me up to the power wielded by universities.

15:07

gregorynyssa: fella wasn't particularly consistent. so impossible to 'agree w/ all'

15:07

gregorynyssa: he was also, in asciilifeform's pov, a laughable ignoramus re: all sovok-related subjs

15:07

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000507 << glad I am not the only one who noticed that. he got several historical details wrong as well.

15:07

Logged on 2020-10-01 15:07:01 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: fella wasn't particularly consistent. so impossible to 'agree w/ all'

15:08

(entirely typical in anglo world)

15:08

not merely 'several' lol

15:09

hamstrung quite effectively by his ineptitude/sloth for study of languages.

15:09

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000508 << what would you say are the main ways that the English-speaking world mis-understands Russia or the USSR?

15:09

Logged on 2020-10-01 15:07:35 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: he was also, in asciilifeform's pov, a laughable ignoramus re: all sovok-related subjs

15:10

gregorynyssa: picture if someone were to ask you same q re china ! would 200yrs be enuff to answer ?

15:13

well, I don't think most Chinese understand that much about China.

15:13

19th and 20th century events led to severe discontinuities.

15:14

the study of ancient history and language even now is heavily dependent upon Western Sinologists

15:15

gregorynyssa: the english historians (and pretentious amateurs) focus almost exclusively on the discontinuities (given as these were events w/ anglo involvement) but entirely forget re the 1000+ (or in case of cn, 5000+) yrs of entirely divergent cultural hist.

15:17

of course there are huge misconceptions, which are partly driven by ideology. not just transient

15:18

political ideology but also subtle philosophical assumptions.

15:20

gregorynyssa: the most terrifying thing, to a civilization, is a 'pepsi' -- i.e. alternative model that folx might defect to, because in some (sometimes many) respects is superior. then, 'carthago delenda est', the disinfo is slathered on in kilometre-deep strata, and even very idea of honest picture of what took place becomes pipe dream

15:21

that is a good way to describe it. I see it with China as well. one of the worst

15:21

misconceptions lies in the belief that Americans (Canadians) primarily differ from

15:21

the Asian countries in terms of their Individualism, whereas other countries espouse

15:22

a mentality of Collectivism. what ends up being classified as Individual versus Collective

15:22

is completely inconsistent and subjective.

15:23

the anglo folx are very fond of these reductions 'to buzzword', but then often very frustrated when it does not give accurate model of reality

15:25

the 'individualism' of 'the west' for instance is moar or less a fiction : the 'western civilized' man who needs capital (or simply new auto, without which he cannot, generally, earn bread) is forced to deal w/ banks and borrow at interest. the 'collectivist orc' can borrow from ext. family at 0%.

15:26

can give plenty of similar examples. under brand of 'individualism' is pushed instead atomization. where yer 1 on 1 w/ 'institutions' as a lone and generally powerless peon.

15:34

Chinese people are still searching for a style of (private) corporate management which

15:35

fits with their way of thinking. at present most companies are managed in a rather

15:35

haphazard (or else family-centric) manner.

15:37

the most successful corporations have been those run by persons with pro-American views

15:37

and heavily staffed by employees who had gone to college in America.

15:38

cf. Huawei, Baidu, Xiaomi, Alibaba

15:43

I have been trying to learn more about the modernization of Japan

15:44

and how they had managed to invent their own customs in response to modern needs

15:55

gregorynyssa: japan -- 2 catastrophic modernizations. (1) upper 19th c.: meiji/civil wars. (2) conquest by usa in '45.

15:57

( future historians, i suspect, will also include the 'control shot' with which usa finished off jp economically in '91 . )

15:57

yep. 1866 and 1945. my intention was to study both of those.

15:59

I am not very good with economics but would love to understand the mysterious events of the late 1980s crisis as well.

16:01

gregorynyssa: the anglos pulled their usual 'integrate'em into (controlled) 'global market', then kill'em w/ financial machinations' stunt.

16:01

China sent its best students to Japan during the 1980s for graduate studies, and many of them, if not most, ended up defecting to America.

16:02

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000544 << so basically, the Yeltsin era?

16:02

Logged on 2020-10-01 16:01:01 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: the anglos pulled their usual 'integrate'em into (controlled) 'global market', then kill'em w/ financial machinations' stunt.

16:02

gregorynyssa: admittedly asciilifeform not a cn expert. but afaik cn culture suffers from severe 'worship of wealth' as concept; and catastrophically underdeveloped concept of 'motherland' (in sense of 'not to betray')

16:03

ideal victim for offers to defect, esp. from usa at the peak of its hegemony.

16:03

most productive su defections were also in late '80s/early '90s.

16:04

gregorynyssa: and yes entirely same type of trick as perpetrated via fingerpuppets yeltsin & co. in same period.

16:05

here's an entertaining cultural anecdote. ever see american film 'home alone' ?

16:06

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000548 << this is a major problem, albeit with some nuances. modern Chinese culture is severely lacking in what might be termed the "confessional" or "credal" quality.

16:06

Logged on 2020-10-01 16:02:28 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: admittedly asciilifeform not a cn expert. but afaik cn culture suffers from severe 'worship of wealth' as concept; and catastrophically underdeveloped concept of 'motherland' (in sense of 'not to betray')

16:06

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000552 << yep. I remember that film.

16:06

Logged on 2020-10-01 16:05:37 asciilifeform: here's an entertaining cultural anecdote. ever see american film 'home alone' ?

16:06

recently asciilifeform saw a thread , from not many months ago (!) , where buncha idjits in ru ~even today~ think that most folx in usa live like the 'average' family pictured in that film.

16:06

in 1990 when film came out, and ~nobody had been to usa -- was at least vaguely plausible. but picture, today!

16:07

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000557 << in the Clinton era that life was still possible, provided you had a decent education.

16:07

Logged on 2020-10-01 16:06:19 asciilifeform: recently asciilifeform saw a thread , from not many months ago (!) , where buncha idjits in ru ~even today~ think that most folx in usa live like the 'average' family pictured in that film.

16:07

gregorynyssa: 'possible' is a broad word.

16:08

gregorynyssa: the house which was setting for the film, most recently iirc sold for ~$10m.

16:08

(and not merely 'historic' interest, typical price for the surroundings, allegedly)

16:09

or how about where in start of film, the father buys 1st class transatlantic tickets for 19 (iirc) people...

16:09

but like any good 'stage magic' sleight of hand, audience largely did not parse these details consciously. even the intended, usa audience, for the most part.

16:10

the upper-middle class in the USA (top 10%) still lives pretty well, to my knowledge

16:10

'80s-early90s hollywood spew re 'middle class' was being churned out specifically when the oxygen to said class was being actively cut off.

16:11

intelligent people across the world still immigrate to America in the race to enter

16:11

that narrow 10%. to have a spacious home and two cars, etc.

16:12

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000567 << the broader "middle class" is already gone, no question.

16:12

Logged on 2020-10-01 16:10:36 asciilifeform: '80s-early90s hollywood spew re 'middle class' was being churned out specifically when the oxygen to said class was being actively cut off.

16:14

gregorynyssa: most of usa's 'spacious home and cars' people are in abject debt , and 1-2 missed paycheques from penury.

16:14

this was not the case 50y ago.

16:16

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2018/06/the-birth-of-a-new-american-aristocracy/559130/

16:16

and naturally can't speak for erryone, but asciilifeform , per Official stats, closer to '5%' than 10 in usa , but does not live in anyffin resembling the setting of film 'home alone' . (but at least not in debt..)

16:17

I had found the thesis of this article to be quite convincing. ie. that while the broader "middle class" is gone, a 5-10% "mandarin class" possessing comfortable lifestyles has in fact become enshrined.

16:19

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000572 << wow that sounds terrible, and far worse than the depiction from the Atlantic article.

16:19

Logged on 2020-10-01 16:14:37 asciilifeform: gregorynyssa: most of usa's 'spacious home and cars' people are in abject debt , and 1-2 missed paycheques from penury.

16:19

gregorynyssa: imho the focus on incomes is organized misdirection.

16:19

the actual class determinant is 'income other than from work'. but these naturally not publicly visible.

16:21

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000580 << I see what you mean. the "rentier" class which you mentioned in your review of MPEx.

16:21

Logged on 2020-10-01 16:19:49 asciilifeform: the actual class determinant is 'income other than from work'. but these naturally not publicly visible.

16:23

indeed.

16:24

so any time you see discussion of 'incomes', as if ALL income were somehow a scalar, and 100k/y from dividends were somehow the same as 100k of programmer -- you know yer dealing with a work of deception.

16:26

( this , largely, is the algo whereby rentiers excel at using naive labourers as willing human shields. )

16:30

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000568 << see also re mechanics of 'sausage emigration' .

16:30

Logged on 2020-10-01 16:11:35 gregorynyssa: intelligent people across the world still immigrate to America in the race to enter

16:30

(trilema) 2017-06-08 asciilifeform: mircea_popescu: i can't comment on ro emigres, but with su world there was a lulzy twist : 1st wave (1970s -- largely j000z!11) wrote home, 'i'ma full professor and it rocks, come on over', 2nd wave went, to discover that market -- glut, and hello cab

16:30

(ossasepia) 2019-08-25 asciilifeform: diana_coman: there is added vexation (esp. among emigres & potential emigres) because in initial stages of progression 'from prof to hobo' there is typically a phase of stockholm syndrome, where the 'patient' is convinced (and will loudly proclaim) that he is 'success'

~ 47 minutes ~

17:18

*

thimbronion would like to see a movie about how immigrants *actually* achieve living standards approaching middle class - for ex. middle aged chinese lady comes to US as "student", earns 300k tax free working in a massage parlour, secures citizenship via artificial insemination from a sperm bank, buys home with cash.

17:31

The movie should be called "American Dream."

~ 35 minutes ~

18:07

thimbronion: the key diff. vs the traditional fantasy, is that to impress modern audience, gotta get the fuck ~out~ of usa w/ that 300 or watever k . otherwise 'the devil's gold turns to leaves.'

18:07

(ossasepia) 2019-08-25 asciilifeform: re 'folx in usa w/ plenty of money', admittedly i dun hang out with w. buffett . but also met people who ~think~ 'plenty of money' , and as a rule the 'plenty' can evaporate overnight ( break a leg; go a coupla months w/out work ; tax collector decides you didn't pay enuff ; 9000 other 'surprise' and 'poof' . )

18:10

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000592 << it seems to me that one of the greatest prob. with America is the especially pronounced dichotomy between neighborhoods which are affordable and those which are safe from gang-violence.

18:10

Logged on 2020-10-01 18:07:36 asciilifeform: thimbronion: the key diff. vs the traditional fantasy, is that to impress modern audience, gotta get the fuck ~out~ of usa w/ that 300 or watever k . otherwise 'the devil's gold turns to leaves.'

18:11

asciilifeform: Many, apparantly, are unaware of this last step and consider returning to the home country (at least in the case of China) a worst case scenario.

18:12

Somehow they saw all the movies, but didn't see clips of the LA riots, etc.

18:12

gregorynyssa: it aint as if there were no gangsters in usa, but imho problem is 99% fictional (i.e. monster w/ which to frighten 'whitebread' suburbanites into crowding in high-tax districts and paying for mega-inflated real estate there )

18:13

there is also a tendency to confuse california-problem for whole-usa-problem

18:14

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/alethepedia/2020-10-01#1000599 << well, California, Washington, other Washington, and Boston basically -- which is also where most Chinese immigrants have their sights set upon.

18:14

Logged on 2020-10-01 18:13:46 asciilifeform: there is also a tendency to confuse california-problem for whole-usa-problem

18:22

but I totally agree, the ROI of living in those places is in fact very poor.

18:23

unless you are someone who derives immense pleasure from socializing with the sort of people who already live in those places.

18:24

*

asciilifeform would not live there even for money.

18:24