#pest | 2023-06-10

jonsykkel: I wonder how your editor will look like, was looking at the acme editor just for fun

~ 36 minutes ~

09:45

emac/vim/acme etc might be ok for word2003 replacment but thats not wat u need for code

09:45

they al make the same mistake of giving u a mspaint to edit 3d models

09:45

rather than a 3ds max where u can pull the vertexes and let computer do the rasterization

09:45

in hypotetical ast editor u move expressions around and let computer do whitespace indenting formating etc

09:45

0 valid reason to ever do that manualy

09:46

also, have to move hand to mouse at any point = not peak performance. i simply dont have time for that shit

09:46

tho that introduces one tricky problem to solve, often u want tree-aware movement (next/prev elt, 1lvl in/out etc), but other times u want to "point at screen" to go to a specific place

09:46

imo no good way to do without mouse

09:52

I agree on the mouse and would prefer having the big rows like Space-cadet keyboard, what I liked of acme is that it is flat and not really specific. Instead you are looking for a specific editor that does exactly and maybe only that editing, and just editing sexp for what I understood.

09:56

Maybe it's just me trying to rethinking everything at once so everything is blended together instead of pieces spread around

10:00

well, since existence of lisp makes it clear that any code (and a bunch of other stuf rly) is really a tre structure, u can use the same tool for any code/etc

10:01

so "sexp" here has a wide definition

10:01

if someone has a gun to ur head making u write js, just gota write the "renderer" for it, once. then u get the same exact interface

10:01

which is trivial, maybe unless ur doing c++ or smth

10:05

and the sexp editor needs som facilitys for editing stuf thats actualy text as well, inside strings and comments etc. so it can still be "1 piece", open .txt = same interface as editing a big string

~ 1 hours 5 minutes ~

11:11

http://zzz.st/up/EQhT2Gqy/oke.mp4

~ 15 minutes ~

11:27

:o

~ 1 hours 13 minutes ~

12:40

jonsykkel: very neat -- loox like you rediscovered xerox's structure editor

12:40

dulapbot

(asciilifeform) 2020-08-06 asciilifeform: theoretically interesting -- there were concepts in interlisp that never appeared in mit cadr + successors (bolix etc) -- e.g. the 'structure editor'

12:41

moar screenshits for the curious.

12:42

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-06-10#1026843 << mous imho entirely good for moving sexprs around (if we had w/ what)

12:42

bitbot

Logged on 2023-06-10 09:46:49 jonsykkel: imo no good way to do without mouse

12:43

the 'text file paradigm' is utter shite for structure-editable lisp tho ( as noted in ancient thread, that asciilifeform for sumreason can't immed. find, by phf et al -- e.g. comments are spuriously bound to a line of txt, rather than properly 'attached' to a sexpr )

12:44

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-06-10#1026837 << quite accurate

12:44

bitbot

Logged on 2023-06-10 09:45:27 jonsykkel: they al make the same mistake of giving u a mspaint to edit 3d models

12:46

indeed, exact conclusion i came to also, theres at least 3 diff use cases of comments: temporarily disabling code (seen in vid), attaching to a expression (rendered above or at end of line depending), and detached stand alone coment (license at top etc)

12:46

wat is needed is simply to store this aditional info along with code

12:48

1 simple way is when save file, "render" the s-expr that sbcl etc can eat, then put metadata in botom of file as a big comment

12:48

the storing is arguably 'easy part' ( e.g. in place of (launch-missiles london) , (comment (launch-missiles london)) ) -- the rendering is the tricky bit

12:51

http://logs.bitdash.io/pest/2023-06-10#1026841 << largely on account of inept programmers, mouse ended up 'good only for clicking hyperlinks'. dun have to be that way tho

12:51

bitbot

Logged on 2023-06-10 09:46:36 jonsykkel: also, have to move hand to mouse at any point = not peak performance. i simply dont have time for that shit

12:52

mous alright when ur hand is already on it, but most often mine, at least, isnt (no, its on keybord!!)

12:53

there's no getting away from the fact of people having only 2 hands

12:53

maybe if could hav eyebal tracker that works

12:53

*

asciilifeform views mouse as 'reading' gadget, not touches it when writing

12:54

jonsykkel: crapple reportedly is pushing eye trackers, imho quick path to discovering entirely new class of repetitive grunt injuries lol

12:55

ye problem arises though when writing at line20 and need to jump to line57 col46

12:56

thing is, on a properly-programmed comp, one shouldn't ever ~want~ to explicitly 'go to ln 57'

12:56

but rather 'lemme see the end of this sexpr' or 'let's see where launch-missiles is defined/used' etc

12:57

*

asciilifeform only ever 'go to ln 57' as result of idiot compile-pray-debug cycle tooling, e.g. compilers which shit out ln #s in eggogs

12:57

sure, but thats another use case, i have key bound to move between instances of symbol under cursor etc, very useful

12:57

ought be able to, somehow, do that, w/out losing context

12:58

im not talking about explicitly typing in line numbers etc

12:58

( y'know, the thing the concept of 'window' was ~originally~ for )

12:58

a

12:58

just this thing were somtimes u want to go to an exact place u are looking at with eyes

12:58

that is "far away" from cursor

12:59

right, but almost always there's a moar intelligent way to describe the place than 'far away, right-there'

12:59

i.e. one that'd req. fewer bits of input from hands

12:59

probably true

13:11

http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/pest/2023-06-10#1027281 << hold some key on kb, prog starts highlighting thing it thinks ur looking at, release key when happy, cursor jump there

↖ ↖ ↖

13:11

dulapbot

Logged on 2023-06-10 12:52:43 asciilifeform: jonsykkel: crapple reportedly is pushing eye trackers, imho quick path to discovering entirely new class of repetitive grunt injuries lol

13:12

seems like RGI avoider delux, if could have tracker that works

~ 2 hours 12 minutes ~

15:24

jonsykkel: keyboard with trackpoint like thinkpads?

15:26

imo those are horrificly slow in use, for anything else than "go 10px to the left"

15:27