Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2019-08-24 | 2019-08-26 → ↓
02:44 diana_coman jmsb hello, hang around a bit and it might happen
~ 13 hours 36 minutes ~
16:20 diana_coman hello jmsb
16:30 diana_coman shrysr_: how's the weekly report coming out?
16:39 shrysr_ diana_coman: working on it. I'm stuck deciphering the vdiff code on CH's article and was hoping to complete atleast that before posting.. I'm also not yet clear on signatures (the hash part, where the convo trailed off in #gnupg). Luckily, before the redirect of focus - i had some progress on the other tasks.
16:39 diana_coman shrysr_: do note that CH's article is relatively old so possibly not fully up to date.
16:40 diana_coman and the report is just that: a report of what actually got done/happened.
16:41 asciilifeform shrysr_: i wrote that v & vdiff -- so dun hesitate to ask , if yer stuck
16:42 shrysr_ yes. My plan is to post with the questions / points where i am stuck so you / Stan can help me... I would really like to crack it myself... but i'm mostly tired with the salt mine shit sucking my time energy this week.... it shd get okay once I have the base stuff up.
16:49 shrysr_ the steam lisp article has sort of stuck with me.... its not like the idea of the story was new... but i cd understand what was meant abt the 'mistake', and i think i see what asciilifeform meant about software. I think that article also had a reference to the QWERTY keyboard's popularity story, which has also stuck. I was reflecting that while I recognised it.... as an end user - i was more focused on
16:49 shrysr_ figuring out ways around it... and I did not reflect about Why the fuck the problem was there in the first place.
16:50 asciilifeform shrysr_: typically, if you want actual solution to $problem, yer stuck finding out 'why was there in the first place'
16:50 asciilifeform shrysr_: --- otherwise you will end up with spackle .
16:52 diana_coman the above being said, you need to know how to *choose* what problems to solve at a given time or otherwise you risk not doing anything at all or getting overwhelmed too.
16:59 shrysr_ asciilifeform: right! spackle.. i get that. hehe. and that actually sucks.
17:09 shrysr_ diana_coman: yes... I've been consciously trying to do so. I guess any progress on the tasks in the last 2 weeks is because i'm starting to make relatively better choices. Consciously forcing myself to re-read has also helped a lot... in combination with smaller steps and stopping myself to want to get it all in a single go all the time.
17:11 diana_coman shrysr_: realise that the key to getting to do "what you want/like" is simply to learn first to have...better "likes". That's the core of the issue.
17:11 shrysr_ you mean the liking to get it in a single shot ?
17:12 diana_coman basically it takes a whole lot of focused work *before* you can trust your "likes"
17:12 diana_coman no
17:12 diana_coman I mean the original "I want to do just what I like/enjoy" first of all
17:13 diana_coman but it's also true that as you know more/get better at various things, you will also get more faster so *some* may end up as "single shot"
17:13 diana_coman anyway: why the fixation on "in a single shot"?
17:26 diana_coman faster and deeper*
17:31 shrysr_ I thought about that in an effort to remove the root cause. i think it started in earnest with my last prep for the GRE when i was still applying for PhD's some years ago. I think i started believing that I HAD to be Able to do so if i was ever gonna do anything worthwhile... I guess there is a terrible feeling of inadequacy in me no matter what I do, and while I am not entirely misguided about my
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17:31 shrysr_ capability and the fact that I have done some good things --- i am plagued by a sense of failure in terms of not being able to make a 'real' impact and not getting some things I really wanted.. perhaps like that PhD (made worse by rejecting the one offer I did get)... struggling to get EACH job i've got so far... Maybe the genesis goes back further.. I rem a chat with my aerodynamics prof (who was
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17:31 shrysr_ awesome!) during my masters, where he suddenly asked me if I was the type who was never happy no matter what. we were discussing how I would know if i was making progress... and i said yes to his questions and then said but wtf thats like a scratch on the surface. I remember being quite surprised. Maybe I'm just afraid that if i dont - it means I am a dumbass and might as well kill myself.
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17:34 diana_coman shrysr_: there are quite a few things in there that seem conflated into a single one for no good reason.
17:34 diana_coman let's try a bit of detangling:
17:35 diana_coman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-25#1000509 - a feeling of inadequacy can be a very helpful thing actually; but the conclusion you got there doesn't follow at all
17:35 snsabot Logged on 2019-08-25 17:31:33 shrysr_: I thought about that in an effort to remove the root cause. i think it started in earnest with my last prep for the GRE when i was still applying for PhD's some years ago. I think i started believing that I HAD to be Able to do so if i was ever gonna do anything worthwhile... I guess there is a terrible feeling of inadequacy in me no matter what I do, and while I am not entirely misguided about my
17:36 diana_coman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-25#1000510 - this sounds like your drive really and there's nothing wrong with it in itself i.e. yes, young people WANT TO MATTER, of course, what else.
17:36 snsabot Logged on 2019-08-25 17:31:36 shrysr_: capability and the fact that I have done some good things --- i am plagued by a sense of failure in terms of not being able to make a 'real' impact and not getting some things I really wanted.. perhaps like that PhD (made worse by rejecting the one offer I did get)... struggling to get EACH job i've got so far... Maybe the genesis goes back further.. I rem a chat with my aerodynamics prof (who was
17:37 diana_coman there is the relatively modern trouble of "can matter over night" impression + not allowed to actually matter in everyday environment because it's broken
17:39 diana_coman combined those can quite make it terrible indeed but realise that 1. wanting to matter is normal and actually useful! 2. it's not going to happen overnight and moreover it's not about "getting anything and everything in one go"
17:40 diana_coman http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-25#1000511 - looking always at what you could have done better/ improvement does NOT mean /need to mean that you are "never happy no matter what"
17:40 snsabot Logged on 2019-08-25 17:31:38 shrysr_: awesome!) during my masters, where he suddenly asked me if I was the type who was never happy no matter what. we were discussing how I would know if i was making progress... and i said yes to his questions and then said but wtf thats like a scratch on the surface. I remember being quite surprised. Maybe I'm just afraid that if i dont - it means I am a dumbass and might as well kill myself.
17:42 diana_coman fwiw I had this sort of exchange as a student myself: me: wtf I was so stupid and did so poorly at X!!! prof: but most in the group did even worse!! me: even if plenty others were *even more stupid than me* it does not mean I wasn't an idiot!!
17:44 diana_coman to make it clear: evaluating yourself objectively and falling constantly short of an ideal is a good way to get where you want i.e. to improve and matter; at the same time, you need to be aware of improvements too and to be happy for what you learnt even while you look at where you still got it wrong.
17:45 diana_coman so keep your eyes on the ideal, sure, but don't deny your own improvements so far, either.
17:47 diana_coman in fewer words: be happy but don't become content/complacent.
17:48 diana_coman and ftr the blog and public, explicit record is precisely what helps you with the above since you can track the improvements.
17:50 diana_coman finally, re "not getting some things I really wanted" - this can be a tough nut but the root cause there is that you... wanted the wrong things basically.
17:51 diana_coman shrysr_: fwiw I don't think you had much struggle to get in here, had you?
17:52 diana_coman "wrong" above means simply not fitting you/your *needs* at that moment.
17:52 diana_coman actual needs, quite often different from "wants"
17:52 shrysr_ get in 'here' as in ?
17:53 diana_coman as in my accepting to mentor you.
17:55 shrysr_ no, I guess not. that it happened still feels surreal at times with some doubt if i am good enough to be worthy of it.
17:57 asciilifeform http://logs.nosuchlabs.com/log/ossasepia/2019-08-25#1000510 << fwiw asciilifeform wasn't 100% cured of envying the academic types until worked, at length, with them (as a civilian) and saw close-up what their daily grind in fact consisted of (i.e. quite unlike the naive picture of 'blue sky research' where 'do what you want' )
17:57 snsabot Logged on 2019-08-25 17:31:36 shrysr_: capability and the fact that I have done some good things --- i am plagued by a sense of failure in terms of not being able to make a 'real' impact and not getting some things I really wanted.. perhaps like that PhD (made worse by rejecting the one offer I did get)... struggling to get EACH job i've got so far... Maybe the genesis goes back further.. I rem a chat with my aerodynamics prof (who was
17:59 diana_coman shrysr_: focus on doing the best work you are able to and don't worry about that sort of evaluation - that's my call and therefore not your worry anymore.
17:59 diana_coman asciilifeform: nowadays academia is anyway just another bureaucracy really so not much "academia" left in it.
18:00 asciilifeform diana_coman: i'm aware, worked in several of the 'epicentres' of said bureaucracy
18:01 asciilifeform even 1 time found myself sitting in the 9th circle of hell, usg's 'darpa'
18:01 diana_coman at least 10+ years ago when I was in it, there was *still* way more scope for "do what you want" than in most industry jobs but the higher one went up the hierarchy the less of it essentially and anyway meanwhile from what I saw it only got worse.
18:02 diana_coman heh, I never was that famous :D ; and moreover I refused to even answer google's invite for interview (most probably sent to all phd students that had published at that conference or something).
18:02 asciilifeform diana_coman: i luckily avoided 'famous'
18:02 asciilifeform met, however, scores of 'emeritus', 'tenure' types, who could ~on paper~ 'do what want' but in practice could only sit and doze off on committees, cuz by the time one reaches said rank, the productive years are ~gone
18:04 asciilifeform sorta like in army, errybody wants to be a general ~like zhukov~ , who was general at 30, and not e.g. like voroshilov, who dozed off in politburo for last 20yrs of life
18:04 diana_coman hm, that is a different failure mode; fwiw I remember having C.A. Hoare as teacher at a summer school and he was already not exactly young but still more active and alive than a lot of way younger other academics.
18:04 asciilifeform modern-day bureaucracies dun like zhukovs, and they've mostly existed the stage consequently
18:05 asciilifeform diana_coman: interesting.
18:05 * asciilifeform blows dust off ancient vol. of hoare's 'functional prog.'
18:06 asciilifeform diana_coman: i didn't have a live hoare. had however a summer under one r. sagdeev, ex chair of su space works. he married some ameri-princess 1/3 his age and ended up in usa. but by that time was just about ready for nursing home, so i have 0 to brag about re that episode.
18:07 diana_coman aha; although he was actually super-approachable and genuinely interested in connecting, I was in too much awe to do much other than *listen*.
18:08 diana_coman well, I can't say there something I have to brag re above - if anything, a missed chance on my part.
18:08 asciilifeform generally by the time somebody is 'great academic'(tm) , is only fit for telling tales to grand-children
18:09 asciilifeform just about errybody i ever met who had episode with 'greats'(tm)(r), all fit this pattern
18:09 asciilifeform bureaucracy doesn't promote anyone to 'greats' until he's entirely 'harmless'
18:10 asciilifeform google, microshit, et al have entire academi-nursinghomes fulla these types.
18:10 asciilifeform they collectively sum to ~0.
18:11 diana_coman asciilifeform: hm, maybe because he was - even admitedly - the "purely theoretic" type? in his own words that I can still hear as such, for their contrast to the obvious knowledge of his domain otherwise : "I am disgracefully ignorant of the real life"
18:12 asciilifeform not even because 'theorists' but because decades of 'administrator' .
18:12 asciilifeform it's ~exact equiv. of 'promoted to management' in soft. industry
18:13 diana_coman ah, I got the impression he eschewed that, at least in part with precisely the above "excuse" .
18:14 asciilifeform motion in the reverse direction is rare, but not unheard of. at the uni here, we had a fella who spent a decade as dean, and then demanded -- successfully -- to be made an ordinary practicing prof again.
18:15 diana_coman ah, hm; based on my limited experience I thought it was everywhere that deans changed every 4 years or whatever other intervals; guess not, huh.
18:15 asciilifeform nao teaches, iirc, thermodynamics, 1ce/week
18:16 diana_coman 1001 models; iirc in France they even had 2 paths - one that included teaching and one that did not; I can't quite recall what they were called/ how did it work exactly but there was at least the option; then again, research grants and then "management" tend to eat a lot of "research" time anyway nowadays.
18:16 asciilifeform in the cases asciilifeform personally witnessed -- it eats ~100%
18:18 * asciilifeform worked -- as civilian, was drummed outta academia-proper for poor marks, from not giving enuff of a shit -- for succession of elderly academician types. all had quite unenviable life, consisting largely of cock-pulling-in-a-circle aka 'peer review' and grantsmanship, aka begging
18:19 diana_coman well, they enjoyed tenure I suppose.
18:19 asciilifeform 'enjoyed' like voroshilov enjoyed politburo.
18:20 diana_coman dunno, there is no such thing as one-sided interaction; if they stay there, it quite follows they find it enjoyable enough, what can I say.
18:21 asciilifeform 'stay' comes in 2 variant, 1 where 'enjoy enuff', other -- where legs w/ which to walk away -- atrophied .
18:22 diana_coman really now; and mouths to shout with also atrophied and arms to hit with also atrophied and on and on but somehow there is still something there to "not like it but suffer greatly"
18:22 diana_coman this sounds very much like "rezistenta prin cultura" to me#
18:24 asciilifeform diana_coman: not specifically. just that when d00d is 80 y.o. and the spark of life long ago departed, he will tend to stay wherever he is.
18:24 asciilifeform 'doesn't like' isn't even an applicable formulation. instead, vegetative existence, like oak.
18:25 diana_coman well, retired, yes; but if "spark of life long ago departed" then there isn't all that much to talk about in the first place, what can one do.
18:25 asciilifeform oak, will move, if someone gives enuff of a shit to dig it up and plant in new park. s. for instance was moved, in just such a way.
18:25 asciilifeform ( by clinton et al, for no particularly useful purpose afaik )
18:26 diana_coman sure, if passive then no agency and no "likes", no argument there.
18:26 asciilifeform afaik it was part of a largely aimless orgy of 'let's remove anyffin of any prestige whatsoever from old corpse of sovok, even the oaks'
18:28 diana_coman could at least retire though, in fairness, under pretty much any terms, from "you know best, it's your turn, let me be" to "don't want to have anything to do with you" and everything in between; not like 80 y.o. *has to* be part of shit.
18:28 asciilifeform not all emigre academics ended in bureaucracy. some instead -- to drive taxi. or teach freshman chemistry to halfwit footballists. met also these.
18:29 diana_coman but anyway, if living dead already, there's nobody there to talk about anymore essentially.
18:29 asciilifeform diana_coman: in usa 'retire' typically is not any longer a thing. 'colt '45 retirement corporation.'
18:29 diana_coman were the taxi drivers saner?
18:30 asciilifeform not detectably.
18:31 asciilifeform folx who were finely honed for world which then proceeded to disappear, will, i suspect, ~always register as at least mildly lunatic
18:32 asciilifeform see also e.g.
18:32 snsabot Logged on 2018-09-08 11:34:13 asciilifeform: sometimes ~entirely identical -- i recall reading of one physics d00d who was convinced that he will 'get rich' in nyc, selling... poetry
18:32 diana_coman I have to admit I have trouble picturing this "can't retire anymore", possibly because of my thoroughly european background that included plenty of old people on no pension to speak of (100 euros/month in the best case) and still perfectly retired; some giving piano lessons to live if needed, others eating the bit they could plant on some poor soil, but anyways)
18:33 asciilifeform diana_coman: the correct model is 1990s sovok. yes d00d gets 'pension', but after coupla yrs of inflation, it adds up to maybe 'eat cat food'
18:33 diana_coman sure, see above
18:34 diana_coman as I said: I know plenty of "no actual pension" but still happier to retire than to stay in there where they even perceived they simply don't ...belong.
18:34 asciilifeform as for 'piano lesson', i know several folx who actually skipped straight to that stage in their 30s (didn't make it to actual academia, despite diplomas) and nao tutor flunking freshmen 7 days / wk for coupla bux / hr
18:35 diana_coman well, at least not oaks, I'd count them for having a better deal despite what it might seem otherwise.
18:36 diana_coman I suppose a different generation in the end, the difference stems more likely from there, simply.
18:37 asciilifeform the operative bit is that none of asciilifeform's acquaintances see their pos as having 'deal', but as a pit into which they happened to fall in, and whatever attempts to climb out -- failed. diana_coman's pov where 'people have choice', i do not think is wrong as such, but to asciilifeform extremely 'martian', i do not anywhere in civilian life encounter people who perceive this 'choice'. they work in whatever work they were able
18:37 asciilifeform to find.
18:40 diana_coman that strikes me as a very interesting reversal of the usual image of americans-as-most-enterprising-individuals; then again, my actual knowledge of USA has always been extremely limited (and by now it's probably also very outdated).
18:40 asciilifeform i know even people who 'took choice' -- after maths diploma -- of becoming hobo. nao their 'choice' consists of which alley to sleep inside.
18:40 shrysr_ lolz!!!
18:40 asciilifeform diana_coman: 'don't spin the globe, you will not find' mark twain's usa on it.
18:42 * asciilifeform never lived in twain's usa , only this 1.
18:42 diana_coman asciilifeform: I didn't count my reading of mark twain's as knowledge of the USA, lolz! I did see Boston and I did interact with quite a few americans some years ago - that part was what I counted as my "extremely limited" knowledge.
18:43 asciilifeform diana_coman: there is added vexation (esp. among emigres & potential emigres) because in initial stages of progression 'from prof to hobo' there is typically a phase of stockholm syndrome, where the 'patient' is convinced (and will loudly proclaim) that he is 'success'
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18:43 diana_coman fwiw by "interacted" I mean both over some years in Ro and otherwise abroad in various contexts; I suppose I count inevitably also the second-hand experience of my parents to some extent.
18:45 asciilifeform diana_coman: ftr ( at least where asciilifeform has personally done time ) there are ~0 'americans' (in the born-in-usa sense) in academia -- at least sci/eng. ~100% emigres / children of same
18:45 asciilifeform i've met ~0 , with the prominent exception of the maffs hobos
18:46 asciilifeform solid wall of cn/in/kr/ex-sovok.
18:48 diana_coman hm, as I said: quite likely totally outdated; fwiw my experience did not involve almost any cn/in/kr/ex-sovok (or at least not obviously so, I never actually checked specifically); anyways, I can easily see it as current situation.
18:48 asciilifeform for all i know -- they're all in boston. did not do any time in boston.
18:48 diana_coman lolz!
18:49 diana_coman can be; the 2nd hand experience was Texas though (petroleum industry).
18:49 asciilifeform trinque might know moar about what happens there.
18:50 diana_coman I suspect it's not happening anymore; that part is the oldest indeed and it was some 20 years ago already.
18:51 diana_coman shrysr_: how's then in New Jersey since I gather you actually know that part of the USA?
18:53 asciilifeform diana_coman: to add a few brush strokes to the picture of usa -- and perhaps already you knew -- 1) most folx get ~0 'vacation'. they nominally get '2 wks' but is reserved in practice for illness ; 2) are paid just enuff to stay alive (and locate themselves within vicinity of the mines) , 2-3 missed weeks of pay means destitution .
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18:54 asciilifeform there is a reason you won't see many americans (of working age) 'hiking in the carpathians' etc
18:54 shrysr_ the time i spent in NJ was fleeting... 2-3 weeks at the most. spent a month in oklahoma ....2 years of remote dealing with americans in last salt mine. general impression of americans is that there is a very small % of the ppl who have brains and the rest are ridiculously dumb, and make up for inadequacy by being rude.
18:57 diana_coman asciilifeform: fwiw I have some former uni colleagues who work (predictably i.e. specifically aimed for and did everything and anything needed for it) at microsoft and have plenty of vacation and money; I'm ready to admit they are probably exceptions overall/few out of the total population ofc.
18:57 asciilifeform ( and , interestingly, 1+2 apply equally to janitor and to engineer who nominally paid 5x moar )
18:57 shrysr_ don't see canada to be terribly different in 2 years... but they are certainly not rude ppl. very polite.
18:58 asciilifeform diana_coman: i never did time at microshit, admittedly. the largest co. ever was in (excluding usg) was 'reuters', where 'princely'... 3 wks.
18:58 diana_coman shrysr_: heh, politeness indeed to the point of apologizing when it's not their fault, that much I know, yes.
19:00 diana_coman that being said, those microsoft-guys tend to complain re how kids are taught ("he's not stupid so he noticed how he can fool the test", "now I have to add X to teaching him at home too") but at the same time won't move because "there is nothing else that is just as intellectually interesting and paying such ridiculous amounts of money"
19:00 asciilifeform diana_coman: also interestingly, the 'ridiculous moneys' evaporate pretty fast if you, say, want own flat near that microshit
19:01 asciilifeform ( in the epicentre of the retardation, palo alto , a cockroach-infested 1 room flat goes for 5-6k u.s. )
19:01 diana_coman asciilifeform: I admit I never had the stomach to engage them *that* much; fwiw I couldn't stand them during uni precisely for the very same microsoft-is-great-no-matter-what brown nosing basicly so what can I say.
19:02 asciilifeform to work at microshit is, largely, its own punishment
19:03 diana_coman so quite possibly that's true; and yes iirc at least one was/is in palo alto; I have no idea where/in what lives with wife (microsoft too) + kids.
19:04 asciilifeform keep in mind that it is difficult to get truthful answers out of such folx, outside of a 'hanging upside-down and plugged into mains socket' setting
19:04 diana_coman honestly, I'm not *that* interested to even ask; plenty of more useful things to do.
19:05 asciilifeform the folx who belong being interested ( on acct of being about to jump into the pit ) generally aint, until too late, typically.
19:07 diana_coman shrysr_: I hope you are not going to miss your deadline because of the convo here :D
19:08 asciilifeform re 'folx in usa w/ plenty of money', admittedly i dun hang out with w. buffett . but also met people who ~think~ 'plenty of money' , and as a rule the 'plenty' can evaporate overnight ( break a leg; go a coupla months w/out work ; tax collector decides you didn't pay enuff ; 9000 other 'surprise' and 'poof' . )
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19:10 diana_coman that is probably the case i.e. not poof-proof
19:10 diana_coman and now we have a new money-word: is your money poof-proof?
19:10 asciilifeform aha, not even remotely 'proof', not even 'resistant' in the style of asciilifeform's dollar-store wristwatch in '92 being 'water resistant'
19:14 * asciilifeform bbl : meat chores .
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