Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2014-05-10 | 2014-06-01 → ↓
20:01 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19150 @ 0.0008848 = 16.9439 BTC [+]
20:10 kakobrekla and the smart card is inspectable?
20:11 mike_c ping pankkake
20:11 benkay kinda what i'm impling, kakobrekla
20:11 pankkake mike_c: all is good now
20:15 mike_c well, wanted to let you know i updated it a bit. if you look for an ad for a bet that I haven't picked up yet it goes and gets it in real time
20:15 pankkake oh, great
~ 18 minutes ~
20:34 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 3 @ 0.219 = 0.657 BTC [-]
20:37 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.23816262 BTC [+]
20:40 assbot [HAVELOCK] [SCRYPT] 133 @ 0.02701232 = 3.5926 BTC [-] {4}
20:42 penguirker New blog post: http://www.bcoinnews.com/butterflylabs-updates-monarch-revises-imperial-pcb/
20:42 penguirker New blog post: http://www.bcoinnews.com/bitcoin-mining-update-0530/
20:42 penguirker New blog post: http://www.bcoinnews.com/dish-network-accepting-bitcoin/
20:42 penguirker New blog post: http://www.bcoinnews.com/grid-data-btcchina-btce-bitstamp/
20:54 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 16150 @ 0.00088422 = 14.2802 BTC [-]
21:06 decimation asciilifeform: re:isolation transformers http://www.iso-puck.com/contents/en-us/d20_Price_List.html
21:06 assbot Price Lists
21:06 decimation Not cheap, I cannot vouch for the quality
21:06 decimation found them googling around. There are also transformers sold for the yacht market, but I'm sure they are more expensive
21:07 decimation I wanted to buy a 1:2 transformer to step-up my 120 volt generator to 240 volt for heavy appliances
21:08 decimation I found a few but it was clearly not a mainstream product. What would be nice is to combine an isolation transformer with two secondary windings so you can choose your output voltage
21:09 decimation it seems to me that the 120 volt standard in the US is extremely wasteful of valuable copper. The US should switch to the global 220/240 v standard.
21:10 decimation This bridgeport magnetics group also sells isolation transformers designed for use in streetlights: http://www.bridgeportmagnetics.com/streetlight.html - available on a street near you :)
21:10 assbot Streetlight Isolation Transformers
21:11 decimation re: marine isoloation transformers http://www.sail-world.com/index.cfm?Nid=84973&refre=y&ntid=0&rid=3
21:11 assbot Sail-World.com : Why You Should Add an Isolation Transformer to your Boat
21:12 decimation Although there were 'No Swimming' signs that warned of the danger of electrocution, it was common practice for patrons to swim at the marina. ... Samantha tried to climb on a raft with Margaret when she suddenly started jerking in the water. ... Another boater dove in to save Samantha. He was shocked too and barely escaped with his life. Sadly, Samantha died.
21:13 decimation pro tip: when someone is jerking randomly in the water below a "no swimming - danger of electrocution" sign, don't jump in to rescue
21:25 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM1] 69 @ 0.21216524 = 14.6394 BTC [-] {5}
~ 15 minutes ~
21:41 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 20350 @ 0.00088344 = 17.978 BTC [-] {2}
~ 17 minutes ~
21:58 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.08838 = 0.1768 BTC [-]
22:08 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7500 @ 0.00088061 = 6.6046 BTC [-]
22:19 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27350 @ 0.00088043 = 24.0798 BTC [-] {2}
22:27 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.00200302 = 0.2003 BTC [-] {4}
22:29 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 10418 @ 0.00088097 = 9.1779 BTC [+]
22:33 mircea_popescu ;;ticker
22:33 gribble Bitstamp BTCUSD ticker | Best bid: 635.12, Best ask: 636.8, Bid-ask spread: 1.68000, Last trade: 636.8, 24 hour volume: 9707.94045991, 24 hour low: 611.0, 24 hour high: 636.95, 24 hour vwap: 623.512321046
22:34 mircea_popescu !jd mpif
22:34 assbot Current MPIF account balance on Just-Dice: 166.97404975 BTC; +0.01831254 BTC (+0.0110%) since last check 3h 49m 52s ago.
22:36 mircea_popescu Trust relationship from user mircea_popescu to user kakobrekla: Level 1: 5, Level 2: 46 via 27 connections.<< epic
22:39 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19050 @ 0.00088148 = 16.7922 BTC [+] {2}
22:39 asciilifeform re: dumbcards:
22:39 asciilifeform http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=15-03-2014#560871
22:39 assbot #bitcoin-assets log
22:39 asciilifeform (love the log, spares my keyboard years of life)
22:40 mircea_popescu definitely.
22:41 mircea_popescu jurov: someday people with perfect hearing will end up wearing hearing aids with noise suppression << i'll wear assault rifles with noise supression before i do tha.t
22:41 asciilifeform don't knock antiphase headphone till you've tried it. great in airplanes, machine rooms.
22:43 joecool asciilifeform: meh, isolation > antiphase
22:44 asciilifeform there's a reason everybody doesn't simply wear rifle range headphones on the plane
22:44 asciilifeform you get sweaty
22:45 joecool ah i use IEM's, they fit in pocket
22:45 asciilifeform i still have mine from uni
22:46 asciilifeform scratch that - iem appears to be actual headphone. thought you meant plugs, as used by construction crews
22:47 joecool no, i mean balanced armatures
22:47 asciilifeform decimation: those transformers are 'golden toilet' priced - no surprise, given the 'medical' label
22:48 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43698 @ 0.00088063 = 38.4818 BTC [-] {2}
22:49 joecool asciilifeform: i wasn't talking about hw bitcoin wallet implementations, i was talking about openpgp smartcard implementations
22:49 asciilifeform joecool: same problems
22:49 asciilifeform joecool: 1) pc knows that dedicated crypto hardware is connected. compromised pc can then mitm the user.
22:49 asciilifeform joecool: 2) vlsi - thus non-inspectable - rng and cryptographic functionality.
22:50 decimation re: antiphase headphones - they give me a weird headache if I use them too long. Also I find that they have rolloff at the lower frequencies
22:50 asciilifeform decimation: same. this is because they inevitably emit an audible hiss of their own.
22:50 decimation I found really great NASCAR earphones that have 30 dB attenuation down to low frequencies - I look like a tool on the airplane
22:51 joecool rolloff at lower freq is usually due to running inefficient low impedance headphones off a bad source
22:51 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 73 @ 0.00199663 = 0.1458 BTC [-]
22:51 joecool can be solved with an amp, i didn't believe sensitive IEM's would be affected till i had a pair with a picky crossover
22:51 joecool switched to an amp and they sounded like a very different pair
22:51 decimation To be fair I haven't purchased the fancy "pilot quality" headphones made by bose etc.
22:52 asciilifeform bose is a terrific scam (what spends so much on glossy magazine ads, and isn't ?)
22:52 joecool i'm a big fan of westone's products, i switched to them from shure awhile back
22:52 decimation old school pilots use passive david clark headphones
22:53 decimation I also wonder if the antiphase headphones are modulating my eardrums at frequencies beyond my perception
22:53 joecool asciilifeform: i don't generate keys on card for the rng issue, need to upload from laptop, but yeah sure no way to enter pin outside the laptop
22:53 joecool so collecting keystrokes could give pin
22:54 joecool the only assurance you have is a signature counter in the smartcard
22:54 asciilifeform joecool: not only this, but laptop 'knows' that a crypto gizmo is connected.
22:54 asciilifeform fails the 'would you plug this in at dr. evil's house?' test.
22:54 joecool asciilifeform: pretty sure in the case of the smartcard it needs to initialize the card to know that it is, all it sees is a reader otherwise
22:55 assbot [HAVELOCK] [ALC] 18 @ 0.11593333 = 2.0868 BTC [-] {2}
22:56 assbot [HAVELOCK] [ALC] 12 @ 0.11 = 1.32 BTC [-]
22:56 asciilifeform if you plug dumbcard into a pwned box, it will sign whatever the enemy wants to sign.
22:57 joecool asciilifeform: not without a pin
22:57 asciilifeform the very next time victim enters pin.
22:57 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 2 @ 0.077101 = 0.1542 BTC [+] {2}
22:58 asciilifeform orthogonal to this is the other problem, that you (owner) have no way of verifying what it is the gizmo is capable of
22:58 asciilifeform (e.g. the hardcoded master key that inevitably turns up in audits of various crapware)
22:59 decimation ascii have you seen this paper http://www.ee.usyd.edu.au/people/philip.leong/UserFiles/File/papers/wallace_tvlsi05.pdf
22:59 asciilifeform joecool: i don't generate keys on card << still has rng, for signature nonces.
22:59 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 3 @ 0.07500202 = 0.225 BTC [-] {2}
22:59 decimation You can just put the user 4-digit pin into a key derivation algorithm :)
23:00 mircea_popescu ouch.
23:00 asciilifeform am i the only one here who remembers how rsa sig algo works !?
23:00 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.075001 = 0.3 BTC [-]
23:00 joecool asciilifeform: probably, I honestly never looked at that, will go read now
23:02 asciilifeform decimation: LFSRs suck. and virtually every academic treatise on rng design assumes a very impoverished physical entropy source.
23:02 asciilifeform why? ask the builders, not me
23:02 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 307 @ 0.07217058 = 22.1564 BTC [-] {18}
23:02 decimation well, to be fair I think the application is to generate noise for comms. simulation purposes, not crypto
23:03 asciilifeform even for simulation purposes (actually the original source of my interest in rng design, years ago) lfsr is crap. you get creeping periodicities.
23:03 mircea_popescu benkay, "it's all hazy probability fields at this point" << so start before you fly over, get a nice scorpio, maybe it turns out a girl with big green eyes etc.
23:03 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 10 @ 0.07013204 = 0.7013 BTC [-] {4}
23:03 decimation it's a good point. Part of the problem is that actual calibrated analog noise sources are expensive
23:03 asciilifeform your simulated annealing turd won't converge, you'll sit & curse the gods
23:04 decimation but but ascii they said it's good to 8 sigma!
23:04 decimation K-S tests etc
23:04 asciilifeform decimation: lol.
23:04 assbot [HAVELOCK] [PETA] 9 @ 0.07000011 = 0.63 BTC [-] {2}
23:05 mircea_popescu chairforce1: im really good at losing money << such skillz.
23:05 decimation Last I called, NIST wanted $5-10k for "labor costs" to measure the phase noise of a microwave oscillator
23:05 decimation was going to be 4 hours work max
23:05 mircea_popescu oscialltors are iffy tho
23:06 asciilifeform decimation: rng design that involves the purchase of an active volcano is probably expensive too.
23:06 asciilifeform 'doctor it hurts when i do that. -- don't do that.'
↖
23:06 decimation I feel better about a device when it has a calibration seal
23:06 asciilifeform if it's a crypto gizmo and has seal - which i didn't put there - i've no interest in it.
23:07 mircea_popescu ^
23:07 mircea_popescu seals are scam in crypto
23:07 joecool mircea_popescu: stickers always make things work better
23:07 decimation this is true, and even the pros know it
23:07 mircea_popescu it's almost like wanting to marry a virgin specifically.
23:07 asciilifeform seals don't even keep poor buggers from fucking with electric meters.
23:07 mircea_popescu joecool, finally someone explained bumper stickers to me.
23:08 mircea_popescu that's why all the old chryslers and whatnot have them
23:08 joecool covers the rust
23:08 decimation if your crypto wasn't designed to defeat someone who knows everything about how it works, then you are not in the crypto business
23:08 mircea_popescu ;;google ne me touche pas
23:08 gribble Ne me touche pas - French - English Translation and Examples: <http://mymemory.translated.net/t/French/English/ne%20me%20touche%20pas>; arrete,arrete,ne me touche pas. - YouTube: <https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lcnPxgoZLNw>; PATRICIA CARLI 1963 Arrête, arrête, ne me touche pas... - YouTube: <http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3KI236fMxoY>
23:09 asciilifeform aside from this, even a hypothetically impregnable seal is an attack against the owner (he cannot examine the package either)
23:09 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 10032 @ 0.00008209 = 0.8235 BTC [-] {6}
23:09 mircea_popescu chairforce1:
23:09 mircea_popescu so what is to gain from this jerking in this circle as opposed to others?
23:10 decimation ascii does any commercial device you know about meet this criteria?
23:10 mircea_popescu ask not what you gain from us or how did it go
23:10 decimation USG doesn't share either: http://www.samm.dsca.mil/loanote/communication-security-comsec-transmission-security-transec-devices-sold-fms-for-integration
23:10 assbot [HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 4053 @ 0.00007939 = 0.3218 BTC [-] {9}
23:10 asciilifeform decimation: if it did, i'da bought it, and wouldn't be trying to build
23:10 decimation heh good point
23:11 assbot [HAVELOCK] [HIF] 5000 @ 0.0001014 = 0.507 BTC [-] {35}
23:12 asciilifeform decimation: pretty much everyone fucks the goat right off the starting line - by using a vlsi rng
23:12 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 20 @ 0.026305 = 0.5261 BTC [-]
23:12 decimation when you think about it, that's pretty silly, considering how easy it would be to use an analog noise source
23:13 asciilifeform decimation: now the cost of auditing device becomes $10mil.
23:13 asciilifeform (electron microscope, ion beam machine, etc.)
23:13 assbot [HAVELOCK] [RENT] 370 @ 0.00317717 = 1.1756 BTC [-] {11}
23:13 decimation they could use a revese-biased external diode with an A/D or comperator or whatever
23:13 asciilifeform $100k if you know a fellow who owns the above and trust him.
23:14 asciilifeform decimation: there is no arcane secret in building a decent analogue rng.
23:14 asciilifeform undergrad-level project.
23:14 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5400 @ 0.0008816 = 4.7606 BTC [+]
23:14 assbot [HAVELOCK] [SF1] 1000 @ 0.00025176 = 0.2518 BTC [-] {16}
23:14 assbot [HAVELOCK] [SCRYPT] 4 @ 0.02658 = 0.1063 BTC [-]
23:14 decimation the next problem: they have an auditable RNG, but how do you know they are actually using it?
23:16 asciilifeform decimation: i'll helpfully point out where this line of thought ends: if you can't re-create the device in its entirety from the published docs, it isn't worth using.
23:16 asciilifeform (not that anything which passes this test is automatically worth using)
23:16 asciilifeform just as not all things which aren't poisonous are good to eat for dinner
23:17 decimation you should implement RSA in 74xx series logic
23:17 TheNewDeal is this about the NSA dealio?
23:17 decimation eh?
23:17 asciilifeform TheNewDeal: it's about the basic question of what it means to trust a machine
23:17 TheNewDeal I thought MPEX's NSA was developing some RNG
23:18 TheNewDeal or perhaps that was just one component?
23:18 asciilifeform TheNewDeal: i built the rng. yes, it is only one of the components.
23:18 decimation ah yes it's related to that
23:18 TheNewDeal I guess "NSA dealio" was a little... nonspecific
23:18 asciilifeform TheNewDeal: http://www.loper-os.org/?p=1475 << mp, other friends, and an rng
23:18 assbot Loper OS » Trilema 2014
23:18 joecool i have no idea what my keyboard controller is capable of anymore, so yeah points totally valid
23:19 asciilifeform (small blue rectangle in bottom right hand size of first photo)
23:19 asciilifeform *side
23:20 TheNewDeal mp actually helped design that? didn't know he had that know-how
23:20 TheNewDeal Thought I heard him say something about hardware not being his fortay
23:20 asciilifeform mp provided a reason why to do it. and useful tips on related subjects.
23:20 decimation your last comment about discrete logic lead me to research the topic: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/D-17B
23:20 assbot D-17B - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
23:21 asciilifeform my uni's first computer was a d-17b
23:21 asciilifeform afaik they still have it in a closet somewhere.
23:21 decimation the idea of swapping out a card in your CPU is amusing to me
23:21 asciilifeform decimation: until the late '70s, all cpu designs were of this kind
23:22 asciilifeform (not discrete switches, at the end, naturally - rather, 'bit-slice' logic)
23:22 TheNewDeal oh my gosh, just talked to t his electrician the other day that told me he used to do maintenance on card sorters, like IBM's 074. Just thought I'd toss that in on the topic of old hardware
23:22 asciilifeform card sorter - so you don't have to kill the fellow who dropped a deck.
23:23 asciilifeform (with the 'card knife,' which came with the reader.)
23:23 TheNewDeal hahaha
23:23 TheNewDeal I though the card sorter was the actual machine that computed, no>
23:23 asciilifeform nope. just sorted.
23:24 TheNewDeal oh my gosh
23:24 decimation Also I found this amusing link: http://blog.notdot.net/2012/10/Build-your-own-FPGA
23:24 assbot Build your own FPGA - Nick's Blog
23:24 TheNewDeal now I understand why that crazy comp science teacher told me I had it easy
23:25 asciilifeform decimation: the most basic 'jungle fpga' is just your ordinary ROM.
23:25 asciilifeform you can do logic (inefficiently) with a rom.
23:25 asciilifeform (if you can't see how, think for a minute)
23:25 decimation yeah I guess you can just craw through its contents turing-machine style
23:25 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 19550 @ 0.00088301 = 17.2628 BTC [+] {2}
23:26 TheNewDeal I'm going to go enjoy a smoke and ponder that thought
23:28 mircea_popescu <TheNewDeal> mp actually helped design that? didn't know he had that know-how << i'm really good at piggybacking on people's work.
23:29 decimation Yeah I guess you can wire the address lines for the input to link to the outputs you want to simulate
23:29 decimation implementing a turing machine would just re-invent the cpu model
23:30 TheNewDeal haha
23:31 asciilifeform TheNewDeal: dark secret: mp studied maths, physics
23:33 mircea_popescu ;;later tell bitcoinpete "He fleeced -assette extraordinaire kakobrekla for 145 BTC" doesn't seem an accurate rendition. iirc usagi sold pirate insurance, which he paid up on.
23:33 gribble The operation succeeded.
23:35 mircea_popescu pankkake, the "if both your house and your bank burn down you don't care" theory is pure nonsense.
23:35 mircea_popescu coupla years ago a hurricane hit new york with a lot of watter.
23:35 mircea_popescu guess what ? buncha rich folks houses were underwater
23:36 mircea_popescu and so was a major vault hoilding trillions worth of paper.
23:36 mircea_popescu (which, btw, is STILL to this day not fully unwound)
23:41 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26800 @ 0.00088162 = 23.6274 BTC [-]
23:42 mircea_popescu !up bigdude
23:45 TheNewDeal oooh
23:45 TheNewDeal speaking of dark secrets...
23:46 TheNewDeal mircea_popescu I've been trying to find a list of premine / scamcoins that you provided in the past. It was in a wikipedia format. Can't find it in the logs
23:46 TheNewDeal I was inquiring about darkcoin when you brought it up
23:46 asciilifeform http://www.nps.gov/common/uploads/photogallery/mwr/park/mimi/420B3C81-155D-4519-3E9D3013478486BF/420B3C81-155D-4519-3E9D3013478486BF.jpg
23:46 asciilifeform (from http://www.nps.gov/media/photo/gallery.htm?id=A37956F8-155D-4519-3E9920D57BA0886A# - 'minuteman' lock)
23:46 assbot Photo Gallery (U.S. National Park Service)
23:47 asciilifeform and...
23:47 asciilifeform https://www.google.com/patents/US3035433?dq=3035433
23:47 assbot Patent US3035433 - Lock mechanism - Google Patents
23:47 asciilifeform because now we have the net.
23:47 asciilifeform and eyes.
23:48 asciilifeform apparently, this is a famous lock.
23:49 decimation there was some dumb tv show like pawn stars or something like that where some guy was trying to sell a "missile key" for $30k if I recall
23:49 asciilifeform also found in chicago elevators.
23:49 assbot [HAVELOCK] [AM100] 100 @ 0.00199999 = 0.2 BTC [-]
23:49 TheNewDeal like a fireman's lock?
23:49 asciilifeform correct
23:50 assbot [MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4421 @ 0.00088304 = 3.9039 BTC [+]
23:50 decimation Because you know the weak link in your undrground missile silo with 10 ton doors is ... the missile launch lock
23:50 asciilifeform the lock, as all locks, 'keeps honest man honest'
23:52 assbot [HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 12 @ 0.026305 = 0.3157 BTC [-]
23:52 asciilifeform missile lock is ceremonial item. in both american and russian procedural manuals, one turn-key is instructed to compel the other by force of arms if he refuses to carry out his half of the ritual.
23:52 TheNewDeal asciilifeform how did you know about chicago elevators? Is that were you reside? I'm working in Chicago for the next week...
23:53 asciilifeform TheNewDeal: nope. just read a little about the lock.
23:53 TheNewDeal shucks
23:53 asciilifeform TheNewDeal: re: elevator locks: a few years ago, a photo of a new york elevator key was posted on the net. people promptly rushed to their cnc lathes...
23:55 TheNewDeal hahaha
23:56 decimation http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Emergency_Rocket_Communications_System amusing SAC strange
23:56 assbot AN/DRC-8 Emergency Rocket Communications System - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
23:56 decimation yo dawg, we heard to launch icbms
23:58 decimation I mean "yo dawg, we heard you like to launch ICBMs - so we put an ICBM launch in your ICBM lauches"
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