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00:02	Vexual	its not unreasonably slow sir
00:02	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 43851 @ 0.00093235 = 40.8845 BTC [-]
00:03	Vexual	in two teths of the time it takes an a 380 to fly round the world you could be to cuba and back
00:03	Vexual	provided you set out from the modern spanish main
00:06	Vexual	or just roll around in the pacific and its all cool
00:07	Vexual	ive seen the rooster tail off one of those nuke subs and ill tell you they are well fast even on the surface
00:08	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26966 @ 0.00093421 = 25.1919 BTC [+] {3}
00:08	herbijudlestoids	so
00:09	herbijudlestoids	has anyone heard of reggie middletons ultra coin, not to be confused with ultracoin the altcoin?
00:09	herbijudlestoids	http://www.zerotrustdigitalmoney.com/
00:09	herbijudlestoids	something like zerocoin i guess
00:09	Duffer1	i haven't been able to read the altcoin forums since coingen came out
00:09	herbijudlestoids	looks like: http://boombustblog.com/images/stories/Bitcoin/Untitled.png (apparently)
00:14	KRS1	herbijudlestoids: I'd like to know more about that screenshot
00:16	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HIF] 992 @ 0.000405 = 0.4018 BTC [-] {4}
00:16	herbijudlestoids	KRS1: from what i understand its using zero trust contracts in a closed bitcoin system to do financial obligations (basically)
00:17	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KC2q6_GM9zs
00:18	herbijudlestoids	im watchin the youtube video about it now, seems like he has hired some indian guy to do the coding and the explanation video is just a skype screencast of him showing reggie what he has paid for
00:18	Vexual	codemonekys
00:20	herbijudlestoids	confusing because there is an alt called ultracoin that has nothing to do with it
00:20	Vexual	thats why theres altcoin
00:24	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29100 @ 0.00093431 = 27.1884 BTC [+]
00:27	mircea_popescu	herbijudlestoids have heard, yea. sort-of ripple/ot/etc
00:27	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29570 @ 0.00093431 = 27.6275 BTC [+]
00:29	herbijudlestoids	seems a bit vapey right now? i tried to reg for the forum but doesnt work etc
00:29	herbijudlestoids	opinion?
00:29	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7Ofl8IRf7o
00:29	herbijudlestoids	seems approx equv to the idea of p2pex, implemented with zero trust
00:31	mircea_popescu	it doesn't seem like anything, tbh.
00:31	mircea_popescu	lot of hype, no actual subtance that i so far noticed.
00:31	Vexual	lasbians
00:31	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12261 @ 0.00093235 = 11.4315 BTC [-]
00:32	mircea_popescu	"Here's the latest Max Keiser in which he and Stacey Herbert to a good job of explaining what I have in mind. " this sort of thing will instakill any project, for instance.
00:32	herbijudlestoids	truth
00:32	mircea_popescu	in general, a large number of fluffers are trying to scam various particular venues. there's all the dorks pretending like they have projects for the benefit of the clueless va market.
00:33	mircea_popescu	there's all the various scammers trying to peel the eager youth public
00:33	mircea_popescu	on it goes.
00:33	Vexual	are you gonna do mpex forever mp?
00:34	mircea_popescu	probably not.
00:34	Vexual	who could manage it
00:34	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2013/so-whats-the-plan-with-mpoempex/
00:34	Vexual	could someone?
00:35	mircea_popescu	why not ?
00:35	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2013/smpoe-takes-strategic-investor/
00:35	mircea_popescu	maybe this year i cut a deal with a large bank. or maybe i buy one. or maybe next year. or who knows
00:35	herbijudlestoids	sweet accounting gimix from italy today http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-02-01/italy-enacts-most-bizarre-bank-bailout-yet
00:35	mircea_popescu	i'm not even 40 yet. there's plenty of time.
00:36	mircea_popescu	haha yea i saw that. ppl were like... headshake and backing up
00:36	herbijudlestoids	you should buy the worlds oldest bank! monte dei paschi di siena
00:37	herbijudlestoids	http://www.bloomberg.com/quote/BMPS:IM
00:38	mircea_popescu	not particularly strong.
00:38	decimation	what's the point of owning a fiat bank?
00:38	Vexual	old monmey and contacts
00:38	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34461 @ 0.00093228 = 32.1273 BTC [-] {2}
00:39	mircea_popescu	that you can tell the government of X irrelevant country to either adapt its enforcement to what you do or else prepare for eating treebark
00:39	mircea_popescu	like hsbc sent the usg packing
00:39	herbijudlestoids	i dun think you can afford a strong bank, thats why i suggested one of the weaklings :P
00:39	decimation	all the banks are poor in bitcoin
00:40	mircea_popescu	i don't need a weakling.
00:40	mircea_popescu	and on the strength of having grown from 10mn to 1bn in ayear, i can literally afford anything.
00:40	mircea_popescu	in the current situation, the only reason i conceivably could not lbo a bank with 100trn in "assets"
00:40	mircea_popescu	is that the people supposed to finance lbos are either poor or stupid.
00:42	decimation	seems like bank ownership would come with all kinds of soveirgn meddling
00:42	mircea_popescu	;;later tell thickasthieves https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=443108.msg4887312#msg4887312 << seems they've decided it's called ALT not ATC.
00:42	gribble	The operation succeeded.
00:42	Vexual	you might have a son in the next few years mp
00:42	mircea_popescu	decimation obviously it'd be a complex matter.
00:43	mircea_popescu	anyway, the actual reason would be, of course, that the last thing any one government wants is me at the helm of a huge fiat bank.
00:43	decimation	I agree at some point it will happen. In fact, at some point banks will be begging for the bitcoin rich to tell them what to do
00:43	mircea_popescu	they'd rather not eat all that much treebark if at all possible.
00:43	Vexual	well if mpex is anything to go by, youd own a priavte bank
00:44	Vexual	and still be the goto guy for bitcoin shit
00:44	mircea_popescu	Vexual 500 dollars a year to bank there and no further fees.
00:44	mircea_popescu	tell me you wouldn't use it.
00:44	Vexual	i cant tell you that
00:44	mircea_popescu	unlike the children spending their lunchbreak on bitcointalk, irl people actually have to like... you know, pay the rent and shit
00:44	Vexual	i imagine youd still use mpex too
00:45	mircea_popescu	yes. you'd need gpg for internet banking.
00:45	decimation	I would pay if I could get 100% backed deposits in whatever currency I'm banking
00:45	mircea_popescu	decimation well is it a bank or is it money storage ?
00:45	decimation	money storage for me
00:46	mircea_popescu	you could have that, i dun see why not.
00:46	decimation	with a convienent loan-matchmaking system
00:46	mircea_popescu	course at least for psychological reasons it's prolly better to have the storage and the banking business separated.
00:47	herbijudlestoids	how about the bank that lets you choose what rate you are willing to loan your money out at
00:47	decimation	the hilarious thing is that the fiat gov't would think they have leverage over you
00:47	mircea_popescu	decimation folks love to think this, story of my life.
00:47	herbijudlestoids	if you choose, say, 0% it cant loan the money out, at 0.5% only low risk investments, etc
00:48	mircea_popescu	herbijudlestoids maybe. the problem here is this : the more choice you give people, the more fuckwited they are and the more scams you enable.
00:48	mircea_popescu	so in practice you want to either give all choice or no choice.
00:49	decimation	you can have a fractional subsidary for the idiots to bank with
00:49	mircea_popescu	sorta like you can either be male or female. have to pick one.
00:49	mircea_popescu	there's no gender-ambiguous connector.
00:49	decimation	"why don't my checking account pay interest?" etc
00:49	herbijudlestoids	realistically, there should be no bitcoin bank, doesnt seem necessary as long as there is a highly liquid market for bitcoin duration notes and bonds, like 10,30,90 day 2,5,7,y bonds
00:49	mircea_popescu	the note market is much more difficult than meets the eye.
00:50	Vexual	why isnt my coal mine making money? it is now
00:50	Vexual	coz powerplant and shit
00:51	mircea_popescu	look at that, paschi di siena is on hte pinksheets now.
00:51	mircea_popescu	maddof helped them so.
00:51	decimation	the bank would provide research and screening of businesses wanting loans, as well as negotiating terms for classes of investors
00:52	decimation	ie a real finiancial middleman in the proper sense
00:52	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dCE3Ge4bCLk
00:52	mircea_popescu	decimation you'll never be able to hire.
00:52	mircea_popescu	how do you think i'll be able to coerce herbi here to do all that legwork for your blind "classes"
00:52	mircea_popescu	when he could just as well set up shop for himself.
00:53	Vexual	yeah herbi got it, hes a surity
00:53	decimation	there will be people who just wanna have some passive income, and will be willing to pay the bank fees to make sure the deal is reasonable
00:54	mircea_popescu	you still won't be able to hire.
00:54	herbijudlestoids	decimation: why cant any business wanting loans list a bond and their financial deets and allow me to quantify them and bid in the free market on their rate?
00:54	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30500 @ 0.00093166 = 28.4156 BTC [-] {2}
00:54	mircea_popescu	herbijudlestoids why do you need a bank to interface your etrade account ?
00:55	herbijudlestoids	pls adjust your analogies for australia retards
00:55	decimation	MP, as in you won't be able to find anyone who is qualified to make these kinds of subjective creditworthiness judgements?
00:55	mircea_popescu	decimation not for any price youll afford to pay.
00:56	mircea_popescu	herbijudlestoids i just mean that if you want to dd on your own you can't possibly need a bank for any purpose.
00:56	Vexual	etrade is a stock broker here u know mp?
00:56	decimation	Well, you certainly wouldn't find anyone qualified working for banks today. He/she would have to be grown from scratch somehow.
00:56	mircea_popescu	decimation so then you try to "make it work" which means you push both ends and then a decade down the road your shitty officers bring about a crisis of unheard magnitude
00:57	mircea_popescu	what, you think financial top management particularly WANTED a crisis ?
00:57	mircea_popescu	Vexual yes.
00:57	Vexual	thought so
00:57	KRS1	herbijudlestoids>: he's finding the contracts in the blockchain?
00:57	KRS1	looks like theres also a rating to them
00:58	mircea_popescu	that's my point. if he wants a self-service thing he doesn't need the bank to anything.
00:58	decimation	I'm not sure the crisis would be of the same magnitude as what fiat banks have gotten into
00:58	herbijudlestoids	well what would i need the bank for, if i can for example loan 10 day money in a liquid market to some business directly, and then when i need some money sell the appropriate amout of 10 day loans back into the mkt?
00:58	KRS1	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9JhsUFuqbCM
00:58	decimation	but you certainly could lose alot of money on idiocy
01:00	decimation	what if you wanted to divide a loan amoung a few others to reduce the risk?
01:00	mircea_popescu	decimation you want sane business models at all times. this one you're contemplating proposes to make 10 dollar steaks out of nine meat. that leftover dollar isn't enough to hire anything but mcdonalds staff. which won't make what you want.
01:00	mircea_popescu	herbijudlestoids yes. if you want to do all the work, you don't need someone to do the work for a group of "you".
01:01	mircea_popescu	if you want to cut wood and feed stoves, "town heating services" aren't useful to you.
01:01	herbijudlestoids	mircea_popescu: marginal savers can do the legwork and rest of the market can take the interest rate as the signal
01:01	mircea_popescu	this is the path to disaster.
01:02	mircea_popescu	it's basically the equivalent of driving a car by touch.
01:02	herbijudlestoids	decimation: im assuming the loan granularity is extremely fine so you can loan your bitcoins equally amongst them or however you like...
01:02	mircea_popescu	fun fact : loan granularity only becomes fine in systems which well handle coarse.
01:02	mircea_popescu	if you need fineness as an input your system is thereby aborted.
01:03	decimation	That sounds like alot of work for investors and businesses alike
01:03	decimation	But I guess the work has to exist somewhere
01:03	mircea_popescu	this is kind of the general point here : you ignore workload at your peril. sooner or later it will punish you.
01:03	mircea_popescu	the later the worse.
01:03	herbijudlestoids	the businesses have to do nothing except list the bond and their verifiably true financials
01:04	mircea_popescu	sadly there is no such thing as a "verifiable true financial"
01:04	decimation	I guess I'm pushing it into the black boxed labeld "competent bank", and you are saying such a bank would have to charge enormous fees to employ the right people
01:04	herbijudlestoids	ye
01:04	herbijudlestoids	thereby compressing any profit margin
01:04	mircea_popescu	decimation something like that. you're basically saying "it should be done", like a govt.
01:04	mircea_popescu	well... that's fine but it doesn't actually work.
01:05	mircea_popescu	you know how they pass laws going "nothing in the foregoing should be construed as doing X" ?
01:05	mircea_popescu	that's wishful thinking in a bowstring. what the fuck.
01:05	decimation	That's in nearly all us laws now
01:05	mircea_popescu	indeed.
01:06	mircea_popescu	"nothing i do now should be construed as rape" *pow* *smack* *riiiip*
01:06	assbot	Last 1 lines bashed and pending review. (http://dpaste.com/1581430/plain/)
01:06	Duffer1	!bash 1
01:07	decimation	Well, at least my "competent bank" would be better than current gov't and banks because the liabilities would be explicit and clear
01:07	Duffer1	^.^
01:07	mircea_popescu	they won't stauy explicit and clear
01:07	mircea_popescu	everyone involved has a definite interest to muddy them
01:07	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22092 @ 0.00093433 = 20.6412 BTC [+] {2}
01:07	mircea_popescu	because your model fundamentally doesn't work, and so they're all stuck
01:07	mircea_popescu	Duffer1 omg context
01:08	Duffer1	ya i just realized >.<
01:08	Duffer1	i should have added a few more lines
01:08	mircea_popescu	be ashamed. you've even broken the rules nao.
01:08	Duffer1	sorry hehe
01:09	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RJ0hOKCSuns
01:10	decimation	Do you have an alternative in mind? The only thing that occurs to me is rugged investors and businesses creating gpg contracts on their own terms.
01:11	mircea_popescu	i don't have a fully polished, drop-in alternative in any sense.
01:11	mircea_popescu	what's worse, i doubt there can actually be an alternative to toughening the agents the fuck up.
01:11	mircea_popescu	i've been measuring it across the board, you've perhaps seen the tail ends of ti
01:11	mircea_popescu	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=339544.0;all etc
01:12	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25885 @ 0.00093203 = 24.1256 BTC [-] {2}
01:12	KRS1	Vexual: groovyy
01:12	KRS1	Straya cunt
01:13	Vexual	sup florida
01:13	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wLvCkxg0BOI
01:14	decimation	it's the quis custodiet ipsos custodes problem
01:15	mircea_popescu	in general, the problem is vast. the day your average us citizen has decided that politics is a problem that other people should solve for him, so he can focus on w/e his job is
01:15	mircea_popescu	that day politics got fucked irretrievably.
01:15	mircea_popescu	yet people don't generally want to nor generally can be renaissance complete personalities.
01:15	decimation	which is the current situation more or less
01:15	mircea_popescu	well, the same is true of everything.
01:16	mircea_popescu	the day you quit cleanning your house it will cease to be clean.
01:16	mircea_popescu	the day you decide your financial security is "to be" ensured by nebulous third parties...
01:16	mircea_popescu	guesswhat.
01:16	mircea_popescu	they may be experts, but they aren't you.
01:16	decimation	even if they start out competent and strong, the inevitible incentives to cheat...
01:16	mircea_popescu	if you never talk to your girlfriend
01:16	mircea_popescu	ever
01:16	mircea_popescu	she will eventually quit you.
01:17	herbijudlestoids	unless youre mute
01:17	mircea_popescu	see ? this seems to be a rather universal rule.
01:17	mircea_popescu	herbijudlestoids s/talk/communicate/
01:17	herbijudlestoids	:P
01:17	herbijudlestoids	lessons in personal responsibility from mircea_popescu
01:18	mircea_popescu	well more like... you know... what alternative shall i have, woe unto me. i dun see one, other than lieing it you
01:18	mircea_popescu	(dun worry baby it'll all be alright)
01:18	decimation	"intellectuals" call it the "noble lie"
01:18	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3QCZ_bv9aLc
01:18	mircea_popescu	yes, but apparently you won't have classes, and be happy inferiors of some selected caste of masters.
01:18	mircea_popescu	this makes such lie impopssible.
01:18	Duffer1	herbijudlestoids it's a lot better than lessons from Labcoin :P
01:19	mircea_popescu	the original observation, however, to wit that politics has very quickly diminishing marginal returns, and in general you don't need more than 100 men involved in it in any case, is sound.
01:19	mircea_popescu	(fun fact : 50% of all wealth today is owned by 97 people, i hear)
01:19	herbijudlestoids	noway
01:19	herbijudlestoids	sauce?
01:20	mircea_popescu	research it, im curious if it can be confirmed
01:20	herbijudlestoids	i think its a lot lower, more like 8% :P
01:21	mircea_popescu	1% own 40%, according to the un.
01:21	mircea_popescu	i guess it depends on how conspiracy-minded the approach is.
01:21	Vexual	yeah thats the humanitarian brach of the nsa
01:22	Vexual	not really
01:22	herbijudlestoids	yes i would agree 1% own 40%...so what is 1%? seventy million people!
01:22	herbijudlestoids	another number i found for 2013 is that 29 million own 39% of global assets
01:22	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 13750 @ 0.00093454 = 12.8499 BTC [+] {2}
01:22	mircea_popescu	yeah, of which 69`999`923 people do banking with a select few :)
01:22	herbijudlestoids	lol
01:22	mircea_popescu	so in the end...
01:23	herbijudlestoids	nowaybro, if global assets includes say, a cashflow positive farm or car factory or whatever then that piece of ass(et) doesnt matter who you bank with
01:23	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HMF] 4 @ 0.02969 = 0.1188 BTC [-]
01:23	mircea_popescu	methinks i was forcing a point.
01:24	herbijudlestoids	i have heard a number that the richest 100% own a lot, but the number i heard was like 8%
01:24	herbijudlestoids	err s/100%/100 people/
01:24	Vexual	it mght affect where you are able to sell your product effectively herbi
01:24	decimation	well, it certainly is the case that money will stay in the hands of those who have the ability to hold it
01:24	decimation	and that those people are rare
01:25	mircea_popescu	ownership is a muddled thing anyway. so you own your house. you can't set it on fire. you can't dig a hole in the livingroom. etc.
01:25	decimation	everyone else needs an arrangement with the local duke or landgrave
01:25	mircea_popescu	decimation you know what a house mother is ?
01:26	decimation	Like someone who stays home to raise the children?
01:26	mircea_popescu	no.
01:26	mircea_popescu	heterosexual couples ended up doing cellular families, somehow, for some reason.
01:26	mircea_popescu	at least in the english world.
01:26	mircea_popescu	gay people however, tend[ed] to live in groups
01:27	mircea_popescu	also other opressed groups (entertainers, especially sex workers, for instace ; drug users definitely)
01:27	Vexual	hookers
01:27	mircea_popescu	much like average people going out to drink have a designated driver, these cvasi-familial arrangements have a house mother
01:27	mircea_popescu	who is the sort of... well.. landgrave, technically.
01:27	mircea_popescu	resolves "whose hairbrush it really is" disputes
01:28	Vexual	i tak eit you dont mp
01:28	herbijudlestoids	its my fucken hairbrush
01:28	mircea_popescu	in most large towns cops reflexively seek him out in any conflict
01:28	Vexual	lol
01:28	mircea_popescu	this meanwhile has expanded to college aged kids, who are in fact an opressed group by now.
01:28	decimation	yeah in frat houses in us universities there is often such a person
01:28	mircea_popescu	not deliberately, just, they're too fucking dumb and uninformed to survive in the world as it is.
01:28	mircea_popescu	and so slowly the model spreads
01:29	mircea_popescu	there's your landgrave.
01:29	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F57P9C4SAW4
01:30	mircea_popescu	so in the end, the future looks like, two to six slaves living i nthe care of one master, who gets in the wot and tries to make sense of whether mp or x or y is more sensible to keep his house's money.
01:30	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8824 @ 0.00093507 = 8.2511 BTC [+]
01:30	mircea_popescu	sorta mini-tribal.
01:30	Vexual	youtube thinks im a french tween
01:30	decimation	yeah that sounds about right
01:31	mircea_popescu	in the end, this all yields a richer conenctivity in society,
01:31	mircea_popescu	and it's a well known fact that the more connected model always emerges victorious.
01:31	Vexual	yeah then it breaks people starve and start over
01:32	mircea_popescu	which is fundamentally why england conquered scotland rather than the other way around
01:32	mircea_popescu	even though it was a scottish king who did the union
01:32	decimation	yeah here's a blog that shows a map of individualism vs. collectivism https://hbdchick.wordpress.com/2013/09/07/national-individualism-collectivism-scores/
01:32	Vexual	say that in an aberdeen pub
01:32	mircea_popescu	i woudln't call this collectivism tho.
01:32	mircea_popescu	possibly because the term is in my mind strictly related to stalin.
01:32	decimation	the individualist are better at coordinating things on a large scale
01:34	decimation	Interestingly Hungary is a major outlier in Eastern Europe
01:35	mircea_popescu	is this hbd supposed to be "sanity ready to fight spurious accusations of racism" ?
01:35	Vexual	hbd?
01:35	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23350 @ 0.00093874 = 21.9196 BTC [+] {2}
01:36	decimation	her thesis is that many of the behaviours people exhibit can be traced back to inbreeding vs. outbreeding
01:36	mircea_popescu	https://hbdchick.files.wordpress.com/2013/09/individualism-collectivism-hofstede.jpg?w=460
01:37	Vexual	how can hungary inbreed, the border keeps moving
01:37	mircea_popescu	no seriously ? can i lol yet ?
01:37	mircea_popescu	the us is under 50.
01:38	mircea_popescu	"remember that it’s the individualists who seem to work together best towards the collective — the BIG collective — society as a whole — a nation, for instance. meanwhile, the “collectivists” (as hofstede calls them) — or the clannish groups (as i call them) — don’t manage to handle, or even to create, commonweals hardly at all."
01:38	mircea_popescu	this is really very naive 1930s whig anthropology.
01:38	mircea_popescu	for one thing, the clannish groups don't actually need the large constructs like the alienated individuals do.
01:39	mircea_popescu	but anyway.
01:39	Vexual	yeah
01:39	herbijudlestoids	i need a cheeseburger
01:39	Vexual	get me one
01:39	herbijudlestoids	yes sir
01:40	herbijudlestoids	anyone else want anything?
01:40	Vexual	yeah get me the whole amore meal
01:40	herbijudlestoids	wtf is an amore meal?
01:41	Vexual	two extra cheezeburgers
01:41	mircea_popescu	yea srsly.
01:41	mircea_popescu	apparently mcd is taking advantage of the aussies' polyglot nature.
01:41	mircea_popescu	https://mcdonalds.com.au/menu/amore-big-mac-meal
01:42	herbijudlestoids	allofmywut.pptx
01:42	Vexual	yeah its acutally the fat cunt meal
01:42	herbijudlestoids	what is the amore about? as in, i love mcdonalds so much, give me one of everything on the menu?
01:42	Vexual	your girl is supposed to get a salad and eat some of your chips
01:42	mircea_popescu	no, as in take the gf. you eat the big hoovespaste thing, she eats the small one
01:43	mircea_popescu	then you fight on the apple pie
01:43	Vexual	lol
01:43	herbijudlestoids	glegh
01:43	mircea_popescu	what do these things cost anymore ?
01:43	herbijudlestoids	glad there is a proper burger joint down the end of my street
01:43	mircea_popescu	is that thing like 20 dollars ?
01:43	Vexual	bacon on mine
01:43	Vexual	if you dont mind
01:44	herbijudlestoids	mircea_popescu: id guess about that, with the current FX rate at 0.87
01:44	herbijudlestoids	altho there is the convenient big max index if you wanna work out your PPP that way
01:44	herbijudlestoids	s/max/mac
01:44	Vexual	123 bux amore
01:44	Vexual	12
01:44	mircea_popescu	i was just idly curious
01:45	mircea_popescu	last time i ate in a popular joint i left like 40 dollars there iirc.
01:45	herbijudlestoids	we just got...TGIF here
01:45	mircea_popescu	this being, of course, romania, where labour an' materials are cheap
01:46	Vexual	can one get a good burger there mp?
01:46	mircea_popescu	i never had one.
01:47	herbijudlestoids	what do you eat mircea_popescu? soylent? :D
01:47	mircea_popescu	last burger i had was at some irish restaurant in boston. i ate it with a knife and fork, much to the waitstaff's delight
01:47	cazalla	i don't know any aussies that buy a family deal from maccas
01:47	cazalla	it's usually fish and chips mate
01:47	mircea_popescu	(all the chicks came one by one to discreetly check me out)
01:47	herbijudlestoids	ooo cazalla you just paused me mid sohe
01:47	herbijudlestoids	shoe*
01:48	cazalla	i just sat down with a cuppa
01:48	mircea_popescu	herbijudlestoids http://trilema.com/2013/tandoori-mousaka/
01:48	Vexual	u veg?
01:48	herbijudlestoids	mircea_popescu: my trilema buffer is now at 5 articles, if you want me to read more you will have to pay 0.01BTC for a subscription to my HTTP GETs :P
01:48	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2012/how-to-sandwich-like-a-badass/ http://trilema.com/2012/pilaf/ etc
01:49	mircea_popescu	my blog is like an exhaustive mp compendium
01:49	Vexual	its a delicious clump of pluerotus mushrooms
01:49	mircea_popescu	haha sokay, they'll wait
01:49	mircea_popescu	Vexual no, i eat girls.
01:49	Vexual	vitamin v
01:49	herbijudlestoids	Vexual: ooo did i tell you that i am a fine grower of pleurotus eryngii?
01:49	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2012/sauerbraten/
01:50	Vexual	im not all that much of a mushroom afficianardo to be honest
01:50	herbijudlestoids	i got a lil obsessed from when i lived in victoria
01:50	cazalla	those tomatoes look average
01:50	Vexual	unless theyre draped on a porterhouse
01:50	herbijudlestoids	lactarius deliciosus especially
01:50	cazalla	then again, i grow my own (heat wave is killing em atm though)
01:51	herbijudlestoids	ok fucken ill be back, going to get some burgers before you guys convince me off it completely
01:51	Vexual	what cut is that mp? lower back?
01:51	Duffer1	;;google congestive heart failure
01:51	gribble	Congestive Heart Failure Symptoms, Causes, and Treatment - WebMD: <http://www.webmd.com/heart-disease/guide-heart-failure>; Heart failure - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia: <http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heart_failure>; Congestive Heart Failure - American Heart Association: <http://www.heart.org/HEARTORG/Conditions/CongenitalHeartDefects/TheImpactofCongenitalHeartDefects/Congestive- (1 more message)
01:52	Vexual	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nIra8QTbKgs
01:53	mircea_popescu	actually, wow there's a ton of shit. http://trilema.com/2012/martipan/ http://trilema.com/2012/nsfw-cum-gatim-curcan/ http://trilema.com/rata-pe-varza-umpluta-cu-legume http://trilema.com/sa-carabanim-un-crab http://trilema.com/ce-mincam-vara http://trilema.com/paste-n-sos-de-rosii http://trilema.com/2011/sugestie-de-prezentare/ and finally : http://trilema.com/2012/o-mina-priceputa-acum-cu-ilustratii/
01:53	mircea_popescu	there's like... 500`000 trillion apparently.
01:54	mircea_popescu	Vexual which one ?
01:54	mircea_popescu	ah the sauerbraten. upper leg.
01:54	Vexual	sauerbraten
01:54	Vexual	mmm, do you keep beef?
01:55	Vexual	whats the marinade, i cant translate, too salivating
01:55	mircea_popescu	Tot in practica eu n-o marinez in otet, cum e ideea nemteasca, ci-n vin, ceva rosu (in imagine dinsus aveti un cupaj de Merlot / Pinot Noir de la Recas. Daca nu sunteti alcolisti ca si mine puteti folosi lapte batut, am mincat o data facuta asa de austriece miini, fu delicioasa. (Si, si).
01:56	Vexual	yeah
01:56	mircea_popescu	also in practice, i don't use vinegar, like the germans, i use wine, something red (depicted above, merlot/pinot noir from recas)
01:56	Vexual	i feel you
01:56	mircea_popescu	if you're not alcoholics like me you can use buttermilk, i had it once made by austrian hands, it was delicious (both)
01:57	Vexual	that looks like thew kinda cut that gets full price in japan
01:58	Vexual	i see four steaks
01:58	KRS1	Billy Goat? lol
01:58	mircea_popescu	lotta mouths to feed.
01:59	Vexual	yeah u roast in the cast iron?
02:00	mircea_popescu	yeah
02:00	mircea_popescu	or clay dutch oven
02:01	Vexual	on a fire in the garden?
02:02	mircea_popescu	nah
02:02	mircea_popescu	too much hassle to improvise useful fires when you got an oven and everything
02:03	Vexual	thats why theres a lip on the lid of the pot, for coals
02:04	Vexual	you with your fancy gas
02:07	mircea_popescu	:p
02:07	twizt	.bait
02:08	twizt	;9
02:08	twizt	;(*
02:08	KRS1	;;seen ozbot
02:08	gribble	ozbot was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 9 hours, 27 minutes, and 47 seconds ago: <ozbot> 2193847870.17428 | Next Diff in 610 blocks | Estimated Change: 17.0561% in 3d 12h 14m 55s
02:09	KRS1	no bait tonight
02:09	Vexual	;;see Graet
02:09	gribble	Error: "see" is not a valid command.
02:09	Vexual	;;seenGraet
02:09	gribble	Error: "seenGraet" is not a valid command.
02:09	Vexual	;;seen raet
02:09	gribble	I have not seen raet.
02:10	Vexual	;;seen Graet
02:10	gribble	Graet was last seen in #bitcoin-assets 17 weeks, 2 days, 15 hours, 56 minutes, and 54 seconds ago: <Graet> yep, got eta tho?
02:10	Vexual	drool fail
02:10	mircea_popescu	http://25.media.tumblr.com/85351720c79eb5e87ef5429a7b5c73be/tumblr_mhyfurBsTJ1rmcr76o1_1280.jpg
02:10	mircea_popescu	there. double cheezburgers, an' goodnite.
02:13	Vexual	me too, im off to find spatchcock
02:15	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 10 @ 0.18 = 1.8 BTC [-] {2}
02:18	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 33400 @ 0.00093964 = 31.384 BTC [+] {3}
02:20	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 7 @ 0.11237142 = 0.7866 BTC [+] {6}
02:21	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 6 @ 0.125 = 0.75 BTC [+]
02:25	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 2 @ 0.24310363 = 0.4862 BTC
02:27	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 2 @ 0.24310363 = 0.4862 BTC
02:27	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.58 BTC [-]
02:30	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.24310363 = 0.7293 BTC
02:32	dub	wat
02:32	dub	usagi back?
02:37	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26847 @ 0.0009401 = 25.2389 BTC [+] {2}
02:46	KRS1	hah that bait looks lionish rawr
02:54	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 34950 @ 0.00093577 = 32.7052 BTC [-]
03:03	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 4 @ 0.08154999 = 0.3262 BTC [-] {4}
03:04	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 10 @ 0.07741 = 0.7741 BTC [-] {3}
03:06	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.109 BTC [-]
03:11	Namworld	There are so many people borrowing USD to go long on BTC on Bitfinex...
03:12	herbijudlestoids	gg
03:12	herbijudlestoids	leverage always ends well
03:12	herbijudlestoids	at least the borrow rate is relatively low for USD :P
03:13	Namworld	relatively low? looks kind of high
03:13	Namworld	The "usury" kind of high
03:14	Namworld	18.7 million USD vs 3000 BTC borrowed
03:19	herbijudlestoids	whats the USD interbank rate? 0.25%? 0.5%? here in aus its ~3%
03:19	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11350 @ 0.00093459 = 10.6076 BTC [-] {2}
03:19	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.11899999 = 0.238 BTC [+] {2}
03:28	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.1205 = 0.241 BTC [+] {2}
03:35	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 26313 @ 0.00093379 = 24.5708 BTC [-] {2}
03:37	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 2 @ 0.24310363 = 0.4862 BTC
03:39	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1761 @ 0.00280177 = 4.9339 BTC [-] {7}
03:42	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 617 @ 0.00093354 = 0.576 BTC [-]
		~ 23 minutes ~
04:06	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 5 @ 0.1242 = 0.621 BTC [+] {2}
04:10	Namworld	I have no idea
04:10	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.24310363 BTC
04:11	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.18 BTC [-]
04:13	Namworld	Why the discussion about the interbank rate?
04:16	Namworld	Whatever they are, they're lower than Bitfinex
04:19	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.24310363 BTC
04:23	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23750 @ 0.00093454 = 22.1953 BTC [+]
04:32	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 4 @ 0.12475 = 0.499 BTC [+] {2}
04:36	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.24310363 BTC
04:37	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28900 @ 0.00093579 = 27.0443 BTC [+] {3}
04:38	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.24310363 BTC
		~ 16 minutes ~
04:55	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28000 @ 0.00093136 = 26.0781 BTC [-] {2}
05:02	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6623 @ 0.00093132 = 6.1681 BTC [-]
05:06	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31825 @ 0.00092988 = 29.5934 BTC [-]
05:09	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30050 @ 0.00092929 = 27.9252 BTC [-] {2}
05:11	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8350 @ 0.00092862 = 7.754 BTC [-]
05:20	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29640 @ 0.00093194 = 27.6227 BTC [+] {2}
05:30	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 30100 @ 0.00093535 = 28.154 BTC [+] {2}
05:32	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 3527 @ 0.002801 = 9.8791 BTC [-] {4}
05:40	herbijudlestoids	anyone around?
05:40	Duffer1	how's it goin
05:41	herbijudlestoids	alright, just trying to plug sensitivity analysis into the just-dice numbers
05:41	herbijudlestoids	not sure there is a positive kelly criterion value so the best bet is to "invest" with the house
05:42	herbijudlestoids	yeah...all the values seem to come out negative, not including the house edge
05:42	Duffer1	do you have your own site or blog where you're showing this info?
05:44	herbijudlestoids	nope
05:44	Duffer1	are you just analyzing for the hell of it or do you intend to apply your findings to trade?
05:45	herbijudlestoids	this is the equation f=(p*(b+1)-1)/b where b=0.65 and p=0.6
05:45	herbijudlestoids	and then i did sensitivity analysis for b and p looking for positive f values
05:46	Duffer1	right, but why hehe
05:46	herbijudlestoids	hmm well im analysing because some people on here mentioned it, id only apply if i could find an optimal betting equation
05:46	herbijudlestoids	i find it nice you can invest with the house tho
05:46	Duffer1	oh i see
05:47	Duffer1	i wish dooglus hung out in b-a
05:48	Duffer1	i bet that'd be very interesting
05:52	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 200 @ 0.00280003 = 0.56 BTC [-] {4}
05:59	Namworld	Possibly
06:10	Namworld	If there's no house edge, then it's always going to be zero for f. Unless there's rounding issues in the winnings vs odds since you can adjust those.
06:11	Namworld	If the odds are negative (house edge), f will be negative.
06:11	Namworld	So you know... go with the house
06:21	herbijudlestoids	Namworld: thought thats what i said
06:22	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 21950 @ 0.00092817 = 20.3733 BTC [-] {4}
06:26	jurov	that's clear, but did you come with best strategy when to withdraw?
06:35	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 30 @ 0.24310363 = 7.2931 BTC
06:38	herbijudlestoids	jurov: i have some ideas already ;)
06:38	herbijudlestoids	we know the long run house edge is 1% but highly volatile in the short term, so basically arb against that 1%
06:40	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 9 @ 0.24310363 = 2.1879 BTC
06:51	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 25966 @ 0.00092694 = 24.0689 BTC [-] {3}
06:53	herbijudlestoids	ok
06:53	herbijudlestoids	well duffer1 is gone but i made it into a blog post http://bitquant.blogspot.com.au/2014/02/just-dice-kelly-criterion-sensitivity.html
06:59	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 100 @ 0.00292356 = 0.2924 BTC [+]
07:05	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.24310363 BTC
07:06	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2234 @ 0.00092577 = 2.0682 BTC [-]
07:11	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24000 @ 0.00092941 = 22.3058 BTC [+]
07:20	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 12 @ 0.04750011 = 0.57 BTC [+]
07:21	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 5 @ 0.1792 = 0.896 BTC [-] {2}
07:22	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 12 @ 0.17299166 = 2.0759 BTC [-] {3}
07:24	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 3 @ 0.075 = 0.225 BTC [-]
07:27	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.07200002 = 0.144 BTC [-] {2}
07:30	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 6 @ 0.0731 = 0.4386 BTC [-] {2}
07:30	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HIF] 993 @ 0.000405 = 0.4022 BTC [-] {5}
07:32	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8884 @ 0.00092862 = 8.2499 BTC [-]
07:34	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 47149 @ 0.00092626 = 43.6722 BTC [-] {3}
07:44	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.164 BTC [-]
07:45	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.16366666 BTC [-]
07:46	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 2 @ 0.24310363 = 0.4862 BTC
07:49	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [MS] 200 @ 0.005 = 1 BTC
07:55	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.18999998 BTC [+]
07:56	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.18999999 = 1.71 BTC [+]
07:58	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 8 @ 0.19 = 1.52 BTC [+]
08:03	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 31600 @ 0.0009256 = 29.249 BTC [-]
08:07	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11400 @ 0.0009256 = 10.5518 BTC [-]
08:18	jurov	herbijudlestoids, good article. i did not realize there's formula for this
08:22	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 10 @ 0.24310363 = 2.431 BTC
08:23	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 28650 @ 0.00092547 = 26.5147 BTC [-] {2}
08:24	herbijudlestoids	jurov: glad you liked it! :)
08:24	herbijudlestoids	jurov: i put it on reddit, but im not really a bitcoin person so i dunno where is good to share it to generate some discussion, if theres anywhere you think might be interested pls feel free to repost it there
08:25	jurov	where? i can upvote
08:26	herbijudlestoids	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1wsvc7/bitquant_justdice_kelly_criterion_sensitivity/
08:27	jurov	just put it ro /r/bitcoin under catchytitle and hope for the best
08:27	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.1711 BTC [-]
08:27	herbijudlestoids	yep thats approx what i did :P dunno how catchy the title is
08:28	herbijudlestoids	anyway, bed now, goodnight
08:28	jurov	i am not an expert, maybe ask Bingo
08:32	assbot	[MPEX] [S.BBET] 2000 @ 0.000645 = 1.29 BTC [+]
08:32	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14140 @ 0.00092537 = 13.0847 BTC [-] {2}
08:34	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12650 @ 0.00092969 = 11.7606 BTC [+] {2}
08:34	assbot	[MPEX] [FT] [X.EUR] 150 @ 0.00166806 = 0.2502 BTC [+]
08:41	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.04979776 = 0.1992 BTC [+]
08:42	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 24600 @ 0.0009302 = 22.8829 BTC [+]
08:43	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 8 @ 0.04979777 = 0.3984 BTC [+]
08:50	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5900 @ 0.00092499 = 5.4574 BTC [-]
08:59	mircea_popescu	so since pretty much anyone here has a better knowledge of webstuff than i do, here's a question :
09:00	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22800 @ 0.00093333 = 21.2799 BTC [+] {2}
09:00	mircea_popescu	inasmuch as you're going to do a site with accounts, which people can log in over http (stupid as this may be)
09:00	mircea_popescu	wouldn't the best practice be, that upon user registration you generate a user salt and a nonce, send these as a hashed cookie,
09:01	mircea_popescu	and upon each subsequent login you a) check if the user has the old cookie ; b) hash the salt, store it, increment the nonce, store it ; c) send a new cookie
09:02	mircea_popescu	if your salt+nonce -> cookie process is deterministic you can even verify it's the same actual user to any arbitrary degree of fineness (such as, same ip)
		↖
09:03	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [MS] 25 @ 0.005 = 0.125 BTC
09:03	mircea_popescu	the question being, is anyone currently doing this ?
09:04	mircea_popescu	(obviously in this case by "login" i mean, any http request to your server at all)
09:08	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.175 BTC [+]
09:09	nubbins`	hi
09:11	mircea_popescu	buna sa-ti fie inima, straine.
09:15	mircea_popescu	;;later tell herbijudlestoids those same people said to you http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=01-02-2014#472180
09:15	gribble	The operation succeeded.
09:15	nubbins`	toată lumea de aici este strainu
09:15	mircea_popescu	haha
09:15	nubbins`	or whatever :D
09:16	mircea_popescu	"este straină"
09:16	mircea_popescu	but otherwise wd.
09:16	mircea_popescu	anywya : hi in romanian is, to this day, "buna ziua", ie good day.
09:16	mircea_popescu	the ancientest response to this is "may your heart be good, stranger"
09:16	mircea_popescu	used liberally cca... 1700
09:17	nubbins`	that's bordering on an arabic level of eloquence
09:17	mircea_popescu	romania had been bordering on an arabic invasion of the western world all through the middle ages.
09:17	nubbins`	well there ya go!
09:18	nubbins`	peace be upon you as well, etc
09:18	mircea_popescu	for instance the town i live in, has been sieged by the turks and by the germans about 18 times, switching sides like 7
09:18	mircea_popescu	because it controls the only easy access into the west from constantinople.
09:18	nubbins`	fun fact, i only learned two arabic phrases when visiting morocco
09:18	mircea_popescu	bismallah being one ?
09:19	nubbins`	actually only learned that one afterward
09:19	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.175 BTC [+]
09:19	nubbins`	anyway, people were much less impressed with my wa'alaykum salaam when it became clear that i didn't need to buy a rug
09:20	mircea_popescu	;;later tell herbijudlestoids srsly, blogspot ? why such evil ;/
09:20	gribble	The operation succeeded.
09:20	mircea_popescu	hahaha
09:21	nubbins`	"cutting a rug" is a euphemism here, but not for what you'd think
09:21	mircea_popescu	dancing ?
09:21	nubbins`	you're more perceptive than most
09:21	nubbins`	also known as "having a scuff"
09:21	mircea_popescu	you know, all that grammar truffles doesn't know.
09:21	mircea_popescu	i know it >D
09:22	KRS-	"cleaning a rug" is a euphamism here, commonly paired with "laying pipe".
09:22	KRS-	.bait
09:22	nubbins`	﷽‎
09:22	nubbins`	^ that's a single glyph!
09:23	KRS-	How did you type nothing
09:23	nubbins`	how do you not have any arabic fonts installed?
09:23	mircea_popescu	amusingly, it reads like a square with f0f0 written in it, which'd be a short form of a romanian euphemism for... cunt, of course
09:23	KRS-	ah thats why
09:23	mircea_popescu	fofoloanca.
09:23	KRS-	haha
09:23	nubbins`	right in the fofolanca
09:23	mircea_popescu	maybe it's really fdfd and im just being freudian
09:23	pankkake	mircea_popescu: most websites, and almost all frameworks I've seen, only use a cookie that isn't refreshed, and is either left to expire stupidly, or never expiring
09:24	mircea_popescu	pankkake so then this'd be beyond my comprehension. why in the fuck ?
09:24	nubbins`	pankkake: fuckit, drive space is cheap ;p
09:24	pankkake	if you add a signed timestamp to the cookie, maybe you can limit logins from old stolen cookies
09:24	mircea_popescu	obviously you have to chain cookies if you're using that retarded method of keeping track of user state.
09:24	nubbins`	my favourite euphemism for pussy these days is "ham wallet"
09:24	mircea_popescu	what are you, an aluminum siding salesman ?!
09:25	nubbins`	great for industrial buildings as well as the home!
09:25	mircea_popescu	(guy walks into a girlscout cookie clambake. as the festivities progress he keeps getting more and more excited
09:25	KRS-	pankkake: good luck with that cookie strategy if you are using multiple web servers
09:25	mircea_popescu	eventually he asks a supervisor : so when do you skewer their meatflaps already ?)
09:25	mircea_popescu	KRS- what'd be the problem ?
09:26	pankkake	KRS-: it's a signed cookie, not session cookie; and managing sessions over multiple servers is possible too
09:26	pankkake	but usually the process is that you have an auth cookie (lifetime = high), and a session cookie (lifetime = short)
09:26	nubbins`	managing sessions over several servers is commonplace
09:26	pankkake	and we're only talking about the auth cookie
09:26	mircea_popescu	pankkake so is the session cookie changed on each pageload ?
09:26	KRS-	Load balanced web servers would associate that cookie to one particular web server, if the load balancer stategy isn't carefully chosen (if possible) when the load balancer shifts traffic the cookie could become invalid beecause another web server doesn't know about the cookie.
09:27	nubbins`	^
09:27	mircea_popescu	KRS- inasmuch as they all run your code they all know about the cookie.
09:27	nubbins`	have seen this
09:27	pankkake	no, it doesn't change, that's the point
09:27	mircea_popescu	pankkake well that's fucktarded.
09:27	pankkake	unless you store session data in it, but usually it's just a secret ID
09:28	nubbins`	had to troubleshoot a web app once where there was a round-robin load balancing setup. each new page request launched a new session, up to a max of 3 (the number of servers)
09:28	KRS-	I've dealt with this problem before. You have to carefully pick a load balanced strategy or pick another session persistence.
09:28	mircea_popescu	why so much derp ;/
09:28	pankkake	the session cookie isn't kept. if you close the browser, it's removed, etc.
09:29	pankkake	it's a poor's man stateful over stateless crap
09:29	nubbins`	what are you guys talking about, anyway
09:29	mircea_popescu	very poor man.
09:29	KRS-	This is my kind of it work, not much of a developer..love this stuffl.
09:29	mircea_popescu	today we learn nubbins` doth not read the logs
09:30	nubbins`	i read like halfway through today
09:30	nubbins`	lotta noise ;(
09:30	KRS-	pankkake gets it =D
09:30	KRS-	sysadmin pankkake?
09:30	pankkake	but the auth cookie thing is interesting. it wouldn't be so hard to write a more secure implementation that most of what's out there
09:30	KRS-	true
09:30	nubbins`	oh jeez, literally right before i joined
09:30	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17200 @ 0.00093336 = 16.0538 BTC [+] {2}
09:30	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.16366666 = 0.3273 BTC [-]
09:30	pankkake	sysadmin for fun and dev for work, basically
09:31	KRS-	ya its hard to find work as sysadmin where I live, but the work lasts a very long time.
09:31	KRS-	secure
09:32	nubbins`	so let's suppose the user loses their old cookie, what then?
09:32	KRS-	sign back in
09:32	KRS-	unless like pankkake said, its just a signed cookie not session
09:32	nubbins`	but http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2014#474411
09:33	nubbins`	you're no longer verifying it's anybody if the old cookie is gone, no?
09:33	pankkake	ooh actually I wrote something like it earlier, without thinking much about it. the auth cookie has an expiration, but at every session cookie recreation, the auth cookie is refreshed
09:34	nubbins`	sure, but suppose the user clears his cookies.
09:34	pankkake	so it allows auth cookies that still expire fast, while not forcing you to relogin if you visit the site often
09:34	pankkake	well any cookie removal logs you out obviously
09:34	KRS-	mitm comes to mind
09:34	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6651 @ 0.00093273 = 6.2036 BTC [-]
09:35	nubbins`	so you can verify it's the same user logging in each time, unless they perform a relatively common, semmingly benign action, like clearing their cookies
09:35	nubbins`	why even bother with all the hocus pocus?
09:36	KRS-	maybe to incorporate the salt+nonce that mircea_popescu was talking about?
09:36	KRS-	not sure
09:36	pankkake	it's a way to ensure you only have fresh cookies - stealing old cookies cannot work
09:36	pankkake	helps prevent replay attacks… kinda
09:36	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15766 @ 0.0009273 = 14.6198 BTC [-]
09:36	nubbins`	hm
09:36	pankkake	it's not going to be very good
09:37	nubbins`	seems like rubber bands and paperclips
09:37	pankkake	when I did implement that thing, it was more because I wanted cookies to expire in a smarter way
09:37	nubbins`	if you're that worried, just let the auth cookies expire after a half hour.
09:38	nubbins`	there's no "keep me logged in" checkbox on my bank's website
09:38	nubbins`	if you're worried about cookies being stolen, there should be no such checkbox on your site either
09:39	pankkake	my bank is using RC4 "encryption"
09:39	pankkake	128 bit too
09:39	pankkake	and if you try to force it to do something else, it rejects you
09:40	pankkake	lol, banks
09:42	nubbins`	when i lived in korea, my bank required that i ran an activex control, had a cookie stored on a usb thumb drive, and asked for two separate five-digit codes from a list of about 50 that were provided as a wallet-sized card
09:42	nubbins`	before i could even enter my card number :o
09:42	nubbins`	such intentions, many fail, etc
09:42	asciilifeform	ah, korea, land of eternal IE6.
09:42	nubbins`	^
09:42	KRS-	why RC4
09:43	KRS-	securing transport layer is hard anyway
09:43	pankkake	mircea_popescu: http://docs.pylonsproject.org/projects/pyramid/en/latest/api/authentication.html see reissue_time, it looks like those guys thought of it too :)
09:44	pankkake	KRS-: probably because of the BEAST attack, but they must have botched the configuration
09:44	KRS-	hopefully they are using it together with another mechanism, which is probably the case and would be just fine.
09:44	pankkake	no, they are very incompetent
09:45	KRS-	seems to be the case everywhere..
09:45	pankkake	1) it's a bank 2) it's a FRENCH bank 3) their website reeks incompetence
09:46	KRS-	pankkake I've done a lot of consulting...from the private sector to government..none of them got it right. I imagine the big guys do like BOA, Google, etc.
09:46	pankkake	sadly the gpg over http projects seem to go nowhere
09:47	KRS-	One exception was the Florida Turnpike Enterprise (a private business implementation of a government roadway function to accept tolls and what not)..they had a firm grasp on I.T. security from their payment processor to their wireless roadway nodes..I was very impressed.
09:47	KRS-	Ya wonder why that is..it seems pretty solid to me.
09:48	nubbins`	years ago i did maintenance on a lottery corporation website
09:48	nubbins`	THEY had security figured out
09:49	pankkake	CACert allows you to authenticate with a browser certificate, though. I don't know any other website allowing it
09:51	mircea_popescu	pankkake too late, ima post it.
09:51	nubbins`	i should take a dump before the gym
09:51	pankkake	post what?
09:54	asciilifeform	http://cryptome.org/2014/02/nsa-gchq-quisquater.pdf
09:56	nubbins`	nice formatting ;(
09:56	asciilifeform	nubbins`: not mine
09:58	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 6912 @ 0.00093379 = 6.4544 BTC [+]
09:59	mircea_popescu	nubbins` that korea story reminds me of playing old z80 games
09:59	mircea_popescu	"please look in your manual to continue moving larry around the lounge"
10:00	KRS-	pankkake: probably because the CA cert won't complete the certificate chain for the general public. The cert would have to be signed by a custom CA I think.
10:00	nubbins`	lel yeah
10:00	nubbins`	"to continue sir graham's quest, type the 8th word on page 5"
10:00	mircea_popescu	<nubbins`> seems like rubber bands and paperclips << it's fucking stateful http. It WOULD be.
10:00	KRS-	large intranets would prob use that
10:01	nubbins`	anyway, time to strap myself to a torture machine for an hour, seeya
10:01	KRS-	c ya
10:02	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12150 @ 0.00092794 = 11.2745 BTC [-]
		~ 19 minutes ~
10:21	water4ll	who is trading S.MPOE?
10:23	jurov	water4ll, there were ~40 new mpex accounts last month alone
10:23	jurov	plus others via coinbr
10:23	water4ll	I'm just a little surprised at consistent trading volume
10:23	mircea_popescu	why is consistent trading volume surprising ?
10:24	water4ll	well it's a higher barrier to entry than say havelock
10:24	water4ll	even with broker
10:24	jurov	i'd say the barrier motivates people to take care of their assets
10:24	water4ll	and high value traded too, none of that 0.05btc nonsense
10:24	water4ll	always 10,20 etc
10:25	mircea_popescu	water4ll yes, the fact that mpex is a respectable exchange makes it have consistent volume
10:25	mircea_popescu	unlike all the scamexchanges to date.
10:25	mircea_popescu	what in there is surprising ?
10:25	water4ll	seems a lot of inflated volume
10:25	mircea_popescu	Feb 02 05:05:26 <assbot>[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 588 @ 0.00093125 = 0.5476 BTC [+]
10:26	mircea_popescu	it happens, but apparently not too often.
10:26	mircea_popescu	water4ll listen, there's a difference between "i don't want X to be true and therefore i'll say things" and "X is surprising".
10:26	jurov	water4ll, i'm doing S.MPOE/BBET-PT passthrough payout and in 3 months so far only half of people went through it
10:26	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [MS] 30 @ 0.005 = 0.15 BTC
10:26	jurov	it clearly shows they don't give a fuck
10:26	jurov	unlike on mpex
10:26	water4ll	jurov": what do you mean? via coinbr?
10:26	jurov	they paid (or have to pay monthly)
10:27	jurov	yes, it's the passthrought from BTCT
10:27	water4ll	BTCT I thought closed down some time ago
10:27	water4ll	oh nvm
10:27	water4ll	got t
10:27	mircea_popescu	wow you still struggling with that ?!
10:27	water4ll	lol
10:27	water4ll	hard to keep track these days
10:27	mircea_popescu	poor jurov lol
10:27	jurov	yes, i just left it there
10:27	water4ll	glbse bitfunder
10:28	jurov	no additional expense
10:29	jurov	hey everyone who was on btct, try checking here: https://coinbr.com/btct/nampt_1
10:29	jurov	maybe you'll get a surprise ;)
10:30	jurov	and if you want to try coinbr, you have free 1 month till next monthly fee and 1 free withdrawal
10:30	mircea_popescu	now that's an idea
10:30	mircea_popescu	prolly best advertised on forum tho
10:30	jurov	oh, it was announced there when I put it online\
10:31	jurov	and then again and again
10:31	jurov	they just cnat raed
10:31	mircea_popescu	why would theyu right ?
10:32	mircea_popescu	like that jimmothy fellow. "ingore everything that's said, quote wikipedia"
10:32	mircea_popescu	anyway, http://trilema.com/2014/your-cookies-are-borkt-seriously/ if anyone would like to critique.
10:33	water4ll	mircea_popescu: how many articles do you pump out daily?
10:33	mircea_popescu	been averaging 1-2 in 2013.
10:33	mircea_popescu	bout where it is, 30-60 a month.
10:33	water4ll	Wow
10:34	mircea_popescu	lol you think that's wow, talk to benkay. i think he's done thirty this week.
10:34	water4ll	I tried to write a blog once, after 5 minutes I found myself opening some new tabs
10:35	mircea_popescu	to quote george for you, "They're men with jobs, Jerry! ... They're married, they have secretaries."
10:35	water4ll	http://samy.pl/evercookie/
10:36	mircea_popescu	that sounds like the clap not a cookie.
10:37	water4ll	they are both persistent
10:40	ThickerThanThiev	I'm also not savvy on cookies, but my naive question is, why doesn't the browser manage user auth?
10:41	pankkake	mircea_popescu: your irc copy paste is broken, the last part is about using RC4, and not related to the rest
10:41	mircea_popescu	oh
10:41	pankkake	i.e. anything after "Probably because of the BEAST attack"
10:41	water4ll	crime more concern than beast
10:41	mircea_popescu	so is psylon a french bank ?
10:42	pankkake	pylons is a web framework, sort of
10:42	pankkake	I don't know why you mangled those two things together
10:42	mircea_popescu	that's nice, had too much quite in there anyway. check it ?
10:42	mircea_popescu	why, because i'm doing fifty things that;s why.
10:42	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.24310363 BTC
10:43	mircea_popescu	be glad i don't accidentally insert nudes in rndom tech articles or something.
10:43	pankkake	that would be less confusing
10:43	water4ll	mircea_popescu: I think it's time
10:44	mircea_popescu	"it too :)" alligns with "probably" on the next line in my view. so i just read over krs and thus it formed one line.
10:44	water4ll	has anybody got the address of rpietila's new private bitcoin forum
10:44	mircea_popescu	lmao
10:44	mircea_popescu	you can't have that unless you post a pic with a bunch of junk metal all over your head.
10:44	water4ll	i sent shoe on head pic to him via pm
10:45	water4ll	nobody here invited?
10:45	mircea_popescu	sorry man. can't share it without the pic.
10:45	mircea_popescu	that's what he said.
10:45	water4ll	http://tinypic.com/view.php?pic=v3f1c8&s=5
10:48	mircea_popescu	you're a pregnant woman.
10:48	water4ll	http://trilema.com/2014/why-do-gentlemen-prefer-blondes/
10:48	water4ll	she said the 3rd is the cutest
10:48	water4ll	whatever brand of animal these are
10:48	water4ll	but you can barely see it
10:48	water4ll	it's covered by the other one
10:48	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2012/lectie-comasata-atit-de-decadentism-cit-si-de-bogatie-de-lux/ the shit i find. champagne float.
10:49	water4ll	I have to be frugal with these links
10:49	mircea_popescu	yeah srsly.
10:49	water4ll	open cupboard is bare
10:49	mircea_popescu	or go mine some ATC and trade it for BTC to buy Trilema credits with
10:49	mircea_popescu	a crypto economy!
10:49	water4ll	need to travel pickup few precious trilemna credits
10:49	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HMF] 13 @ 0.02900003 = 0.377 BTC [-] {4}
10:50	water4ll	mircea_popescu: will you stay in romania for remainder of your life?
10:50	mircea_popescu	i've only come here recently. i was in cr/central america for a few years.
10:50	mircea_popescu	the us before that, etc.
10:51	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HMF] 12 @ 0.02895 = 0.3474 BTC [-] {3}
10:51	water4ll	I had known some guys from romania, they couldn't wait to leave. for places like HK
10:51	water4ll	I've not been personally
10:51	mircea_popescu	how old were they ?
10:52	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 2 @ 0.24310363 = 0.4862 BTC
10:52	water4ll	some in early 20's some in 30's
10:52	water4ll	very enterprising bunch
10:52	mircea_popescu	were they poor ? were they married ?
10:52	water4ll	well they started selling potatoes
10:53	water4ll	so initially poor, but now mostly have plenty of $
10:53	mircea_popescu	in short : why should it be surprising that socially and sexually unattached young males wish to travel ? of course they would, if they're healthy.
10:53	kakobrekla	hey
10:53	kakobrekla	we are getting assraped here
10:53	water4ll	not so much travel, because they don't have intention of coming back
10:53	mircea_popescu	kakobrekla waitwut ?
10:53	mircea_popescu	water4ll that's travel.
10:54	kakobrekla	whole country = code red
10:54	mircea_popescu	snow ?
10:54	kakobrekla	yes
10:54	kakobrekla	ice
10:54	mircea_popescu	you don't deserve it.
10:54	kakobrekla	no power no nothing.
10:54	kakobrekla	no water
10:54	water4ll	where is snow?
10:54	mircea_popescu	you got snow right ? whatcha mean no water.
10:54	kakobrekla	from the pipes!
10:54	water4ll	kakobrekia: which country?
10:54	kakobrekla	slovenia
10:55	mircea_popescu	take girl out, remove bra, put snow on her, obtain water from the titties.
10:55	mircea_popescu	better than water from the pipes.
10:55	water4ll	wow it looks so beautiful
10:55	kakobrekla	anyway, im on my last ups now and its running low, so i might be offline for a day or three
10:55	mircea_popescu	jesus.
10:55	mircea_popescu	listen, come over.
10:55	water4ll	just a ps soon
10:56	kakobrekla	im not driving in this weather
10:56	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.24310363 BTC
10:56	mircea_popescu	well i can't teleport you
10:56	mircea_popescu	there's no power there.
10:56	kakobrekla	yes sucks.
10:56	kakobrekla	hehe
10:56	deadweasel	snowmobile?
10:56	deadweasel	:P
10:56	mircea_popescu	exercise 1 hr, irc 5 minutes
10:57	mircea_popescu	a week later, kako looks like peyton manning
10:57	kakobrekla	lmao
10:57	water4ll	kako 'mr legs' brekla
10:57	mircea_popescu	the best part of any frog.
10:59	mircea_popescu	http://www.montrealgazette.com/travel/Thousands+without+electricity+Slovenia+weather+also+causes/9459657/story.html
11:00	mircea_popescu	pic looks good.
11:00	water4ll	I love the snow
11:00	water4ll	isn't it exciting?
11:00	water4ll	even better when trails are cancelled and lights go out
11:01	mircea_popescu	yeah well, some people got shit to do.
11:02	water4ll	I just use as excuse to smoke in train toilet
11:02	water4ll	then you can relax and read a book or something
11:02	water4ll	makes a change to normal dailly routine
11:03	mircea_popescu	kakobrekla think about it tho. here everything's fine, snow is melting. you can see the ground.
11:03	water4ll	the water in slovenia is so clean
11:03	mircea_popescu	sucks to drive for a few hours but what if you're stuck there for 2 weeks
11:04	water4ll	I don't understand why you can be trapped anywhere in the snow
		↖
11:05	water4ll	wow
11:05	water4ll	http://www.darioendara.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/05/22-Slovenia-snow-horse.jpg
11:05	water4ll	look at this snow horse
11:06	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9940 @ 0.00093092 = 9.2533 BTC [+] {2}
11:09	kakobrekla	ok, going back dark, wish me luck.
11:09	kakobrekla	cya
11:09	water4ll	stay strong
11:12	jurov	kakobrekla, no trains either? here we have a little ice, but no such problems
11:12	jurov	just go to vienna and from there
11:13	jurov	gone ...
11:13	water4ll	been consumed by an avalanche
11:14	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7800 @ 0.00092823 = 7.2402 BTC [-]
11:14	mircea_popescu	apparently railroads are blocked too
11:14	mircea_popescu	serbia can't move into hungary etc
11:15	water4ll	what's the problem, stock up on wood and candles and food
11:16	jurov	but if you heat by electricity...
11:17	jurov	and slovenia has usually mild climate, they don't have gas/central heaters everywhere like here
11:17	water4ll	oh
11:28	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 13000 @ 0.00011108 = 1.444 BTC [+] {6}
11:29	ThickerThanThiev	During Fiscal Year 2013, the Bureau of Engraving and Printing delivered approximately 26 million notes a day with a face value of approximately $1.3 billion. About 90 percent of the notes are used to replace notes already in, or taken out of circulation.
11:29	ThickerThanThiev	How do you replace a note already in circulation?
11:31	ThickAsThieves	<mircea_popescu> https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=443108.msg4887312#msg4887312 << seems they've decided it's called ALT not ATC. <<< The hear wants what the hear wants!
11:31	ThickAsThieves	heart*
11:31	mircea_popescu	indeed.
11:32	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves what they mean is "notes are used to either send to consumers which sell us burned/destroyed paper money, or else to banks or other institutions that have the authority to remove paper from circulation"
11:32	mircea_popescu	but reporter can't write.
11:33	ThickAsThieves	its from the the official website
11:33	ThickAsThieves	hehe
11:33	ThickAsThieves	great domain too http://www.moneyfactory.gov/uscurrency/annualproductionfigures.html
11:34	mircea_popescu	yeah, great indeed.
11:34	ThickAsThieves	is there a counter like the National Debt Clock for dollar dilution?
11:34	ThickAsThieves	thats all i'm looking for really
11:34	mircea_popescu	no.
11:34	mircea_popescu	they ceased publishing the m3 in 2005
11:35	mircea_popescu	becase "it wasn't interesting"
11:35	mircea_popescu	notwithstanding the only time i heard someone in this channel wanting some sort of info from the usg
11:35	mircea_popescu	it was you wanting the m3 above.
11:35	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SFI] 233 @ 0.00083501 = 0.1946 BTC [-] {2}
11:36	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SFI] 1767 @ 0.00082157 = 1.4517 BTC [-] {11}
11:37	ThickAsThieves	the clock wouldnt tell the whole story anyway I guess, but would still be an easy way to show US people clearly what happens
11:37	ThickAsThieves	people really dont understand money gets printed daily
11:37	ThickAsThieves	NEW money
11:38	mircea_popescu	people understand all too well they do not wish to understand this if they wish to continue whatever it is they're doing.
11:38	mircea_popescu	so... no.
11:38	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 14500 @ 0.00011141 = 1.6154 BTC [+] {2}
11:39	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SFI] 180 @ 0.00082 = 0.1476 BTC [-] {3}
11:40	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1500 @ 0.00011142 = 0.1671 BTC [+]
11:44	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9600 @ 0.00092659 = 8.8953 BTC [-] {2}
11:47	ThickAsThieves	So am I correct in stating the USG reports there exists approx $11,000,000,000,000?
11:47	ThickAsThieves	http://www.federalreserve.gov/releases/h6/current/default.htm
11:48	ThickAsThieves	which would be $500,000,000 new dollars in 2013?
11:49	ThickAsThieves	wait
11:49	ThickAsThieves	$500,000,000,000
11:49	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 27060 @ 0.00093135 = 25.2023 BTC [+] {2}
11:51	chetty	What dollars? They are just 1's&0's in computers somewhere - oh wait thats btc, oh wait ..
11:52	ThickAsThieves	i'm just trying to understand the money supply better
11:52	ThickAsThieves	not which of it is paper
11:52	KRS-	i think i'm going to change careers..i want to become a rapper.
11:53	ThickAsThieves	have you ever rapped before?
11:53	KRS-	what are my chances
11:53	KRS-	no
11:53	KRS-	but i like rap
11:53	ThickAsThieves	lol
11:53	ThickAsThieves	do you like pizza?
11:53	KRS-	thats how some people are these days with I.T.
11:53	ThickAsThieves	maybe you should become one of those
11:53	KRS-	ikr
11:53	KRS-	"oh i can click shit and run the wizard" "I is a computer expert"
11:54	ThickAsThieves	Windows Exper
11:54	ThickAsThieves	t
11:54	KRS-	dime a dozen
11:54	ThickAsThieves	depends where you are
11:54	ThickAsThieves	like if you work in a retirement home
11:54	ThickAsThieves	WIndows Experts are pretty useful
11:55	ThickAsThieves	or a numkber of small nonprofits
11:55	KRS-	worked at this one company where upper IT management thought they were all hot shit like that but had no idea of the underlying concepts
11:55	KRS-	then went running to the dev's for support
11:56	KRS-	and took credit for the effiencies, increased sales and gains
11:56	ThickAsThieves	I had to give this one adult day health care place all new staff emails twice in two years because staff turnover and "but they wanna use their Yahoo"
11:56	KRS-	hah
11:57	KRS-	the best was a nonprofit i consulted for..the 68 yo CFO was telling me how to do my job..needless to say i didnt service them past the initial 2-3 visits.
11:58	ThickAsThieves	small business web hosting mostly consists of "I lost my iPhone can you get my email back the new one?" and "Why are erection pill ads on my home page?"
11:58	ThickAsThieves	old people really dont trust IT people at all
11:58	KRS-	haha ya or the formatting isnt quite right on my spreadsheet or word document
11:59	ThickAsThieves	probly from being burned by all the expert nephews and windows experts
11:59	KRS-	ya i guess i cant blame them..much incompetence out there.
12:00	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] [PAID] 0.50889948 BTC to 444 shares, 114617 satoshi per share
12:00	KRS-	other SMB's have been great, long time clients, low workload, worked 2-4 days a week on average and made great money..thinking about going that route again, i just hate selling myself..maybe i can get a marketing company to do that.
12:00	ThickAsThieves	a ha "There was approximately $1.23 trillion in circulation as of January 29, 2014, of which $1.18 trillion was in Federal Reserve notes."
12:01	KRS-	ouch
12:01	ThickAsThieves	http://www.federalreserve.gov/faqs/currency_12773.htm
12:01	ThickAsThieves	i cant sort how these numbers add up though
12:01	KRS-	see the news lately, DOW and other markets are looking flaky
12:01	KRS-	most US currnecy overseas
12:03	ThickAsThieves	like, how doe sthe first report show $11t, the second say 1.23t, and the debt clock say $17.st
12:03	KRS-	smoke and mirrors dude
12:03	ThickAsThieves	nah there has to be some sort of path through the math
12:03	ThickAsThieves	made up or not
12:03	KRS-	..was going to say if you want to trust those numbers.
12:04	ThickAsThieves	it is has to add up somewhere right?
12:04	KRS-	the government has been pulling back i hear
12:04	ThickAsThieves	maybe the simple answer is to just use the largest one
12:04	KRS-	ThickAsThieves: it does. Its carefully scrutinized, but where you go for the numbers are for those in the know.
12:04	KRS-	Pretty sure.
12:04	KRS-	Like labor statistics..published vs unpublished.
12:05	ThickAsThieves	if we owe $17.25t then that is probly the minimum amount of dollars, no?
12:05	ThickAsThieves	printed or not
12:05	KRS-	you would think
12:05	KRS-	Either way its a bad situation.
12:06	ThickAsThieves	i'm looking for an easy way to educate my circles on dollar inflation and dilution
12:06	KRS-	is that of benefit to you?
12:06	ThickAsThieves	i want them to undestand they do not have $X in the bank
12:06	KRS-	oh for proper investment?
12:06	ThickAsThieves	and that tomorrow, they will have less $ in the bank whether they withdraw or not
12:06	KRS-	I'm sure serious investors already know this.
12:06	KRS-	I'm sure most investors do.
12:06	ThickAsThieves	this is for friends and family
12:07	KRS-	ah ..another story.
12:07	KRS-	Good
12:07	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SFI] 2000 @ 0.00082 = 1.64 BTC [-] {2}
12:07	ThickAsThieves	its total ignirance out there man
12:07	ThickAsThieves	ignorance
12:07	KRS-	You aint kidding...got similar family like that thinking their 401k's are fine and all.
12:07	KRS-	They wont even listen to me.
12:07	ThickAsThieves	or at least what mp says total ignore-ance
12:08	mircea_popescu	yeah i was gonna say, glwt but it ain't happening/
12:08	mircea_popescu	that's why family is best organised as slaves in a harem
12:08	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 11131 @ 0.00011144 = 1.2404 BTC [+] {2}
12:08	mircea_popescu	you tell them what to do and are done with it.
12:08	mircea_popescu	with ppl as they are, even picking a fucking place to eat takes tw odays.
12:09	mircea_popescu	by the time you explain the situation to them you could have made more money than their aggregate savings by just... working.
12:09	mircea_popescu	like, doing something useful. which explaining stuff to idiots rarely is.
12:09	KRS-	heh
12:09	ThickAsThieves	you are so right about picking place to eat!
12:09	KRS-	so true man
12:09	ThickAsThieves	when we travel,
12:09	KRS-	give people a choice and it is teh fucks up everything
12:09	mircea_popescu	dude, you just yell "on your knees" and everyone is on their knees.
12:09	ThickAsThieves	I pre-choose every mean place before we even get to the airport
12:09	mircea_popescu	makes things so fucking easy.
12:10	ThickAsThieves	meal*
12:10	KRS-	people actually want to be told imo
12:10	chetty	It does not have to add up. THey don't think the masses can do math so they bother with things like that
12:10	ThickAsThieves	so you guys are saying there really is no answer?
12:11	mircea_popescu	chetty actually, banks came up with clown&baloon patterns for the back of cheques, i wonder how long till your actual bank statment is in pictures
12:11	ThickAsThieves	that there are vastly conflicting ways to count the money?
12:11	mircea_popescu	numbers being racist and all.
12:11	nubbins`	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2014#474726
12:11	nubbins`	^ sounds like it doesn't snow where that guy lives
12:11	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves there are in fact vastly different ways to ACCOUNT.
12:11	mircea_popescu	"Those assets that he had, they were in fact somehow valued. On one approach to valuation, they came out X. On another approach to valuation, they came out Y. There’s little convergence between the series of Xs and Ys."
12:11	lippoper	I want ozbot back
12:12	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 1300 @ 0.00011529 = 0.1499 BTC [+] {6}
12:12	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12819 @ 0.00093299 = 11.96 BTC [+]
12:12	ThickAsThieves	sure, but how do i sort out what a dollar is worth, ignoring outside inflations
12:12	mircea_popescu	you don't.
12:12	chetty	Some congress critter said they need to do weather reports in eubonics, thats why so many in NO didn't leave, they didn't understand.
12:12	mircea_popescu	how do you sort out what the word "it" means, ignoring outside inflations ?
12:13	ThickAsThieves	by striclty looking at money creation changes
12:13	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 2000 @ 0.00011907 = 0.2381 BTC [+] {9}
12:13	mircea_popescu	the reason pure mercantilist views are derided by ws today is sound tho.
12:13	mircea_popescu	you're trying to live in 1700, which doesn't work.
12:14	ThickAsThieves	i want to be be able to form a sentence like "If we print the same amount of money in 2014 as 2013, your $1 with be worth .82"
12:14	mircea_popescu	the us dollar is a negotiable credit instrument, like any paper. it does not have this "fixed" value you wish toassign it.
12:14	mircea_popescu	yes, but you can't form that stance.
12:14	mircea_popescu	and if you could, i could write a bot to exploit your currency and make me rich
12:14	mircea_popescu	rendering your statement false in the process.
12:15	mircea_popescu	(this, incidentally, is largely what soros vs bank of england was all about)
12:15	ThickAsThieves	that implies things happen to icrease dollar value no?
12:15	mircea_popescu	that implies that the exchange value of a negotiable instrument is only known after the negotiation completes.
12:15	nubbins`	^
12:16	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2012/the-problem-of-too-much-money/
12:16	nubbins`	you don't know what the value of your white tamagotchi is until some sucker buys it
12:16	mircea_popescu	"The problem inflationary currency bestows upon capital allocators is insolvable. They are given money of no certain value (pretty much the only sure thing about the paper currency is that it is, literally, burning in your hands, it ticks away like a bomb, it blows in the wind like dust - all this while you’re holding it) and have to do something with it. They always, always, always, absolutely always have more than
12:16	mircea_popescu	is in fact needed."
12:16	nubbins`	and even then, that only settles the question of what YOUR white tama was worth.
12:16	mircea_popescu	that "no certain value" is in there for a reason.
12:16	nubbins`	to one guy, even.
12:17	ThickAsThieves	ugh
12:17	ThickAsThieves	I get it, I do, but this is not easy to communicate to normals
12:18	mircea_popescu	myeah.
12:18	mircea_popescu	which is why normals can't make exchanges, or ipos, or etc.
12:18	mircea_popescu	nor can they understand WHY is it that you won't let them.
12:18	mircea_popescu	obviously, it's because scam and racist.
12:19	ThickAsThieves	why the fuck is the phenomenon that uneducated think complicated info is untrustworthy
12:19	mircea_popescu	if you think about it, that's the stable game-theoretic solution.
12:19	ThickAsThieves	like if i rant on all this to my mom, she'll think i'm a conspiracy theorist
12:20	mircea_popescu	what should your server do with requests it doesn't comprehend ? a. drop them b. anything else.
12:20	ThickAsThieves	well your server is a slave right
12:20	ThickAsThieves	it does what you tell it to
12:20	mircea_popescu	well it'd better not be enough of a whore to do anything any user tells it.
12:20	mircea_popescu	ideally it's your slave, as you have the ssh
12:20	nubbins`	are you asking why people don't trust things they don't understand? :(
12:20	ThickAsThieves	the risk with slaves!
12:21	ThickAsThieves	well i dont necessarily want to conversate about that aspect nubbins
12:21	asciilifeform	'Postel's Law,' that historic mistake.
		↖
12:21	mircea_popescu	iirc jurov was trying some experiments with giving anon users root on the box or something
12:21	nubbins`	not much to converse about :D
12:21	nubbins`	or conversate, for that matter ;p
12:22	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform actually postel's is great for the web. it's just that the web is NOT great for "anything"
12:22	mircea_popescu	and that's what the fucktarded altchainers have been doing to the internet, try to make everything out of web
12:23	mircea_popescu	just like some insane dood at your favourite eatery, where you once had some marzipan and like it.
12:23	mircea_popescu	next time you visit it's all like "yo dawg! i hear yu like marzipan so now I made everything out of marzipan!
12:23	mircea_popescu	like... the steak. the milk. YOUR CHAIR"
12:23	asciilifeform	mircea_popescu: afaik, postel's law came out of electronics, where you want to emit clear 'high' or 'low' voltage but do something other than choke & die if you're given a weird glitch (something in between)
12:24	mircea_popescu	make everything out of web, make everything out of blockchains, make everything out of etc.
12:24	ThickAsThieves	they in their own type of Kink High, let them play!
12:24	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform also a web-ish sort of situation.
12:25	asciilifeform	exactly. we had 'Muller's gate' in the '50s, with 'ready' signals. but nobody uses.
12:26	mircea_popescu	basically, <KRS-> has it : people actually want to be told
12:29	nubbins`	ugh, i find myself in the unenviable position of having funds in my paypal account that i wish to convert to btc
12:29	nubbins`	this has literally never happened before D:
12:29	ThickAsThieves	people want to be told > thus rely on trust > thus capitalism becomes great liar
12:30	mircea_popescu	nah, a model where 90% of the population trusts 10% in chunks of ~10 individuals, and then in turn and hten in turn
12:30	mircea_popescu	is pretty much the most stable thing in nature.
12:30	mircea_popescu	you need about a dozen or so tiers and you're golden.
12:31	mircea_popescu	the problem we have now is with the nationalist state of napoleon (and the us which is really just a pale copy) having successfully attacked this natural wot
12:31	mircea_popescu	with the result of 99.99999% trusting 0.00001%
12:31	mircea_popescu	with just one tier you're fucked.
12:31	ThickAsThieves	is it even possible to prevent?
12:31	mircea_popescu	it's a self-limiting condition.
12:32	mircea_popescu	and teh time's tick tock.
12:33	ThickAsThieves	i mean in general, is a wot's compromise inevitable
12:33	mircea_popescu	my read of history shows it is, yes.
12:33	mircea_popescu	game theory indicates it is, too
12:33	mircea_popescu	the nation model only emerges in situations where "the right thing" is plainly obvious
12:33	mircea_popescu	these are necessarily limited in time and exceptional.
12:34	ThickAsThieves	so the compromise of bitcoin is inevitable
12:34	mircea_popescu	how do you mean ?
12:34	ThickAsThieves	it is a wot, no?
12:34	ThickAsThieves	miners mining
12:35	ThickAsThieves	people trusting the ledger
12:35	nubbins`	ehh....
12:36	mircea_popescu	but look : ten people in boondocks, new jersey somewhere who heard of bitcoin are tier 1
12:36	mircea_popescu	they all know this guy down the street, and trust him cause he's cool
12:36	mircea_popescu	he's tier 2.
12:36	mircea_popescu	he knows of the wot, and keeps deals with some other people so he can buy/sell btc for his friends at home
12:36	mircea_popescu	there
12:36	ThickAsThieves	core devs core-developing ( i also shoulda have added )
12:36	mircea_popescu	's a guy that knows the mall and escrows for them
12:36	mircea_popescu	that guy is tier 3
12:36	mircea_popescu	these guys kind-of know each other
12:36	ThickAsThieves	but you are just making that all upo
12:36	ThickAsThieves	up
12:36	mircea_popescu	then one day mp wants to pay a girl in boondock, nj to wash his car with her tits
12:37	ThickAsThieves	i can make up tiers of compromise too
12:37	mircea_popescu	and the tier 3 guy goes "you know... you reall don't need to escrow mp
12:37	nubbins`	haha
12:37	nubbins`	"statistically speaking..."
12:37	mircea_popescu	im not making it up in that this has in fact happened.
12:37	nubbins`	nod
12:37	ThickAsThieves	yes but it does not counter the inevitable
12:37	nubbins`	fun fact, the Salty Spitoon is a restaurant in the Spongebob Squarepants cartoon
12:38	mircea_popescu	what'd be the inevitable ThickAsThieves ?
12:38	twizt	ty nubbins`
12:38	ThickAsThieves	that trusts systems are compromised on some timescale
12:38	nubbins`	np
12:38	twizt	not knowing that really bothered me for the last few days ;)
12:38	nubbins`	:)
12:38	ThickAsThieves	and i dont mean the earth exploding
12:38	nubbins`	i'm here to enlighten and occasionally mislead
12:38	mircea_popescu	i jus' don't see how this follows.
12:38	mircea_popescu	go into detail.
12:38	ThickAsThieves	for example
12:39	ThickAsThieves	i buy a GPU in tier 1, i mine,
12:39	ThickAsThieves	I buy an Erupter farm in tier 2
12:39	mircea_popescu	um
12:39	nubbins`	you can't be in both tiers
12:39	mircea_popescu	this doesn't seem to have anything to do with what i was saying
12:39	nubbins`	^
12:39	ThickAsThieves	my point is that parties will seek to exp.loit the trust system
12:40	mircea_popescu	not really.
12:40	nubbins`	i think this went off the rails when tat stated that bitcoin is a web of trust
12:40	mircea_popescu	do your beer mates try to trick you into paying for their beer ?
12:40	ThickAsThieves	no
12:40	twizt	sometimes
12:40	mircea_popescu	right. parft of the definition of even beeing your mates
12:40	mircea_popescu	if they do you ditch them and get better ones.
12:40	mircea_popescu	now, suppose i need to evaluate 10mn beer drinkers.
12:40	mircea_popescu	can i do this ? how ?
12:40	twizt	or trick them into buying your weed
12:40	nubbins`	^
12:40	mircea_popescu	simple : i ask all the people who know people who pay beer tabs.
12:40	mircea_popescu	3 tiers.
12:40	nubbins`	twizt, nobody falls for that trick
12:41	mircea_popescu	this is how i find women, incidentally. i don't go into bars.
12:41	mircea_popescu	i just know girls that know girls that know girls.
12:41	twizt	its like barter
12:41	twizt	i got ur cheap beer
12:41	twizt	u get me expensive weed
12:41	twizt	(well atleast in USA)
12:41	KRS-	I saw two dancers french kissing yesterday it was nice.
12:41	ThickAsThieves	we are zoomed in to different parts of the 'wot'
12:41	mircea_popescu	seems so.
12:41	ThickAsThieves	i never said trust cant be develped
12:41	ThickAsThieves	nor that a wot cant be trusted
12:41	nubbins`	twizt, weed costs about the same to grow as tomatoes
12:41	nubbins`	plant-for-plant
12:41	ThickAsThieves	simply that over time, a trust system breaks down
12:42	twizt	wish i could grow yo
12:42	mircea_popescu	it's more than trust, tho. it's about control.
12:42	ThickAsThieves	and bitcoin is probly no different
12:42	nubbins`	consider that an ounce of weed should cost the same as a dozen hothouse tomatoes
12:42	twizt	my life would be 100x easier
12:42	mircea_popescu	what people in your wot say controls what you do.
12:42	mircea_popescu	which makes the wot a distributed political system
12:42	mircea_popescu	it's just that "distributed" does not mean one to many, as the nationalist representation of bork would have it.
12:42	nubbins`	a wot is not a static thing
12:42	ThickAsThieves	and what if we vote into power the wrong powers
12:42	nubbins`	i could trust someone fully today
12:42	mircea_popescu	it means few to one which groups in few to one which groups in few to one etc.
12:43	nubbins`	and then tomorrow he tries to strike my wife
12:43	nubbins`	now i don't trust him at all
12:43	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves if YOU vote the wrong guy YOU are screwed.
12:43	nubbins`	and any wot in which we both exist has changed
12:43	ThickAsThieves	suppose bitfury has 66% of mining right now
12:43	mircea_popescu	this is kind-of the gist of the old mpoe-pr post re personal responsibility
12:43	ThickAsThieves	just in their back pocket
12:43	mircea_popescu	"if all idiots vote in the wot like it is a nationalistic election, you will get a wot that works like your fucking country"
12:44	nubbins`	i rate +3 the users i'm most likely to enjoy drinking a beer with"
12:45	nubbins`	feel free to add the missing " or remove the dangling one
12:45	nubbins`	tautology either way
12:46	twizt	sounds like a martingale to me
12:47	ThickAsThieves	another thing I have trouble with is how we can easily point out the problems with inflationary money, but when we discuss the problems with deflationary we stop at "well hopefully it calms down"
12:47	twizt	some people can be trust worthy 99% of the time, and the 1% of time they get sketchy
12:47	twizt	can out weigh the 99% of times they were 'good'
12:47	mircea_popescu	we do?
12:47	ThickAsThieves	last time it was a topic at least
12:47	mircea_popescu	this is not on my list. quote!
12:48	ThickAsThieves	plz hold
12:50	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9349 @ 0.00092721 = 8.6685 BTC [-]
12:52	nubbins`	aha! paypal bucks sent, btc received
12:52	nubbins`	honestly thought it'd take longer
12:53	deadweasel	cool, now you can say you never rec'd and get your cash back! ;)
12:53	nubbins`	heheh
12:53	nubbins`	nah, this is a guy who i've traded casascius coins with before
12:54	deadweasel	glad he was trustworthy, twice!
12:54	ThickAsThieves	[18:10] <ThickAsThieves> we're kinda saying all spending of bitcoin is bad business, right?
12:54	ThickAsThieves	[18:10] <mike_c> yes
12:54	ThickAsThieves	[18:11] <mircea_popescu> we're saying that the quick increase in the btc rate puts responsible, competent ceos in the position where they forego fiat deployments
12:54	ThickAsThieves	[18:11] <mircea_popescu> this is a major problem for bitcoin atm.
12:54	ThickAsThieves	[18:11] <ThickAsThieves> atm, or forever?
12:54	ThickAsThieves	[18:11] <mircea_popescu> no argument. which is why it's a problem.
12:54	ThickAsThieves	[18:11] <mircea_popescu> ThickAsThieves hopefully it settles down.
12:54	nubbins`	me too
12:54	nubbins`	he sent first, even :0
12:54	deadweasel	whoa
12:54	nubbins`	ThickAsThieves, mircea_popescu: all spending of btc is not bad business.
12:54	mircea_popescu	but this is an interfacing problem, not a deflation problem
12:55	mircea_popescu	you'd have the same difficulties if you landed in zimbabwe with a trunk full of dollars :
12:55	ThickAsThieves	does the interfacing problem exist without deflation?
12:55	mircea_popescu	you can't "invest" in zimbabwe until their failrency settles down
12:55	ThickAsThieves	does deflation "settle"?>
12:55	mircea_popescu	there is no deflation caught in that discussion at all.
12:56	ThickAsThieves	what amount of settling is likely or required?
12:56	mircea_popescu	it's just the fiat bubble bursting.
12:56	ThickAsThieves	same result no?
12:56	ThickAsThieves	when fiat bubble is done, will we not continue to deflate?
12:56	mircea_popescu	in the sense jumping out of a plane and having a piano fall on you yield the same result.
12:57	mircea_popescu	it's just that parachutes do little to protect you from falling objects.
12:57	ThickAsThieves	more like jumping off the earth vs out of a plan
12:57	nubbins`	it behooves one wealthy in btc to delay purchases/spending for as long as possible
12:57	ThickAsThieves	youll die from both
12:57	mircea_popescu	when the fiat bubble is gone we will actually deflate, but the effects of THAT are not judgeable by this.
12:57	nubbins`	but that's distinct from never spending at all
12:57	mircea_popescu	besides, bitcoin is hugely inflationary.
12:57	ThickAsThieves	but you wont land jumping off the earthj
12:57	mircea_popescu	much more so that fiat CLAIMS to be
12:58	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2013/some-basic-discussion-of-bitcoin-macroeconomy/
12:58	mircea_popescu	see there, para I
13:00	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15390 @ 0.00093078 = 14.3247 BTC [+] {2}
13:03	ThickAsThieves	hmm
13:03	ThickAsThieves	do you believe the fiat bubble will actaully finish?
13:03	mircea_popescu	yeah.
13:03	ThickAsThieves	how long?
13:03	mircea_popescu	what am i, mafalda ?
13:03	ThickAsThieves	hehe
13:04	ThickAsThieves	well it seems like it drag out pretty far
13:04	mircea_popescu	hmm apparently this doesn't convert to english
13:04	mircea_popescu	anyway, mafalda was a late 1800s famous seer
13:05	ThickAsThieves	when i search i just get cartoons
13:05	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 432 @ 0.00293973 = 1.27 BTC [+] {11}
13:05	ThickAsThieves	i assumed she could tell the future
13:06	mircea_popescu	https://blogideologic.wordpress.com/2011/10/21/mafalda-in-cultura-populara-a-romanilor/
13:06	mircea_popescu	it's an actual historical person.
13:07	nubbins`	after skimming this article, i now understand
13:07	nubbins`	;p
13:07	ThickAsThieves	i guess this conversation nullifies another question i had
13:07	nubbins`	you guys don't have paragraph breaks in romanian?
13:08	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 4 @ 0.04979777 = 0.1992 BTC [+]
13:08	ThickAsThieves	during the recent NY panels, we do they only mention volatility, and never bitcoin's deflationary problems
13:08	ThickAsThieves	why
13:08	mircea_popescu	because they read trilema.
13:08	ThickAsThieves	which i guess i should reform to, why do they not worry about hoarding
13:08	ThickAsThieves	answer is, cuz there's nothing they can do about it
13:09	mircea_popescu	why do you think hoarding would be a problem ?
13:09	ThickAsThieves	i guess
13:09	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 129 @ 0.00295299 = 0.3809 BTC [+] {3}
13:09	ThickAsThieves	wouldnt extreme hoarding cause more volatility?\
13:09	mircea_popescu	let's do the following mental experiment.
13:10	mircea_popescu	suppose the original satoshi prototype only had 2.1mn total bitcoin, and original block reward was 5 btc.
13:10	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 90 @ 0.00295799 = 0.2662 BTC [+] {2}
13:10	mircea_popescu	what, if anything, do you think'd be different today ?
13:10	ThickAsThieves	core devs would add decimal places? :)
13:10	mircea_popescu	right.
13:11	mircea_popescu	now, imagine a different situation, in which 18.9 mn bitcoins have been hoarded.
13:11	mircea_popescu	why would things be different ?
13:11	nubbins`	s/hoarded/saved
13:11	mircea_popescu	strictly because those 18.9 mn coins COULD BE SPENT. but if they're spent... they're no longer hoarded.
13:11	ThickAsThieves	well it leaves potential for intense volatility
13:11	mircea_popescu	hoarding is self limiting. you either hoard or matter.
13:11	mircea_popescu	yes. it does.
13:12	mircea_popescu	guess what ? intense volatility hurts large holders most.
13:12	mircea_popescu	yet another point of elegant beauty typical of satoshi designs.
13:12	asciilifeform	that's sorta like saying that falling out of an airplane sans parachute isn't really so bad, i fell out of my bed as a boy once
13:12	mircea_popescu	definitely intelligent design at work here.
13:12	ThickAsThieves	heh
13:12	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform which part you mean ?
13:13	asciilifeform	traditional argument - if enough of the hoard were dumped, one could see a catastrophic stampede
13:13	mircea_popescu	sure.
13:13	mircea_popescu	but it is in fact the people hoarding that have least interest to see this happen.
13:13	ThickAsThieves	then hoarding is just building a bubble
13:13	mircea_popescu	the incentives are correctly alligned, which is the absolute most you can say of any system
13:14	asciilifeform	well that would depend on who's hoarding and why
13:14	mircea_popescu	notrly.
13:14	mircea_popescu	money perverts.
13:14	mircea_popescu	you can go into it thinking anything you wish
13:14	mircea_popescu	you'll come out of it thinking what it needs you to.
13:14	asciilifeform	'nsa satoshi' hypothesis
13:14	ThickAsThieves	or anarchist satoshi
13:14	mircea_popescu	this is me doing the ny jew hand gesture.
13:14	ThickAsThieves	hehe
13:16	ThickAsThieves	can't have trust as value without thinking everyone is out to get you!
13:16	mircea_popescu	and can't have sex as value without trying to hump vaguely calf-shaped electricity poles.
13:16	mircea_popescu	or perhaps...
13:18	mircea_popescu	anyway, take the nsa satoshi hypothesis. so the nsa spent 5mn making this thing, which we all embraced. as part of that expenditure it has premined 10mn BTC, which it kept, secretly. we don't know.
		↖
13:18	mircea_popescu	today at nsa headquarters, "sir, i would like to apply for permission to spend 10bn usd dollars in btc equivalent by dumpting our stash"
		↖ ↖
13:19	mircea_popescu	"we don't have 10bn in the budget. application denied."
13:19	jayk	hohoho
13:19	mircea_popescu	bitcoin, even should it have made by nsa, has actually taken it over.
13:19	mircea_popescu	win.
13:19	ThickAsThieves	and for Anarcho Satoshi?
13:19	jayk	JP morgn wants to take it over
13:20	jayk	with their own version
13:20	ThickAsThieves	maybe i should make Satoshi was an Anarchist shirts, everyone will buy them thinking it's for the opposite reason
13:20	mircea_popescu	there's no way to ensure it won't be tat taking it over, with his own version.
13:20	ThickAsThieves	well thats obv
13:21	mircea_popescu	that's the problem here. bitcoin selects for and promotes some very narrow, specified things.
13:21	mircea_popescu	and it doesn't negotiate with terrorists.
13:21	mircea_popescu	for real, this time.
13:21	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 2 @ 0.24310363 = 0.4862 BTC
13:21	mircea_popescu	(generally, the old adage goes, careful what you claim for yourself, you might live to meet it)
13:22	ThickAsThieves	we just say, careful what you wish for
13:22	ThickAsThieves	(you just might get it)
13:22	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.15000107 BTC [-]
13:23	ThickAsThieves	didnt Namworld buy that bitcoin shirt company?
13:23	mircea_popescu	ya but i like mine better.
13:23	ThickAsThieves	i wonder if he'll do it for real
13:23	jayk	before the banks accept bitcoin, they are trying to start their own version, like jp morgan is doing
13:23	ThickAsThieves	i just dont buy that
13:23	ThickAsThieves	no corp will make a coin anytime soon
13:24	ThickAsThieves	theyd have to be horribly out of touch
13:24	ThickAsThieves	like OracleCoin
13:24	ThickAsThieves	or such
13:24	ThickAsThieves	pretty much only Google or the USG could do it
13:25	Duffer1	you're talking about bankers here
13:25	Duffer1	horribly out of touch is their slogan
13:25	jurov	amazon alluded to it (maybe unintentionally)
13:25	mircea_popescu	a bank could od a very respectable coin.
13:25	ThickAsThieves	they arent so out of touch that they would sell something no one would buy
13:25	jurov	but that wouldn't be bad step
13:26	mircea_popescu	problem is, it'd need diametric's hr. which they dont have.
13:26	Duffer1	i fully expect jpmorgan or somesuch to ipo an alt coin then bet against it
13:26	ThickAsThieves	no way
13:26	mircea_popescu	lol
13:26	jayk	i expect someone like netflix to offer payments in bitcoin soon
13:26	ThickAsThieves	USG probly wont even let a bank make its own money
13:27	Duffer1	sure they could do a respectable coin
13:27	ThickAsThieves	netflix wont accept btc in 2014
13:27	jayk	publicity stunt
13:27	ThickAsThieves	nope
13:27	jayk	drive theit stock up
13:27	jayk	yes
13:27	ThickAsThieves	they have enough momentum without it
13:27	ThickAsThieves	they wouldnt wanna compromise
13:27	jayk	$$$
13:27	jayk	it works
13:28	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves it wouldn't have to be an us bank.
13:28	mircea_popescu	fun fact : at the time the amsterdam bank rose to prominence, the thing that propelled it was its marginality
13:28	ThickAsThieves	they likely learned their lesson about confusing their audience when they announced that new thing that never happened
13:28	ThickAsThieves	what was it
13:28	mircea_popescu	specifically, small countries had problems with their clipped/worn currency
13:28	mircea_popescu	in general, a small outlier could take over the entire world economy by doing something smart like this.
13:28	jayk	overstock has gone up $15 in 1year
13:28	jayk	they now accept bitcoin dont they
13:29	ThickAsThieves	lol
13:29	ThickAsThieves	that outlier would have to have some way to get trust and establish a blockchain
13:30	ThickAsThieves	like google putting its own into Android
13:30	mircea_popescu	no. like getting the ok of someone in the space with enough authortiy to ok it.
13:30	mircea_popescu	problem being, of course, the space is full of fakers, and otherwise insanely expensive.
13:31	ThickAsThieves	so what wot do they use?
13:31	mircea_popescu	one of those "pay through the nose or waste your money" sort of situations which institutions handle so poorly.
13:31	jayk	haha: http://www.reddit.com/r/pics/comments/1wt6mm/dont_broadcast_your_wifi_ssid_and_password_on/
13:32	jayk	superbowl wifi password broadcasted on national tv
13:32	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 23080 @ 0.00092721 = 21.4 BTC [-]
13:32	ThickAsThieves	oh yeah thats today huh
13:33	Duffer1	wow..
13:34	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.15 BTC [-]
13:36	ThickAsThieves	"Interesting fact: $1 million dollars weighs 10kg exactly"
13:36	ThickAsThieves	finally found a qay to quantify dollars!
13:36	ThickAsThieves	way*
13:36	jayk	i placed my first bitbet, mircea_popescu
13:36	mircea_popescu	lol i wonder what on
13:37	jayk	snowden
13:37	mircea_popescu	a
13:37	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 12428 @ 0.00092636 = 11.5128 BTC [-] {2}
13:42	nubbins`	huh, http://online.wsj.com/news/articles/SB10001424052702304626804579358943360702878
13:42	ThickAsThieves	dang
13:42	mircea_popescu	aww
13:43	Mats_cd03	1mil or $10,099
13:43	mircea_popescu	he was better in flawless.
13:43	mircea_popescu	wtf is capote.
13:46	ThickAsThieves	why do celebs do heroine anyway? they spent all the other indulgences?
13:46	benkay`	"We won't be issuing another series for a while, nor will we be making further attempts to support seemingly "worthy" or "credible" "financiers" for a while, mostly because we're running out of quotes."
13:46	mircea_popescu	waithat ?!
13:47	ThickAsThieves	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=76515.msg1311976#msg1311976
13:48	benkay`	old gold is all
13:48	ThickAsThieves	when will mpex buy Ukyo & Graet debt?
13:48	benkay`	quick on the trigger you are today, ThickAsThieves
13:48	mircea_popescu	lol 2012
13:49	mircea_popescu	can't believe that chick's been building the snark since two years ago, and yet last month's noobs still "ambush" her
13:49	jurov	http://www.theguardian.com/world/2014/feb/01/edward-snowden-intelligence-leak-nsa-contractor-extract
13:50	jurov	for anyone who did not follow it very closely
13:51	mircea_popescu	Feb 01 16:41:24 <ThickAsThieves>getting my hands on the source will be Altcoin's "2 weeks" << did you ?
13:52	ThickAsThieves	still waiting
13:52	benkay`	mircea_popescu: i don't see the hash options on your list of closed mpex assets
13:52	benkay`	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=77712.0 & http://trilema.com/2013/the-list-of-discontinued-assets-on-mpex/#identifier_1_48644
13:53	benkay`	drop the footnote link etc
13:53	mircea_popescu	becayuse theyre still on neh ?
13:53	nubbins`	TheTrueHOOHA is actually a better name than DPR
13:53	mircea_popescu	$vwap X.IDIFF.JUN
13:53	mpexbot	mircea_popescu: An error has occurred and has been logged. Please contact this bot's administrator for more information.
13:53	mircea_popescu	lol
13:53	mircea_popescu	well, they are.
13:54	blg	HOOHA sounds very sexual
13:54	nubbins`	http://static.guim.co.uk/sys-images/Guardian/Pix/pictures/2014/1/30/1391079438373/Young-snowden-2-008.jpg
13:54	nubbins`	looks very sexual too
13:54	benkay`	what, you tryna tell me an option to buy hashes is a future diff?
13:54	blg	nubbins`: lol
13:54	benkay`	(diff future i mean)
13:55	benkay`	i'm really just being a pedant here
13:55	jurov	benkay` id right, it was distinct from today's futures
13:55	jurov	*is
13:56	mircea_popescu	jesus yeah, there was a distinct set that died horribly. ie, with the mm taking it up the ass.
13:56	benkay`	just from the pedants perspective that asset series closed
13:56	mircea_popescu	see, you're adding value already.
13:57	mircea_popescu	now go make a post.
13:57	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9470 @ 0.0009272 = 8.7806 BTC [+]
13:57	benkay`	when did that series close?
13:57	mircea_popescu	i don't remember.
13:57	jurov	try archive.org
13:57	nubbins`	` is so trendy these days
13:58	mircea_popescu	(dude this is so cool, i'ma do a series of i don't remember / i don't recall and be just like a real banker nao!)
13:58	nubbins`	jurov wins, benkay, you're out
13:58	mircea_popescu	benkay seriously tho, im pretty sure it was in a mpoe report. prolly died summer 2013 ?
13:58	benkay	this is the point at which i decide to archive all mpoe reports
13:59	nubbins`	but if you do that, what are you gonna spend your credits on?
14:00	benkay	learning romanian duh
14:00	nubbins`	lel
14:01	nubbins`	makes about as much sense as learning spanish just to read cien años de soledad, i guess
14:01	````	doesn't copying content from trilema need consent written by a sharpie which is then put into the ass?
14:01	mircea_popescu	more sense than learning spanish to talk to the maid.
14:01	benkay	french is next on the docket
14:02	mircea_popescu	```` as long as he doesn't distribute it...
14:02	nubbins`	mircea_popescu, i actually met someone who was doing that once
14:02	nubbins`	(for the book, not the maid)
14:02	mircea_popescu	i met both
14:02	mircea_popescu	my mother learned greek to read kavafis
14:02	nubbins`	TBH even in english it's beautiful, beautiful prose
14:02	nubbins`	i can't even imagine what it's like in the original language
14:03	benkay	the answer is August 2012, for those who care.
14:03	benkay	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=64962.msg1152708#msg1152708
14:04	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5400 @ 0.00093231 = 5.0345 BTC [+]
14:05	mircea_popescu	so summer indeed. wrong year, but hey.
14:07	ThickAsThieves	me: "How is it 2pm already?""
14:07	ThickAsThieves	wife: "You are a furry mess."
14:09	mircea_popescu	now rant at her about high finance
14:09	mircea_popescu	as if that makes it ok "no but honey til!"
14:09	ThickAsThieves	"Yeah well your dollars are turning into dust!"
14:10	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 93 @ 0.00295799 = 0.2751 BTC [+] {2}
14:15	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [KCIM] 45 @ 0.003 = 0.135 BTC [+]
14:23	mircea_popescu	https://twitter.com/kevinrose/status/429668252810100737 << ThickAsThieves
14:24	mircea_popescu	basically bitcoin got attacked in 2013 by the most unlikely of sources : the dieing start-up circus.
		↖
14:24	mircea_popescu	most nobody even noticed, or cared. except for the finest tuned of watchdogs or w/e
14:27	benkay	attacked?
14:28	mircea_popescu	well yes.
14:28	mircea_popescu	"There are more transactions of the cryptocurrency than Bitcoin, although it is only worth a tiny fraction of Bitcoin."
14:28	mircea_popescu	http://www.sbs.com.au/news/blog/2014/01/29/blog-dogecoins-message-chinese-investor-wolong
14:28	mircea_popescu	it's quite clear if you do aggregate counting.
14:29	mircea_popescu	they are attacking bitcoin. perhaps in the manner an ant attacks a rhino, but nevertheless. as far as the ant is concerned, in its own system of representations, that's what's going on.
		↖
14:29	mircea_popescu	http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=31-01-2014#469653
14:30	benkay	entertaining and all but from the ants perspective how is what they're doing an attack?
14:30	mircea_popescu	ant will kill rhino, skin it, wear the skin as king of the jungle.
14:31	benkay	like 'i am startup and will rule all the buttcorns'?
14:31	mircea_popescu	because if you get more fuckwits to retweet your inane shit you will thus therefore be "bigger" and "more important" than people with fewer retweets.
14:31	mircea_popescu	it's web start-up brain rot, quite typical.
14:32	mircea_popescu	in principle, every circlejerk imagines itself "the only thing out there". like, the us thinks it's "the world". any us court thinks it has universal jurisdiction. any us politician thinks that his decisions matter universally.
14:32	mircea_popescu	the va circus, as hopelessly fucked as they are, imagine that "all entrepreneurship" is... well... them.
14:33	mircea_popescu	that they will be crushed by much larger things that exist independent of their knowledge or understanding is about as aliento them as mpex customers to jimmothey
14:33	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.15999999 BTC [+]
14:33	mircea_popescu	so basically what we have here, is "everyone" in the sense of "everyone that goes to tech conferences in SF and reads techcrunch religiously" figures they can take over this novel idea.
14:34	````	i can vaguely recall some very negative sentiment on ycombinator and else
14:34	mircea_popescu	;;google ycombinator jointly and severally
14:34	gribble	Ycombinator continues to suck, jointly and severally : Bitcoin - Reddit: <http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/19en4a/ycombinator_continues_to_suck_jointly_and/>; Series AA Stock Purchase Agreement - Y Combinator: <http://ycombinator.com/seriesaa/Series_AA_SPA.docx>; European reforms are not enough, joint liability needed: <http://nextbigfuture.com/2011/12/european-reforms- (1 more message)
14:34	````	then the silicon valley bank deal came (which ended nowhere)
14:34	mircea_popescu	there you go.
14:34	benkay	well sv bank can hardly be thought of as a high finance operation
14:34	benkay	they do payroll and what have you
14:35	mircea_popescu	anyway. an attack it is.
14:35	mircea_popescu	ironically, while the correct move may seem to be to support ltc to crush them back into the swamp,
14:35	mircea_popescu	the actual correct move is to simply support other alternatives to burn their underbase.
14:36	mircea_popescu	you want them to eat ltc's lunch to some degree, much like you want about 50 other groups to start their own, doge-food eating bitcoin killers.
14:36	mircea_popescu	so you know... ATC/ALT getting more hash than doge serves a good purpose in the end.
14:36	mircea_popescu	(funny how nobody seems to have noticed that, too :p)
14:37	ThickAsThieves	so what you're saying is Altcoin really is the first altcoin with a purpose
14:37	mircea_popescu	hehe. myeah.
14:37	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 3 @ 0.16 = 0.48 BTC [+]
14:37	````	woooo what a plot
14:37	jayk	a
14:38	jayk	:|
14:38	mircea_popescu	You see dear Internet, Juraj Variny was a simple country boy... you might say a cockeyed optimist, who got himself mixed up in the high stakes game of world diplomacy and international intrigue.
14:38	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.16 BTC [+]
14:40	jurov	better go back to milk goats
14:40	benkay	goat tits
14:40	mircea_popescu	you can never go back.
14:40	jayk	goat milk is will keep you alive for weeks
14:40	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.24310363 = 0.7293 BTC
14:40	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.165 BTC [+]
14:41	jayk	-is
14:41	jurov	only for weeks? afaik it's retty complete nutrition
14:41	jurov	*pretty :)
14:41	jayk	you might get sick of it and prefer to die
14:41	mircea_popescu	needs some slibowitz
14:41	jurov	^^
14:42	jayk	ovaltine
14:42	KRS-	Mmm plum brandy?
14:42	KRS-	Humans are the only animal who natually drink another animal's milk.
14:43	KRS-	Although cats enjoy milk from cows, its not like they would get it in the wild.
14:43	mircea_popescu	cats do too if they can get it.
14:43	jayk	my cat is afraid of ducks
14:43	jurov	no duck milk for her, then.
14:44	benkay	cats are filthy scavenging vermin
14:44	jayk	lol
14:44	benkay	undomesticated to boot
14:44	ThickAsThieves	blasphemy
14:44	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.174 BTC [+]
14:44	benkay	get thee hence
14:45	jurov	*#b-assets erupts into riots caused by unkind remark about cats*
14:46	benkay	listen i expect my dependents to honor my every desire and worship at my feet
14:46	benkay	women are hard enough to domesticate
14:46	benkay	cats are impossible
14:47	ThickAsThieves	for example?
14:47	mircea_popescu	srsly, cats aren't that bad.
14:47	mircea_popescu	much like women, they autodomesticate if you're cool.
14:47	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM100] 18 @ 0.00574444 = 0.1034 BTC [-] {2}
14:47	benkay	oh you
14:47	mircea_popescu	you may occasionally have to throw one out the window into traffic, but w/e
14:48	mircea_popescu	what's it cost, 200 bux tops.
14:48	ThickAsThieves	pretty much if you get a cat while its impressionable, make a good impression, it is a great pet
14:48	ThickAsThieves	sometimes you get crazy ones
14:48	chipug	same with women
14:48	mircea_popescu	pretty much.
14:48	mircea_popescu	most mistreated cats will actually also come to sanity
14:49	ThickAsThieves	maybe, but those are also void of personality
14:49	mircea_popescu	they're not that stupid to not be able to tell the difference, just need some time to decompress
14:49	mircea_popescu	nah, not rly.
14:49	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.175 BTC [+]
14:50	benkay	perhaps its that i live in america where men don't know how to handle women or cats and so all cats i encounter are of the 'let me out now let me in now let me piss on your rug' variety
14:50	ThickAsThieves	the only cat I have problems with is the wanna-be alpha that keeps attacking the smallest female
14:50	punkman	cats are assholes
14:51	mircea_popescu	benkay so take a kitten and raise it separately.
14:51	mircea_popescu	pankkake http://trilema.com/2014/your-cookies-are-borkt-seriously/#comment-97890
14:51	ThickAsThieves	well thats your first problem benkay
14:51	ThickAsThieves	dont let cats outside
14:51	benkay	i am not maintaining a shitbox.
14:52	ThickAsThieves	get a maid
14:52	benkay	i am not paying someone to maintain a shitbox in my residence.
14:52	ThickAsThieves	you cant both have time for the finer things AND do everything yourseldf
14:52	benkay	i am not having fucking absorbent chemically impregnated who knows the fuck what scattered all about my living space
14:53	benkay	finer things, in my case, are dogs.
14:53	ThickAsThieves	like those dont stink or need to go outside?
14:53	benkay	works with my personal proclivities marginally better
14:53	benkay	you know, like going outside
14:54	benkay	all living things stink
14:54	Bones	I'm a dog man myself, but benkay you still have a yard full of shit. Now what?
14:54	ThickAsThieves	all dead things stink too
14:54	benkay	i personally walk my dog
14:54	benkay	why on earth would i have a yard!?
14:54	benkay	or a house!?
14:54	benkay	sounds like a great deal of overhead.
14:55	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 11800 @ 0.00093239 = 11.0022 BTC [+] {2}
14:55	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/2014/smg-ianuarie-2014-statement/
14:55	Bones	So you would rather pick up shit than clear a shitbox. To each their own I suppose?
14:55	ThickAsThieves	lol, sounds like a joke
14:55	ThickAsThieves	I don't want a house, too much over head
14:55	benkay	Bones: did you miss the part where the shit is in your living space in one of those scenarios? or does that not matter to you?
14:55	mircea_popescu	he lives on a hilltop.
14:56	mircea_popescu	benkay i got news for you. the stuff that makes beer good ? it's shit, man. little craps taking a doodoo in your drink.
14:56	benkay	oh its chemistry o'clock nao
14:56	mircea_popescu	bread chiefly consists of other species' farts.
14:57	jurov	and fish piss into drinking water
14:57	ThickAsThieves	what is the proper daily dose of cat shit?
14:57	mircea_popescu	#bitcoin-assets grossout party ftw.
14:57	benkay	is this an elegant demonstration of the modern practice of saying things are other things cause words and derp?
14:57	mircea_popescu	we;re like preteen girlies over here.
14:58	Bones	lolpoop
14:58	benkay	look i farted - now you have my poo particles in your mouth
14:58	ThickAsThieves	benkay, we're just making you pay the price of hating on the world's most loved animal
14:58	benkay	what, women?
14:58	mircea_popescu	he hated on anteaters ?!
14:58	ThickAsThieves	...
14:59	ThickAsThieves	this is serious business ladies!
14:59	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.5500001 BTC [-]
14:59	mircea_popescu	ok Chickasschivas.
15:00	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.55 BTC [-]
15:01	mircea_popescu	http://trilema.com/wp-content/uploads/2012/07/mina-competenta.gif << speaking of kitty training
15:02	benkay	i like the little recoil and pouty face
15:05	benkay	goat hiding his tracks https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=82573.0
15:05	mircea_popescu	doh.
15:06	benkay	not terribly effectively though
15:08	mircea_popescu	the thing with goat is that he's pretty much azn
15:09	mircea_popescu	he does a superficial 1st take of anything and leaves it at that.
15:09	mircea_popescu	other than that he;s just persistent. pretty much his whole strat.
15:10	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 4 @ 0.24310363 = 0.9724 BTC
15:11	benkay	not a terribly bad strategy so long as he allocates correctly on his +ev options
15:11	mircea_popescu	it takes a particular sort of scum to actually apply it tho.
15:12	mircea_popescu	more adequate to whoring out anyway. i guess as an older guy he can't enjoy that where he is, so what's one to do.
15:14	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HMF] 4 @ 0.0288 = 0.1152 BTC [-]
15:19	ThickAsThieves	question, if i take the source from a different coingen package, is that not the same thing as what i need
15:19	ThickAsThieves	since we need to reverese engineer from genesis block anyway
15:19	benkay	aw man
15:20	benkay	the -assets altcoin doesn't have source in the wild. that's hilarious.
15:20	ThickAsThieves	well it was a whim
15:20	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves what is the problem there anyway
15:20	ThickAsThieves	my guess, it's the weekend
15:20	benkay	"a thing worth doing is worth doing well"
15:20	mircea_popescu	^
15:20	mircea_popescu	you never know when your whim coallesces into a schelling point.
15:21	ThickAsThieves	kill all the whimsy!
15:21	benkay	life is dead serious
15:21	benkay	be serious or be dead
15:21	mircea_popescu	this is why satoshi ran off
15:21	ThickAsThieves	heh
15:21	mircea_popescu	he couldn't cope with responsibilities of fatherhood.
15:21	mircea_popescu	deadbeatdadscoin
15:21	ThickAsThieves	smart man
15:22	mircea_popescu	^ think about it. the coin to pay all alinomy in. utterly worthless coin everyone loves
15:22	mircea_popescu	FOR THAT REASON
15:22	ThickAsThieves	it is interesting though, how much work it really takes these days to promote a coin
15:23	mircea_popescu	https://bitcointalk.org/index.php?topic=102333.msg4899791#msg4899791
15:24	mircea_popescu	i wonder if she just killed yet another thread or else we get epic butthurt
15:24	ThickAsThieves	but back to my orginal question
15:24	ThickAsThieves	if i get other coingen'd source
15:24	ThickAsThieves	can we work from it?
15:24	ThickAsThieves	i assume itd need to be a SHA256 coin
15:25	mircea_popescu	possibly. you'll need the original block details tho
15:25	mircea_popescu	which you should be able to have a miner dump
15:25	ThickAsThieves	pankakke mined it
15:25	mircea_popescu	then i have no doubt pankake can do by hand whatever's done automatically by coingen.
15:25	mircea_popescu	which... sucks for him.
15:25	ThickAsThieves	why?
15:25	pankkake	from what I see with bernankoin, all the details of the genesis block are in block 0 too
15:25	ThickAsThieves	i'll pay
15:26	mircea_popescu	why, cause it's work.
15:26	pankkake	it's annoying, lol
15:26	ThickAsThieves	so annoying you wouldnt do it?
15:26	mircea_popescu	pankkake you want to make a better coingen.io ?
		↖
15:26	pankkake	making that thing work was half my "development" time
15:26	mircea_popescu	with incorporated market (so all your new coins can be INSTA traded for al lothers ?)
15:26	mircea_popescu	that may actually be a revenu driver.
15:27	pankkake	maybe, not sure if it's worth the time
15:27	ThickAsThieves	insta pools, etc
15:27	mircea_popescu	hard to guess, maybe a few bitcoins a month.
15:27	pankkake	yes, it has to provide exchange
15:27	ThickAsThieves	likely what the new owners of coingenio plan to do...
15:27	mircea_popescu	you can definitely sink the coingen thing, from what my research shows bluematt sold it to an idiot.
15:28	mircea_popescu	and you can blow cryptsy right out of the water, because in is wholly manned by idiots
15:28	ThickAsThieves	mp if you put money into such i thing i will too
15:28	mircea_popescu	(check out their hiring page sometime for lulz)
15:29	ThickAsThieves	who was it that had the exchange
15:29	ThickAsThieves	maybe we start with that
15:29	mircea_popescu	Apocalyptic ?
15:29	ThickAsThieves	bt-x or something
15:29	ThickAsThieves	yeah
15:29	mircea_popescu	Apocalyptic baby, can you code ?
15:29	mircea_popescu	the beauty of #bitcoin-assets. businesses just fall in your lap all the time
15:30	mircea_popescu	to the degree one can't humanly cope.
15:30	pankkake	yeah :|
15:30	mircea_popescu	and also, benkay, you doing anything other than blogging and fucking your cat these days ?
15:30	ThickAsThieves	lol
15:30	mircea_popescu	cause a CLOJURE driven altcoin maker + exchange would be so fucking cool
15:30	benkay	dealing with the ungodly long enterprise sales cycle is all
15:30	benkay	oh god stop
15:30	mircea_popescu	nosrsly.
15:31	mircea_popescu	read the log
15:31	benkay	oh i have
15:31	benkay	let's do it in clojure you guys
15:31	benkay	someone knock together a reasonable ownership structure
15:32	pankkake	altcoin creator + exchange + seed nodes + pool
15:32	pankkake	set up an api for middlecoin
15:32	mircea_popescu	benkay you just put in all the work, then we list x% on mpex and people can invest.
15:32	mircea_popescu	let the market sort out the ownership structure.
15:32	ThickAsThieves	later we partner with fiverr for logo designers
15:33	benkay	i hate working for free
15:33	blg	99designs is good too
15:33	benkay	HATE
15:33	ThickAsThieves	he maybe we need to make a bitcoin fiverr too
15:33	mircea_popescu	a that's a point.
15:33	mircea_popescu	well, how much do you want to be paid to altcoin creator + exchange + seed nodes + pool ?
15:33	pankkake	altcoin singularity
15:33	blg	1000 btc
15:34	benkay	that's a great big fuck off pile of work
15:34	benkay	;;calc 1000*800
15:34	gribble	800000
15:35	mircea_popescu	blg what do you think this is, testnet btc ?
15:35	blg	15:33 < mircea_popescu> well, how much do you want to be paid to altcoin creator + exchange + seed nodes + pool ?
15:35	blg	i was answering that question
15:35	ThickAsThieves	he was too
15:35	blg	then i dont get the reference
15:35	blg	sorry
15:35	ThickAsThieves	he's saying will you be paid in monopoly btc?
15:36	blg	oh lol
15:36	ThickAsThieves	cmon it really cant cost $1m to make such thing
15:36	blg	i have no problems turning monopoly in to real
15:36	ThickAsThieves	just buy the existing pieces
15:36	ThickAsThieves	:)
15:36	blg	well you have to buy a good programmer for the alt coin
15:37	benkay	ahaha
15:37	benkay	ho
15:37	pankkake	lol
15:37	ThickAsThieves	blg you misunderstand
15:37	benkay	tee hee
15:37	blg	i didnt read the scrollback at all once again i apologize
15:37	pankkake	the cost would be mostly having to run each coin daemon/pool
15:38	pankkake	otherwise, everything is automated
15:38	pankkake	well I don't know how to automate the windows build
15:38	benkay	yeah we skip windows build
15:38	mircea_popescu	automate the windows build IN CLOJURE
15:38	benkay	no.
15:38	mircea_popescu	come on, if this isn't sexy i dunno what is.
15:38	pankkake	no people are mad if there is no windows
15:38	benkay	really?
15:38	mircea_popescu	must has windows. this is altscams here.
15:38	mircea_popescu	nobody even knows what linux is in that subforum
15:39	pankkake	yes. first posts of bernankoin :(
15:39	Duffer1	the world isn't ready for MP coin ^.^
15:39	ThickAsThieves	help us centralize decentralization
15:39	Duffer1	still rely on windows deployment for mass adoption
15:39	mircea_popescu	coelho has warped ThickAsThieves' brain to the degree i don't know when he's paraquoting anymore.
15:39	benkay	windows over os x?
15:39	mircea_popescu	you kidding ?
15:40	mircea_popescu	you can't buy osx ready systems on food stamps.
15:40	benkay	no i have no idea about altcoin mkt
15:40	benkay	oh i see welfarecoin
15:40	benkay	(s)
15:41	pankkake	what's next, KentuckyFriedCoin?
15:41	ThickAsThieves	maybe with contract with USG for UScoin
15:41	ThickAsThieves	we
15:41	benkay	okay so concerns
15:41	benkay	i don't want to run this
15:42	lippoper	we should make a pizzacoin
15:42	benkay	more than happy to set up servers etc but it must be actually run by not me
15:43	ThickAsThieves	well it should run wherever whomever knows best thinks it should
15:43	benkay	location is another concern i want delegated to capitalizers of operation
15:43	mircea_popescu	what's "location" ?
15:43	ThickAsThieves	of servers
15:43	benkay	well there's an altcoin market involved right?
15:44	mircea_popescu	if he doesn't run it how exactly could he establish location
15:44	mircea_popescu	benkay altcoin-to-coin stricjtly.
15:44	mircea_popescu	we don't encourage the use of scamfiat.
15:44	benkay	ofc
15:44	benkay	so needs dedi
15:44	mircea_popescu	definitely.
15:44	blg	mircea_popescu: i'm PM'ing you if that's ok
15:44	mircea_popescu	you'll be herp-ddos'd all the time too. needs a decent dedi.
15:45	mircea_popescu	go ahead
15:45	benkay	colo with mpex?
15:45	mircea_popescu	then again this could easily live in the cloud.
15:45	mircea_popescu	prolly better that way as you'll have inelastic loads lal the time
15:46	benkay	no way are you suggesting putting wallets on virtual instances
15:46	mircea_popescu	why not /
15:46	jurov	benkay: no way you are suggesting putting wallets on frontend webserver
15:46	mircea_popescu	^
15:46	benkay	right
15:47	benkay	oh well sure web heads are virtualized
15:47	mircea_popescu	so they'r evirtual. what of it ? so are you. backup well, be happy.
15:47	jurov	and amazon does offer persistent storage since 2 years ago or so
15:48	benkay	talking about different things here
15:48	mircea_popescu	jurov you wanna host this ?
15:48	benkay	i'm talking about linode-style virtualization compromises of wallets
15:48	mircea_popescu	benkay no because they can't read CLOJURE
15:49	jurov	and i'm asking why does one need zero-latency wallet access
15:49	benkay	one doesn't, jurov
15:49	jurov	it can happily live 50ms away
15:49	benkay	mp stoppit
15:49	mircea_popescu	what, are you trying to put a CLOJURE on my expression ?
15:49	benkay	ermergerhd
15:49	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [KCIM] 67 @ 0.003 = 0.201 BTC [+]
15:49	mircea_popescu	lmao
15:50	benkay	playing my biases so obviously just puts my hackles up
15:50	mircea_popescu	no, this is a legitimate business angle.
15:50	mircea_popescu	we'll just os the entire thing.
15:50	mircea_popescu	get a buncha fucktarded kids try to learn clojure to make their own market thing.
15:50	mircea_popescu	epic.
15:51	benkay	well, it's just lisp so they shouldn't have too hard of a time
15:51	mircea_popescu	so you think.
15:51	mircea_popescu	windows lips compiler ?
15:51	benkay	agqreiuhglerjbgaksdljbfsd
15:51	mircea_popescu	preferably as a python module ?
15:51	asciilifeform	obligatory turd! http://www.loper-os.org/?p=42
15:51	mircea_popescu	can you compile lisp in python run on linux via cygwin ?
15:51	asciilifeform	(how many people keep a flame war strong for ~5 yrs)
15:51	mircea_popescu	(provided of course you use ALL CAPS in the code)
15:52	benkay	mircea_popescu: http://docs.hylang.org/en/latest/
15:52	jurov	only with javascript and node emulation layer
15:52	mircea_popescu	jurov you mean they could get this in phpmyadmin ?
15:52	asciilifeform	write it in INTERCAL.
15:52	mircea_popescu	cause that'd help, they know phpmyadmin
15:52	jurov	implemented in haskell
15:53	mircea_popescu	but all the fun aside, srsly, a foss clojure implementation of this would actually be a great thing.
15:53	benkay	so: dev priorities then
15:53	Namworld	What the heck is this you are all talking about? Some retarted process that equals job security because you're then the only one able to update and maintain the business apps and software?
15:54	benkay	coingen, exchange, poolgen?
15:54	mircea_popescu	Namworld im trying to give the kid a breadloaf and he;'s trying to price himself out of it.
15:54	mircea_popescu	like all business ever.
15:54	benkay	exchange, coingen, poolgen?
15:54	mircea_popescu	benkay all 4 are needed out of the gate.
15:55	mircea_popescu	anyway, from what i read of lisp it is very productive and should be easy if you know what you're doing so like 500 lines of code.
15:55	benkay	what's number 4?
15:55	mircea_popescu	seeds
15:55	Jere_Jones	lol
15:55	benkay	ah seeds
15:55	Jere_Jones	"Just a couple of if statements"
15:56	mircea_popescu	Jere_Jones i know bunches of ppl who freelance, right ? "plz build me a better brain. should be easy if you know what you're doing'. 90% of all projects.
15:56	asciilifeform	intercal, i tell ya. what other language has a 'come from' statement.
15:56	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform basic read backwards ?
15:57	Jere_Jones	mircea_popescu: I'm in process of writting an exchange and the devil is in the details. Anyway, that was a joke from a manager that I used to have where everything was simple and just needed a "couple of if statements".
15:58	KRS-	Oh cool, another coin.
15:58	KRS-	http://canonizer.com/topic.asp/150/6
15:58	mircea_popescu	another coin, another dolla.
15:59	KRS-	Other currencies, like Bitcoin, use dumb hard coded ‘mining’ processes that produces coins at a fixed rate that can’t change.
15:59	pankkake	oh god another DAC. where is the code, how is it supposed to work, stfu
15:59	mircea_popescu	ahahaha
15:59	ThickAsThieves	the longer we take to get to the altcoin singularity, the less bitcoins we can make off it
16:00	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 2425 @ 0.00011977 = 0.2904 BTC [+]
16:00	jurov	all this ruckus.. just use some mature language supported by IDE with proper visual debugger
16:00	mircea_popescu	and meanwhile, i invite you all to a sing-along!
16:00	mircea_popescu	http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UY92AE1Aj-U
16:00	jurov	does clojure has it?
16:00	KRS-	This is really odd.
16:00	mircea_popescu	yes actually
16:00	jurov	php does not to this day (except some commercial ones)
16:00	pankkake	IDEs? visual debuggers? real men don't use that
16:00	jayk	mircea_popescu: how many companies do you have active
16:00	jurov	we are not talking about real men
16:01	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 5000 @ 0.00011978 = 0.5989 BTC [+]
16:01	pankkake	next you're going to tell me you use a MOUSE
16:01	mircea_popescu	jayk a number thereof. i need an accountant for an exact count. why ?
16:01	jayk	curious i know of mpex and bitbet
16:01	mircea_popescu	a public btc corps, 4
16:01	KRS-	ThickAsThieves can you describe the altcoin singularity? I'm not sure what to make of all this coin sillyness.
16:01	jayk	oic
16:01	jurov	pankkake you use coinbr in lynx?
16:01	jayk	i signed up for mpex i will study it later
16:01	pankkake	I use pentadactyl
16:01	mircea_popescu	not any rush
16:01	ThickAsThieves	i dont think i wanna subject this channel to me describing it
16:02	KRS-	link?
16:02	benkay	jurov: it's called emacs
16:02	mircea_popescu	fuck i lost my drink
16:02	mircea_popescu	what is this world coming to.
16:02	jayk	oh
16:02	jayk	i dont drink
16:02	mircea_popescu	well now neither do i.
16:02	jayk	hah
16:02	jayk	superbowl time
16:02	jayk	bbl
16:02	pankkake	altcoin singularity = you only need to input parameters, exchange, pool comes online, middlecoin mines it and sells it
16:03	mircea_popescu	and sends you a report of how much profit it made.
16:03	mircea_popescu	and an animated gif of the champagne.
16:03	mircea_popescu	it's all very virtual.
16:03	benkay	has anyone here built an altcoin from source?
16:03	jurov	benkay i'm visual person and do bes with actual shapes, not just screenful of text
16:03	KRS-	an easier way to get BTC because of the inflated value?
16:03	jayk	benkay: i have a link for you
16:03	jayk	if you want to
16:03	mircea_popescu	benkay iirc pankkake has.
16:04	jayk	coingen.io
16:04	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 2425 @ 0.000119 = 0.2886 BTC [-]
16:04	jayk	or there is a free verison but it might give yoau headache
16:04	mircea_popescu	omg ppls read the log.
16:04	benkay	free version of coingen?
16:04	benkay	can't say as i know what you're going on about.
16:04	jayk	i think he charges .05?
16:04	jayk	oh ok nvm
16:04	benkay	go watch your sportsball.
16:05	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 22778 @ 0.00093295 = 21.2507 BTC [+] {2}
16:05	jayk	http://coingen.bluematt.me/build/f6ae0f64.zip
16:05	benkay	asciilifeform: it's a turd, but it ain't java.
16:05	ThickAsThieves	;;ud singularity
16:06	gribble	http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=singularity | singularity. A point in time at which, theoretically, technological progress accelerates exponentially, such that nothing taking place follwing said point can be ...
16:06	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 3022 @ 0.00093379 = 2.8219 BTC [+]
16:06	ThickAsThieves	predicted
16:06	mircea_popescu	jayk http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2014#475503 KRS- http://log.bitcoin-assets.com/?date=02-02-2014#475319
16:07	ThickAsThieves	tonight, we dine on lunch!
16:07	KRS-	Thanks mircea_popescu
16:08	jayk	oh
16:08	benkay	going afk for a bit gents
16:09	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 6 @ 0.099 = 0.594 BTC [+]
16:09	jayk	you dont like that
16:09	jayk	guy
16:09	benkay	also mircea_popescu save me from myself and help me not price myself out
16:10	ThickAsThieves	thats easy
16:10	ThickAsThieves	just say what it really costs
16:10	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.1185 = 0.237 BTC [+]
16:10	benkay	requires knowing how long it really takes
16:10	ThickAsThieves	or estimation thereof
16:11	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 2 @ 0.24310363 = 0.4862 BTC
16:11	nubbins`	^
16:12	pankkake	I seems like an awful lot
16:12	pankkake	many different things
16:12	benkay	such moving parts
16:12	ThickAsThieves	it's a whole business really
16:12	ThickAsThieves	not just a dev project
16:13	benkay	's why i keep saying stop saying clojure to mp
16:13	mircea_popescu	it is a lot of work, yes. that's part of why it's worth doing, it always pays to sink your teeth in and do a fundamental bit well than try and chew a little off the edges.
16:13	ThickAsThieves	needs ongoing work too
16:13	benkay	how is the relationship with kakobrekla set up for ongoing work on bitbet?
16:13	pankkake	writing the exchange can be fun. the rest… eh
16:14	mircea_popescu	he got half the equity.
16:14	benkay	so he's incentivized to ship more to improve his profits
16:14	mircea_popescu	he's incentivised to have the thing running smoothly., which it has been.
16:14	benkay	i actually think setting up build servers would be fun
16:15	mircea_popescu	and that too was a lot of work, even if not necessarily obvious immediately.
16:16	benkay	uptime's a thing, yes
16:16	benkay	back in a few
16:20	turbo_ac100	Weren't all No bets on 'BitBet haxxed in 2013' supposed to be refunded and not paid out?
16:20	mircea_popescu	turbo_ac100 yeah.
16:20	dub	uptime is 13 years, 31 weeks, 3 days, 20 hours, 29 minutes
16:20	mircea_popescu	dub your c0k ?
16:20	jayk	did kakobrekla make the appl mistake?
16:21	turbo_ac100	But the were paid. Gift from kakobrekla I suppose. Thanks.
16:21	mircea_popescu	dub but srsly, you wanna host things ?
16:21	dub	fuck no
16:21	nubbins`	heh
16:22	mircea_popescu	turbo_ac100 make sure to make a thread about how bitbet's been scamming users tho.
16:22	dub	I just draw pictures, actual work is for monkeys
16:22	nubbins`	heh, ^
16:22	mircea_popescu	the paradox of honestly : idiots fucking up will amply report how it's all your fault. when you fuck up and you cover it... well... nobody really wants to mention it, cause w/e, kinda embarassing.
16:22	dub	what needs hosting?
16:23	mircea_popescu	the future of stupidity!
16:23	turbo_ac100	kakobrekla is scamming himself; not enough troll food in that one, sadly
16:23	mircea_popescu	turbo_ac100 exactly.
16:24	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 9 @ 0.24310363 = 2.1879 BTC
16:27	nubbins`	"Listings for virtual currency are not permitted on the ebay.ca site and this category will be removed on February 10, 2014. You may continue to list these items on the ebay.com site in the Coins & Paper Money>Virtual Currency category in the Classified Ad format only."
16:29	dub	wat
16:29	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SFI] 1000 @ 0.00082017 = 0.8202 BTC [+] {5}
16:29	ThickAsThieves	you wanna sell this garbage, go to america!
16:29	dub	I thought ebay.uk was adding virtual currency category onfeb 10
16:29	mircea_popescu	it's all very complicated.
16:31	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 6500 @ 0.00011978 = 0.7786 BTC [+]
16:40	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8950 @ 0.00093192 = 8.3407 BTC [-]
16:41	jurov	bitstamp got hdd failure?
16:41	jurov	or what?
16:41	jurov	or they ran out of power in slovenia?
16:42	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18050 @ 0.00093379 = 16.8549 BTC [+]
16:44	mircea_popescu	apparently slovenia has an issue
16:44	herbijudlestoids	mornin
16:44	mircea_popescu	kako ran out of juice earlier
16:44	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 7 @ 0.04800011 = 0.336 BTC [-]
16:45	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 18551 @ 0.00093102 = 17.2714 BTC [-] {2}
16:46	mircea_popescu	http://www.bertc.com/subsix/i95/images/95-30.jpg << guess the chick.
16:46	herbijudlestoids	mircea_popescu: i hadnt really planned to make it into a blog post, but duffer1 asked if i had and i thought maybe it might be interesting to see what happens if i put it in a blog post :P ...whats wrong with blogspot?
16:47	mircea_popescu	it sucks omg!
16:47	mircea_popescu	seriously, get a blog you control.
16:47	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.169 BTC [-]
16:47	herbijudlestoids	very specific of you :P
16:48	mircea_popescu	you don't want some random idiots with a "here's a link to our other stuff" on your page,
16:48	mircea_popescu	you don't want to be stuck if you want to move domains,
16:48	mircea_popescu	you don't want anyone deciding if and when to put a "warning page" on your material,
16:48	mircea_popescu	you don't want them filtering your comments, or generally,
16:48	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.24310363 BTC
16:48	mircea_popescu	you don't want to help google in any way whatsoever unless it's paying for it.
16:49	mircea_popescu	do your own things.
16:50	herbijudlestoids	i think im ok with most of those things, and i feel like as long as there is no ads on the site then its probably costing google more than they are making off me in analytics
16:51	mircea_popescu	i'm never going to comment on it, for instance.
16:51	herbijudlestoids	im sure in the cases where iv said something stupid enough to warrant your comment, ill hear about it from gribble anyway :P
16:51	mircea_popescu	entirely possible.
16:52	mircea_popescu	all hitler needs is for ordinary people to keep using google.
16:52	punkman	we need Mircea Popescu's Search Engine
16:53	mircea_popescu	nah, let them do that.
16:53	jayk	卍
16:53	mircea_popescu	just don't help them do other things. buy ford cars, don't buy ford umbrellas.
16:55	punkman	the Android AIDS is spreading pretty fast
16:56	jayk	android aids?
16:58	herbijudlestoids	so basically i gotta go and setup fkn wordpress and buy a domain just to write some blogs i didnt originally intend to write lol
16:58	herbijudlestoids	yea i think ill pass
16:59	punkman	herbijudlestoids: http://staticsitegenerators.net/
16:59	punkman	you can just pastebin it
16:59	punkman	beats blogspot
16:59	mircea_popescu	pretty much anything beats blogspot.
16:59	mircea_popescu	pankkake see, there's the usercase
17:00	pankkake	?
17:00	mircea_popescu	assets-blog
17:00	herbijudlestoids	well i would prefer pastebin but it doesnt let me insert content like images and equations
17:00	mircea_popescu	can you put a wordpress.com clone on the assass ?
17:00	pankkake	you're just switching evil google by evil MP
17:00	mircea_popescu	there's a difference in evil. @mp you can scream.
17:01	pankkake	WP.com is open source too, but… it's work to maintain it. I don't see the point
17:01	herbijudlestoids	^
17:01	mircea_popescu	the point of work is control.
17:01	herbijudlestoids	mircea_popescu: i showed your blog to a few people over the weekend, they *all* asked if the guy in the photo with the beard is me
17:02	mircea_popescu	lol
17:02	herbijudlestoids	i kind of look like that
17:02	herbijudlestoids	(especially when im bearded)
17:02	mircea_popescu	"if your daddy doesn't have a beard you have two moms"
17:02	pankkake	I do host my own blogs, but it takes time, sometimes I fuck up, etc. I don't want to do that for other people
17:02	mircea_popescu	pankkake why not ? the more you fuck up for other people the more you have reason to love them.
17:02	pankkake	no, and I have done it before
17:03	herbijudlestoids	so between posting the blog article here and on reddit i managed to drive 180 views to the article
17:03	herbijudlestoids	interesting
17:03	mircea_popescu	no, see ?
17:03	pankkake	also needs backups that are dead man proof
17:03	KRS-	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1wu6je/bitcoin_investment_55_450_daily_for_80_days_lets/
17:03	ozbot	Bitcoin Investment - 55% - 450% DAILY FOR 80 DAYS. Lets make Bitcoin the international currency norm
17:03	mircea_popescu	six months down the road you will be kicking yourself.
17:03	KRS-	seems legit
17:04	mircea_popescu	pankkake ppl can backup their own shit in wp.
17:04	pankkake	hm, right
17:04	pankkake	with wordpress.COM too by the way :p
17:04	KRS-	If Russia makes BTC illegal with all businesses and financial institutions what market value hit do you think we'd see? 10%?
17:05	pankkake	so you can always chose to go elsewhere easily
17:05	mircea_popescu	KRS- + more likely than -
17:05	herbijudlestoids	wihle i was on reddit last night i saw someone with a thread about how mtgox was going to bust soon, they apparently have even stopped btc withdrawals?
17:05	mircea_popescu	herbijudlestoids they've been dead man walking since april 2013.
17:05	jurov	KRS- negative govt recognition always helps
17:05	mircea_popescu	other than the penny ante noobs not rly anybody still using them as best one can determine
17:05	KRS-	what rly
17:06	KRS-	wouldnt a ton of coin be dumped by those who cant use it anymore
17:06	mircea_popescu	what are you, 12?
17:06	KRS-	Wouldnt the supply increase?
17:06	mircea_popescu	the last thing someone does in a jurisdiction that made btc illegal is dump it
17:06	KRS-	oh it does the opposite
17:06	mircea_popescu	doh.
17:06	Dimsler_	no they wouldn't
17:06	TATonawalk	added thoughts on bitcoin fiverr - integrate with wot to manage reputation. package that integration method as an identity service for other cryptobizzes. handholding the masses into compliance and get paid for it.
17:06	Dimsler_	thats just silly
17:07	Dimsler_	you can apply that to prohibition in the US
17:07	Dimsler_	and the war on drugs
17:07	Dimsler_	nobody was dumping anything
17:07	mircea_popescu	TATonawalk adding to the workload at this point is stupid. let it be simple.
17:07	KRS-	makes sense..sorry for my ignorance.
17:07	jurov	rly. if govt wanted to tax it instead, that could cause some problem.
17:07	TATonawalk	just sharing
17:07	mircea_popescu	KRS- dun feel too bad
17:08	KRS-	Its cool..I don't mind learning..I'm an IT guy with a business degree, I actually should know better.
17:08	benkay	i was perusing a buddy's lady's business textbook
17:08	TATonawalk	could be an independent thing anyway
17:08	benkay	goodness the things they say about network design
17:09	TATonawalk	making the wot friendly easy
17:09	mircea_popescu	not a bad idea.
17:12	herbijudlestoids	20 tick returns distribution: http://imgur.com/ABfjFaX
17:13	herbijudlestoids	20 tick vols: http://imgur.com/AJsBk7H
17:13	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.1300001 BTC [-]
17:13	herbijudlestoids	pretty good to see vols clustering and mean reverting, good sign of a healthy microstructure in the market
17:14	mircea_popescu	this thing really gives the finger.
17:14	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.13000008 = 0.26 BTC [-] {2}
17:14	mircea_popescu	i mean... both pics nao
17:15	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 6 @ 0.12666666 = 0.76 BTC [-] {3}
17:16	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.10899999 BTC [-]
17:17	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.10966666 = 0.329 BTC [+] {2}
17:18	benkay	what's the hot jam for running pools?
17:18	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 7 @ 0.12 = 0.84 BTC [+]
17:18	nubbins`	cum
17:18	benkay	eloipool?
17:18	nubbins`	oh, sorry, thought you said ruining pools
17:19	benkay	no clarification needed nubbins`
17:19	mircea_popescu	cum ruins pools ?!
17:19	mircea_popescu	o may gawd....
17:20	TATonawalk	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1wtz2b/2124_btc_destroyed_in_proofofburn/ dafu?
17:20	ozbot	2124 BTC destroyed in proof-of-burn : Bitcoin
17:20	herbijudlestoids	here is a detrended price oscillator against the same timeseries http://imgur.com/zZgcAqn
17:21	mircea_popescu	herbijudlestoids all this stuff almost makes me believe s.mpoe is not a scam after all.
17:21	mircea_popescu	i mean... it almost looks like a regular stock
17:21	nubbins`	mircea_popescu, ikr? weep for what you have done
17:21	herbijudlestoids	almost, trades a lot less tho
17:22	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 3050 @ 0.00011978 = 0.3653 BTC [+]
17:22	mircea_popescu	nubbins` all these years...
17:23	mircea_popescu	TATonawalk you mean dafe ?
17:23	mircea_popescu	"The Counterparty Team just went ahead and wrote their own stuff, doing what Colored Coins, NxT and Mastercoin failed to do these past 6 – 9 months. Not even Ripple has assets like these issued and trading."
17:24	mircea_popescu	well at least *part* of that statement is correct.
17:25	asciilifeform	1) set up 'proof of burn' addrs with secret escape hatch 2) profit
17:25	pankkake	oh of course it comes with its coin
17:25	mircea_popescu	asciilifeform neverhteless, the assessment that nxt, cc, mc etc did nothing the past 9 months is correct.
17:26	mircea_popescu	then again cc did nothing over 3 installments and 2+ years.
17:26	asciilifeform	did nothing?
17:26	asciilifeform	other than chump-vacuuming, you mean ?
17:26	mircea_popescu	hardly any of that, either.
17:27	mircea_popescu	the thing with chump vacuuming is that creating the impression of a lot of chumps having been vacuumed already is part and parcel of the model.
17:27	mircea_popescu	sort-of like if a lion's success in catching gazelles was helped by it going around with a lot of dead gazelles.
17:27	asciilifeform	naturally, a discerning chump will insist on parking in a mass grave of his peers, not some lonely hole in an abandoned lot
17:27	mircea_popescu	there;d be dead gazelle lure shops for entrepreneurial lions
17:28	pankkake	I haven't looked up nxt's proof of stage algo… the half open java source doesn't help
17:28	pankkake	of stake*
17:28	mircea_popescu	i can't believe someone's still expecting to be taken serious with java
17:29	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 31 @ 0.00448889 = 0.1392 BTC [+]
17:29	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CBTC] 36681 @ 0.00011978 = 4.3937 BTC [+] {3}
17:30	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.125 BTC [-]
17:30	ThickAsThieves	'we arent spending those burned coins, just moving to safer location!'
17:31	mircea_popescu	waitwut
17:31	ThickAsThieves	joking
17:31	asciilifeform	'phoenixcoin,' rises from ashes.
17:31	dub	proof of scam
17:31	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HMF] 4 @ 0.0288 = 0.1152 BTC [+]
17:31	pankkake	phoenixcoin exists by the way
17:31	asciilifeform	ought to include 'burns'
17:32	ThickAsThieves	every satoshi spent is a burn
17:32	nubbins`	smashrate
17:32	nubbins`	etc
17:32	pankkake	we could generate every coin for every word of the dictionnary, but the port numbers would conflict
17:32	nubbins`	sure, until portcoin
17:33	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HMF] 4 @ 0.02879999 = 0.1152 BTC [-] {2}
17:33	ThickAsThieves	we will have to refer to our conversation of bitcoin business names for altgen.io
17:33	pankkake	getrichquick.io
17:34	pankkake	getrichordietry.in
17:34	ThickAsThieves	coinularity
17:34	asciilifeform	'getpoorquick'
17:34	herbijudlestoids	judging from the charts, MPOE does seem like a very good candidate for mean reversion trades
17:34	pankkake	well, we're not saying who's getting rich
17:35	ThickAsThieves	gryft
17:35	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 29984 @ 0.00093403 = 28.006 BTC [+] {3}
17:35	ThickAsThieves	crowdcoin
17:36	benkay	what the hell is up with the pool software space
17:36	ThickAsThieves	crowncoincloud.io
17:37	ThickAsThieves	fortune9000
17:37	pankkake	hahaha
17:37	benkay	fortuneover9000
17:37	pankkake	thatsthejoke.io
17:38	benkay	upyourbutt.coin
17:38	ThickAsThieves	piratesbengay
17:38	mircea_popescu	lol
17:38	mircea_popescu	yourefuck.ed ?
17:39	KRS-	heh
17:39	ThickAsThieves	cryptogen
17:39	mircea_popescu	yourefuck.edu actually. just for that lovely your e-fuck, youre fuck etc grammar splendor.
17:39	ThickAsThieves	all in the name of education
17:39	mircea_popescu	the ideal one'd be co.in of course.
17:40	mircea_popescu	i don't think we're springing for that tho
17:40	ThickAsThieves	maybe this guy is selling http://altco.in
17:40	jurov	fc.uk
17:42	ThickAsThieves	i shoulda done the damn domain squatting ipo
17:42	ThickAsThieves	.coin
17:43	ThickAsThieves	.bitcoin
17:43	ThickAsThieves	etc
17:43	mircea_popescu	meanwhile in countries which are not slovenia : http://noescapepublicnudity.tumblr.com/image/42491287328
17:43	jurov	that's in czech rep
17:44	mircea_popescu	mhm
17:44	ThickAsThieves	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1wtbdt/doge_devs_just_fucked_all_the_initial_investors/
17:44	ozbot	Doge devs just fucked all the initial investors by making Doge very inflationary and removing the ca
17:44	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves ha!
17:44	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.24310363 BTC
17:44	herbijudlestoids	lol "investors"
17:44	mircea_popescu	herbijudlestoids no, they actually believe this
17:45	KRS-	http://shouldipanicsell.com/
17:45	ozbot	Should i panic sell ?
17:45	ThickAsThieves	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1wtbdt/doge_devs_just_fucked_all_the_initial_investors/cf5fcfg
17:45	KRS-	lmao
17:45	ozbot	TATInvestments comments on Doge devs just fucked all the initial investors by making Doge very infla
17:45	KRS-	Hey ozbot wb
17:45	KRS-	.bait
17:45	ozbot	http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lzynlvUDlu1r2mc2eo1_500.jpg
17:45	ThickAsThieves	actually
17:45	KRS-	ThickAsThieves think this is a good buying opportunity?
17:45	ThickAsThieves	no source code!
17:45	ThickAsThieves	its a feature!
17:46	KRS-	Oh my bait
17:46	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 76350 @ 0.00093503 = 71.3895 BTC [+] {3}
17:47	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves here's the cool part : 19:24:15
17:47	mircea_popescu	mircea_popescu:
17:47	mircea_popescu	basically bitcoin got attacked in 2013 by the most unlikely of sources : the dieing start-up circus. that was... bout 6 hours 20 mins ago ?
17:47	mircea_popescu	the numerous conincidences of cryptozoo.
17:48	pankkake	http://i.imgur.com/cE3U4dJ.jpg
17:48	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.24310363 BTC
17:48	ThickAsThieves	i wash my hair of this!
17:49	pankkake	dogecoin isn't especially inflationary
17:49	ThickAsThieves	http://www.reddit.com/r/Bitcoin/comments/1wtbiu/how_i_stole_roughly_100_btc_from_an_exchange_and/
17:49	ozbot	How I stole roughly 100 BTC from an exchange and how I could have stolen more : Bitcoin
17:49	ThickAsThieves	(Coinbase)
17:50	pankkake	lol what kind of noob thing allows that
17:50	pankkake	first post on point
17:51	benkay	wowee #dogecoin is an utter shitshow
17:51	ThickAsThieves	mpex does same thing sometimes, no?
17:51	ThickAsThieves	the Bugpowder incident
17:51	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.12323332 = 0.3697 BTC [+] {2}
17:52	KRS-	Mmm
17:52	KRS-	.bait
17:52	ozbot	http://24.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_m0m64is25j1qaooc8o1_500.jpg
17:52	dub	benkay: yeah lol
17:52	jurov	but it did not end up with successful withdrawal
17:52	mircea_popescu	ThickAsThieves how you mean ?
17:52	herbijudlestoids	KRS- just sits in here baitin all day
17:52	dub	its like /b/ without ritalin
17:52	ThickAsThieves	he got a receipt for an option he didnt get
17:52	KRS-	.bait is a nice feature.
17:53	jurov	afaik only once me and smickles confused mircea into doing a withdrawal twice
17:53	ozbot	http://25.media.tumblr.com/tumblr_lxmqrg63E61r1ricko1_1280.jpg
17:53	mircea_popescu	so how is this related ?
17:54	ThickAsThieves	just saying that not just noobs have systems that can break linear value movement
17:54	jurov	oh yes, lock yer balances correctly
17:55	mircea_popescu	mpex spouts all sorts of crap all the time tho,
17:55	mircea_popescu	bujt the problem there seems to be that they executed crap, not that they claimed crap
17:56	ThickAsThieves	pots and kettles can share color, but not shape
17:56	mircea_popescu	making a woman is hard enough
17:56	mircea_popescu	making her also say what she means is beyond even what god can accomplish
17:57	ThickAsThieves	amen
17:57	ThickAsThieves	mpex is a tin woman?
17:58	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.125 = 0.25 BTC [+]
17:58	ThickAsThieves	the burden of money
17:58	davout	mircea_popescu: lol
17:59	mircea_popescu	look, we got fixed len str
18:00	mircea_popescu	jurov there's a guy that managed to get his assets transferred twice back in the old days (2012), netted like 300 btc from it.
18:00	mircea_popescu	opperator error.
18:00	jurov	nice. i gained only 10btc.
18:01	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 15200 @ 0.00093536 = 14.2175 BTC [+] {2}
18:02	mircea_popescu	"I don't see this making a difference. There are lost coins in every currency. A 10K block reward is peanuts. Any anyways, the developers could always modify this in the future if it became a problem."
18:02	mircea_popescu	gotta love all the damage control.
18:02	mircea_popescu	someone's working overtime this weekend.
18:03	ThickAsThieves	the realize the power of Altcoin and that they need to gut themselves quickly
18:03	ThickAsThieves	they*
18:03	herbijudlestoids	here are the MPOE trade volumes http://imgur.com/fNa5B9q per tick, no discernible diurnal pattern
18:03	ThickAsThieves	100 Bitcoin ATMs Land In Australia
18:03	ThickAsThieves	not bad!
18:04	mircea_popescu	actually from there seems people are coding their bots to sorta split orders over ticks huh
18:04	herbijudlestoids	almost certainly
18:04	mircea_popescu	(i wouldn't expect any pattern, since most everyone will be trading via pympex or similar, it's trivial to just schedule w/e)
18:05	mircea_popescu	diurnal or w/e i mean
18:05	herbijudlestoids	well most stuff i watch is traded algorithmically in aggregate and still has strong diurnal patterns
18:05	herbijudlestoids	i guess usage is much higher
18:05	mircea_popescu	this is a point
18:05	mircea_popescu	maybe people actually suck at algos in fiat ?
18:06	mircea_popescu	ie, their algorithmia is more akin to a wheelchair than a car
18:06	mircea_popescu	alternatively, australia, japan, china, russia, iran, europe, the us... there might be some slight pattern not visible cause low sample yet.
18:07	herbijudlestoids	yes thats possible too
18:07	mircea_popescu	basically what do you see in the other stuff, the pacific ocean right ?
18:07	herbijudlestoids	depends, but mostly the tokyo/london/NY is the 3 prominent phases
18:07	mircea_popescu	ah
18:08	mircea_popescu	well also yeah, bitcoin doesn't realyl have "financial centers"
18:08	herbijudlestoids	and the hours where they overlap liquidity is strongest
18:08	herbijudlestoids	for example tokyo/london overlap is only slightly less liquid than london/NY overlap, and in currencies like AUDJPY or index futs like HSI its more liquid
18:09	herbijudlestoids	doesnt have financial centers, yet ;)
18:09	mircea_popescu	i doubt it'll ever have any. why would it ?
18:11	mircea_popescu	also... i suspect a large number of btc people are not-normal sleep patterned.
18:11	herbijudlestoids	mircea_popescu: lets say for example bitstamp becomes the #1 worldwide retail payment gateway foreverything forever
18:11	mircea_popescu	okay
18:11	herbijudlestoids	obviously they will affect the diurnal pattern because they do payouts on a cyclical basis
18:12	herbijudlestoids	err bitstamp==bitpay, sorry
18:12	mircea_popescu	lol bitstamp made some sense, even if kako was gonna kill you once he got his electric chair back
18:12	mircea_popescu	but bitpay ?! i dun see it in any sense.
18:13	mircea_popescu	anyway. few people if at all trade on this junkie's routine, of gotta wait for check to clear style.
18:13	mircea_popescu	generally people maintain liquidity through planning, it'd be rare that a trade has to be stayed because waiting for confirms.
18:14	herbijudlestoids	ye, i was mostly just curious, actually kind of hoping to see an obvious time based pattern so i could focus some efforts into that window
18:14	mircea_popescu	it'd also be antieconomical
18:17	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.17 BTC [+]
18:17	herbijudlestoids	anyway, i guess i better do some real work today since its monday.
18:17	herbijudlestoids	behave yourselves children :)
18:22	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2633 @ 0.0009328 = 2.4561 BTC [-]
18:22	benkay	mircea_popescu: pm
18:23	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.24310363 BTC
18:25	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 4 @ 0.57724998 = 2.309 BTC [+] {3}
18:29	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [MS] 400 @ 0.005 = 2 BTC
18:36	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 14161 @ 0.00093541 = 13.2463 BTC [+]
18:37	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 38 @ 0.00448889 = 0.1706 BTC [+]
18:48	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.24310363 = 0.7293 BTC
18:52	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 500 @ 0.00295769 = 1.4788 BTC [+] {6}
18:57	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 17244 @ 0.00093564 = 16.1342 BTC [+] {4}
19:06	wao-ender	oh, someone looks on cyclical bitpay payouts heh
19:17	Dimsler_	you guys
19:17	Dimsler_	what the hell blockscan
19:17	Dimsler_	and xcp
19:21	Namworld	Stupid MtGox and it's late transactions
19:32	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [HMF] 14 @ 0.0288 = 0.4032 BTC [+]
		~ 17 minutes ~
19:49	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 7950 @ 0.00093094 = 7.401 BTC [-] {3}
20:02	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 4 @ 0.17289988 = 0.6916 BTC [+] {3}
20:09	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 2 @ 0.24310363 = 0.4862 BTC
20:13	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.17289989 BTC [+]
20:17	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 150 @ 0.002958 = 0.4437 BTC [+]
		~ 39 minutes ~
20:56	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 6 @ 0.59016664 = 3.541 BTC [+] {4}
20:58	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 2 @ 0.594 = 1.188 BTC [+]
21:01	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 1 @ 0.5999 BTC [+]
21:02	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 12 @ 0.126 = 1.512 BTC [+]
21:08	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 13 @ 0.24310363 = 3.1603 BTC
21:09	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 3 @ 0.12999999 = 0.39 BTC [+]
21:11	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.12500002 BTC [-]
21:12	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.12500001 = 0.25 BTC [-] {2}
21:13	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.125 BTC [-]
21:14	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 9 @ 0.112 = 1.008 BTC [-]
21:16	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 6 @ 0.125 = 0.75 BTC [-]
21:18	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.112 BTC [-]
21:19	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 5 @ 0.24310363 = 1.2155 BTC
21:20	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 6 @ 0.125 = 0.75 BTC [-]
21:21	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 3 @ 0.07333339 = 0.22 BTC [-] {2}
21:22	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5700 @ 0.00093599 = 5.3351 BTC [+]
21:23	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [CFIG] 2 @ 0.073 = 0.146 BTC [-]
21:24	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.1225 = 0.245 BTC [-]
21:27	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 9669 @ 0.00093461 = 9.0367 BTC [-]
21:40	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 1398 @ 0.002958 = 4.1353 BTC [+]
21:44	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [NEOBEE] 3000 @ 0.0029589 = 8.8767 BTC [+]
21:44	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [SFI] 124 @ 0.00083999 = 0.1042 BTC [-] {2}
21:47	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 1 @ 0.24310363 BTC
21:47	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.125 BTC [+]
		~ 18 minutes ~
22:06	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8600 @ 0.00093599 = 8.0495 BTC [+]
22:07	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.15999997 BTC [+]
22:10	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 1 @ 0.125 BTC [+]
22:23	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 4800 @ 0.000932 = 4.4736 BTC [-]
22:27	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 8550 @ 0.00093606 = 8.0033 BTC [+] {2}
22:30	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.SELL] 2 @ 0.125 = 0.25 BTC [+]
22:37	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.15999997 BTC [+]
22:40	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 5062 @ 0.0009319 = 4.7173 BTC [-] {2}
		~ 19 minutes ~
22:59	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 15 @ 0.24310363 = 3.6466 BTC
23:04	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [MS] 50 @ 0.005 = 0.25 BTC
23:07	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [DEALCO] 55 @ 0.00448889 = 0.2469 BTC [+]
23:09	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [PETA] 7 @ 0.04979999 = 0.3486 BTC [+]
23:14	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.15999993 BTC [-]
23:16	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM1] 13 @ 0.59992076 = 7.799 BTC [+] {2}
23:18	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [AM100] 19 @ 0.00581408 = 0.1105 BTC [-] {3}
23:19	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2804 @ 0.00093227 = 2.6141 BTC [+] {2}
23:22	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 1 @ 0.15999993 BTC [-]
23:23	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 1700 @ 0.00093004 = 1.5811 BTC [-]
23:36	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.MINE] 2 @ 0.15999994 = 0.32 BTC [+] {2}
23:38	assbot	[HAVELOCK] [B.EXCH] 3 @ 0.24310363 = 0.7293 BTC
		~ 15 minutes ~
23:53	assbot	[MPEX] [S.MPOE] 2500 @ 0.00093294 = 2.3324 BTC [+]

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