Show Idle (>14 d.) Chans
← 2018-01-16 | 2018-01-18 → ↓
01:59 ben_vulpes mircea_popescu: venmo is a touchscreen software abomination that claims to suck money out of one us account and put it into another
~ 3 hours 36 minutes ~
05:35 mircea_popescu phf shorts because you probably tore proper pants by climbing into tree.
05:36 mircea_popescu asciilifeform abandoned in 2011 ?
05:37 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771626 << shit i used to make these! 1992 represent!
05:37 a111 Logged on 2018-01-17 04:31 phf: oh, hah, i remember this "bytebeat" stuff, before it had a fancy name
05:37 mircea_popescu deathtrack and http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-13#1750862 !
05:37 a111 Logged on 2017-12-13 18:44 asciilifeform: and was played using clever method , where normally '1-bit' pc speaker membrane was allowed to travel 'partial' way , squeezing extra 'bitness'
05:38 mircea_popescu https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=d6QFV_2BY6w
~ 19 minutes ~
05:58 mircea_popescu http://yehar.com/blog/?p=893 << how to save 50 euro for the cost of five plus liberal application of your time (which has no value).
06:06 Techman mircea_popescu: what isy our take on bitcoin dropping below 10K (at least on binance)
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~ 15 minutes ~
06:22 apeloyee http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771008 << I doubt you actually understood why (If you had, you would be a lot more worried, per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771010 ). here's a simpler version of the puzzle: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/UmpSH/?raw=true . has exactly the same bug.
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06:22 a111 Logged on 2018-01-16 15:15 asciilifeform: and yes his example snippet ~will~ barf. and no i won't spoil the puzzle by saying where and how. and no it is not hard to make 9000 similar examples.
06:22 a111 Logged on 2018-01-16 15:15 asciilifeform: if anyone finds so much as the smell of one -- i would like to hear about it, asap.
06:28 apeloyee http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771004 << it's not me that does it at the expense of obvious correctness, but _you_. instead of having the compiler enforce no access to Stack(0), one is forced to rely solely on manual checking. But enough about that trivial matter; I'll just make the change locally.
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06:28 a111 Logged on 2018-01-16 15:13 asciilifeform: and willing to do so at the expense of obvious correctness ?
~ 1 hours 40 minutes ~
08:09 esthlos http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771055 << My thought was to scrap the current client in favor of a customized one, with eucrypt protocol as the backbone. Is this 1. not what you want, or 2. a bad idea?
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08:09 a111 Logged on 2018-01-16 15:57 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1770890 << to be clear, the idea here is that you pick up the extant eulora client, gut it of the current eulora functionality, put eucrypt in there and proceed to implement your idea. this way you have a proved-to-cross-compile platform to start from.
08:15 esthlos Rereading, seems clear that you want eulora's graphics engine.
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08:20 esthlos Alternative is stupidly simple text-driven client; downloads multimedia using eucrypt
08:23 shinohai Text-driven client is the holy grail for some of us Eulora people.
08:37 esthlos shinohai: I've targeted this as my first real contribution to la serenissima
08:38 shinohai You have my full support, and will be glad to help read/test any code you produce.
08:39 shinohai I started some work on this over a year ago, simply too much work for me because of irl obligations unfortunately.
08:45 diana_coman esthlos, "current eulora functionality" has nothing to do with graphics really; and client is totally up to players
08:45 diana_coman you can play it with whatever client you want, that's the point
08:53 shinohai !~later tell BingoBoingo Be sure to get your Bitcorn http://bitcorns.com/ico.html
08:53 jhvh1 shinohai: The operation succeeded.
~ 18 minutes ~
09:11 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771637 << your item clobbers the modulus as it runs. what i dunget, is why this would justify making the range of SP wider than Stack itself, as seen in your paste earlier.
09:11 a111 Logged on 2018-01-17 11:22 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771008 << I doubt you actually understood why (If you had, you would be a lot more worried, per http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771010 ). here's a simpler version of the puzzle: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/UmpSH/?raw=true . has exactly the same bug.
09:13 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771640 << MustNotZero has 0 to do with Stack(0), it is there to keep the tape from creating a div0
09:13 a111 Logged on 2018-01-17 11:28 apeloyee: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771004 << it's not me that does it at the expense of obvious correctness, but _you_. instead of having the compiler enforce no access to Stack(0), one is forced to rely solely on manual checking. But enough about that trivial matter; I'll just make the change locally.
09:14 asciilifeform and no, not 'enough', i'd like to find out wtf apeloyee was thinking
09:15 asciilifeform specifically, why :
09:15 asciilifeform subtype Stack_Positions is Natural range 0 .. Height;
09:15 asciilifeform type Stacks is array(Stack_Positions range <>) of FZ(1 .. Wordness);
09:15 asciilifeform - Stack : Stacks(Stack_Positions'Range);
09:15 asciilifeform + Stack : Stacks(1..Height);
09:22 shinohai Logged: 09:17 +Hasimir and yes, libgcrypt is part of the larger project, Werner and Niibe are at the core of GNU security.
09:22 asciilifeform the proper way to enforce 'no access to Stack(0)' would be to constrain Stack_Positions to 1 .. Height. but this leaves no way to represent an empty stack.
~ 15 minutes ~
09:38 shinohai !~ticker --market all
09:38 jhvh1 shinohai: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 9568.75, vol: 38790.17876819 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 9459.4, vol: 131533.8373469 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 9569.0, vol: 10706.6833868 | Volume-weighted last average: 9489.31292948
~ 24 minutes ~
10:02 esthlos diana_coman I didn't mean to imply it would be "official" (tm) client
10:09 esthlos but having one in existence would help fellows in shinohai's position
10:09 diana_coman esthlos, certainly, not an issue; I think you are overthinking/overreading into this
10:09 shinohai Well as diana_coman said, Eulora encourages one to customize to one's liking.
10:10 shinohai You can play with pen and paper, I'm sure, if you find a method for so doing.
10:10 diana_coman and fwiw see history of foxybot: it started precisely like that, as a player-made-for-own-use thing and it ended up bundled into "official" client
10:11 diana_coman not by accident either; it's s.mg policy
10:11 * shinohai snail-mails diana_coman all my claim updates, looks around forlornly as they all vanish into lbn ....
10:11 diana_coman now hmm, where was that bit written on trilema
10:14 diana_coman esthlos, here it is: http://trilema.com/2015/ok-so-what-is-eulora-disrupting/
10:19 apeloyee MustNotZero has 0 to do with Stack(0) << I know.
10:19 shinohai Round 1 .... FIGHT, FIGHT, FIGHT!
10:20 apeloyee Hear, hear! If asciilifeform would agree to take discussion of why 1+1=2 elsewhere, I'll do.
10:21 asciilifeform apeloyee: let's hear the answer to the riddle ?
10:21 asciilifeform i'ma listen
10:22 apeloyee which.
10:22 asciilifeform both parts
10:23 apeloyee the change to size Stack in the first paste was irrelevant
10:23 apeloyee *size of Stack
10:23 asciilifeform that part i get, it doesn't have anything to do with the clobbering of the modulus
10:23 apeloyee yes
10:24 apeloyee why should correctness depend on order of the arguments?
10:24 apeloyee (on FFACalc stack)
10:24 asciilifeform because we're overwriting an input ?
10:25 asciilifeform could just as easily not, with temp buffer. but why.
10:25 asciilifeform it is not my place to make every possible mutilation of the program, safe. ( and is quite impossible )
10:26 asciilifeform prolly FZ_Mod_Exp oughta accumulate Product in a temp, and shit it out in 1shot in the end, like FZ_Mod_Mul.
10:26 asciilifeform though it is a waste of space and time.
10:27 asciilifeform i never proclaimed, fwiw, that all ffa routines must be able to cleanly walk over own inputs.
10:28 apeloyee what functions can tolerate aliasing of arguments is talked of precisely nowhere. and it's easy to forget about that when changing them later. and aliasing is used extensively.
10:28 apeloyee so can't say "don't do that"
10:28 asciilifeform used extensively ? where, other than the stack ops ?
10:29 apeloyee FZ_Mux
10:29 apeloyee is invoked many times with output = one of inputs
10:30 esthlos diana_voman very likely am over thinking things
10:30 esthlos lol diana_coman
10:30 asciilifeform has apeloyee found a specific instance where it can be made to eggog ? or is this a hypothetical 'once less clueful people start changing things' observation ?
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10:30 esthlos I will proceed one step at a time
10:30 apeloyee the latter.
10:31 asciilifeform because there isn't actually a limit as to what less-clueful people can break, regardless of what i do
10:31 asciilifeform but i can't help but agree with apeloyee re the Product in FZ_Mod_Exp , it gotta be buffered.
10:31 diana_coman esthlos, lol! auto-completion helps
10:31 asciilifeform the cost is small in comparison with the mod-exping per se
10:31 apeloyee this can be used to justify pointer arithmetic and what-not. Just don't do unsafe things!!
10:32 apeloyee FZ_Mod_Mul also
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10:32 asciilifeform the ch7 one ? yea
10:32 apeloyee (as implemented in chapter 7, but not chapter 6)
10:32 asciilifeform aha
10:32 asciilifeform i'ma buffer'em.
10:33 asciilifeform really all routines oughta behave consistently in re input-overwrite.
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10:33 shinohai Diana Voman sounds very Soviet to me for some reason.
10:34 asciilifeform this is a bit of a downer, i confess that i hoped apeloyee had found a more subtle, lethal boojum.
10:34 apeloyee and add a new exercise: re-read all previous chapters and write what aliasing of arguments is safe
10:34 apeloyee nope,sorry
10:34 asciilifeform lol
10:35 asciilifeform apeloyee still wins 'most attentive eagle eye' award.
10:36 asciilifeform the 1 caveat re buffers, is that there is a practical limit as to what can be made anticlobbering: if i were to do it to items that occur in inner loops of O(n^3)istic items, e.g. mux, proggy will end up 'geological' 4ever.
10:37 apeloyee I think everything up to ch.5 is safe as long as arguments are either equal or don't overlap
10:37 apeloyee *memory locations of the arguments
10:38 asciilifeform afaik it isn't actually possible to write overlap-safe routines without implicit (or otherwise) branches
10:38 asciilifeform in the general case.
10:39 apeloyee does gnat provide a facility to check aliasing at runtime?
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10:40 asciilifeform partially ( for array copies ) . but it gets nuked by No_Implicit_Conditionals.
10:42 asciilifeform ffa itself is a sort of tightrope walk, an attempt to 'и рыбку съесть и нахуй сесть' . it isn't actually possible to make all of the routines able to take every conceivable kind of compile-time abuse ( which i'd argue overlap of arguments, is ) without conditional jumps.
10:43 apeloyee conditional jumps are OK if one of the destinations just aborts the program
10:43 apeloyee as with MustNotZero
10:43 asciilifeform right, e.g. the range checks
10:43 asciilifeform ( they don't appear in the code, but they exist )
10:44 apeloyee aliasing checks are like range checks in this regard
10:44 asciilifeform No_Implicit_Conditionals does not affect such jumps however
10:44 asciilifeform ( observe , they are still present in the disasm )
10:45 apeloyee then why "it gets nuked by No_Implicit_Conditionals."? wreckers (tm)?
10:45 asciilifeform it isn't a wrecking
10:45 asciilifeform No_Implicit_Conditionals is working as described on the box : https://docs.adacore.com/gnathie_ug-docs/html/gnathie_ug/gnathie_ug/using_gnat_pro_features_relevant_to_high_integrity.html#controlling-implicit-conditionals-and-loops
10:48 asciilifeform and afaik gnat does not know how to prevent aliasing in the general case, but only in a few specific situations ( array copies )
10:50 apeloyee well, ideally it would have a "No_Out_Arguments_Aliasing" restriction which would insert runtime checks
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10:50 asciilifeform yea
10:50 asciilifeform but afaik no such item exists , even in '2012'
10:50 apeloyee gnat implements many nonstandard restrictions
10:51 asciilifeform possibly one can make a SPARKistic proof of non-aliasing , for proggy taken as a whole. i'ma look into it.
10:52 asciilifeform thing is, a sparkism is not a substitute for a 'fits-in-head'-correct routine.
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10:52 asciilifeform proggy ought to be written in such a way that the reader can ~see~ that it is correct.
10:53 asciilifeform this is the #1 type of stylistic fix that i look for -- 'can this be made more obviously-correct-when-used-as-prescribed' and 'can use-as-prescribed be made more obvious'
10:54 apeloyee yes. hence me bringing this item here
10:55 asciilifeform aha. ty apeloyee , for taking the sweat to do this.
10:55 asciilifeform i'm still curious re the SP tho
10:55 asciilifeform can you think of a way to have the range of SP and of Stack be the same, but to still represent concept of 'empty' ?
~ 31 minutes ~
11:27 BingoBoingo !~ticker --market all
11:27 jhvh1 BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 9962.0, vol: 43036.01398257 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 10082.0, vol: 142442.83558633 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 10048.3, vol: 11690.3715496 | Volume-weighted last average: 10053.8095595
11:27 asciilifeform oh hey waterfall working again
11:28 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Are you sure? http://btcbase.org/log/2017-01-16#1603917
11:28 a111 Logged on 2017-01-16 18:11 jhvh1: BingoBoingo: Bitstamp BTCUSD last: 828.5, vol: 5371.02382600 | BTC-E BTCUSD last: 819.819, vol: 4067.02976 | Bitfinex BTCUSD last: 827.09, vol: 7289.43424066 | BTCChina BTCUSD last: 820.81503, vol: 506972.47910000 | Kraken BTCUSD last: 834.0, vol: 1190.23580128 | Volume-weighted last average: 821.002992125
11:29 BingoBoingo 10+x crashing over last year
11:29 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: hey they only nao plugged it back in
11:32 BingoBoingo Nah, this appears to be an Azn attempt at replicating white person's waterfall
11:35 shinohai Gotta sell all my Bitcorn before the Missus finds out I spent all our monies on the Bitconnect ponzi.
11:39 apeloyee can you think of a way to have the range of SP and of Stack be the same << this is plainly absurd. a N-sized stack has (modulo contents) N+1 possible states: "0 elements", "1 element", ..., "N elements". i.e.the ranges MUST differ, by exactly one.
11:40 BingoBoingo In other shithole factories: meltdown/specte patches are making a bunch of industrial systems wobble! Chinesium's about to get a low more Pinoy
11:41 asciilifeform apeloyee: i dunget why absurd ? my other arrays behave this way.
11:42 asciilifeform i.e. in all cases where the array has a custom indexing type as the index, the array exists over the entire range of said type.
11:43 asciilifeform concretely, e.g., Dividend_Index in http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch7_turbo_egyptians#L31
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11:48 asciilifeform apeloyee: a long-term goal is to have the whole proggy bulletproof even after building under '-gnatp' ('disable all range checks'). relying on the range check of Stack , vs SP's range, does not go well with this
11:48 apeloyee Logically, SP isn't a reference. It's a cursor, showing the boundary between the valid and invalid elements. If a line in a text editor has N sybols, then a cursor has N+1 valid positions. (Consider that an empty line sill has 1 valid cursor position).
11:48 asciilifeform ideally there would be some way to trap any reference to the zero cell, or , failing that, to prove that the zero cell cannot end up referenced.
11:49 asciilifeform apeloyee: well yes, i get it. but i DON'T LIKE it.
11:49 asciilifeform i'd like to resolve the apparent contradiction between 'all possible SP positions are valid dereferences' and 'stack can be empty'.
11:54 apeloyee an extra element won't save the father of russian democracy (c), if FFACalc stack manipulation code is wrong; e.g. if a 'Want(X)' statement is omiitted
11:54 asciilifeform right. but why would it be omitted.
11:56 asciilifeform one way i considered doing this, is to do away with all such things as 'SP - 1', 'SP - 2', etc. and instead to have e.g. Get_Stack_First, Get_Stack_Second, etc., each of which individually would ensure that the desired element exists. but these would have to return 'access type' (pointers) which thus far i've avoided using .
11:56 apeloyee if FFACalc code is correct, then it's also safe to omit that zero-indexed element from Stack
11:56 asciilifeform this is true. but 1) ugly 2) possibly will get in the way of sparkism, later; it relies on type ranges for good chunk of the proofolade
11:59 asciilifeform hmm, what if one were to model SP as in apeloyee's analogy, the text editor cursor. i.e. the pos of the ~next~ valid stack cell, rather than 'current'.
12:00 asciilifeform then to refer to current, would be 'SP - 1' rather than 'SP'
12:00 apeloyee no need
12:01 apeloyee cursors are pointing _between_ elements
12:01 asciilifeform well it'd turn a pop from empty stack into a range-dipping eggog instantly
12:01 asciilifeform and abolish need to want()
12:01 asciilifeform ( at the very least, if range checks are enabled for ffacalc )
12:02 asciilifeform there's an explicit range test construct, btw
12:03 apeloyee the proper range for a cursor into an array (1..N) is (0.5 .. N+0.5); this is usually shifted to become (1 .. N+1) as in text editors, but no reason not to shift in the other direction, as you did, to (0..N)
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12:04 apeloyee (other than convention)
12:05 apeloyee SP _is_ a cursor, I'm merely suggesting to treat it as such
12:08 apeloyee "1) ugly" << can't see that.; "2) ... it relies on type ranges for good chunk of the proofolade"<< if you really want, can explicitly declare a subtype of Stack_Positions, omitting 0 from it
12:09 apeloyee that _would_ be ugly indeed
12:10 apeloyee well it'd turn a pop from empty stack into a range-dipping eggog instantly << the reason I even suggested that 3 weeks ago
12:17 ben_vulpes https://neopg.io/
12:17 asciilifeform ben_vulpes: http://btcbase.org/log/2017-12-08#1748666
12:17 a111 Logged on 2017-12-08 13:39 asciilifeform: meanwhile, on the hannoboeck planet, https://neopg.io << usg tool marcus brinkmann proclaims 'clean rewrite of gpg' , with fanfare, spamola ( e.g. http://www.openwall.com/lists/oss-security/2017/12/08/1 ) , 'modernisms', the full shebang.
12:17 ben_vulpes shit!
12:27 asciilifeform apeloyee: afaik it isn't possible to make types 'with hole'
12:28 apeloyee 0 is at the boundary
12:28 asciilifeform so what would empty stack look like , in this variant ?
12:29 apeloyee as in my patch
12:29 apeloyee SP=0
12:30 asciilifeform this is not equiv to cursor behaviour in text editors, though. there, cursor always is pointing to a valid fillable cell
12:31 apeloyee http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771787
12:31 a111 Logged on 2018-01-17 17:03 apeloyee: the proper range for a cursor into an array (1..N) is (0.5 .. N+0.5); this is usually shifted to become (1 .. N+1) as in text editors, but no reason not to shift in the other direction, as you did, to (0..N)
12:33 asciilifeform currently seems to me that ~all~ of the possible variants, are similarly ugly
12:36 apeloyee what's ugly about my proposal? only two lines changed
12:38 asciilifeform the fact that an array is indexed by a type which has a range outside of the array's.
12:38 asciilifeform at the risk of repeating myself.
12:38 asciilifeform ideally there would be NONE of any such thing, in the entire program.
12:39 asciilifeform i.e. if you see an array reference, you ~know~ that it is valid, because of the type of the index.
12:39 asciilifeform as in the http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771768 example.
12:39 a111 Logged on 2018-01-17 16:43 asciilifeform: concretely, e.g., Dividend_Index in http://btcbase.org/patches/ffa_ch7_turbo_egyptians#L31
12:40 asciilifeform mine is also ugly, it is conceivable that somebody, some day, in a broken variant and running with -gnatp, ~will~ write to the zero cell
12:40 asciilifeform this however is preferable than writing to the return addr on the stack !
12:40 asciilifeform *preferable to
12:41 asciilifeform the fundamental riddle is whether this is an ~avoidable~ instance of http://btcbase.org/log/2016-01-21#1379603 -ism
12:41 a111 Logged on 2016-01-21 13:29 asciilifeform: 'if i make it what i think is the right size, it crashes!111'
12:42 apeloyee ~will~ write to the zero cell << why not to minus-one cell then
12:42 asciilifeform i was about to add :
12:42 asciilifeform possibly there ought to be not 1 but... 4 null cells
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12:42 asciilifeform to carry this to logical conclusion
12:43 asciilifeform ( i.e. equal to the arity of the highest-arity stack op )
12:45 asciilifeform the other open q is where to draw the line re 'somebody, some day, with mutilated ffa' .
12:45 asciilifeform because it gotta be drawn somewhere.
12:45 apeloyee doesn't gnat have a facility to control the layout of memory?
12:46 asciilifeform what do you have in mind, apeloyee ?
12:46 apeloyee put a dummy array of 4 (or whatever) elements just before the Stack
12:46 asciilifeform there is not, afaik, a way to force stack frames to be explicitly padded
12:46 asciilifeform and at any rate the right place for such a thing is in the code, rather than in the guts of the linker
12:47 asciilifeform pc arch also does not, unfortunately, give a way for userland to trap on reads/writes to specific piece of memory
12:48 asciilifeform this is a fundamental headache
12:48 apeloyee Don't Turn Off Bounds Checks.
12:48 apeloyee and there's no problem.
12:48 asciilifeform easy to say on 3GHz+ pc
12:48 asciilifeform how about when it goes in a 25mhz micro ?
12:49 asciilifeform i don't see any reason why the thing should ~rely~ on adatronicn bounds checks for correctness.
12:49 asciilifeform *adatronic
12:49 apeloyee it... doesn't?
12:49 asciilifeform well right now it doesn't
12:49 apeloyee Want(); etc
12:49 asciilifeform right
12:49 asciilifeform ideally could somehow get rid of want() tho, AND not rely on implicit bounds checks
12:50 asciilifeform AND be correct-to-naked-eye
12:50 apeloyee "five-angled heptagon"
12:50 asciilifeform maybe
12:50 asciilifeform or maybe not. i say it is an open problem.
12:53 asciilifeform ftr several different items in ffa seemed to me to be 'five-angled heptagons' (starting with how to compute the asm-less addition carries) until i solved'em
12:55 asciilifeform one way to model this process is that there is an 'ugliness budget', just like there is a cpu cycle budget, that can be 'spent' in certain ways
12:55 asciilifeform ideally so as to maximally compartmentalize and document the ugly
12:59 asciilifeform or for another example, take the ugliness and 'pointericity' of the traditional 'pivoting' form of karatsuba. which i killed by forcing all FZ bitnesses to be powers of 2.
13:00 asciilifeform incidentally there were pivot-position bugs in commonly-used karatsubas as late as the early 2000s.
13:00 asciilifeform ( prolly still are today, somewhere in ssl liquishit )
13:07 asciilifeform apeloyee: here's another idea from my notes , that would do the job : to dispense with the array representation for the stack, in favour of linked list. ada permits the definition of a 'not null' pointer type (whose non-nullity is checked on every reference) .
13:07 asciilifeform however this introduces explicit pointerism. ( though, i will add, NOT pointer-arithmetism )
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13:09 asciilifeform want() would then vanish; both stack underflow and overflow checks would be handled by the nullity check ( first cell has a null in its 'prev' slot; last cell in stack -- in its 'next' . )
13:10 asciilifeform whether this is cleaner than the existing item, i will leave up to the readers, incl. apeloyee .
13:10 asciilifeform currently it actually seems to me , to be cleaner -- in that its correctness proof is simpler, does not use arithmetic at all
13:11 asciilifeform you can trivially show that any attempt to walk under or over the stack, would have to involve a null-dereference.
13:12 asciilifeform nao that i think about it, it doesn't even have to introduce 'access types' ( pointers in ada ) , can use ordinary integers
13:13 asciilifeform so a stack cell would contain not only an FZ of the current bitness, but two boolean values, e.g. HasPrev and HasNext
13:13 asciilifeform the first cell has a false HasPrev ; the last -- a false HasNext.
13:13 asciilifeform ( i will omit the rest of the mechanism, i think it is pretty obvious )
13:22 apeloyee it's a wonder -gnatp doesn't disable nullity checks
13:24 asciilifeform doesn't seem to , in gnat '2016'
13:24 asciilifeform but this is one of the reasons why there is no escape from disasm
13:24 asciilifeform will have to see what gets removed, what -- not
13:25 asciilifeform the variant with booleans doesn't rely on non-nullities tho.
13:25 asciilifeform it's simply an arithmetic-free version of want().
13:27 asciilifeform speaking of which, could even have a stackmachine with circular ring for a stack.
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13:28 asciilifeform ( i'd rather not. but there is nothing fundamentally unusable about it )
~ 21 minutes ~
13:49 apeloyee https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gnat_ugn/Alphabetical-List-of-All-Switches.html#Alphabetical-List-of-All-Switches : "-gnateA" Check that the actual parameters of a subprogram call are not aliases of one another.
13:49 asciilifeform oh hey neato
13:49 asciilifeform apeloyee: do you know how it behaves under -gnatp ?
13:50 apeloyee no idea. just found.
13:50 asciilifeform ( other q is whether it understands overlaps, as well as exact-match aliases )
13:50 asciilifeform !!up freetlas
13:50 deedbot freetlas voiced for 30 minutes.
13:50 asciilifeform who might you be , freetlas ?
13:51 freetlas Wow, first time I see too many people in here :o
13:52 asciilifeform freetlas: you did not answer the question
13:52 freetlas asciilifeform: Just a person who likes to read trilema from time to time :)
13:52 apeloyee from above: "Check that the actual parameters of a subprogram call are not aliases of one another. To qualify as aliasing, the actuals must denote objects of a composite type, their memory locations must be identical or overlapping, and at least one of the corresponding formal parameters must be of mode OUT or IN OUT. "
13:52 asciilifeform apeloyee: neato. gotta wonder how this is implemented tho.
13:53 apeloyee this is gpl gnat tho
13:53 asciilifeform i can't picture how without a megatonne of conditionaljumps. but maybe just failure of my imagination.
13:53 apeloyee of unknown version
13:54 apeloyee nuffin wrong with conditional jumps, if one destination aborts.
13:54 asciilifeform from leakage pov yes
13:54 asciilifeform from pipeline-blowing pov -- expensive.
↖
13:54 apeloyee prediction would be perfect
13:55 asciilifeform if gcc actually puts in the 'jump-likely' . currently i have nfi whether it does.
~ 16 minutes ~
14:11 Covale` http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771610 - no, not mine, I don´t have one. Neither do I have that cup, but it´s a pretty decent Lenin nonetheless
14:11 a111 Logged on 2018-01-17 01:29 mircea_popescu: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771435 << hey, is that your blog then ?
~ 15 minutes ~
14:26 BingoBoingo Now that was a wasted voice
14:27 apeloyee http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-05#1765560 << this looks to be the only safe way. asciilifeform : don't you think that's insane?
14:27 a111 Logged on 2018-01-05 23:30 asciilifeform: trinque: if you really hate files, you are welcome to make the whole proggy 1 file
14:28 BingoBoingo It gets 30 minutes with the audience, remarks on the size on the audience, and then silence
14:28 asciilifeform apeloyee: waiwat
14:28 asciilifeform i must've missed something
14:31 apeloyee a vpatch's purpose is twofold. 1) to provide a way to construct some files based on some antedecent files, whose hashes are given. 2) to take some responsibility about the entire tree. but the signature on a vpatch doesn't fix the state of the tree; it is defined implicitly by antedecent patches, which are liable to change at any time ("regrinding") and thereby change some files not...
↖
14:31 apeloyee ...referenced in a particular vpatch
14:32 apeloyee hence the hash-manifest proposals
14:32 asciilifeform apeloyee: the 'liable to change' thing was very much NOT part of my orig design for v.
↖
14:32 apeloyee really it's CVS over again
14:32 asciilifeform imho it is an abuse.
14:33 asciilifeform apeloyee: some of the 'cvsism' is deliberate -- cvs made collaborative writing harder by accident, we -- on purpose !11
14:34 apeloyee files are NOT INDEPENDENT. despite CVS and v pretending they are. this is a problem. you could have required some form of cryptographic commitment to either the tree state or even the antedecent patches themselves, but didn't
↖
14:35 asciilifeform apeloyee: see the quite 'flammable' log from that thread. i put the burden of correct operation ~100% on the human operator.
↖
14:36 asciilifeform apeloyee: trinque and mircea_popescu would like to put more of it on the machine. i haven't with what to dissuade them, it is a philosophical q, not even technical.
14:36 asciilifeform and yes it is entirely true that files-are-not-guaranteedly-independent.
14:37 apeloyee do you advocate the brick "lisp machine", too?
14:37 asciilifeform hey it's the only kind i have nao!11
14:37 asciilifeform ( asciilifeform traded his lispm for two last-made lispm single-ic cpu... )
14:39 apeloyee well, your point seems to be specifically that work which can be done by machine is shifted onto a human. this is insane.
14:40 asciilifeform as i described in the linked thread, forcing the entire program under the antecedent hasher is not free
14:40 asciilifeform it severely constrains the kind of things you can do without manual surgery
14:41 asciilifeform so it is not correct to say 'you made the man do what the machine could do.' rather, lightened the work for operator for one kind of operation, and made heavier -- other kind.
14:43 BingoBoingo And in other news, a police car exploded near the Brazilian border https://www.elobservador.com.uy/bomberos-explosion-auto-policial-fue-intencional-n1160744
14:43 asciilifeform BingoBoingo: and on most days they do not ?
14:43 asciilifeform fenómenos que "no tiene antecedentes" en el país << orly?
↖
14:43 BingoBoingo On most days they do not explode on this side of the border.
14:44 asciilifeform ( it borders, e.g., columbia. nothing exploded there ?0 )
14:44 BingoBoingo The closest thing so far was they time an Israeli embassy worker was busted with a bomb or fake bomb near the WTC
14:44 BingoBoingo asciilifeform: Uruguay pointedly does not border Columbia. Other side of the Continent
14:45 asciilifeform i was speaking of brazil
14:45 BingoBoingo Ah
14:46 BingoBoingo Anyways Artigas is about as far north as you can get in Uruguay.
14:47 apeloyee that's a spurious objection. one need not to sign an antedecent state, one needs to sign a RESULTING state. to expand on http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771900 , you're free to pick individual files from wherever, possibly several different trees, but there needs to be a tree hash in the _leaf_ patch. and it MUST match the resulting tree (under the principle that patch author takes the...
14:47 a111 Logged on 2018-01-17 19:31 apeloyee: a vpatch's purpose is twofold. 1) to provide a way to construct some files based on some antedecent files, whose hashes are given. 2) to take some responsibility about the entire tree. but the signature on a vpatch doesn't fix the state of the tree; it is defined implicitly by antedecent patches, which are liable to change at any time ("regrinding") and thereby change some files not...
14:47 apeloyee ...responsibility for the resultant tree state).. otherwise it's unclear what one signs.
14:50 trinque they're equivalent neh? signed antecedent state or signed resulting state + fact that the patch is signed
14:51 trinque and in the case of signed antecedent state, don't have to press first to know if you could
14:52 apeloyee well, a hash is not the same as the signature, but otherwise yes.
14:53 apeloyee but there can be several of them
14:53 apeloyee for merging
14:53 trinque pretty obvious I'm saying signed hash, i.e. hash is in the signed vpatch
14:54 asciilifeform trinque is right tho, they are equivalent
14:54 asciilifeform and in both cases, the ability to explicitly mark subsystems as independent ( e.g. a readme.txt being independent from doesallthework.adb ) is lost.
14:55 asciilifeform iirc mircea_popescu's argument was that it is wrong to say that they could ~ever~ be properly independent. and that if they could be shown to be independent, they ought to be separate v-trees.
↖
14:56 asciilifeform i don't have a good counter-argument to this.
14:56 asciilifeform however it DOES mean even ~more~ work for folx using v, than ever before. and not less.
↖
14:56 asciilifeform potentially exponentially more.
14:56 asciilifeform for multi-author projects, that is.
14:56 asciilifeform for single-author, e.g. ffa, nothing really changes.
14:58 trinque asciilifeform: to see if I can restate your opinion back to you, if I edit (as single author) both readme.txt and doesallthework.adb in separate vpatches, your view is I combine those into a single vpatch, if I want to build atop both in a new vpatch?
14:59 asciilifeform trinque: under classical v, or trinqueian ?
14:59 trinque classical.
15:00 asciilifeform under classical, you can grab antecedents from any trees you want, by copying files, aha
15:00 asciilifeform as i did in trb.
15:01 asciilifeform so answ to trinque's q is yes
15:04 asciilifeform !!up fromloper
15:04 deedbot fromloper voiced for 30 minutes.
15:04 trinque then we are closer than it appeared in the long thread. I proposed being able to name arbitrary required antecedents in a vpatch's header, and this appears equivalent in effect to copying the file in whole.
15:04 fromloper hello
15:04 fromloper asciilifeform: someone uploaded "I-Machine Architecture Specification" to Bitsavers three days ago, I thought you might find it interesting: http://www.bitsavers.org/pdf/symbolics/I_Machine/I-Machine%20Architecture%20Specification.pdf
↖
15:04 fromloper it's more complete than the previously published documents on the Ivory
15:05 asciilifeform fromloper: pretty sure i've seen this before
15:05 fromloper there were older versions of three chapters from this documents on Bitsavers, but not the whole thing
15:05 apeloyee point is, the situation when you can replace one of the patches with figurative "format c:" and 'v' will be none the wiser as long as the file is not touched by later patches is insane
15:05 asciilifeform fromloper: it is not a complete arch description, you cannot write a working emulator with it ( or even make the existing snap4 not-crash )
15:05 asciilifeform fromloper: i'ma look. ty
15:06 fromloper did you succeed in scanning the chip at Zeptobars?
15:06 asciilifeform apeloyee: there is not a mechanical solution to preventing someone from 'putting in format c:' proverbially
15:06 asciilifeform fromloper: that was phf's plan. afaik he has not, as of yet.
15:07 asciilifeform fromloper: i shopped around in commercial labs; the best bid was in the neighbourhood of 25,000 usd.
15:07 apeloyee when you sign a tarball, the signature is not transferrable to anything else
15:07 asciilifeform fromloper: that's where it stopped. i do not have 25k usd to use on ivory die photo.
15:08 asciilifeform apeloyee: observe , i do not actually disagree .
15:08 fromloper I see, hopefully phf will have more luck with Zeptobars
15:08 asciilifeform apeloyee: trinqueian / mircea_popescuine vtron is arguably The Right Thing. my observation is that it may be a 50kg sword.
15:09 asciilifeform fromloper: i only have two 'ivory' chips, and ideally would like to leave one intact , for active test . iirc phf also has 2 to use.
15:10 asciilifeform so i'ma save mine for proper commercial lab. but that means potentially forever. maybe whoever takes it off my corpse, can get it photo'd.
15:10 apeloyee "may be a 50kg sword" << doesn't seem to be. can be retrofitted into an existing design. as i said above "there needs to be a tree hash in the _leaf_ patch. and it MUST match the resulting tree"
15:11 asciilifeform retrofitted yes
15:11 asciilifeform but i am speaking of ~use~.
15:11 fromloper asciilifeform: if I remember, you wanted to hook this intact chip to some emulation of Ivory's life support
15:11 asciilifeform fromloper: correct
15:11 asciilifeform fromloper: currently however i do not even know where the power supply pins are, much less bus addressing, i/o, clock, etc
15:11 asciilifeform or the necessary timings.
15:11 asciilifeform ( or what it expects to find on the bus, or almost anything else )
↖
15:12 asciilifeform i do not have, nor ever had, a working 'ivory' of any description.
15:12 fromloper VLM is not very informative for this purpose, unfortunately
15:13 asciilifeform fromloper: correct. almost totally useless.
15:13 apeloyee I proposed being able to name arbitrary required antecedents << also probably needs a mechanism to declare "there are no other files in the tree"
↖
15:14 asciilifeform apeloyee: look at the trb tree, and picture what the mass of the patches would have been, if this requirement had been in effect when i made it.
↖
15:14 asciilifeform ( and yes mircea_popescu's answer was 'shuddup and suck it' . which is very easily said when you ain't the one sucking it )
15:16 asciilifeform fromloper: i'll confirm, this is a larger and moar detailed document than old one.
15:16 apeloyee a hash of the entire tree doesn't take much
15:17 fromloper at the very least, the description of the instruction set is much more complete, all the opcodes are listed and no blanks at all
15:17 fromloper there is a whole section on the virtual memory
15:18 asciilifeform neat
15:19 fromloper though it's still an early version of the architecture, revision 0 if I understand correctly
15:19 fromloper the last one is rev 5
15:19 fromloper which was designed for VLM exclusively
15:24 fromloper asciilifeform: I have noticed that some of the former Symbolics employees are fairly active on Twitter, like https://twitter.com/swmckay (one of the developers of VLM) and https://twitter.com/KalmanReti , do you think it is possible to pry any information out of them?
↖
15:25 apeloyee !#s whisperers
15:25 a111 18 results for "whisperers", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=whisperers
15:26 asciilifeform fromloper: possibly. my track record for prying information out of bolixologists is ~0 so far, however.
15:26 asciilifeform somehow we cannot find common language, i have nfi.
15:28 asciilifeform fromloper: looking at the linked doc, it is indeed very useful, now we have maybe 80% of the necessary info, instead of ~50%.
15:29 fromloper asciilifeform: very good, I'm glad I brought it to your attention
15:29 asciilifeform http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771995 << in these pages however all i see is claptrap re 'racism of trump', 0 about lispm
15:29 a111 Logged on 2018-01-17 20:24 fromloper: asciilifeform: I have noticed that some of the former Symbolics employees are fairly active on Twitter, like https://twitter.com/swmckay (one of the developers of VLM) and https://twitter.com/KalmanReti , do you think it is possible to pry any information out of them?
15:30 trinque pretty common to end up LARPing in retirement, even if one lived as a man, unfortunately
15:30 asciilifeform the unfortunate bit is that reti et al seem intent to take their seekritz to their graves, because they are 'law-abiding' and are still honouring their nda to the dead hand of the dead man
15:30 asciilifeform trinque: aha
15:32 fromloper yeah, somehow a lot of potentially interesting people on social media end up mostly posting this kind of crap
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15:32 asciilifeform think, somebody, somewhere, has the source code to ns. and the ns netlist , with comments, to the ivory.
15:32 asciilifeform he ain't sharing.
15:32 asciilifeform somebody shares ? i'll read, even if he also goes on re 'racism'
15:32 asciilifeform but somehow never happens.
15:33 asciilifeform somebody , maybe same old man, has a bookcase full of typewritten design apocrypha, memoes, etc. from ivory group. he ain't sharing either.
15:34 asciilifeform out of fear of usg ? or from vanity ( he thinks it can be sold for millions ? to whom ? ) he is burning his life's work. i have nfi why.
15:34 asciilifeform !!up fromloper
15:34 deedbot fromloper voiced for 30 minutes.
15:34 fromloper this document refers to Dave Moon's files several times; I've tried to find any public presence of Moon on the net, maybe a mail address - found nothing
15:35 asciilifeform funnily enuff a Dave Moon ran for election to some city dogcatcher post , not far from where i live. but on examination seems to be different d00d.
15:35 asciilifeform the original may well be dead
15:35 asciilifeform weinreb died a few yrs ago
15:35 fromloper Moon had an interview with Azul Systems' people in 2008
15:36 fromloper that's the last of him I found
15:36 fromloper https://blog.h2o.ai/2008/11/a-brief-conversation-with-david-moon/
15:37 asciilifeform i recall this
15:37 asciilifeform and i haven't seen him anywhere since, either
15:40 asciilifeform http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/MMD/HTML/index.html << apparently was at least alive in 2016
15:40 asciilifeform ( and same moon, e.g. http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/PLOT3/ )
15:40 asciilifeform 'Comments and criticisms to dave underscore moon atsign alum dot mit dot edu. ' << anybody tried ?
15:41 asciilifeform and now that we're on subj , where is, e.g., r. d. greenblatt ?
15:41 asciilifeform tom knight ?
15:43 fromloper so there is at least one possible address, gotta try it
↖
15:43 fromloper Tom Knight is working with biologists
15:44 asciilifeform that was last i knew aha
15:44 asciilifeform 0 to do with lispm, for ~3 decades
15:44 asciilifeform but apparently alive.
15:45 fromloper Richard Greenblatt helped with this in 2006 https://projects.csail.mit.edu/films/aifilms/AIFilms.html
15:45 asciilifeform and yes the ones still alive, all work ~somewhere~, symbolics did not make anybody aside from the yacht brahmins rich
15:46 asciilifeform ( in usa for some reason it is traditional for ceo to be paid mega-bonus even when the company tanks )
15:46 fromloper afaik Symbolics was changing CEOs like gloves
15:46 asciilifeform it was
15:46 asciilifeform whole buncha upper crust parasites gotta be buttered, apparently.
15:47 asciilifeform to be fair the company was not really a honest commercial co, moar like one of those unofficial usg research institutes, they proliferated under reagan and died with him
↖ ↖
15:48 asciilifeform thinkingmachines co was another such. died same way.
15:48 asciilifeform there is an entire graveyard of these; it simply so happens that i am only interested in the lispm-flavoured ones
15:48 asciilifeform ( where i know for a fact that they Had Something )
15:49 asciilifeform for all i know, the one and only path to e.g. a room-temperature supercon, was found at one of the reagan scamola firms, and died with it, also. i simply do not know about it.
15:51 fromloper I also wanted to ask, did you figure out how to launch NS in VLM? I'm getting some Xlib error when I try to
15:51 asciilifeform nope.
15:51 asciilifeform i suspect that the copy on the Official genera disk, never worked.
15:52 asciilifeform but i never tried it under alpha, gotta try.
15:52 asciilifeform and iirc phf has a working ivory -- worth trying there also
15:52 fromloper I wonder if it's going to ask for a license key like Macsyma on the same disk does
15:53 asciilifeform nfi
15:53 asciilifeform there is, theoretically, a working disasm
15:57 asciilifeform fromloper: in re ivoryology, another unknown is the fep. virtually nothing is publicly known about the fep.
15:58 asciilifeform ( for n00bz to the subj -- fep was an entire comp, mc68k, embedded inside bolix lispm, handled i/o and certain aspects of eggogology )
15:58 fromloper Ivory still has mc68k?
15:58 fromloper in its FEP
15:58 asciilifeform afaik the standalone ones, did
15:59 asciilifeform the 'macivory' did not, used a proggy running on the mac.
15:59 asciilifeform ( a 68k mac.. )
15:59 fromloper is VLM's life support built out of that proggy?
15:59 asciilifeform nominally.
16:01 fromloper http://archive.is/zw03T << Rainer Joswig speaks of some secret team maintaining the emulator, I wonder if he means http://btcbase.org/log/2017-08-21#1701489
16:01 a111 Logged on 2017-08-21 14:43 phf: i spent (mostly another whisperer and myself did) on getting vlm stable, and i'm unconvinced that some of the issues we encountered were purely "buggy vlm". there is, for example, a crash in floating point instruction that happens when you load document examiner on stock piratebay opengenera. i have no explanation for it still, because vlm code ~seems to do the right thing~. there are other similar instances
16:02 asciilifeform fromloper: i actually do not know anything re who, if anyone, maintains. aside from phf's admission to having a private fork, linked above.
16:02 asciilifeform ( last i knew, phf did not publish his changes )
16:02 asciilifeform i do not know why not.
16:03 asciilifeform this is a q that only he can answer, supposing he feels like answering.
16:03 fromloper well, he doesn't for some reason
16:03 asciilifeform re fp, i'll observe that bolix used a weitek fp unit
16:03 asciilifeform similar in fact to the one in everybody's old 486
16:03 asciilifeform and that if emulator's does not behave exactly same -- it will lead to barf, yes
16:04 asciilifeform and who even knows if weitek is fully documented somewhere.
16:04 asciilifeform ( for all i know, bolix relied on some undocumented behaviour of it. )
16:04 asciilifeform !!up fromloper
16:04 deedbot fromloper voiced for 30 minutes.
16:17 asciilifeform fromloper: currently i suspect that many, possibly majority, of serious bolix collectors, ~do not want~ there to be an accurate emulator.
↖
16:17 fromloper I've read the whisperers discussion here, seems to be plausible
16:17 asciilifeform i -- want. and this is why by and large they do not talk to me. they know about my www, they knew where to find me. they also know that i will publicly and immediately leak any bolixologial document that i am given. and want to make emulator. and for this, i suspect, they do not talk to me.
16:18 asciilifeform this is a hypothesis. so far my best one.
16:19 asciilifeform some people spent $10k's on their collections of bolixiana. and imagine that these will become worthless if an accurate fpgalogical emulator appears. and for all i know , this is true. i simply don't care.
↖
16:20 asciilifeform the ones who hoard secrets because they imagine that they have a ticket to being part of some future commercial revival of bolix, however -- those are idiots.
16:20 asciilifeform there will be no second coming of commercial bolix.
16:21 fromloper I'm curious what John C. Mallery intends to do with his property, other than collect support cheques
16:21 asciilifeform i asked this q here years ago, and to this day have no answer of any kind.
16:21 asciilifeform i suspect that there is no plan, the nsa cheques pay for his yachts and that's it.
16:22 asciilifeform and when he dies they will pay for his sons' yachts. etc
16:22 fromloper Kalman Reti said 4 years ago: "The problem is that the Symbolics IP is now owned by John Mallery; he has stated he has plans for making it available but so far (several years) has not yet done so."
16:23 asciilifeform right, why would he. why give away yacht.
16:23 diana_coman !!rate Covale` 1 euloran noob; found at least some of his way around
16:23 deedbot Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/qC1SN/?raw=true
16:23 diana_coman !!v 7AC227FA1D46917538127FAB0D4C5C45FF8064838BE08A92A589F00E4374C08F
16:23 deedbot diana_coman rated Covale` 1 << euloran noob; found at least some of his way around
16:24 Covale` diana_coman ty
16:24 asciilifeform fromloper: if he gave it out, potentially someone else could bid on the support contract ( under american law, all contracts are theoretically publicly biddable . lockheed et al simply contrive to set up situation where no one else ~can~ perform a given contract )
16:24 asciilifeform * all gov contracts
↖
16:26 fromloper asciilifeform: maybe he'll give up if something happens to DKS and Kalman Reti so he'll be out of people capable to do the job, both of them are rather old
16:26 asciilifeform fromloper: i suspect not. because the 'support' is really ceremonial
16:26 asciilifeform neither dks nor reti are really needed, to provide this 'support'.
16:27 asciilifeform otherwise mallery would have long ago hired a 'spare' or two, and afaik he never has.
16:27 asciilifeform the racket is not , as far as i can tell, intended to outlive the current participants.
16:28 asciilifeform ( and if it is, it is by playing usg piano correctly, rather than by training replacement retis )
16:31 * asciilifeform bbl
16:33 trinque if so, how did folks this corrupt build anything worth having?
↖
16:35 asciilifeform !!up fromloper
16:35 deedbot fromloper voiced for 30 minutes.
16:35 asciilifeform trinque: by being 40 yrs younger, lol
16:35 fromloper Mallery didn't do much for Symbolics before he bought it, outside of supplying it with CL-HTTP
16:36 asciilifeform cl-http was notorious for its fuckyou-license
16:36 asciilifeform but i'll admit that i know very, very little about mallery ( almost nothing is publicly known about him, he is an academic but not many publications in his name )
16:37 asciilifeform what little clue there is, points to his having been an nsa asset since youth.
16:38 asciilifeform trinque: see also http://btcbase.org/log/2014-03-21#571209 oldie
16:38 a111 Logged on 2014-03-21 04:58 mircea_popescu: understand that the most economic way to run the economy - now as during 1614 - is to just turn off all machinery, lock all warehouses and bury the key
16:38 diana_coman http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-13#1770368 <- mod6 did you publish this anywhere? it seems I might even have another test-case for it.. (version 99994 dies on it complaining that .vpatch is invalid)
16:38 a111 Logged on 2018-01-13 21:52 mod6: Lords and Ladies of The Most Serene Republic, I have created a blog post outlining the behavior changes in 99993. Please take a look and consider these changes. Let me know if you have any comments or questions! Thanks in advance. http://www.mod6.net/2018/99993/99993-changes.html
16:39 fromloper Mallery's project at MIT: http://www.ai.mit.edu/projects/iiip/home-page.html
16:39 asciilifeform 'This project ran from October 1, 1993 to October 1, 1997.'
16:39 asciilifeform what he is being paid for TODAY, is not known afaik.
16:39 fromloper he is talking at "cyber security" conferences
16:40 fromloper https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IwRg5UUdlK4
16:40 asciilifeform d00d dun look so old. expect another 30-40 yrs of the dog sitting in the manger.
16:41 asciilifeform 'Cyber space is an increasingly risky discourse and therefore will inevitably be securitised.' << exactly what i said: usg stuffed shirt.
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16:41 asciilifeform observe sponsor 'raytheon'.
16:41 fromloper he's also on twitter, might nag him about it for laughs https://twitter.com/jcmallery_cyber
16:42 asciilifeform why not also nag the statueofliberty, or washington monument.
16:42 asciilifeform 'John Mallery @jcmallery_cyber 25 Dec 2017 Declinism is a psyop of adversaries...it was spread before during the Vietnam war.' << ahahahaha gold
↖ ↖
16:44 asciilifeform cheap nsa whore.
16:45 mod6 diana_coman: you mean the patch for 99993? yeah, i pasted it in here.... lemme look for it quick.
16:45 asciilifeform hey fromloper , consider registering with deedbot ?
16:45 asciilifeform !!help
16:45 deedbot http://deedbot.org/help.html
16:45 asciilifeform fromloper: i'll rate you
16:46 fromloper asciilifeform: alright, I'll do it
16:50 asciilifeform amazing 'морда просит кирпича' on mallery.
16:50 asciilifeform !#s face begs
16:50 a111 3 results for "face begs", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=face%20begs
16:50 asciilifeform i was watching like usual with no audio. if anyone thinks i misses something thereby -- plox to write in.
16:51 diana_coman uh oh, it seems asciilifeform's v misbehaves too: when pressing a leaf that has genesis as antecedent it presses ALSO all other descendants of genesis from what I can tell
16:51 asciilifeform diana_coman: it does, this was discussed.
16:51 asciilifeform afaik the only correct vtron currently existing , in this respect, is phf's.
16:51 diana_coman ah, I missed that then, I thought yours was grabbing leaf by leaf too
16:52 asciilifeform nope. phf afaik has the 1 and only mechanically-correct vtron. mod6 has a prototype of the 2nd.
16:52 asciilifeform ( i have not tried yet )
16:52 diana_coman k, I'll try that as soon as mod6 finds the patch
16:52 * asciilifeform brb
16:55 mod6 how do i search the logs for all the lines that I have said?
16:55 trinque !#s from:mod6
16:55 a111 24335 results for "from:mod6", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Amod6
16:55 diana_coman mod6, from:mod6 ?
16:55 diana_coman ha, super-fast trinque !
16:56 * trinque blows on keyboard
16:57 mod6 ooooh, i was doing "from: mod6" and getting very strange results.
16:57 mod6 thx!
16:57 mod6 diana_coman: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/GwImt/?raw=true
16:58 diana_coman yay, thank you mod6 !
16:58 mod6 np. use that to patch 99994.
16:58 mod6 up to 99993
16:59 * diana_coman goes to try
17:01 fromloper I'm going to join as amberglint now
17:01 trinque !!up amberglint
17:01 deedbot amberglint voiced for 30 minutes.
17:01 amberglint !!register http://wotpaste.cascadianhacker.com/pastes/tpxEH/?raw=true
17:01 deedbot A7E708351AF14BB5C8B48DA323264C245A4563B8 registered as amberglint.
17:04 diana_coman apparently patch worked, v reports now new version
17:09 trinque !!v A52E78CBF699C414F662B5E4849A1D843B5BB7B0FF282D1AD0622FEC36560AF5
17:09 deedbot trinque rated amberglint 1 << new blood
17:09 trinque amberglint: try to self-voice in pm with deedbot now
17:10 asciilifeform !!rate amberglint 1 bolixologist
17:10 deedbot Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/VtIDe/?raw=true
17:11 asciilifeform !!v C119442E4976802D6E83E0D0AFA77098FD4FCB02AEAB5DC0DC965DCBF0A748B2
17:11 deedbot asciilifeform rated amberglint 1 << bolixologist
17:12 amberglint it's working, thank you
17:12 asciilifeform welcome, amberglint .
17:13 asciilifeform amberglint: want to say a bit re where you came from, how you found asciilifeform's www, etc ?
17:13 asciilifeform ( or found #t first ? or other ? )
17:13 * shinohai wonders if he should rate ben_vulpes as "bollocksologist" due to his recent trap encounters .....
17:14 asciilifeform lol
17:15 amberglint asciilifeform: I can't remember how I found your www, I'm reading it since 2012 or so; I found trilema.com from one of your articles
17:16 amberglint I'm a software engineer, live in Russia
17:21 asciilifeform neato.
17:21 amberglint I was reading the logs for a while, thought about joining you earlier but felt a bit intimidated to be honest
17:21 asciilifeform amberglint: i assume you already know about the log ( btcbase.org/log & elsewhere ) then.
17:22 amberglint btcbase.org is the logotron of my choice
17:23 asciilifeform it was made by phf , address all complaints to him!1!
17:23 amberglint haven't had any issues with it, it's very handy
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17:23 asciilifeform it is.
17:25 asciilifeform phf also from ru; and iirc so is apeloyee; asciilifeform from old su but marooned in usa; mircea_popescu speaks (more than he is willing to admit, lol) ru; possibly other folx, tuned in but still lurking, also.
17:27 amberglint yeah, I caught almost everyone ru-speaking in the logs though I didn't know about apeloyee
17:27 asciilifeform he's a very clever maths d00d. logs in every other week or so, nitpicks re fine points of ffa.
17:27 asciilifeform since iirc july of '17 or so.
17:28 asciilifeform !!born apeloyee
17:28 asciilifeform !#born apeloyee
17:28 a111 2017-09-13 <apeloyee> would O(N^2) modular multiplication be too slow?
17:28 a111 http://btcbase.org/log/2017-09-13#1713496
17:28 asciilifeform sept. apparently.
17:28 asciilifeform but iirc he existed as a 'fromloper' prev.
17:29 asciilifeform !#s from:fromloper ffa
17:29 a111 0 results for "from:fromloper ffa", http://btcbase.org/log-search?q=from%3Afromloper%20ffa
17:29 asciilifeform hm.
17:29 amberglint plenty of math-educated people here
17:29 asciilifeform (possibly he had other temp name, i cannot now recall.)
17:29 asciilifeform aha. mircea_popescu also at one time was a maths man.
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17:30 asciilifeform and diana_coman , and possibly others.
17:31 asciilifeform and i know of at least 1 still-lurking d00d, who was. and who knows who else.
17:39 amberglint asciilifeform: have you read "Digital Design and Computer Architecture" by D. and S. Harris? I'm using it (in ru print translation) as my hardware handbook and I'm curious if you have any opinion on it
17:40 asciilifeform i have an old 'for india' eng edition here.
17:40 asciilifeform unremarkable schoolbook; slightly better imho than hennessey's
17:41 asciilifeform i do not like vhdl; and do not see the point of 'systemverilog' (vs classical); but these are my personal prefs
17:45 amberglint btw, one of Ivory and NS designers, Neil Weste, wrote his own schoolbook: http://pages.hmc.edu/harris/cmosvlsi/4e/index.html
↖ ↖
17:46 amberglint with the same Harris
17:47 asciilifeform neato.
17:47 asciilifeform amberglint: do you have it ? anything unusual, ivoryistic inside it ?
17:48 asciilifeform the demo chapter seems to have a very, very detailed discussion of machine arithmetic.
17:48 asciilifeform with quite recent lit cited.
17:48 amberglint asciilifeform: I have a pdf somewhere, a quick look didn't notice anything Ivory-specific
17:49 amberglint it should be on gen.lib.rus.ec
17:53 asciilifeform i have a similar item , http://btcbase.org/log/2017-05-16#1657241 , it proved to be of very, very limited help for ffa , the constraint of the pc arch limits the use of fancy adders etc
17:53 a111 Logged on 2017-05-16 22:10 asciilifeform: unrelatedly, 'finite precision number systems and arithmetic' (kornerup & matula, cambridge press) is mega-b00k, the only one i've found on subj that is NOT a mere plagiarism of knuth, has useful algos for e.g. carry-free ops, hardwarizations
17:53 asciilifeform ultimately i ended up using nothing at all from it.
17:54 asciilifeform but if i were designing asic -- yes, would use.
17:55 asciilifeform and weste's , too. it seems to contain many usable goodies for asicist.
17:56 asciilifeform unfortunately i do not have any way to make asic. as for fpga, none exist of the necessary size. ( see e.g. http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-04#1764242 )
17:56 a111 Logged on 2018-01-04 20:06 asciilifeform: in other 'news', it is apparently impossible to fit even ONE 4096-bit adder into an ice40-8k ( the largest in the series )
~ 35 minutes ~
18:31 amberglint asciilifeform: do you know what this language is? http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/MMD/MMD.lunar looks like Moon's own invention
18:33 asciilifeform amberglint: PLOT ( http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/PLOT/ , http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/PLOT3/ . )
18:33 asciilifeform seemed to me, to be an infix lisp, sorta like 'dylan'
18:33 asciilifeform ( why he did this ? i do not know )
18:33 amberglint he renamed it to Lunar, apparently
18:33 amberglint no one else seems to know or care about it, judging by google's output
18:34 asciilifeform http://users.rcn.com/david-moon/PLOT3/page-1.html << see also.
18:34 asciilifeform i read the linked manual in '08 and will admit that i did not find it very interesting. it is the same kind of dead end as dylan.
18:34 asciilifeform ( and if anyone began to use it, would prolly end as same kind of catastrophe as e.g. ruby . )
~ 2 hours 27 minutes ~
21:02 deedbot http://www.loper-os.org/?p=2146 << Loper OS - Rodenticide with the Seiko DPU414 Tape Printer.
~ 2 hours 8 minutes ~
23:11 mircea_popescu you know ftr trb node state of blockpool has improved tremendously.
23:12 * asciilifeform noticed
23:12 mircea_popescu cool deal.
23:12 asciilifeform and ohai mircea_popescu !
23:12 asciilifeform saw any crocodiles ?
23:13 mircea_popescu actually... just macaws. lots and lots and lots of macaws.
23:16 asciilifeform neato.
23:19 danielpbarron !!rate TomServo 1 fg customer
23:19 deedbot Get your OTP: http://p.bvulpes.com/pastes/7LV3i/?raw=true
23:25 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771636 << i have nfi what a binace is and i see no problem with random numbers fiatists assign to bitcoin fluctuating ~randomly.
23:25 a111 Logged on 2018-01-17 11:06 Techman: mircea_popescu: what isy our take on bitcoin dropping below 10K (at least on binance)
23:26 mircea_popescu o check it out asciilifeform "cardano" the coin is up 25%!!1
23:27 mircea_popescu "WORTH ALMOST TWO BILLION"!!11
23:27 asciilifeform lol!!
23:27 asciilifeform how is mpexcoin doing tho.
23:27 asciilifeform and bbeterium.
23:27 mircea_popescu https://github.com/input-output-hk/cardano-sl/ << for ulterior lulz
23:28 asciilifeform haskell no less
23:28 mircea_popescu "Cardano is a decentralised public blockchain and cryptocurrency project and is fully open source. Cardano is developing a smart contract platform which seeks to deliver more advanced features than any protocol previously developed. It is the first blockchain platform to evolve out of a scientific philosophy and a research-first driven approach. Thedevelopment team consists of a large global collective of expert engineers and
23:28 mircea_popescu researchers."
23:29 asciilifeform https://cardanofoundation.org also, didjaknow!
23:29 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771642 << i don't see a problem with it necessarily, but it's not clear what may hide under rock #2. try and see i guess ?
23:29 a111 Logged on 2018-01-17 13:09 esthlos: http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-16#1771055 << My thought was to scrap the current client in favor of a customized one, with eucrypt protocol as the backbone. Is this 1. not what you want, or 2. a bad idea?
23:30 asciilifeform 'The registered office of Cardano Foundation is: Cardano Stiftung, Gubelstrasse 11, 6300 Zug, Switzerland.' classy.
23:30 mircea_popescu asciilifeform gotta have a foundation like tits gotta have a boar.
23:30 asciilifeform verily.
23:36 mircea_popescu crypto ag is zug-erstrasse, 6312 gubel, swizerland.
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23:36 mircea_popescu geddit ?
23:36 asciilifeform lol!
23:37 asciilifeform holyfuq it ACTUALLY is..
23:37 asciilifeform per https://www.crypto.ch/en/contact
23:37 asciilifeform pretty great.
23:37 mircea_popescu :)
23:37 asciilifeform a+++ trololol
23:38 mircea_popescu they just play trivial pursuit see.
23:38 mircea_popescu or what's the one with the mixing.
23:38 mircea_popescu o right. SYMMETRICAL CIPHER.
23:40 asciilifeform to think, somebody sat, sewed this.
23:41 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771644 << nah not at all. just proposed what might've been an easy entry point. you dun like it you dun have to.
23:41 a111 Logged on 2018-01-17 13:15 esthlos: Rereading, seems clear that you want eulora's graphics engine.
23:41 asciilifeform previously i had it filed under perlisms.
23:41 mircea_popescu asciilifeform it rather looks like the elaboratest trollcoin so far.
23:41 asciilifeform afaik gold star champion , aha.
23:42 mircea_popescu oh, damn, remember days of GoldStar
23:48 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771704 << quite evidently that.
23:48 a111 Logged on 2018-01-17 15:30 asciilifeform: has apeloyee found a specific instance where it can be made to eggog ? or is this a hypothetical 'once less clueful people start changing things' observation ?
23:56 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771717 << this is a great win, i'm glad he stuck with it.
23:56 a111 Logged on 2018-01-17 15:33 asciilifeform: really all routines oughta behave consistently in re input-overwrite.
23:56 mircea_popescu saying "well i can't protect car from usage of idiots" is one thing, but having the gas and break pedals not ever interchange is the other thing.
23:58 mircea_popescu http://btcbase.org/log/2018-01-17#1771729 << only sorta.
23:58 a111 Logged on 2018-01-17 15:39 apeloyee: does gnat provide a facility to check aliasing at runtime?
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